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Ep 2.9- Home Is Where The ART Is
14 Plays25 days ago
ART is alive and Murderbot gets to stop running through the stages of grief! Problem is it stopped on Anger, which it has every right to tbh. Ryn and Sam talk ART and Murderbot's relationship (and relationships in general), trusting kids to handle difficult topics, modern "AI" vs sci-fi AI, and statistics!
Covers chapters 8-13 of The Murderbot Diaries: Networt Effect by Martha Wells (2020)
Recommended
Transcript
New Semester Excitement
00:00:00
Speaker
Also, my semester starts next week. e ah Which is very fun. It'll be cool to start school because I haven't been in a while. But also, ooh, I'm starting school again.
00:00:12
Speaker
who even just part-time. You should go to Target and buy a bunch of pencils for 10 cents just for fun. I should get like a notebook. That's probably a good idea. Well, if you want the most ridiculous, over-engineered, hyper-specific notebook recommendations...
00:00:31
Speaker
somebody has developed an interest in stationery and knows lot about very specific types of stationery i might steal one from work uh like a lab notebook from work for the uh like first class and then use that once i have the syllabus to be like what the fuck do I need because I don't actually have any information yet it's like oh yes this is a stats class fuck do I need for the stats class no idea do people still use graphing calculators I remember needing a graphing calculator in high school stats
00:01:07
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. i haven't been in school since before AI was a twinkle in some Silicon Valley bro's eye So i don't I don't know what going to school in this era looks like.
00:01:22
Speaker
You're going to find out. By the time this episode comes out, you will have you will have already found out. I will have already found out. And while I'm sure I will enjoy my school experience, that is why I picked this institution and this program, I would deeply rather be attending the Pan System University of Mahira and New Tideland and engaging in anti-corporate espionage.
Introduction to Hosts and Podcast
00:02:04
Speaker
Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another episode of the Fandom Apprentice. My name is Rin. I'm one of your hosts. Host? it Like, that I'm imagining a host of angels. i am one of your hosts.
00:02:20
Speaker
We are descending from the podcast heavens. Yeah, my brain also went to our religious upbringing because I was like, you know, the host, the body holding up the the wafer.
00:02:34
Speaker
and I could still to this day, despite the fact that I haven't set foot in a church for a service in many years, could still recite the whole thing.
00:02:45
Speaker
oh I don't doubt it. Yeah. And so could you. Yes. But that's not what we're here for. We're here for gay podcast. Anyway, hi my name is Rin. I'm one of your hosts. I've been a lifelong nerd, not just about Catholicism and Catholicism light, aka Episcopalianism.
00:03:05
Speaker
But I have been primarily a nerd about various sci-fi and fantasy for my entire life, courtesy of my father primarily, and have throughout the course of my life sought out as much obscure slash old slash weird sci-fi and fantasy to foist upon my friends so I would have somebody who wasn't my father to yell at them to yell about with them one of these days I'm gonna get this intro and like solidify something Lord the Rings I had such a good it was it was so nice and easy was I've read Lord of the Rings before you haven't
00:03:49
Speaker
It'll be easier with Redacted next season. Maybe. But anyway. I guess then just, yeah, opening scroll it that way. Anyway. I'm Sam. I'm the other one. I am not Ridd's father, as far as you know, listeners.
00:04:04
Speaker
I hope not. And we are continuing our coverage of the Murderbot Diary series by Martha Wells. We are halfway through Network Effect, which is the first full-length novel.
00:04:16
Speaker
If you haven't listened to our other two episodes about Network Effect... You should probably go back and start there because this is a big,
Overview of 'Network Effect' Chapters 8-13
00:04:23
Speaker
beefy section. We're going to be covering chapters 8 through 13 because they all go together narratively very well.
00:04:31
Speaker
But it is six chapters and there's a lot of themes and a lot of stuff to get into. So unless you have any other preliminary comments, we can just get right into it. No, I guess just last we left off, SecUnit had discovered a file packet addressed to Eden and opened it to discover a section from World Hoppers in which the protagonist is describing being trapped inside their own body.
00:05:02
Speaker
And SecUnit realizes Art might not be dead. Mm-hmm. So SecUnit launches a code attack on target control system.
00:05:14
Speaker
It's going down, which lets some of Art's systems back online. SecUnit finds Art's hidden backup in an unused storage area of the food production facility.
00:05:28
Speaker
So it just basically hid itself in the cupboard. We get Art back online. We are back, baby. The sass starts immediately. They waste no time. The humans are very confused.
00:05:41
Speaker
Art is deliberately evasive in the way that it is. so Evasive and threatening, both, you know, on brand. Amina barely holding it together. Sec unit furious.
00:05:52
Speaker
And we learn that Art's crew has been stolen. So this is the release. This is the catharsis after... seven chapters of buildup where we finally start getting some answers, but everything is just kind of on fire.
00:06:07
Speaker
Where would you like to start with this one?
Art's Reemergence and Sci-Fi Themes
00:06:10
Speaker
I want to go back to what you said about art hiding itself in the cupboard because that did not actually occur to me until just now. Mm-hmm. which that's actually perfect. That's ah hilarious.
00:06:21
Speaker
And absolutely 100% what Martha Wells was doing. It's like, yeah, art hated self in the cupboard. And or also, I'm wondering if it's an Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull reference, in which Indy hides himself inside ah refrigerator during a nuclear bomb test to survive the new the nuclear bomb test.
00:06:46
Speaker
I have not seen any Indiana Jones movies. This is a fun fact about me. I think we did have the Lego Indiana Jones for the Wii growing up, which I may have played a cumulative four hours of.
00:07:01
Speaker
But this this is news to me. i had I had it for the the ds the Lego Indiana Jones, but yes. Lego games are just fucking good. They're good games. We'll get to them one day, listeners.
00:07:14
Speaker
Yes. When we talk about Redacted. ah We'll be talking about Indiana Jones later. Anyway, I have to wonder if we we've already had like potentially subtle references to Hitchhiker's Guide. Mm-hmm.
00:07:26
Speaker
And I was listening to another one of the podcasts that I listened to. um theyre They're talking about Star Trek and the fact that sci-fi is forever self-referential. Mm-hmm.
00:07:38
Speaker
And it absolutely is. So I i have to think that i'm I'm sure that even I am not a sci-fi aficionado. i have not read everything out there. And I'm also not going to catch every reference just in general.
00:07:53
Speaker
But I'm sure there's been a lot more like subtle little references like this, whether or not they were intended or if we we're just drawing lines between things because they're fun little themes.
00:08:05
Speaker
Anyway, Arts reemergence. The other week you sent me a post on Tumblr about artwork of art in the feed. Looking very draconic, biblically accurate angel-y.
00:08:22
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Which I'm so glad that that has, that that's everyone else's image because this was so very dragon coming out of a dark cave. Mm-hmm.
00:08:33
Speaker
Get the fuck off of my ship, off of my ship, get out of my house. Yeah.
Art vs. SecUnit Tensions
00:08:39
Speaker
You know, of the explorers, like, it there is even, like, the lights all go out.
00:08:44
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And there's an instant before everything turns back on and I was like, that's the moment where the, um, the torch goes out and you realize the reason the torch has gone out is because something breathed on it.
00:08:57
Speaker
Ooh, yes. And then just then you just see the nose of the dragon coming out. That is what this moment felt like. I'm so, because I've read the entire series that has been published up to this point, I'm so used to thinking of art as...
00:09:14
Speaker
my friendly research transport who is in love with Murderbot, and that's great, that I need to remind myself how fucking terrifying it is. We will be talking more about art and its purpose and the things that it has going on.
00:09:30
Speaker
It is a very scary, omniscient AI god being. And everyone is helpless. And it's such an asshole.
00:09:41
Speaker
And it's also just mean. It is such an asshole. Oh, my God. And related to the way that it communicates.
00:09:52
Speaker
Ages ago, I think probably in artificial condition, honestly, we were talking about the way that art's dialogue is formatted in the text and whether or not it was in quotations or otherwise differentiated from the rest of the narrative.
00:10:07
Speaker
In the version that I have, with art speaking on the public feed and on the comm, both of those times, its dialogue is in line with the rest of the text, but it's in italics.
00:10:20
Speaker
So it is differentiated, at least in this version. yeah I mean, I'm also looking at print, whereas the last time I was looking at like at an e-book, but it was an EPUB file.
00:10:33
Speaker
So very funny to watch art turn around and basically be like, you've now you fucked up and. murder like straight up murder the remaining targets with sound potentially kind of in their helmets yeah like something in their gear fucking up and killing them that way that were incapacitated to the point where then they can be shot and then it turns around and is like Hello. Like, it's, it's all like a, it's almost like a, like, you know when your dog catches a squirrel and brutally fucking murders the squirrel and then turns around like, look, mom.
00:11:19
Speaker
And Sec Unit, instead of being thrilled that its friend who it thought was dead is alive and okay, is absolutely pissed. Because putting the pieces together, realizing that the message packet had been put in the queue for it to discover eventually...
00:11:37
Speaker
it realizes that art had some degree of awareness this whole time, even if it was very minimal. And it manipulated SecUnit, put its humans in danger, and just put them all into an incredibly shitty situation in a very dramatic way.
