Transcript
Speaker: The job of the parenting coordinator is really child-centered and it's all about kids and really nothing else.
Speaker: Hey there, my name is Annabelle, your host, dog mom, musical theater lover, life enthusiast, and practicing family law lawyer. But most importantly, fellow traveler on this wild, beautiful journey we call life.
Speaker: And it's a real pleasure to meet you. I'm a Cheshire girl who swapped the rolling hills of England for the stunning Okanagan Valley. I earned my undergraduate degree in psychology from UBC Okanagan, but my path was always leading to law.
Speaker: So I packed my bags, headed off to Scotland, where I tackled law school at the University of Edinburgh and earned my LLB with distinction. Because who doesn't love a bit of a challenge, right?
Speaker: Well, now I'm back in Canada, living on the gorgeous West Coast in Victoria, British Columbia. And I am in the thick of my career as a family lawyer. My goal? To build a safe space where I can help you navigate the tough challenges that come with separation and divorce and empower you to turn this challenge into an opportunity to rebuild, rebrand and refocus your future.
Speaker: Welcome to That Was So Real, where my goal becomes reality. This podcast is your safe space. I believe that obtaining your legal separation is only the beginning of your new journey, and I'm here to save you time and connect you with the resources you need to move forward stronger and better than ever.
Speaker: Think of this as your guide to creating a life you'll love, whether you're still in the midst of your family law journey or already embracing your new chapter.
Speaker: Hey everyone, welcome back to That Was So Real, the podcast where we dive deep into all things family law, especially for those of you navigating the twists and turns of separation and divorce.
Speaker: Now today's episode is a real treat. I was beyond honored and excited to have John Paul Boyd join me as our first expert guest on the show. john paul is an accredited family law arbitrator mediator and parenting coordinator he is a member of the bars in both alberta and british columbia and he had over fourteen years of experience practicing family law in vancouver before taking a position as the executive director of the canadian research institute for law and the family in twenty thirteen
Speaker: Now, since 2018, he has been back in private practice, offering his expertise throughout Alberta and British Columbia. John Paul's accomplishments go far beyond his years of experience.
Speaker: He was appointed Queen's Counsel, now King's Counsel, in 2019, and he has been recognized with multiple awards. He's also been recognized by Best Lawyers in Canada since 2010.
Speaker: What an incredible resume and that doesn't even cover all of it. I couldn't help myself but to share one more accomplishment of John Paul's and it's that he's also the founding author of the award-winning public legal education resource JP Boyd on Family Law, now in its fourth print edition and its former companion blog, the first legal blog cited in a Canadian court judgment.
Speaker: Despite all of John Paul's accomplishments, he's a very down-to-earth so I'm sure he doesn't want me to sit here and talk any longer about his resume. So let's get into the topic of today's episode.
Speaker: Now I know i kept today's episode topic pretty hush-hush, but here you have it. John Paul joined me to discuss all things parenting coordination. Now, if you're not already familiar with what a parenting coordinator does, or even if you are, but you could use a refresher, this episode will give you all the insights you need.
Speaker: We dive into how parenting coordinators help parents who are struggling with high conflict co-parenting implement their parenting orders or agreements when day-to-day decisions need to be made for their children.
Speaker: So whether you are a co-parent in need of a little bit of extra help navigating disputes between you and your ex, or you're just someone interested in learning more, i am sure you will find a ton of value in this episode.
Speaker: So let's get started.
Speaker: John Paul, hello. It's truly an honor to have you here as one of the very first guests on That Was So Real. Thank you so much for joining me today. happy to be here, Annabelle. That's great. Well, I know we're going to barely scratch the surface of the wealth of knowledge and expertise you have in the family law field in just one episode.
Speaker: But I also know that myself and the listeners are going to get so much value out of our topic of discussion here today, which is the role of the parenting coordinator. But before we get into it, I've briefly introduced you already, but why don't you tell our listeners what you're up to these days?
Speaker: What does your practice look like? but Tell us about a day in the life of John Paul.
Speaker: Well, I guess ah just this year will be my 25th anniversary of practicing nothing but family law. spent the first 14 years of my practice as a litigator in Vancouver before moving to Calgary to run the Canadian Research Institute for Law and and the Family at the University of Calgary.
Speaker: The institute closed down in 2018, and since that time, I've been working exclusively as a mediator, arbitrator, and parenting coordinator. Wow, that's ah quite ah the history there. ah You must be very, very busy.
Speaker: i certainly am, yes. so Well, on that note, seeing as I know this is valuable time we're spending here today, let's get into it. Please, can you tell our listeners what the heck is a parenting coordinator?
Speaker: Well, um perhaps a little bit of history. So parenting coordination got started in California in the 1990s when it was known as the Special Master Program.
Speaker: And what was going on in California at that time is that lawyers were becoming less and less affordable. So as a result, ah people involved in separation and family breakdown were increasingly coming to court by themselves without lawyers helping them now i i'll just pause to say that in the United States as as in Canada, the courts don't belong to me. They don't belong to the judges. They belong to people.
Speaker: There's no law that says that you have to come to court with a lawyer or
Speaker: um but the problem that that that the courts were experiencing in California is that um that there was a certain group of people who were coming to court um over family law disputes and and they didn't have lawyers and what they were bringing to the judge to decide were, you know, relatively trivial concerns about somebody being a few minutes late or a few minutes early.
Speaker: but getting a child's haircut or a choice of clothing and things of that nature um which which normally don't preoccupy the court's time and wound up sort of boggging things down and the courts and the the lawyers um recognized that you know the people that were bringing these rather small kind of concerns to the court, um you know, were coming to court very frequently and really using a whole bunch of the the system's resources.
Speaker: And so what they thought they would do is they would they they they created a program where the more conflictual parents would be steered out of the court system in into the care of a mediator.
Speaker: um And the idea at the time was that the mediator would help um those parents resolve their disagreements you know by their by their consent you know a settle and um and instead of having to go to court.
