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#17 Caroline Ashcroft: The Catastrophic Imagination
32 Plays24 days ago
In this episode, we speak with Dr. Caroline Ashcroft, Lecturer in Politics at the University of Oxford and author of Catastrophic Technology in Cold War Political Thought. Drawing on figures like Arendt, Jonas, Ellul, and Marcuse, Ashcroft explores a powerful yet underexamined idea: that modern technology is not just risky or disruptive—but fundamentally catastrophic. We discuss how mid-century political theorists viewed technology as reshaping the environment, the self, and the world in ways that eroded human dignity, democratic life, and any sense of limits.
For more info, visit ethicscircle.org.
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Transcript
Caroline Ashcroft and Catastrophic Technology
00:00:17
Speaker
Hi everyone and welcome to the ATEC Podcast. Today we're thrilled to have Dr. Caroline Ashcroft. Dr. Ashcroft is a lecturer in politics at the University of Oxford and today will be discussing her new book, Catastrophic Technology in Cold War Political Thought.
00:00:35
Speaker
This book explores the intellectual history of the idea of catastrophic technology in the work of some of the 20th century's most important philosophers and political thinkers. It's a privilege to have you with us today, Dr. Ashcroft.
00:00:48
Speaker
Welcome. Hi, it's a pleasure to be here. Okay, let's start with a little bit about you, Caroline. Do you mind if I call you Caroline? Is that okay?
00:01:00
Speaker
So I'll say fine. Love it. So we're we're curious, Sam and I, where did you grow up? What were some of the key moments in your life that shaped your path towards becoming this type of scholar?
00:01:11
Speaker
Because this topic, I want you to know, Caroline, we Sam and and I have been you know shooting texts back and forth and in the you know kind of with the ethos of this catastrophic technology in mind, it is getting pretty calamitous here. So what made you want to study this particular topic?
00:01:28
Speaker
you know aspect of ah the history of political thought?
00:01:33
Speaker
so um and So in terms of my background, i grew up in London, and um was always interested in in politics, but I guess it was when I i when i started to my degree as an undergrad at Cambridge in politics that I became sort of more aware of and the history of political thought um in in in all of its breadth.
00:01:53
Speaker
um I mean, ah some of the One of the thinkers that I've worked on a lot in my career and really one of the thinkers that I suppose inspired me to so give the academic career path a was Hannah Arendt.
00:02:12
Speaker
So I worked a lot on on the philosopher Hannah Arendt in the past.
Mid-20th Century Technological Critiques
00:02:17
Speaker
I found her and um way of thinking about the nature of politics itself in its breadth, um, and kind of the limits and the possibilities of politics, um, fascinating.
00:02:28
Speaker
But that was also sort of the starting point for thinking about technology. Um, so she was writing in the sort of 50s, 60s, ah fifty sixty seventy s um not necessarily always on technology, but technology is always there a context. And it really frames, you know, this concept of technology as crisis really frames a lot of her thinking.
00:02:49
Speaker
And on sort of starting to read around little bit more broadly, it became quite apparent that this sort background or this framework was really present in a lot of, in the work of a lot of political theorists in this era.
00:03:04
Speaker
So that was the sort of the the starting point, I guess.
00:03:08
Speaker
Awesome. Yeah. So in your book, you discuss the emergence of what you describe as not just a critical, but a catastrophic idea of technology and emerged in the mid 20th century.
00:03:20
Speaker
Yeah. So what would this how would you describe this idea? And who are the nine thinkers you know you identify as proponents of this catastrophic idea of technology?
00:03:32
Speaker
so So I should say that you know catastrophic technology is is my term rather than theirs, but I think it's a reasonable way of describing this sort of converging idea between different theorists.
00:03:45
Speaker
um This idea that modern technology is a kind of deeply worrying form of practice, um something that threatens human society, human politics, even human life as such, and which...
00:04:02
Speaker
i sort of entails or embodied in this idea is the idea is is the fact that um embodied within this is the idea that this threat is somehow inherent in modern technology um so that is inherent in technology as a form of practice as also as well as um sort of realizing the specific form that technology takes in the world So i I look at nine different thinkers in this book, or foreground nine different thinkers, as you you say. um
00:04:37
Speaker
They are all similarly pessimistic about technology, but what is quite interesting about this group, and one of the reasons why I selected these particular um individuals, is we can see that this ah concept of catastrophic technology doesn't emerge from any particular school of thought, from any particular ideology.
00:04:59
Speaker
So we have on the furthest right, Martin Heidegger, the philosopher. on the On the left we have you know political left, we have a number of Frankfurt School thinkers, Adorno, Marcuse, Horkheimer,
00:05:13
Speaker
um There are a number of political thinkers who studied under Heidegger, but actually spent much of their career repudiating his ideas in many ways. Hannah Arendt is one, also Gunter Anders and Hans Jonas.
00:05:27
Speaker
Jacques Ellul is a French thinker who comes from a very different kind of tradition. He's an anti-tech, sort of sociologist, theologian. um His work was quite influential and widely read on technology at the time, but but much less so popular.
00:05:42
Speaker
much less those today. and then finally, I look at Lewis Mumford as well. So again, at the time, a very widely read u sort of public intellectual who wrote pretty major and very influential works on technology in the period between the 1930s and the 1970s. But again, much less widely read now. So sort of ideologically, politically, and in terms of their disciplinary backgrounds, all of these thinkers come from um ah yeah, a very kind of very wide range of perspectives and positions.