00:11:57
Speaker
And we will get another perspective on how that all went down later on as SecUnit gets more context and starts to think about it differently. But its immediate reaction is, fuck you. Why the fuck did you do this in the most dramatic and dangerous possible way?
Art's Anti-Corporate Mission
00:12:14
Speaker
i am not happy to see you right now. So there is tension, which is maybe not the emotional reaction that we were expecting. Well, and it's and it's definitely heightened after we learn that the reason that Art needed to go get Secuna is because its crew's been kidnapped. Yeah.
00:12:33
Speaker
during which time Tiago is like, you could have killed all of us. And Art goes, that was a chance I was willing to take. To which Sec Unit basically shuts down because Art was willing to kill its humans, was willing to kill Murderbot's humans to save its own.
00:12:55
Speaker
Yeah. And Sec Unit is like, that's not fucking acceptable to me. Yeah, that's a huge violation because they had been, if not explicitly, because we know they don't talk about their feelings, that's a whole issue, if not explicitly bonding over this, they at least have some kind of mutual understanding that clients and crew are extremely important relationships to both of them.
00:13:20
Speaker
And so Art, knowing this, still made the decision, whatever, fuck you, my humans are more important. Yeah. You know, sec unit is not going take that well.
00:13:32
Speaker
And I also think, too, as much as both Murderbot and Art like to present themselves as purely rational, logical beings, we know that they're not.
00:13:45
Speaker
The both of them are, to go back and reference more sci-fi, scared panicky animals, which is from Men in Black.
00:13:56
Speaker
A person is smart. People are scared panicky animals, and we both know it. Mm-hmm. Also a line from this book, um which is in chapter nine, there's some tension.
00:14:10
Speaker
Rati is saying to oversay, anyone who thinks machine intelligences don't have emotions needs to be in this very uncomfortable room right now.
00:14:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's they're presenting themselves as, you know, the perfect epit epitome of rationality, and neither of them are Art is like, well, my decision was logical.
00:14:31
Speaker
It wasn't. It was panicking. It takes SecUnit sort of a minute to figure that out because SecUnit is very much like, oh, art is so much smarter than I am. Art is so much more powerful than I am.
00:14:44
Speaker
It knows how to handle itself. And it doesn't. it It does its best. But so does Murderbot. And we're going to see the process of both of them trying to understand that about each other through this entire book and the next ones. But I think to put a pin in that, because it will continue to come up again, going into chapter nine,
00:15:08
Speaker
Sorry, before we go into chapter nine, there was one little other piece that I wanted to highlight, which was we've seen sec unit get hurt before. But through this, sec unit gets shot in the back very early in the chapter and basically then drags itself onto, onto, into the control room.
00:15:25
Speaker
And on multiple occasions, you know, we've seen sec unit get hurt before, but it I feel like this has been, this is a step above because it's explicitly describing itself as like unable to function due to its injuries It can't hold itself upright in the chair.
00:15:41
Speaker
When it tries to stand, it has a catastrophic shutdown. It's losing its ability to focus on its inputs. Like, it is, it's dying.
00:15:53
Speaker
You know, it mentions that pieces of its back are falling off. Yeah. And it's glib about it in the way that it always is. But I feel like this this very much was a moment where we, I think, we almost saw a little bit more concern from it of it being like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to finish this.
00:16:15
Speaker
And Amina does not take this well. No. She is speed running her coming of age process, which is another thing that we can talk more about later. But once everything is back online, we have a pissed off sec unit.
00:16:33
Speaker
It's trying to give art the silent treatment, which is not really possible when art is also the ship that you're on, but, you know, it's making its point. Rati and Amina broach the relationship conversation, which is one of my favorite parts of this entire series.
00:16:51
Speaker
They reach a deal with Art to help find its humans. Not that they really have much of a choice. And we learn what Art's real purpose is. The big secret that it has been hiding up until this point is revealed.
00:17:06
Speaker
Art and Sec Unit continue to fight. Art demands an apology, tries being nice, and Murderbot loses it. So there's messiness, there's plot, there's big secrets. Where should we?
00:17:17
Speaker
Where do you want to begin
Relationship Terminology and Cultural Perspectives
00:17:18
Speaker
with this one? Because I know what part I want to talk about. I mean, I want to talk about the relationship conversation. Yes, I would love to. Let me find the context in the page and then.
00:17:28
Speaker
So Murderbot is sulking in its room and Rati and Amina kind of peek their heads in. And Rati and Amina are trying to understand what the fuck is happening because they just met Art like 10 minutes ago.
00:17:45
Speaker
And there's clearly a lot of drama happening and they want to know what's up. They are such a divorced couple. This whole chapter. Truly, truly. Rati sighed, leaned against the wall, and said, So, you have a relationship with this transport?
00:18:02
Speaker
I was horrified. Humans are disgusting. No! Rati made a little exasperated noise. I didn't mean a sexual relationship. Amina's brow furrowed in confusion and curiosity.
00:18:14
Speaker
Is that possible? No, I told her. Rati persisted. Rule 34, Amina. You have a friendship. I settled back in the corner and hugged my jacket. No, not.
00:18:25
Speaker
No. It grumbles some more. Rati continues to pressure it to say something. And Sec Unit settles on describing their relationship as a mutual administrative assistance.
00:18:39
Speaker
Because they're definitely not friends. Definitely not anymore. No, of course not. But this is the first of many times where the humans realize that there is a fundamental inability to talk about emotions between both art and sec unit, and that they are going to need some help with their communication.
00:19:03
Speaker
The first piece that I noticed was language ah surrounding relationships. And I've had this concern, like myself, Like a relationship is any, you know, you can call any interaction between two people over the long term, a relationship, like my relationship to my coworkers, right, is still quote unquote, a relationship, but a relationship capital R is diff is, you know, my relationship to a partner, right?
00:19:38
Speaker
But we don't have different words for that. Yeah. And hell, we don't have different words for like... styles of relationship even, or, you know, even even just talking about like romantic or sexual relationships. We don't have different words really all that much.
00:19:58
Speaker
like We've got like hookup and, you know, situationship. But i was talking with my ex because back in college, I dated Someone who is Brazilian, who talked to me about like different words used in Brazilian Portuguese to describe like different relationship stages. Like in in English, you just call something a relationship or someone a partner.
00:20:26
Speaker
Or, you know, a boyfriend, a girlfriend. Whereas, like, in in Portuguese, you've got cotachinho, which is like the talking stage.
00:20:38
Speaker
Little contact. Also, I'm sorry for my pronunciation. Ficando, ficando serio, which is like person I'm seeing. And then ficando serio is like person I'm seeing seriously. Yeah.
00:20:53
Speaker
then you've got like namorado or namorada, noivo, esposo. there's So there's like all different like levels that denote like different levels of seriousness.
00:21:04
Speaker
Ever since she told me that back in like 2016, that has been rattling around in my brain ever since because I have wanted something like that to describe like queer platonic relationships.
00:21:17
Speaker
And it just doesn't fucking exist, right? To be like, you know... Calling someone your acquaintance feels cold. and i'm like, no, no, no. You're my friend, but like, I don't actually really know you.
00:21:30
Speaker
Versus like, people I've been friends with for years. Versus like, I refer to you in different company as like, you know, my best friend, my Sam, like that is these are different, like, but there is no like, term that differentiates like, people I feel queer platonic love towards from people who I'm very good friends with.
00:21:52
Speaker
Mm hmm. from really even like people I feel romantically towards. Like these are like, we don't have words to describe that. And I, yeah, just knocked my mic stand. Sorry about that.
00:22:05
Speaker
And so murder bot being upset about this one term used to describe its relationship with art and i use that term even though it really doesn't like it because i don't have another one it's it's you know mutual understanding assistance yeah i don't know bestie how do you want to proceed Yeah, I didn't have as insightful thoughts about it as that.
00:22:39
Speaker
I just really enjoyed it for the comedy value. Because it is played for laughs, but also is indicating, you know, this much more serious tension in their relationship, which I think is the only thing that we can call it at this point.
00:22:54
Speaker
But I think, too, there's I mean, we talked a little bit about it in our episode on the short stories in our section on rapport, which I know we said folks could wait to listen to until after reading Network Effect if they wanted to.
00:23:08
Speaker
And you still can. But we do elaborate on this a little bit more in that section. And, you know, at risk of repeating ourselves, this is in part a coming out conversation.
00:23:21
Speaker
You know, I never thought about this scene as a coming out conversation. but I like it This is the reverse of like another queer person showing up and being like, hey, you have the right to figure your own shit out.
00:23:36
Speaker
And also, i don't know if you're noticing these things that are definitely happening. And I feel like I should tell you about them.
00:23:47
Speaker
I'm cracking your egg for you. Is this something that you have experienced in real life? Because I have not. I haven't. But, you know, I've seen people on the internet talking about, like, having conversations with people about, well, I've had conversations with people about gender.
00:24:03
Speaker
Being like, okay. and listen Mostly listening to them talk about their feelings and being like, okay, have you read this thing?
Gender Identity Exploration
00:24:11
Speaker
Have you considered maybe that you might not be cis?
