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Episode 32: Creativity In Wonderland: A Conversation with Dr. Leanne Domash
110 Plays4 years ago
Fara and Grant speak with psychologist and psychoanalyst Leanne Domash about her new book Imagination, Creativity and Spirituality in Psychotherapy: Welcome to Wonderland (Psyche and Soul). Join us for a lively and pragmatic conversation about unleashing creativity in the pursuit of authenticity.
Find Dr. Domash here:
https://www.leannedomash.com
Dr. Domash's book: https://www.amazon.com/Imagination-Creativity-Spirituality-Psychotherapy-Wonderland-ebook/dp/B08HSMX7CD
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
And in Hebrew, the word ion means nothing or darkness, but it also means pure potential. Hi, thanks for listening to Doorknob Comments. I'm Farah White. And I'm Grant Brenner. We are psychiatrists on a mission to educate and advocate for mental health and overall wellbeing. In addition to the obvious, we focus on the subtle, often unspoken dimensions of human experience, the so-called Doorknob Comments people often make just as they are leaving their therapist's office.
00:00:32
Speaker
We seek to dispel misconceptions while offering useful perspectives through open and honest conversation. We hope you enjoy our podcast. Please feel free to reach out to us with questions, comments, and requests.
Introducing Leanne Domash
00:00:45
Speaker
Hi, I'm Grant Brenner. I'm here with Farrah White, my podcast co-host, and Leanne Domash. She is a psychologist and psychoanalyst, a playwright, a practitioner of embodied imagination, which is a form of dream work, clinical consultant in NYU postdoctoral training program in psychoanalysis and psychology, and associate clinical professor at the Mount Sinai ICANN School of Medicine.
00:01:10
Speaker
we're going to talk today about some very important concepts for psychotherapy and personal growth. Tell us a little bit about your recent work and your book that you have out. My book is about creativity, imagination, and dream work in psychotherapy. I have a subtitle called Welcome to Wonderland. I'm alluding to Alison Wonderland, who was a great source of inspiration for me as a child growing up in
00:01:37
Speaker
small conservative Pennsylvanian town and my family were Orthodox Jews. And somehow I learned about the 621 rules and I wanted to follow each one of them. And so this was like a kind of obsessive compulsive start to my growth. And then I read Alice in Wonderland maybe a hundred times and I was amazed by it. Dreams and
00:02:05
Speaker
changing shapes. I think she changes shapes 11 times and all of these things just opened up the world to me and it gave me a counterbalance to this atmosphere I was in. I really wrote it for clinicians to become more able to use creativity in therapy for maybe patients to take a look at it and learn how they can be more creative.
00:02:30
Speaker
just in general for people to learn that there are so many different ways we can be creative. And I try to enumerate at least six or seven different types of imagination in the
Childhood Influences and Imagination
00:02:43
Speaker
book.
00:02:43
Speaker
I'm really intrigued by the Alice in Wonderland part. Now, the 621 rules, is that from Alice in Wonderland or from the Talmud? No, that's from Orthodox Judaism. You have to follow these rules. I was very literal. I started going to Hebrew school when I was six, and I would just sit there with my hands folded on my desk, worshiping the rabbi and everything he said.
00:03:12
Speaker
Whereas most of the kids in class were boys and they were creating enormous havoc, running around, running out of the room, screaming, yelling, and I would just sit there. I just wanted to hear another rule. And so how do you think?
00:03:31
Speaker
reading a book like Alice in Wonderland where there really are no rules and it's all fantasy. Did you find it at first either destabilizing or destabilizing? No, I didn't. I just loved it. I was just intrigued and I just kept rereading it and just the idea of dreams and then later
00:03:56
Speaker
I kind of like, it was kind of interesting. No one ever mentioned psychologist in my town or in my community. I never heard of it, but my mother got ladies home journal delivered to the house. And I would read a column by Bruno Bettelheim and he would talk about psychology and psychoanalysis. And I would read it every month and I loved it. And then later I taught Hebrew school
00:04:25
Speaker
And I had a very disturbed girl in my class who was adopted, which was also something I had never heard of. I just on my own picked up the telephone. There was one phone in the house in the living room and somebody overheard this and later, years later, she said she couldn't believe I did this. I picked up the phone. I called the mother. I was 16. I called the mother and I started giving the mother counseling for her daughter.
