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Turning The Tide on Water Waste With AI: Podcast With Shayp
37 Plays7 months ago
Wastewater in urban buildings not only signifies financial loss but also represents a considerable environmental challenge, with an astonishing 70% of distributed freshwater being lost primarily through leaks and misuse. This results in roughly 20% of water bills covering water that never gets used—essentially money down the drain.
Addressing these inefficiencies, Shayp, led by co-founder Grégoire de Hemptinne, employs advanced technology to combat unnecessary water loss effectively.
In this podcast episode, we talk to Grégoire about how Shayp's innovative solutions are designed to track and reduce this wastage, making a big splash across various real estate sectors.
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- Website: https://www.shayp.com/
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Host: Dunja Jovanovic
Executive Producer: Marko Bodiroza
Creator: Nathan Harris
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Transcript
Introduction: Water Conservation with Gregoire de Chemtine
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello friends, you are watching a brand new episode of the Green New Perspective podcast. You'll go to place when you want to learn about innovative tech aimed at combating climate change. When we talk about climate crisis and what businesses and companies can do to reduce their environmental impact,
00:00:16
Speaker
the focus is usually on reducing their CO2 emissions. But our ecosystems are made of many different factors that all support each other as a cohesive whole. So the same goes for your business. If you're focusing on just one thing, in this case carbon footprint, are you forgetting the rest of the environment in the environmental footprint? So in today's episode we are focusing on water conservation and what businesses can do to reduce their impact on water consumption.
00:00:44
Speaker
My guest today is Gregoire de Chemtine. He is co-founder and CEO of Shape, a company that has developed tech aimed at water preservation. Hopefully you'll enjoy this conversation. So stay tuned. Hello and welcome to the Green New Perspective Podcast. Thank you. Hello. Can you tell me more about you and your company, Shape?
00:01:13
Speaker
and what are you trying to solve with the company? What climate issue are you trying to solve? Yes, so my name is Guguar. I'm computer scientist by background, and Shape is a B Corp company that we started six years ago. We want to basically reduce water usage in buildings, thanks to AI monitoring and real-time monitoring of animal detection. Can you tell me a bit more about the problems with water, and why have you decided to start a company that deals with this issue?
00:01:41
Speaker
Well, 70% of this fresh distributed water is actually lost in buildings through leakages, anomalies, or different types of misuse. So 20% of today's water bills are currently for all these anomalies. So this is money that people are paying for.
00:01:57
Speaker
Those are bills that people are paying. And an amount of that is actually just water wasted directly to the drain. So this is the biggest problem that we tackle. And when you talk about this with building managers in different real estate sectors, it's really a concern. I mean, they can really drive well water savings just with real-time monitoring and detecting of anomalies.
Innovations in Real-Time Water Monitoring
00:02:19
Speaker
And can you give us more info about your technology, how it works, and how do you actually save water in buildings?
00:02:27
Speaker
Yeah, so the whole water consumption of a building is the whole water that flows to the water meter at the entrance of the building. That's also where the water utility will bill you from, because based from that water flowing to the water meter, well, they see the number there, the index, and that's the amount of water that they will be able to bill you.
00:02:46
Speaker
So we chip, we are tackling the things in two steps. First, we need to acquire consumption data in order to be able to give an insight. So we developed retrofit hardware technology that is very easy to install, doesn't need to cut the pipes, doesn't need to have any Wi-Fi or these kind of things. It's just a plug and play tool, data logger.
00:03:06
Speaker
that you plug on that water meter and from there it gathers the real-time water consumption and sends it to the cloud. In some cases some buildings already are equipped with some digital metering in which case then we just integrate with existing APIs of different building measurement softwares or energy management software that provides us with the data.
Challenges and Robustness of Digital Water Meters
00:03:25
Speaker
But most often these digital meters are not so much deployed, especially in Europe. So in that case, and especially because also these water meters can be in very nasty places on the ground or in a well or in places where basically you have little or no maintenance.
00:03:43
Speaker
you need to have a very robust technology that you can plug without any wiring and without any complexity. So you plug it on the water meter and you don't. And you don't have to go there anymore for 10 years because we have 10 year battery. That was acquisition of the data. Then we get into the analysis of the data. Once we have collected the data in real time, now we're analyzing this data. And what we get from there is a real time flow of when
00:04:10
Speaker
Water is pulled from the top from a machine from a shower from where ever and we just aggregate that flow what i mean by that is we identify what is the different association of that water usage and we identify if nobody is happening if i know what is happening will identify the type of anybody and we will form the building manager of the owner as soon as possible so that he can take action and fix the
Customer Benefits: Water Savings and Asset Value
00:04:32
Speaker
problem.