Speaker: And each set of parents would be assigned to one particular mediator who would work with them throughout the you know throughout for a lengthy term of time, say six months to two years, something like that.
Speaker: um And ah that program turned out to work really quite well. And the next change in what became Parenting Coordination was when it was adopted in in Colorado, where it actually received the name parenting coordination.
Speaker: And by the time it got to Colorado, um the the way it looked at that point was that the individual who parents were assigned to um was not only given the authority to work as a mediator to try to resolve disagreements with every, know, by reaching a settlement between the parents.
Speaker: but in the event that a settlement couldn't be reached and the parenting coordinator would also be able to make a decision resolving that issue sort of in the manner of an arbitrator and parenting coordination got rolling in British Columbia sometime around 2007 when myself and a couple of other lawyers and a mental health professional set up a steering committee to establish parenting coordination in the province and but and this happened to be the the very first province in canada to adopt parenting coordination
Speaker: and when we were working to sort of set it up the the The thing that was so wonderful about the process was that we had a blank slate. um You know, mediation had been established in British Columbia in the late nineteen ninety s early two thousand um then arbitration at that point was almost exclusively reserved for commercial disputes between you know banks or employers and employees and unions and things of that nature.
Speaker: And so um the lawyers who were sort of participating in this, the mental health professional, were all of the view that this was something that could really help um that small but very persistent group of parents who just seemed locked in elevated levels of conflict um about things that many other parents would be able to resolve by themselves.
Speaker: And so The way parenting coordination looks today, um at least in British Columbia, because certainly how it's been adopted in other provinces such as Alberta um is very different than than the BC model.
Speaker: um So how it looks is this. Parenting coordinator has sort of two kinds of jobs. um The first job is to resolve disagreements about parenting issues when they arise.
Speaker: um And the second job is to work with the parents on a almost therapeutic level to help them improve their ability to communicate with each other their capacity to put the children's needs first and foremost and ahead of their own um and and improve their conflict resolution skills.
Speaker: um So there really are these sort of two streams, right? that The one is fixing problems on the daily as they come up. And the second is sort of a more long-term kind of outlook that, you know, from from my point of view, I'm i trying to get parents to a place where where they not only don't need me they don't need lawyers and they don't need judges
Speaker: of problems. Wow. Wow. that And that's quite the history. And it sounds like the implementing it here in BC, you were pivotal in that process. And it must have been, ah yeah how long did that take to get it all together? And how does that look now for us practicing? Well, it took a couple of years to say the least to sort of set up the what became the BC Parenting Coordinators Roster Society, which is today still the the preeminent parenting coordinators sort of organization.
Speaker: ah But what made BC really special is that just by some sheer chance of fate, um we were working, putting together parenting coordination at the same time as the provincial government was engaged in this massive overhaul of the legislation that had been forced in the province essentially untouched since nineteen seventy eight and so right at the same time as the provincial government was thinking in really big terms about entirely overhauling how we deal with family property and entirely overhauling how we deal with parenting after separation.
Speaker: Parenting coordination came along and we were lucky enough that the provincial government actually included specific provisions ah for parenting coordination in the Family Law Act.
Speaker: um And that's not something that you see in almost any other province i believe in Ontario has specific provisions for parenting coordination, but I'm not aware of any other provinces that do.
Speaker: Oh, wow. Okay. That's, ah yeah, certainly very interesting. And I mean, it's good for people who are listening here to know exactly what those kinds of types and types of arguments that that that a parenting coordinator can address because we hear terms like arbitration, for example.
Speaker: If I'm telling a client the difference between arbitration and parenting coordination, you know, how do those two compare?
Speaker: Well, so that there are some subtle differences. um Obviously, um the the two major components of resolving disputes through the parenting coordination process are mediation and arbitration.
Speaker: And mediation and arbitration are two of the most common ways that family law problems are resolved other than going through court. And they're very different. in mediation the job of the mediator is to help ah facilitate the conversation between the parties to a dispute, identify underlying interests, and sometimes propose creative options for compromise that may not have occurred to anybody.
Speaker: But the important thing is that the mediator can't make decisions. All they can do is they can talk to people, they can persuade, they can say, this sounds like a pretty good deal. But at the end of the day, it's up to the parties involved in the dispute to actually reach a settlement with which they are both happy.
Speaker: In arbitration, on the other hand, it the situation is entirely different. The arbitrator is sort of like a private judge, and the people who are involved in the dispute agree that the arbitrator will make a decision resolving their dispute.
Speaker: with you know which they will be bound by um and so And so it is a lot like the court process, but it doesn't need to look just like what happens in court. In arbitration, you've got a lot of flexibility in setting up how things get resolved.
Speaker: So when we were talking about parenting coordination, obviously that the the two basic elements of decision ah ah settling a dispute are mediation and arbitration.
Speaker: But the parenting coordinator works in a different kind of environment. in parenting coordination, it's not a confidential process, right? The parenting coordinator is able to move beyond the ethical boundaries that usually constrain mediators.
Speaker: So as a parenting coordinator, for example, I can have one-on-one conversations with a party, and I don't need to tell the other person what was happening. As a mediator, I could never do that except in the context of a mediation meeting itself, right?
Speaker: So we knew that it was going to include something that was mediation or mediation-like, but wasn't quite mediation. And then in the arbitration side of things, as an arbitrator, my job is to hear evidence, hear arguments about the evidence and arguments about the law, and then make my decision by applying the law to the facts as I've decided them to be.
Speaker: In arbitration, in parenting coordination, that is, um we wanted a more streamlined process. So as a parenting coordinator, I will sometimes move directly from discussing the issues and trying to reach a settlement with the party straight into the arbitration phase, and i'll and I will make a decision right there on the spot.
Speaker: But we never called it mediation. We didn't call it arbitration because we didn't want people come assuming that you know as as you know in the in the decision-making phase that it was that it was going to include all of the trappings of arbitration.