00:04:52
Speaker
I didn't ask anybody or anything. I just, I had read Bruno Bellheim, so I knew something I thought. So I gave her advice, the mother, and then the girl started getting better in the class. And so of course this like really spurred me on, you know, so. Do you remember what you told her? I don't remember. I wish I did. I don't remember, but you know, I felt that I knew what to say. He was quite brilliant.
00:05:21
Speaker
Yeah. People maybe don't know who he was nowadays, but he had a very strong influence.
00:05:28
Speaker
He did. He did. And he also wrote wonderful things about myths and fairy tales. And now I'm involved in a very creative project with one of your other guests, Terry Marks-Tarlow, a graphic novel, which is a little bit like a myth about trauma. And Bettelheim, of course, wrote a lot about that as well.
00:05:52
Speaker
I had some kind of parallel experience as a kid where I read Freud and Jung's work sort of synopses and it lent some level of therapeutic engagement with my classmates. Okay, so you were informally analyzing them.
00:06:10
Speaker
And the price was right, too. Well, yeah, I gave them a discount. Of course, you know, friends and family, we won't joke about money. It's not
Themes of Alice in Wonderland
00:06:21
Speaker
appropriate. But what about Alice in Wonderland? I'm curious, like, what are your favorite passages? Or to me also, it's all about rules, Alice in Wonderland. But they're sort of hidden and twisted up. But I think Charles Little, a.k.a. Lewis Carroll,
00:06:37
Speaker
you know, was very into math puzzles, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was. Talk about brilliant. Oh, my God. Yeah. So I love the one where Alice says you can't believe in impossible things. And the Queen says to her, well, that's not true. Sometimes I believe as many as six impossible things before breakfast.
00:07:02
Speaker
and things like that. And of course I love the Cheshire Cat. I love the Mad Hatter. And I love the idea of that tea time being set in time where it's always tea time. It's just like, it's amazing. It's like Foucault. The White Rabbit is always late though.
00:07:21
Speaker
Yeah. The Hatter is mad, presumably because they used to make hats with mercury, which would cause neurological problems. Right, right. And then there's a lot of things in Alice in Wonderland, which relates to trauma. I'm curious what you think Farrah about time slowing down and speeding up. And there's a psychedelic element, but also people sometimes talk, I think, about temporal lobe seizures.
00:07:46
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and that Alice could have been someone who had temporal lobe epilepsy, which changes the size of things, makes them look larger or smaller, writing a lot, or maybe Charles Little did, and then religious presence and, you know, there's some other symptoms that temporal lobe epilepsy is reminiscent of what happens in Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass. I know, I think it's fascinating.
00:08:11
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I would love to have seen the play that you wrote just as a way to reconcile, I don't know, your history and the biblical part and then, you know, Alice and the fantasy, but also some of the more maybe sinister elements. Yeah, we were trying to, yeah, we were trying to do that. And we meant it really, we were hoping it could be used to teach clinicians or to teach students about trauma.
00:08:41
Speaker
there's a sense of multiple self-states, which is a powerful metaphor and more in trauma theory. How does that theme come up in your book?
Dream Work and Psychological Approaches
00:08:52
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Well, you might say the multiple self-states comes up in my dream work, although the originator of the dream work wouldn't call it a multiple self-state, but you could look at it that way. Because what you do in this embodied imagination is,
00:09:08
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You tell me a dream and then there could be one image in the dream that is very much your habitual self, how you see yourself. Normally you recognize yourself. Then there are a couple of others in the dream that are totally alien to how you see yourself.
00:09:24
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And I help the patient embody those different images, like feel into them, become them, and then integrate them into one composite which you practice. So you kind of
00:09:39
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you integrate yourself and alien states. Right. That's like Robert Bosnak and Carl Jung, where every person in the dream, even every object in the dream is a facet of the dreamer. So for listeners, you know, next time you have a dream, the idea is kind of like, OK, every entity in the dream could be me, right?
00:10:01
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It could be a person. That's what Jung says, what you said, but Bosnak diverges from Jung and says, no, these are alien intelligences that you can learn from.
