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#32 Yochai Ataria: Why Blade Runner is Secretly About Fake Realities
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Have you ever suspected that the technology you use isn't just a tool, but an entirely fake reality replacing the natural world?
On this episode of The AITEC Podcast, Sam Bennett sits down with Israeli philosopher Yochai Ataria to explore the brilliant philosophical undercurrents of Ridley Scott's 1982 classic, Blade Runner. Ataria reveals how the film functions as a profound Heideggerian critique of the modern technological age.
They unpack how the film's protagonist, Rick Deckard, serves as a direct stand-in for René Descartes, undergoing a radical crisis of certainty and identity. The conversation also delves into ancient Greek frameworks, exploring how the replicant Roy Batty mirrors the Oedipus myth and how the rare flashes of lightning in a polluted sky tie back to Zeus. Ultimately, this episode asks whether the representations we rely on—from futuristic photo-analyzers to modern social media algorithms—are actually elaborate lies designed to disconnect us from reality.
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Transcript
Introduction to Yochai Atarya and Blade Runner
00:00:17
Speaker
Welcome back to the A-Tech Philosophy Podcast. I'm Dr. Sam Bennett and I'm delighted to share a conversation with Israeli philosopher Yochai Atarya. We discussed the 1982 classic film Blade Runner directed by Ridley Scott and starring Harrison Ford. Yochai has recently published a Heideggerian reading of the film and the conversation begins with Yochai just giving a kind of introduction to the film for those who haven't seen it or haven't seen it in a while.
00:00:58
Speaker
Like before this program, I just saw it once again with my eldest son. He's 17 he couldn't understand anything. And I think I had probably the same experience in the same age. It's not like a movie that you see as a young. It's it's not like... ah ah Fight Club, like or whatever. It's it's like... they there are There are those deep movies which are all also... you you You are being held by them immediately, but it's not this kind of movie.
00:01:28
Speaker
so So I saw it like... but when when in my youth and then probably once again around 15 years ago. But like i decided to like to see it once again seriously. like i just no I'm just reading all the classics. So Don Quixote and and Thomas Mann and and ah like a series of books. And I decided to like to take this movie seriously.
Yochai's Obsession with Blade Runner
00:01:59
Speaker
And I watch it and i and then I become obsessed with this with with the movie. I saw it, I think, probably like tens of times. And i'm I'm not the only one. ah The story is actually quite simple.
00:02:12
Speaker
I don't think that the the story is the real issue here. ah But it's like there is this Blade Runner, it's like an officer, police, who has this license to kill a ah Nexus 6, like ah to kill... ah ah well but but Roy Batty, right?
00:02:37
Speaker
Roy? Yeah, no, no, no. They have the license to to kill replicants. Oh, yeah, right, yeah. In general, yeah, he's like killing replicants. And that that's what it means to be a Blade Runner, right? is Yeah, to be so he he has this ah this license, and the story is about a few of those... of those mis ah those automatons or they are androids which look exactly like humans who escape from uh from space and return back to uh earth in order to get some more life because they have this um uh this uh after four years they are they are theyre dying in order of like the the notion is we want to um uh to to um
00:03:30
Speaker
to prevent for them to develop emotions. So after four years, it's happening. So they have been programmed to die in a way, if you want to to say they are dying or whatever.
00:03:44
Speaker
So this is the basic. Yeah. so it's like we have these advanced...
Dystopian Earth Setting
00:03:50
Speaker
androids, also called replicants, which they're sort of located off world. So there's this whole distinction in the movie of like... Yeah, in a way you can think you can say that the world is like in a way after ah an atomic war or whatever, like the the world is about to be destroyed or this is the field the the atmosphere.
00:04:12
Speaker
If you are in Earth, you probably have some kind of sickness. oh you are yeah So like being on Earth is like ah is like a bad thing. it It means that you're still in this like dystopian place that's seemingly full of trash and smog. It's like a total like industrial wasteland. And so if you're on Earth, it's actually undesirable. There are two possibilities. You are poor or or you have some a disease.
00:04:38
Speaker
which prevent you from going to this space or whatever off world. so So the androids, they were originally off world and they actually invent, they have been used in order to like, if you are going to a place which cannot, like we cannot survive with us. So they are, they are being sent over there and they, they are, war they are slaves.
00:05:02
Speaker
over there in order to prepare the place for humans because they have these abilities. They are robots.
Replicants' Rebellion and Literary Influences
00:05:10
Speaker
And so so some of these guys are like some of these replicants. um They kind of rebel basically and they come back to Earth.
00:05:19
Speaker
And their goal is, like you said, to kind of have more life because they've actually been designed to only live for four years. Yeah.
00:05:30
Speaker
And so you have like a group of replicants who come back to Earth. Yeah. And basically, um it's like the official authorities are aware of these replicants having you know rebelled, come back to Earth, and they need to do something about it And so then they hire ah Harrison Ford, Rick Deckard in the movie. Yeah. So in a way, yeah the story is not... If you're going all the way back to the Czech story about the the robot, the the first and the first time word has been used.
00:06:03
Speaker
Right, right. It's like the same stories. ah For me, actually, i have to say it like at least once, this movie is supposed to be like it's based Dick's book. Yeah.
00:06:14
Speaker
on them on dicks ah a book
00:06:21
Speaker
But I think it's actually based... it's like it's it's like It's supposed to be um a cover of Dick's book, Do Androids Dreams of Electric Ship.
00:06:34
Speaker
But I think it's actually a cover of Eta Hoffman book and about the Sandman.
00:06:52
Speaker
So I think that in terms of of philosophy and terms of literature, it's more based about Eta Hoffman, the Sandman.
