5: Family Reunification - Rebuilding Parent-Child Relationships with Leanne Toews

Transcript

Speaker: In terms of family reunification, it's looking at and it's creating an intervention. So intervention based to help repair and rebuild the relationships between ah child and a disconnected parent or parents.

Speaker: Hey there, I'm Annabelle Gosling, your host and practicing family law lawyer, but most importantly, fellow traveler on this wild and sometimes unpredictable journey we call life.

Speaker: It's a real pleasure to meet you. Welcome back to That Was So Real for another one of our guest episodes. Today's guest is someone whose credentials are almost too long for a single LinkedIn profile and whose work in the mental health and family law space is both wide reaching and deeply impactful.

Speaker: So let me introduce you to Leanne Taves. Leanne is a registered clinical counsellor with the BC Association of Clinical Counsellors. She's a qualified arbitrator and she holds a Masters in Counselling Psychology as well as a Bachelor of Arts in Child and Youth Care.

Speaker: She's collected a stack of diplomas and certificates along the way in the field of mental wellness all while building an incredible career. Leanne has lived and worked in communities across Northern, Central and now Southern BC and her work experience has spanned from group homes for youth, transition homes, working with youth in high schools as a school district elementary counsellor to over a decade with the provincial government in child protection and child and youth mental health direct service and public policy. She's also a trained neutral child interviewer and now runs a practice here in Victoria where she offers specialized clinical services in the family law realm.

Speaker: And these include expert testimony, parenting assessments under Section 211, Hear the Child and Views of the Child reports, and therapeutic family reunification counseling.

Speaker: If it involves kids and complex family dynamics, Leanne's likely done it, and she's probably tailored the process to make it better. Finally, Leanne also founded Coastality, a hybrid counseling and assessment practice that serves clients across BC, both virtually and in person.

Speaker: I'm so excited to have her here today to share all of her insights and experiences. so let's get into it.

Speaker: Hi Leanne, thank you so much for joining me on That Was So Real. I'm really looking forward to our discussions today about family reunification, about what family reunification is, who it works best for, and the services you provide towards the goal of bringing families back together. welcome.

Speaker: Why, thank you. Good morning to you, Annabelle. Nice to be here and thanks for inviting me. Yeah, this is going to be really fun. And I mean, I've already filled our listeners in with a bit of a brief bio about you and all of your many accolades.

Speaker: But why don't you start by telling us what brought you into having this amazing practice, which of course is focused on supporting children and families. Thank you. a Good question. And I wish I had a very inspiring answer for you. But what actually happened is I fell into this area.

Speaker: And I have always been doing counseling work with children, youth and families across my career experience. um But the one part that really created more my interest in or abilities or whatever you may call it, and working with high conflict families, is I have a history in child protection work.

Speaker: which we do have some very intense clients and doing some very intense intervention work and keeping very firm boundaries and drawing those lines with those clients.

Speaker: And from there, that took me into doing some mediation training as it was my intention to go ah into child protection mediation. So I did some training, of course, in mediation and with Wayne Plennart as well, if anybody knows Wayne.

Speaker: And then i ended in doing more, having more referrals coming my way from lawyers saying, can you do counseling work with these families?

Speaker: And of course, I said, sure, sounds, why not? Tell me their story. And anybody that knows me, I like to say I'm a sucker for a good story. And I just get drawn in because I can see the potential of where things can go for the positive with the families and just readapting some of their lines and boundaries and admitting to things and overcoming um mistakes or challenges or whatever it may be. Right.

Speaker: Just to make things generally better. And having worked with children and youth for so long, I felt that I could give more of a voice for the kids as well, while also encouraging them not only to state their voice, but also to learn skills and how to manage this adult-inspired stuff.

Speaker: And that's the stuff that kids just don't have. They're not born with these skills to manage adults. high conflict parents or a difficult parent for whatever reason, that parent may be creating some issues.

Speaker: And that's how I fell into this. Yeah, so it sounds like it was just a really natural progression, right? Natural progression. Yeah. And then people just kept knocking at my door. And again, I like a good story. I said, okay, I can can probably do something with that. Let's talk.

Speaker: Yeah, and balancing all of the pieces between the, like you say, the adult stuff, and then how to communicate that to children and support them, whilst also, quite frankly, supporting the parents do the same thing, right? Exactly. How do we communicate with kids about these, you know, hugely tumultuous times and things and changes going on in their lives? so Yeah, and if I may also add, it's also teaching the adults, like, because you hit the nail on the head there,

Speaker: It's to teach, the remind the adults that these are children and where they are at in their stage of development and how they can and cannot process things just because their brains haven't quite developed to process the things the adults want them to process. So we have we have that gap in there as well. And so how can we create the connections right and understanding?

Speaker: Yeah. Well, it's hugely important work. And of course, I know that your practice spans from doing what we call views of the child reports, section 211 reports, and there's many things we could be discussing, but we have to pick a topic. So of course, we've picked the topic of family reunification. So why don't I just start with broadly asking what is what is it It's so funny because everybody, i shouldn't like I generally say everybody, people have this grand idea about family reunification and thinking that

Speaker: It could just be, oh, we're all gonna get together in a room, hold hands and sing Kumbaya, and we'll all be fine. you know Bring out the magic wand, Leanne. So in terms of family reunification to reset that, it's looking at and it's creating an intervention. So it's intervention-based to help repair and rebuild the relationships between a child and a disconnected parent or parents.