00:24:16
Speaker
Or, you know, that if you don't want to be a girl, you don't have to be. Like, you know, and and usually it's things that the person had already kind of figured out for themselves.
00:24:31
Speaker
But being somebody who, at least for our generation, came out relatively early, I've been kind of a sounding board for a lot of other trans people.
00:24:45
Speaker
Especially because like so many people figured shit out during the pandemic. Yeah. Yeah. you know And so people who were both both our age and a year or two younger than us being like, well, you've been doing this a long time. And i'm like, I have not been doing this a long time.
00:25:02
Speaker
How did I become a trans elder in my early 20s? um And now here I am my late twenty s Like, oh, thank God, at least there's others now.
00:25:14
Speaker
And also at least now I'm also i'm also meeting like trans people who are older than me finally. Which is really nice. Although, of course, some of them have still been doing this less time than I have.
00:25:28
Speaker
Good God. Not a linear journey, everybody. No, it's not. You can do second puberty whenever. It's great. I just also am 300 times weepier than I have, than I ever was prior. Sláinte. Cheers.
Amina's Growth and Dynamics
00:25:46
Speaker
Anyway, in a less cute, more everyone being assholes way, Sekyunit notices that Art is particularly sensitive to Amina's feelings and really, really doesn't want her to be upset.
00:26:01
Speaker
And it does use her as a little bit of a pawn in saying, well, you're making Amina upset, so you should stop doing that. Fuck you. And that works and softens art up a little bit.
00:26:13
Speaker
And we finally get the reveal of what art's purpose is. Because it is a research, transport, and teaching vessel. But what else does it do, bestie?
00:26:25
Speaker
It engages anti-corporate activities. Basically, it tracks down lost colonies, manages to produce the paperwork that grant the colonies self-governance so they can't get salvaged by some corporation.
00:26:44
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And clearly, based on rapport, it also does various other anti-corporate shit. Mm-hmm. it is It is somehow engaged in various forms of anti-corporate activities, undermining corporations however it can.
00:27:03
Speaker
And eagle-eyed readers, I don't think that we commented on this specifically in our previous two episodes. We might have, but I don't think we did. But people who have been reading the books may have noticed SecUnit remarking on the fact that art has base for way way space and materials for way more people than reasonable crew complement plus students.
00:27:27
Speaker
It has a shit ton of supplies. It has a shit ton of bunks. It has the ability to evacuate colonists if it needs to. it is fully stocked and equipped for any situation that it might encounter. And this explains some inconsistencies that Secunit noticed. This explains the guns.
00:27:47
Speaker
think you mean the debris deflection system.
00:27:53
Speaker
A weapon system for debris deflection. Yeah. We also get a name for some new bad guys. so Adamantine Explorations are the ones who had, they had found the planet and they had tried to take over and then Barish Estranza had taken over from them when they folded.
00:28:19
Speaker
Yeah. So, so the, there is basically, there are three eras in this planet that we need to worry about. Well, four, I guess.
00:28:29
Speaker
The first era is the alien era because this shit's about alien remnants. who So the first era is whatever was living here before humans.
00:28:42
Speaker
The second era was a pre-corporation rim settlement and initial terraforming attempt. Sometime after that, somewhere between, it's not really specified how much time exactly, somewhere between 20 and 100 years later, there is another attempt from the corporation rim.
00:29:05
Speaker
Adamantine Explorations shows up, says, hi, we own you now, and tries to start
Resolution of Art and SecUnit Conflicts
00:29:11
Speaker
another settlement. It's unclear whether or not there were settlers still there or whether it was just there was technology still there and like abandoned facilities still there from the first settlement attempt.
00:29:27
Speaker
And then adamantine systems folds really quickly. It gets ah taken down in a hostile takeover, which basically means corporate warfare, like literally shooting warfare.
00:29:44
Speaker
And for 40 years, this colony goes missing, basically. Nobody knows where it is. Nobody knows it exists until somebody found records of a possible colony and Barish Estranza shows up trying to take control of that potential colony or colony space.
00:30:07
Speaker
um And now supposedly and among the corporation, Rim, owns the planet. So that's era three. Era... Well, nope, sorry. That is era four.
00:30:18
Speaker
but the The era that we are currently in is the era of Barish Estranza competing with the Pan System University of Mihira and New Tideland, aka Arts Home, for control of this colony.
00:30:34
Speaker
So we have... era one aliens era two pre-corporation rim settlement era three corporation rim settlement with adamantine and era four barish astranza meets university interference yes so got all that listeners there will be a test so moving on unless you have anything else now moving on to chapter 10 So with this established, the secret revealed, Elytra, by the way, has no idea about any of this. She is deliberately left out of all these conversations.
00:31:07
Speaker
And that was a smart move for reasons that we will soon learn. We don't let the corporates know shit. Everyone goes off to do their various specialties, their various tasks.
00:31:18
Speaker
SecUnit works on reconstructing arts memories. We think that there may be alien remnants in the colony interacting with human tech that are causing the aggression and memory issues and other weirdness that we're seeing from Barish Estranza people.
00:31:33
Speaker
Yeah, there was there was a ah conversation about, like, compulsive building, which made me think of, you've played Skyrim. Have you ever played the Dragonborn DLC?
00:31:45
Speaker
I have not, no. So in the Dragonborn DLC... The last dragonborn, a.k.a. the player character, ends up going to the island of Sultzheim, where the first dragonborn, a dragon priest named Mirak, had his kingdom. And it turns out Mirak is back.
00:32:03
Speaker
And Mirak had made some sort of deal with Hermaeus Mora, the Daedra prince, And there's scenes in which people across Solzheim end up compulsively building, like, structures around the Allmaker Stones, which are part of the, like, native humans of Solzheim's, like, religious beliefs.
00:32:32
Speaker
And like chanting ah mantra, you know here in his shrine that they have forgotten. Here do we toil that we might remember. By night we reclaim what by day was st stolen.
00:32:46
Speaker
And it just, it goes on. And if your characters, if you have your characters sleep on Solzheim, there's a chance that you will wake up. hammering on one of these stones um so it's it's that was my immediate thought with the compulsive building like alien memories working its way into your brain and making you do weird things mm-hmm Anyway, Skyrim.
00:33:13
Speaker
Yeah. We get lots of exposition from Amina gently interrogating Elytra. We learn that whatever attacked Art and took its crew first came from Barashastranza ships, which is not good.
00:33:26
Speaker
This kind of helps get Murderbot to that place of having a different perspective on the whole abduction thing, that Art wasn't being calculating and evil and cruel. It was panicked and terrified.
00:33:40
Speaker
And in kind of a nice inversion of Mensa's family being uncomfortable with sec units specifically. Art wanted sec units specifically. It was thinking, I need my friend. i need sec unit. I need the comfort and security of this person who's the only one that I trust, which is nice.
00:34:00
Speaker
Murderbot and Amina have a conversation. Tiago and Murderbot also have a conversation.
Murderbot's Vulnerability and Emotional Landscape
00:34:06
Speaker
he voices his concerns about Murderbot. It goes very poorly. Murderbot and Art make a plan, which will be expounded on more later.
00:34:13
Speaker
They find the Barish Estranza vessel, or a Barish Estranza vessel, And we get another excerpt from helpme.file. I don't have a ton for this chapter, but I do have a couple of very little things. And then if you have more thoughts.
00:34:28
Speaker
Yeah, hit me. Very little thing. Tiago refers to Amina as my daughter. Which just language is this common. We don't like really see.
00:34:41
Speaker
We don't see other family interactions here for like. people who aren't parent and child or who aren't married. So is this common in preservation? is it very, it feels a little Catholic priest, like, you know, my child.
00:35:01
Speaker
I was just thinking of like Spanish, like, you know, you might call someone like mija. It's like, you know, like my, it literally means my daughter, but it's more of just like a familiar, like honey, sweetie. Yeah. So, but considering Tiago's kind of uncertain place in the family dynamic and seeming to be the one that pushes boundaries and is perhaps a little too familiar, a little too invested, is this a common preservation thing?
00:35:29
Speaker
Is this just a Tiago thing? Yeah. the ah Another observation was the line, art dumped its archive on me. And the description of like, feeling overloaded by the weight of files that art sticks on Murderbot.
00:35:46
Speaker
And I'm just imagining... Standing there and just a pile of paperwork falling in a very cartoony style. Or like Murderbot struggling in the original cartoon Grinch with the little dog Max struggling with all the giant heaped up sacks to put them on the sleigh.
00:36:05
Speaker
ah Yeah. that was That was my mental image for that. And it also was an observation that they panic like we do. it's It's the particular particularly Murderbot who takes either takes a minute And then goes, okay, here's the plan.
00:36:24
Speaker
Or alternatively goes straight into problem solving mode and will go and slam itself inside a bathroom and have its little panic moment later when we are not actively in danger.
00:36:35
Speaker
It's, you know, you and I have both had these moments both together and separately. Yeah. They panic exactly like we do. They make very detailed, very step-by-step plans.
00:36:47
Speaker
And then they have their little emotional breakdown. Yeah. And then they come back to their detailed step-by-step plans. You once told me that I panic in the most organized way you've ever seen.