00:10:15
Speaker
Ah, so it's it's another way of looking at it. And so he doesn't say they're parts of you. He says these are new things that are coming into your life that you learn about. They must be coming from somewhere within the dreamer. No, or it's
00:10:31
Speaker
Yeah, he would not. He he's a little mystical. He would say, I don't know where they're coming from. I said that to him, too, because he said, who knows who's having the dream? I said, who do you think is having the dream, the dreamer? He said, I don't know. But anyway, he he's very interesting and he he gets people into this hypnagogic state so that they can become not just
00:10:54
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say a monster in the dream, but they become a wave. They become the lamp. From his view, everything is alive. It's very like Spinoza.
00:11:04
Speaker
Though I seem to remember when Carl Jung kind of went through his phase of deep introspection. He has what some people like into a psychotic period in his life. Didn't he have like a dream figure who was like a kind of a guru who led him maybe? And so there is sort of a root of an alien coming from within that isn't a part of us. Yeah, yeah.
00:11:31
Speaker
the collective unconscious kind of like genetic memory or something. Yeah, we know things are passed down from generation to generation, whether it's genetic or emotional. Like you can remember things that happened to your grandparents. Yeah, well, you know, I feel if my plays were like that.
00:11:51
Speaker
I have one play that I love, actually. Oh, that's another thing. You had mentioned tips for creativity. And I had said, I was thinking, you really have to love your project like it's your child.
00:12:06
Speaker
I am a person afflicted or not who loves what they do. I mean, people can criticize it and I will correct it. It tells the story of two women, the friendship between two women in a forced labor camp in World War Two, and it's called a joke for Bella.
00:12:24
Speaker
And they tell each other jokes to keep the morale up. And these are all jokes that were actually told in the camps that somebody collected these into a book called Laughter in Hell. So and also the use of delusion to keep your spirits up. But I felt from doing the play
00:12:45
Speaker
that I cured. My mother and grandmother were very, very upset during World War II because a lot of their relatives in Europe were taken and they knew it and they could do nothing about it. This anguish was passed down to me and I felt by writing the play, even though my mother and grandmother died many years ago, I felt I was helping them with their trauma.
00:13:07
Speaker
and also helping me with mine, because theater is a fantastic way to work with trauma because of the aesthetic distance so that you can gain perspective
Creative Process and Personal Insights
00:13:18
Speaker
but identify at the same time. And I wonder, sort of, you say that you love your projects as though they're your children, you know, some thinking of this sort of lineage that gets passed down. In terms of how you know
00:13:36
Speaker
You know what you want to pursue and when you want to pursue it because it sounds like you're quite a prolific writer and, and how do you know that something is going to be right for you. Well this is an interesting question because this is something I've thought about a lot. Like, where do ideas come from.
00:13:54
Speaker
And I've written some academic papers about this, about the neuropsychological underpinnings of aha experiences, because that's an idea, an aha. It's not something you can in any way force. And sometimes it can come from working with dreams.
00:14:12
Speaker
Sometimes it can come in the shower, maybe been working on it in some way in your sleep and you just get the idea. And again, this is to me again, another child thing. It's like, to me, a project is like a pregnancy. And towards the end of the pregnancy, I conceive a new project. And that's when I feel best when that happens. You know that it's going to come to an end. And so you need something new.
00:14:41
Speaker
I think it's a question of relaxing into it and it's your intuition. You know when it's something you want to work on and when it's something you don't want to work on.
00:14:52
Speaker
Sometimes I'll get sparked by an idea. Like I heard this wonderful podcast about this man who worked on the Golden Gate Bridge. He was a police officer and his job was only to save people who are going to jump. Because so many people try to commit suicide that they had to sign one person to patrol the bridge at night. And from that, I got an idea for a play.
00:15:18
Speaker
You know, called the jumper, where the person was on the bridge and and someone came and kind of a lay minister like a kind of a homeless kind of a preacher guy came along to help her.
00:15:33
Speaker
And they reversed roles and actually the lay minister jumped and she tried to stop him. So it because it came out that the reason he did this was because he he had lost his mother to suicide. So he was trying to stop people. But then in the end, he did it.
