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#21 Jayashri Bangali: AI in Education
36 Plays5 days ago
In this episode, we sit down with Jayashri A. Bangali, a researcher and educator whose work explores the evolving role of artificial intelligence in education—both in India and around the world. We discuss how AI is transforming learning through personalization, interactivity, and accessibility—but also raise hard questions about bias, surveillance, dependence, and deskilling.
We dig into Jayashri’s recent research on AI integration in Indian schools and universities, including key findings from surveys of students and teachers across academic levels. We also explore global trends in AI adoption, potential regulatory safeguards, and how policymakers can ensure that AI enhances—not erodes—critical thinking and creativity.
This is a wide-ranging conversation on the future of learning, the risks of offloading too much to machines, and the kind of education worth fighting for in an AI-driven world.
For more info, visit ethicscircle.org.
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Transcript
Introduction to Dr. Jayashree Bengali's Research
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome back to the ATEC podcast. In this episode, we're joined by Dr. Jayashree Bengali to talk about her paper, the social impact of AI on Indian education. It was published with Oxford intersections, AI and society. Dr. Bengali has over 25 years of experience in higher education and has authored many papers.
00:00:21
Speaker
And we're going to hear her thoughts about how AI is shaping the future of education in India and beyond. Enjoy the conversation.
AI's Role in Personalized Learning
00:00:43
Speaker
What do you think are some major changes that AI is bringing to education? ah Yeah, artificial intelligence. ah is bringing some remarkable changes to education, I think.
00:00:58
Speaker
So the but biggest one is the personalized learning. Because ah previously, I am working the education field and it's a class of, in India especially, it's a class of maybe 40 students or 60 students like that.
00:01:13
Speaker
But um due to this AI, so um instead of every student moving at the same pace, now AI system can now adopt lessons to individual needs.
00:01:24
Speaker
So slower ah where a student struggles and faster where they excel. So that is the, I can say, the... oh major change ah in the education system.
00:01:37
Speaker
And it's almost like having a personal tutor for every child. So this is the one I can say that major change. Another big shift is in the reducing the routine load of teachers.
00:01:50
Speaker
So because in India, there are so many things are involved as a job profile of a teacher. So not many admin things are involved in that.
00:02:02
Speaker
So tasks like grading, generating reports or tracking attendance can be automated. um So this is another, you can say, help or guidance.
00:02:13
Speaker
um major change that we can experience, giving teachers more time to focus on what really matters and guiding, inspiring their students. So they are getting, I can say, more time for the interaction with the students if they take the help of So so um This is the major changes.
Inclusivity and AI in Education
00:02:35
Speaker
And another thing i can share is AI making education more inclusive.
00:02:41
Speaker
So tools like speech to text or maybe text to speech or real time translations and are breaking down barriers for the students ah with the disabilities also and for those in multilingual classrooms.
00:02:54
Speaker
So these are the major changes AI is bringing to the education. That's great. would Would you isolate any of those as like the most important or most positive impact if you had to pick one of those different?
00:03:09
Speaker
Yeah, major change. I can say that. ah See, in India, actually, we just have started using AI in the field of education so with that we have not realized yet.
00:03:21
Speaker
ah But ah yes, so... I can say that rather than replacing teachers, AI is actually reshaping their role, helping them become mentors, um and while making education more personalized, inclusive, and accessible than ever before.
00:03:38
Speaker
So these are the major changes ai is bringing to education. So I guess I have a
AI vs Traditional Educational Roles
00:03:45
Speaker
follow-up question here. i Sometimes... um At least we've we've talked ah to to people who work on AI in in medicine before, and one of the things that they talk about is how you know sort of the promise of AI um in medicine is that you can you can automate all this stuff having to do with diagnosis and and all that stuff and prescription and all that.
00:04:08
Speaker
And you can spend more time as a doctor with the actual patient, being a human being. um and But it seems like it doesn't work in medicine, but you're saying it is having that effect here.
00:04:19
Speaker
um Teachers are able to, because they have ah spent, you know, less energy on creating the the materials. Now they have a little more and emotional energy to kind of, you know, ah for example, mentor. So you're saying that that that is being seen and in at least yeah in... Yeah, that's true. So definitely AI is helping the teachers and giving them more time to spend with the ah students.
