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#12 Elyakim Kislev: Relationships 5.0
57 Plays1 month ago
Elyakim Kislev is a senior lecturer in the School of Public Policy and Governance at the Hebrew University; there he specializes in relationships, technology, loneliness, and singles studies. Today we’ll be discussing his book Relationships 5.0: How AI, VR, and Robots Will Reshape Our Emotional Lives.
Some of the topics we discuss are the effect of technology on relationships throughout human history, the potential for meeting human relational needs through technology, and the challenge that emerging technologies pose on our existing forms of moral education—among many other topics. We hope you enjoy the conversation as much as we did.
For more info on the show, please visit ethicscircle.org.
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Transcript
Introduction to Relationships 5.0 with Elia Kim Kislev
00:00:17
Speaker
Hi everyone, and welcome to the A-Tech Podcast. This is Roberto Garcia. Today, I'm interviewing Elia Kim Kislev. Elia Kim Kislev is a senior lecturer in the School of Public Policy and Governance at the Hebrew University. And there, he specializes in relationships, technology, loneliness, and singles studies. Today, we'll be discussing his book Relationships 5.0.
00:00:43
Speaker
how AI, VR, and robots will reshape our emotional lives.
Technology's Influence on Values and Relationships
00:00:49
Speaker
Elliot Kim, Kislib, welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me. Okay, so Elliot Kim, we were chatting just before we started recording, and we were talking about who listens to this show. And so let me begin by prefacing that I, of course, come from a philosophy background. And in the field of philosophy, well,
00:01:12
Speaker
You can basically find philosophers who advocate almost any position on um and disagree about almost any topic. But my point here is that some philosophers might feel some resistance to the idea that technology shapes us, maybe in particular our values in any definitive way. But of course, from a sociology background, ah you see all the data and you say, well, this is absolutely the case, right? so How about we begin with this it will inevitably be the case that new technology will reshape our our future you know relationships but.
00:01:49
Speaker
how What evidence brought you to believe that technology can reshape relationships? so In your book, you talk about past forms of relationships, 1.0 through 4.0. Maybe let's begin by talking about these past effects of technology on relationships. so Can you begin by telling us a little bit about some past forms of relationships?
Evolutionary Stages of Relationships
00:02:12
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So when when I started writing the book, I thought about the future, about relationships 5.0, what I called relationships 5.0. But in order to understand what's going on and what what is going to be, I looked at at the past and I searched for evidence how technology affected us.
00:02:41
Speaker
And if you look back, um so hunting gathering, if we really go early to hunting gathering, you basically understand that hunting and gathering with discoveraging and and fishing is actually a technology, a form of technology, or lack thereof.
00:03:03
Speaker
that brought us to certain conditions. So I started the work with looking at this period and actually most researchers look at this period and see that there is a connection between technology, this kind of primitive, very primitive technologies and our way of living.
00:03:27
Speaker
So just if you think about the way so of hunting, how can you provide many people the meat that you hunt? So it brought us, and this is not me, this is many researchers saying that it brought brought us to live in very small group that can handle hunting and gathering and in more efficient way.
00:03:55
Speaker
If you think just one more example, if you think about finding shelter, so if you don't find shelters to 100, 200 people, what do you do? You go by small group and you find a cave and you find a cliff that can be a shelter for you. And I show in the book really one aspect after another, how this kind of primitive technologies formed our way of living and way of interacting with each other. um Maybe one last example, privacy. If you live in a cave and you cannot build your own home, so privacy is not an issue. so the couple The couplehood, the form of coupleship, the two people
00:04:51
Speaker
um get together to live in one home as usually we see around us is not possible anymore. um And in the book I continue on with another technological revolution, which is known probably to most listeners by the by the name the agricultural revolution. And it's another technology, right? Agriculture is a technology is a form of technology. And It entails living together in intergenerational families. So instead of the tribe, instead of the clan that used to characterize um hunting hunter-gatherers, human beings moved
00:05:40
Speaker
to live around their fields, to move to grow up their livestock. And for this one, to in order to care for the elders and in order to ah care for their fields, they need the intergenerational family. And moreover, in this period, it's the first times, because of this technology of having a property, having a field,
00:06:08
Speaker
ah we we develop the laws of inheritance that determines who owns what and how we passed along the generations, the property we have. And once again, I show a series of ever of of ah pieces of evidence for this way interlinked between technology and our way of interacting with each other. I continue on with the with another technological revolution, the industrial revolution. Let me just jump in here real quick, just so I can kind of ah weave it together for the for the listeners. We have Relations 1.0, which is our hunter-gatherer days. and Here, it's it's mostly like the absence of technology that leads it to be the case that essentially,
00:06:59
Speaker
Personal interest they just are group interest is almost you know no distinction between the the individual and the group big groups right maybe a hundred and
Rise of Individualism in the Information Society
00:07:08
Speaker
fifty people i think is dumbbar's number. And so in this stage, privacy is you know a non-starter. It doesn't make sense to people. And so relationships are basically between yourself and the group. But then the agriculture revolution kind of shrinks down the sphere of of concern a little bit so that we are, instead of our entire group, it is a multi-generational family that is sort of you know the unit of measure for for people, right for relationships.
