Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back to the A-Tech Philosophy Podcast. I'm Dr. Sam Bennett and I'm delighted to share a conversation with Israeli philosopher Yochai Atarya. We discussed the 1982 classic film Blade Runner directed by Ridley Scott and starring Harrison Ford. Yochai has recently published a Heideggerian reading of the film and the conversation begins with Yochai just giving a kind of introduction to the film for those who haven't seen it or haven't seen it in a while.
Speaker: Like before this program, I just saw it once again with my eldest son. He's 17 he couldn't understand anything. And I think I had probably the same experience in the same age. It's not like a movie that you see as a young. It's it's not like... ah ah Fight Club, like or whatever. It's it's like... they there are There are those deep movies which are all also... you you You are being held by them immediately, but it's not this kind of movie.
Speaker: so So I saw it like... but when when in my youth and then probably once again around 15 years ago. But like i decided to like to see it once again seriously. like i just no I'm just reading all the classics. So Don Quixote and and Thomas Mann and and ah like a series of books. And I decided to like to take this movie seriously.
Speaker: And I watch it and i and then I become obsessed with this with with the movie. I saw it, I think, probably like tens of times. And i'm I'm not the only one. ah The story is actually quite simple.
Speaker: I don't think that the the story is the real issue here. ah But it's like there is this Blade Runner, it's like an officer, police, who has this license to kill a ah Nexus 6, like ah to kill... ah ah well but but Roy Batty, right?
Speaker: Roy? Yeah, no, no, no. They have the license to to kill replicants. Oh, yeah, right, yeah. In general, yeah, he's like killing replicants. And that that's what it means to be a Blade Runner, right? is Yeah, to be so he he has this ah this license, and the story is about a few of those... of those mis ah those automatons or they are androids which look exactly like humans who escape from uh from space and return back to uh earth in order to get some more life because they have this um uh this uh after four years they are they are theyre dying in order of like the the notion is we want to um uh to to um
Speaker: to prevent for them to develop emotions. So after four years, it's happening. So they have been programmed to die in a way, if you want to to say they are dying or whatever.
Speaker: So this is the basic. Yeah. so it's like we have these advanced... androids, also called replicants, which they're sort of located off world. So there's this whole distinction in the movie of like... Yeah, in a way you can think you can say that the world is like in a way after ah an atomic war or whatever, like the the world is about to be destroyed or this is the field the the atmosphere.
Speaker: If you are in Earth, you probably have some kind of sickness. oh you are yeah So like being on Earth is like ah is like a bad thing. it It means that you're still in this like dystopian place that's seemingly full of trash and smog. It's like a total like industrial wasteland. And so if you're on Earth, it's actually undesirable. There are two possibilities. You are poor or or you have some a disease.
Speaker: which prevent you from going to this space or whatever off world. so So the androids, they were originally off world and they actually invent, they have been used in order to like, if you are going to a place which cannot, like we cannot survive with us. So they are, they are being sent over there and they, they are, war they are slaves.
Speaker: over there in order to prepare the place for humans because they have these abilities. They are robots. And so so some of these guys are like some of these replicants. um They kind of rebel basically and they come back to Earth.
Speaker: And their goal is, like you said, to kind of have more life because they've actually been designed to only live for four years. Yeah.
Speaker: And so you have like a group of replicants who come back to Earth. Yeah. And basically, um it's like the official authorities are aware of these replicants having you know rebelled, come back to Earth, and they need to do something about it And so then they hire ah Harrison Ford, Rick Deckard in the movie. Yeah. So in a way, yeah the story is not... If you're going all the way back to the Czech story about the the robot, the the first and the first time word has been used.
Speaker: Right, right. It's like the same stories. ah For me, actually, i have to say it like at least once, this movie is supposed to be like it's based Dick's book. Yeah.
Speaker: on them on dicks ah a book
Speaker: But I think it's actually based... it's like it's it's like It's supposed to be um a cover of Dick's book, Do Androids Dreams of Electric Ship.
Speaker: But I think it's actually a cover of Eta Hoffman book and about the Sandman.
Speaker: So I think that in terms of of philosophy and terms of literature, it's more based about Eta Hoffman, the Sandman.
Speaker: But this this is just a side comment, not important for us. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So yeah what what's what's the name of the... Oh, the Czech author, Karol Kapek, I think is? Yeah. yeah he He's the one who came up with the word... Robota. Robot. Robota. Which is ah is it' a slave.
Speaker: it's In Czech, it's simply slave. Right, right. This is a direct translation.
Speaker: okay So all there it' also about it's always the same stories with robots about there being some kind of double that looks like people, like like humans, and how you like the problem to different differentiate, to to to distinguish. It's always the same story. So in that sense, it's not the it's not a story which makes this movie is such a great philosophical movie in a way.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. You know, it's in some ways it's the theme of.
Speaker: Well, yeah, on the one hand, the issue of the the the creation being hard to distinguish from. um The genuine. Well, I guess, yeah, the artificial creation are being difficult to distinguish from the natural or the genuine human in this case.
Speaker: it says that And then also the rebellion of the creation, I feel like that's also a sort of classic theme. Yeah. So it's going in know in that sense, it's going all the way back to Descartes on the one hand with the the the notion of of automatons who behave, like they look like us, they behave like us.