Speaker: So where that relationship has been disrupted, either due to divorce, separation, estrangement, or allegations of abuse or neglect. So it's also a combination of therapeutic counseling. So this is where the skills pieces do come in.

Speaker: And then eventually, ah hopefully leading into supervised interactions between the parent, disconnected parent and the children. um But also, like I said, it does involve some parental education as well, not necessarily always about the ages and stages of development.

Speaker: but about understanding how the ah behaviors of the adults have impacted the children and also understanding the children's memories and brain fog about things depending on what age they were and also their perceptions of what happened.

Speaker: So that also goes back parent education and then a gradual reintroduction of the contact with a disconnected parent and also we always have to keep the main goal is ensuring that the children have emotional safety so that I'm creating healthy communication and to reestablish that trusting parent-child relationship um that prioritizes the child's best interest. Because even though the child may like may say it's their best interest to not see that parent ever, ever again, aren't you cute at age nine?

Speaker: We know what you don't know, and we're going to validate that, but yet challenge and support to move that along back to a reconnection. Right. that's it in a nutshell.

Speaker: In a nutshell. I mean, and it's very nuanced and very, I mean, and it's also so fact specific and dependent on who the family is and who these kids are and obviously the history.

Speaker: And it is very intertwined with, unfortunately, us family lawyers, right? Because ah we ah bring you these guys who have gone through something and maybe there hasn't been a lot of contact with one parent and a child and we're looking for a creative solution.

Speaker: Yes, exactly. and And I enjoy chatting with you lawyers.

Speaker: We all have a sense of humor. And it's it's also looking at what are the issues like i I had previously mentioned, but some of the issues could be addiction issues, it could be unmanaged mental health issues.

Speaker: um you know i think the real big catchphrase where everybody's accusing everybody is narcissism right you know there's usually a healthy sprinkle of that attached to things um not just on one side and ah and then along with all the nuances of conflict yeah so we just put that in a pot and stir it all together.

Speaker: Mix it all up. i do hear um I do hear narcissism quite often. The other word I often hear is alienation. So as a concept, we are talking about this often, but maybe you can define it as you see it.

Speaker: Right, fair. You're so right, it's always tossed around. um So it's the looking at when you have two parents, so we have the aligned parent, so to speak, that's about the catchphrase is the aligned parent um who will, with the child, who will either deliberately or unconsciously influence a child to reject the other parent.

Speaker: So and that's parent we would consider like a catchphrase for them, the rejected parent, the targeted parent, the disconnected parent. And that the other aligned parent is doing this without a legitimate justification.

Speaker: So essentially it's I'm mad at you, I hate you, I'm going to take away your children from you, and um in essence. And have them not have a relationship with you. I'm just going to do this on my own and see you later. Just go away.

Speaker: And it's really, really tricky. Yeah. And in there, you know, some of the characteristics I think most of us are quite familiar with and in terms of the alienation itself is manipulation, bad mouthing, emotional pressure,

Speaker: And then the kids we may see unjustified fear, anger, hatred, absolute vitriol, which is the best, and towards the target parent, right, towards their disconnected parent. And typically there's no history of abuse or neglect, you know by the rejected parent.

Speaker: But having said that, maybe there was a moment where there is a, um, call it like a conflict between the two parents and maybe a child was physically moved by the other parent out of the situation you should not be involved or go to the room and the child may only focus on that as being abuse right very complicated starting from the very basic putting the kids in the middle behavior to know incidences where there could have been some physicality to that you got it yeah

Speaker: Right. And so i i mean, I often get asked, you know, or it often gets stated to me, you know, these are alienating behaviors. I'm being alienated. But that's obviously a huge spectrum in the bar and in the legal world is pretty high for proving that.

Speaker: So really, we're not here to do that. Right. We're here to support the family on whatever level of that spectrum. Right. And I see that's what your work does. It kind of finds the behaviors. We don't necessarily have to name them as alienation, but we can push forward. is I mean, if I'm mischaracterizing it, let me know.

Speaker: Well, that's the whole thing is just looking at the behaviors and actions of everybody. And one of the pieces I learned long ago, my clinical training is all behavior has meaning.

Speaker: So what's the meaning behind everybody's behaviors? And so when we look at in terms of educators like um Barbara Jo, Dr. Barbara Jo Fidler, you know, um Bala, Saini are doing all of this work on helping to define what mild or moderate or severe type of strained child-parent relationships and trying to define what all the behaviors are in those categories just to help us wrap our heads around it.

Speaker: Or when we start to look at um stepping away from the term alienation and looking at more as a resist refuse contact and looking at all the different categories that ah influences the child into having some, ah you know, refusing and resist parent contact issues.

Speaker: And so they um there's a group of people, psychologists, that are really working to help us wrap our heads around it and have something more logical-minded to follow along in terms of definitions. And I wish it spit out. And if you can click here, here, here, do these interventions, that would be lovely. So that's my request if they happen to be listening.

Speaker: Oh, perfect. Well, hopefully hopefully we'll get there. I mean, processes for everything, if we can find them, are the most helpful. And that's ah sort of what you've done here, right, with your process towards reunification. You do have a system set up to work with families. And you've also talked to me before about family systems. So who's included?

Speaker: so who so who does get included in this process? Yeah. Everybody.

Speaker: Often, and this is where it comes up without having a consult, when say, per se, lawyers are bringing an application forth. And when we look at the problem, it can be simplified as well. It's ah obviously a parent-child situation.

