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Decoding Greenwashing: A Dive into Environmental Communications
60 Plays2 years ago
Get ready for an insightful journey into the realm of sustainability and communications with our esteemed guest, Angela Boskovic, an authority in environmental communication and the founder of EcoCore and LLC. We promise to equip you with a sound understanding of environmental communication, a discipline that dissects humanity's perception of nature and the content that arises from these perceptions. This episode also throws light on the global issue of greenwashing, the process by which a company misleadingly presents itself as more sustainable than it actually is, and we discuss ways to hold such businesses accountable.
We turn the spotlight onto deceptive marketing strategies in the sustainable product sector, as Angela reveals how corporations use percentages, natural ingredients, and hollow eco-claims to appear greener than they actually are. We also scrutinize the misuse of the term "eco" in product labeling and how such branding can misguide the consumer, while also addressing the role of regulatory bodies in curbing the abuse of ESG (Environmental, Social, and Corporate Governance) standards as a marketing tool.
Lastly, we underscore the urgency of clear and honest eco-communications, emphasizing that businesses should start from a negative standpoint in their journey towards sustainability. We investigate the role of ethical marketing in promoting sustainability, discourage the use of shaming techniques in customer communications, and illustrate how businesses can leverage transparency and ethical communication to safeguard their market presence in the future. This episode is a must-listen for those seeking to understand the complex interplay between communications and sustainability.
🕑 💡 KEY MOMENTS
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(0:00:10) - Communications and Greenwashing in Sustainability
(0:11:24) - Deceptive Marketing in Sustainable Products
(0:19:23) - The Importance of Transparent Eco Communications
(0:31:07) - The Importance of Sustainable Business Practices
🌍 SUSTAINABILITY PODCAST CREATED BY NEW PERSPECTIVE
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This podcast is proudly sponsored by New Perspective Marketing, a dynamic growth marketing agency in Boston, MA, celebrating 20 years in business. We help sustainably focused B2B organizations grow their brands and scale up revenue. If you or your organization is looking to grow, visit npws.com for more info.
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Transcript
Introduction to Green New Perspectives and Angela Boschkowicz
00:00:10
Speaker
Hello everyone, my name is Donja and you're watching another episode of Green New Perspectives Launchpad, a webcast series where we talk about sustainability in different industries. The topic of today's episode is going to be communications in sustainability sector.
00:00:25
Speaker
And my guest is Angela Boschkowicz, an environmental communication educator based in Montenegro, Europe and the founder of EkoKorian LLC. Through one-on-one consulting and team workshops, she helps small businesses, bigger businesses and green NGOs to craft communication plans and marketing campaigns without giving away to greenwashing, which is really important these days.
00:00:49
Speaker
Angela holds a master degree in environmental policy and a bachelor degree in journalism and she has a really diverse working experience from copywriting to project management and event organization. Today Angela and I are going to discuss what businesses can do to make sure that they don't miss the point when making sustainability related claims and embracing eco-friendly messages. So stay tuned and listen to what Angela has to say.
Understanding Environmental Communications vs. Marketing
00:01:19
Speaker
Well, hello, Angela. How are you? Hello, Dunja. Thank you for having me doing great so far. How are you? Oh, great as well. So our subject today, the topic of the webcast is communications in, let's say, sustainability sector, if something like that exists at all. But I mean, everyone is doing sustainability claims these days. So let's talk about that. What are
00:01:47
Speaker
eco-communications or environmental communications. Let's start with that because a lot of people are, let's say, confusing environmental communications with basic marketing. So I think there's a huge difference there. So let's talk about that. Yeah.
00:02:05
Speaker
I agree. There's a whole mishmash of everything right now and it's so difficult to actually clarify anything because different people have different definitions and then you actually need to gather all those definitions and make sense out of it.
Content Creation in Environmental Fields
00:02:20
Speaker
In short, environmental communication is this beautiful and growing field where we study how different groups of people perceive nature and perceive humans in relation to nature. And based on that, what kind of written audio, video and different types of content do they create?
00:02:40
Speaker
So we are talking, researching what people believe to be their place in this beautiful planet, but also to analyze their content and to work in creating that content.
Addressing Greenwashing in Marketing
00:02:56
Speaker
So we're talking environmental journalism, environmental marketing or sustainability marketing, different research positions, creating behavior change related campaigns, et cetera.
