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Podcast With Fairmat: The Startup Turning Waste into Premium Goods
56 Plays8 months ago
One of the biggest head-scratchers in the sustainability game has been what to do with high-tech waste - especially carbon fiber composites used in everything from airplanes to sports equipment. It's lightweight, it's strong, but it does create a puzzle when it comes to recycling.
Enter Benjamin Saada, the brain behind Fairmat. This isn't just a story about recycling; it's about revolutionizing how we think about waste, turning a problem into a solution. Fairmat is slicing through the complexity of recycling and reusing carbon fiber, giving it a second life that's both eco-friendly and economically savvy.
📚 RESOURCES & LINKS
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- Fairmat Website: https://www.fairmat.tech/
- Fairmat LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/fairmat-tech
- Fairmat YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@UCwqxQQ4qGdl6HQ4pTMdPNfQ
Guest: Benjamin Saada, Founder and CEO of Fairmat
🌍 SUSTAINABILITY PODCAST CREATED BY NEW PERSPECTIVE
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This podcast is proudly sponsored by New Perspective Marketing, a dynamic growth marketing agency in Boston, MA, celebrating 20 years in business. We help sustainably focused B2B organizations grow their brands and scale up revenue. If you or your organization is looking to grow, visit npws.com for more info.
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Host: Dunja Jovanovic
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#cleantech #sustainability #podcast
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Transcript
Introduction to Innovative Tech in Climate Change
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, you are watching a brand new episode of the Green New Perspective podcast. My name is Dunja and I will be your guide on the journey to discovering innovative tech aimed at combating climate change.
Meet Benjamin Sada of Fairmat
00:00:11
Speaker
Today's episode is dedicated to one of the biggest hat-scratchers in the sustainability game and that is what to do with high-tech waste, especially carbon fiber composites used everything from airplanes to making sports equipment.
00:00:25
Speaker
They're lightweight, they're durable, but they are a puzzle when we talk about recycling them. That's why we invited Benjamin Sada. He is the founder and CEO of Fairmat, a company that is recycling carbon fiber composites into a totally new material.
Fairmat's Mission and Ecological Impact
00:00:40
Speaker
And this isn't going to be just a story about recycling, it's about revolutionizing how we think about waste turning a problem into solution. So if you want to learn more on how we can actually
00:00:52
Speaker
reuse or recycle high-tech into making a totally new circular product, stick around and listen to what Ben has to say. Hi, Ben. Welcome to the Green New Perspective podcast. Hi. Thank you for having me on the podcast. For the beginning, can you tell me and our audience what inspired you to start Fairmat and what problem were you trying to solve?
00:01:21
Speaker
Of course, my name is Ben. I started Fermat three years ago. Actually, it's my second startup. The first one, I launched it 14 years ago. It is called explicit. It is a lightweight asset company.
00:01:37
Speaker
And for the first 12 years of my career, after the age of 23, just after graduation, I spent my time to develop the world's lightest aircraft seats in order to save fuel in aircraft. Because when you switch the seats, you have a lighter aircraft, and you save two to three percent of fuel. The company is a great success. I mean, today, something like 200 aircraft are flying with this technology.
00:02:02
Speaker
But the seed was made of carbon fiber composite. And the question was, what are we going to do with these materials after the end of life? And here I discovered that, actually, this material is always going to be landfilled. And we are talking about millions of tons of materials that are going to be landfilled. It is a metal of the aircraft, a metal of the wind turbine. And so I launched Fermat to find an ecological solution.
Recycling Process and Sustainable Products
00:02:29
Speaker
to avoid this material to be landfilled and also to provide the world to new materials that has high performance and low price in order to find a sustainable alternative to many virgin materials. And how does your technology actually work?
00:02:45
Speaker
Just before discussing about the technology, the concept of recycling has to be studied a little bit. Recycling was invented during World War II because there was a scarcity of materials to create ammunition. So at the beginning of the recycling industry, it was to create alternatives to virgin materials because there was no access to virgin materials.
00:03:09
Speaker
So initially, the recycling business was not here to save CO2. The concept of CO2 did not exist at that time. So when we started to recycle advanced materials, like carbon fiber composites, the first question is what is recycling and how to do recycling activities that is reducing the emission of CO2. And
00:03:32
Speaker
Fermat could only use mechanical methods to recycle the materials, because today this is the only method that does not emit CO2, or very little, because it's just moving engines. So when you start to create the technology with this energy consumption problem in mind, then you ended up to use mechanical strength only.
00:03:56
Speaker
And so how it works, it works with robots that actually are able to slice real-time composite parts, so like aircraft wings, wind turbine beams, industrial waste. So we are able to slice it at a thickness of 200 microns.