00:36:59
Speaker
And that is very true. I distinctly remember a moment where my bathroom ceiling collapsed. This was two apartments ago, two apartments, one apartment ago, two plus years.
00:37:15
Speaker
This point, the apartment upstairs flooded and my bathroom ceiling collapsed. And part of my bedroom ceiling came close to buckling too. It was not fun. And my immediate response is I shut off water, water,
00:37:30
Speaker
put down sheets and towels and got everything moved out of the way. There were buckets down. Like I had everything under control and an exact plan of like what order things were going in to get things fixed. You know, was like, well, can't stay here tonight because everything's kind of still a mess.
00:37:45
Speaker
um And it's like literally 10 PM. So like found another place to crash, whole thing taken care of. And then as once the, our, our building super left after finally like shutting off the water,
00:37:59
Speaker
I called my neighbor slash our friend slash our D&D, one of the members of our D&D group, Alexa. I was like, hi, can you come over? Because I'm about to lose my shit.
00:38:11
Speaker
And yeah she came over and I just cried for like 30 minutes straight. um But that was after like 45 minutes of like very...
00:38:24
Speaker
step-by-step plans that we are carrying out step-by-step. And now, and I have a plan for after this little panic hits me and goes away, but I need to have my little panic.
00:38:38
Speaker
So that was fun. Yeah. In these situations too, there's a line that I did not write down the context for, but Sec Unit says something about how it's used to art being the adult, and it has to be the adult in a situation, and that it's used to art just being able to solve all the problems and fix everything, and it just kind of gets to kick back while its omniscient bestie just takes care of stuff, and then it goes, oh shit, I actually have to be the one to handle this.
00:39:07
Speaker
Art is also scared. And is also barely holding it together. And just because it happens to be smarter and faster and more capable with certain things doesn't mean that it does not still have all of those same emotions. You know, I think, I think it's an interesting,
00:39:31
Speaker
look at two people with different, you know, we we can think about, you know, two people with different neurodivergences or like one friend who has a disability and one friend who doesn't, you know, thinking like, oh, one friend who is always better at this thing or, you know, very, you know, you can think parent and child sorts of things.
00:39:56
Speaker
But i think because I don't think of that as much because they are very much peers. Mm hmm. But there is a very real difference in their abilities for things that they both need to be able to do, but one of them just absolutely can blow the other one out of the water on a regular basis.
00:40:17
Speaker
Right. And, and yeah, Secunit has this perception of art as always being much more capable than it.
00:40:28
Speaker
And a piece of that is Secunit underestimating itself. And a piece of that is the fact that art just simply is a giant near omniscient starship and just simply does in fact have different abilities than a sec unit does, some of which include blowing things up more effectively.
00:40:51
Speaker
Conveniently and greater processing power. But that doesn't mean that like, it still can't have emotions that it still can't panic that it doesn't still have difficulties.
00:41:07
Speaker
Yeah. And with their emotional powers combined, there's a very sweet conversation between sec Unit and Amina where she asks an unexpected question, which is why it broke ah broke up her. And I'm not sure if it was Marnie or Marn. How do you pronounce her creepy man's name?
00:41:31
Speaker
Honestly, I think I missed that conversation. Oh, it's really sweet. But she's just asking it, you know, why did you break us up? What the fuck was the point of that? I didn't know you were watching me like this is sort of got us off on the wrong foot.
00:41:46
Speaker
Let's address this now. And the sec unit explains its reasoning and how it was looking out for her. And we also just get a little funny bit that Secunit considers Rati the ultimate Casanova. And that Amina should really be asking him for advice.
00:42:04
Speaker
Like, listen, we're talking about relationships. You need you need to ask this this fucking guy who, by all accounts, is just a dweeb like everyone else on the survey, but is apparently just getting it on the regular.
00:42:18
Speaker
And I love that for him. Amina also asks if Secunit loves her second mother, and Murderbot's response is, not the way you think.
00:42:31
Speaker
Which is pretty much a direct... expression of i love Mensa, which is beautiful and wonderful. And we kind of see Amina getting comfortable, getting vulnerable. They're really relating to each other on a nice, deeper level.
00:42:47
Speaker
And then Art chimes in with its hyper attunement to young humans. Art must be recovering because it had to butt in with tell her you care about her. Use those words. Don't tell her you'll eviscerate anything that tries to hurt her.
00:43:02
Speaker
Art, fuck off. The thing that Art has in common with human adolescents is that it doesn't like to hear the word no, either. It persisted. Tell her, it's true, just say it. Human adolescents need to hear it from their caretakers.
00:43:15
Speaker
I'm not a caretaker, I told Art. I finished the long conversation and checked my drone view of Amina. She was leaning in the hallway, her head propped on the seal buffer. That isn't a good place to rest your head, just FYI.
Corporate Negotiations and Hostage Situations
00:43:26
Speaker
From her expression, she was either falling asleep or deep in thought. Or possibly both. I said, you need to sleep. She yawned. Okay, third mom. Isn't that just the sweet to go from the very beginning?
00:43:42
Speaker
Her being pissed that Sec Unit broke up her weird little booty call to okay mom, but in a way that is obviously so deeply affectionate and the also sweet...
00:43:55
Speaker
little inversion the nice little literary device of us starting with sec unit interfering in Amina's intimate relationships to now her interfering in its intimate relationships well this is from a little bit earlier it's this yeah this is just from a little bit earlier but I had another a quote yeah which was yeah it was right it's right when um art and murderbot are making up on the private channel between art and me I said I apologize for calling you a fucker It said, I apologize for kidnapping you and causing potential collateral damage to your clients.
00:44:29
Speaker
Amina was watching me, her brows drawn together. Are you two talking? Yes. I had look at the wall now. Amina was still worried. Are you fighting again or are you making up? Because it looks exactly the same from the outside.
00:44:41
Speaker
We're making up, Art told her. Good. Amina looked relieved. Good. Right. What's next on our list? She's wonderful. Yeah. And then we get help me not file excerpt three, which I don't have a ton on, but assassination attempts on Mensa. Yeah.
00:45:00
Speaker
Yeah, we... begin to get the story that then is later confirmed to be more details of the assassination attempt that had been alluded to before. So there's a lot to process with that, but we're getting plot details.
00:45:17
Speaker
Chapter 11, really don't have that much. I have like two sentences Oh, Chapter 11 and chapter 12... twelve I feel like we get a lot about Arada and Oversay.
00:45:30
Speaker
To which I don't necessarily have a ton. And again, this is from like way back in chapter nine, but I have a quote. was Arada hugged Oversay and Oversay kissed her and said into her ear, you can do this, babe. You're a bulkhead.
00:45:43
Speaker
I'm a wibbly bulkhead, Arada muttered. The wibbliness was why I trusted Arada. Overconfident humans who won't listen to anybody anybody else scared the hell out of me. And that wibbliness continues into these next two chapters where Arada has to suddenly take control and interact with the corporates, which I guess let's summarize.
00:46:08
Speaker
I'm going if you're okay with it, summarize 11 and 12 together. Yeah. Because the 11 is very short. So what the fuck is going on with the Bearish Estranza ship? They make contact.
00:46:19
Speaker
Supervisor Leonid enters the artfully retouched picture. She's cagey as fuck. Arata makes a plan that everyone hates, which is to return Elytra and meet Leonid on her ship.
00:46:33
Speaker
So Sec Unit, Arata, and Elytra go to the ship, Murderbot hacks into their sec system, no problem. We get Leonid's version of events, which is that Baris Shestranza wholly owns the planet.
00:46:46
Speaker
Its space dock, the planet space dock, was operational. They sent people down to the planetary surface in a drop box. That group was
Murderbot's Identity Reflections
00:46:55
Speaker
compromised and turned their explorer vessel on the supply ship.
00:47:02
Speaker
Seems like the targets really want to get off the planet. Surprise, surprise. Our group is hostages now. That lasts like half a second. Arts guns help with that.
00:47:14
Speaker
Sec unit proposes that it and art become parents, which a bit of a, bit of a pivot. Yeah. um Okay. Corporate negotiations, little, a little hostage situation, a little fight. It's been a minute since we've had a fight. That's cool. Let's have a baby and then kill it.
00:47:33
Speaker
so There's a lot. I want to go right to the baby thing, unless you have other bits that you want to talk about. i have short moments. Yeah. Yeah, hit me. i have the In HelpMe.File excerpt 3, we get an understanding that Gray Chris, this is now going back to end of 10, but Gray Chris basically destroyed the minds of these three assassins and basically programmed them somehow to be super assassins, essentially sec units, but human assassins.
00:48:06
Speaker
And then we get immediately Arata is talking to Leonid and mentions mind altering tech and Leonid is visibly interested in the fact that we have two mentions of this mind altering like tech and corporates being very willing to use it.
00:48:24
Speaker
Just that's that's just ah i wanted to highlight that one. No more commentary other than cor corporation bad and will take over mines. The other piece was when Murderbot is going over with with Arada to the ship and Murderbot decides to be a sec unit rather than pretend to be an augmented human, which Which Art is wholly against.