00:03:09
Speaker
There's so many people, there's different types of expertise in this great area at the moment. So you have people specializing in education on different labels. You have people specializing in ethical marketing relating to sustainability. You have people specializing in science, journalism,
00:03:32
Speaker
when they cover environmental topics. You have environmental copywriters, so all these different, and then of course you have artists. I don't want to neglect the creative work, so different types of art forms, and the area called artivism, so activism through the lens of the artistry.
00:03:52
Speaker
For me, my favorite topic at the moment and what I work on the most is the topic of greenwashing and working with small businesses and NGOs on educational campaigns that have to do with environmental protection.
00:04:08
Speaker
Well, I think that's a good place to start this topic. So let's talk about greenwashing. Why is it related to corporate marketing these days? And what you said, like you're working with small businesses and NGOs, but maybe we can use this space to tell the bigger ones what they need to do when they're communicating their messages related to sustainability or environmentalism.
00:04:36
Speaker
Sure thing, I would love that because actually the biggest organization, so the big names in business, the big name in politics as well, because green washing knows no industries. So they are the ones whose content we see the most and whose content we see most often. And they are the ones actually showing us, aha, this is what sustainability marketing should look like. And we have really big problems if what they are doing is not a good example to follow.
Defining and Identifying Greenwashing
00:05:05
Speaker
And that's where greenwashing comes in. Essentially, it is the phenomenon where someone's way of presenting themselves to their contractors, to their clients, to their audience, does not match the actual way in which they do business.
00:05:24
Speaker
the wording that they use, the adjectives that they use, the vocabulary of sustainability is there, but the action behind the scenes, the way in which they do business, the way in which they get our supplies, the way in which they pay their employees and subcontractors, so that does not actually match the eco claims.
00:05:44
Speaker
they have appropriated. What most definitions will say is, and what I also believe in, is that it is a purposeful activity, meaning we have the idea and the wish to actually deceive the public. We do want to be presenting ourselves as more sustainable than we actually are.
00:06:08
Speaker
But lately in the past, let's say a year or so, I have noticed working with especially smaller businesses where there is a solo partner or three people doing all kinds of different roles that the intention does not necessarily have to be there.
00:06:25
Speaker
but the impact is there. So you may actually be having a very narrow definition of what it means to be a sustainable business. Maybe you think if I donate a hundred euros to a certain business, that's enough, or to a certain NGO, or if I donate for reforestation, if I donate for a cleanup activity, that's enough and I'm in a surplus and I don't have to change anything. So
00:06:53
Speaker
the intent does not have to be to deceive someone, but we're looking at the impact. We're looking at whether on the other side someone actually thinks you're most sustainable than you are. And that's why I said at the beginning that it's so important to mind our words and to make sure that we are not deceiving people and presenting ourselves as more environmentally responsible and more gentle to the planet than we actually are.
00:07:22
Speaker
Eco claims are usually not regulated at all. So companies or individuals or small businesses are not held accountable for greenwashing
Consumer Skepticism and Education on Green Claims
00:07:34
Speaker
actually. And it's interesting what you said, like they're mostly doing this, that's like popular in America. They're mostly doing those carbon offsetting services, like you've mentioned,
00:07:48
Speaker
like a additional activity and then just promoting them as sustainable but not doing anything else to reduce their carbon emissions or to or anything else paid to pay their
00:08:03
Speaker
workers more or well, do some other environmentally good services. So what would you like to say? What do you what would you have to say about those eco claims not being regulated? And do you think there's something is going to change? Are they going to be regulated in the future? Or are they are they getting regulated at the moment somewhere in this world? Because we have a lot of greenwashing going on around there.
00:08:33
Speaker
It's true, as we said, at the very opening, at the moment, it is so messy and so difficult to orient yourself and to navigate through all these claims when it comes to marketing your products, marketing your services.
00:08:49
Speaker
Sorry, I just have to interrupt you with something. Do you know some statistics about what the customers, what the people, the consumers think about that? Do they believe the greenwashing? Or do they see through it? Are they becoming more suspicious when they see some green claims? Because it's not a new practice. Greenwashing is here for 30 years or more.
00:09:14
Speaker
For more, actually, we have witnesses of the mismatch between what's being said and what was being done in the 60s and 70s of the past century. So it's nothing new. It's just that we found ways to put it into words and to create some kind of listing of different types of greenwashing in the more recent years.