Speaker: so it's So the process itself is a lot like mediation, but isn't exactly mediation. It includes a process that looks like arbitration, but isn't entirely arbitration. The point, though, is to give parents who are caught up in a dispute, whether it's about the kind of medication a child should have, um when the or what what school the child should go to whether the child should be able to miss school to attend the funeral of a relative, or whether there are disputes about what to pack for lunch, or whether a hair should be cut, and if so, how, and all those other things. We're trying to resolve those things in a relatively efficient, speedy kind of way.
Speaker: Still involves a lot of talking, because talking and conversation is the core piece of mediation, um but but it's still designed to be sort of fast and efficient, at least as far as we can make Right.
Speaker: Wow. Okay. And I mean, that was going to be my next question, you know, ah the the process, if I'm coming to you and saying, John Paul, I, you know, I'll use one of your examples. I don't know if I can come to an agreement with my ex-partner about X type of medication.
Speaker: i need your help. You know, how does that process run from start to finish? You would, I'm guessing you would speak to me and then you would speak to the other person. And yeah, how does that look? Yeah. So the the process, you know, from beginning to end is, first of all, you have to get into parenting coordination, right? And according to the BC Family Law Act, parents are able to make an agreement that they will enter a parenting coordination or the court has the capacity to require that people enter parenting coordination, even if one of them doesn't agree.
Speaker: so what'll happen at that point is that you'll go to see the parenting coordinator and the parenting coordinator will provide you with a participation agreement um this is part contract and it's part a description of the parents duties to each other and the parenting coordinators duties to the parents and to the children um it sets out how the parenting coordinator gets paid and it talks about the kinds of decisions that parenting coordinators can make and the decisions that they can't make, right?
Speaker: So then the the parents who are involved in the dispute will sign the agreement, the parenting coordinator signs the agreement. And then at that point, there's usually a an initial meeting between the parents and the parenting coordinator where the parenting coordinator explains the process, tells them how to trigger, you know, a dispute resolution process and explains everything so that both parents get exactly the same information and everybody's on the same page.
Speaker: um So after that, um next thing that happens is a parent will have a problem and they'll bring the problem to the parenting coordinator. So what I will usually do at that point is I'll reach out to the other parent to see if we can't resolve as quickly by an exchange of email and you know with something simple like you know this is my weekend but the other parents' father died and and and they're asking me to make an exception so that the child can go to the funeral
Speaker: something like that um i'll try to resolve that by you know just an exchange of emails perhaps a phone call or two um but if but if that doesn't work out and you know, it does not work out maybe 50% of the cases, then what will happen is is my personal practice is to have a meeting by zoom using of just just a video conferencing technology like teams and the other types of video conferencing thing and we all enter into a ah process that is a lot like mediation
Speaker: where you know i get more information about the nature of the problem and each parent's position on the problem try to solve it by getting to an agreement and if we can't get to an agreement most of the time i will make a determination of what the outcome should be right then and there and then once that meeting is done, um i provide a memo to the parents that sets out, this was the dispute.
Speaker: This is how you reached an agreement. This is the nature of your agreement, which resolves that dispute, or I'll describe that the determination that I've made resolving the dispute.
Speaker: And then as the process goes forward, that basic process repeats where one parent or both parents reach out when they have an issue. try to resolve the issue through a quick exchange of correspondence and telephone calls.
Speaker: If it can't be resolved that way, we have another meeting by video conference and it gets resolved there. and ah And then I issue another memorandum. And so over time, there's, you know, each parent winds up having a little library of my my memos that describe the nature of the issues and how the issues have been resolved so that we can all track keep track of the bouncing ball and how things might be changing in the parenting arrangements for their children.
Speaker: So valuable. And I mean, having those, that library of memos really ends up being such a valuable resource. And it also sounds really valuable that these parents are working with one person who get to know them, who get to know, um you know, their fears, their, you know, the problems that are reoccurring.
Speaker: it it sounds better to me than having one mediation or one court hearing, where yeah you meet a judge or a mediator once and they don't have the full context of your family, right?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. and And that idea of the long-term retainer has been a function of parenting coordination coordination ever since it was known as the Special Master Program in California.
Speaker: This idea of a long-term retainer where thee third party the you know the the parenting coordinator gets to know the parents, gets to know the nature of their disputes, their personalities, and gets to know their children.
Speaker: um And so as a result, you know, the the parenting coordinator, you know, builds up a really good understanding of who these parents are, what they're like as people, and where the hot buttons are in their relationship with each other. um and ah And of course, your your listeners will probably know that lawyers don't have a choice about the judge they get when they go to court neith neither do parties right Essentially, it's the luck of a draw.
Speaker: So in larger urban centers like Victoria, Nanaimo, Kelowna, Vancouver, New Westminster, every time you go to court, you're quite likely to get another judge, especially in really big courts like like Vancouver and New Westminster.
Speaker: On the other hand, um if you're in a smaller location like Duncan, for example, um you know, there might be one provincial court judge and one's up getting the same person.
Speaker: But the problem in in particularly in really big courthouses like Vancouver and New Westminster is that, you know, if parents get a new judge every time they're there, um people often see that as an opportunity to trot out the same complaints and problems that they brought to the last judge and the judge before that and the judge before that.
Speaker: um And that too is one of the things that really bogs down the process especially when those those issues had been dealt with by the previous judge or the judge before that.
Speaker: um So in parenting coordination, you know, you get to know your parenting coordinator, the parenting coordinator gets to know you really quite well. And that has an effect in terms of speeding up the process and the parenting coordinator can anticipate what problems are likely to emerge in the future and kind of head those off at the pass, if that's possible.
Speaker: Right. Yeah, of course. Wow. And so we were talking about um there being an initial ah agreement that the parties have or a court order. So ah as far as getting ducks in a row, that seems kind of pivotal, right? You have to have some sort of an agreement between you about the basics. You know, so how does that look?
Speaker: Well, um like there's one more thing that I probably should have tried to fit in earlier. And it's about um the the the fundamental job of the fundamental job of the parenting coordinator is to help the parents implement their existing parenting plan.