00:04:46
Speaker
So thus interactivity with the students can be increased with the help of AI. Yeah, that's true.
Challenges and Misconceptions of AI in Classrooms
00:04:54
Speaker
Okay, well, um let's talk about some some ah concerns, I think, that are pretty widespread that you can you know kind of ah knock off one by one here.
00:05:05
Speaker
um But you know some people, when you when you first tell them, oh, you know I think we're going to bring in AI. I'm a teacher, right? And so when I tell them, going start using AI in the classroom, there's a lot of misconceptions about what it's for. And and you know I guess some people just think AI is for cheating, right? Yeah.
00:05:23
Speaker
um But let's let's talk about some possible um ah objections that someone might intuitively have. And let's start with this one. um You know, you're using generative AI like ChatGPT.
00:05:36
Speaker
or I guess you're you're discussing primarily that. um And what if someone says something like, you know what, these chatbots though, they're not going to be able to check for genuine understanding, only like someone with actual representational content, with someone with actual you know understanding, of only a human in other words, can do that. So how do you how do you feel about that line of reasoning? how and What would you say to them?
00:06:00
Speaker
From the point of view of teachers, um If the students are using AI, oh ah it's fine. But then ah they, in the my research paper also, I mentioned that they may lose their creativity or maybe the critical thinking.
00:06:16
Speaker
So that may be the major concern, I can say. And ah yeah, it is helping to the students. Students are also using AI for understanding the critical concept, a difficult concept, and ah But still um in India, because I'm talking about the um AI in Indian education, so still India, I think ah in the higher education, mostly students are using AI for their learning and you know for the education purpose.
00:06:47
Speaker
But at school level, ah the percentage of the students who are using AI for the education or for learning is, you can say, less compared with the hierarchical institution.
00:06:58
Speaker
But the still still concerns are there ah that we will discuss in the further discussions.
Personalized Assessments and AI
00:07:05
Speaker
So what about the issue of like, so you're saying, you know, we've we know empirically that or you're suggesting that we know empirically that AI is improving understanding. but How do you distinguish between improving an outcome and improving understanding because it because you know someone might be worried that, well, yeah, AI can obviously improve like the ultimate product, right? Like the student turns in a paper and thanks to using ai yeah, the paper is going to look a lot better.
00:07:39
Speaker
ah But you know are we sure that the student understands more? I mean, that that's the kind of thing a lot of people are worried about. It's like, yeah, this The thing you produced looks great.
00:07:50
Speaker
and It reads much better than it was reading before, but you don't understand as much before, and as much as you did before, because you know you didn't really do as much in creating. Anyway, so what what do you what do you say to those kind of worries?
00:08:06
Speaker
ah Yeah, students are getting help of AI and they are actually um and understand the critical so concept because
Policy Challenges and Informal AI Use in India
00:08:16
Speaker
ah ah ai provides the personalized learning.
00:08:19
Speaker
And that is the, I can say that the biggest advantage of using AI ah because... um In the class of, as I already mentioned, in the class of 40 or maybe the 60 students, it is not possible for a teacher to focus on a particular student.
00:08:35
Speaker
So if that student is weak in a particular subject, so that student is taking help of AI to understand the critical so concepts. And yeah, it's so it's a benefit, you can say, if students are ah using AI for their learning.
00:08:54
Speaker
Yeah, maybe I can actually also speak to something that Sam mentioned. i'm I guess sometimes when I hear people talk about the promise of AI in education and simultaneously voice that worry about like, what are our tests actually measuring, right? And so one thing that I sometimes hear or read in the literature um is that personalized or individualized tests are actually perhaps hopefully maybe better able to capture, um you know, whether a student has understanding then than are, you know, across the board, you know,
00:09:34
Speaker
identical tests for everyone, right? So by actually tailoring um ah assessment material to individual students, you might be able to get a better measure of what each student, how how they're doing, because it is individuated, if that makes sense. Does that resonate with you at all, Dr. Joshree?