00:06:17
Speaker
um And that's kind of one of the things that I think is quite interesting. So we have a significant agreement on the problems of technology, but, um you know, a very diverse, very diverse background.
00:06:28
Speaker
Speaking of very diverse, I think a lot of people immediately when they hear catastrophic technology, they think atomic bombs, but you're not really only talking about atomic weaponry here, or you know, they might even think of, you know, genetic biological warfare, that kind of thing, but it's actually deeper than that. Can you kind of give a a summary of of what you mean? What kind of technologies are in question here? um yeah So, so as I said, the,
00:07:02
Speaker
The critique that they're offering is not um it's not just of particular technologies, although there are plenty of those. It's not even a critique of the side effects or the misuse or or misuse of a particular technologies.
00:07:17
Speaker
But their claims about these sort of particular problematic manifestations of technological impact from UK the problems of TV and and radio to atomic weapons, um these are rooted in the claim that modern technology as such has a somehow fundamentally totalizing and dominating character um and that this is therefore in tension with what is most valuable about human existence.
00:07:48
Speaker
So our difference, our plurality, our potential to to to disagree and to critique. And um so technology is is therefore a practice that kind of fundamentally misunderstands ah sorry fundamentally misundtands what what matters about the human world and because it places technology above humans.
00:08:10
Speaker
reverses the proper relationship of ends and means. Okay, so yeah, it just it's interesting how if you think about an anti-tech position in the mid-20th century,
00:08:23
Speaker
um you know, obviously, or a kind of obvious anti-tech position would be, you know, we need to be more careful about what sorts of technologies we create.
00:08:36
Speaker
For example, we should maybe not create things that can ah kill so many people at once, like atomic bombs or another idea is, yeah, just in general, maybe we need to be less like gung-ho about ah trying to always create new technologies because it's like what you know what potentially catastrophic technology we're going to create next.
00:08:57
Speaker
um But yeah, this is, again, it's just just like a deeper idea that it's not just that there are certain pieces of technology which either by design or through misuse could kill a ton of people or maybe destroy the environment. It's like built into our like our everyday maybe practice of technology.
00:09:19
Speaker
it sounds like what you just said is that it's like there's kind of effects on our what we value.
Technology's Impact on Human Values
00:09:24
Speaker
Is that maybe one of the core issues with it? Is that it kind of messes with our value structure? We no longer value difference. Instead, we value efficiency as the top thing.
00:09:36
Speaker
Yeah, could you kind of just elaborate a little bit on the like, what it sounded me like a values issue. But yeah, anyway, just kind of curious what you would say to that. Yeah, i I think part of it is um that it it imposes and a new problematic system of values onto the human world.
00:09:56
Speaker
um
00:10:00
Speaker
it's also but but it's But it's not simply that. So some of you think these thinkers are more interested in the the ethical problems, the ethical concerns um that come out of technological practice.
00:10:12
Speaker
But it is also there are sort of problems of how we can understand the world, how we can understand ourselves in relation to our future.
00:10:24
Speaker
um the How do we grapple with the risks that come out of technology when we don't really understand what they are, when we don't have any experience or ah traditions of technology?
00:10:36
Speaker
of ethics or politics don't give us a kind of a ground to stand on in terms of, um in terms of, yeah, engaging with or mitigating the risks or, you know, effectively utilizing the possibilities of these technologies.
00:10:51
Speaker
um So it is about, um it's about values in part, but it's hey kind of speaks to almost everything about the sort of, everything about the human condition, right? So the way that we,
00:11:06
Speaker
um our norms and values, and but also what we can know about the world, our relationships with one another. and So it's it's kind of expansive. Yeah. it's One thing I really like about that type of thinking is that, you know growing up the time that we do, from a very young age, it's like we're in an environment that's saturated with technology.
00:11:26
Speaker
And obviously, you know, as we all realize, know, technology wasn't always this advanced. And so you kind of just wonder yourself, like, oh I wonder... what subtle impact this heavily technological environment is having on human life. And so it's really interesting to think about it like at a really sort of high level in the sense of like looking for like the most, I don't know, or maybe the the deepest level thinking like how, how is it transforming human life in a really like broad way? Anyway. So it's, it's really interesting that aspect um real quick, like, you know,
00:12:04
Speaker
but there's There's the kind of obvious objection that, look, these guys are way too anti-technology. I mean, we haven't gone into quite the level of anti-tech these guys go, i mean it's but it's very deep.
00:12:18
Speaker
You've already hinted at it. They are very anti-technology in some sense. And so someone might be like, well, that's a little bit crazy because there's so many benefits associated with modern technology.
00:12:29
Speaker
I mean, can talk about decline in malnutrition due to fertilizers. disease control. You can talk about safer childbirth. You can talk about pain management. There's just so many benefits connected with modern technology.
00:12:42
Speaker
And so someone is naturally going resist the idea that we should be super anti-tech. So anyway, yeah, what would you what what would be their response? like Why aren't they more balanced in their assessment of modern technology?
00:13:01
Speaker
So i I should probably say, while I think that there is a lot we can take from these ideas, it's not really my intention in the book to defend these all of these claims in their entirety. right you know They are taking an extreme position. There's no no question about that.