Speaker: So it's going all the way back to Descartes. in that sense and on the on um and the other narrative, it's more about the Jewish narrative of the Golem from Prague.
Speaker: So you know this is simply the background. i'm just I just want to say that in that sense, the movie is is just another movie. with like If you're going to check all the movies,
Speaker: yeah they're always the same in in in this area. Like, it's a golem. It's like the slave who wants to take over the ah the ah the master. it's is iss In Frankenstein, it's also the same.
Speaker: So this is what this is this is not important for the movie, but this is like the the the the big narrative.
Speaker: Good. I mean, I don't know if we want to go through... like Later parts of the plot, i mean we can just mention that you know it's like yeah he's hired to kill um or retire these replicants, yeah but then you know things get a little bit bit complicated because um he ends up meeting Rachel, who technically is a replicant.
Speaker: But she actually believes she's a human and then he falls in love with her. So anyway, there's like a love plot where Harrison Ford falls in love with it. Once again, the big issue over there, it's not about the fact he's being in love with her.
Speaker: It's actually about she's asking him over and again, did did you ever been in the test? There is this um this this text this text this test to identify androids.
Speaker: So he all the time, and in the book, it's even much it' much more hard like it's much more obvious. He's all the time being asked by different characters, did you, did the test.
Speaker: How do you know you are not Android? So in a way, Rachel is more like a mirror for, for the card. And once again, the the name of of the main character is amazing. The card, it's simply the card, the same name with a different letter.
Speaker: yeah so it's it's very obvious that he's, I'm working here with the card. It's very obvious. it's it's not It's not like a big, ah secret. So the the issue is Rachel, that is like, she's a reflection for him.
Speaker: Like, okay, I didn't know I'm on and i'm an Android. Do you know? In a way, the big issue in the movie is that you as a viewer, as a viewer, you need to ask yourself, how do I know?
Speaker: my memory yeah and are not implanted. How do I know I'm not an Android? It's, it's, it's a big, it's a big, it's a big issue. I think. Well, yeah. I mean, I think what you're touching on there and, um, you know maybe we're slightly getting ahead of ourselves, but at any rate, you know, what you're touching on there, you talked about, you know, there's certain features of the film, which are not so remarkable. Like for example, yeah. The idea of like, um, the, the,
Speaker: the the artificial creation kind of rising up, rebelling. And the fact that the if the bad man Roy looked like a Nazi, it's like it's always the same. yeah but but the But you're kind of hitting on here when it comes to the issue of like, basically, you're not sure whether Deckard Harrison Ford, who's you know supposed to be hunting the replicants. You're not really sure whether he himself is actually replicant. think that the big issue here is that René Descartes, in his book, when you read it carefully, you discover that he himself wasn't sure.
Speaker: he has this part in which he asks, who I am? like he he is not sure whether he is a human being. So you know in that sense,
Speaker: You know, but what, what, what, what makes us human? The, the, the, the, the motto of this company of, of who made all the androids are too human, uh, all too human away.
Speaker: Uh, like, uh, more human than human, more humans than human. It's like, it's referenced to Nietzsche in a way. Uh, So the question is what does it mean to be human in this current age, this technological age?
Speaker: ah It seems like a decision. Don't think in my genes or something. Yeah. So, I mean, in terms of some of its remarkable features, you know, I just would mention, like, it kind of redefined the sci-fi genre because it's because it's kind of a slower, darker,
Speaker: obviously kind of philosophical and it's kind of a meditative movie. And so that's, you know, in that sense, like the best movie for me, like I have this whole book about Kubrick's book, 2001, Space Oddity. in that book,
Speaker: so in that book is there is two two hour and i hour and a half and there is 17 minutes of talking. It's always silent. So he's going back and forth with Kubrick and he also was in a direct dialogue with Kubrick. So in that sense, also the beginning the opening scene of the movie, it's like Kubrick, completely Kubrick.
Speaker: So this in a way, silence is silent it's not about the silence. The silence is important. because it gives you time to hear the back, the back, like like like ah the the noises in in the background.
Speaker: There is never silence. Like in Kubrick movies, in the space, there is this total silence. But in over like in in in in in this movie, there's all these these sounds of electronics machines.
Speaker: Always. So, and in a way, this is what actually, this is the feature who, that make this movie as a movie. I'm not talking about philosophy now, a ah great movie, the background of the city, the city is like, you know, if you, if you, if you was the soprano, so it's, of course, Tony is, is the, male is the main character.
Speaker: But if, if you, uh,
Speaker: There is this... ah Wait a minute. i will Wait a minute.
Speaker: Wait a minute. So if you're if you're watching The Wire, for example, yeah? So the main character of The Wire yeah and yeah is is actually Baltimore.
Speaker: So in here again, the it's it's the main, for me, the like the real hero, the main issue of the of of the story of this movie is actually this Los Angeles.
Speaker: It's the city. It's like this endless city. This is the place where he is really he'ss he's really taking everything a step forward. he's I think he's in his mind, he saw, are you familiar with the beginning of Taxi Driver?