00:09:40
Speaker
we are becoming more aware that before people used to think, well, better something than nothing. Now we're becoming more aware of the fact that not every something is equal. So not every type of activity is necessarily the best and the most appropriate activity for the certain
00:10:00
Speaker
situation and the context. Now, let's go in order. Yes, there are some types. There were some opinion polls being done on whether people want to purchase something that is more eco-friendly based on what the label says.
Issues with Eco Labels and Misleading Packaging
00:10:18
Speaker
And the answer was predominantly yes. However, I believe around 70% or maybe more, I forgot the exact percentage of people at the same
00:10:29
Speaker
research during the same research said that they do not think that they have the necessary skills to recognize whether something is greenwashing or not. So we have this huge gap, gap that needs to be filled by education institutions at every level, gap that needs to be filled by customer protection organizations that they need to do education for customers
00:10:54
Speaker
to actually be able to recognize what a certain label means because you said a lot about labels. It's true. There are a few problems there. I'll mention a few of them. Number one, it's heavily unregulated.
00:11:11
Speaker
meaning you can put anything on the label that's not quantifiable. And if it's not quantifiable, there's no way for me to actually check whether it's true or not. For example, you see a juice company saying 100% happy to see you.
00:11:31
Speaker
So, for example, it's a natural juice, but you cannot put that it's 100% natural, because if you look at the ingredient place, that's not true. But you can put that the juice is 100% happy to see me. So, because we know from behavior sciences that people like percentages, you like to see 100%, it looks more trustworthy, or you look
00:11:54
Speaker
And you like to see zero you like to see certain you know absolute numbers some weather everything or nothing so hundred percent or none of it so you see a hundred percent. Organic extract of the certain plan but then you look at the ingredients and you see that.
00:12:11
Speaker
that plant is the minor ingredient among all the rest. So it's not 100% organic product, but just that one ingredient is 100% organic. Or you see 0% reason to worry, or 100% supported by our employees. So
00:12:30
Speaker
All those claims for me as a consumer mean nothing when it comes to whether the product is actually safe to use and whether the product is actually sustainably made. They tell me absolutely nothing about the way in which you treat your ingredients, way in which you treat your employees, way in which you treat your suppliers. So I know none of it, but there are those claims.
00:12:53
Speaker
Then a big problem for which I am a witness of because my company is called Ecoquarian, so there's that eco prefix in the name. When I was registering my company, no one asked me to provide additional papers because I was going to put eco in the name, which means that you can create all kinds of products for
00:13:19
Speaker
which you don't even intend to apply for certain certifications or use best practice examples in the field. But you can put something natural, organic. Well, not organic. For organic, you need to have certain standards, but like handmade or something like that. So an adjective that tells us that there's some more care put into the products than if that was just a random name.
00:13:48
Speaker
And you put it in the name of the brand, in the name of the company. Conscious is also a popular adjective right now. So you put it there and then suddenly the whole product line has more weight in the eyes of the community. Then we have the branding issues of colouring, where we see a green packaging and we automatically think it's more sustainable.
00:14:12
Speaker
where in fact, I always say to my clients, like, please let's diversify at this point, like, let's use white, let's use blue, because the sooner we tell to the wider audiences that sustainable products can be found in various shapes and colors, and that it's not green that they should by default use as their point of reference for the best and most sustainable product there is,
00:14:38
Speaker
So the sooner we do it, the easier I hope it will be for people to actually get used to actually not ending with, aha, this is green, I'm done. But looking at the label, looking at the ingredients list.
00:14:53
Speaker
So it's a very long process ahead of
Regulatory Approaches to Greenwashing
00:14:56
Speaker
us, I believe. I believe that we are not even close to regulating the industry in the next, let's say, three to five years. The EU is doing the most when it comes to international regulations in that field. And as for, let's say, national examples, I would
00:15:18
Speaker
the UK is a good example because last year they have adopted an act that is directly related to greenwashing and through which you finally have some kind of listing or here's what I need to look for if the product to check if this brand is making greenwashing claims or not.
00:15:43
Speaker
Unfortunately, just like with ESG standard, just like with many other things, at the moment, different areas of the world, different businesses, different organizations have their own views on whether something is greenwashing or not. For me, it is not a matter of a subjective thing. I think there is a list.
00:16:06
Speaker
And I would love to talk about it more in detail in some future episode or another opportunity because the number one thing for me would be whether you are actively trying as a business, no matter what you offer, to treat with most kindness and the least harm possible everything and everyone involved. That's number one.