Origin of 'Robot' and Artificial Creations
00:07:03
Speaker
But this this is just a side comment, not important for us. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So yeah what what's what's the name of the... Oh, the Czech author, Karol Kapek, I think is? Yeah. yeah he He's the one who came up with the word... Robota. Robot. Robota. Which is ah is it' a slave.
00:07:23
Speaker
it's In Czech, it's simply slave. Right, right. This is a direct translation.
00:07:31
Speaker
okay So all there it' also about it's always the same stories with robots about there being some kind of double that looks like people, like like humans, and how you like the problem to different differentiate, to to to distinguish. It's always the same story. So in that sense, it's not the it's not a story which makes this movie is such a great philosophical movie in a way.
00:07:59
Speaker
Right. Yeah. You know, it's in some ways it's the theme of.
00:08:07
Speaker
Well, yeah, on the one hand, the issue of the the the creation being hard to distinguish from. um The genuine. Well, I guess, yeah, the artificial creation are being difficult to distinguish from the natural or the genuine human in this case.
00:08:25
Speaker
it says that And then also the rebellion of the creation, I feel like that's also a sort of classic theme. Yeah. So it's going in know in that sense, it's going all the way back to Descartes on the one hand with the the the notion of of automatons who behave, like they look like us, they behave like us.
00:08:46
Speaker
So it's going all the way back to Descartes. in that sense and on the on um and the other narrative, it's more about the Jewish narrative of the Golem from Prague.
00:08:59
Speaker
So you know this is simply the background. i'm just I just want to say that in that sense, the movie is is just another movie. with like If you're going to check all the movies,
00:09:11
Speaker
yeah they're always the same in in in this area. Like, it's a golem. It's like the slave who wants to take over the ah the ah the master. it's is iss In Frankenstein, it's also the same.
00:09:25
Speaker
So this is what this is this is not important for the movie, but this is like the the the the big narrative.
00:09:34
Speaker
Good. I mean, I don't know if we want to go through... like Later parts of the plot, i mean we can just mention that you know it's like yeah he's hired to kill um or retire these replicants, yeah but then you know things get a little bit bit complicated because um he ends up meeting Rachel, who technically is a replicant.
00:10:00
Speaker
But she actually believes she's a human and then he falls in love with her. So anyway, there's like a love plot where Harrison Ford falls in love with it. Once again, the big issue over there, it's not about the fact he's being in love with her.
00:10:14
Speaker
It's actually about she's asking him over and again, did did you ever been in the test? There is this um this this text this text this test to identify androids.
00:10:28
Speaker
So he all the time, and in the book, it's even much it' much more hard like it's much more obvious. He's all the time being asked by different characters, did you, did the test.
00:10:41
Speaker
How do you know you are not Android? So in a way, Rachel is more like a mirror for, for the card. And once again, the the name of of the main character is amazing. The card, it's simply the card, the same name with a different letter.
00:10:56
Speaker
yeah so it's it's very obvious that he's, I'm working here with the card. It's very obvious. it's it's not It's not like a big, ah secret. So the the issue is Rachel, that is like, she's a reflection for
Humanity, Identity, and Memory
00:11:12
Speaker
him.
00:11:12
Speaker
Like, okay, I didn't know I'm on and i'm an Android. Do you know? In a way, the big issue in the movie is that you as a viewer, as a viewer, you need to ask yourself, how do I know?
00:11:29
Speaker
my memory yeah and are not implanted. How do I know I'm not an Android? It's, it's, it's a big, it's a big, it's a big issue. I think. Well, yeah. I mean, I think what you're touching on there and, um, you know maybe we're slightly getting ahead of ourselves, but at any rate, you know, what you're touching on there, you talked about, you know, there's certain features of the film, which are not so remarkable. Like for example, yeah. The idea of like, um, the, the,
00:11:56
Speaker
the the artificial creation kind of rising up, rebelling. And the fact that the if the bad man Roy looked like a Nazi, it's like it's always the same. yeah but but the But you're kind of hitting on here when it comes to the issue of like, basically, you're not sure whether Deckard Harrison Ford, who's you know supposed to be hunting the replicants. You're not really sure whether he himself is actually replicant. think that the big issue here is that René Descartes, in his book, when you read it carefully, you discover that he himself wasn't sure.
00:12:32
Speaker
he has this part in which he asks, who I am? like he he is not sure whether he is a human being. So you know in that sense,
00:12:44
Speaker
You know, but what, what, what, what makes us human? The, the, the, the, the motto of this company of, of who made all the androids are too human, uh, all too human away.
00:13:00
Speaker
Uh, like, uh, more human than human, more humans than human. It's like, it's referenced to Nietzsche in a way. Uh, So the question is what does it mean to be human in this current age, this technological age?
00:13:17
Speaker
ah It seems like a decision. Don't think in my genes or something. Yeah. So, I mean, in terms of some of its remarkable features, you know, I just would mention, like, it kind of redefined the sci-fi genre because it's because it's kind of a slower, darker,
00:13:37
Speaker
obviously kind of philosophical and it's kind of a meditative movie. And so that's, you know, in that sense, like the best movie for me, like I have this whole book about Kubrick's book, 2001, Space Oddity. in that book,
00:13:54
Speaker
so in that book is there is two two hour and i hour and a half and there is 17 minutes of talking. It's always silent. So he's going back and forth with Kubrick and he also was in a direct dialogue with Kubrick. So in that sense, also the beginning the opening scene of the movie, it's like Kubrick, completely Kubrick.
00:14:17
Speaker
So this in a way, silence is silent it's not about the silence. The silence is important. because it gives you time to hear the back, the back, like like like ah the the noises in in the background.
00:14:30
Speaker
There is never silence. Like in Kubrick movies, in the space, there is this total silence. But in over like in in in in in this movie, there's all these these sounds of electronics machines.