Speaker: Yeah. This like really dirt dirty New York. So he he had this, he had this thing, this picture in his, in his, in his back of his, of his head.
Speaker: That's fascinating. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely like the city in this film is is very overwhelming. It's really um sort of confronting you on a sensory level in terms of, like you said, the you know the the noise, the constant rain, the noise, the neon, the crowding. so you know it's It's amazing because all the characters...
Speaker: Ford, for example, the it did the the the the main character. As an actor, he didn't understand anything about the movie.
Speaker: He couldn't understand what actually he's doing because it was it was without the background. And then he took the background as a producer in It was in the studio. So in a way, if you want, this movie is also about the importance of the producer.
Speaker: the character couldn't understand what they actually did doing in the movie. It is amazing because it was so disconnected. And it's actually very important because the figure always feels that they are not at home in the movie.
Speaker: Everybody, it's this uncanny feeling, everybody feels strange stranger, the androids at home. but but the androids feel at home their parts They are part of this because they are direct direct outcome of the technological ah ah mode of being in a way.
Speaker: I know this interview going all like, I'm sorry, it's always like that with me. I'm just going all all direction together, I know. No, it's good. It's good. I mean, your great basically, you're bringing up one of you know the key ideas in in your work, as far as I can tell, if you're reading of Blade Runner, this idea that actually the replicants are more at home in this technological ghetto than the human beings are.
Speaker: and And actually, this is the moment, if you would allow me. You know, it's very... Heidegger always always was you know he was arrogant. He was very about himself.
Speaker: it was all about it it was It was always all about him. And he always said, the I'm still waiting for for the philosopher to actually read me.
Speaker: And, you know, I must say that, you know, as a Jew, it's easy for me to say it because, you know, Heidegger was a Nazi and all these stories. So for me, it's easy to say that Heidegger actually is is really an amazing philosopher. And actually I agree with him that we are still waiting for the one who actually to read him properly.
Speaker: ah So it's difficult for me to say, it but I think it's true. but so So Scott, I think, actually read it. He actually understood Heidegger, even even if he never heard about about Heidegger.
Speaker: Because there is always always this Heidegger, in there is the early Heidegger of being in time of 27, and then there is the later Heidegger of the question about technology in 54.
Speaker: and in in in in in in fifty four And there is always this talking about this. Those are different kinds of figures. This, those are different kinds of philosophy.
Speaker: I'm not, I'm not going into the ethics issue. You like it was early Heidegger and then the Nazi, nevermind. In, in, in, in the later Heidegger, he's insist that we need uh, different, like to, to differentiate it between tools and,
Speaker: And technology with a capital T. So tools is like all these machines we are using, but this is actually, it is not technology. And if we will talk about tools, we will not understand what technology is. Technology is like, in a way, technology.
Speaker: There is logic. There is some kind of logic for to to to this technology. This technology, in a way, it's a gestalt. It's like a way of... seeing the world, like if you when i I am unable to see nature around me and to see everything in terms of total efficiency, including human being, i'm I feel I feel like I'm in a technological mode of being. Okay, so technological mode of being is not tools.
Speaker: it's a way of being thrown into the world. Okay. So in that sense, and everybody like in a way, except this, this, this is the Gary on concept, butri this god ah but but, but, but, but really Scott say, no, the, you can, and you can, if you are,
Speaker: In a way, you say each kind of technological mode of being has his... It's but it's possible to ah to identify different kind of tools that are a strongly associated with technological mode of being.
Speaker: So actually, the replicants, the androids, are the pure result of the techno-scientific mode of being. Okay, yeah you know there there is this this this moment in which he's he's he's winning us in chess.
Speaker: Roy, the android. So he this in a way he's a genius already. He has this ah endless IQ, if you like, or whatever. He's very smart.
Speaker: ah But in in in in a way he's the only one who who has the ability to feel at home within within this environment which become already total technological environment. There is only two times in the movie, twice you can see nature.
Speaker: This is actually amazing. You know, you should actually in the movie, it's more obvious that it's it's it's about It's like I'm dreaming to have a ship which is real, but i'm i'm i have this I have this ship which is actually an android.
Speaker: So back to the movie, there is ah in in in in the in the first scene, there is the light, there is a... wait a minute, there is and yeah The first scene is amazing in this movie. You're kind of like, are are are you kind of like you're high above yeah drifting over the city and you're seeing these like plumes of fire. so and there there is a lightning.
Speaker: okay There is a lighting. So this is like in a way, sales this is very important. So this is the first time you see nature and it's always it's like zero. So it's like if you if you really want to understand Scott, so he's telling you, I'm I'm still working in in in the like my structure is the structure of the of of the of the of the, uh, of, of the Greek myth, like Zeus.
Speaker: So this lighting say, yeah, we are still in this framework. I'm in the Western world. Okay. So this is the beginning of the Western culture. Yeah. Zeus and, and, and all this myth.
Speaker: And the second time, is is in in the test, which which and the card, there is this meeting between the card and Rachel, and Rachel needs to go the Voight-Campff test.