00:16:33
Speaker
Then number two, whether you are actively trying to dissociate your work from exploitation of fossil fuel industry, and then number from exploitation of fossil fuels, pardon, and then three, whether you are actively trying not to be tied to mass production. So is there an upper limit on what you do? Are you striving towards scalability? Scalability is the big word, like,
00:17:00
Speaker
Right now, everyone wants to scale their business and to grow as much as possible in the least amount of time possible. But that's not sustainable on a planet and in a system that has a limited number of resources. So do you have an actual plan to put the cap on how many products there are going to be in the line or they are going to be produced as long as there is the need for them?
00:17:24
Speaker
So do you have a cap in mind for the number of employees? So how big is your business going to grow? So all of these things, these types of megalomania, are you actively trying to remove them from your business?
Transparency in ESG Claims
00:17:41
Speaker
It's somehow natural to talk about ESG as you mentioned it. ESG stands for environmental, social and governance and it's let's say a standard that corporations and big businesses need to achieve in order to be more sustainable because well corporations are amongst
00:18:02
Speaker
highest polluters, as science.arc says. But even though it's not easy being green, when we look at the ESG claims of different companies, it would seem like they're doing such a great job and that sustainability is something so easily achievable.
00:18:26
Speaker
and only let's say maybe a year ago regulatory agencies in the US and abroad are cracking down on companies that use ESG as a marketing ploy to exploit the customers or investors because a lot of money is investing in the ESG to make companies sustainable, right? To motivate them to be sustainable. So what do you have to say?
00:18:51
Speaker
to companies who are doing that like intentionally or not intentionally because we have so much green marketing, greenwashing marketing that I honestly believe a lot of people in companies who are doing marketing are not knowing what you know.
00:19:06
Speaker
Their intentions might not be bad, but they don't know what they're supposed to do because all of the other companies are doing the same sort of thing. No one is thinking through the messages that they're sending. So in the end, they become greenwashing, even if they wanted it or not. So what would be your advice for the ESG claims, ESG goals?
00:19:29
Speaker
You said it all very well. So we come back to that intention versus impact. So even when the intention is there, the impact might be that it's in the end more of a green washing claim than it is actually related to someone actively trying to make a difference.
00:19:53
Speaker
When it comes to advice, I would start with transparency. We kind of got used to the fact that when you're doing business, you're putting your best foot forward through your marketing, through your branding, but lately,
00:20:10
Speaker
the practices have been changing. So we are becoming aware of the fact that it's not enough to do just an occasional donation or to give your employees seed packages so that they can plant their pencils back at home or something like that.
00:20:28
Speaker
but we are becoming aware that we are not starting from zero and then you do that donation activity and suddenly you're in some kind of imaginary environmental surplus. Now we're starting from a large minus and we have Earth overshoot day as a witness of that. So if we become aware from the fact, okay, my starting point is the minus depending on my industry, depending on the size of my company, depending on my country,
00:20:55
Speaker
that minus is further or less far away from the zero. Let's start with what do I do in my business? Sorry, what kind of circular practices do I adopt that have to do with my resources? What kind of policies do I adopt in relation to my employees and to the management structure of the business, et cetera, so that I'm closer to that zero? So let's start with that.
00:21:24
Speaker
But at the same time,
00:21:27
Speaker
how do I, through my copy, make sure that the public is aware of the fact that we know we're starting from zero. We're not pretending we're in a surplus. And that's the big one. What we are seeing right now is people pretending to be in this kind of a surplus. Everything's fine. Let's just switch to sustainable consumerism thing that is not even possible. When you say it, it's not even possible as a phenomenon because consumerism implies that
00:21:57
Speaker
The number one thing is the continual shopping, the continual consumption.
Sustainability vs. Consumerism
00:22:05
Speaker
And there is no sustainable world
00:22:09
Speaker
where that activity is the primary fuel for the industry and the primary fuel for a good life. So there's none of that. And that's why we need transparency. So I would really love to see, usually small businesses are better at this.
00:22:28
Speaker
But it's easier for them, I'm aware. Let me see where you are. So data is a big one here. For example, I see whenever I go to the truck store or to any type of store really at this point, or a website where there's products being offered.