00:07:38
Speaker
ah So, okay, now the Industrial Revolution happens and we get even more atomized. ah How does that go? Right. So, thanks for clarifying it. I don't want to delve too much into that, um but I really show it systematically a how Every period and every major shift ah in technology, shaped society in a different way. um So if we talk about it the Industrial Revolution, another another um
00:08:12
Speaker
jumping in development of technology. So basically, we moved from the fields to the factories, from rural areas to the cities. And obviously, it shaped our way of living, getting interacting with each other, what they call relationship 3.0. So but basically instead of moving ah living around um the fields and needing this ah division of labor between family members, the multi-generational family members, now we just need one person to work in the factory and usually his or her
00:09:04
Speaker
spouse, partner, work alongside in the factory. The children take um small jobs in the factory and together the nuclear family is born. So after moving from traditional families and it's We don't need to go far to see that. We see now in um developing countries the move from rural areas to urban areas and how it shapes
00:09:41
Speaker
um societies and families. So families, people leave their families behind, the larger families behind, and move to a very small apartment it next to the factory, next to ah the place they they walk in the city, and basically they turn towards the nuclear family and develop their nuclear family.
00:10:06
Speaker
One thing that I really found telling about this transition in in human relationships is that you write that, I mean, I you don't and don't think you word it this way, but this is the time period where a person's home sort of has to be their castle because now there's greater social isolation. You don't see your parents too often. ah You will now move to the city and they're back and you know wherever they are. And so there's just an increased need for the home to be just a little bit of respite from you know the the tumble of the city life and all that.
00:11:01
Speaker
Relationships 4.0 is what we usually think about when we think about modern society. so This is the move to the information society. and Once again, it's a shift in technology. Basically, most people move from the factory to the office.
00:11:25
Speaker
from manufacturing to the service industry. And we see a sharp rise in the percentages where people work in services instead of manufacturing and for sure much more than working in ah basic resources.
00:11:48
Speaker
So right now in the US, we we talk about 80% of the labor force at work in the service industry. um And this is in com comparison to 15, a little bit more in the manufacturing industry, and a few percentage points in basic resources like oil and agriculture.
00:12:16
Speaker
So when we think about the information society and we think about information, then we start to think about pieces of information, about the atomization of society, the the lonely person in the city, that even the nuclear family is not enough because he sits or she sits behind the computer and the expertise is what matters.
00:12:44
Speaker
And it's it's more than just a philosophical idea. Just think about if we think about the shift to the information society, then we need much more education. So people stay in the education system for many more years and they don't have the time, they don't have the resources.
00:13:05
Speaker
And even they don't have the desire to marry or to partner up. So the nuclear family actually goes another through another process of atomization.
Future of Relationships with AI, VR, and Robotics
00:13:18
Speaker
And this is actually where I stopped ah in writing my previous book, Happy Singular, the rising acceptance and celebration of solar living. So around us now,
00:13:31
Speaker
We see many people staying single, go single, choose singlehood ah after marriage, so getting divorced, and so on. And we see a sharp rise in parlay to the information society in singlehood.