Speaker: problem Therefore, there's going to be counseling between the two. But actually, when you look at a family system, there's the mother, course, we have the father, have they repartnered or remarried, and there can be that influence in there as well.

Speaker: Is there a grandparent that also has some influence or the child maybe the child spends a lot of time with that grandparent as a caregiver? We also would look at, of course, the children.

Speaker: And the fun part about that little family system, if there's multiple children, are they also creating their own little network where they may be doing some ganging, in essence, for lack of a better word, that we're not going to do this and we're going to refuse. And sure, we'll go see Leanne, but we're not going to participate or say anything.

Speaker: So then there is that. So when we look at the systems, um but also looking is there any helpful um aunt or uncle or older much older cousin that maybe still has a good relationship with those disconnected kids that maybe that could be our step to help reconnect because it's not just the one parent that's disconnected it's also the extended family right so we're looking to see within that so we have

Speaker: All of those people that can all have an influence on the kid positive, negatives, or whatnot, or humorous. So that's our family systems, and that's where I work within as well.

Speaker: So everybody gets involved, hopefully, in the process. That's the kind of as much as they need to be. But there's obviously um couple of people who have to at least get you engaged.

Speaker: So how do we how do ah couples or you know families or whomever with children involved come to you and ask, hey, I want to do this family reunification?

Speaker: I always say, that's great. Let's chat. And paul you let's see pause bless your hearts is looking at also with the extended family and the family system.

Speaker: I'm just going to say this. We also have to manage costs. Yeah. So it's not as if we can get the entire family system together because I haven't found one yet, but money doesn't grow on trees apparently.

Speaker: And so if we can, um you know, narrow down the target people as to initially being involved and can also go in stages.

Speaker: So back to your question is when I'm approached I've divided it into an essence of three stages of um type of reunification, overarching reunification.

Speaker: And just like when you take your ah car to a mechanic or you sit down in your hairstylist chair you always have a consult And that's where I start by doing my assessment, where I meet with the parties individually. So mom, dad, and X amount of children, because I'm doing a very targeted, ah specific questions about children.

Speaker: thoughts, feelings, opinions, where they thought things went sideways and your opinions, what would make it better? What would make it worse? um Besides when the children say, oh, just have them go away. Not a good enough answer.

Speaker: um I ask all these questions. So it's very different than say a views report. It's very different than a he or the child report because I'm targeting on what went wrong, what went sideways. And I'm also looking at their level of interest, so to speak, you know, in resolving this.

Speaker: And that's where we'll have most of the adults will say, typically, it'd be nice to have that other parent involved, or the other projected parent, no, I want to see my children, I'm motivated.

Speaker: Generally, the other parent has a level of motivation, kids motivations. Yeah, we'll see how that one that one sits, right? Because they just don't want to do anything difficult, but they'll tolerate me.

Speaker: um Once I have those interviews completed, and that's where I set a list of recommendations, because often there's pieces in there that will need to be resolved before we can even get into step three of actual reunification work.

Speaker: And so the step two, in essence, is doing skill building. And that's where we have previously chatted about having parents understand age and stage of development of their children, where where they're at.

Speaker: It can also be a level of coaching to, say, the parent that has the parenting time when the kids say something negative about the parent, how to respond to that. For the rejected parent as well, it can be understanding this is, yes, this is what your children are saying.

Speaker: i don't care if it's true or not. That's not my job to investigate it. It's what we have in front of us and that's what we have to work with. And so it's having the parent understanding what interventions are going on for their children while they are still disconnected.

Speaker: And then as we get towards looking if we can do phase three of the actual reunification, it's preparing everybody in a step-by-step fashion so it can be ah reducing anxiety in the children.

Speaker: So it's predictable. We know exactly what's going to happen. We have a bit of planning for in case things go sideways. I'm cute if things go sideways.

Speaker: um For when things go sideways, say if we have some really angry children. Yeah. And then also more work with the one parent who has the children if they're protesting um so significantly that they're kicking and screaming.

Speaker: that they're not going to come with me and that parent has to bring those children, while it's also having the disconnected parent have a bit of empathy for that parent. It's not just as simple because disconnected parents will say, that parent's responsible for this and they need to bring the children and they'll do it. Like, yeah, they will. But do you know what's going on in that home?

Speaker: And then we have another layer of work between the parent and the children to do Because yes, I know you're angry, say at mommy, because mommy has to bring you to see daddy.

Speaker: And we have to then manage that piece as well, if that surfaces. So it's not as easy you know, throwing in a room. But there are times and there are programs that do get everybody in a room and hash it out. And it's really intense.

Speaker: And there can be some good things that come out of that. while supporting the children so that they also feel validated and not feeling unvalidated in their thoughts and feelings or feeling manipulated because then that inspires a whole lot of other things.

Speaker: Right? So there's, um I don't do that one, just pull everybody together. I like to make it more planned and predictable so we can manage everybody's anxieties and do it more of a scaffold approach to things.

Speaker: yeah, it's a stage process, but with the exceptions that these are families, these are complex family systems and there needs to be a level of engagement. So, you know, at stage one, which is the assessment stage, you're doing interviews, um not just listening to how people explain themselves and how people explain their families, but are they, you know, are they coming? Are they showing up?