00:04:32
Speaker
And do you have any metrics on the success rate in the buildings where you install your tech? On average, we save 21% on the water bill as from first year. So I would say in terms of success rates, there is a full payback in the first year. In some cases, I would say it depends a bit from building to building.
00:04:50
Speaker
we equipped a lot of schools. In schools, you have a huge amount of water loss, so it's often up to 40 to 50% of water savings. Why? Because typically you have also the syndrome of the kid that goes, plays with water on a Friday afternoon, and suddenly his parents arrive, and then he's like, hey, cool, I see my parents and he gets to shut the tap. Well, that's the example of just ways that could be avoided. But of course, it can also be very large or old buildings,
00:05:18
Speaker
that require attention because they haven't been fixed for a long time. These leaks have been hidden for a very long time. Typically, we also equip buildings like municipal buildings or old real estate. And typically, when you have those businesses, it could be
00:05:34
Speaker
like a bit of a Swiss cheese. I mean, you can have leaks in the pipes, you can have systems that are not well calibrated, like tanks that are refilling automatically, and then, you know, all the excess water just goes directly through the drain, or systems like that, that just nobody see because it's just not visible and or in places where nobody ever goes. This is also why we make the invisible visible by realizing and monitoring this in real time.
00:05:59
Speaker
How do people react? Do you find this issue to be a big one? Do they want to install the technology to save water or just to save money or both? I would say we identify different types of customers and different types of perspectives. The people who are paying for the bills, which are not always the same as the owners of the buildings,
00:06:21
Speaker
they care really about the cost saving part. Why? Because of course, for them it's operationally. If you have typically old real estate, then you would definitely be interested in that. If you have a very large building, like a hospital typically that you would have to monitor, then of course it's also large savings that you can make.
00:06:38
Speaker
Now, you have also other types of customers that would rather own a lot of assets. And for them, it's also just about monitoring and having a view in one single view of all your buildings, water consumption, water forecast, benchmarking your buildings across each other, understanding how the operational teams are effectively fixing the problems, how fast you can have typically in one region, you see that leakages have been repaired in three days.
00:07:00
Speaker
And in other regions, you see they're systematically repaired in three months. Then you also can compare and benchmark your buildings across each other. So basically, it's providing them for a whole portfolio view of the weather usage across the portfolio, considering that now more and more companies would like to report on their usage, on their ESG metrics. This is, of course, providing them with a single platform, regardless of where are their buildings, whether they're in the US, whether they're in Europe or elsewhere.
00:07:26
Speaker
You can just have an integrated platform where everything is displayed. Yeah, and something that I would like to add as well. So, of course, something that is more and more trendy for the moment is also billing certifications. Why billing certification is important? Well, because as part of this ESG strategy is, of course, to improve your footprints, to reduce your footprints in general.
00:07:46
Speaker
Well, with our technology, you can earn a lot of points as well with these building certifications. So improve the level of your building, getting typically gold in some certifications. And on top of, of course, saving your money operationally and being more efficient in your reporting.
00:08:01
Speaker
It also increases the value of your assets. What I'm saying is that here, in some buildings, we see an upward value of 20% or 30% on buildings that have been certified. Of course, this is also increasing the whole portfolio value by adding these technologies that would be, whether it's energy management, water management, and other that improves the quality of your building in general.
Mission-Driven Approach: Shape's B Corp Certification
00:08:22
Speaker
Talking about certifications, your company is B Corp certified. How has that helped your business? For us, as a small company, in the beginning, we were driven by impact, driven by that mission about saving water. For us, of course, as a standard, it was already in our DNA without having any certification. But when you build a company from the ground up,
00:08:42
Speaker
you're looking for a framework to follow, like what are the typical good practices that you can put in place. And so we decided to apply the PCORP certification as a framework to build the right processes in our company, to think about all the elements of the company culture. And so, yeah, I mean, this is how basically we got in the
00:09:03
Speaker
in that process of making an application for vCorp. And I think it was really appreciated as well, not only by customers or by suppliers, but also by the team itself. I mean, when you can basically show that you have the process, you're talking about it, you're protecting also employees, you're taking care of diversity. Even the mission of the company at the highest level, like in the article of association, is mentioning that we will take all stakeholders into account when we take any strategic decision.