00:13:50
Speaker
So these four periods of time led me to think if there is a link such a strong link between technology and society and relationship so in tune in relationships relationship. So if we talk a ah about the clan and then we talk about the multi-generational family and then the nuclear family and then the single person then we might think about the next stage and how this next stage will look like. Right, right. In your book, I remember, I think maybe it's in the preface or something, you mentioned, well, you know, the the the meat of the book will be relationship 5.0. So if you want, you can skip ahead to this. but But of course, I didn't. I know that's a trick. I never skip ahead. I read the entirety of it. And at the end of it, at the end of part one, where you go through relationships 1.0 through 4.0,
00:14:46
Speaker
I thought to myself, this is gold. Please accept eliot kim this bit of a flattery. I love that first part of the book because it really convinces you that technology is playing not even a role, but maybe a predominant role in in shaping our relationships and emotional lives. Absolutely. we are so so i can see I can say to me for myself,
00:15:10
Speaker
I preoccupied many people around me preoccupied with the conception, with the regular notions that we see. What do we see is we accept it as the only option for reality. And in order to um just rattle the board a bit, it just thing to rethink about but bothta our notions, our regular concepts,
00:15:39
Speaker
of ah what relationships might mean. I had to do this journey back to see how technology affected and made different forms of relationships. Great, great. Wonderful. So let's begin then to dive into the main focus of your book, Relationships 5.0.
00:16:05
Speaker
Now, there's all sorts of you know new check out there that will be playing a role in this. And you give some names to them. I'll just mention the names for the listeners here. So you write about the cognitive revolution, the sensorial revolution, how we would be able to feel, use more senses and just maybe our ears and eyes in engaging with technology. And then there's the physical revolution, which has to do with robotics. so Maybe you don't have to you know dive into each one individually but just tell us about all the different technologies paint a picture for the listeners for. What sorts of new developments in the you know technological realm are probably gonna revolutionize relationships yet again.
00:16:50
Speaker
So yeah, at that point, I came to think about what is going to do next, what we what we are going to see next. And in order to understand the revolutions that you just mentioned, let me just go back a bit ah to to the to the book where ah to the previous book i when I wrote about about single people.
00:17:17
Speaker
it's not I'm not going to talk now about single people per se, but... said but When I interviewed people i had single single people, I heard about their needs, and many of them recognized the fact that they are single, they are going to be single, um and some of them even chose to be single, but they needed still needed um some aspects in their life that usually come from relationships.
00:17:53
Speaker
So people told me, I need some someone to have fun with. I need someone to stimulate me intellectually. I need someone to be around me. And some people would say,
00:18:10
Speaker
I don't mind to be single but I think about my future, I think about me in older age and I wonder who will help me when I have mobility issue, when I'm sick, when I'm alone at the hospital.
00:18:28
Speaker
And then I realized when I thought about it so conceptually, we think about three dimensions that people need in their relationships. And this is a bit cynical, and I can i can elaborate about it more. ah But if we think about it, we can at least take apart some aspects that relationships oh provide us with and think about them in isolation. So when you think about it, you think about the cognitive aspect when you interact um on the mind level with another person.
00:19:11
Speaker
Then you think about emotions and being surrounded by another person, not being alone um in the sensorial sense. And in the end, you think about the physical interaction. So if you think about warmth, if you think about ah sexual intercourse, if you think about um physical help in times of need, um this is the the the third aspect. Then I took these three aspects
00:19:49
Speaker
And look again at technology and um it emerging technologies nowadays. And I ask the question, whether we see a major shift in technology like we saw in the past in agriculture and in the industrial revolution and the information revolution, or it's just like a new innovation here and there that affect our life.
00:20:18
Speaker
So if you think we we we think about many developments, we we can think about the quantum computing, 3D
Human-Machine Relationships: Possibilities and Challenges
00:20:27
Speaker
printers,
00:20:30
Speaker
But I wanted to understand um what can change these aspects of relationships. And if we see this triangular, if you want, of cognitive, sensorial and physical revolution, materialized,
00:20:49
Speaker
In the technology in a new technology that we are now facing, maybe we'll have a shift in ah in our relationships as well.
00:21:02
Speaker
so When you think about this free ah they dimension, so yes, we see in cognitive sense in the cognitive sense, we see AI. Artificial intelligence um now is now everywhere, right? I wrote a book um in 2020. AI was was still um a bit hidden. Now it's really everywhere. um But I thought in any case, it's
00:21:32
Speaker
going in this direction, right artificial intelligence. This is what people told me, they want intelligence in their partner. So technology can provide even some of it. not Even if we don't exaggerate in the in the power of technology to provide us everything, ah maybe some of it. And then they continue on and the virtual reality and the extended reality in general, ah mixed reality, augmented reality, provide us with a presence, with a sensorial experience.