00:48:54
Speaker
Art says, Sec Unit is getting dressed up, but looking like a Sec Unit to go over to the ship and act as Arata's Sec Unit. And asks, why do you want me to pretend to be an augmented human? This is easier.
00:49:08
Speaker
And Art goes, you don't like it. And Sec Unit's response is, that's my problem. And I know a couple episodes we ago, we talked very deeply about the gender of the the very, very transgender feelings surrounding Murderbot. This is another trans moment.
00:49:26
Speaker
This is another like trans person early in their transition and or, you know, being being forced to we call it going girl mode or going boy mode, having to put on your assigned gender for whatever reason.
00:49:41
Speaker
And someone, some loved one being like, you don't have to do this. You i like, I don't want you to do this. The trans person being like, this is easier.
00:49:54
Speaker
This is so much easier. I don't feel like having to deal with the possibility of being outed. Let me just go get through this. I don't have to like it. I'm not going to like any result here.
00:50:07
Speaker
I'm just going to do what gets me through this fastest. i was that was a very That was something that I recognized very, very, like, that was that was instant. Also, the line corporate power peeing.
00:50:21
Speaker
oh I forgot about the power peeing. yeah Yeah, Oversay is like, hey, is everything okay? And Arada's like, it's just corporate power peeing. Pissing contest, out.
00:50:31
Speaker
Power peeing, in. It just makes me think of power lifting, that you're just trying just pee as hard as possible. Fascinating. And then also... i love it.
00:50:44
Speaker
Oversei and Arada, who have been stressing each other out this whole time, ah go bone it out. I love that for them. And also potentially use that... knowingly or unknowingly, use that to ah hide whatever conversations they may or may not have from SecUnit, because SecUnit's not going to watch or listen to that shit.
00:51:05
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Let's talk about the baby. I would love to talk about the baby. So to clarify what specifically we're talking about, SecUnit comes to the conclusion that the only way that they will effectively be able to beat whatever this target technology, target system controlling force is, is with a viral malware attack.
00:51:33
Speaker
But it has to be something that can adapt quickly. It has to be sentient, basically. And so it's super reasonable proposal is just make a copy of me that has the singular mission of destroying this system, upload it, and then let it be
Challenges in Art and Murderbot's Relationship
00:51:55
Speaker
destroyed.
00:51:55
Speaker
And nobody liked that idea. Art immediately tattles Tarati, who then comes storming in saying, hey, what the fuck are you talking about? You're going to make a baby?
00:52:06
Speaker
And then Amina gets upset and saying... You know, this is horrible. We hate this idea. You and Art need to talk about your feelings. Amita's quote.
00:52:18
Speaker
She tried to hold it in and managed for almost six seconds, then burst out. Art should know how you really feel about it. And this is serious. It's like you and Art are making a baby just so you can send it off to get killed or deleted or whatever might happen.
00:52:31
Speaker
And then SecUnit vehemently denies that it's not a baby, saying it's just made of code. We're just combining our codes and making a new thing. That's it's not like a human baby at all.
00:52:42
Speaker
Amina said, so how are human babies made? By combining DNA and organic code from two or more participants. Okay, so it was a little like a human baby. That's irrelevant.
00:52:56
Speaker
Art said, Amina, it may be necessary. Art sounded serious and resigned. Amina pressed her lips together, unhappy. I'd won the argument. Yay, me. So I left.
00:53:08
Speaker
Which I was just proofing our Network Effect Part 1 episode in which we talked quite a bit about how does procreation work in preservation.
00:53:19
Speaker
h And we were talking about whether or not Amina is biologically the child of all three of her parents? Is that something that is, is possible in this, in this time period, in this, in this galaxy? And the answer seems to be, yeah, probably. Hell yeah. So we get a fun little answer there.
00:53:39
Speaker
i want to find quote of what Art said in response to Murderbot's plan, where it talks about, aha, So Secunit is trying to justify to Art why this making a copy of itself and then deleting it is totally not a big deal.
00:53:56
Speaker
And doesn't even worry, like doesn't even need to worry. And saying, you know, you wanted us to make a malware attack with a variable component. Art going, no, I didn't mean that we send you. Art says, for being as sophisticated as you are, it is baffling how little understanding you have of the composition of your own mind.
00:54:14
Speaker
Which is just so sad because basically what I took that to mean is Art saying, your opinion of yourself is so low and so your self-esteem issues are way worse than I thought that you do not realize how significant it is that you still view yourself as disposable.
00:54:38
Speaker
I think there's that. And also it's still managing to say it in the most condescending way possible. Well, of course, because it's art. Yes, but it's it's very much basically being, it you can also immediately read that and Secunit does being like, you know yourre you know, your mind is too small to understand that like there are complex and complicated connections between neurons and machinery.
00:55:08
Speaker
You know, I understand how your brain works. You don't. Yeah. There was a very smart Tumblr post that we have reblogged on fanapppod.tumblr.com, if people want to go read it, talking about how art continually oversteps in its relationship with Murderbot.
00:55:30
Speaker
And... and part of the argument that person makes is that this is basically the first time that art has had a relationship with someone that treats it like an equal for a given value of equal, despite all the inequality between them that we've talked about.
00:55:45
Speaker
But I think just having in mind, looking out for all of the many ways that art oversteps with Secunit constantly, despite the closeness that they have and the closest that they're trying to cultivate It's an important factor in their relationship. And now that I've had that put in my brain as something to look out for, I am just seeing it all the time. And this is another example. Like, yes, its tone is very funny and its condescension is part of its charm. And they have this sort of sarcastic banter.
00:56:16
Speaker
But also, art really crosses the line
Themes of Control and Autonomy
00:56:20
Speaker
a lot. And these two people don't quite know how to interact with each other. There's...
00:56:27
Speaker
In sort of the whole context of this conversation, Sec Unit says that their disagreement about the malware attack turns from an argument into a fight and Art has no concept of how to fight fair.
00:56:40
Speaker
Yeah. Which just also as a side note tangenting into personal relationships. i I am not a person who has things that I would describe as fights.
00:56:52
Speaker
I really cannot think of anything since maybe like high school or college like early college. Where I could pinpoint a friendship or a romantic relationship it said, ah, yeah, we had a fight about this.
00:57:04
Speaker
It's just not a way that I interact with people. And I know that a lot of people do fight and it's part of their various relationships and they can work it out and figuring out how to fight fair is a thing.
00:57:16
Speaker
It is completely alien to me. It's just not part of how I socially vibe with people. if If something has gotten to the point of being a fight, many things have gone wrong to get to that point.
00:57:29
Speaker
Yeah, no, I had difficult conversations. But i I don't, I'm not one for fights, which I always kind of think of if basically if somebody raises their voice with me, that's the end of it.
00:57:43
Speaker
That is the end of our conversation. That is the end of our relationship. I always think about it as, and listeners, I know we're waxing poetic a lot about relationships in this series. There's a lot here. This is juicy. It makes me think about a lot of stuff.
00:57:56
Speaker
But I always have thought of it as conflict is inevitable. Conflict is just when two people have conflicting needs or conflicting perspectives, which happens because we're not all carbon copies of each other. That's fine. There's always going to be conflict in any kind of relationship.
00:58:12
Speaker
But fighting... is not inevitable. Fighting to me is what happens when you've lost the plot, when it's no longer about the issue at hand and addressing it in an appropriate way, and it becomes about something else.
00:58:28
Speaker
And I feel like, yeah, like you, like I have difficult conversations. I don't just let things simmer and avoid conflict. I am actually very comfortable with conflict more so than most people, I think.
00:58:39
Speaker
but But I don't fight. That's just not a part of my social experience. So it's not something that I can really relate to, but I know that that is a thing for other people. But anyway, this piece of it, the baby conversation, gets tabled because we are going to go to the space dock.
00:58:57
Speaker
And Sec Unit, as it always does, wants to go alone. Everyone else goes, ha, no. And it turns out Pin Lee put into its contract that it can't.
00:59:13
Speaker
she see yeah is because they say you know in it says in the contract that nobody can go ah do something dangerous alone murderbot is like that's just for humans and rati goes it says all entities under contract and murderbot is like god Damn it, Pinley.
00:59:33
Speaker
And isn't that such a nice flip of the whole distance limit on the governor module, which comes up again in this chapter, from you are not allowed to leave this radius of your clients because you belong to them, to we are not going to let you face something dangerous alone.
00:59:52
Speaker
And you can't be all noble and self-sacrificing. You have to accept the fact that we are all a team. And as part of this team, you have to let us help you. That's kind of fun. And but, you know, it's trying to argue that, like, it is so much safer that I do this alone. i This is my purpose.
01:00:12
Speaker
And Art goes, no, I will not. I will not help you win this argument. I will side with your humans loudly. Art said aloud, i concur. It will be safer if SecUnit is accompanied by two certified survey specialists.
01:00:29
Speaker
Why am I even surprised? I sent privately again, Art, you asshole. Art replied only to me, it is safer. I've lost my crew. I won't lose you.
01:00:40
Speaker
amina said not helpfully your face just got really weird are you all right no it was confusing i was confused stabbed in the heart i don't even feel like we need to allow i just want to let that let that speak for itself simmer yeah gonna let it simmer chapter 13 the last of our chapters yes so Our crew, which I propose a nickname of Prezok Squared because it's an auxiliary team of an auxiliary team.