00:09:32
Speaker
So I think this is really at the core of the company. And you said you started your business six years ago.
Navigating Market Challenges: The COVID-19 Impact
00:09:39
Speaker
What were the challenges of introducing this type of technology to the market? Launching a hardware business, well, hardware to software business, is something that is not, let's say, easy to start with. First, because you have to develop, there is a lot of R&D involved. So we had to find the first financing round with some business angels to finance that R&D in the first place.
00:10:01
Speaker
But that went well because we managed to have some investments pretty early on. And then for two years, we really knocked down the technology problem, although more and more features came later. But the first version was ready, I would say, around 2019, 2020.
00:10:23
Speaker
And then we came across another challenge, which everyone probably knows is the COVID. Lots of startups have had a bit of a hard time there because we were equipping buildings and, you know, like all these buildings were absolutely empty. So why would they invest in anything that would save them water if anyway, the building was empty?
00:10:42
Speaker
So that was a bit of a challenge for us, but we decided to knock down the right segment. I think there I realized that municipalities had a lot of schools on the management and schools are quite old buildings, all the states that can have actually hidden leaks or hidden inefficiencies and that had to be maintained anyway. So we decided to go direct sales to B2G.
00:11:03
Speaker
You wouldn't have expected that in the first place because you would expect government clients or public clients to be quite slow to decide. But during COVID, they were just doing nothing. They were open to projects, especially in sustainability. So we managed to basically develop that segment quite a lot. And we equipped, I think, in total today, over 500 schools.
00:11:25
Speaker
because that's a very good segment to develop in. Also universities and nurseries and colleges, but I would say that segment is very efficient. So that would be one of the challenges that we faced. And then maybe another challenge that we faced was a year and a half ago when following up on the war in Ukraine,
00:11:47
Speaker
prices of energy raises rise a lot so suddenly for most of our customers like why would they care about water if energy is so expensive and actually usually our decision maker is the same as the energy manager so he would he would basically take that from his own budget but at that moment i mean we had to be
00:12:06
Speaker
creative and show the value that we're creating. Like return on investment, water saving technology is less than a year, as opposed to energy savings that often have a return on investment in 10 to 20 years. So when you think about, of course, saving money, I mean, it's really important about making the right choices. Of course, price of water is lower than energy, especially here in Europe. But if you can make savings in the first year, it makes sense, of course, to invest in it.
00:12:35
Speaker
Where do you see the company in the next five
Future Directions: Partnerships and Integration
00:12:37
Speaker
years? How do you see your attack developing? It's interesting to see how the market is evolving. We decided to tackle the market in the first place with direct sales with large real estate owners. I mentioned some public customers, some private, large real estate owners like retail chains or hospitals and these kinds of customers.
00:12:58
Speaker
And they're sort of sustainability aware and they want to invest not only into with skivvings, but also want to invest in improving their brand image. Now, what we see as well is that utilities, especially public utilities that are responsible for the water and distributing the water, starts to be interested in what we do because we kind of already delivered their customers.
00:13:21
Speaker
But in the first place, utilities were not really sensitive to this matter because they were saying, look, if I would sell a technology that would reduce the leaks, I would reduce my top line because I would generate less revenue. So why would I do that? But now, of course, sustainability questions come more and more across so that the mindset is changing. And this is also where I see a big opportunity for shape in the future. We started now to partner with one of the largest utility, top 10 utility in Europe.
00:13:49
Speaker
And they just created a white label for a brand, for Shape, and so they distribute Shape for their own customers, like water-saving technology for their own customers in partnership with us. We then just become a technological layer and they integrate this completely in their system.