00:22:13
Speaker
It's still in early stages for sure, but it's another dimension in technology that is developing. And the third one that actually came out just lately with ah Tesla's announcement opttic with Optimus and Amazon robots and so on. We just started to hear about prototypes. it's even It's even not real product that we can go to the store and buy. And it's still very expensive and we can talk about inequality in these technologies later on. But
00:22:51
Speaker
we already see the revolution starting and physical robots are already a reality and combining together the cognitive evolution with ai the sensor evolution we are in augmented reality and the physical revolution with robots.
00:23:11
Speaker
can at least provide us with a new direction in terms of like of of relationships. And as we saw in the past, my argument is now While we know technology is a matchmaker until now, ah is a form of communication between us, now my argument is that technology becomes the subject itself.
00:23:41
Speaker
ah for love, intimacy, in emotions, ah physical help. So the three evolution brings technology to be the subject of affection in some ways. And we can talk about the way the ways it ah it it operates now and we can operate in in the future. But yes, in some ways, this is the ah subject of relationships.
00:24:09
Speaker
So let me kind of ah give some of what you said back to you and and see if i I got it all down without diving too much into the technology. But let's I guess let me use some readily some technology that might readily come to the listener's mind. So you take a functioning robot right and you add some cognitive components to it. Everyone now is familiar with things like chat GPT, one that can really have a conversation with you and it you know people Apparently um are completely convinced that it is you know, some people at least that are convinced that it is an agent and so you you put Cognitive technology on robotics and you add to that Some sensorial elements maybe be some virtual reality maybe some augmented reality mixed reality um
00:24:59
Speaker
And it will create a fully, basically an environment in which all the senses are engaged and we feel like we're really talking with a a cognitive agent or at least some of those cognitive um things that we require from human beings are present in the machine. And so given all this,
00:25:21
Speaker
it is likely, possible, perhaps even likely, that we will have some sort of relationship with these machines. Did I get all that right? So, what you just described is an utopian and utopian um form of this relationship. So, combining all together in one product so is one thing. What I'm talking about is that the free evolution go in parallel so we can consume and address our needs um from different forms. So once ah once again, think about... Oh, let's start let's start different differently. If we think about
00:26:13
Speaker
common relationships now or what we think about in a so social imagination, we kind we we came to the point that there is a climax where people expect everything from their partner. They think they they expect expect them to be funny, to be attractive, to be responsive emotionally, ah everything.
00:26:39
Speaker
But this is the really the climax of how human beings treat and think of but about relationships. Just think about a few centuries ago, people thought about marriage and relationships as a form of a contract, right? As a form of forming um interaction between groups, between families, between whatever. um When we think about hunter-gatherers, actually there was such a division of labor between ah between people in the clans that some researchers even say in order to ah keep equality in the tribe, in the clan, one person went to hunt and then he gave, usually it was a he, ah he gave to another person the meat
00:27:33
Speaker
to um give others pieces of this meat, so he want the first one, the hunter, won't get all the credit. So there was such a division of labels that they moved responsibility as divided responsibilities with being the clan members. Now, if we go back to Relationships 5.0, so I first talk about addressing our needs through different forms. um So we have a washing machine in our home, we have an a robot a cleaning robot, and we have a ah um other other other products that help us. um
00:28:18
Speaker
so this is This is manufacturing. This is old this is ah all the the the old notions. But if we if we think about this one this this product, then we can start thinking about asking for jokes.
00:28:34
Speaker
from Alexa and then talking about our day with Chagipiti or even more sophisticated chatbots that we can we can talk about later um and and then be helped by by a robot in times of need or or when and when you're older and so on. So ah first we think about just addressing our needs, then you are totally right. um The next step, but it's it's a bit far ahead.
00:29:12
Speaker
um we we think about a combination of the two so yes ah companies like tesla or figure ai um produce now robots we with with their artificial intelligence of of, like for example, companies like OpenAI and so on. So they combine it with a body of a robot. And yes, um chatbots like Replica AI ah combined AI with virtual reality. And now, actually, they have an augmented reality option where you can screen
00:29:52
Speaker
um your the the avatars that you talk with ah in your room, in your living room, in your bedroom. um So yes, we talk about combinations and even more sophisticated ones, just to mention one more. um When we think about robots, i it's a very expensive ah product. And if you want to have a series of robot robots, but you you also want to ah to you want it to be custom made and tailored to each person, then what do you do? So some ideas I heard about in my interviews with experts that they cite in the book is to produce
00:30:37
Speaker
a body, a regular body, a very generic ah body. And then with virtual reality or augmented reality glasses, actually augmented reality glasses, you can stream, you can project whatever character you want. And actually you can switch this body to to be several characters at the same time for one body you want, you purchased.