Speaker: and The test that they use to determine whether someone is a replicant or... a human and Tyrell the kind of the the big boss of this whole world yeah he has Deckard do the boy comp test on Rachel right yeah so in the test there is the because he's in those towers this is the only place in the city that you can can actually see sun it's all polluted but it's it's very high so there there is this sunset and ask yeah And he asked him to
Speaker: to hide the sun. ah to to take on to take off the the the curtain you know in order to to hide the sun Right. So this is really important. There is only two times you can see the nature.
Speaker: The first time is the light the lighting, which is not exactly nature because is already a result of the polluted city. I i will get to that moment in a moment. And there is the sun, but the sun is is like preventing from the technology to work.
Speaker: This is a brilliant moment Of really Scott. Oh, so you need to hide nature for technology to work is what you're saying? What technology actually do. And this is very important. This is a Scott's brilliant insight.
Speaker: What technology wants, in a way, wants. It's very difficult to technology wants. You know, it's it's not an entity, but in a way. What technology does is replacing nature with technology, with tools.
Speaker: And actually, the one thing that the one thing that actually prevents technology from ah ah full like from ah ah ah in a way yeah like fully dominating and taking control of everything? Yeah, is nature.
Speaker: So the sun is is still a problem. The water is still a problem. But, and this is the big issue, technology, and this is the the real thing technology doing. If you would ask me one thing that technology really doing, and and this is the reason really Scott is a philosopher, it's replacing nature with tools, but ah but we we still feel that we are, nevertheless, we feel that we are in the world, that we're seeing nature.
Speaker: For example, we are in the lab and we're sure that we are doing experiments with nature. No, we are in the lab. This is not nature. No, in Israel, for example, in a way you're going to see nature, but it's never nature. There is always this, ah in a way, yeah it's called... the
Speaker: reserved in a way. It's like a reserved place of nature. Yeah, nature reserve. Yeah. yeah It's kind of like a um Yeah, like like a national park in the US. So it's not really a nature.
Speaker: You're going to a national park, you're paying, you have this God and whatever. And, you know, in Israel, you think you're seeing in the sky ah ah eagles, but all the eagles now in Israel are being recovered. that they They are taking the eggs to another place, you know, and they and they help them to ah to ah to, you know, in a way...
Speaker: all all the all the In the end of the day, all the eagles you're seeing in the sky are made by technology. yeah So in in a way, you think you you're watching nature, but you lost the ability to do it.
Speaker: And this is really a big issue, which Scott takes directly from Heidegger, I think. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so so let me try to echo this a little bit. So it's kind of like... You know, on the one hand, you're saying this, this Heidegger in point, technology, it's not just a bunch of tools, it's not just a bunch of devices. It's actually a way, a mode of revealing, a way of sort of inhabiting and existence. It's more than that. As long as if you're looking at tools, you will never understand technology.
Speaker: This is Heidegger. Right. and and then And the idea here is that nature is actually like, isn't it is in it isn't nature for Heidegger sort of like, in fact, it's an older form in which the world showed up. The world used to show up in a different way as sort of like this living independent. It's something we encounter. It's other than us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then um arc sort of with the technological age,
Speaker: now the world shows up differently. we we don't It's not living, independent, something we encounter as transcending us. Now it's like measurable, controllable, it's all just about being a resource. Yeah, for Israel, for example, we use all the rivers to do electricity to make electricity, And if you go into the beach, it could be like an area of military or area of electricity or area of taking ah the salty water and make it into a sweet water or a place for hotels.
Speaker: And there is this small beach which called natural beach, like two kilometers, something like that. And yeah, so this is like, we are looking... ah it's about we we we are observing nature and seeing actually as a resource.
Speaker: Yeah, and so there's this illusion basically that we think we're still encountering nature in certain contexts, but actually it's like this highly processed, controlled environment. And and yeah and and if you'd like just one one more comment,
Speaker: this revolutionary shift actually accoued before the scientific revolution for Heidegger. But this is is a whole new topic. But it's very important that this this shift ah for Heidegger is before the scientific revolution. Because science is a is a way is is in a way or an outcome of the of already the technological mode of being.
Speaker: It's not applying, it's not like applying technology. It's not like science is applied technology in a way. Technology is primary over science. Yeah. So I was just thinking with Blade Runner, this kind of explains that like, you know, there's no real animals, right? In Blade Runner? Like, isn't it just, it's always like artificial light environment, very synthetic. There's all these like fake animals that are around. Yeah. The old with the red Yeah.
Speaker: oh yeah Oh, how do you say it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's the um the snake that... yeah So one of the replicants that Deckard retires, or aka kills, is...
Speaker: She's like, i don't know, how do you describe her? She's like night show. She's actually, it's once a again, it's another myth because she's, it's of course, she's Chava from the Jewish, from the Bible.
Speaker: There is Adam and Chava. Oh yeah, yeah. And the Chava and the snake. So this is once again another myth. ah Yeah, that's a that's a cute clear case where the... Because they they even... It's even explicit in the dialogue. They mention something about the the snake that first...
Speaker: Yeah. Lead man astray. I can't remember. But anyway, the snake that she uses in her show is not a real snake. It's a, ah it's a, it's fake artificial snake. And in in general, like the whole, this whole world is populated by a fake animal. I think the real issue over there, that she's in a way, in a way, she's a sex robot in a way. Yeah.