Speaker: You know, are they engaged in the process? Because, I'm sure that's a telltale sign of how well the skill development and then the actual reunification will go. yeah But I know from working with you that the assessment piece and the recommendations that come out of that, which you can also explain a little bit about the reports that you write with those recommendations,

Speaker: If you'd like to, but I, I found that helpful because it's something then that you can put in front of parties who have engaged in a process who then confronted by it or not can see how it's panned out and you can see what next steps to take.

Speaker: And then there's another choice. Yeah. Are you going to take them? Right. Yeah. It's bit like choose your own adventure. Yeah. Yeah. that yeah And that report's really helpful. And I was going to say to you too, the report, we often or have had to get a court order to have urine your involvement kind of solidified. And then that report can also be used in proceedings. So have you had much experience with having to go in and speak to these or how have they been going?

Speaker: Oh, yes.

Speaker: Yes and yes. Yes and yes. And so to expand on that, ah when, to dial back a a couple of steps, like when the report comes out, I do appreciate it can be quite shocking to the individuals, the parents to read, because here it is in black and white.

Speaker: and And don't sugarcoat, because I don't believe I've been paid to sugarcoat. I'm here to define the issues and a strategy to go forward to help move everything along.

Speaker: And some people Do you need time to sit back and process? And also to look inward and maybe have some reflection that, oh, wow, like the behaviors I was doing, even though I was just reacting emotionally, is actually coercive behavior. It's abuse.

Speaker: And that can be really tough to take. And i it may be like a screw you, Leigh Ann. I'm not going to do that because you got it wrong. um And I'm not going to do anything about it, or it can be motivating and saying, yes, I want to.

Speaker: Holy crap, this is what I've been doing to my kids. I want to change. So it can create that. And then, you know, if parties consent... I always like to have an order in place, especially if it's a consent order, because ah typically what happens, people can go forward and and they all agree, yeah, this is really good, enjoying this until it's not, until we get into the hard work.

Speaker: And that's where people would say, I no longer want to do this because of X, Y, and Z reasons. Or the child says they don't want to do it and I'm putting stress on them.

Speaker: Yes, this is stressful. That just means we have to support the child more. So we have to pause and look at that. So having court orders in place, absolutely. That keeps everybody ready and able to participate.

Speaker: In the process. It keeps everybody engaged. Yes. Yes. And then, yes, there have been times where I have been called to speak in court as well to the assessment and to the plan in place.

Speaker: that or the plan that I propose, I should say. And ah yeah know lawyers and their clients have a lot of questions around what it would look like. And then most certainly, I've been called into FMCs as well, just for updates where things are at.

Speaker: And the most part I have found judges are just essentially seeking to understand and to make sure that things are moving forward. But things and family reunification don't move forward in terms of a timeline that, say, works for a court order. Like in the next three to four months, this will happen.

Speaker: No, it doesn't happen that way. I can keep a focus, but it may not exactly happen that way. And so, yes, I'm often called to speak to things or to write written updates as well.

Speaker: Right. And I bet you get the questions like, oh, we have school starting in September. Will we be like everybody be reunified? Is that everybody's happy families for September so we can make a parenting schedule for the school year or something like that? It just doesn't work like that.

Speaker: Oh, let me find my magical wand and then maybe it can all work out that way, right? I'm looking for it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. so So that's the assessment piece. So everyone gets interviewed and is there ever any concerns about, oh i but I don't want to tell you that because you're going to go tell my ex or, you know, how does that work confidentiality wise?

Speaker: Right. And that's the part going into this is everybody has that understanding and they have the knowledge that I'm going to be writing a report. Right. and the information that they tell me, if they, if they do say to me, look, I want to tell you this, but I need it to be confidential or I myself will filter it out because I include what is necessary for the report.

Speaker: And that way I don't need to include every soul bearing detail they may share. As an example, in some of my reports, I have done assessment in terms of the um adverse childhood experiences and what has gone on in people's childhood that has had an impact on them and their parenting today.

Speaker: And so there's things in there, especially if you're a spouse, a new spouse on the scene, that could be put into report and then be weaponized. As you know, you also had mentioned where these reports can be used in courts for future litigation as well, because I know the report is can be used in courts.

Speaker: So I'm just very sensitive because I also want people to be able to share with me their vulnerabilities on things because it is going to help me plan for future recommendations. And it's going to be something that people can reflect back on, but also hopefully project forward because the main thing we're taking away from the assessment are the ah goals for um the skills development piece.

Speaker: So I know that's the second pivotal piece that you do. Is it usually the quote alienated parent or is it the kids that we're doing skills based skills development with or how does that look?

Speaker: It's everybody. Everybody again. I do make recommendations for everybody because and and i have to i appreciate the amount of conflict that the parents have gone through before they've landed on my doorstep.

Speaker: So not only through the relationship falling apart conflict and then the separation conflict and then whatever conflict's been going on to get the likes of me involved or ordered.

Speaker: And so ah You can appreciate, I'm sure, how some files and conflict just has a life of their own. It's almost like it has heartbeat. It its own family member. Yeah, it's its own being.

Speaker: So often it's stopping that conflict and saying, okay, you made it this far. We can take a break. We're going to relax because now we know what's going to be going forward. And I had alluded this to being a choose-your-own-adventure, so to speak,

Speaker: Whereas I do like to say in the reports that if here's my recommendations, but if so and so doesn't choose to participate, then this is what recommendations should um occur for the children.

Speaker: So then that the children aren't left hanging and wondering, are we going to be doing work with mom or dad? And, you know, we met with Leanne, then what? And so often children do need their own level of individual services.