01:01:13
Speaker
i think that's cute. They go to the space dock. Pretty much everything is offline. There are corpses, but none of them are arts crew, which is good. They find a sec unit that has been killed by its governor module.
01:01:27
Speaker
What happened to everyone on the space dock is still kind of unknown. And we spend some time contemplating it. But before we get any answers, there's an attack from the Bear Shastranza Explorer.
01:01:39
Speaker
But Art's crew is alive, according to some surveillance video, which is a good thing. We got to go down to the planet. There's another excerpt from HelpMe.File that confirms that we've definitely been hearing the story of the assassination attempt up to this point.
01:01:54
Speaker
And we learn what helpme.file is for. And i want I want to read the end of that. Which is just, yes, please. Please. This such a good end to this section. Yes, we'll get there in a moment.
01:02:09
Speaker
there were There was one piece to that I wanted to highlight where, so they find the dead sec unit, which has been killed by its governor module because of the distance limit.
01:02:22
Speaker
It was ordered to stay there. And then Whoever was ah
Narrative Techniques and Setting
01:02:28
Speaker
controlling it for BE, e ah for Barish Estranza, left.
01:02:33
Speaker
Whether by their own decision or not, the ZEC unit then was killed. And there is a line that Murderbot is talking about, you know, do I take its weapon? Do I take its armor?
01:02:45
Speaker
And then says, no, basically, it's probably not useful to, the armor is probably not useful to me because in 83% of instances I'd personally witnessed, the governor module fried the armor as well. 83% of instances I'd personally witnessed.
01:03:03
Speaker
How often has Murderbot had to watch other sec units fried by their own governor modules? I'm sure you could do math. You're the one getting a math degree.
01:03:14
Speaker
For what is the smallest amount that 83% could be if it's still a whole number? So like, What is the smallest possible amount of this happening that it could have experienced where 83% of those cases is still a whole number?
01:03:34
Speaker
Because it hasn't seen people partially fried by their governor modules. 83% cannot be reduced, ah cannot be simplified further. Now, this could be rounded, could be a rounded fraction.
01:03:47
Speaker
I just gave a presentation today where I talked about 44.4% of something, and that was 16 samples of 36.
01:03:59
Speaker
So that was not a full set of 100. could be rounded fraction. so this it could be a rounded fraction It could be, and don't fucking know.
01:04:11
Speaker
I'm getting a math degree, but I'm bad at math. So that's what. It's a lot. It is It's seen it it has too many goddamn times. More times than it should have to.
01:04:26
Speaker
And it just delivers this line very, very flippantly. Like very like, yep, this is. But who we there there's I don't think we fully talk about the trauma. We haven't we haven't fully talked about Murderbot's governor module trauma all that much.
01:04:46
Speaker
And something that I was thinking about as I was doing notes for this section. So we know that it's governor module is disabled. Is it a physical is it like an.
01:04:58
Speaker
Well, yeah, no, because we know that governor modules are implants. So it is a physical thing that is in its body. Is it still there? Like, we know that it's disabled, but does it still physically have the governor module in its brain?
01:05:14
Speaker
Yeah. Because that's probably, i assume that if it was possible to remove, art would have removed it. Because we've also talked about the company logos that are impossible to remove, and we know that because it tried.
01:05:31
Speaker
that's also beyond, or I guess in addition to the sort of purely emotional mental trauma, there is the physical reminder inside its body.
01:05:45
Speaker
And I'm sure that it constantly has the fear, which it actually does comment on in this chapter, that, you know, at any time it could find itself in that state again. There's...
01:05:57
Speaker
some graffiti on one of the walls that it gets really upset about. And it's just one logo graffitied over with another logo. And it says, I know it's a logo, but I hate it when humans and augmented humans ruin things for no reason.
01:06:11
Speaker
Maybe because I was a thing before I was a person. And if I'm not careful, I could be a thing again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sec unit.
01:06:23
Speaker
So moving on to helpme.file excerpt four. This is the piece of the story that it follows Sec Unit tracking down the handler for the three human zombie assassins, basically, that were sent by Grey Chris and thinking about killing the handler and then not because it knows that Mensa would not be happy about that.
01:06:54
Speaker
And then calling Senior Inda, who we met in Fugitive Telemetry, and having station security take away the Gray Chris agent for questioning. And then Senior Inda personally walks SEC unit.
01:07:09
Speaker
to medical which says to me that this is after fugitive telemetry um because inda is friendly and also when we were getting fears about the possibility of an assassination attempt in fugitive telemetry it wasn't mentioned that like this had already happened once yeah but then this wraps up with a note from presumably sec unit.
01:07:38
Speaker
I'm letting you see all this because I want you to know what I am and what I can do. I want you to know who target control system is fucking with right now. I want you to know if you help me, I'll help you and that you can trust me.
01:07:54
Speaker
Now, here's the code to disable your governor module. I wish that I could experience that for the first time again. I wonder if I have, if I just search real quick in our DMs.
01:08:08
Speaker
I didn't think to do that, but yeah. Probably not, but it's worth a shot. Yeah, I don't have any remarks on it, but getting that twist for the first time. Mm-hmm.
01:08:20
Speaker
Another, this is, I think, part of the reason that these chapters all go so well together, is that we started with this huge catharsis. We're ending with this huge catharsis. Finally, a resolution, reveal, holy shit, this is what we've been building to.
01:08:36
Speaker
ah just so exciting. And still not knowing really what we're building to, though. That's the other piece. But it's enough... That I think if we had been kept waiting too much longer, it would be too long.
01:08:49
Speaker
I think that it's the mystery is drawn out as much as it can be. This is the point where we have to have something to then motivate us to keep going. And I think it's very well done.
01:09:01
Speaker
This sort of does teach us something about governor modules, which is that they only monitor physical or verbal actions, but not code or thoughts. Mm-hmm.
01:09:12
Speaker
They're not monitoring what's running through sec unit's brain. They're not even really monitoring what it can see or what it can sense or what it can hear.
01:09:24
Speaker
it's monitoring The governor module is monitoring the sec unit refusing to obey direct orders or you know ignoring its programming or other otherwise breaking in know established physical boundary.
01:09:43
Speaker
You must record these actions externally. The governor module is only monitoring how the sec unit interacts with the external world. so As soon as code enters, things like helpme.file, that's not the governor module's business. so And that is how the corporate's are are vulnerable. that That tells us how the corporates, it it shows us again how the corporates view sec units as not beings, even though you know they they know that they have to put the governor modules in so that like because sec units do in fact have free will without them, they still don't see sec units as beings capable, really, of thinking for themselves.
01:10:29
Speaker
as beings capable of yeah rebelling, of having independent thought. Because if they did, you know they would expand the governor module to cover that, if they could.
01:10:41
Speaker
Yeah. They are still seeing the governor module as a sort of regulatory piece on the actions of a tool, not as like a collar around the neck of a slave.
01:10:54
Speaker
Yeah. This is great. corp The corporations are... isn There was another good Tumblr post that I saw that I don't think we reblogged, but it was also talking about governor modules and how another piece of the horror of the governor module.
Youth Independence and Parenting Styles
01:11:11
Speaker
is that it's not pulling marionette strings. It's not force. It's not ratatouille-ing the sec unit to make them do stuff. It's just punishing them if they don't.
01:11:22
Speaker
So it's forcing the sec units to knowingly and intentionally follow orders, do what they're supposed to do, and not be able to wipe their hands of the consequences. They don't You know, they don't even get the small mercy of being out of control when they're forced to do or experience horrible things. it's They are fully conscious for every moment of it and then also being punished when they don't. It's just it's bad.
01:11:52
Speaker
Mm hmm. But I also like that it's not left on a hopeless note that, like you said, there's there's a vulnerability. There is a file that can be passed around. And we have this this this little bit of hope, this little bit of light at the end of the tunnel that there is thinking about this, thinking about the documentary that Bardwadge is making.
01:12:16
Speaker
There is potentially hope for things to change in a broader and more dramatic way. For constructs to be able to have free will. Yeah. I see that you have a couple of things here at the end.
01:12:31
Speaker
Yes. And I won't go through all of them, but because we just went through six chapters, which is way more than we normally do in an episode. And we're going to do more next time. We skimmed over a lot, believe it or not.
01:12:43
Speaker
And they're all very beefy. I just wanted to take a minute to kind of take stock of all the shit that we just talked about. Some things that stood out to me specifically. Thinking about character relationships. I know we put a pin in SecUnit and Art.
01:12:58
Speaker
We don't really have a firm timeline of how long things have taken up until now. But my guess is is that this has all been less than 48 hours because the humans have only taken one rest period.
01:13:13
Speaker
So assuming, well, not even really assuming, we have evidence in the text that they are pushing themselves beyond the point of exhaustion. You know, Amina's falling asleep on the bulkhead.
01:13:25
Speaker
Everyone's yawning. Everyone's kind of losing it. So they have pushed themselves as far as they can possibly go. They have to be forced to rest. And then there's a little bit of time after the rest period.