00:13:17
Speaker
And of course, um in large part, they direct their attention to the more potentially problematic or risky aspects of modern technology. They're not particularly interested in um observing that you know the benefits of modern technology. That is not the kind of project that they're engaging in. So, yes, it's absolutely it's it's biased in in many ways, and it's an extreme perspective in many ways.
00:13:41
Speaker
But I think... um There are a couple of ways that we might defend some of the claims that they make. So if we take all of this bias and the fact that they're certainly not impartial observers into account, there are still a few things that I think are helpful to think about here.
00:14:03
Speaker
So they argue that technology is largely viewed as a progressive force and this is kind of a major part of the problem. so if we think that technology is progressive or that we need technology in order to progress, we thereby kind of validate technological change in and of itself.
00:14:21
Speaker
it It sort of precludes judgment on technological innovation or development. um And the same is true, actually, even if we think about technology as a mutual force, you know which seems um a fairly reasonable position.
00:14:36
Speaker
um But if you think that the tendency of modern technology, as it indeed seems to be, is to extend itself, to develop itself, to expand, and you know you still have the same outcome, which is that technology kind of um um progresses without sort of limitation.
00:14:52
Speaker
so we kind of need to be somewhat critical of technology in a context where a faith in technological progression is the norm. And I think this is a sort of somewhat reasonable claim, you know, an argument for critique, both then and now actually.
00:15:11
Speaker
And then, i yeah, the second point I would make is that it is not necessarily the case that... and technology or science as such cannot be used for good, but rather that the prevalent norms of technology and technology for technology's sake are problematic.
00:15:32
Speaker
So i said it's already technology is seen as a system or a form of practice, um which is increasingly difficult to control as any kind of entrenched system of of organization and is.
00:15:45
Speaker
ah But that is ultimately the result of human choices. So, you know, it's not inconceivable that if we radically change our perspective on technology and how we approach it, that could potentially lead to a more humanistic system of technology. But that is hard to do, of course, and these thinkers are quite pessimistic about the possibilities of of doing that.
00:16:07
Speaker
So I have, ah I guess, two questions to ask you just to kind of clarify all this, but let me go with the first one that that has to do with how this is a type of technology that they seem to be describing it as if it arose in the 20th century. So I guess my question is, is it the case that they're really referring to a particular kind of approach, a technological practice that was...
00:16:37
Speaker
developed in the 20th century? Or can we say that really technology from the get-go kind of had this this thing about them? And the reason why i this comes to mind is because sometimes I read historians who say something like, you know, agriculture as a technology, that's when it all started going down or whatever, right? So this sort of critique of technology doesn't have to be placed right where it got placed by these particular this particular set of thinkers. So can you tell us ah why ah pre-modern technology is different from modern technology for these folks?
Pre-modern vs Modern Technology
00:17:14
Speaker
Yeah, so um you're absolutely right. Technology is is as old as human history in its in its various forms. These theorists are clearly concerned with modern technology and broadly speaking, that's kind of and the technology of the industrial era and beyond.
00:17:32
Speaker
So in the 20th century, it takes on some particularly um and starving um disturbing characteristic disturbing characteristics becomes particularly kind of expansive, um but it's, yeah, I would say it's a technology that has developed over the kind of 19th and 20th centuries primarily.
00:17:52
Speaker
There are some differences in how these thinkers view the history of technology. So Heidegger, for instance, certainly sees in even ancient if technologies or tools ah like some kind of potential problems in that you know if we are thinking about tools and technologies, it kind of produces an instrumentalising way of thinking about the world and you know he thinks that that develops over time and it's really at the root of some of the problems with technology.
00:18:27
Speaker
and That's not really a kind of a typical position and but one thing that does it does tend to distinguish um One thing that these theorists do use to distinguish modern technology from pre-modern technology is a distinction between between tools and technology.
00:18:47
Speaker
So when they're talking about technology, it's something that is in some way autonomous, right? A tool is something that is used by humans. um Technology is something that can kind of in some way replace human beings.
00:19:04
Speaker
This is kind of the distinction. And this is why modern technology is so potentially problematic because it changes and transforms our world and our relationships with with one another potentially in ways that that tool technology could not.
00:19:20
Speaker
So technology is... in a sense, autonomous and not like AI autonomous, but there's there's a logic to the practice of modern technology and that kind of runs on its own.
00:19:32
Speaker
So I guess this leads well into my my other question. and Let's just speak of ah a regular Joe. I'm a regular Joe on most days, right? On some days, I put on my philosopher hat and I talk to smart people, but really, i just go to work and I play with computers and and I talk to people and I give my presentations and all that.
00:19:52
Speaker
So for someone regular Roberto, just like me, um what we've we've been speaking about this in a real you know high level, in an abstract level, but how is the technology that is autonomous, considering of it that way, how is it dominating in my life or totalizing in my life? Those are some labels that... So basically, I guess...
00:20:18
Speaker
let's go down to the real brass tacks, right? and how How does it ah affect me negatively in my daily existence? So there are a few different kind of ways that we can can think about that. So I look at some of these different forms of technology um in in the book. say um
00:20:42
Speaker
So in our sort of daily lives, um we might think about and We might think about the technologies of of the workplace, the technologies of production, right? These have kind of transformed so how we do work, what the workplace looks like.