00:14:44
Speaker
Always. So, and in a way, this is what actually, this is the feature who, that make this movie as a movie. I'm not talking about philosophy now, a ah great movie, the background of the city, the city is like, you know, if you, if you, if you was the soprano, so it's, of course, Tony is, is the, male is the main character.
00:15:08
Speaker
But if, if you, uh,
00:15:12
Speaker
There is this... ah Wait a minute. i will Wait a minute.
00:15:19
Speaker
Wait a minute. So if you're if you're watching The Wire, for example, yeah? So the main character of The Wire yeah and yeah is is actually Baltimore.
00:15:32
Speaker
So in here again, the it's it's the main, for me, the like the real hero, the main issue of the of of the story of this movie is actually this Los Angeles.
00:15:43
Speaker
It's the city. It's like this endless city. This is the place where he is really he'ss he's really taking everything a step forward. he's I think he's in his mind, he saw, are you familiar with the beginning of Taxi Driver?
00:16:01
Speaker
Yeah. This like really dirt dirty New York. So he he had this, he had this thing, this picture in his, in his, in his back of his, of his head.
00:16:12
Speaker
That's fascinating. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely like the city in this film is is very overwhelming. It's really um sort of confronting you on a sensory level in terms of, like you said, the you know the the noise, the constant rain, the noise, the neon, the crowding. so you know it's It's amazing because all the characters...
00:16:36
Speaker
Ford, for example, the it did the the the the main character. As an actor, he didn't understand anything about the movie.
00:16:47
Speaker
He couldn't understand what actually he's doing because it was it was without the background. And then he took the background as a producer in It was in the studio. So in a way, if you want, this movie is also about the importance of the producer.
00:17:07
Speaker
the character couldn't understand what they actually did doing in the movie. It is amazing because it was so disconnected. And it's actually very important because the figure always feels that they are not at home in the movie.
00:17:24
Speaker
Everybody, it's this uncanny feeling, everybody feels strange stranger, the androids at home. but but the androids feel at home their parts They are part of this because they are direct direct outcome of the technological ah ah mode of being in a way.
00:17:48
Speaker
I know this interview going all like, I'm sorry, it's always like that with me. I'm just going all all direction together, I know. No, it's good. It's good. I mean, your great basically, you're bringing up one of you know the key ideas in in your work, as far as I can tell, if you're reading of Blade Runner, this idea that actually the replicants are more at home in this technological ghetto than the human beings are.
Philosophical Themes and Technology
00:18:17
Speaker
and And actually, this is the moment, if you would allow me. You know, it's very... Heidegger always always was you know he was arrogant. He was very about himself.
00:18:30
Speaker
it was all about it it was It was always all about him. And he always said, the I'm still waiting for for the philosopher to actually read me.
00:18:42
Speaker
And, you know, I must say that, you know, as a Jew, it's easy for me to say it because, you know, Heidegger was a Nazi and all these stories. So for me, it's easy to say that Heidegger actually is is really an amazing philosopher. And actually I agree with him that we are still waiting for the one who actually to read him properly.
00:19:01
Speaker
ah So it's difficult for me to say, it but I think it's true. but so So Scott, I think, actually read it. He actually understood Heidegger, even even if he never heard about about Heidegger.
00:19:13
Speaker
Because there is always always this Heidegger, in there is the early Heidegger of being in time of 27, and then there is the later Heidegger of the question about technology in 54.
00:19:26
Speaker
and in in in in in in fifty four And there is always this talking about this. Those are different kinds of figures. This, those are different kinds of philosophy.
00:19:38
Speaker
I'm not, I'm not going into the ethics issue. You like it was early Heidegger and then the Nazi, nevermind. In, in, in, in the later Heidegger, he's insist that we need uh, different, like to, to differentiate it between tools and,
00:19:57
Speaker
And technology with a capital T. So tools is like all these machines we are using, but this is actually, it is not technology. And if we will talk about tools, we will not understand what technology is. Technology is like, in a way, technology.
00:20:15
Speaker
There is logic. There is some kind of logic for to to to this technology. This technology, in a way, it's a gestalt. It's like a way of... seeing the world, like if you when i I am unable to see nature around me and to see everything in terms of total efficiency, including human being, i'm I feel I feel like I'm in a technological mode of being. Okay, so technological mode of being is not tools.
00:20:48
Speaker
it's a way of being thrown into the world. Okay. So in that sense, and everybody like in a way, except this, this, this is the Gary on concept, butri this god ah but but, but, but, but really Scott say, no, the, you can, and you can, if you are,
00:21:09
Speaker
In a way, you say each kind of technological mode of being has his... It's but it's possible to ah to identify different kind of tools that are a strongly associated with technological mode of being.
00:21:25
Speaker
So actually, the replicants, the androids, are the pure result of the techno-scientific mode of being. Okay, yeah you know there there is this this this moment in which he's he's he's winning us in chess.
00:21:43
Speaker
Roy, the android. So he this in a way he's a genius already. He has this ah endless IQ, if you like, or whatever. He's very smart.
00:21:55
Speaker
ah But in in in in a way he's the only one who who has the ability to feel at home within within this environment which become already total technological environment. There is only two times in the movie, twice you can see nature.
00:22:17
Speaker
This is actually amazing. You know, you should actually in the movie, it's more obvious that it's it's it's about It's like I'm dreaming to have a ship which is real, but i'm i'm i have this I have this ship which is actually an android.
00:22:33
Speaker
So back to the movie, there is ah in in in in the in the first scene, there is the light, there is a... wait a minute, there is and yeah The first scene is amazing in this movie. You're kind of like, are are are you kind of like you're high above yeah drifting over the city and you're seeing these like plumes of fire. so and there there is a lightning.