Speaker: through two different streams, if we do reunification or if we don't do reunification, because there's things that they do need to like package up and tighten a bow on it maybe, or put some more scotch tape on it.

Speaker: I hadn't thought about that. If you make recommendations, which would be, I would imagine, more counseling, maybe family counseling, um perhaps some courses. We can get into some of the recommendations you would make. But if someone isn't willing to engage further because perhaps they feel confronted at the time by what was in the report and such, like the the family has been involved. So, yeah, I would leave the kids hanging if there weren't options for them who absent one parent coming back and doing the actual skills development piece right it's helping the children to have a bit more of an understanding and to manage their own emotions around why which parent isn't showing up yeah yeah and skills to help them manage that and often kids will say well if they wanted to show up they would

Speaker: Oh, bless your hearts. But there's so much that can go on about that when we talk about parental motivation and what can interfere. Right. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. The initial feeling would be if they really wanted to be here with me, they would.

Speaker: Which yeah is heartbreaking. Right. But it's there's so much more nuance. But that takes it back to, you know, age appropriate dialogue about these sorts of things. Right. Yeah. yeah Exactly.

Speaker: Exactly. Except have to manage their rejection. Right. yeah managing the rejection and oh gosh but in in in the best kind of world where people decide to do the skills development what kind of recommendations are you making so what do those skill developments look like ah who um you you did drop the term or the word around a ah parenting course it could be something like that because there are several that can um help create, say, more empathy and attachment to, you know, help support a parent to increase their attachment to their children, especially the teenagers.

Speaker: um But we have to remember age and stage of development to teenagers is to become more independent. So how do parents create an attachment? or maintain an attachment during that stage. And so it could be something like that. It could also be managing really intense be emotions in children.

Speaker: ah So there's course for that. um Surprisingly, some parents have not done parenting after separation. Had we done that, maybe some of our issues would have been taken care of.

Speaker: So the Parenting After Separation course is the online course that is on the provincial court websites and recommended for most parents or actually required for parents when they're going through a provincial court process.

Speaker: Correct. In certain registries, which we won't get into, but anyway. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, it's an online course, but it's quick and it's, let's get started on how did we do this after separation, how we communicate with kids, how we keep them out of the middle.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Please start there. If anyone's listening. I will put a link in the show notes for that. Fantastic. The other side of courses could be if there's been a layer of family violence.

Speaker: And so often we have to start to unpack that. if it's processing, if it's kids if they've witnessed, if it's the other parent that has had the violence towards them, and of course the person has acted out in violence. and so we have to manage that stuff before we can even consider doing a reunification.

Speaker: ah Some of the recommendations can also be if there's, say, a parent that has mental health issues. Those definitely need to be resolved or at least to be put in process and to be supported.

Speaker: um by a clinician and the parent learning skills and whatnot and understanding and how to manage their emotional reactions, which are more inspired, say, by a bipolar disorder um or a depression.

Speaker: Then let's also talk addictions. There can be addictions that are also inspired have inspired past ill behavior. And so not only is it addressing the addiction portion, but it's also what has inspired the addictions.

Speaker: So it's bit of the chicken before the egg before the chicken or the horse before the car, which came first, right? Whichever, yeah. So it's addressing those pieces as well. And then say in the children, it can be if if, you know, having to address and understand if there has been ill behavior, if it's been violence inspired or addiction inspired and helping them understand not only the whys of that happens, but when this happens, what stirs up in them,

Speaker: how they can manage their own emotions about that, especially if it comes towards reinvification. That's where we'll get the protest is I don't want to see that parent because x y and Z happened.

Speaker: So then I have to present to the children in a logical manner that these are the things your parent is doing to address those concerns and to become a better parent and a better person. not reacting in that manner so we have to show the kids that the adults are doing the work as well while they're also learning their their skills because kids will say i will know when my parent is different i say that's great how would you know what would you notice what would you see what could you tell and they can never give me an answer never

Speaker: No. and But they always say that. So that's why I have to logically present to them this is what they're doing to become a better person and to not make the same mistakes. So it can be assortment of counseling, but also can, like I alluded before, it can be the parent coaching.

Speaker: When kids say something negative about the other parent, how to reframe that while you still validate their concerns, but yet give a corrective answer. And still working with a disconnected parent and managing their frustrations.

Speaker: So I do have to do a level of managing frustrations and expectations. Because just because you're in this process. Mm hmm. doesn't mean it will happen. That was two questions I was kind of thinking of as you were talking there were, you know, managing expectations of everyone in in the process, kids and parents, but probably the hardest I'm i'm guessing would be the parent who is um the one trying to, you know, build a relationship back up and how quickly that can be done. I imagine you get, well, I did, I i did the course. I did the the the things I'd went to some therapy.

Speaker: are we ready? Like, can we move on to the next stage? You know, that must be really challenging, managing those kind of expectations. That is, and let's touch on that one a little bit. Okay.

Speaker: Well, the parent is is waiting and waiting and I have to, you know, everybody has to remember they haven't been disconnected from the period that say the order in their involved with me from assessment onwards, they've been disconnected prior to that.

Speaker: And so sometimes it could be two, three years or more before they even get to me. And so they've been waiting and wanting. And then once they get to the likes of me or our program, they feel maybe a level of hope and let's go. And it's going to happen super fast because in their minds, everybody should just be jumping for glee and joy and hugs and yeah being connected again. It's not the way it goes.