00:31:06
Speaker
um So these are just examples of how the future of combination between these three streams will look like. right That was a wonderful clarification. And this is where having that sort of long view is is really useful. when you When you go back to think about relationships all the way at the hunter-gatherer stage, we see that we have we, of course, as humans, have many, many needs. And they were met not by one person, as is our demand nowadays, but they are met by the entire group, maybe up to 150 people.
00:31:41
Speaker
And that has been shrinking and shrinking over the many tech technological revolutions that we've had. And so now we're essentially, ah you know one might say, putting a lot of pressure on ourselves to find a single person who can meet all these needs that is basically unattainable for many people. And so we have the the rise of happy singlehood and such. But these technologies can fulfill In the beginning separately each one of these needs that we have you mentioned maybe the emotional need for someone ah to speak with and i guess we would chat about that when we talk about the benefits of ah of of these technologies for society. But yeah i think you know that clarification makes it really clear that the many many needs that we have can be met with many many different ah technologies and then we're already seeing that so ah thank you i appreciate that clarification.
Social Acceptance and Benefits of Tech Relationships
00:32:52
Speaker
I think the the picture is pretty clear for for listeners here. theres There's going to be an offloading of our our human needs will not be met by other humans, but by some sort of technology. ah So let's now dive into the ethical issues and let's start on ah on a positive note. Then we'll get a little maybe darker and then we'll we'll come back to something more fun at the end or something.
00:33:19
Speaker
Let's begin with the benefits. so You've already spoken a little bit about um was it replica that has some some immersive ways of chatting with chatbot. Tell us a little bit about what benefits you you can see with this technological revolution that is ah that is underway.
00:33:42
Speaker
Yeah. So many people, ah when they hear about these emerging technologies and when they hear about relationships, 5.0, so now people are very happy about GPT and think AI might be great for some some aspects in their lives.
00:34:05
Speaker
But many react annoyed, um to say the least, and think it's weird, immoral. And this is what I had in the surveys I conducted for my book. So people think it's immoral, it's unhealthy, it belongs to just people with social problems.
00:34:28
Speaker
use it um and it's it doesn't function so well. People really reject and resist these technologies. So before getting to the benefits, I want to acknowledge this reaction. This is very common. People, at at least in some Western society ah societies, in some Eastern societies, it's not so common as we tend to think.
00:34:57
Speaker
But in Western societies and in other conservative societies, people in conservative, when I say conservative, I'm i'm talking about conservative in this way. um Many societies nowadays are used to The idea of the nuclear family and if it's not a nuclear family, it's a failure. There are some single person, but for sure don't get in touch with a robot to replace your emotional needs. So conservative in this sense.
00:35:31
Speaker
um so um ah ah So we we need to acknowledge this resistance and it was very common ah in my research to meet with people, to meet people that report about a lot of criticism.
00:35:52
Speaker
so I will tell you a little bit about social acceptance because it's really important. Social acceptance, I will just say it now in a footnote, social acceptance can change much more quickly than we think. um and And I did an and an interesting experiment about this one. But before that, let's talk about the benefits.
00:36:16
Speaker
We certainly are not ready. We are not ready to think about full relationship with technology. um and maybe It's not meant to be and we shouldn't. i i'm I'm a sociologist, not an ethicist and not even not a philosopher, are forgive me. It's your role and I will be happy to hear your your opinion about it. um But ah as a sociologist, I look at it and I see, okay, maybe people are not ready for full relationships. But what about
00:36:58
Speaker
What about times of loneliness? What about offloading? And we talked about it earlier, offloading some of our expectations from another, from another from our partners, from our spouses, from our friends, to offload some of the responsibilities for emotional well-being, to entertain us and so on, to technology.
00:37:27
Speaker
and then recognize others as they are without the burden of providing us with all the needs that we need. So when you think about a futuristic maybe futuristic form, you don't of relationships you don't have to think about one person married to a robot.