00:22:49
Speaker
we will be let's say carbon neutral or zero waste by 2050. Okay, where are you now? Are you at 1%? Are you at 30%? Quantify the journey that you have to take and let me know where you are right now. So because
00:23:08
Speaker
you saying that you will be zero waste by 2050 could be like me saying, I'm gonna run a marathon in 10 years. But if you don't know whether I'm doing anything to run at least one kilometer right now, that claim means nothing. So let me know about your journey. What are you doing? What are you yet to do? Sorry, what do you need for those things that are not being done? Do you need expertise? Do you need additional financial resources?
00:23:35
Speaker
Do you lack subcontractors that can fill certain gaps? Because I've heard of that as well. So for example, you're looking for a certain product that has certain credentials so that you can incorporate it into your product line. However, there's no subcontractor that can fill the quantity that you need and provide the amount that you need. So you turn to someone who can.
00:24:00
Speaker
But who doesn't have the credentials? So does that mean that you need to change your business model? In most cases, for large corporations and for larger businesses, the answer is yes. So as soon as your model becomes tied to slowing down and to putting the upper limit on something, that means that the business model needs to be revised. It needs some kind of a recycling or upcycling itself.
00:24:29
Speaker
So number one would be transparency. Number two would be continual education. I'm aware that for some people there are positions that they hold in their businesses that they do not necessarily have formal education for or any type of education but they just you know
00:24:52
Speaker
were thrown into the mix and they were just, they had to swim. So because my idea is always that people start with the best intentions. So because I believe that people in most cases have the best intentions, let's back those intentions up with some courses, education, trainings.
00:25:12
Speaker
related to recognizing greenwashing, recognizing empty words and how to recognize those words and switch them for something that's quantifiable or for something that actually holds weight or for something that actually tells me something about your product or service, so that it's not empty, so that it's not vague, and so that it doesn't portray to the public that the only way to
00:25:39
Speaker
achieve sustainability is through purchasing your product. So that's a big one. The additional big one is ethical marketing. And there's so many people online at the moment doing wonderful things about that. But if you're using shaming techniques and using megalomania in your approach,
00:26:01
Speaker
to marketing and sales, that's also going to reflect poorly on your business and on its sustainability. Because you can be mindful about the resources. But if people feel like crap after they've seen your sales pitch, then you still have a problem. You still have a sustainability-related problem. Because for me, I always go back to that definition that sustainability has three branches.
00:26:29
Speaker
ecological and ethical and social. So for all three of them to be filled out properly, you need to be mindful both of the resources and of the people from both sides of your business and professional routine, so to say.
Holistic Business Approach and Long-Term Transparency Benefits
00:26:47
Speaker
Now, I would like to conclude this part with some words to be mindful of.
00:26:53
Speaker
Let's say, be mindful of megalomania. So is your product going to save the planet or is it just going to be a more kind choice than what we can find on the majority of the market?
00:27:11
Speaker
then is your product the best? Is your product the most sustainable? So be mindful of those superlatives and actually come back to them and see, am I actually able to back those claims with what's happening in the real world? Then be mindful of the packaging. So
00:27:35
Speaker
Do you put some kinds of birds and pandas and different types of animals that we associate with eco-friendly products on products where there are none?
00:27:47
Speaker
Then, if you are, let's say, looking for a sponsor, a donor, an investor, be mindful of where that money is coming from, because you can have the best idea in the world, but that can be financed with fossil fuel money or war money.
00:28:07
Speaker
There can be very huge issues with that. I see that, for example, in the events industry, where you see a sustainable themed event, but then you see who the main sponsor is and there's a huge gap. And suddenly the whole event loses credibility, even in the case when the speakers are amazing, because it's being financed by people who we associate with pollution, whether it's plastic pollution, water pollution, et cetera.
00:28:37
Speaker
And we're seeing a lot of that, yeah. We're seeing huge amounts of that, exactly. Yes. So being mindful and kind of dissecting your whole business into these small chunks, and you're constantly asking yourself, is this the kindest way? Is it the kindest choice? And holistically approaching that idea of kindness, holistically towards both the people and the planet.
00:29:07
Speaker
So we can talk like more about it all, but overall it all comes down to like, okay, am I being insanely megalomaniac in this world because I'm saying all the businesses are doing it and I'm assuming, oh, this is the only way to go. Or I'm actually trying to build something long-term here.
00:29:28
Speaker
What would you say are the benefits of this kind of transparent eco-communications for those who maybe don't see them? Maybe someone actually treats this subject as a trend, so they're just hopping on the trend because that's something that's hot at the moment.