Speaker: So while it's also managing ah that parent and sharing, this is what the kids are doing. This is what they're learning. This is how they're being supported in the home. because they're always suspicious they're not being supported in the other parent's home.

Speaker: And so it's managing all of that. And this is also where lawyers can come in handy and helpful as well to help their client manage their expectations. Also, when parents, um not all, but I can't say quite a few, ah when in when they're getting frustrated, say, well, I can just do this.

Speaker: I'm just going to make myself visible to the kids. I know they go to school while I'm going to be around in the park. Or I know that maybe they always go to their activities at this rec center or you know I'm going to show up randomly. you know So I run into them on the streets and create my own connection because in their mind, they're thinking it's going to be hugs and love and and whatnot. And if they do that, that can create a worse outcome for us. And it may be something where we'll never be able to come back from because it was unpredicted.

Speaker: Kids don't know how to respond to that. It's a shock. It doesn't go well. So please don't do that. If you're thinking of doing that and you're listening to this.

Speaker: Lots of good tips. I say, I think people are getting some tips that you would be giving out um in assessments. So i recognize that we're, we're getting some of the skill building right here. Yeah. It's my opportunity.

Speaker: But i the example I always think of, which has stuck with me when we've spoken about this before, was like sometimes it even comes down to what not to write in a birthday card or a Christmas card that or in a text message that could inspire some guilt for the child.

Speaker: Yes. Which I was astounded at how... you know, that's such a, ah a small thing I would, I would have thought, but and when we've talked about it I thought that could really make an impact on a kid a few words.

Speaker: Yes. Yeah. And that's part of the process that I do help stick handle is that, or if it's also, um, gifting, gifting Christmas or birthdays and, uh, or sometimes kids really like gift cards, um,

Speaker: um But don't know, it's like it's so different for every birthday and every Christmas because kids change, their thoughts change. What worked last year doesn't mean will work this year.

Speaker: Sometimes kids destroy the cards. Sometimes they um enjoy the GC. Other times they're happy to have a GC, but they're so conflicted about it because of the source it came from. And if they accept the GC, what is this indirectly saying to that parent?

Speaker: Right. te you know Kids think about this stuff, especially teenagers. A lot. Yeah. Yeah. And um so when we look at you know Christmas presents and kids opening presents from the rejected parent.

Speaker: You know, again, the rejected parents hoping for the love and surprises and adoration. And oh my gosh, my dad sent me this and how fantastic and smiling photos. No, it's always conflicted. They're happy to have it. But it's like, oh, it's from my mom or from my dad. I'm like, oh, I don't know about this. So they're always conflicted.

Speaker: Yeah. And this is where in the cards I really do have to help stick handle, as I mentioned, is there's no hearts, no emojis, no... No, I love you, blah blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah. If we are going to write something to the children, we're going to do it in the intervention stage, say stage three, about and what I've learned or apologies or parental updates so the kids can understand that life still goes on for that parent and they're not still the same parent they were, say, four or five years ago.

Speaker: So stick handling all that stuff is...

Speaker: yeah that is lot of work like a lot of work and sounds like there's other professionals that you likely get um involved or by nature of it you know you were talking about addictions or yeah ah mental health challenges you're obviously having to work with other professionals in the skills development and well throughout the whole process I guess in all the stages yes and I'm really quite fortunate within my team I do have um very well high tenured and highly skilled clinicians that I can call upon.

Speaker: And i have specifically handpicked these people, knowing ah the level of work and intervention and personality styles and whatnot that I would need, or they would need to um to be supported and clients be supported.

Speaker: Well, let's talk about your team. Yeah, so there's you. Obviously, you're doing the initial meetings with the parents and and the kids, and you have these other professionals involved. So yeah, who are some of these people?

Speaker: um Under my umbrella, I do have a private practice. ah The name of the practice is Coastality. And I do have a variety of clinicians attached to that.

Speaker: So this is where, say, I have someone that's more addictions focused. I have a clinician that is more child focused. um I also have an executive coach.

Speaker: And the fun part about using an executive coach, let's say as an example for letter writing um or helping create clarity, an executive coach is fantastic in using their skills to really have the client um what define what's important, what's not important, instead of all of it being important.

Speaker: you know, like doing but more of a logical prioritizing and whatnot. um And having a clinician that has a lot of parenting interventions and parenting work, plus they're all highly skilled to be doing whichever type of mental wellness counseling is needed, generally speaking. So I'm really happy with that team.

Speaker: Yeah. or grief and loss is another piece as well. So that can also interfere. That's a very holistic group of people to have at your fingertips. And i think the follow up question, which I know we we we should talk about kind of how much this, this process can, can cost and budgeting, but just off the back of this talk we're having now about the team, is it Are these additional services? Are they included in what you would call your reunification, family reunification kind of package?

Speaker: Right, right. And i always appreciate people's financial planning. So this is why I structured it out into three phases. So that's also a bit more palatable as well. and So obviously we have our assessment in the in the second phase of services. This is where I would lay out per person, um you know, how many sessions it would take to work with whichever clinician.

Speaker: And then as well in amongst that, we do have a clinician meeting as well with those ones that are involved in the family um to make sure that we're understanding the bigger picture, what interventions are going on, and also connecting the dots on things as well. When we have kids saying this and the parents saying that, and then some really good planning can go on as well in our clinician meetings.