Speaker: So a parenting plan could be part of a separation agreement. It could be something called a parenting agreement. It could be a court order. It could be a collection of cords it could even be an arbitrator's award but it's that document or that collection of documents that describes things like how much parenting time does the child have with each parent what's the schedule of parenting right look like um but it also includes things like how do the how do the parents make decisions for the children who's got what kind of decision making responsibilities right so
Speaker: really if there is an order first of all but you've got to come to the table with is you've got to have an order, a court a separation agreement, that sometimes all of those things that together provides a complete picture of the arrangements you and the other parent have made for the raising of your children now that the two of you are separated.
Speaker: So once that's in place, um then what often happens is parents discover that they run into little conflicts and and disagreements about things. when those disagreements seemed to build up and they seem to happen more often than you wind up reaching an agreement with your with your ex, that's the time to reach out and talk to your ex and say, you know, I've heard about this thing called parenting coordination. This neutral third party person can help us resolve these disputes.
Speaker: um Do you think it would be easiest to use that person instead of going back to court all the time, right? So, or if the other person is very reluctant to engage a parenting coordinator, you can apply to court for an order that a parenting coordinator gets appointed.
Speaker: and so the order of events right is that firstly you've got to have that finished final parenting plan that describes all the aspects involved in raising your kids now that you and your ex are living in separate houses.
Speaker: Then you and your ex need to come to an agreement or get an order requiring you to enter into the parenting coordination process. The parenting coordinator will be given a copy of your parenting plan and all the documents that are sort of behind it and and that's when the parenting coordinator will provide that participation agreement the participation agreement like i said um describes the parenting coordinator's obligations to you, your obligations toward the parenting coordinator, and your obligations towards each other.
Speaker: um And the parenting coordinator will will quite likely require that you get independent legal advice about what that participation agreement means, because that's a really important document, right?
Speaker: It tells you and your ex and the parenting coordinator exactly what the parenting coordinator's authority is, where it begins and where it stops things the parenting coordinator can help with the things the parenting coordinator can't and then that gets signed and the lawyers the people meet will sign something called a certificate of independent legal advice which gets stapled to the back of the agreements that everybody knows that You've had advice about the agreement and that's when the process starts.
Speaker: Right. Okay. That definitely, yeah that clears up a couple of questions I was going to follow up with. So that's, that's very clear now how you get into the process. And it sounds like there's no, nothing too small that a PC could deal with. Right. If it, even if it's, I think you use an example of packed lunches. i mean, that's, that's quite involved, but certainly I'm sure it's come up. Right. I'm i'm sure you've seen,
Speaker: The smallest of disputes and the biggest, but what can you not do as a PC? what When does it become problem beyond what you can help with? So the family-like is helpful um because it and its accompanying regulations.
Speaker: provide a list of the things the parenting coordinator can do and those which they cannot and that's really important um for reasons that and that that are really about the nature of the process and about the things the process is intended to deal with it's also important because parenting coordinators don't need to be lawyers people who are registered clinical counselors or registered psychologists can also work as parenting coordinators and so because we have non-lawyers involved in a legal process
Speaker: it's really important to to have a clear list of what you can do which you can't do so parenting coordinator can um clarify ambiguities in a parenting plan.
Speaker: Like, for example, the parenting plan says that Sandra's time with the kids starts on Saturday. Well, what time on Saturday? Is it at noon? Is it before noon? Is it when the kids wake up? If they're teenagers, that's probably three o'clock in the afternoon, um you know, and other problems that result from that.
Speaker: um Sometimes the parenting coordinator's job is to address the things that you didn't think about talking about when you made your parenting plan
Speaker: five-year-old, the kid's cell phones are not going to be top of mind. Neither is what happens when the kids want to get their belly button pierced or acquire their first tattoo, right? So your parenting agreement probably doesn't say anything about that stuff.
Speaker: So we can help clear up you know issues that were not addressed in your parenting plan. ambiguities in the parenting plan where it's not worded as clearly as it could be things that were just simply never thought of.
Speaker: um We can also make temporary adjustments to a parenting plan, like the example I gave where, you know one parent, their mom or dad died and it's the funeral, but it's the other parent's time.
Speaker: So we can make temporary adjustments to that parenting schedule so that the child can intend that important social ritual of the funeral, right? But the things that we can't do, we can't make anybody who isn't a guardian, a guardian of the children.
Speaker: um We can't give parenting time or contact to somebody who doesn't already have parenting time or contact. um We can't redistribute how parents make decisions and all those different categories of decision making that parents have and sometimes wind up splitting between each other rather than sharing.
Speaker: um We can't make decisions about spousal support. We can't talk about family property and family debt. um In certain circumstances, we can help with child support but it needs to be clear and that needs to be an explicit part of the parenting coordination agreement or the parenting coordinator won't be able to touch it.
Speaker: So mostly it's all about issues that concern parenting, parenting time, schedules, how the schedules operate operate, short-term changes to that kind of thing, how parents make decisions for their kids, not just how they make decisions, but what specific decisions should look like when when those decisions are made.
Speaker: We can touch child support, but only if everybody agrees that we can. ah but we can't do anything else in the in the wide world of family law and that's really important right The job of the parenting coordinator is really child-centered and it's all about kids and really nothing else.
Speaker: Right, right. and And with, you know, just to touch back on the child support piece, it's, you know, I know that one of the things that comes up often is ah the annual review of of people's incomes and and and things like that for the purposes of calculating what those child support obligations will be.
Speaker: Now, that sounds like it might be, ah you know, above and beyond, perhaps that needs to get worked out and you can implement it, help implement it. Is that what I'm hearing or? Yeah, well, um and and and that's one sort of big difference between what mental health professionals can do and what lawyers can do.
Speaker: Mental health professionals can help with child support if it's really, really simple. If you're a lawyer, though, you can engage in a more complicated analysis because, you know, let's say you have a job at the 7-Eleven, but you also run your own company.
Speaker: and sometimes figuring out the income that somebody has for the purposes of child support from a company, or even what they call a sole proprietorship when you work for yourself, but you don't but you don't create a corporation behind you.