00:29:46
Speaker
But what would be like the real benefits so that someone who wants to advertise their businesses eco-friendly or are actually doing some really good things or maybe not, but they want to highlight some part of what they do as sustainable. What are the real benefits? Because okay, some people do have good intentions, but some of them don't. So they want to see the benefits beyond, you know,
00:30:15
Speaker
let's say that most of the brands who are being criticized for greenwashing are using that kind of terminology for pumping up the sales. Exactly. So what would be the benefit for their businesses if they want to communicate with their customers or, I don't know,
00:30:42
Speaker
Stakeholders. Yeah, stakeholders, whatever. What would be the benefit for them? Because the way that most of most of people are talking about sustainability communications, it looks like that their sales are going to fall, you know, fall down. So yeah, they don't look like it's going to pay off. Well, let me start. I have two main points here. Point number one, by
00:31:13
Speaker
being more transparent and ethical in your communications and actually trying to portray what's happening on the field to your customers, to your stakeholders as realistically as possible. You are, and of course doing the work so behind the scenes actually trying to improve your business practices, you are helping
00:31:37
Speaker
I wouldn't say make sure because no one can be certain of it, but you are helping improve the chances of there being a market for you in 10 or 20 years.
Call to Action for Sustainable Practices
00:31:47
Speaker
because the reports, the sustainability reports, the IPCC reports, all kinds of different reports are showing that what we are experiencing right now and what we are just going to see more frequently end of larger impact, which are two very important data points here. So what we're seeing are natural disasters happening more often happening in less
00:32:15
Speaker
time period with the less pause between them exactly and the intervals are more frequent the impact is greater their their strength is larger so what that means is that they can multiply the impact of each other so for example if at the same time you have a flood here
00:32:34
Speaker
And then you have a pandemic there and then there's a forest fire somewhere. There's a limited capacity for people. And if at the same time, let's say the power is out, you have a huge problem. You have a very big problem. And that is going to influence the well-being of people. That's number one for me. At the same time, if you're looking for specifically the business side, that's also going to influence the buying power.
00:33:03
Speaker
because in a world where I'm faced, I'm from the Mediterranean, so we are all very aware of the predictions for this part of the globe. So if that's actually going to be happening, I'm gonna be very mindful about my money because the inflation rate at the moment is kind of crazy. And unfortunately, it is usually the people who are least responsible for the crisis that they pay for them first.
00:33:34
Speaker
with their lives, with their homes, we're gonna be seeing more migrations, et cetera. So there's all these factors that are going to contribute to the destabilization of the market. And in that market, what you can do to help, especially if you're a big business, is actually make sure to lower your impact, to lower your impact through adopting sustainable practices. Are the sales gonna fall?
00:34:02
Speaker
For certain businesses, I surely hope so. I know I first seem like an advocate right now than like a business owner, but I am completely aware that some businesses are like dogs without the leash at the moment because they are behaving as if the world has no end and if the resources run out here, we'll just go to a different planet. That's the look up model, right?
00:34:28
Speaker
but we know how it ended there and the way in which it ended there can be translated into the real world really quickly if people don't adopt the business practices that are needed and then actually back them up with adequate communication. Because for me, sustainability communication is also there, even if you are saying, you know what,
00:34:54
Speaker
We're not doing what we can right now. Our businesses have just started. I am completely aware that there's a trend and the need for the most sustainable choices right now. I am in an economic position where I cannot do that right now. So what I can offer to you are handmade products.
00:35:14
Speaker
but my resources are ordered from China, from a wholesale website and I have no clue how they are being made. I have no clue if someone is exploited on the other side. So even if that is your copy, to me that is appropriate sustainability communication for your brand. So let's be truthful, let's be mindful and work towards actually
00:35:39
Speaker
being there on the market in 10 years, having a market in 10, 20, 50 years.
Conclusion and Audience Engagement
00:35:45
Speaker
Well, thank you, Angela. I think that this was a really good conversation. I'm honestly hoping that the people who are listening to us are going to employ a lot of things that you were telling about. Thank you again.
00:36:02
Speaker
And all of you people, thank you for watching or listening to us. If you like our content, hit that subscribe button and tell us your feedback in the comments below. We really want to hear it. And see you next time in two weeks. Bye. Take care. Bye. Bye.