00:20:58
Speaker
and And that is a kind of a significant part of but our life. And it's, you know, it's pretty pretty clear that technology is and has been for a long time transforming the world of work.
00:21:11
Speaker
um
00:21:13
Speaker
It's transforming
00:21:19
Speaker
Globalization, you know, technology is at the root of globalization um of the relationships that we can have with other people. and hey It causes kind of distance to shrink, as Heidegger said. and It means that the sort of traditional ways in which we engage with other people um been um have been transformed.
00:21:43
Speaker
um So there are, you know, You can and think about this in sort of yeah in almost any any sphere of life, would say. Interesting. I'd be curious about the distance thing. could you Could you comment a little bit more on that? That's interesting. like Because I feel like one thought that I often have with technology is that you know potentially it's causing more alienation, more loneliness. um I suppose that's simply because it's like you can kind of entertain yourself pretty easily alone via technology. You're not as reliant on ah turning to other people to get your kicks, so to speak, in our time. So that's kind of what I would be thinking is like it's sort of an alienating, has like an alienating effect. um
00:22:28
Speaker
But you're talking about losing distance as being a problem. That's kind of an interesting idea. Can you kind of could you elaborate on that um just a little bit like? this idea of like, how are we actually losing distance and how is that actually a bad thing potentially?
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:48
Speaker
I think the problem is, one of the problems is we are creating a sort of artificial situation right So traditionally we we you know we live together in communities, we we speak to each other face-to face to face.
00:23:02
Speaker
and yeah That is not to say that traditional communities are perfect or ideal, it's clearly not the case. and But there is a um a form of interaction which is kind of, um well, somehow natural for humans um and at least is a form of kind of communication and interaction that we have become used to.
00:23:25
Speaker
Um, once you collapse distance, collapse distance, um, once you can, i guess, talk to anyone at any time, but also turn them off at any time.
00:23:39
Speaker
Um, once you can sort of have
00:23:45
Speaker
relationships with people on the other side of the world, that, yeah, simply don't have the kind of the depth that, that they do, um, when you are in a sort of a more traditional community.
00:23:57
Speaker
i think it just, it kind of, it breaks down the norms of, of interaction have existed previously. This makes me think also of, I think Heidegger mentioned something about how, i mean, that, that, um,
00:24:13
Speaker
and about how we're time or something like that he identifies us with time in a sense and i think of my time getting atomized by you know the collapse of distance like my boss can email me whatever time ah they want and so um not that that bothers me bleep i'm not gonna say her name but uh but you know ah in case she listens i don't know uh but but yeah i i definitely think that um there's a sense in which we don't notice how it is a technology through, through the very logic of efficiency and, and wanting to, you know, my, the totalization function, my, my computer is linked to my phone, which is linked to my calendar. So every, every device that I own knows everything about me basically.
00:24:59
Speaker
yeah And I get notifications even when I'm trying to not get notifications. Right. So my, my attention is getting atomized too. Uh, so, so I, I get this, um, this fragmenting that they're referring to. Yeah.
00:25:14
Speaker
So we were kind of curious, like um could you kind of elaborate on what traditions these anti-technological thinkers or what ideologies would these anti-technological thinkers be opposed to? So for example, in your book, you talk about how this is kind of opposed to liberal progressive ideologies.
00:25:40
Speaker
Can you tell us a little bit about that? I'm curious, like what you know how would you describe like what what are some key features of a liberal progressive ideology? And then what exactly, um how is the catastrophic idea of technology challenging this yeah liberal progressive ideology?
00:25:59
Speaker
Yes, so given that these theorists all have very different ideas about politics um and what politics should be, their understandings of liberalism are obviously also, they have their own understanding of what that means.
00:26:15
Speaker
So they share a critique of liberalism in that they don't think that that gets you to authentic politics. um And of course that might be said that this is a pretty, pretty, thin sense of a shared critique and and that is in to some extent the case.
00:26:30
Speaker
But I think it's also relevant that post-war liberalism, much of post-war liberalism understood itself and defined itself in opposition to totalitarianism and especially communist authoritarianism. So you know this is liberalism defining itself as the good pole of of global politics.
00:26:49
Speaker
and So the critique of of technology um kind of
Technology's Authoritarian Tendencies
00:26:55
Speaker
challenges that idea of liberal politics in and two ways.
00:27:00
Speaker
So first of all, these theorists argue that liberalism kind of contains within itself a concept of progress, that liberal societies are progressing towards some better future and some better society.
00:27:17
Speaker
And this sort of aligns with the logic of technological optimism, in their opinion. The one kind of supports the other. And of course, if you're not optimistic about prospects of of technology, you're not going to be um very very much favour of this alliance.
00:27:34
Speaker
um But there is another reason, which is that these theorists characterise, as we've already spoken about, they characterise technology as inherently totalising, so tending towards increasingly authoritarian or totalitarian politics.
00:27:52
Speaker
And they think that this is the same everywhere, in all advanced technological nations or regions of the world. ah So if we think that liberalism will save us from authoritarian politics, then we're completely missing the point in their opinion. Um, this pursuit of technological advancement is only going to move us down that path faster.
00:28:12
Speaker
So they offer a kind of, um, anti-liberal anti-totalitarianism on the basis of the technology critique as a global force, which is, um, yeah, yeah quite an interesting response to the dominant bipolar geopolitical understanding of the cultural world.