Speaker: um Sometimes that can be surprisingly complicated. So sometimes the calculation of income, as you've mentioned, is exactly the kind of thing that you need a lawyer to help you with. And as a parenting coordinator, if you give me that authority and i'm happy to deal with it um it can be complicated but it's usually something that we can work our way through.
Speaker: Right. Okay. All right. And so the process now, if I'm someone thinking, oh gosh, I am arguing constantly about these smaller things and this sounds like a great idea.
Speaker: the you know, the next logical leap is how do I, ah how do I approach this financially? How do I budget for this kind of a service long-term? Is it a ah one-time sort of payment to the parenting coordinator? Is it something that gets worked out over time?
Speaker: Okay, well, there's a couple of bits and pieces there. But if you were the but if you're a parent and you sort of realize that you're, you know, coming into disagreement or conflict with your ex more often than you would like, um first, what I would suggest you do is do a little bit of research about parenting coordination so that you understand what it's all about and what it's like and also how different parenting coordinators work you know i i have a process that's developed over the course of a number of years
Speaker: um but i'm positive that how i work as a parenting coordinator will be different in some ways than how other people work as parenting coordinators. So you need to learn about the process yourself to be satisfied that this is the right thing for me.
Speaker: Then you need to talk to your ex about that. um And, um you know, if you're in luck, your ex will go, yes, we do get into conflict more often than I would like, like that kind of thing. and ah But you want to give them the information that you found about parenting coordination um And make sure, of course, that when you're that when you're doing your research, you're looking at parenting coordination in British Columbia, because it works differently in different places. is you know Anywhere outside of BC, you can't guarantee it's gonna look anything like how parenting coordination looks inside the province. So um so do your research, satisfy yourself that this is a process that is likely to help and going to be more efficient than going to court
Speaker: Give your ex the information so that they have the ability to decide whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. So but that's the first bit. um The second bit, though, is about how do parenting coordinators charge for their services?
Speaker: Well, all parenting coordinators, I would wager, it's hard to imagine anybody who wouldn't, most parenting coordinators are going to charge for their time by the hour, just like your plumber and just like your lawyer did when you were off to court.
Speaker: um So ah the and and just like ah the lawyer that you had when you went off to court, the parenting coordinator will ask for a retainer. Now, the way we developed the idea of a retainer when we were working to set up the bc parenting coordinators were oster society is that we we basically split the traditional lawyer's retainer into two parts a retainer and a deposit.
Speaker: The idea here is that just like your ordinary lawyer, the parenting coordinator will say, I need X dollars before i begin to work. And just like your lawyer, the reason why the lawyer asks you for a retainer, the parenting coordinator asks you for a retainer, it's security for their fees, right? the way a lawyer's retainer works and a parenting coordinator's retainer works is they they ask you to provide a sum of money upfront that money goes into there their trust account
Speaker: still your property but the lawyer is hanging it on the the lawyer or the parenting coordinator is hanging on to it for you. Then when the lawyer or the parenting coordinator send you a bill, they pay their bill from the money i held in your trust in the trust account.
Speaker: And at the end of the day, if there's any money left over in trust, that's still your money. And the lawyer or the parenting coordinator will pay you back whatever whatever is left over after the lawyer or the parenting coordinator has sent out their last bill.
Speaker: no and as we've talked about parenting coordination occurs over a lengthy period of time of anywhere from six to 24 months. I'm sure it could be shorter than six months, but I don't know that anybody would get any use out of it. So most of the time, six to 24 months, that term can be renewed if everybody and the parenting coordinator agrees to renew it.
Speaker: um and some and But you know i've I don't think that I've ever worked on a term that was longer than 24 months. And in fact, in British Columbia, the law says you can't have a term that's any longer than twenty four months but as that term goes on, the lawyer's retainer is going to get drawn down as they issue a bill, the bill gets paid, the issue a bill, the bill gets paid, and the amount that's left over in your retainer is going to get diminished.
Speaker: At that point, the parenting coordinator, just like the lawyer you had going to court, will say, I need you to top up my retainer, and they'll specify the amount of money that they're going to ask for from you.
Speaker: And just like the first payment you made, that payment goes into their trust account, it becomes you know the bank that they draw from when they issue you a bill no because parenting coordination is set up to deal with people who are in elevated levels of conflict sometimes extraordinarily elevated levels of conflict um the the retainer is broken down to two chucks. Like I said, that first part, the ordinary retainer works just like a lawyer's retainer, right? You bill, the retainer gets drawn down. You send out a, you you ask for it to be replenished, then you bill and the retainer gets drawn down.
Speaker: Now the deposit um is sort of like an extra bit of a retainer and it's held aback against the possibility that somebody who is trying to avoid a decision they don't want may decide to get rid of the parenting coordinator by no longer paying them.
Speaker: And just like your plumber, ah parenting coordinator won't work for you if they're not getting paid to do the work and so And so the the deposit um is something that i think of as being separate from the retainer, right?
Speaker: And when the the proper retainer gets run down towards, you know, maybe $500 or less, that's when I say, I need you to replenish your retainer. The purpose of that deposit is to give me funding for...
Speaker: three four five six hours so that I can finish wrapping up a dispute before my services are no longer going to be available to the parties That's basically the idea um of how like that retainer and the deposit work um But the other the other question that's sort of lurking behind what you've asked is really about how much do parenting coordinators cost?
Speaker: Okay, um lookers typically have more expensive hourly rates the more experienced they are the longer you've been working as a lawyer in general the more you charge per hour as your hourly rate.
Speaker: Same thing tends to happen with mental health professionals. The longer you've been working as a clinical counselor, the more you generally charge per hour. um In general, mental health professionals will have an hourly rate that is more digestible than what than the hourly rate that lawyers will ask for. um And the problem that I am keenly aware of is that parenting coordination is time consuming.
Speaker: right i'm not going to gild the lily or around the bush it takes a lot of time. And so what I do is the the work that I do as a parenting coordinator, I do at a rate that is significantly discounted from the rate that I charge for my other ordinary work like mediation and arbitration.