00:04:13
Speaker
And so we create some chips of carbon-fiber composite. And those chips, then we have developed a material science algorithm
Partnerships and Market Challenges
00:04:23
Speaker
to mix it together in order to create a good quality of materials. And what is fun with materials is
00:04:33
Speaker
and very difficult is that materials always break at a weak point. So if you mix materials, you can mix the best materials in the world. You add one bad materials and then it breaks at this point. So we had to create an innovation about how to distribute
00:04:50
Speaker
the product, how to distribute the chips in order to have a constant quality. And that's super tough. That's difficult. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it works very well. And this is Fermat.
00:05:03
Speaker
And what do you make from this new recycled material? Your question is very important. Most of the recycling companies, they stop here. So they recycle and they create new materials or a new version of an initial materials. At Fairmat, because we have to recycle hundreds of millions of tons of materials, we could not stop here. Because if I just provide customers with my chips, what are they going to do with it?
00:05:29
Speaker
how to make sure that they will use the chips for a better use. How to make sure that we use the chips to actually reduce the CO2 emission of the product they are making. So we have developed 50% of the technology is a manufacturing technology. So it's another robot that are able to use the chips and then create a new semi-product or product. And what we do with the chips, we do that.
00:05:59
Speaker
Oh, nice. It's cool. I mean, yeah, this is made from aircraft and wind turbine. We do a lot of sporting goods. It's a perfect material for sporting goods, for example.
00:06:13
Speaker
And are you collaborating with some bigger companies? Well, they don't have to be big. Some companies that are manufacturing goods, so they want to use your material to create their products or whatever. Of course. I mean, we are at the end, we are a producer of materials and a supplier of semi-products or manufacturing technology that they can use in their own factory. And we work with many brands in supporting goods. Today we have 15 customers worldwide.
00:06:36
Speaker
We've just recently opened the U.S. and we have five customers in the U.S.
DeepTech Startups and Global Operations
00:06:41
Speaker
and 10 other customers are mainly in Europe. So we work with a pedal racket, whiskey, in sole shoe. You know, carbon fiber is doing really great in running shoes, actually. So we work on that. We also work in the electronics good industry. You want to see? I want to see.
00:07:02
Speaker
I mean, this is my only two surprise for this podcast. So here you can see it's a reinforcement that we do for, so the company can then put electronics component into it. This one is for doing a smart white scales of a European company called Withings, and it's pretty cool.
00:07:25
Speaker
And do you feel like the interest in recycled or new materials are growing with companies like you mentioned? Or are they still buying some limited quantities of those materials so they can basically PR themselves as doing something sustainable and not actually including the sustainability practices within the, let's say, bigger production?
00:07:52
Speaker
At the startup company first, there is no interest for us to work on what you call greenwashing, actually. It doesn't have to be greenwashing, but I had in my previous podcast episode, I had a couple of guests who were making recycled materials. I can mention one company there called Renusel. It's a Swedish company that recycles cotton and viscose into a new product, new material that is called circulars.
00:08:20
Speaker
And they were collaborating with some of the biggest, bigger fashion brands, but they were buying smaller quantities and they were not complaining. They were really grateful for those kind of collaborations, but they still had the, let's say, difficulties to survive on the market because they're still not buying enough for them to grow as a company and to produce more material, which is,
Scaling Challenges and CO2 Footprint
00:08:43
Speaker
well,
00:08:43
Speaker
So I think it's a very good question. So today I can only talk about my company. So for Fermat, we started to sell our product last year, and we have sold the equivalent of 300 tons of materials. So it's a big figure. I mean, we're very happy with that. Of course, we want to grow much more. That's a very important question. And as a repeat from the off-detect startup,
00:09:12
Speaker
DeepTech business requires high volume. It requires mass application. Otherwise, there's nowhere your business model will repay the investment of the factory and so on. And you can see it. I mean, the most known DeepTech startup is Tesla. I mean, it's not because Tesla is aiming at being bigger than Ford or Volkswagen or big groups. And it is the same for DeepTech startup. I mean, you can only exist if you aim at big.
00:09:36
Speaker
And the advantages of recycling carbon fiber composite is the quantity, the 200 million tons of materials to recycle. I mean, the feedstock is big enough to be able to invest into innovation and disruptive business model. And where did you see some challenges while developing the company?
00:10:00
Speaker
There's a lot of challenges. So today, most of the manufacturing is made in Asia. So even if we recycle in Europe, for example, or soon it will be recycled in the US, we are shipping the product in Asia.