00:28:28
Speaker
So when it comes to the authoritarian element, um, you you kind of know this in your book, it's kind of obvious that you can use technology for authoritarian or totalitarian ends. I mean, just most, I mean, this one that jumps out at you is like, you know, Hitler used loudspeakers and whatnot, I suppose, to do his ah and speeches. Or, I mean, know, better one would be, you know, surveillance technology and um like the USSR and stuff. ah But so yeah there are certain like instances of technology being wielded by totalitarian authoritarian regimes.
00:29:06
Speaker
But it seems like this idea that there's like an authoritarian ah drift in technologies deeper because it wasn't, wasn't like Adorno and them. They were kind of worried about mass media. and they They were like, anyway, and they thought there was like an authoritarian element to just like,
00:29:23
Speaker
the radio, right? I mean, it wasn't in... Anyway, i could you comment on that a little bit? thanks Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, some of this sounds, um you know, very archaic and a bit mad in retrospect. you know, why are they so worried about the radio or the TV or film?
00:29:43
Speaker
You know, what do we really have to, you know... We live in a world which is now where these these things are completely normalized and, um you know... Well, Caroline, can I just... I'm sorry, i just want to interrupt real quick. I was just thinking, one thing, though, is that I have to say, i feel like yeah when you read their criticisms of the radio and stuff, it's like, at the time, it's almost like, oh, yeah, this seems like a little bit extreme. But I actually feel like maybe contemporary, when you think about what's going on with recommender systems and like how actually... like when you you know when you just just to get a movie,
00:30:16
Speaker
you're at you know or whenever you put a movie on on netflix actually your whole life is like kind of being watched and they're using tons of data about you to like suggest the most compelling next pick and anyway i almost feel like they're that they're like really like dark pessimistic ideas is becoming a little bit more plausible now like it almost like back in the day it was like a little bit like okay these guys are going over top. But I feel like but potentially with AI especially, it's like, it's becoming more... Anyway, i just wanted to throw that out there. Sorry, I didn't want to interrupt. No, no, I think that is... think that is...
00:30:47
Speaker
i think that is but That's one of the things that I find really interesting. and So they are, you know when they're talking about these kinds of technologies, they're talking about radio and they're talking about TV, what they have in mind is like broadcast media.
00:31:02
Speaker
You know, it's, it is some authority that is projecting their ideas out onto the masses. um Right. And of course that is not the kind of media that we have today. And yet you still have, or we have different kinds of, um,
00:31:19
Speaker
sort of centralizing forces, you know, forces of ah social conformism and in the way that you spoke about. um And, know, I don't want to say that these are exactly the same things, but it is fascinating that the very problems that they observed as being somehow integral to technology have arisen, even with very, very different forms of technology. Yes, yeah.
00:31:46
Speaker
Well, we're already on the topic of media, so maybe we should stick on that topic for a second. Yeah, yeah. Because you you talk about so the ah technological world. Maybe you can tell us a little about but what you mean by that. But the technological world that that technology creates has an alienating effect, a totalizing effect, and the illusion of progress, which...
00:32:14
Speaker
It's a very good album also by Stained, the American rock band. But I'm going to have to edit that. I'm sorry. so But so tell us about the technological world and tell us about how the mass media sort of facilitates that alienation, totalization and the illusion that you ah talk about.
00:32:35
Speaker
Yeah. So... So when I write that the technological world is an alienated world, I mean that for these theorists, individual subjectivity, and which is the term that you usually use, individuality is suppressed by the determinism of the technological structure of the world.
00:32:55
Speaker
So... Marcuse talks about this as one dimensionality. ah so you have the loss in the modern world of plurality and difference and dissent and critique, which is of course essential for him.
00:33:09
Speaker
So and media enables this, or modern media kind of enables this by projecting a particular vision of the world. um You know, and this is the sort of centralizing broadcast image of media and that these theorists draw on, I just spoke about.
00:33:28
Speaker
it projects a particular vision of the world, but it also hides that fact. So contemporary media and media culture can produce a sort of false image of solidarity.
00:33:40
Speaker
ah Whereas, you know, the reality is we are not in fact friends with the celebrities that we see are on TV. This sort of relationship via the media is completely false in any way real human terms.
00:33:54
Speaker
um The totalising pressure of media can be seen in in a number of different ways, but ah one important sense of this is the way in which the distinction between public and private is of increasingly broken down um by like the media. So these things that were out there in the wider world are now in our house, on our TV screens.
00:34:22
Speaker
You have 24-hour news. ah It breaks down... and thanks Again, talking about distance and space and time earlier, it breaks down these distances and space and time that previously existed. We have access to everything anytime.
00:34:39
Speaker
um yeah So this is this ah another kind of major feature of how they understand media and and the problems. and of of media as a totalizing process. One interesting... Oh, sorry. I didn't make a... No, no, no, go ahead. I was just going to say, one interesting idea you bring up is how like the... For Marcuse, the...
00:35:00
Speaker
radio and television kind of create a second world. um It's sort of like an image of the world. And so it's not really the world, but people are sort of feel as though they live inside of the second world rather than the actual one.
00:35:17
Speaker
um Anyway, I just thought that was kind of an interesting idea because that again, I feel like as technology has progressed, that becomes more and more plausible. Like it, it does feel like you could sort of live your whole life as it were online in a sense, like in the sense of like, there's your friends are on your face. I don't know. I just think this idea of like a second world maybe has become, um, yeah, more plot, even more plausible than maybe when he first proposed it.