00:23:03
Speaker
okay There is a lighting. So this is like in a way, sales this is very important. So this is the first time you see nature and it's always it's like zero. So it's like if you if you really want to understand Scott, so he's telling you, I'm I'm still working in in in the like my structure is the structure of the of of the of the of the, uh, of, of the Greek myth, like Zeus.
00:23:29
Speaker
So this lighting say, yeah, we are still in this framework. I'm in the Western world. Okay. So this is the beginning of the Western culture. Yeah. Zeus and, and, and all this myth.
00:23:40
Speaker
And the second time, is is in in the test, which which and the card, there is this meeting between the card and Rachel, and Rachel needs to go the Voight-Campff test.
00:23:56
Speaker
and The test that they use to determine whether someone is a replicant or... a human and Tyrell the kind of the the big boss of this whole world yeah he has Deckard do the boy comp test on Rachel right yeah so in the test there is the because he's in those towers this is the only place in the city that you can can actually see sun it's all polluted but it's it's very high so there there is this sunset and ask yeah And he asked him to
00:24:37
Speaker
to hide the sun. ah to to take on to take off the the the curtain you know in order to to hide the sun Right. So this is really important. There is only two times you can see the nature.
00:24:52
Speaker
The first time is the light the lighting, which is not exactly nature because is already a result of the polluted city. I i will get to that moment in a moment. And there is the sun, but the sun is is like preventing from the technology to work.
00:25:09
Speaker
This is a brilliant moment Of really Scott. Oh, so you need to hide nature for technology to work is what you're saying? What technology actually do. And this is very important. This is a Scott's brilliant insight.
00:25:24
Speaker
What technology wants, in a way, wants. It's very difficult to technology wants. You know, it's it's not an entity, but in a way. What technology does is replacing nature with technology, with tools.
00:25:42
Speaker
And actually, the one thing that the one thing that actually prevents technology from ah ah full like from ah ah ah in a way yeah like fully dominating and taking control of everything? Yeah, is nature.
00:26:03
Speaker
So the sun is is still a problem. The water is still a problem. But, and this is the big issue, technology, and this is the the real thing technology doing. If you would ask me one thing that technology really doing, and and this is the reason really Scott is a philosopher, it's replacing nature with tools, but ah but we we still feel that we are, nevertheless, we feel that we are in the world, that we're seeing nature.
00:26:30
Speaker
For example, we are in the lab and we're sure that we are doing experiments with nature. No, we are in the lab. This is not nature. No, in Israel, for example, in a way you're going to see nature, but it's never nature. There is always this, ah in a way, yeah it's called... the
00:26:53
Speaker
reserved in a way. It's like a reserved place of nature. Yeah, nature reserve. Yeah. yeah It's kind of like a um Yeah, like like a national park in the US. So it's not really a nature.
00:27:05
Speaker
You're going to a national park, you're paying, you have this God and whatever. And, you know, in Israel, you think you're seeing in the sky ah ah eagles, but all the eagles now in Israel are being recovered. that they They are taking the eggs to another place, you know, and they and they help them to ah to ah to, you know, in a way...
00:27:29
Speaker
all all the all the In the end of the day, all the eagles you're seeing in the sky are made by technology. yeah So in in a way, you think you you're watching nature, but you lost the ability to do it.
00:27:46
Speaker
And this is really a big issue, which Scott takes directly from Heidegger, I think. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so so let me try to echo this a little bit. So it's kind of like... You know, on the one hand, you're saying this, this Heidegger in point, technology, it's not just a bunch of tools, it's not just a bunch of devices. It's actually a way, a mode of revealing, a way of sort of inhabiting and existence. It's more than that. As long as if you're looking at tools, you will never understand technology.
00:28:16
Speaker
This is Heidegger. Right. and and then And the idea here is that nature is actually like, isn't it is in it isn't nature for Heidegger sort of like, in fact, it's an older form in which the world showed up. The world used to show up in a different way as sort of like this living independent. It's something we encounter. It's other than us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then um arc sort of with the technological age,
00:28:41
Speaker
now the world shows up differently. we we don't It's not living, independent, something we encounter as transcending us. Now it's like measurable, controllable, it's all just about being a resource. Yeah, for Israel, for example, we use all the rivers to do electricity to make electricity, And if you go into the beach, it could be like an area of military or area of electricity or area of taking ah the salty water and make it into a sweet water or a place for hotels.
00:29:11
Speaker
And there is this small beach which called natural beach, like two kilometers, something like that. And yeah, so this is like, we are looking... ah it's about we we we are observing nature and seeing actually as a resource.
00:29:31
Speaker
Yeah, and so there's this illusion basically that we think we're still encountering nature in certain contexts, but actually it's like this highly processed, controlled environment. And and yeah and and if you'd like just one one more comment,
00:29:46
Speaker
this revolutionary shift actually accoued before the scientific revolution for Heidegger. But this is is a whole new topic. But it's very important that this this shift ah for Heidegger is before the scientific revolution. Because science is a is a way is is in a way or an outcome of the of already the technological mode of being.
00:30:11
Speaker
It's not applying, it's not like applying technology. It's not like science is applied technology in a way. Technology is primary over science. Yeah. So I was just thinking with Blade Runner, this kind of explains that like, you know, there's no real animals, right? In Blade Runner? Like, isn't it just, it's always like artificial light environment, very synthetic. There's all these like fake animals that are around. Yeah. The old with the red Yeah.
00:30:42
Speaker
oh yeah Oh, how do you say it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's the um the snake that... yeah So one of the replicants that Deckard retires, or aka kills, is...
00:30:56
Speaker
She's like, i don't know, how do you describe her? She's like night show. She's actually, it's once a again, it's another myth because she's, it's of course, she's Chava from the Jewish, from the Bible.