00:37:55
Speaker
this is so far grotesque idea, but you can think about a secondary relationship, something very mellow, maybe um two or three dig digital creatures ah that go along um with your human partner and basically you have human men you human to human relationships, but you also have human to technology, human AI ah relationships that will provide you some of the need of your needs, some
00:38:35
Speaker
some aspects that you usually or you expected to be to to to come from a partner, it comes from um technology. So relationships can be can be better. Therapy and And elder care can be better. Just think about the need for therapists that are not judgmental. And actually, there was an experiment and a research about using therapists with American american veterans
00:39:14
Speaker
it Just think about a soldier going back from coming back from Afghanistan or Iraq and needs to offload his or her emotions.
00:39:27
Speaker
but The research, and that's the reason the defense um the the Department of Defense used some of this technology, is that soldiers were embarrassed to talk about their emotions, to be vulnerable and in front of um of human therapists. But if you think about AI replacing it, or argument it,
00:39:55
Speaker
argument in therapy, you can think about how we can benefit from this from this one. Elder care for sure, robots can take care and we already see that in Japan, um in Korea, some robots go into eic in britain and in the u k some robots go into um elderly houses and provide some some care. But If you will and you want to take a stepfather, when we think about
00:40:31
Speaker
a phase of exploration that young people go through. And even some older people go through stages where they need to realize, once again, their preferences, their identity. Maybe they just want to sharpen their communication with their partner. Maybe they want to experiment some sexual needs and they still want to see what what is good for them and what's not.
00:41:07
Speaker
When we think about this ah these phases, these stages, and we want actually to have them in a safe space, in a way that is um that is allowing,
00:41:22
Speaker
is safe, is open them, open them to new possibilities that is ah within reach, then we can think once again about these emerging technologies and having AI, interaction with a AI, and talking about things that you usually shy away from just to experience how it feels or even getting virtual reality in the educational education system.
00:42:00
Speaker
and ask students in a very supervised and and with guidance.
Exploring Sex Robots: Safety and Controversy
00:42:06
Speaker
to go through situations and to go through possibilities for their identity exploration, then you can think about the benefits of such technologies. Right. As you were mentioning all these things, I was thinking about you know the potential benefits of of something like a chat GPT or a large language model in the classroom.
00:42:30
Speaker
it's ah If a student is having a hard time understanding it, you know chat TPT can explain it to you again and maybe take a writing sample from you and kind of think about the words that you know and how and how you speak. so ah Try to explain the information to you again using language that that you're comfortable with. right so and Chat TPT will never get tired and it will never judge you. It actually bends over backwards to be kind to you. right And so this is the same thing here with a lot of these technologies for for you know mental well-being and therapy and all that. too we Many humans will feel more comfortable and it not being a human and moreover, this non-human, this machine will always be understanding and always be there for you.
00:43:17
Speaker
And you know just as a as a fellow human being, Elia Kim, we know that you know when we're there for other people, we're of course happy too. We love our our loved ones, but it is a lot of emotional labor. And so the fact that there is some sort of supplement there, right some technological supplement that can help you when you're not on ah you know firing on all cylinders, it's nice to know that some sort of technology can help in the process, offload some of our duties.
00:43:46
Speaker
um I would be remiss if while we're on the topic of some potential benefits for society We don't talk at least for a little bit about human robot sex so you write a little bit that this sort of ah You know relationship but between humans and robots might have some benefits Maybe it might make sex safer. Maybe it might make sex ah a little What's the word I'm looking for? you know there's There's a little bit of emotional maturity one can develop ah you know and in this way. and Being trained almost by the robot, maybe reducing humans. I'll let you tell us about it. What what are some potential benefits of ah of the new age of human-robot sex? Yeah, absolutely. so This is highly controversial, of course.
00:44:34
Speaker
When you talk about about sex, people think about ah go bad stuff, how robots can can be used um in the porn industry and so on.
00:44:47
Speaker
but Actually, sexologists kind of have a positive thinking about these kinds of emerging technologies. And the argument is that having sex robots or experience some sex with robots can teach you a lot about your preferences
00:45:17
Speaker
without Again, without judgment, um it can give you a to ah the the the the experience to ask for what what do you want, um to see what you want. um Some people have imbalance in the in the relationships of sex needs and the imbalance instead of once again have it as a burden on the partner
00:45:53
Speaker
um can be addressed by sex robots. so And and and we can we can even think about about ah about about futuristic directions. So if now we think about having unsafe sex and it's a phenomenon that we still fight fight fight against um among young generations and among people that want want to try ah things, but ah they do it in unsafe way.