00:15:52
Speaker
But it got sparked by this podcast. So you that's another thing that you need to do is you need to stimulate your creativity and find inspiration, whatever appeals to you. And you never know when you might get an inspiration. I think they put up nets around the Golden Gate Bridge now. Oh, they've they've learned that that actually prevents a lot of suicide because, you know, the moment passes
00:16:17
Speaker
Yeah, but that's a that's a powerful. It sounds like a powerful play. It almost reminds me of.
00:16:24
Speaker
waiting for Godot or something like that. Yeah, this was a series of short 10 minute plays that I wrote that I presented one evening and that was one of the three. Another one was a kind of blasphemous thing, which I really enjoy. It's called Two Heads Are Better Than One and it's like it was a psychiatrist with a very borderline patient.
00:16:48
Speaker
And it was, I thought, very funny, but I presented it to go to a festival. This is a festival for therapists who were writers, and they thought it was completely disrespectful, but therapy. And I think they used the word blasphemous. And I said, you know, that's the biggest compliment I ever got.
00:17:11
Speaker
Isn't that what playwrights are supposed to be? But what happened was in the play, the therapist loses, has so much countertransference towards this patient and really has become erotically obsessed with her. And the patient has to really cure the therapist. It's similar.
00:17:32
Speaker
Yeah, right. A similar theme of a role reversal. And also the actors in that were so good. They made it so much better than my play was because the psychiatrist was so uptight and hypocritical. It was beautiful. It was really beautiful. I would think therapists would like that.
00:17:52
Speaker
Yeah, well, this group, I'll tell you that is the detection of the psychiatrist. But when you say a borderline patient or person, just for listeners, what are we speaking about?
00:18:05
Speaker
You know, actually, I correct myself. She really wasn't borderline. He was making her borderline. Like he was gaslighting her? Yes, he was gaslighting her. But by borderline, I mean where you're sort of like you're very unstable and very volatile and coming out with all kinds of things that are very outrageous and blaming other people and, you know, generally a very unstable person who's very worried about abandonment.
00:18:33
Speaker
doesn't know who they are very clearly doesn't have a sense of self but he had created that in her and it was a cautionary tale about countertransference can i ask what inspired it or
00:18:47
Speaker
that too, personal or too. I don't know exactly. Maybe just to make fun of ourselves, because I think we take ourselves too seriously sometimes. And also it's a cautionary tale about countertransference, but I also have a feeling, I don't know what you feel. There is also now such political correctness that people are afraid to talk about sex with patients.
00:19:12
Speaker
because they're afraid they're going to be accused of something. So I kind of wanted to break that barrier too and have the whole thing was about eroticism. But it was reverse. It was not an erotic transference. It was an erotic countertransference just to get people talking about it.
Biblical Metaphors in Mental Health
00:19:32
Speaker
I think everyone is afraid of some kind. It's cancellation culture and all that.
00:19:37
Speaker
Both of those plays have actually they don't both but there's something about a preacher right in the first one and you were mentioning your upbringing and the rabbi and.
00:19:47
Speaker
Yeah, I bring a lot of biblical stuff in all the time in the book that I wrote. I mean, I talk about Joseph and the trauma and I love. See, that's another thing about metaphor is that I think is interesting in terms of poetry. But I think the reason everyone is so turned off by Bible studies and religion and everything is because
00:20:13
Speaker
We learn it when we're very young, when we're very literal, and of course it makes no sense literally. But if you start to look at some of the stories metaphorically,
00:20:23
Speaker
They make so much sense. And they're very beautiful. And there are a lot of examples of it. Like, for example, when Moses, when God punishes the people of Israel for losing faith in him, and nobody is going to live to get to the promised land as they leave Egypt, it sounds like ridiculous.
00:20:49
Speaker
But then if you think about what happens to people when they lose faith, it's very, and I don't just mean faith in God, I mean faith in therapy, faith in a marriage, faith in the world, terrible things happen. Faith in ourselves. Yeah, terrible things happen. And so I take it as a metaphor for that rather than this angry God who punishes people.