00:10:18
Speaker
What we want to provide our customers is with a multi-local business that allows them to have a low CO2 footprint everywhere in the world.
Communicating the Recycling Process
00:10:31
Speaker
So, for example, a big challenge is a format to be big as to be in Europe, in the US, and in Asia.
00:10:38
Speaker
I mean, it's very, very difficult for a startup to establish already one factor is a big challenge, but here we have to establish one factory and present everywhere worldwide. Otherwise, the environmental impact would be reduced. And to going back to your initial question.
00:10:58
Speaker
My vision is that it's only like startup with a real positive and strong impact on the environment that will survive the next 10 years. So we must provide this strong positive impact. So we must be present in Asia, in the US and in Europe. And that's a pretty big challenge. No one wants that to be in the backyard. That's not possible.
00:11:26
Speaker
Yeah, I have to say the most frequent thing that I hear from guests here on the podcast is the collaboration is one of the most important things when we're talking about clean text space. So yeah, that is something that everyone is basically, you know, just repeating. And the large corporate are really ready to collaborate to solve that issue. That's another reality. Again,
00:11:52
Speaker
No one wants that in this backyard. So everyone is actively looking for solutions. Yeah. What I wanted to ask is since this podcast is sponsored by a marketing agency and
00:12:06
Speaker
The other thing that I also heard here on the podcast that is frequently mentioned is how clean tech companies are actually communicating their efforts and what they're doing, the new technologies, how they're placing themselves in the market. So what challenges did you have there with FairMap?
Positioning Recycled Materials as High-End
00:12:23
Speaker
Because you're doing something that is truly innovative. Do you feel like people understand what you're doing? What's your collaborators or companies that you're working with? Did they have any challenges?
00:12:35
Speaker
when you approach them with your technology.
00:12:39
Speaker
But we're facing so many challenges in that field. First, what we do is complicated. So I mean, it's a big challenge for deep tech startup. We are just saying we do recycling carbon fiber companies is not true because we do the manufacturing. But we create a new material. So we are closing a loop. But it's a complicated loop. So it's complicated to achieve communication on a complicated business is not easy.
00:13:06
Speaker
The second thing is, at least in Europe, but I think it's the same in the US. When you say you are doing recycling, people think it is cheap. It's a low-quality or low-cost product. Of course, Fermat is providing an extremely good price to performance ratio.
00:13:25
Speaker
But when we do a sporting goods, usually we ended up into the best sporting goods category. So when we do ski, we do ski with the best bronze in the world. When we do a pedal racquet, we do the best pedal racquet in the world. Pickleball, all these sports. For the first time, Fermat is providing recycled materials that are super high-end.
00:13:43
Speaker
And it's wonderful our pillar is to improve consumer goods in general. And this is a big challenge to communicate on that. How to explain that the new top quality is coming from a recycling industry. That's a big challenge to explain to people. Yeah, that's true. That's true. When people hear recycled, they think about something that has less of a worth.
00:14:06
Speaker
than virgin material. So yeah, I get you. But did you find any strategies to be successful there? I think the best strategy is to let our customers talk for us. If you look at the We Things project. So We Things is one of the best companies in Europe for L-stack. So they do a smart scale that can measure your heart beating and many other very important things.
00:14:33
Speaker
And our product ended up in the most expensive weight scales. And the one, the product that they sell the most in the US and so on. So I think as Fermat CEO, I cannot do more for that. I can just sell my products and equip my customers on their best line of equipment. And this is what is happening in the sporting goods, in the electronics goods. We really ended up all the time in iron product. And I think that speaks for itself.
00:14:59
Speaker
And what emerging applications or technologies are you most excited about for recycling carbon fiber?
00:15:06
Speaker
For fermat recycling, fermat recycled carbon fiber composite is aimed at replacing other advanced materials, not necessarily the virgin carbon fiber. Do you want to fly in a recycled aircraft? An aircraft is not here to be recycled, it's here to be efficient, safe, and with the aircraft we can do plenty of other goods that would be useful for consumers.
00:15:31
Speaker
So we are replacing very polluting
Advice for Working with Large Companies
00:15:35
Speaker
aluminum grades, very polluting stainless steel, some glass fiber. And we see our futures in the civil business, energy business, in some wind turbine components, automotive business, all the battery casings, skid plate, all this kind of part that has a huge impact on the consumption of the car.
00:15:55
Speaker
And of course, we'll keep growing in the field of sporting goods because we're doing so good already and we want to expand. Did you have it in mind to work in sporting goods or did it just happen? It happens. It happens. I mean, like Fermat, it happens to me. I started just after graduation, I created a capacity players with two other friends. We aim at saving CO2.