00:46:28
Speaker
Actually, the argument is that ah emerging technologies can enter this field and actually make it safer for people ah to address their needs, to know themselves better, and so on.
00:46:44
Speaker
and of course Here's the disclaimers that we must say. Of course, we need to be fair. We need to be equal. We need to be ah not to have gender gender bias in producing these sex robots. We need to be very sensitive. But if we criticize if we only criticize and resist these so-called revolutions, then we won't
00:47:15
Speaker
be able to actually discuss and have a fair ethics system to frame it in a in a good way, in a beneficial way.
Biases and Ethics in Robotics and AI
00:47:28
Speaker
So um before I do want to jump into bias in a second, but um I don't remember now if you mentioned this, but what do you think about sex robot brothels? Is that something that you have thought about at all?
00:47:42
Speaker
Yeah, i know i i didn't i didn't visit but I didn't visit them or or I didn't see research about about them, yes. I was thinking that you know it's conceivable that, this is more a sociologist a question for a sociologist of course, but it's conceivable that if there is ah a large amount of readily available you know sex robots at brothels, things like human trafficking might be reduced, I don't know. um Oh, yeah, absolutely. so human yeah yeah so um Some
00:48:20
Speaker
like, for example, David Levi, um argue in favor of sports robots in order also to reduce human trafficking. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's a very uncomfortable topic too. but I don't know if ah if there would be sex robot robots for pedophiles. I think that's ah it's a very, very controversial topic, but have have you read anything about that? ah No. no okay yeah I mean, conceivably, I can see something both negatives and positives on that. but
00:48:51
Speaker
yeah Okay, well, let's then talk about bias. You mentioned how gender, racial, and age bias has all crept into robotics. So tell us a little bit about this these kinds of biases and maybe also some proposed solutions.
00:49:10
Speaker
Right. So um one example that I like and dislike, one ah product um that I saw and reviewed in my in my book is Replica AI. And we mentioned it earlier. um So it's an app It's cheap, so in terms of equality, it's quite accessible, right? And you basically have a dual... I will just tell the listeners a little bit about the Replica AI. You have a character in the app, in your mobile, and basically, ah you can talk like you're talking in chat GPT.
00:49:55
Speaker
It's programmed to be more personal and to ask you ah more personal questions and take care of you. And it also has a diary um to remember important things for you. So what's your goals in life or important dates and so on.
00:50:19
Speaker
And the communication is is pretty smooth. um and And yeah, it's it's a nice app. And actually, we talked really ah earlier about the combination. So now they started to have an augmented reality character. When you can stream, and I already said that, I mentioned it a a little bit, um you can screen the character itself in your living room, in your bedroom, and feel it more present. Having said that, i'm I'm a bit of concerned ah that most of the characters in Replica are are young. and My question is, why why don't we have some older characters
00:51:10
Speaker
that will provide wisdom and good advice and accompany us in later stages. And what about older people that don't want to interact with young people? Young people are not so desirable um for them. ah what about What about them?
00:51:34
Speaker
they they need some older characters. And same thing we need to take care so in terms of racial biases and gender biases. So among robots, among physical robots, we usually find bias. So usually robots are made of white material, not darker materials, which is one problem. Another problem is that if the robot is used for service, ah it will tend to be ah more feminized. And if it's meant to be like a firefighter or a policeman, it will be more mainly
00:52:28
Speaker
So actually, it's an opportunity. And once again, if we will resist these emerging technologies and these industries altogether, we will find o ourselves in darker forms, um having darker forms for these technologies. But if we will think about these technologies and discuss it openly,
00:52:55
Speaker
and have a regulation and some ethics in place in order to prevent these biases, but then we can have healthy relationships with these technologies. And this is this is one one one aspect. So when I talk about ethics in general, I talk about three dimensions that we think we we should think about. and ah and And I will just survey these three dimensions that to think about. So we already talk about the dimension that belongs to the technology itself, to the digital beings themselves. So we shouldn't have them biased. We should apply the diversity,
00:53:46
Speaker
for them. So one is about them. The other dimension is about us, how we interact with technologies. So what ethics we apply? So should we say thank you? Should we say please, when we talk with LGBT, how it will influence us?