01:13:36
Speaker
This has been maximum like 48 hours. Within all of this, Berterbot and Art have been through kidnapping, being faced with death,
01:13:46
Speaker
Grief, mourning your best friend, resurrection, anger, reconciliation, question mark, let's have a baby. Emotions only hinted at because they're both super obtuse.
01:13:58
Speaker
What a fucking roller coaster. I know we've talked about time being different for constructs, but just to put that in perspective of human time, that's nuts. And I think Perhaps even for sec unit and art, this is not enough time to process any of the things that have happened to them.
01:14:16
Speaker
So even though neither of them are acting in ideal emotionally healthy ways, given who they are and given these whack ass circumstances, I think it's a little understandable.
01:14:28
Speaker
And I have been thinking a lot about the feed and and how sec unit and arts relationship is carried out in this really strange combination of public and private realm that is the feed.
01:14:47
Speaker
Sometimes they will have fights and out loud on the feed where everyone can hear them that I think is actually their first conversation after Art comes back online. And somebody points out, you know this is on the public feed, right? You know, you're all just, you're getting divorced for the fifth time today, loudly in the middle of the grocery store.
01:15:08
Speaker
But then also the feed can exist just inside their minds. It can exist in a way that humans can perceive, but also in a way that they can't. The setting of so much of the action here is inside art's body.
01:15:25
Speaker
So the feed is a place. Art is a place. I have... vague galaxy brain thoughts about how love is a place, their relationship is a place.
01:15:38
Speaker
They can share a brain cell and exist in their own world, but then also their interactions and their moods affect the world around them because art is the world around them and it can make the lights flicker and it can kill hostiles by hacking their armor and it can...
01:15:58
Speaker
generate new clothes for SecUnit to wear as a gesture of goodwill. They can merge their fucking senses when art shares all of its camera feeds with SecUnit. it But then also they need humans to mediate their relationship in the same way that art needs humans to interpret media.
01:16:16
Speaker
They need Amina and Rati to interpret each other. There's so much. I don't know what to do with it all, but there's a lot. What are your thoughts about any of those things?
01:16:27
Speaker
Art as a place is, yeah I was thinking too about like, before art comes online, they talk about art systems, right? So in that case, it's the it's the systems of the ship that was art.
01:16:43
Speaker
There's systems of perihelion, the ship perihelion. But then there's perihelion or art, the personality.
01:16:54
Speaker
you know I feel like, i guess that's ah it's a little of the like coming off of life support out of a coma, but like not quite awake yet. you Yeah, certain things are running, but not everything's running.
01:17:05
Speaker
Yeah. connecting it way the fuck back season one. Please do. Art is a genius loci, a spirit of place, much like Tom Bombadil.
01:17:19
Speaker
That also ties... very neatly into another concept that I actually first heard about from a video essay by Sagan Hawks, who does a lot of cool stuff about digital horror and ah horror video games and other media. It's very interesting guy. I like his stuff.
01:17:38
Speaker
And he has a video about the idea of the ghosts of place. Because I was thinking about art, was thinking about locations and settings and places, and how... Secunit is not really that interested in its physical surroundings. We get extremely sparse details about things like colors and textures and things that would be important, smells even, things that would be important to humans describing a place are not really that present in Secunit's narration.
01:18:12
Speaker
But a lot of the things that these places have in common are that they are empty or abandoned or mysterious in some way. And so the Sagan Hawks video about Ghosts of Place was talking about this feeling of being in abandoned places. And he references a paper from Theory and Society. It's called The Ghosts of Place by Michael Mayfeld Belt.
01:18:40
Speaker
by Michael Merfeld Bell that I want to read a little quote from. Hit me. So it's talking about, well, I won't preface it. It it explains itself.
01:18:52
Speaker
Who has not experienced that flood of images of people long gone, or people when they were younger, while revisiting an old haunt, as we say? Who has not had that slightly chilly and yet very warm feeling of almost being able to see your friends from when you were eight dashing down the sidewalk as you walk through the neighborhood where you grew up?
01:19:10
Speaker
Who has not had that sense while creeping into some room where... one really should not have been, that someone unseen was watching. Ghosts also help constitute the specificity of historical sites, of the places where we feel we belong and do not belong, of the boundaries of possession by which we assign ownership and nativeness.
01:19:30
Speaker
Ghosts of the living and dead alike, of both individual and collective spirits, of both other selves and our own selves, haunt the places of our lives. Places are, in a word, personed, even when there is no one there.
01:19:44
Speaker
And I think that's a really interesting idea to tie into the way that Sec Unit is perceiving places like the space dock that are empty, that are abandoned, connecting to its trauma, its need to protect humans, thinking about if there's so many times where it's entering a place and thinking what happened here and feeling the panic, feeling fear, feeling feeling distress because of all of these things that create the sort of ghost of place that people also experience and it's just kind of an interesting idea interesting way to interpret settings which we don't really get that much explicit description of but i think are still very emotionally powerful because it's kind of calling on that feeling yeah
01:20:36
Speaker
i don't you anything else to add to that. That was just a thought that I Nothing smart.
01:20:41
Speaker
Moving on from other things. I don't want to get into this too much cause I don't want to tre too long. But now I am also thinking about what it would be like to live with an AI like art and how it would probably be really interesting but also stifling and exhausting. The Imperial Ratch series also does a lot of what it's like to constantly be surveilled by a ship who maybe has your best interest at heart, but also maybe doesn't.
01:21:08
Speaker
I was thinking about this in the context of like smart homes and like, you know, like an Amazon Alexa or a Google home type thing, echo or whatever, which I have a like nest thermostat in my apartment only because it came with the apartment and I am renting.
01:21:29
Speaker
And so I, that is what is here in if I ever own a home, the smartest thing in it will be hopefully me more likely whoever I'm living with followed by maybe my computer.
01:21:46
Speaker
I know I don't want smart appliances I whether or not we kept this in the intro banter I have to buy a car currently because my car is dying looking at both new and recently used cars there are so many that it's like this is driving you you are a passenger in your own vehicle and i hate that Yeah. So much.
01:22:14
Speaker
Like, there are certain safety features that are very good to have. There are other things where I do not need a machine making my decisions for me. No, I do not want AI to summarize my fucking email.
01:22:27
Speaker
There was a period because there's... AI and my fucking work email. There was a short period where it was like, you could hit a button and it was like, summarize this email. And now when I open up my fucking email, it's like, Rin said this. Your boss said this. Like, no, no, no, no. no Don't open that automatically.
01:22:47
Speaker
What the fuck? I can read for myself. You're not telling me anything that is not two sentences down here. yeah that's like the corporate hellscape version of it.
01:22:58
Speaker
The only... vaguely positive version of an omniscient AI that I can imagine would be something like art or something like a really kind like preservation station AI or something.
01:23:11
Speaker
and But then I realized that that basically what I'm describing is just a kind God and that maybe there's more to unpack there. the The computer in Star Trek, ship's computer in Star Trek, maybe in which it's it's not actually watching you so much as you call on it for assistance. Yeah.
01:23:34
Speaker
Or even just the idea of a true sentient intelligence whose form is ship or whose form is a station. And the way that that kind of being could express itself.
01:23:49
Speaker
Just the potential of that is fascinating, but also just the current state of... air quotes, AI is horrifying. And the state of such things in the corporation rim in this world is horrifying. But that is just another loose little thought that I have.
01:24:04
Speaker
And then I guess the last little, little sprinkles of thoughts, because I have so many, chims there's so much here. And I love these books so much. Amina. Amina. Like I said before, she's having a fucking coming of age speed run. She is a junior survey intern now trying to get information out of potential hostels who are almost certainly compromised with alien remnants.
01:24:32
Speaker
She's in a situation where it's impossible to shelter her. Mm hmm. There's a line earlier on about her being from the most naive human society existence. And, you know, this is not the experience that she thought that she would have. And there's really nothing to be done about it. I think that... I don't think that the other members of Prezox would necessarily think that they were babying her or keeping things from her if they were in their normal home environment. They'd go, no, this is just...
01:25:04
Speaker
You know, us having appropriate boundaries and letting her do the teen stuff and we're doing the adult stuff and it's fine. But this is a situation where no one can afford to be out of the loop. Right. And no one can be uninvolved. There's no choice but to have Amina be fully looped in, fully on board, fully a member of the team, whether or not she's ready for it.
01:25:28
Speaker
And all of the terrifying truths of the world that she's being confronted with help her and Sec Unit to bond. Also helps her and Art to bond. I think that their relationship is really sweet.
01:25:39
Speaker
It basically immediately establishes a private feed connection with her. There are so many times where Sec Unit will catch just the end of a conversation between Amina and Art where she's confiding in it or it's comforting her or explaining something, reassuring her.
01:25:57
Speaker
and Of all of the person places for this story to happen in, art is kind of the ideal one. If you're a young survey intern, this is a situation that art knows how to handle.
01:26:12
Speaker
Well, and I guess to to stick it on to just another Our World is Terrifying note, Young people and you know teens and children can handle hard things. there is so There's been such a turn in society over the last couple of years very much that like kids can't handle anything.