00:09:52
Speaker
um Yeah, so individually we can actually ah measure it also, how ah more students are using AI. um But as I said, ah in India, it's not a regular practice.
00:10:07
Speaker
so Why? Because our government has not framed the AI policies yet.
Regional Variances in AI Impact and Usage
00:10:14
Speaker
So students who are using the AI for learning purpose, They are using, i can say that it's illegally.
00:10:22
Speaker
oh ah So we can't actually measure it. and so There is no way to measure it. ah How much ah students are using AI for their learning purpose, um for their education, or maybe sometimes it may happen that ah students are using the AI to complete the homework also in the schools.
00:10:41
Speaker
But teachers cannot identify it, means how they can identify that where the homework is um done by by or with the help of AI.
00:10:53
Speaker
So ah that is very difficult to measure actually. um But we should have some ah kind of standard policies in place.
00:11:04
Speaker
Then with the help of that, we can actually measure the impact.
00:11:09
Speaker
So Joshua, would you say that overall you're someone who is more, i mean, it seems like you're someone overall is more pro and supportive.
00:11:20
Speaker
You're excited. You think that AI and education holds a lot of promise. You wouldn't and advise a precautionary approach where we, you know, maybe exclude AI from education. Overall,
00:11:33
Speaker
you think you're pretty positive about um the prospect of AI in education. and would That would be fair to say, right? Yeah, ah so there is a um positive perspective in the um field of education if you you start visit ah using the AI.
00:11:51
Speaker
ah But the ah what I can say that, um yeah, so in and higher education, actually students are, above 18 students, they are using AI and they are getting its benefit also.
00:12:08
Speaker
So, yeah. that we are actually realizing the benefits of the use of AI, but ah ah we cannot directly measure it. That how ah how much is the impact of the AI um in the education system.
00:12:25
Speaker
So that is actually one of the hypothesis framed in my research paper. So of if you have gone through the paper, so main hypothesis, I can just mention here that...
00:12:39
Speaker
The main hypothesis is ah about ah about the use of AI ah in in Indian education. So ah what the analysis said is that in Indian education system, the use of AI is ah just started and it's know the lack of, I can say that, of formal AI policies.
00:13:02
Speaker
of Students are using it, but ah we cannot identify that whether students have used it or not. And it's an informal um way of using AI for learning.
00:13:13
Speaker
So that kind of thing is happening in Indian education. So that was the major actually and objective of my research paper. um So it was started by the survey.
00:13:27
Speaker
So I did a survey of the learners, um so students from 9th grade to PG, postgraduate. And then um it was ah just to understand the perspectives of the learners to educators. So I interviewed the educators also, teachers also, um and students also. And then the entire andness analysis is presented in the paper.
00:13:50
Speaker
and outcome of this is um i can say that uh the entire um analysis says that if you just want me to figure out the percentage of this uh i have this yeah so i can just mention the percentage of this is the The sub-hypothesis of the study was ah there was no significant differences in learning benefits of AI among the students of different academic levels.
00:14:24
Speaker
So I have a did the survey of the students from grade 9 to PG. So it's a higher secondary students and undergraduate and postgraduate students are also involved in the survey.
00:14:37
Speaker
And the outcome of this is that more number of college students were using AI tools for better learning experiences. Although over 85% of the students reported using AI, they experienced improved learning.
00:14:50
Speaker
So this is the analysis of the entire research. In India, many students from grade 5 onwards now um have their own mobile phones. ah So it is now...
00:15:01
Speaker
In India also, it's a common thing, especially in urban areas, which makes it easier for them to use AI. But i in India, in rural regions, among underprivileged students, um that's not the case.
Integrating AI: Infrastructure and Policy Challenges
00:15:17
Speaker
So without access to the device, they simply cannot use AI effectively. And this creates a clear digital divide and can influence the benefits of AI in learning. So this actually, um I can say that in India, because of the diverse communities,
00:15:33
Speaker
well diversity can say diversity in the atmosphere. So, in rural areas, oh they are facing many challenges. The challenges are starting from the having the device, access to the device, access to the connectivity and also the one of the major challenges yeah challenge is related to the power supply.