00:14:08
Speaker
And I think this is, of course, the future for me of SHAPE where basically we can provide this water mitigation technology eventually to everyone and the utility can also generate a new business model around this. So for them, it's a win-win because not only would they generate revenue, this makes a case for them to distribute, to deploy
00:14:29
Speaker
smart or digital metering across the whole portfolio, which is also quite a huge investment for them. By creating that business model, they generate more money so they can also justify that investment. Now, depending on smaller cities or larger cities, they do have different incentives to do so. But now we're making it possible for everyone to roll out digital metering technology. And I think this is where I see shape evolving in the next few years. It's really scaling through these type of partnerships
00:14:55
Speaker
Now that we did one, we're now about to do a second one. Of course, large utilities are pretty slow in terms of innovation. So you have to test the technology, make sure it works well, create different use cases. But I think this is also where we come with a strong planning proposition because we have already most of the time equipped some of their customers. And so they see the value already. They see what their customers are ready for paying for this. So they completely see the
Elevating Water in Environmental Policy
00:15:21
Speaker
interest.
00:15:21
Speaker
When we talk about your new clients, you're very active on social media. All over social media, so do you feel like that kind of engagement led you to more clients, especially when we talk about residential buildings?
00:15:31
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, engagement on social media is for me important, not only for acquiring customers, but also for pushing politicians, for talking about customer stories and talking about our success stories. And I think the water topic is underrated in terms of communication. I mean, we hear a lot about climate change, about carbon footprints. Now we're talking a bit more about natural restoration and biodiversity.
00:15:59
Speaker
But where is the topic of water? Actually, water is in the need so many challenges. When you think of it, of course, I mean, I talked about biodiversity and climate change, they all have somewhere a relationship with water. But on top of that, I mean, when you think of it, poverty is directly related to the topic of water. We need to provide water to everyone as good. When you think of, you know,
00:16:21
Speaker
geopolitical tensions when you think about prosperity, when you think about agriculture, when you think about even this phone, you need 10 cubic meters of water to produce it. So just think of it. All these goods that you have around you require water at some point in the process.
00:16:39
Speaker
So the fact is completely underrated. And this is also why I talk and I communicate about this on social media, just because I want to make people aware of the problematic. First, that's the second part is this year, more or less half of the planet will go to vote for a new president, a new prime minister, a new government. This is the time where we need to put water on the agenda of all these governments that will be settled.
00:17:02
Speaker
politics or the regulations around water has to be improved. And this has to happen in the next few years now, because we already have had 12 months in a row over 1.5 degrees pre-industrial area. So we can't wait anymore. So there is a real call here for actions. And that's also what I'm doing. And finally, I'm also participating in different workshops and working groups about the pricing of water. Because as I mentioned,
00:17:32
Speaker
Value of water is underrated. Why also? Because the price of water doesn't really reflect the actual value of water. And being involved in these discussions with politicians, with decision makers at several levels, helps me to also provide them with other insights of how can we use water in the best way. When you think about saving water, you tend to think, oh, but actually, when I brush my teeth, probably I should shed the water faster. That's not going to make a huge difference, especially when you see all the water that is wasted to all these
00:18:00
Speaker
like large buildings and leakages and all these kind of problems. When you think of it, there are three main ways to reduce water consumption. One, reduce anomalies.
00:18:10
Speaker
Second one, optimize usage. And the third one would be then change behavior. While in the energy sector, I think now we're reaching a stage where changing behaviors is the ultimate way to improve. In the water, I mean, there's so much to do in reducing anomalies and optimizing consumption that, I mean, changing behavior is, I mean, we have to do that as well. But the thing is, it's kind of far away. There was already a lot to do in the first two. Just to illustrate with an example, in 2022,
00:18:39
Speaker
in the side of France, most of the cities were under heavy water restriction. What I mean by that is that you could not clean your car, you could not fill your swimming pool, and many other restrictions were implied for all citizens.
00:18:54
Speaker
Well, at the end of the summer, we equipped one of the largest universities in that region. We equipped a university, and a few days later, we realized that they have an eight cubic meter an hour leak. Eight cubic meter an hour. This is the equivalent of 850 households using water all year round.
00:19:13
Speaker
Well, when you think of it, I mean, we, just by solving that little problem, we equivalent the fact of having this 800 household not using water for one year. So, I mean, the university couldn't have identified it because this was really like that use case on the better ground so nobody can see it, just water filling and overflowing directly to the drain. So, literally no damage, nothing, just water flowing and then to the drain.
00:19:39
Speaker
And so I think we really have to get to awareness about these kinds of problems in order to be able to save and to make our cities more resilient in the
Practical Advice for Building Managers
00:19:51
Speaker
future. For buildings just getting started with water management, what are some, let's say, quick wins that you'd recommend they can focus on first?