Speaker: So that would be defined so that everybody can understand the cost on that. And then when it comes to the phase three, of course, everything is defined out as well as around sessions for children.

Speaker: We have mini connection sessions. We have support sessions after with the children. um Mainly I'm still handling these pieces. And then also ah for longer parent child contact time as well. So it's all ah divided out so that everybody can clearly see the price because Money does, you know, can help or can hinder things.

Speaker: And of course, I do work on a retainer basis. I'll say that because then everybody's bought into this process. Right. There's none of this. I don't like the direction Leanne's doing. Therefore, I'm not signing up and going. Right. I'm not paying for the next one. No, and and no, no, no, no.

Speaker: This is a program. Yeah, we've already paid upfront. We've discussed how that's going to look. And oftentimes if it's, ah you know, if there's a court order or consent order, we have that specified in in that document as well.

Speaker: Division of costs is so important to have that defined. Yeah. And the buy-in, the emotional buy-in is one thing. The financial buy-in can sometimes help with the emotional buy-in when people are feeling uninspired at times, if they're feeling confronted by something.

Speaker: Right. Yeah. and Uninspired. Yeah. So yeah, third state of third stage of the process is the actual reunification piece. And I guess that's not to suggest that there's been no, obviously there's been no parent-child contact in the skill building and skill development. It probably has been in some circumstances, maybe not in all, but the reunification piece is the piece that I suppose everyone is looking forward to. Yeah. The reunification piece is all contact. Like there's,

Speaker: Very little conflict contact in the skill building side of things. um Because, yeah know, an ill timed birthday card, if we don't have that skill place in place will thwart the process.

Speaker: um Also, in um unless they've already had that in place, let's say because some families do have that in place while they come through to me and then I just support that to make sure that it is appropriate and that it continues.

Speaker: Right. So a big question I have for you is what does successful reunification look like? I like to consider success as a continuum.

Speaker: And ah everybody views success as everybody, kids and parent are reconnected, going back and forth, you know, fluid shared parenting time rainbows and butterflies.

Speaker: ah That's what everybody defines as success. And if that's what they keep as their definition of a successful reunification, people are going to be disappointed.

Speaker: And then they say reunification failed. But that's not the case. I like to keep success as fluid as possible um because there's multiple pieces that go into it.

Speaker: It's looking at again, I always go back to the children's age and stage and their experience and, experience in the family with their parent and whatnot.

Speaker: But remember, they age. And as they age, their brains mature and their social development also matures. And so maybe we could couldn't get to the ultimate stars and unicorns and butterflies when they're six or seven because of that.

Speaker: But maybe we planted enough of the seeds in the soil so it will be helpful helpful by the time they're age 14, 15, 16.

Speaker: And we can, you know, do some more work at that point. We may get to a layer ah layer of letters going between a parent and their child. That's success.

Speaker: We may have children accepting the gift card. That's success. Yeah. Yeah. Say we may have some continued rejection from a child to their parent and the parent has written a letter you know stating you can always reach out to me, I you know i understand you know why you would reject me, that type of thing.

Speaker: Here's my contact information. um What if in the event down the line when they're a teenager and they're having a fight with mom and dad and it's going to be, well, I'm going off to mom's, I'm going to dad's.

Speaker: We want that parent to be findable and reachable. That is success as well. as long as the child has that. So um success can be a variety of things.

Speaker: It's not just rainbows, butterflies. Right. It's, it's broad. Sometimes, it like you say, it might be as simple as just there now being some, some form of contact, some sort of communication, or even just ah line a line, direct line of it. If, if the child and the parent are comfortable are in that at that stage,

Speaker: Yeah, I suppose the only other question on the flip side of that is there are there tells of someone that shouldn't be in the process. i know That's a difficult one. But if someone came to you, you're going to be honest and tell them like this process isn't for you. And who are those people who might not want to come and join?

Speaker: Very fair. Often people like parents that don't take responsibility for their actions and continually blame the other parent for that and see the children as more as objects or possessions as opposed to a relationship, wanting a relationship with their children.

Speaker: That's very easy to quickly tell. um When there has been um significant abuse, children... will protest and will say, no, I don't want to see them because x y and Z happened to me.

Speaker: Yeah, absolutely true. Again, this would go back to, is that parent, have they acknowledged that abuse, right? Have they done work around their behaviors and actions, right?

Speaker: And there's been times where we have some teenagers and teenagers choose with their feet. Mm-hmm. And if they are so adamant they're not doing it and you can't make me and here's where to go and how to get there and all those, um we have to then keep in mind of what are we then reinforcing, inadvertently reinforcing?

Speaker: Are we having, by a supposed intervention, or would an intervention have this teen dig deeper and plant their feet? Yeah. into absolute refusal to ever ever have contact with the parent so that's then doing more harm it's filtering that out ah in addition to is there a potential and sometimes there just isn't and that might be their recommendation sorry at that point would be just to make sure the child can find you and how can we keep you findable

Speaker: For if there is a time ever that they do want to reach out, say, in their 20s or when they're 30, or what if they FOI a file and find information there that challenges them at that point, because developmentally, they can be challenged at that point. Right. You know, they're probably parenting themselves at that point. you can see things differently.

Speaker: Like a freedom of of information request for like a social worker's file or something. Yeah. Is that kind of what you mean? Yeah. Yeah. And then they get to see that and they all of a sudden see a different perspective and are ready to because they're older address that.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. yeah So it's not just a parent that may not be suitable for the process. There may some kids in there that aren't ready or ah that must be really difficult managing ah managing that if there are two parents that are ready to engage, but you're having to say, hey, look, I don't know if this is the right time for this child, right?