00:35:50
Speaker
Yeah, i I agree. And, you humans humans create humans create their own worlds in different ways, right? Humans have always created their own worlds and what that means. like The communities that we live in are our laws or our norms or, you know, our material world as well. um um But there is there is a sense in which sort of technology as a particular form of of artifice um does seem to to be something quite distinctive.
00:36:22
Speaker
um in and and And as you say, even more so in the 21st century um when it becomes um yeah kind of all encompassing.
00:36:33
Speaker
anyway know I know talk about this term a lot, but it it does seem to, yeah. yeah It's a something is all-encompassing and...
00:36:45
Speaker
Yeah. And again, just doesn't seem to kind of map onto any of the ways of constructing worlds, ways of constructing worlds between us um that that we have had in the past. And I guess that's the key difference.
00:36:57
Speaker
You know, we have formally constructed ah political or social worlds in interaction with other people. And, you know, with technology, maybe you don't need to do that. Maybe your world is simply your own.
00:37:10
Speaker
It's a kind of a pure isolation, at least potentially. say It's interesting because that kind of leads into another idea that you you discuss a lot, which is Arendt's idea of like there being a dual alienation going on in contemporary um and the 20th century. So on the one hand, Earth alienation.
00:37:33
Speaker
On the other hand, world alienation. So I was just thinking of that because it's like with the earth alienation, it's like, yeah, you know, human beings have always kind of created their cultures.
Arendt's Earth and World Alienation
00:37:44
Speaker
But at the same time, it's like, it seems like in the past, the rhythms of nature were a lot more integrated.
00:37:50
Speaker
I mean, for one thing, It's like you went to bed probably like when it was night, you know, whereas now it's like, well, I just keep the lights on, you know I'll go to bed whenever I please kind of thing. So it's like, there's a lack of synchronization with natural rhythms.
00:38:05
Speaker
um Anyway, so that seems like a kind of earth alienation potentially. And, but then also there's like at a world alienation where it's like an alienation from the political world. So anyway, do you want to talk about those two things in a rant? That's kind of an interesting idea.
00:38:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. so So I think in terms of um in terms of what I would was just talking about, yeah that's kind of world alienation in Arendtian terms. So, you know, for Arendt, the world is the ah political world that we we construct for ourselves or construct between ourselves.
00:38:36
Speaker
um And she thinks that alienation from these political worlds is accelerating in the modern world, not simply because of technology, but that is is one um factor.
00:38:51
Speaker
um Earth alienation is um yeah it's another kind of interesting idea that she talks about which is a little bit different but again and yeah but does, as you say, kind of convey the sense that we are drifting further from the yeah the natural world that we have always been rooted in before before now So since she kind of she thinks you know since Galileo, since we started thinking about the world and ourself in universal terms or about our place within the universe, um that our our perspective has kind of shifted. so instead of yeah being rooted in space and place, you know in the world, in our communities,
00:39:41
Speaker
on kind of a locale, um, we instead think of ourselves from, yeah, from kind of universal perspective. Um, we look, I guess, from the outside in we look upon ourselves as humanity or mankind, as opposed to kind of seeing ourselves in terms of plurality, in terms of difference.
00:40:04
Speaker
um So yeah, there's a ah kind of a ah dramatic shift in in perspective in lots of different ways. And that's not, as I say, that's not purely to do with technology, but it is to do with the development of thinking from scientific perspectives as well as technological perspectives.
00:40:22
Speaker
So I have ah a question. It's sort of a two-parter, but I'm trying to get at what it is that I want to ask. I guess that where I want to eventually get to is if they have some, if you can piece together out of all their writing, some ideal that they're going for, like we know what they're against, but like, what what are they for? Right. So I want to get there, but on my way to getting there, I feel like a lot of them think that work is important and that technology
00:40:55
Speaker
is not really, I mean, I guess the way that they, forgot who puts it this way, but, you know, work has become such that managers figure out how to feed humans into the machine that actually is the one producing whatever good they're producing at a factory. So i guess, can you first tell us about what they think about the effect of technology on work?
00:41:19
Speaker
And then maybe walk our way, we'll walk our way into ah what ideal they're going for, what they really want. work is, the idea of work is completely tied up with technology in the sense that um in the sense that technology is an alternative, right?
00:41:36
Speaker
So work is a apart on part of human existence. It comprises all of the, you know, many of the things that we do to construct the material world and that is potentially being replaced by technology which is constructing you know material or all today kind of digital worlds. it's, you know, the reason why I think that they're interested in it in terms of the technology problem is that ah technology potentially throws out the window everything that we have formerly known about work and in terms of creating a world, but creating a material world.
00:42:18
Speaker
um But also, of course, the significance of work as something that is part of human life something that gives us satisfaction so it poses a threat technology the changes of technology poses a threat in in these different ways and so i i guess uh you know a follow-up in the middle of my two-part question uh is this kind of stressing like i mean i love working sure i love my job you know but Like, that's not all I do. You know, I, I, I play you the guitar. I love wine. Is this kind of an emphasis too much? Like ah if you, if you say, well, if you can't have autonomy at work, then your life is going to suck. Is that and going too extreme? what do What do you think about that?