Speaker: It's difficult to, she's actually, this is her goal. She's a killer and a sex robot. ah Uh, so in a way, I see really Scott want to say something much deeper about sexuality in this age, which become mechanical as well.
Speaker: Like the snake, if you think about the snake as a symbol for sexuality, it's all in a technological age. It's all mechanical. This is like another very important insight of really Scott.
Speaker: it's in in In a way, it this is very Foucault kind of insight. I think he was influenced by Foucault.
Speaker: Yeah, so maybe we could also just get out on the table this idea that that you um that you have in your work that, in a way, Ridley Scott is a philosopher, right?
Speaker: through this film or like this film is doing philosophy somehow. Yeah. So, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm a comment on that or yeah I'm not in the field of, uh, there is this field of, uh, cinema and philosophy. I'm, I'm, I would not argue that any kind of, or like all the, the, all, there are these kinds of movies, like the metrics, which seems as if they have philosophy, but it's, it's like in terms of philosophy is bullshit. It's simply a nice movie.
Speaker: But I don't think really Scott so thoughtto is yeah thought yeah I'm doing philosophy. But I think that because Heidegger has this very important ah the and essay about the age of picture, the age of the camera. Age of the world picture, yeah. yeah So in this in this article, he actually says that
Speaker: We are living in the age in which representation controls everything. ah In a way, since Aplaton, the world has been replaced with a representation, which goes back to the notion that actually the world has been replaced by technology.
Speaker: We are replacing the world with representations.
Speaker: And so in movies playing a very important role over there. So in a way, I think that if, if the, like in the, in the, kub in the Kubrick movie, in in, in, in, in the, in the mechanical orange, I am not, I'm not, I'm not sure this is the the name.
Speaker: at a Clockwork orange. Yeah. Yeah. So in the end you you have this scene in which you see the eyes completely open, being held open. And you actually say, you could think that this is the the eye from the first thing of, of, of Blade Runner, but nevermind.
Speaker: So this is like to really understand that we are in the age and risk in which cinema could actually to be philosophy, but it's not my field.
Speaker: Yeah, that's interesting. So it's like, Philosophy, it's it's like the it's like the most dangerous medium in the way because it's like it's it's the it's the medium by which representation is taking over. It's like a prime medium where the representation sort of exactly taking over the world. So it would be nice if that something within that medium could itself like push back against that process. And and this is like an example of that maybe or something. yeah And just a small comment, in my last book, in my last in the last proof, you know you receive it before publication. And I had this note, I don't know why, but I did it.
Speaker: And wrote, Heidegger is not a philosopher. He's actually, ah he's actually with a
Speaker: He's actually a prophet. so And I think Kubrick and Ridley Scott are more like Hobart or like are more like prophets. They are not doing cinema. They're not doing philosophy.
Speaker: they actually doing they They are prophets of the age, like Heidegger, like Kafka.
Speaker: Yeah, that seems fun. Yeah, because it's like there's an there's an element of critique And, yeah um, so, uh, sorry, i wanted to bring up something. um Well, maybe we could talk about three of the characters and because I'm just thinking, you know, in your in your work, you kind of you kind of do a care you kind of focus in on... Well, first, like we've already been talking about, you kind of you do ah you talk a lot about the city itself, the environment itself in which ah Blade Runner occurs. So Los Angeles, 2019.
Speaker: um So actually, I want to say something about it because this is this is a big issue. yeah los and the the The weather is like is more like it is more like it looks more like Tokyo, Los Angeles.
Speaker: The weather over in Los Angeles already changed completely. it's It's a weather of of of Thailand or whatever. It's it's not not a weather in the US. And it's all like big Chinatown. So the city is being polluted completely.
Speaker: and the environment has been changed completely because of the technological... ah You know, we can see... There's trash everywhere, right? Yeah. We actually can see it in front of of our eyes today. you know We are changing the environment in ah and and and we make it we we actually ruin this place. you know it's It's quite obvious ah already. so So in that sense, Los Angeles is as is a city without an end. Los Angeles is all over the world.
Speaker: And year 2019, it's like over the corner. It could be tomorrow. It could be in two years from now. It's, it's, it's, it's no, it's, it's, it's might be already been, but I'm not sure, but like 2019 say it could happen every moment.
Speaker: Uh, so yeah, with that comment to the character, I think that ah i will I will go to ah I would like to talk about Roy, which is the android, which is the leader of the android. Right. Yeah, he's the leader. He's the intense, he's charismatic leader yeah of the replicants. He's kind of leading this rebellious uprising.
Speaker: Yeah, actually, you know, he's the actually the only character who understood the movie. And... like while Like while it was occurring the... What was his name? Rutger Hauer? Yeah, he's a German.
Speaker: Yeah. And the last thing actually he it is his is it is his own word. It's like he he he understood it. it's it it it It wasn't in the script or something.
Speaker: ah So right, yeah, he he's in a way he's the leader. And after the card already killed everybody, Uh, they like, it's like, it's like, like the two of them.
Speaker: And here are the, the, the very crucial moment because you know, they need, they, they, they live for four years and Roy Betty's four years have been over and you can see his, his, his fingers start to, ah like to scramble and he's has this difficulty to control himself already.