00:21:14
Speaker
I was thinking it's like it's like mental health advice, sort of like kosher laws. Like some of them were like, don't eat these foods because they had diseases. Right. But so it sort of evolved to protect people without knowing sort of the reasons behind it. And then it gets passed on in in a concrete way. Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:34
Speaker
Right. You could take from the kosher laws, you could just say, think of eating as a sacred act that you can do it in a way that's very respectful to your body and respectful to your family and it's a chance to come together. Another thing I should mention about my background is for a while I was in the divinity school. I was going to ask you if you considered being a clergy person.
00:22:01
Speaker
Well, the thing is, at that time, no women could become rabbis. That was out of the question. But there weren't even any females in the Divinity School because they were all males becoming. So I was like the only one in the class. This was a graduate school. In the book of Jeremiah, there's this story about the potter and his clay.
00:22:24
Speaker
The idea, at least according to one interpretation, is that the potter is making the pot and he thinks he knows what the pot is going to become, but eventually the pot tells the potter what it's going to be. To me, this is a metaphor for everything. It's a metaphor for raising a child, for treating a patient,
00:22:47
Speaker
for being with a partner, you know. Similar to both of the short plays you mentioned where again there's a sort of a transformation between two people and their roles. Well they don't just reverse. How would you put it? What happens? What is the equation that you're describing that maybe brings forth creativity? In the jumper
00:23:09
Speaker
That preacher helped the woman, but in his helping the woman, he got so in touch with his own trauma and trying to help her that he couldn't go on. In the second one, the patient starts to free associate with the therapist and helps the therapist to some extent, but really helps herself, free herself from that therapist. It's sort of a take on forensics.
00:23:37
Speaker
dialogue of unconsciousness where he would free associate with the patient. Yeah, people talk about mutual analysis. So for listeners, that's like playing around early on in the development of psychoanalysis with reducing the boundaries. Nowadays, we tend to be more boundaried
00:23:58
Speaker
But Firenze was one of Freud's close disciples and friends, and he played with getting much closer to patients than we usually advise now. And by the way, I think the same thing happened to him, as happened to my lay preacher, because there was this, I think it was Elizabeth Severin as her real name, but this was a patient that was so demanding of him,
00:24:23
Speaker
saw him like seven days a week. They stayed in hotels together in separate rooms. She drove him crazy. He died shortly after that. And she went on to New York to become a psychoanalyst. I mean, it was like. It's like invasion of the body snatchers. Like the stealing the person's power and identity like almost like a vampire. Yeah, because that's exactly how I think of her. And yeah.
00:24:50
Speaker
Scary stuff. So in the play with the patient and the therapist, the therapist was stealing the power from the patient, but the patient suggested that they both free associate and then the patient was able to emancipate herself.
00:25:06
Speaker
How does that relate to creativity and kind of coming back to some of the things and what would you tell listeners about how to release their creativity? If the things that we create are like our children, then you have to have some healthy narcissism. I was wondering what might block creativity.
00:25:25
Speaker
What blocks creativity is perfectionism, is negative self judgment, is being afraid to make mistakes. You have to be happy to make mistakes. And mistakes are great because that, you know, you build on that. And sometimes a mistake turns into something great. You know, I know in this children's book called The Beautiful Oops, which is like a written book and how they turn these blotches into these gorgeous illustrations.
00:25:53
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds that's exactly what I mean. And but I think like for people to access their creativity, first of all, they need inspiration. They have to find it somewhere, whatever you like. I like poetry, so I can read a poem and get very inspired. Or you can take a walk in nature and just stare at a tree, which is an unbelievable object.
00:26:18
Speaker
And I also think find a way to get into your unconscious because that's where the creativity is. We have to kind of shift from more logical thinking to more imagistic whole brain type of thinking and kind of
00:26:35
Speaker
relax into that so that you let ideas bubble
Overcoming Creative Blocks
00:26:39
Speaker
up. You have to listen to these ideas. The Russian poet Mandelstam said that he always listens to the hum in his ears because he heard the poem first as a musical phrase, which then evolved into words.
00:26:57
Speaker
So you have to listen to the hum in your ears. This goes back to your question Farrah about how do you know? You have to listen. It's there in you, but you have to listen to it. Again, you have to be willing to fight those enemies. You have to make mistakes. You have to take chances. You have to be bold. And also you have to work hard. That's a sad part, perhaps, but you really have to work hard to bring a creative idea.