00:15:57
Speaker
So, even in rural areas, they don't have the continuous power supply. Without ah that, it's very difficult. So, ah this is the ah analysis of the my research paper and So i just want to be back yeah I just want to note a couple of things that you said that are also relevant in the American situation, which is where Sam and I are.
00:16:20
Speaker
Yeah, but because maybe the difference between the developed country ah and developing country, that may be the reason, maybe. Yeah, I mean, well, it's still the case that I'm not, you know,
00:16:34
Speaker
Although a majority of ah of young people do have access to sometimes mobile mobile devices, not everyone has reliable access to the internet here, um which is maybe surprising to some people, but and it is the case.
00:16:47
Speaker
um Also, um it is, at least in my experience, um the case that you can tell when students see, I can always tell when students are cheating, but so I'll say that.
00:17:01
Speaker
um But I can tell when they're cheating with the free version of a generative ai yeah And, and it's a little harder to tell when they're using the the paid version. So there, there's similar ah there's a similar, i guess you called it ah a divide um here that ne that's, ah you know, not identical, but some of it kind of rhymes with the American situation yeah So this is something that we we ought to worry ourselves about as well.
00:17:28
Speaker
Yeah, correct. um You mentioned so those some those are some of the features of of India that are um you know something that we have to kind of be aware of as we're looking at your research.
00:17:41
Speaker
um So given these concerns that are specific to the you know Indian situation, um You also mentioned that it is primarily higher ed people that are benefiting from, from your, from AI. Did I, is that too much of an overshadow?
00:18:02
Speaker
According to the surveys, right? Cause we're basing this idea of the benefit, right? On self-reported surveys, right? Isn't that anyway? But, but yeah, continue. Sorry. Yeah. So this is actually, uh, based on the survey, what I did and, um,
00:18:20
Speaker
It is actually the responders are from the urban areas, mostly situated in Maharashtra. And yes, I have to expand this information.
00:18:34
Speaker
data size actually but yeah this is the outcome um that higher education students are using AI more than the higher secondary students yeah on so slightly and slowly ah it will go to the school education also um but as I said due to the lack of policy the adoption of AI is hindered in Indian education
00:19:00
Speaker
and Yeah, maybe we could highlight maybe you know some of those issues that you mentioned that are going to be more specific to um a developing country versus a developed country in terms of education. So there's going to be those kind of infrastructure gaps related to yeah limited more limited access to various things like electricity, internet,
00:19:24
Speaker
modern devices right there's going to be the cost barriers related to hardware and maintenance but um there's going to be those language issues you know because you many ai systems are you know trained on english and yeah and you know and students in rural or you know um like a more minority language context might be excluded um And anyway, yeah, do do you want to you want to talk a little bit more about that? Like just how um there are specific, you know, there are certain issues that are going to be specific to developing nations in terms of incorporating AI.
00:20:08
Speaker
Yeah, if we consider the... ah
00:20:13
Speaker
ah As i you said that most of the contents are in English. So if you consider the case of India, so we have a diversity in languages also.
00:20:24
Speaker
our accent is different. ah So dialect is also different and it differs from region to region. So I can say that more than 30 languages or we usually talk in India.
00:20:39
Speaker
So that is also the another, you can say, barrier to use this AI. So ah it's not necessary that all the languages or human beings or maybe students in India, they are well versed with the English.
00:20:58
Speaker
So that is also the another um barrier I can see, in especially in India, actually.
00:21:06
Speaker
And did you find that, so like you were saying, you know, you just recently for um for for Oxford, you did this, recent recently you did a research project that was, and your findings were published with Oxford.
00:21:20
Speaker
And yeah, the the the research project included a lot of surveys. um You surveyed not only learners, not only students, but you also surveyed educators. and And you've already kind of touched on some of the really interesting findings, such as the fact that, you know,
00:21:37
Speaker
you know, ah that secondary students are not using it as much as higher education students, right? At any rate, you know, we'll get into some of the very interesting findings you you did there. But um did you find this issue related to language, this concern related to language? um ah and Yeah, in terms of AI being, you know,
00:22:06
Speaker
primarily trained on English, did that concern relate to language related to language, did that come up in in the surveys at all? Is that something were asking about? No, no. Because as I said, my sample data is means all the responders are from the urban area.