Speaker: And it's to sort of help me be in a position where I can provide my services for longer. um But, you know, the reality is, is that you should expect that the retainer that your parenting coordinator is going to ask for is going to be at least $5,000 five thousand dollars the amount of the deposit I ask for is usually just a straightforward, you know, six hours times my hourly rate.
Speaker: So I'll ask for that as my deposit. And then as the retainer gets drawn down, which depending on how conflictual you and the other parent are, could be in a matter of months or it could be in a year.
Speaker: It's really hard to say. It's just, it all depends on how much my ah much of my time you use. And then i ask for a new retainer. Right. So yeah. um you know the reality about this and the the ugly reality is that parenting coordination can be expensive, right?
Speaker: I'm not going to lie to anybody about that. And that's something that I tell people who are interested in retaining me. They get that information straight up front, because you need to know. And the question that, you know, as a parent, you need to ask yourself um is, you know, which is a better use of my time and my money?
Speaker: Is it better to pay a parenting coordinator to resolve these parenting hiccups as they come up um You know, knowing that this is going to cost a significant amount of money over the next couple of years, or is it better to go off to court and deal with a new judge every time you're there and all of the, you know, gut churning anxiety that goes along with going back to court. So, you know,
Speaker: it's costly but you've got weigh the balance right you hire a parenting coordinator these bumps in the carpet the conflicts that you have will get resolved. There is a chance that you may leave the parenting coordination process better equipped to resolve disputes when they arise and with better communication skills.
Speaker: And, you know, ultimately, which is the way that is going to most protect your children from conflict. Right. Yeah. And I see the value over, I mean, as someone who knows quite a bit about how much it costs to go to court, how long it takes to get into court, I can see the value of having, you know, say a $5,000 retainer go towards, you know, this this relationship that I'm building and the skills that I'm learning, because I'm hearing too, that it's not just about you stepping in and making a decision. It's you're also inspiring some skills in people to better communicate that's you know you're going to help people go forward and hopefully not not need to access the court system so it seems like a you know a more cost effective way to go about it to be quite honest
Speaker: hopefully um but you know you are like If the hope is that in two years you're going to find yourself in a position where you're never going to need to go back to court because you and your ex are going to be such excellent dispute resolvers on your own.
Speaker: You know, the reality is, is that, yeah, there are some parents who don't need much by way of training and skills improvement and work to you know really turn around how they deal with the other parent right But then there are some people who are so committed to the conflict with the other parent and so engaged in a relationship that is highly conflictual, both historically and at present,
Speaker: that frankly um you know the idea that there might be that improvement in dispute resolution skills and communication skills and parenting skills um is, ah is frankly not achievable.
Speaker: Right. And for those parents who are locked into that degree of conflict, you know, the investment that you make in your parenting coordinator is really an investment in resolving disputes as they come up.
Speaker: And you're not going to have that hope of long-term improvement. And in a case like that, you know, i I will often recommend to people that what I think you're looking for is a mediation arbitration agreement, a lot more formal, a lot wider in terms of potential scope.
Speaker: But there's nothing that says that you can't retain a mediator arbitrator in that more formal capacity for a lengthy period of time either. Right. It's just that we're not going to call it parenting coordination.
Speaker: there won't be any pretens of trying to work with parents to improve their dispute resolution skills or their communication skills. And it's going to be nothing but issue comes in, issue gets resolved, goes out. Issue comes in, issue goes out.
Speaker: Right. And just a quick ah bounce back to to cost. I mean, you've thoroughly explained how that all works, but how does it how is it shared between the parties? Is your retainer split between each parent equally?
Speaker: it applied similarly? It's split. has It's split, you know, as the parents may agree. Most people think 50-50 approach is kind of the fair way to go.
Speaker: um Other people will split it in proportion to their income, the way they split the cost of the kids being in scouts, right? um Some people will agree that we'll pay for all of the cost and the other parent won't pay anything. And I i personally do not think that's a good idea because i think that both parents need to have some skin in the game in order to it out of the process.
Speaker: um and And then parenting coordinators do have the ability to allocate their fees more to one parent than another.
Speaker: um That's something that I tend to avoid ah because it comes across as punitive, which it is, um and also because it tends to push people out of the process ah you know to the point where they are disengaging from the process.
Speaker: um I do have the ability to reapportion my fees beyond what the parties have agreed to. But, you know, when if I do that, it will be because somebody has been behaving really badly.
Speaker: You know, they've come to the table in bad faith. um They've dragged their feet. They've canceled meetings at the last minute. They've demonstrated that they're not interested in participating in the process to resolve it.
Speaker: You know, things like that but even then that is
Speaker: me it's it's a step really don't like to take right that makes a lot of sense okay well I have a couple of questions arising just from the discussion um before we wind things up and they may be longer winded than I mean them to be but of course we're talking about parenting so there's children John Paul do you ever meet the children do you ever there ever a circumstance where you have to meet the children or hear from them I do oh absolutely there is um The reality is is that the provincial law of British Columbia and the federal law of Canada ah both require that the views and preferences of children are taken into account.
Speaker: um I mentioned briefly some time ago that parenting coordination is a child-centered process, and indeed it is. um So there are certainly times and circumstances where, you know,
Speaker: the parents and I will benefit if I can speak to the kids. um Let me give you an example. I did have a parenting coordination file some time ago, where one of the parents wanted the child to play baseball during the summer and the other parent wanted to play the child to play soccer.
Speaker: And, um you know, sure enough, you know, kids are smart, they know what side their bread is buttered on. So when the parent who likes soccer said, you want to play soccer this summer, don't you? The kid's i love playing soccer and when the parent who who loved baseball said to the child you want to play baseball the summer don't you? The child would naturally respond, to yes, I'd like to play baseball.
Speaker: Because no, very few children are really keen on disappointing a parent. That doesn't happen until they're well into their teens, right? Well, sometimes earlier than that. So they they tend to sort of adopt the approach that mirrors what the parents are saying.