00:19:58
Speaker
Well, the quick wins is starting to monitor, of course. But if you don't have any technology available, well, just start with looking at your water meter when everyone is asleep. If you think of your building, when everyone is asleep, nobody should be using water. So have a look at your water meter. Watch it for two minutes. If it turns, it means you have a problem. So that's the first thing. Of course, you will not be able to do that every day, every week.
00:20:25
Speaker
then there is a frequency to define. But that's the start, of course. And then, of course, what is that leak attributed to? Is it the machine? Is it leakages in the pipe? Is it another type of anomaly? Then, of course, you have to figure it out. So that's why AI is very powerful and can help us to basically figure out those kind of problems and avoid to kind of start looking all around the place.
00:20:46
Speaker
Now, what we also do is we transform that leakage that is kind of expressed in liters per hour or cubic meter per hour. We express it in euros, in dollars, so that basically the customer can realize how much money he's wasting as well. And when you compare this to the price of a plumber or an aqua hunter, basically it makes no sense to wait. I mean, you just hire him and you get the thing and the
Gregoire's Journey: From Computer Science to Clean Tech Entrepreneurship
00:21:13
Speaker
fixed top.
00:21:13
Speaker
And I would like you to share a bit about your personal journey. So how did you get into the clean space and what advice would you like to give to some other people who would like to start up their own companies but have little to zero experience in this space?
00:21:28
Speaker
I started my career as a computer science engineer, as I said, but I'm always passionate about nature. I like to go outdoors, to hiking, to go mountaineering. Actually, I did quite a lot of high summits in the Himalayas, in the Andes, and I went on expedition. So I was really passionate about nature on one end, and on the other hand, I was working as a computer scientist
00:21:49
Speaker
So, as a computer scientist, I grew in some companies. I worked in the web industry, then I worked in the pharma industry, then I worked in the banking industry, then I worked in the telecom industry, like computer scientist consultants. But the consistent thing that I was doing across these different jobs was always working in data management, data intelligence. Typically, in the pharma industry, I was doing anomaly detection.
00:22:11
Speaker
and flow detection on clinical trials. So basically he was looking at a lot of data, detecting these problems, flagging them, providing them as a report to this pharma company.
00:22:21
Speaker
And so after these several years, I wanted to be an entrepreneur. So that's something I knew. I kind of made my first years as working as a computer architect. So I felt like, okay, now I kind of have the technical skills. How can I get more of the business skills? So I went for an MBA in Spain for two years. It was an amazing experience.
00:22:43
Speaker
And during that time I had my first kid, my son. And so I also became suddenly more aware for me, I felt the urge of working on a planet in a way or another. But at that time I didn't know, I didn't knew yet what I was going to do, right? I mean, I knew I wanted to put my skills and my passion about making the environment better. When I went back to Belgium after my MBA, I had that opportunity to meet with the energy manager or the city of Brussels.
00:23:13
Speaker
His role was to monitor all the building city, so typically there were 300 buildings under management, optimize the water usage, but not only was energy heating, ventilation, all these kind of things that you have to do as an energy manager to optimize the consumption and the footprint of these buildings.
00:23:31
Speaker
And by changing with him, he just did actually a full analysis of the water usage in the buildings of the city. And he was realizing that 40% of the water consumption of the city was just going down the drain. So when we saw that, I mean, quickly running the numbers, they had a 1 million euro
00:23:49
Speaker
a yearly water bill, and 400,000 of that was just going too late. It was like, OK, now, I mean, that's a business case. That's extraordinary work. And so this is where we decided him, me, and a third co-founder to make a first prototype, like an MVP, like a small device that would just gather the data from the water meter, also because those are old real estate. So we had to do that retrofit. So gather information for the water meter and quickly analyze it and provide insights.
00:24:18
Speaker
So this is how it started, and little by little we got our first customer because the city of Brussels was basically our testbed, let's say. And then that's also where we kind of developed across schools, across municipalities in Belgium, and little by little we expanded now with very large brands, renowned across the world, and then also kind of had this incentive to, well, they did already the tests at the local level, and now they want to expand across the world.
00:24:44
Speaker
can give some advice to people who are just joining the clean tech community wanting to start their own companies and startups?