Speaker: But he he understands something. ah He has this meeting a a few minutes before that thing. He has this meeting with Sheldon Tyrell.
Speaker: In a way, his father. Right. The inventor. So the inventor of all these androids, yeah um it and and he asked Roy ends up finding him, confronting him, yeah because he he's demanding from in the inventor. He wants more life. He doesn't want to yeah die after four years. This movie has a lot lot there is a ah a lot of of of ah of variation. so um in In one variation, he says, I want more life, fucker.
Speaker: In one, he says, I want more life, father. so Uh, so he asked for more life, but then Sheldon, which is actually, he's the big philosopher in the movie says, it's not about how much you live, but how you actually, how you live.
Speaker: It's about, he talking about the quality of life. Yeah. About the intensity of life, about the light, about, about the brightness of the light. And he actually... In a movie with no light, basically. It's like such a dark movie. So in a way, you can say, yeah, so he lived four years and we lived 40 years or 80s. It doesn't matter.
Speaker: the the The most important thing that it has a limit. It could be four years, could be 10 years, could be 50, 100. But life needs to end. So he understands, Roy, that it's not it is not about...
Speaker: how much time you you have in this life. It's about what what are you doing with this time? So in a way, this is exactly Heideggerian kind of shift. He's shifting from denying death, fighting death, to accepting it.
Speaker: Heidegger, most important notion, early Heidegger of being in time, most important notion is being toward death. Death, if we want to be really free, you know, an authentic way, yeah we need to accept that we are, that we that our life has an end.
Speaker: need to accept it, and then we are free toward our death. As long as we are we are denying it, we are part of the day. the day this is I'm the dust man in a way. Yeah, yeah. So this is like, yeah, this is kind of that key Heideggerian notion where, yeah like being authentic for Heidegger is something like living in awareness of your genuine condition. So that means living in awareness of mortality.
Speaker: And then I guess like with later Hider, it would be like part of being aware of your condition would be realizing that you're like trapped in this technological world. And then part of authenticity, right? Isn't it also kind of like you need to be active, you need to take ownership of your life and like not just passively...
Speaker: absorb like pre-given you know what Anyway, something like that. Yeah, in a way. so ah So in a way he understand it.
Speaker: if Roy does. Are you saying Roy or Roy? so all right So do you think, let me ask this question. Sorry to interrupt you, but insofar as Roy is like trying to extend his life, he's, he's, he's, you know, he's going back to the father, to his creator, demanding that his life be extended.
Speaker: Is that an authentic move or is that like a sign? Okay. That's not. Okay. Okay. And how do we know it? Because you know once once he's entered the the room of of sherdon of Sheldon Tyrell, he said, i accept to see you sooner. like This is part of the role. Yeah, of course. you yeah You have been programmed in order to be here.
Speaker: so it's not So this is all boring stuff, in a way, he said. Okay, this is fascinating. because This is one of the most interesting things about your reading of Blade Runner, is like the connection to Oedipus here, where it's like Yeah, this is another myth. we we are being This is the the reason the book begins with the lightning. We are still in the metaphysics of of the the the Greek myth.
Speaker: So, of course, the eyes and the Oedipus, it's all over it's all there. all of you know This movie is a combination of Freud, Heidegger, and Descartes, in a way. But, but yeah, he he's just... you know In this meeting, yeah actually...
Speaker: And I would say something which is going to be quite tricky. So in a way, roy understand that his mission is... this is a big This is a big moment in this talk. Sorry for being such a dramatic.
Speaker: That he has a goal. And the goal is not killing Roy the card. It's not killing the card. Roy's mission is not killing the card. It's actually...
Speaker: get ah allow the card to be the father of the next generation to to get him free so in the last scene he can kill the card but he's not doing it in that moment ah and and he's not killing him for very good reason because the card is actually an android like Rachel who is not knowing it.
Speaker: And his mission, and I think he's being programmed from the first first moment. This is his mission. The mission is the card. So the card doesn't know he's an android.
Speaker: And you know what? It might be that he's not an android. He might be a human being, but he might be an android. So Roy's mission is to allow is first to to to to help Descartes to look about Android yeah with with as as as friends in in an intimate way. you know He is the lover of Rachel. He's doing love with Rachel.
Speaker: So he has been felt in love with an Android. So he might be an android. So the the next step is actually to understand. And this is this is the reason that Scott is ah is a big philosopher. Descartes needs to understand that he that he is not an android and he is not a man. He needs to choose.
Speaker: He needs to choose what he actually is. Wow. so Okay, so we got to we got to break this down a little bit so And this is our mission as This is a big claim. so This is our mission as well today.
Speaker: So are you saying that
Speaker: the the goal of Tyrell when he created Roy was for him to
Speaker: Like Roy was kind of meant to target Deckard. in order you but In order for him to do it in in the right way, needs to get out of him of his program.
Speaker: In a way, he has been programmed to do it. But in order to do it properly, he actually needs to understand something about this. needs to go through a process.
Speaker: so but So would you say that that process that he needs to go to through? so so So you're saying, and I mean, the way I'm thinking about is like you're almost saying that Roy needs to like lead Deckard through a type of initiation or trial, almost like a ritual.