00:31:10
Speaker
There is Adam and Chava. Oh yeah, yeah. And the Chava and the snake. So this is once again another myth. ah Yeah, that's a that's a cute clear case where the... Because they they even... It's even explicit in the dialogue. They mention something about the the snake that first...
00:31:26
Speaker
Yeah. Lead man astray. I can't remember. But anyway, the snake that she uses in her show is not a real snake. It's a, ah it's a, it's fake artificial snake. And in in general, like the whole, this whole world is populated by a fake animal. I think the real issue over there, that she's in a way, in a way, she's a sex robot in a way. Yeah.
00:31:47
Speaker
It's difficult to, she's actually, this is her goal. She's a killer and a sex robot. ah Uh, so in a way, I see really Scott want to say something much deeper about sexuality in this age, which become mechanical as well.
00:32:04
Speaker
Like the snake, if you think about the snake as a symbol for sexuality, it's all in a technological age. It's all mechanical. This is like another very important insight of really Scott.
00:32:20
Speaker
it's in in In a way, it this is very Foucault kind of insight. I think he was influenced by Foucault.
00:32:29
Speaker
Yeah, so maybe we could also just get out on the table this idea that that you um that you have in your work that, in a way, Ridley Scott is a philosopher, right?
00:32:42
Speaker
through this film or like this film is doing philosophy somehow. Yeah. So, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm a comment on that or yeah I'm not in the field of, uh, there is this field of, uh, cinema and philosophy. I'm, I'm, I would not argue that any kind of, or like all the, the, all, there are these kinds of movies, like the metrics, which seems as if they have philosophy, but it's, it's like in terms of philosophy is bullshit. It's simply a nice movie.
00:33:07
Speaker
But I don't think really Scott so thoughtto is yeah thought yeah I'm doing philosophy. But I think that because Heidegger has this very important ah the and essay about the age of picture, the age of the camera. Age of the world picture, yeah. yeah So in this in this article, he actually says that
00:33:37
Speaker
We are living in the age in which representation controls everything. ah In a way, since Aplaton, the world has been replaced with a representation, which goes back to the notion that actually the world has been replaced by technology.
00:33:58
Speaker
We are replacing the world with representations.
00:34:02
Speaker
And so in movies playing a very important role over there. So in a way, I think that if, if the, like in the, in the, kub in the Kubrick movie, in in, in, in, in the, in the mechanical orange, I am not, I'm not, I'm not sure this is the the name.
00:34:20
Speaker
at a Clockwork orange. Yeah. Yeah. So in the end you you have this scene in which you see the eyes completely open, being held open. And you actually say, you could think that this is the the eye from the first thing of, of, of Blade Runner, but nevermind.
00:34:36
Speaker
So this is like to really understand that we are in the age and risk in which cinema could actually to be philosophy, but it's not my field.
00:34:52
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting. So it's like, Philosophy, it's it's like the it's like the most dangerous medium in the way because it's like it's it's the it's the medium by which representation is taking over. It's like a prime medium where the representation sort of exactly taking over the world. So it would be nice if that something within that medium could itself like push back against that process.
Filmmakers as Modern Prophets
00:35:22
Speaker
And and this is like an example of that maybe or something. yeah And just a small comment, in my last book, in my last in the last proof, you know you receive it before publication. And I had this note, I don't know why, but I did it.
00:35:37
Speaker
And wrote, Heidegger is not a philosopher. He's actually, ah he's actually with a
00:35:46
Speaker
He's actually a prophet. so And I think Kubrick and Ridley Scott are more like Hobart or like are more like prophets. They are not doing cinema. They're not doing philosophy.
00:35:59
Speaker
they actually doing they They are prophets of the age, like Heidegger, like Kafka.
00:36:08
Speaker
Yeah, that seems fun. Yeah, because it's like there's an there's an element of critique And, yeah um, so, uh, sorry, i wanted to bring up something. um Well, maybe we could talk about three of the characters and because I'm just thinking, you know, in your in your work, you kind of you kind of do a care you kind of focus in on... Well, first, like we've already been talking about, you kind of you do ah you talk a lot about the city itself, the environment itself in which ah Blade Runner occurs. So Los Angeles, 2019.
00:36:41
Speaker
um So actually, I want to say something about it because this is this is a big issue. yeah los and the the The weather is like is more like it is more like it looks more like Tokyo, Los Angeles.
00:36:54
Speaker
The weather over in Los Angeles already changed completely. it's It's a weather of of of Thailand or whatever. It's it's not not a weather in the US. And it's all like big Chinatown. So the city is being polluted completely.
00:37:12
Speaker
and the environment has been changed completely because of the technological... ah You know, we can see... There's trash everywhere, right? Yeah. We actually can see it in front of of our eyes today. you know We are changing the environment in ah and and and we make it we we actually ruin this place. you know it's It's quite obvious ah already. so So in that sense, Los Angeles is as is a city without an end. Los Angeles is all over the world.
00:37:44
Speaker
And year 2019, it's like over the corner. It could be tomorrow. It could be in two years from now. It's, it's, it's, it's no, it's, it's, it's might be already been, but I'm not sure, but like 2019 say it could happen every moment.
Roy Batty's Unique Understanding
00:38:05
Speaker
Uh, so yeah, with that comment to the character, I think that ah i will I will go to ah I would like to talk about Roy, which is the android, which is the leader of the android. Right. Yeah, he's the leader. He's the intense, he's charismatic leader yeah of the replicants. He's kind of leading this rebellious uprising.
00:38:30
Speaker
Yeah, actually, you know, he's the actually the only character who understood the movie. And... like while Like while it was occurring the... What was his name? Rutger Hauer? Yeah, he's a German.
00:38:43
Speaker
Yeah. And the last thing actually he it is his is it is his own word. It's like he he he understood it. it's it it it It wasn't in the script or something.