Entrepreneurial Advice: Market Understanding and Perseverance
00:24:51
Speaker
Well, I would say, I mean, of course, as I would say, for every entrepreneur, start with falling in love with the problem. But the problem is sometimes not enough. I mean, problems, societal problems, you can find many, especially in the clean tech space, you want to change the world. But you have to find as well a pay, like people who are willing to pay for it.
00:25:09
Speaker
And this is sometimes the hard thing is really to understand the whole ecosystem around the problem that you want to solve, understanding who is actually willing to pay for it at what price, and does that price correspond to what you can actually provide as a solution.
00:25:25
Speaker
I think like today as an entrepreneur we saw that the ecosystem around water, there's the utility part I told you, there is the end user part and then there is a well there's also an insurance component to it that I didn't describe here and eventually of course environment can benefit from all this because we're saving water so it has an impact on biodiversity, it has an impact on geopolitical strategy, it has an impact on many different things.
00:25:47
Speaker
So I would say, of course, the problem is important, but also who is going to pay for it. And also like just perseverance. I think this is a very important thing as an entrepreneur in the key space. Like the markets can sometimes seem not to be ready yet. And sometimes you have to understand the market, but also go probably look a bit around at other markets. Some are more mature than others. You have cultural, also cultural barriers as well that you have to
00:26:15
Speaker
overcome and sometimes the market that you're in is probably not the most mature so it's also good to grow elsewhere if you feel like that's where you can create more traction.
Strategic Partnerships: Enhancing Sales and Reach
00:26:25
Speaker
And do you feel like getting into some kind of partnerships or joining some communities may help when you start? Partnerships is definitely a good thing. I mean, maybe I will also illustrate with an example. Well, with CHIP, we wanted to develop more sales, so we started to cold call new potential customers. So we're calling them and they say, hey, what did you think about your water strategy? Do you know about water leaks? Do you know how much you could save?
00:26:52
Speaker
And systematically we had people run on the other side of the phone who were saying, I don't have a problem with water. Actually, I never monitored water. I don't know. I don't care.
00:27:02
Speaker
Well, cold calling creates kind of a problem. People are not aware of the problem. And so you have to understand that people will buy when they feel the urge. So creating partnership for us was key because we decided to partner with facility management companies and energy management companies because they are already with the customer. So they know when the customer has experienced a leak, they know when the customer is actually putting water on their agenda. And so this is accelerating our sales cycles by a lot.
00:27:29
Speaker
So I would say partnering, of course, finding the right part. I would also have a disclaimer here from partnering with other early stage startups, that's a bit dangerous because then everyone is kind of focusing on their own business and then you're not really creating that synergy that you would like to do because you also have to deliver your own company and then plus this partnership is sometimes very difficult.
00:27:49
Speaker
So try to partner with well-established companies that do have already a good customer base that you can leverage and enhance their offering, their product offering with your solution. That's something important. And for the end, this is my last question for you for this podcast episode. Can you tell me where people can reach out to you? Websites, social media, Slack channels, Discord groups, whatever you have that you can share here.
Contact Information for Water Solutions
00:28:13
Speaker
And we're going to link in the description of the episode.
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah, so if you're interested in looking into your water consumption in Shape or anything else with Shape, we are reachable through websites, www.shape.com. I'm reachable also by email, gregatshape.com, easy to reach. And otherwise, I would say my LinkedIn profile is probably the best way to reach out and to connect with me.
00:28:39
Speaker
Thank you, Greg. This was a super informative episode. Thank you once again for being our guest here on the Green New Perspective Podcast. You're welcome. Thanks a lot.
00:28:56
Speaker
Well, this marks the end of another amazing new perspective podcast conversation, this time dedicated to water preservation with guest Greg or the Hampton from company called shape. If you like what we do here, giving the spotlight to some amazing, amazing innovators.
00:29:12
Speaker
in the climate space please consider subscribing to our podcast on your favorite streaming platform we are everywhere from spotify to youtube we are even product hunt so if you like what we do you can give us an upload there this podcast is proudly sponsored by new perspective digital marketing agency based in boston
00:29:31
Speaker
working with cleantech clients only. So if you want to learn how our sponsor can make your cleantech business grow and thrive, check out the links in the description of this episode and find out how ethical marketing can change the world. Hopefully you enjoyed spending time with me and enjoying the chat and I'll see you in the next one. Bye!