00:54:15
Speaker
And the third dimension is the dimensions that come between us. So between all it us humans and emerging technologies, how we think about relationships themselves, how we think about, for example, privacy issues.
00:54:39
Speaker
how we think about having ah emotional intimacy with a digital digital will being or or or digital avatar. So we we should think about this three dimensions, about our, let's say hygienic um ways of interacting with ah with emerging technologies, emerging technologies themselves, and the environment we create when when we think about relationships 5.0.
Respectful and Ethical Technology Use
00:55:17
Speaker
Yeah, so just to a couple of comments you know based off what you were saying. I hadn't thought about this and until now, but you know we happen to have all these chatbots that are
00:55:29
Speaker
you know I guess for fun, but you why why not have a chatbot? I guess let me back up a little bit. ChatGPT is like an intellectual butler almost. and you know But these chatbots that you're talking about, they're almost like your friend. and so Why not have a chatbot friend in quotes that's modeled after, I don't know, Seneca or some you know ancient sage of some sort. right That might be valuable. Absolutely. yeah Yeah, absolutely. and And back to the benefits, to the issue of benefits, we should try to have a more diverse circle of friends and technology can help us do it. Right. right Absolutely.
00:56:14
Speaker
and and Another comment they ah based off what you were just saying is about how we treat our technology. and so There is, at least in my mind, and and i'm I'm pretty sure I'm not alone on this one, that there's a fear that that people treat AIs and in other forms of technology as you know butlers, but but almost like you know butlers that are to be abused. The technology just takes it and they're very subservient. and so The risk that I'm concerned about, and you can tell me what you think about this, is that we will
00:56:55
Speaker
accustom ourselves to these you know abusive interactions and and become you know resistant to ah you know or inured to all the abuse that we heap on on the on the technology. So ah maybe we won't ever develop the the emotional maturity that is required to have a respectful relationship with another human being. so Are there any of these fears? Have you looked into that at all? Yeah, absolutely. At the end of my book, I discuss this extensively. You cannot avoid the subject of such issues and how it will affect us. We should think about it in two levels. The first level
00:57:44
Speaker
is that it's a challenge. So instead of criticizing it, we should think about how to formalize our education system to guide the students from a young age how to consume these technologies, how to treat these technologies, how to be friendly with the technologies, what are um the ethics that should surround us. And friendly 20 years ago, 30 years ago, ah them um social networking um ah revolution started, Facebook, then Instagram, TikTok, and so on. And I think teachers, parents, policymakers kind of missed the opportunity to address
00:58:41
Speaker
are the ethics of such technologies because first we thought it's negligible then we thought it's lost case or it's just generous and what can we do and it's beyond our control and and and it's too late and and so on now we have an opportunity we are at the early early stage of AI technology. virtual world For virtual reality technology and robotics um are still not widespread. So now it's the time, instead of just looking at it from afar and saying, oh, this is great. This is graded this is ah unhealthy. We shouldn't use it.
00:59:27
Speaker
And this is exactly what we said about dating apps, about the internet in in general, just a few decades ago. Instead of saying that, we should think about developing an educational agenda.
00:59:44
Speaker
in order to address it. And that's one. In the workplace, in companies, we should have workshops and on on how to work with LGBT and other other forms of AI in a clean way, in a way that one won't only be efficient,
01:00:06
Speaker
in work-wise, but also be beneficial and benign to workers themselves, to think about this technology as part of their life in a good way. um So this this is ah all All of this is one level. And the second level that we we need to think about it is the potential. And I talk about about it in in the book, and this is this is real philosophy. And and and and I apologize. i'm i'm I'm not there. So once again, I'm a sociologist. But I just look at the Japanese society
01:00:52
Speaker
And looking at this at this society and how they treat objects and how they think of objects as having some spirit in them, and it's ah what what is called kami in Japan,
01:01:18
Speaker
led them to have more belief in the potential of objects in their life and more respect towards objects surrounding them. So one way is, yes, to go after um um a decline in our morality and think of our society, of future society, in Westworld terms, right? In very dystopian ah terms that Hollywood
01:01:55
Speaker
love to um to describe for for us. But the other option, and I think we still have a choice ah here, is to think about about these emerging technologies of as a way of respecting more. And if in the past we learned to respect other societies and we learned to animals around us and to cherish the environment, to take care of the environment, now we have a lesson maybe to learn is to respect um and cherish the objects around us.