Speaker: In the meantime, though, the parents are losing their mind, because each one is accusing the other parent of lying, The child told me the child likes soccer. You are lying when you say the child likes to play baseball.
Speaker: And so in a case like that, you know, i mean, of course, I'm going to speak to the child. And in that particular case, you know, the child really did prefer baseball, not by a huge amount, but by a little amount. And, you know, was basically telling each parent what they wanted to hear. but knowing what the child thinks and and kids are really quite happy to talk to me as a parenting coordinator. It's remarkable. I've rarely had a child refuse to to engage with me in a conversation.
Speaker: They're happy to be able to tell stranger you know who's involved with their parents what they really think about things. But sometimes that's the added bit of information that I need to have to to crack the nut.
Speaker: And for parents, it's good to know, yeah, the child really does prefer baseball. soft and it's like, oh yeah, okay, well, if that's what the child wants to do, I can get behind that, right?
Speaker: So I do have the ability to talk to kids. Most of the time it's, you know, if via Zoom or Teams or something like that. um There have been a few circumstances where I've actually gone to visit the kids in their homes with each parent and see where they live and what things look like for them um but you know of course all of that takes time and because it takes time it costs money so that is so speaking to the kids who are visiting their homes is not something that I do on the regular. It's something that I do when a specific need crops up.
Speaker: But it's important to understand that the participation agreement that I have, the parents agree that I can talk to their kids and they agree that I don't necessarily have to tell them everything that their kids have told me.
Speaker: right So that's another reason why it's so important to read that participation agreement and get legal advice about it. Right. Oh, yeah, of course. Of course. And so I just have kind of one question to put you on the spot. But really, it's just about I often hear from clients, you know, i don't think that ah that anyone is going to understand what I've been through with this person.
Speaker: They're so good at persuading someone that. about their what they need and ah but that they're they have the kids' best interests at heart. They're so good at at kind of manipulating professionals.
Speaker: I don't know that, how do I know that this parenting coordinator isn't gonna completely get the wool pulled over their eyes? You know, I mean, this is, you can't generalize for all PCs, but how do you deal with that?
Speaker: Well, you know, the reality is that
Speaker: you know, no human being, whether a lawyer, a judge, or a parenting coordinator is going to ever guarantee that they are beyond callous manipulation by a parent.
Speaker: um And, you know, you do see um efforts in that regard made all the time in court and as a mediator and an arbitrator, I see that as well.
Speaker: um But, um ultimately at the end of the day i don't really consider either parent to be my client. The person that i that i owe my fealty to isn't mom or dad, it's the child.
Speaker: And putting a specifically child-focused lens on it, you know, where you're talking about things like attachment and childhood developmental psychology,
Speaker: um really helps you know change your priorities, where you're going to be less persuaded by somebody who's saying that their ex is, um you know, horrible and should never be trusted. and you know, that they are the only person who ever tells the truth and it gives you a different perspective and i suppose the other thing is is that you know as somebody who's been doing family law for an awfully long time, there's almost nothing that I haven't seen before. And there's nothing I haven't come across.
Speaker: And that means that I've had lots of interactions with, you know, the the people who've
Speaker: um and it's just a matter on you know relying on the professionalism and the experience of the person you're working with. um And I should mention that the rule in British Columbia is that you cannot work as a parenting coordinator unless you've been practicing family law in the case of lawyers for at least 10 years.
Speaker: So that's a very significant amount of experience that you have to have to even walk in through the door. And so anybody that says, I am a parenting coordinator, you can be pretty positive that that person has got a lot of experience dealing with families and family breakdown.
Speaker: Wow, okay, 10 years. Yeah, that's ah pretty impressive. If you haven't seen everything in 10 years, I mean, I'm sure new things crop up, but you've got a ah ah wealth of knowledge about the dynamics of different families, right?
Speaker: Okay, last substantive question, I think would be, you'd mentioned research and and finding a PC and looking into the process. So how do you have maybe a couple tips just about how to find a parenting coordinator and sort of where to look to get that grander understanding of what what you do.
Speaker: Well, so the easiest thing is that if you happened to have a lawyer when you were if you were going to court or even if you were just mediating mediating a dispute ask your lawyer um you know the reality is is that you we know most of the other people who practice family law, and we generally know which of those people also provide services as a parenting coordinator.
Speaker: We're also likely to know which mental health professionals provide that service as well. So first of all, ask your lawyer, because a personal referral is always best the same way like when you're hiring a plumber, you could pick somebody of the yellow pages or do a search on Google.
Speaker: um But it's always best to talk to your next door neighbor who had a really good experience and find out what plumber did you use? right um The other ah way to do it is to go to the website of the BC Parenting Coordinators Roster Society.
Speaker: um Many but not all people who are parenting coordinators are members of that list. but what i like about their list is that it it breaks down their members by professional background um and it also gives you a little bio of that person and and there's usually links where you can go and learn more about them but like i said Not everybody who works as a parenting coordinator is going to be on that roster.
Speaker: um So the other alternative is just to do a Google search that says something to the effect of British Columbia parenting coordinator. And then you probably want to narrow it down to say British Columbia parenting coordinator, Victoria, and see who pops up.
Speaker: ah But having said that, ah the interesting thing about the work that I do is i rarely meet parents in person almost all of the work that i do happens by email by telephone and by video conference.
Speaker: And what that means is that if you found a really awesome parenting coordinator who's based in Quenelle and you happen to live in Surrey, you can still hire that parenting coordinator. All they have to have is a decent internet internet connection and you're good to go.
Speaker: so anyways it's basically it's a matter of you know get referrals ask around did you use a parenting coordinator, who did you use? How did you like how it went? Were they responsive to you? Did they um answer your emails in a timely way? How long did it take to resolve problems? Like ask around, um, get recommendations from your lawyers. And if asking around in recommendations, don't pan out.