00:43:02
Speaker
So mean the problem is the problem is not simply the potential elimination of work, right? so yeah um it's not just that we replace work with leisure time. and like That has its problems, right um significant problems potentially, um but that's not the only issue.
00:43:21
Speaker
The issue here is that if we are not engaged in you know building the world if we're not engaged in working we also don't get to choose what the output is.
00:43:36
Speaker
um So but you know we are then entrenched in ah more and more um technological and more and more determined world. and So that leisure time is no longer the leisure time where we are free to do whatever we want and and relax and you know um
00:43:54
Speaker
be autonomous, that leisure time will, these thinkers argue, will increasingly be eaten up with or be taken over by the demands of the technological world.
00:44:07
Speaker
So this is the sort of the problem. This is why eliminating work is not simply going to lead to 24 hours of leisure time. And there's also this issue of like not only work getting messed up but also like leisure time getting messed up right because there's also this idea of like technology is somehow transforming us into consumers which right i think that's i think you mentioned marcusa as kind of going pretty far in terms of having some interesting ideas when it comes to consumption like for example he has that really famous idea that like
00:44:44
Speaker
You know, the needs that we think we have are kind of manufactured by whatever the world we live
Consumers as Production Means
00:44:54
Speaker
in. we don't You don't really need the new iPhone, but you do feel like you need it because it's been kind of, but I don't implanted in you somehow or whatever. I don't know I'm just curious. like Yeah, like this whole consumption idea, this idea that like maybe workers is...
00:45:13
Speaker
being degraded because there's not as much control and creativity and autonomy. And then maybe also leisure time is being degraded. Like you're, you're just like a consumer. Anyway.
00:45:25
Speaker
Yeah, this is, this is, um, this is a really good example of a sort of reversal of ends and means that I talk, know, I've talked about, um, talked about already. So, um, instead of, you know, you might think, okay, well, as as a key consumer, aren't we actually, you know,
00:45:43
Speaker
we're getting this stuff. This is the end of the the manufacturing process, right? We're getting this, all of this nice stuff that comes out of it. But it doesn't quite work in that way, right? So for Markuser, the consumer is not benefiting from this, of course. The consumer is, is um as you say, these needs are being produced in the consumer because, you know, because the capitalist machine needs to produce.
00:46:08
Speaker
um So, you know, instead of consumers as, and ends as end consumers in this case it is uh consumers people as
00:46:21
Speaker
the uh yeah the means by which production technologization can can kind of continue in this cycle does does this idea kind of uh resonate with with what they're saying i i have this feeling that there is an ah yeah When I was in the private sector, there's like an inhuman pace to my my workload and it just stresses me out.
00:46:45
Speaker
And then when I you know get a weekend off or whatever, my goal is to recover so that I can be more productive when I get back to the rat race. Is that that line up with what they're saying?
00:46:55
Speaker
Which is a thought that I had. i'm not sure I'm not sure how to answer that actually. Yeah. yeah Sam says that I sometimes say nonsense. so' No, no, no. it's just it's not um It's not really something that is kind of, not really an idea that is talked about a great deal. and i mean, i well, so i think I think one of the reasons why it maybe isn't talked about a great deal is because um the pressures of technology are such that they, know, the technological system would rather transform technology
00:47:30
Speaker
seek to transform human condition, human needs, or what we can can live with rather than kind of submit to them. So in a way, you know, working, you know, working hard five days a week and then having time at the weekend to relax is kind of a pretty ah relatively humanistic way of thinking about this problem, right?
00:47:51
Speaker
The more kind of extreme version of that is how can we change humans so that they don't need that time off? And this is, I think, that the kind of idea that these thinkers are dealing with or the process that they see in place.
00:48:07
Speaker
ah Yeah. Speaking of that whole idea of changing humans, you know that's one of the kind of interesting um dimensions of your work. you know I mean, basically, it's like one way of looking at your book. I feel like it's like you know, you lay out the catastrophic idea of technology and then you kind of go into different ways that they saw technology as being destructive.
00:48:29
Speaker
And one of the You know, and and it's like some of the more, just some aspects of modern technology, its destructive aspects are kind of obvious, like, okay, the atom bomb, you know, that can like literally just wipe out tons of people, ah could potentially wipe out the whole human race if we like, we get in this like back and forth kind of situation.
00:48:52
Speaker
um So that's destruction. Then there's also kind of like environmental destruction, destruction of nature. That'd be interesting if we could talk about that a little bit too. But you also talk about, yeah, they they had this idea of like it changing human nature, changing what it means to be human being, I guess.
Technology's Effect on Human Nature
00:49:12
Speaker
Yeah, I'd be curious about that. Maybe we can touch on that a little bit. Like how how is technology altering who we are? So the idea that hum but technology changes ah human nature can be seen in in lots of different ways from sort of small and seemingly insignificant examples to kind of pretty radical and um significant cases.
00:49:38
Speaker
So, you know, one sort of And sort of small example, Gunter Anders talks about the way that TV changes kind of relationships within the family, because instead of sitting around a table, looking at each other and talking to each other, like we're we're looking at the TV, you know, we're all facing the same way and and not looking at each other anymore, looking at the TV.
00:50:00
Speaker
um So, you know, sort of the the orientation of our care and attention changes through the insertion of this particular piece of technology. um but of On a grander scale, Hans Jonas writes about the way that medical technology, life support machines have you know challenged the way that we conceive of death.