Speaker: It's all about the card. the only the The only character really important in this movie is the card. They're all in a way, the drama is in a way, if you like, say the drama is inside the world of if you're talking in Freudian kind of terms, it's inside the world of the card.
Speaker: Everybody. so Yeah. And so like the hunt is other than the the the hunt that's really famous at the end the film. It's a waste of time. Why Roy need to be hunted if he's going to be killed by himself in about 10, 15 minutes.
Speaker: Think about it. It's a waste of time. Okay. And so are you saying too that like Tyrell is kind of in a hidden way, this is what he ultimately desires from? It's not in a hidden way. So this is actually, okay, this is, I think, in this is the most complicated issue, ah a place in my in my paper, and I think the most important.
Speaker: If you are obeying to the Greek mythology, you You know, the big issue in the mised mythology is about fate. It's about your ability to to to break out of your fate.
Speaker: So Roy, is indeed all the characters have the effect, and the question is whether Roy breaking out of his fate, or but or or it could be that he was also programmed to arrive to this scene to the car. Yeah, right. because because Because your initial reading of the film, the superficial reading is, when he so another famous moment in the film is that Deckard, he's hunting Roy. He's supposed to kill Roy. But of course, Roy is totally in charge of the situation.
Speaker: Deckard has no real chance to kill Roy. and in And basically, at any rate though, Roy decides to save Deckard. Deckard falls from the building, but instead of letting him fall, Roy saves him. And what you think when you're watching it is, oh, this is Roy sort of taking charge of his own. He's not following the script anymore because yeah he was designed to be a killer. But look, he's actually more compassionate than human than human beings.
Speaker: He's like transcending his own script. But I think aren't you saying we know that that's actually mission fulfillment? Like when he grabs him, that was the mission was to educate Deckard through this trial.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. i did I definitely didn't. I didn't understand the movie either. If that's if that's right. Okay. Actually, I'm, you know, I'm not sure that this This is a beautiful thing. I'm not sure really Scott understood it as well.
Speaker: But if you're really obeying, to if you're really thinking in terms of of the Greek mythology, there there isn't a ah reason to think that he's not like doing what he actually obeyed.
Speaker: Even if he, you know, it's like Spinoza, you are sure that you are free, but you are not free at all. But but you know the only the only character who is... It's all like mirrors for the card.
Speaker: And in a way, the movie, for me, happening... You know, everybody familiar or heard about Descartes' famous night with three dreams, Olympic dreams.
Speaker: All the Western philosophy has been born from this night of Descartes being in Germany, suffering from anxiety and have these nightmares.
Speaker: Yeah, this is very famous night. So in a way, the movie Los Angeles is actually the atmosphere at the atmosphere of these nightmares. And all the figures over there are figures in this in this dream.
Speaker: And Descartes is simply Descartes. And he needs to transform, to have some kind of transformation. Like in a way to
Speaker: to understand that the Descartes philosophy is a dead end.
Speaker: ah so this it says like a okay so it it's um yeah So it's like an implicit critique of Descartes insofar as we're... Deckard is really Descartes and Deckard needs to go through this trial initiation at the hands of Roy Batty in order to achieve
Speaker: Is it...
Speaker: yeah What is Descartes fundamentally lacking? Or what is Deckard fundamentally lacking prior to his initiation ritual? He's too sure that he's human being. but if Okay. Excess of certainty. But if you're looking about the final version of the movie, he has this moment in which he's falling asleep and he sees this honeycomb. He's seeing this
Speaker: the this the unicorn. he's The unicorn of the origami thing that yeah Gaff makes. But in the last version of the movie, he's falling asleep on the piano and he has this vision of unicorn.
Speaker: This movie has a lot of version, but the 2007 version, which is the official version, which is Scott's version, he's feeling asleep on the piano and he has this dream or vision of unicorn.
Speaker: And the unicorn is ah is a symbol of the Android. So in a way, And his picture is very similar to the picture of Rachel. So you can say that he's from the same, he's simply the same model of Rachel. So he's an android who is who is not familiar, like he doesn't know that he's an android.
Speaker: Okay? So, but this is the moment which Ridley Scott's really doing great philosophy. It is for him to decide what he is Is he ah android or a human being? Or it might be some kind of new kind of combination version.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: ah It is for him to decide.
Speaker: so So yeah, what he doesn't need is more certainty. What he needs ah is to kind of accept uncertainty and he needs to make ah like a kind of fundamental decision or something. Okay, so I'm... Well, yeah.
Speaker: Certainty, it's in a way fixation. you know Uncertainty, it's it's freedom. You know, i can i can i know i am' i can testify about myself. I'm reading all day long and Each time I'm reading a new great book, I'm completely confused.
Speaker: Everything is breaking apart in my, like inside. And I say, yeah, that is the meaning of being free. I'm reading and I'm not sure. yeah In that moment, you know, I'm buying it tomorrow. I'll buy another thing. Like I'm completely, i i don't have any fixation about any kind of opinion, prove nothing. I'm completely open to all kinds of possibilities.