00:38:55
Speaker
ah So right, yeah, he he's in a way he's the leader. And after the card already killed everybody, Uh, they like, it's like, it's like, like the two of them.
00:39:10
Speaker
And here are the, the, the very crucial moment because you know, they need, they, they, they live for four years and Roy Betty's four years have been over and you can see his, his, his fingers start to, ah like to scramble and he's has this difficulty to control himself already.
00:39:35
Speaker
But he he understands something. ah He has this meeting a a few minutes before that thing. He has this meeting with Sheldon Tyrell.
00:39:47
Speaker
In a way, his father. Right. The inventor. So the inventor of all these androids, yeah um it and and he asked Roy ends up finding him, confronting him, yeah because he he's demanding from in the inventor. He wants more life. He doesn't want to yeah die after four years. This movie has a lot lot there is a ah a lot of of of ah of variation. so um in In one variation, he says, I want more life, fucker.
00:40:15
Speaker
In one, he says, I want more life, father. so Uh, so he asked for more life, but then Sheldon, which is actually, he's the big philosopher in the movie says, it's not about how much you live, but how you actually, how you live.
00:40:32
Speaker
It's about, he talking about the quality of life. Yeah. About the intensity of life, about the light, about, about the brightness of the light. And he actually... In a movie with no light, basically. It's like such a dark movie. So in a way, you can say, yeah, so he lived four years and we lived 40 years or 80s. It doesn't matter.
00:40:56
Speaker
the the The most important thing that it has a limit. It could be four years, could be 10 years, could be 50, 100. But life needs to end. So he understands, Roy, that it's not it is not about...
00:41:13
Speaker
how much time you you have in this life. It's about what what are you doing with this time? So in a way, this is exactly Heideggerian kind of shift. He's shifting from denying death, fighting death, to accepting it.
00:41:29
Speaker
Heidegger, most important notion, early Heidegger of being in time, most important notion is being toward death. Death, if we want to be really free, you know, an authentic way, yeah we need to accept that we are, that we that our life has an end.
00:41:47
Speaker
need to accept it, and then we are free toward our death. As long as we are we are denying it, we are part of the day. the day this is I'm the dust man in a way. Yeah, yeah. So this is like, yeah, this is kind of that key Heideggerian notion where, yeah like being authentic for Heidegger is something like living in awareness of your genuine condition. So that means living in awareness of mortality.
00:42:15
Speaker
And then I guess like with later Hider, it would be like part of being aware of your condition would be realizing that you're like trapped in this technological world. And then part of authenticity, right? Isn't it also kind of like you need to be active, you need to take ownership of your life and like not just passively...
00:42:35
Speaker
absorb like pre-given you know what Anyway, something like that. Yeah, in a way. so ah So in a way he understand it.
00:42:48
Speaker
if Roy does. Are you saying Roy or Roy? so all right So do you think, let me ask this question. Sorry to interrupt you, but insofar as Roy is like trying to extend his life, he's, he's, he's, you know, he's going back to the father, to his creator, demanding that his life be extended.
00:43:11
Speaker
Is that an authentic move or is that like a sign? Okay. That's not. Okay. Okay. And how do we know it? Because you know once once he's entered the the room of of sherdon of Sheldon Tyrell, he said, i accept to see you sooner. like This is part of the role. Yeah, of course. you yeah You have been programmed in order to be here.
00:43:30
Speaker
so it's not So this is all boring stuff, in a way, he said. Okay, this is fascinating. because This is one of the most interesting things about your reading of Blade Runner, is like the connection to Oedipus here, where it's like Yeah, this is another myth. we we are being This is the the reason the book begins with the lightning. We are still in the metaphysics of of the the the Greek myth.
00:43:57
Speaker
So, of course, the eyes and the Oedipus, it's all over it's all there. all of you know This movie is a combination of Freud, Heidegger, and Descartes, in a way. But, but yeah, he he's just... you know In this meeting, yeah actually...
00:44:15
Speaker
And I would say something which is going to be quite tricky. So in a way, roy understand that his mission is... this is a big This is a big moment in this talk. Sorry for being such a dramatic.
00:44:29
Speaker
That he has a goal. And the goal is not killing Roy the card. It's not killing the card. Roy's mission is not killing the card. It's actually...
00:44:44
Speaker
get ah allow the card to be the father of the next generation to to get him free so in the last scene he can kill the card but he's not doing it in that moment ah and and he's not killing him for very good reason because the card is actually an android like Rachel who is not knowing it.
00:45:17
Speaker
And his mission, and I think he's being programmed from the first first moment. This is his mission.
Deckard's Choice: Android or Human?
00:45:24
Speaker
The mission is the card. So the card doesn't know he's an android.
00:45:30
Speaker
And you know what? It might be that he's not an android. He might be a human being, but he might be an android. So Roy's mission is to allow is first to to to to help Descartes to look about Android yeah with with as as as friends in in an intimate way. you know He is the lover of Rachel. He's doing love with Rachel.
00:45:59
Speaker
So he has been felt in love with an Android. So he might be an android. So the the next step is actually to understand. And this is this is the reason that Scott is ah is a big philosopher. Descartes needs to understand that he that he is not an android and he is not a man. He needs to choose.
00:46:23
Speaker
He needs to choose what he actually is. Wow. so Okay, so we got to we got to break this down a little bit so And this is our mission as This is a big claim. so This is our mission as well today.
00:46:36
Speaker
So are you saying that
00:46:41
Speaker
the the goal of Tyrell when he created Roy was for him to
00:46:50
Speaker
Like Roy was kind of meant to target Deckard. in order you but In order for him to do it in in the right way, needs to get out of him of his program.
00:47:04
Speaker
In a way, he has been programmed to do it. But in order to do it properly, he actually needs to understand something about this. needs to go through a process.