00:50:22
Speaker
So if anything is fundamental to human nature, it's our mortality, right? um And the clear binary between life and death. So the concept that a breathing metabolizing person can be you know considered dead in a living body is an astonishing transformation that is really, yeah you know, is entirely due to technology.
00:50:47
Speaker
um But I think that's, yeah, the most important ways in which technology changes human nature and our own understanding of human nature is is yeah the the switch between humans understood as ending themselves and the reversal of this hierarchy that these theorists fear, whereby we come to to serve technology rather than vice versa.
00:51:13
Speaker
I'd say that's probably the most significant and most feared possibility.
00:51:22
Speaker
So I think, um just so you know in the interest of time, we should move on to this bit about what it is that we should do in the face of this catastrophic technology. So is there a general consensus among these thinkers about what we need to do to kind of halt the situation? Or is there no no agreement whatsoever? Can you just tell us a little bit about that?
00:51:48
Speaker
That is... um Where there is agreement is on a ah pretty widespread pessimism that anything can be done, unfortunately.
00:52:00
Speaker
So what we don't really get from the the idea of catastrophic technology, the theory of catastrophic technology, is what is the way out? um They are sort of...
00:52:14
Speaker
on the whole remarkably deterministic about where they think technology will take us, um which is something that I think is ah a weakness this body of thought and I wouldn't necessarily agree with.
00:52:28
Speaker
there are There are a couple of exceptions to that. um Marcuse maintains a faith in the possibility of revolution. He thinks if there is a total revolution,
00:52:41
Speaker
that is but sort of political and social and cultural revolution, a total overturning of existing norms and ways of life. um Perhaps we could, know,
00:52:52
Speaker
could find ourselves in a situation where technology too, the practices of technology could be become more humane, could become more beneficial to humanity.
00:53:04
Speaker
um On the other hand, or on the other side, you have Heidegger who, and whilst about as far politically and um as you could be from Acusa, also has a sort of an idea of of revolution in thought.
00:53:24
Speaker
So if we can understand technology for what it is, if we can start to really see it um and see the way in which it's changing our world and how we understand the world, so and perhaps then we can come to yes um some kind of um yeah better utilization of technology.
00:53:44
Speaker
um But you know for but both of these thinkers as well, theyre even if these are possibilities, they're possibilities that we are some way away from if we're we're ever going to get there.
00:53:58
Speaker
so yeah So these really are extremely pessimistic truths about the future of humanity. So when it comes to a revolution, would it require like a back to nature kind of thing? I mean, would that be, if we if we assumed their position, what would a revolution have to look like? Would it have to be a kind of like...
00:54:20
Speaker
Um, I mean, you know, the Amish are doing it there. I'm in, I'm in West Virginia. I'm in Northern Hawaii, so I'm not too far. I see them do their thing every once while, you know, like, um, is that like kind of the kind of thing that would have to happen or else we'll just continue having, um, you know, such wonderful things as alienation, totalization and false progress. Or, I mean, like, yeah, I'm just kind of curious, like what would the revolution have to look like? What kind of features would it have to have?
00:54:51
Speaker
yeah ah Good question. So for Heidegger's revolution in thoughts, which is really a philosophical revolution, have no idea. I have absolutely no concept of what that would look like. What would you a new mode revealing? Whatever that would be. No one knows what that is. I think we need Heidegger to explain that one.
00:55:15
Speaker
Marqueeuse's concept of revolution is, I guess, a more... a somewhat more typical concept of revolution, the overturning of everything that we know of, as I say, political systems or social systems, but particularly a revolution in and kind of culture and values.
00:55:33
Speaker
That was where he saw
00:55:37
Speaker
if there is a revolution, that's where it's going to start. Right? So he's interestingly, he kind of describes himself throughout his life as an Orthodox Marxist, but of course he's not an Orthodox Marxist in the sense at all, because he is not interested, well, he's interested, but he, he's not prioritizing, i sort of a material revolution. He's really prioritizing transformation in values and not understanding of culture.
00:56:03
Speaker
ah Caroline, uh, you know, I, I, Sam knows this. I just finished up a manuscript. script When you write a book, it takes a little bit of your soul. But once you you know catch your breath and and and you know kind of ah know step back a little bit, there's always something kind that you kind of learn from it. and and that you know that it's it's like i don't know There's a realization that kind of just wasn't there.
00:56:29
Speaker
what was After you immerse yourself in in these writings, what was it that you kind of took away from all this?
Conclusion: Political Nature of Technology
00:56:38
Speaker
So I've already said, you know i'm I'm a little bit sceptical about the the extent to which this argument is made. i don't really want to be quite as cynical about prospects for humanity as these guys were, but and there's definitely...
00:56:58
Speaker
one of the arguments that is really implicit and and all of these and in all of in all of their writing, that I would definitely agree with, is the fact that and technology simply cannot be seen as neutral, right? Technology is political.
00:57:16
Speaker
It is intrinsically political. and And if we if we think of it as as neutral, if we think, oh, well, technology can be either good or bad, so you we don't need to worry about it as such, that is that is a problem, right? You have to take it seriously, as seriously as any other um, you know major political force in, in the modern world. And you need to think about it in terms of politics, in terms of power.
00:57:41
Speaker
Um, so that is something that's, you know, yeah, a claim that I'm pretty happy to kind of back these guys on.