00:27:23
Speaker
into existence, and it takes many hours. That's where you need faith. If you lose faith, you're going to abandon your project. And I know people toy with losing faith, because everybody who writes a book says, why am I doing this? This doesn't mean anything. No one will read it.
00:27:42
Speaker
but you have to work through that and understand that that is part of the process, but you can't give into it. Another favorite idea I have about creativity is you have to learn to tolerate the void. You have to learn to tolerate chaos and uncertainty, lack of form. The Kabbalah talks about that the earth was created when God contracted to create a void, and from this void came everything.
00:28:11
Speaker
And in Hebrew, the word iron means nothing or darkness, but it also means pure potential. And from this emptiness that you may feel in the midst of your project, something will come from nothing. And that I think is a very important thing to understand.
00:28:30
Speaker
and it's hard for everyone, myself included, to go through those periods where you don't think it's worth anything and it's like falling apart and it has no shape and you simply need to find the faith somewhere to keep at it. That's great advice and will serve as inspiration for a lot of listeners. All these things are normal parts of the process. Eventually,
00:28:59
Speaker
you know, you come to the end of the journey, hopefully only to begin a new one. I think that I think tolerating that uncertainty or that emptiness and making use of it in some way, allowing something to grow out of it is. Exactly. That's the thing. Embracing it without being consumed. Treating it metaphorically because you have to see, you have to go into it, but you have to also gain perspective from it.
00:29:27
Speaker
Yeah, the burning bush, it burned, but it was not consumed. You have to have a double identity, I think, in a way, narcissistically, because you have to feel both incredibly grandiose as a creator. At the same time, you have to live with the possibility that it is meaningless.
00:29:46
Speaker
People talk in in terror management theory, they talk about how important mortality is and people's fears of annihilation drive kind of meaning and meaninglessness. What I'm thinking about is some work where
00:30:02
Speaker
people who are creators have less fear because they have what they call symbolic immortality, like the sense that your work will live on, which is different from the religious idea of literal immortality. Right, right. Yeah. The work lives on and also like with my play, I felt I was affecting my grandmother and mother.
00:30:27
Speaker
because symbolically, that's what it seemed like. So it's very magical, really, when you think about it. It does sort of transcend space and time. I suspect that's true in a literal sense. I'm thinking of studies where therapy that is effective for trauma shows changes in epigenetic coding of stress genes. And these things can all coexist, the symbolic, the metaphorical, the literal, biological.
00:30:57
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I have a chapter on biological creativity in my book. And, you know, that was inspirational to me to learn more about that, because I don't know how many billions of possibilities there are, I forget, at creation. But the way the sperm and the egg line up and then they divide, you have so many possibilities. I mean, this is unbelievable to think, you know,
00:31:26
Speaker
that kind of biological creativity and how our immune system can learn.
00:31:32
Speaker
and how we can lose a finger and neurons can adapt to that. They don't do it in a programmatic way. Each assault is different and the body has creative ways of adjusting to it. Plasticity. When you said how you can lose a finger, I completed the sentence in my mind with, and you still have nine more.
00:32:01
Speaker
It's a wonderful book. There's so much more we could say. This is such a stimulating conversation. I just want to thank you so much for joining us. I'm wondering where can people find you and where can they get a copy of your book?
00:32:17
Speaker
Well, it's on Amazon. The title is Imagination Creativity and Spirituality in Psychotherapy Welcome to Wonderland. It's also on Rutledge, which is the publisher, their website. And it has a beautiful cover. Oh, yeah, doesn't it? I know the two heads. So it fits with the doubling. Yes. Held together by like a flower.
00:32:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And it's, yeah, we were able to look through hundreds and hundreds of images to choose. And when I saw that one, I said, see, this is what I mean by Farah, your question. I felt it in my stomach. This is it.
00:32:58
Speaker
Yeah. So imagination, creativity, and spirituality, and psychotherapy, psyche and soul.
Closing Remarks and Book Information
00:33:04
Speaker
Welcome to Wonderland by Leanne Domash. And your website is lean, n-e-d-o-m-a-s-h.com. Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure. Total pleasure. So a lot of fun and very inspirational. I'm sure our listeners will also be inspired. Thank you.
00:33:27
Speaker
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