00:47:19
Speaker
so but So would you say that that process that he needs to go to through? so so So you're saying, and I mean, the way I'm thinking about is like you're almost saying that Roy needs to like lead Deckard through a type of initiation or trial, almost like a ritual.
00:47:35
Speaker
It's all about the card. the only the The only character really important in this movie is the card. They're all in a way, the drama is in a way, if you like, say the drama is inside the world of if you're talking in Freudian kind of terms, it's inside the world of the card.
00:47:53
Speaker
Everybody. so Yeah. And so like the hunt is other than the the the hunt that's really famous at the end the film. It's a waste of time. Why Roy need to be hunted if he's going to be killed by himself in about 10, 15 minutes.
00:48:13
Speaker
Think about it. It's a waste of time. Okay. And so are you saying too that like Tyrell is kind of in a hidden way, this is what he ultimately desires from? It's not in a hidden way. So this is actually, okay, this is, I think, in this is the most complicated issue, ah a place in my in my paper, and I think the most important.
00:48:38
Speaker
If you are obeying to the Greek mythology, you You know, the big issue in the mised mythology is about fate. It's about your ability to to to break out of your fate.
00:48:55
Speaker
So Roy, is indeed all the characters have the effect, and the question is whether Roy breaking out of his fate, or but or or it could be that he was also programmed to arrive to this scene to the car. Yeah, right. because because Because your initial reading of the film, the superficial reading is, when he so another famous moment in the film is that Deckard, he's hunting Roy. He's supposed to kill Roy. But of course, Roy is totally in charge of the situation.
00:49:26
Speaker
Deckard has no real chance to kill Roy. and in And basically, at any rate though, Roy decides to save Deckard. Deckard falls from the building, but instead of letting him fall, Roy saves him. And what you think when you're watching it is, oh, this is Roy sort of taking charge of his own. He's not following the script anymore because yeah he was designed to be a killer. But look, he's actually more compassionate than human than human beings.
00:49:56
Speaker
He's like transcending his own script. But I think aren't you saying we know that that's actually mission fulfillment? Like when he grabs him, that was the mission was to educate Deckard through this trial.
00:50:09
Speaker
Exactly.
00:50:13
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. i did I definitely didn't. I didn't understand the movie either. If that's if that's right. Okay. Actually, I'm, you know, I'm not sure that this This is a beautiful thing. I'm not sure really Scott understood it as well.
00:50:33
Speaker
But if you're really obeying, to if you're really thinking in terms of of the Greek mythology, there there isn't a ah reason to think that he's not like doing what he actually obeyed.
00:50:45
Speaker
Even if he, you know, it's like Spinoza, you are sure that you are free, but you are not free at all. But but you know the only the only character who is... It's all like mirrors for the card.
00:51:00
Speaker
And in a way, the movie, for me, happening... You know, everybody familiar or heard about Descartes' famous night with three dreams, Olympic dreams.
00:51:14
Speaker
All the Western philosophy has been born from this night of Descartes being in Germany, suffering from anxiety and have these nightmares.
00:51:25
Speaker
Yeah, this is very famous night. So in a way, the movie Los Angeles is actually the atmosphere at the atmosphere of these nightmares. And all the figures over there are figures in this in this dream.
00:51:41
Speaker
And Descartes is simply Descartes. And he needs to transform, to have some kind of transformation. Like in a way to
00:51:55
Speaker
to understand that the Descartes philosophy is a dead end.
00:52:07
Speaker
ah so this it says like a okay so it it's um yeah So it's like an implicit critique of Descartes insofar as we're... Deckard is really Descartes and Deckard needs to go through this trial initiation at the hands of Roy Batty in order to achieve
00:52:37
Speaker
Is it...
00:52:40
Speaker
yeah What is Descartes fundamentally lacking? Or what is Deckard fundamentally lacking prior to his initiation ritual? He's too sure that he's human being. but if Okay. Excess of certainty. But if you're looking about the final version of the movie, he has this moment in which he's falling asleep and he sees this honeycomb. He's seeing this
00:53:06
Speaker
the this the unicorn. he's The unicorn of the origami thing that yeah Gaff makes. But in the last version of the movie, he's falling asleep on the piano and he has this vision of unicorn.
00:53:19
Speaker
This movie has a lot of version, but the 2007 version, which is the official version, which is Scott's version, he's feeling asleep on the piano and he has this dream or vision of unicorn.
00:53:33
Speaker
And the unicorn is ah is a symbol of the Android. So in a way, And his picture is very similar to the picture of Rachel. So you can say that he's from the same, he's simply the same model of Rachel. So he's an android who is who is not familiar, like he doesn't know that he's an android.
00:53:55
Speaker
Okay? So, but this is the moment which Ridley Scott's really doing great philosophy. It is for him to decide what he is Is he ah android or a human being? Or it might be some kind of new kind of combination version.
00:54:14
Speaker
I don't know.
00:54:17
Speaker
ah It is for him to decide.
00:54:23
Speaker
so So yeah, what he doesn't need is more certainty. What he needs ah is to kind of accept uncertainty and he needs to make ah like a kind of fundamental decision or something. Okay, so I'm... Well, yeah.
00:54:47
Speaker
Certainty, it's in a way fixation. you know Uncertainty, it's it's freedom. You know, i can i can i know i am' i can testify about myself. I'm reading all day long and Each time I'm reading a new great book, I'm completely confused.
00:55:09
Speaker
Everything is breaking apart in my, like inside. And I say, yeah, that is the meaning of being free. I'm reading and I'm not sure. yeah In that moment, you know, I'm buying it tomorrow. I'll buy another thing. Like I'm completely, i i don't have any fixation about any kind of opinion, prove nothing. I'm completely open to all kinds of possibilities.