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. So you don't want to and invalidate them and their emotions and their experiences. And you can only challenge so far. especially with teenagers before they're really choosing with their feet and thinking yeah have to reflect on what is going to be happening in the home with that parent who's really trying to encourage them to have that relationship if that's the case and and, you know, trying to manage that. So then maybe there's some things with that parent that we can help, I can help manage like like receiving Christmas cards and presents and whatnot and acknowledging milestones, you know, getting your driver's license, finishing high school, that type of stuff.

Speaker: Right. So if all goes well and we have engaged parties, we've done the stages, things are kind of moving along, there's some parenting time or some contact happening, and it's time for you to sort of tap out, I imagine there has to be some sort of a weaning off or a gradual disengagement in the process.

Speaker: Exactly. So I'm not moving in.

Speaker: So why not? And I don't want to create a dependency either. That's the whole point about doing any type of clinical intervention is to, you know, help people manage on their own and not become dependent on us.

Speaker: So there would be a very logical, thought out, planned, plotted process that would lessen my time, say, in being present at the parent-child contact time, slowly moving me out, increasing the other um disconnected parents, increasing their time.

Speaker: And maybe I randomly show up at at another time at their home or if it's at the park or whatnot. And just or then maybe sometimes it's the kids will just come in to do check ins with me.

Speaker: Tell me what's going well, what's not working, what we can do to make it better. And just reducing those pieces, but ultimately still holding you know, the opportunity, like, look at if things start to go sideways again, because again, agency age development of the children, as you connect dots on things, there may be a time that you would have to come back again to reinvent things or re-strategize or learn skills or challenge understandings and whatnot. But it is a very gradual weaning process as well.

Speaker: But again, i like to have things logically printed out And so everybody knows what to expect. Right. For both of them and and you, I imagine, because as you say, you're not moving in.

Speaker: So eventually the the goal is self-sustainability. you know, whatever the word is to keep moving this along and take the skills and and fly free. Yeah, we want them to become a normal family.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah. and And in the many varieties that that can take, right? Yeah. Different family family systems back to the beginning. yeah We have a reinvented family system. Yeah.

Speaker: All right. We've talked a bit about budget. We've talked about the stages. So I suppose before we leave here today, are there any resources? We've talked about the parenting after separation course too, but resources that jump out to other than obviously your website, which I will link in the show notes for today.

Speaker: um so people can reach out to you, but any other resources you'd say people should access and look at? Right. On my website, I do under the re family reunification, you can see all of the the process that is to find out if anybody needs to connect with me, you can absolutely do that.

Speaker: In terms of other resources that are out there, um there's so much more that's coming out these days. So it's not like the ah days of before where here's a reading list, because it's kind constantly evolving.

Speaker: In terms of I know parents have found some support groups um that are accessible on Facebook to be helpful. There is that, but as well ah with a note of caution in that because some parents have had varying different experiences across the world.

Speaker: So what happens in one place is not going to be successful for this place. And, um, and you know interventions that have worked, not worked, or even how parents would negate any type of clinical intervention as well. So there there are those that you can take with the grain of salt, and some are really helpful, especially for grandparents that have been disconnected. There are those Facebook chat groups as well.

Speaker: it's There's just a plethora out there in terms for lawyers. There's all sorts of coursework out there as well that can be you know entered into as well that have been developed by psychologists and lawyers that are actively engaged in the parent-child refusal contact issue world, so to speak.

Speaker: So that's another place and and that's through the Association of Family and Conciliation Courts through the states. All right, that's a mouthful. I know.

Speaker: But that's a good place to go and look. Yes. And, in um you know, to promote it slightly, but not really because I don't get any kickbacks. But that is um the place with your memberships. You can access a plethora of journal articles. There's trainings.

Speaker: online that you can do and webinars you can join and as well and and listen to. Very cool. Okay. Well, i will I will also link that up in the show notes so that people can go and browse through um and check those things out. And of course, again, ah people can always come and speak to you as well.

Speaker: Absolutely. Please chat to me before you go and sign up for a court order. always encourage that. That's always the best. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for going through all that. Hopefully we'll, again, I know there's many other services you provide, so maybe we'll have you back to talk about reports and things, but this just feels like the service that I like the most, maybe i have a bias towards it because it really is about promoting long-term progress for the whole family.

Speaker: And i I really appreciate the work that you do in that regard. It's impressive. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that because it's not easy. No. ah All right. Well, thanks again, Leanne. I really appreciate it. i Hopefully we'll have you back again soon and enjoy enjoy the work and we'll see you again.

Speaker: but Anytime. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Speaker: Thanks for joining us again today, listeners. Reunification counseling is one of those areas of family law that is layered, emotional, and incredibly important. And I hope this conversation with Leanne gave you a clearer picture of what's possible when we approach these situations with compassion, structure, and expertise.

Speaker: If this episode resonated with you, or if you know someone who might benefit from hearing it, please share it, subscribe today so you'll never miss an episode going forward. And let's keep building a life that aligns with your true goals and values.

Speaker: Because as I always say, our past don't define us. Hit that subscribe button now or visit my website at agosling.ca and follow me on social media for updates, resources and more real conversations just like this one.

Speaker: Until next time.