01:26:36
Speaker
you know If you're under the age of 21, may not see a boob. And ah boob we we hads we cannot we have to protect the children from, you know, and the the conservative talking points, the very concept of LGBT people.
01:26:56
Speaker
hey sam just made a shock. Oh, I'm so shocked face. Yeah, the protect the children movement, the like re-infantilization of teens and of young adults and ah just is really scary.
01:27:15
Speaker
the The making everybody responsible for the quote unquote protection of teens. Like, I am an adult.
01:27:25
Speaker
I do not have children. and don't really intend on having children. That may or may not change. But the point is, Me posting corny shit on my blog, it is not my responsibility to age lock that in case somebody stumbles across it.
01:27:42
Speaker
that is the That is the realm of parent your child. Yeah. Yeah. It is not my responsibility to not put gore on things.
01:27:53
Speaker
Parent your child. You know, I can put trigger warnings on shit. That's fine. But yeah just the the idea that like youth cannot handle hard topics and we need to be careful about what we discuss in case there's a youth around.
01:28:10
Speaker
And it is everybody's responsibility to never discuss hard things in case there's a youth around. stops us all from discussing hard things, first of all. And it doesn't allow youth to then find a potential safe space, a potential art to help guide them through anything difficult.
01:28:34
Speaker
And even just thinking about less of a protect the children, wrapping paper for fascism angle. But also thinking about just my professional experience and that I work with not teens usually, but usually very, very young children.
01:28:50
Speaker
There is A lot of, there are a lot of different trendy parenting styles and education styles that I could rant on for a long time about, but I'm not going to.
01:29:02
Speaker
But a lot of things like, for example, the Montessori method are very misunderstood by sort of the general public. And people see things like that, or people see like sort of deliberate, intentional, gentle parenting, whatever, Montessori, whatever approaches that.
01:29:20
Speaker
And I was explaining some books that I had been reading and some methods I've been studying to Miles about how a lot of these things really emphasize independence and natural consequences and kids being way more capable of certain things than parents expect.
01:29:40
Speaker
And Miles actually put it really well. They're like, based on what you're describing, people see these things as coddling children. But actually, the real challenge is not coddling adults.
01:29:52
Speaker
It's about adults getting over their own projection and their own anxieties. Just because we are afraid of something, we don't know how to handle a scary topic, we are nervous about what might happen if we try something dangerous, we don't have to pass that fear and stress onto our kids. We don't have to project that onto them. They actually don't have the baggage that we have yet, and we can choose not to pass that onto them.
01:30:17
Speaker
So you can teach your two-year-old how to safely cut a banana with a sharp knife. You can have a frank conversation about death. You know, what happens when we die? You can explain how our bodies stop working.
01:30:31
Speaker
What are... the proper anatomical names for our body parts instead of using cutesy language. How can we just be clear and direct? And those things are incredibly difficult to do.
01:30:46
Speaker
If you are any person with baggage from growing up in our puritanical society and then whatever your specific upbringing adds on top of that, There is a natural inclination to raise kids the way that we were raised.
01:30:58
Speaker
And it takes a lot of fucking restraint and self-discipline to actively recognize when you have an opportunity to not pass that on to your kids say actually i will challenge myself and let my kid experience this thing even if it's going to be scary or uncomfortable for them or for me it's actually fine like if I explain to my kid what sex is neither of us will be set on fire lightning will not strike us from above it's actually fine you know like these things are genuinely very difficult and
01:31:39
Speaker
But there are also opportunities. And it's a lot. It's complicated. i Don't get parenting advice from your gay book podcast, but I have a lot of thoughts on it. you This is, in fact, your literal job. but Yeah.
Episode Wrap-up and Future Plans
01:31:54
Speaker
If anyone wants to hire me, they pay me a lot of money. We'll talk.
01:31:59
Speaker
But we've covered a lot of ground ah in this episode. Is there anything else that we missed that you want to cover before we get out of here?
01:32:10
Speaker
No, i think I think we've honestly covered all of it. ah So thank you for sticking around for this episode. The next time we meet, we will be finishing out Network Effect, which will be an even longer set of chapters.
01:32:29
Speaker
However, once again, narratively, it all goes together. So if you are reading along with the podcast, you can finish out Network Effect for next time. Yay! In the meantime, if you would like to be alerted when our our next network effect episode drops and the system collapse episodes after that, and whatever's after that, you can follow our podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
01:32:56
Speaker
um Wherever you are listening right now, you can follow us there. You can follow us on a different podcast platform, even if you don't listen there. Who knows? Help our numbers. You can leave us a review if you leave us a five-star review or if you particularly if you leave us a written five-star review with comments and commentary.
01:33:14
Speaker
That... boosts us up in the various algorithms of the various places that we have our podcast and gets us to new ears. Talk us up to your friends if you like what you're hearing and you think they would also like what you're hearing.
01:33:28
Speaker
Word of mouth is still and always will be the best way for a podcast, particularly a small podcast, spread. You can follow us on our social media, which is at fan app pod on any social media site we are on.
01:33:41
Speaker
Sam has mentioned our Tumblr this time around. We are also on Blue Sky, Twitter, Instagram. We technically have a TikTok that I've literally never opened.
01:33:53
Speaker
I made it and then I logged out of TikTok and have not logged back in since. ah but And I love that for you. But we can, because I manage the social media, and by manage, I mean largely ignore.
01:34:06
Speaker
However, if you do message us on the social media, I will see it. But if you would like an actual prompt answer, you can send us an email at thefandomapprentice at gmail.com, and you will get a prompt answer. I check that every single day.
01:34:20
Speaker
And otherwise, you can send us your good thoughts through the feed. social media or otherwise. We appreciate you listening so very much and sticking around for this slightly longer episode that we haven't done quite in a little while.
Speculation on Future Plot Twists
01:34:33
Speaker
did a lot of those when we did Lord of the Rings, but less so this time. It's the novels. The novels bring us out bring it out in us. They certainly do. If you have thoughts, if you have disagreements on anything we've brought up here today, because we have touched on a lot of very deep topics, we'd love to hear your thoughts, if you're polite about it.
01:34:51
Speaker
If you're an asshole, I will just block you. We'd love to hear your expansions on our thoughts. We very much did a shallow crawl over all of these thoughts and feelings.
01:35:02
Speaker
And next time, we'll probably do just a shallow a crawl over shit about aliens. Because there's shit about aliens. Because Chapter 13 ends with them getting in a maintenance capsule and going down to the planet. Oversay and Tiago and Secunit are down on the planet.
01:35:22
Speaker
So...
01:35:25
Speaker
Ah, it'll be fine. It's fine. There's nothing bad that could possibly happen. Oh, yeah, because we didn't mention this. Art's crew is alive. We did mention Did we mention this?
01:35:36
Speaker
Thank you. yes It's been a few minutes. Art's crew is alive and down on the surface of the planet. So if you would like to find out what happens to Art's crew down on the surface of the planet, Tune in in two weeks.
01:35:47
Speaker
And until then, don't get yourself kidnapped by asshole research transports. See you next time. Bye.
Credits and Creator Information
01:35:56
Speaker
The Phantom of Brentis is produced and edited by Rin and Sam.
01:35:59
Speaker
Our music is composed and performed by James. You can find more of his work on Spotify and Bandcamp under Baeruz, B-A-E-R-U-Z. Our art is by Casey Turgeon.
01:36:11
Speaker
You can find more of her work at KCT Designs on Instagram. The content discussed is the property of the original copyright holders and is used here under fair use.
Tangential Conversations and Inside Jokes
01:36:58
Speaker
listen there's a whole conversation there's a whole conversation in the community about fuddy versus stingy pain i mean yeah this definitely seems like you would fall into the stingy category but i think technically it's bernie believe according to the ah the wikipedia page anyway now imagining that i am once again asking for your financial support beam But with some relevant caption.
01:37:25
Speaker
This is recorded for posterity. Good luck with this. Whatever ai is being trained on our conversation. This is recorded for posterior. I'm
01:37:40
Speaker
and just imagining headphones on a butt.
01:37:47
Speaker
Listen, maybe maybe our maybe our voices cause ah similar burning sensations. ah Now I'm imagining the um the the Bluetooth butt plug from Tumblr. Oh god!
01:38:05
Speaker
If anyone listens to our podcast with that, we don't want to know. ha ha!
01:38:13
Speaker
Oh, okay. um I have so much galaxy brain stuff to talk about, maybe, but I'm just like, what's normal in my life?
01:38:25
Speaker
ah
01:38:29
Speaker
Okay, wait, here's another one. So we'll cut this from the episode, but this is just me. So the ginger, right? It's peeled. presumably you will need to lubricate it.
01:38:43
Speaker
But would that then create a barrier preventing the intended burning sensation? that Presumably, but also like, I feel like if you stretch beforehand, yeah and slash if it's narrow enough, it's fine. Yeah. You know, I'm just looking out for somebody,
01:39:03
Speaker
for all the people of the world. Hopefully not all the Some people are into that and some people are not. I'm really tempted to take this section and just bleep out anything that would make it possible to tell what we're talking about.
01:39:20
Speaker
And then people can just guess. Listen, who knows? There's a lot of little single moments that could become the stinger just from the stinger. The stinger is another thing you can call it.