00:55:40
Speaker
And this is actually, if you're reading, I'm teaching Descartes for over 20 years. And if you're reading his book, the introduction, like this is this is the real journey he's describing.
00:55:56
Speaker
This inner journey of like falling apart. This is doing philosophy. Doing philosophy is falling apart each day, each and every day, falling apart completely to the most fundamental elements.
00:56:10
Speaker
Yeah. And the movie, and the movie especially Los Angeles, she's shaking you off.
00:56:19
Speaker
You're being shaken. Yeah. There's various, yeah, there's various instances of kind of breakdowns or shakedowns or being falling apart in the movie. You know, it's like, Rachel, her identity breaks down. So that's so Rachel is an android who thinks she's a human and then she comes to realize partly due to the investigative probing of Becker. But how do you know that she's really an android? Because Sheldon Terrell has told so?
00:56:50
Speaker
How do you know?
00:56:54
Speaker
How do we know? Isn't it he he realizes that
00:57:04
Speaker
Well, doesn't she fail the Voight-Kampff test? She, you know, but, but, but, you know, he's, Sheldon Tyrell asked Roy, he's asking the card a very good question.
00:57:16
Speaker
Did you, did you, did you ever check if a human being is, is, is like, you know, if, is is is it possible that I will fail in this, in this test?
00:57:26
Speaker
The answer is yes. You know, he asked, I want to see a negative, I want to see a positive, m So how do you know that this test is working about humans? So doubt is cast on the test itself.
00:57:40
Speaker
Yeah. Everything has been doubted completely. Yeah. I want to, if we are toward the end, i think. yeah Yeah. I want to actually end with what I said, what i I found the most important thing in the movie, if I may.
00:57:58
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Please. There is this ah ah
00:58:06
Speaker
this moment in which the car taking a picture and he's using this machine.
00:58:15
Speaker
Okay, in order to see what actually there is inside the the picture. think I sent you, are you familiar with that scene? you're familiar with that scene yeah Yeah, he's like using this like machine where he can like he he'll like give it voice commands and then it'll focus in. and like and so He's he's like probing this picture. He's investigating. the and The picture is a picture supposedly of Rachel's childhood.
00:58:43
Speaker
It's like a childhood No, it's's it's actually, it's it's it's ah it's um it's a picture from, for and and and there is this Leon Android who has been died it been murdered by Rachel.
00:58:54
Speaker
Rachel helped the car and she killed Leon. And in the house in in in his house, they found this picture. And in the picture, there is Roy. And Roy is looking ah on on on the other room.
00:59:06
Speaker
And the car using this machine. And he's doing a trick, at some kind of trick. and is able to see Zora. Zora is the woman with the snake.
00:59:20
Speaker
Are you with me? Yeah, yeah, i And based this movie, he's identifying her. But if you're looking on that picture, the actor is not Zora. He's an anonymous kind of actor.
00:59:38
Speaker
ba And the real message i notice isd that okay yeah and the real method of Scott, that but that if you will rely on on representation, the representation are always lying.
00:59:51
Speaker
If you go into the first scene and you're seeing that the eye of Leon in the Voikov machine is green, but his eyes are actually blue.
01:00:06
Speaker
All those technology changing reality and they make representation which are disconnected from reality.
01:00:16
Speaker
This is the big issue. If you're looking now today about Facebook, for example, the problem that Facebook always gives you to see what you want. They give you more than what you want.
01:00:28
Speaker
and And like today, as ah there was there was a paper from Stanford or something like that researcher who actually proved that that the AI techniques always give you what you want to hear. They give you more than you, like more you.
01:00:45
Speaker
like they They help you to believe in yourself in a way too much. Those representations are always lies. This is, for me, the most important message of the of the movie.
Film's Key Message on Reality
01:00:58
Speaker
and this is and and and and And the way Descartes looking for Zora in this picture. And he actually s seeing another woman. It's not Zora. But for him, it's Zora.
01:01:10
Speaker
So this is the big lie. I know it's a bit complicated, but... Well, but but the idea that representation is is not revealing reality, the idea that it's kind of distorting it, yeah replacing it, yeah that makes sense. and then And then the photo analysis scene, you know it's like Rick Deckard, yeah, he's zooming in, he's enhancing, he's trying to look inside the image, he's trying to get like a deeper handle on reality. yeah But it turns out that the representation...
01:01:43
Speaker
It's not really helping him encounter the real world. no is that he's just In a way, he said, I think he's saying Zora, but if you're looking about the picture, it's not Zora. It's anonymous character. Yeah.
01:01:55
Speaker
It's not Zora. It's someone else.
01:02:01
Speaker
So,
01:02:05
Speaker
so i mean So I guess this we could we could kind of close out with this kind of idea. this The idea is that this is how we need to think about technology. Technology, it's not just a tool that mediates our relationship to reality. it's It's shaping, it's possibly replacing.
01:02:29
Speaker
Yeah, but the the truth is we are sure that we are seeing reality. but It has nothing to do with reality.
01:02:38
Speaker
This sounds like, um isn't this the kind of like, what's his name? Jean-Audriard? Yeah, of course, but he's on going back to Heidegger. Yeah. Okay. so we're So we're just, yeah.
01:02:50
Speaker
Okay. um
01:03:02
Speaker
So yeah, you think that's that's the deepest... layer of the film and it ultimately that layer of the film is echoing Heidegger. Exactly.
01:03:20
Speaker
um Well, this this has been a great discussion. I have to say that, yeah, ah there's there' is more going on in Blade Runner than I realized. It's called, by the way, the Esper Machine.
01:03:34
Speaker
What's that? It's called the Esper machine, by the way. Oh, that's the machine that Deckard uses in Descartes or Deckard.
01:03:47
Speaker
dick I think this is the best way to finish the interview. Perfect.