Speaker: An internet search is basically what you want to do. Right. Great. Okay. I think, you know, having, ah I want to, I want to be clear about something though. Oh, yes. Um,
Speaker: hiringne hiring a parenting coordinator is just as personal of a decision as hiring the person who's going to be your family law lawyer in a legal dispute.
Speaker: um And you're entitled to shop around you don't have to hire the first person you talk to and there's a you know there's a good argument to be made that you shouldn't hire the first person that you talk to you're you're entitled to go talk to these people see how you get along right you're looking for someone who appears to be sympathetic when it's appropriate, empathetic always, somebody who uses a language that you can understand and who you feel that you can connect with.
Speaker: So this is such an important decision. i would encourage anybody who's looking for a parenting coordinator to don't just simply phone, they hire the first person who answers the phone, but like look around and talk to people and make that kind of personal assessment.
Speaker: Right. Yeah, that's so important. did it It is this it's yeah it's the same. um I say that to clients as well. Look, at the end of a consult, I'm i don't you know i'm not saying so sign on the line. I say, okay, we've we've met. we've you know take Take some time. right Come back to me. Let me know how things are going.
Speaker: Go and talk to another professional if you need to um because that relationship is going to be crucial. right Yeah, definitely. And then there's just the hope that parties can agree on who they're going to hire if they're going to hire a parenting coordinator. That's...
Speaker: ah Something that often comes up too.
Speaker: There's ways around that too, right? You know, what I, as a mediator, when we're talking about hiring a counselor to work with the kids, you know, what I'll say is, um you know, parent A, um this time next week, provide a list of five counselors that you are prepared and will agree that they could work with the kids and i say to parent b and you get to pick which of those five counselors you will work with.
Speaker: and So there's there's ways around it. um and And, you know, it should not be an insurmountable problem. You just need to have choice. um And worst comes to worst, you can go to court and the judge will pick somebody to work with you.
Speaker: um Obviously, you want to avoid that because of the cost and delay and all that. But there's creative ways that you could solve the problem for sure he you know, play rock, paper, scissors.
Speaker: Yes, perhaps that should be the way we resolve all disputes. And then, you know, we can all go on holiday.
Speaker: That's right. But no, and and'm saying thanks again, JP. I mean, I know a lot about your services, having worked with you and referred clients to you for for parenting coordination, but I do feel like I've learned some extra things here. So that's that's fantastic.
Speaker: Is there anything else you you kind of think that we haven't covered or that anything else for listeners that they need to know about parenting coordinators before we yeah tell people how they can find you? Well, um you know, I think that, you know, when we were developing parenting coordination for use in British Columbia, like I said, it was a really exciting time.
Speaker: ah because you know there were no rules and we could design a process as creatively as we want. And at the time when we were involved in figuring out how it would work, you know, everybody who was engaged in the project just had this faith that this was, you know, bright, shiny and new, but also a cure-all that it was capable of resolving all kinds of disputes, as well as effectively managing the parents who were engaged in the most intractable levels of conflict.
Speaker: um And, you know, now that we've been engaged with parenting coordination for, geez, doing the math, it would be 17 18 years in British Columbia.
Speaker: um you know i think we have a more balanced practical view. um The reality is, is that for parents who do find themselves picking at each other over, you know, small disputes or even, you know, disputes that seem to be large about parenting, parenting coordination can help. It can be useful.
Speaker: um Big drawback is that it costs and it costs a lot because in Canada, we have never had an approach to publicly funded gender funded Medicare, right?
Speaker: It's just never been something on the the federal or the provincial radar. um So it costs a lot. And then the other thing is sort of, you know, bitter experience shows that it it it is not a cure-all. And there are some people who are engaged in some levels of conflict that parenting coordination just can't improve and resolve.
Speaker: on the fly as they arise But those sort of longer term benefits, which seem to me to be the keys to the kingdom, right? yeah the The pieces about improving dispute resolution capacity, the pieces about becoming more aware of your personal triggers and hot buttons, the pieces about more effective communication um so that your family can can.
Speaker: raise these kids effectively despite your separation you know that's not something that's going to be realized for everybody. And, and you know, yeah so at the end of the day, um it is a a good idea. it is a good process.
Speaker: It provides certain people with um access to decision making and potentially longer term improvements in their co-parenting situation that those people really benefit from.
Speaker: But having said that, it comes at a cost and not every parent is well suited to the process. So there are some circumstances where you know i i will tell people that I like to be able to help you, but I worry that I can't.
Speaker: and And I have no interest in getting people to spend money on things that are not going to help. Right. Yeah, I think and that's that's the case for every you know every legal process or any any resources, right? we it's It's not going to be a one size fits all. It's not going to match everyone, but certainly it's good to know the options you have out there, whether it be parenting coordination, mediation, arbitration, um court, how that looks and and and and how whether or not that can work for your family, right? And for your kids, because again, kids are the paramount consideration.
Speaker: Yeah. That's right. Well, okay. Well, thanks again so much, JP. I appreciate you being here. So do the listeners. And hopefully I'll ah see you around again shortly.
Speaker: My pleasure, Annabelle. Thank you very much.
Speaker: Well, listeners, there you have it. Our first guest episode of That Was So Real. I hope you gained some very valuable insights into how a parenting coordinator can make a real difference in managing co-parenting challenges.
Speaker: If you're struggling with co-parenting or decision making in your family, please be sure to reach out to a parenting coordinator for some personal advice and guidance and speak to your lawyer if you have one about this service because it truly is such a valuable tool and hopefully helps keep you out of a courtroom.
Speaker: If you found today's episode helpful, don't forget to share it with a friend or a colleague who might need it And as always, make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. You can find the show notes from today's episode on my website at agosling.ca.
Speaker: That is agosling.ca.
Speaker: Before you go my favorite final question to you. Are you ready to hit reset? If so, we'll see you next time on That Was So Real.
![[Trailer] That Was So Real - Life After Law](https://media.zencastr.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=320,quality=85/image-files/6771c35e3bed738626c56126/16bbe871-8bab-4ac8-b0e7-474f0a5a38aa.png)