Speaker: And this is actually, if you're reading, I'm teaching Descartes for over 20 years. And if you're reading his book, the introduction, like this is this is the real journey he's describing.
Speaker: This inner journey of like falling apart. This is doing philosophy. Doing philosophy is falling apart each day, each and every day, falling apart completely to the most fundamental elements.
Speaker: Yeah. And the movie, and the movie especially Los Angeles, she's shaking you off.
Speaker: You're being shaken. Yeah. There's various, yeah, there's various instances of kind of breakdowns or shakedowns or being falling apart in the movie. You know, it's like, Rachel, her identity breaks down. So that's so Rachel is an android who thinks she's a human and then she comes to realize partly due to the investigative probing of Becker. But how do you know that she's really an android? Because Sheldon Terrell has told so?
Speaker: How do you know?
Speaker: How do we know? Isn't it he he realizes that
Speaker: Well, doesn't she fail the Voight-Kampff test? She, you know, but, but, but, you know, he's, Sheldon Tyrell asked Roy, he's asking the card a very good question.
Speaker: Did you, did you, did you ever check if a human being is, is, is like, you know, if, is is is it possible that I will fail in this, in this test?
Speaker: The answer is yes. You know, he asked, I want to see a negative, I want to see a positive, m So how do you know that this test is working about humans? So doubt is cast on the test itself.
Speaker: Yeah. Everything has been doubted completely. Yeah. I want to, if we are toward the end, i think. yeah Yeah. I want to actually end with what I said, what i I found the most important thing in the movie, if I may.
Speaker: Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Please. There is this ah ah
Speaker: this moment in which the car taking a picture and he's using this machine.
Speaker: Okay, in order to see what actually there is inside the the picture. think I sent you, are you familiar with that scene? you're familiar with that scene yeah Yeah, he's like using this like machine where he can like he he'll like give it voice commands and then it'll focus in. and like and so He's he's like probing this picture. He's investigating. the and The picture is a picture supposedly of Rachel's childhood.
Speaker: It's like a childhood No, it's's it's actually, it's it's it's ah it's um it's a picture from, for and and and there is this Leon Android who has been died it been murdered by Rachel.
Speaker: Rachel helped the car and she killed Leon. And in the house in in in his house, they found this picture. And in the picture, there is Roy. And Roy is looking ah on on on the other room.
Speaker: And the car using this machine. And he's doing a trick, at some kind of trick. and is able to see Zora. Zora is the woman with the snake.
Speaker: Are you with me? Yeah, yeah, i And based this movie, he's identifying her. But if you're looking on that picture, the actor is not Zora. He's an anonymous kind of actor.
Speaker: ba And the real message i notice isd that okay yeah and the real method of Scott, that but that if you will rely on on representation, the representation are always lying.
Speaker: If you go into the first scene and you're seeing that the eye of Leon in the Voikov machine is green, but his eyes are actually blue.
Speaker: All those technology changing reality and they make representation which are disconnected from reality.
Speaker: This is the big issue. If you're looking now today about Facebook, for example, the problem that Facebook always gives you to see what you want. They give you more than what you want.
Speaker: and And like today, as ah there was there was a paper from Stanford or something like that researcher who actually proved that that the AI techniques always give you what you want to hear. They give you more than you, like more you.
Speaker: like they They help you to believe in yourself in a way too much. Those representations are always lies. This is, for me, the most important message of the of the movie.
Speaker: and this is and and and and And the way Descartes looking for Zora in this picture. And he actually s seeing another woman. It's not Zora. But for him, it's Zora.
Speaker: So this is the big lie. I know it's a bit complicated, but... Well, but but the idea that representation is is not revealing reality, the idea that it's kind of distorting it, yeah replacing it, yeah that makes sense. and then And then the photo analysis scene, you know it's like Rick Deckard, yeah, he's zooming in, he's enhancing, he's trying to look inside the image, he's trying to get like a deeper handle on reality. yeah But it turns out that the representation...
Speaker: It's not really helping him encounter the real world. no is that he's just In a way, he said, I think he's saying Zora, but if you're looking about the picture, it's not Zora. It's anonymous character. Yeah.
Speaker: It's not Zora. It's someone else.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: so i mean So I guess this we could we could kind of close out with this kind of idea. this The idea is that this is how we need to think about technology. Technology, it's not just a tool that mediates our relationship to reality. it's It's shaping, it's possibly replacing.
Speaker: Yeah, but the the truth is we are sure that we are seeing reality. but It has nothing to do with reality.
Speaker: This sounds like, um isn't this the kind of like, what's his name? Jean-Audriard? Yeah, of course, but he's on going back to Heidegger. Yeah. Okay. so we're So we're just, yeah.
Speaker: Okay. um
Speaker: So yeah, you think that's that's the deepest... layer of the film and it ultimately that layer of the film is echoing Heidegger. Exactly.
Speaker: um Well, this this has been a great discussion. I have to say that, yeah, ah there's there' is more going on in Blade Runner than I realized. It's called, by the way, the Esper Machine.
Speaker: What's that? It's called the Esper machine, by the way. Oh, that's the machine that Deckard uses in Descartes or Deckard.
Speaker: dick I think this is the best way to finish the interview. Perfect.