00:16:27
Speaker
14 years later, I have two kids, so now I am at providing them a better planet for them to grow in a good environment. And we ended up with a format advanced thinking technology. Yeah, well, you know, that's a good motive to have.
00:16:44
Speaker
the best. Yeah. What advice would you give to other people who want to start a clean tech company? Like that, I have three advice. So first, I mean, you need to be able to work with large companies.
00:16:59
Speaker
So that's really a specific job. Large companies is a complicated world with huge opportunities. But also, if you take the wrong path, you can lose years of work and be very disappointed or frustrated. So with large companies, to make sure that your business model
00:17:20
Speaker
is what they want. And if there is no fit, you need to drop fast. Very fast. I mean, it's okay. That's life. There is plenty of companies in the world. If you cannot work with this one, you will find a path to work with another one. But be very clear about your business model, how you want to make money, how you want to help them, and be sure that what you are doing is sustainable.
00:17:41
Speaker
So this is what we do for the sporting goods. I mean, we need to avoid to work with brands or companies that will make maybe a use, but not for long term and so on. So do not hesitate to be very focused on the right partners. The second thing is we discussed it already is aiming at big. If there is factor is involved in your technology, you need to look for a market in hundreds of million euro minimum.
Growth Potential in Sustainable Industries
00:18:06
Speaker
My previous company, explicit, the actual market was between 200 and 500 million euro per year. This is too small because even if you do 10%, it's 20 million, 50 million, it's too small for a big factory and so on. So you need to aim at market in billions per year. So you need to be ready to tackle these kind of challenges, but this is the only way to provide a successful business model for your investors.
00:18:33
Speaker
So that's my two big advice. And the third advice, of course, is you're probably a genius in your field. You're probably super motivated, but you won't solve everything. You won't solve every problem of your customers. So make sure you work on the actual problem your technology is designed to solve.
00:18:51
Speaker
because people as soon as they understand you're smart they will ask you like okay can you do that and I press on that and reduce that and you know you have to stay focused of course so that's my advice very difficult to to apply when you when you are inside the company well thank you great advices um i wanted to ask you and where do you see the most potential for growth and impact
00:19:15
Speaker
in the sustainable materials overall, not just the one that you're making. So if you look at what's consumed today in terms of weight,
00:19:24
Speaker
The three industries that are consuming most of the materials today is building industry, automotive industry, and electronics industry. So, I mean, I don't know the future, but what I can say is if we want to reduce CO2 emission or we want to improve the impact at scale for the health, these three industries, they have to change everything they do.
00:19:52
Speaker
Otherwise, it's not going to happen. You can look at everything you want. If the belling industry is an automotive industry, electronics goods industry is not changing the way they are manufacturing today, the impact at the earth level would be nothing. At least because I am positive and I think that we will reach some targets and we will improve the situation. I can say that I think there is a revolution to come in these industries.
Episode Conclusion and Audience Engagement
00:20:20
Speaker
Let's stay positive. Like some of our guests here said, cautiously optimistic. I guess that's the good phrase to use here. There's no reason to be cautious. I mean, it's just optimistic. You don't think so? Let's be completely optimistic. I mean, it's OK.
00:20:40
Speaker
So where can people find you, your company, on your social media, give us the links on your website. And if you have some clean tech, climate tech, nature tech, biotech, sustainable materials, communities that you would like to share for people who are in the industry or for people who would like to discover the industry, please do share for us. We will go into link all of this in the description of the episode.
00:21:04
Speaker
The community I'm happy to share. First, if people want to join us, we are recruiting a lot. We have an office in Paris in France, but right now we are also recruiting in Utah, in Salt Lake City for our new plant.
00:21:21
Speaker
So we're looking for a talent juice, project manager, workers, industrial engineers, spawning good experts to help us to build our presence in the US and in South Lake City in Utah. Our website is www.fermat.tech. And we have a LinkedIn community just to join Fermat.
00:21:46
Speaker
on LinkedIn and you can join our community of followers. Thank you, Ben. This has been an informative conversation on what you're producing. I wish you all the best with the US launch. Thank you. Thank you very much. It has been a pleasure to be with you today.
00:22:16
Speaker
You were watching Green New Perspective podcast and now is the perfect time for me to introduce you to our wonderful sponsors, their new perspective at Boston-based marketing agency, working with clean tech clients only. And if you want to learn how they're helping clean tech companies grow, please check out the info in the description of this episode. And if you want to help us grow, consider liking, sharing, subscribing to our channel on your favorite streaming platform. It really means the world to us. Thank you for being with me and see you next time. Bye.