00:22:23
Speaker
Oh, right, right. Okay. They are ah from the English medium schools. So um from
Global Perspectives on AI in Education
00:22:28
Speaker
the ah research analysis, this is not the outcome, but it's a general observation, actually.
00:22:35
Speaker
It's not the outcome of the research. And that was not ah one of the hypothesis also. So that point is not analyzed in the entire research.
00:22:47
Speaker
and just It's just a general observation. Sure. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Okay. Well, we maybe we can go into those hypotheses, right? So I think you had like three hypotheses that you were trying to test with these surveys, right? Do you want to go through each of them? i mean, you've already kind of indicated them, but um maybe we can just kind of just so it's super clear for the listener, you know, what were the various hypotheses that you were kind of testing with these surveys? Yeah.
00:23:13
Speaker
yeah So um the main hypothesis was ah that the social impact of AI in education is already being felt and there that adoption isn't limited by infrastructure, awareness or policy.
00:23:27
Speaker
And in the research study, ah this hypothesis was rejected. So ah the outcome of this means, however, the analysis showed that this isn't the case.
00:23:38
Speaker
ah Not all stakeholders, especially students and teachers are actively using AI in their learning or teaching yet. Since the government hasn't really ah ah released a formal AI policy for education, adoption in India is limited.
00:23:54
Speaker
So ah this I already mentioned that ah we have to realize the impact of the use of AI in India yet. So students and teachers are using AI, but often informally, with some even worried that they could penalize.
00:24:10
Speaker
So that is the another Yeah. so so sorry Real quick, sorry. just So when you say it hasn't been realized yet you're not saying people haven't yet, come you're not saying people haven't yet come to appreciate just how much AI is impacting You're saying the potential for AI to transform education has yet to be fully fleshed out. Like there's a lot more potential.
00:24:36
Speaker
is is that kind of what you mean by yeah the social impact? can you Can you kind of just elaborate on that? Yes, yes. um ah Because as I said, though in the literature to survey also, this is from ah one of the things I have mentioned, though it was actually...
00:24:55
Speaker
developed country like Singapore, US, or maybe UK, they have started using AI long back and they are realizing this effects. So if I just give you the ah data of this, that um sure in Singapore, AI is closely linked to ah to economic planning and the workforce development. In US, strong public-private collaboration and culture of innovation have driven the widespread option of AI.
00:25:23
Speaker
In Australia, or also, they are using AI to address regional disparities. In China, also, AI supported adaptive learning as well as institutional planning and this thing. But um oh most of the current developing countries like us are struggling to integrate AI in education.
00:25:40
Speaker
And the main challenge, I already mentioned this, include the lack of infrastructure. limited internet and device access and absence of the clear policies.
00:25:50
Speaker
So these are the main issues. And yeah, so that's why I can say that or whatever I have, um so yeah hypothesis so that was not the case in the internal education system. so So would it be helpful to like, i mean, it's super interesting. Like, is it kind of like, there's a difference between informal,
00:26:16
Speaker
usage of in education versus a more formal integration of AI within the system of education, right? Like, you know, building it into the curricula, making AI standardized tool, government board kind of approval or oversight of the AI, um teachers being trained on how to use AI, I don't I guess, can you kind of flush that
Guidelines and Training for Effective AI Use
00:26:47
Speaker
out? so as are you saying basically it's like, yeah, AI is being used in India, but it's, you know, at least in certain contexts, but it's just a lot less formal. Is that maybe one way of describing what's going on? Yes. Yes. So um more I meant to say the same thing that as a
00:27:07
Speaker
these formal policies are not in place. So, ah many institutions are also, um means when I interact with the educators and the owners of the institutions.
00:27:19
Speaker
So, what I get understood is that, um as I said, there are no formal policies. So, they are also afraid of that if they suppose...
00:27:30
Speaker
oh give the instructions to the students that you can use the AI, then it may ah so it may just disturb the entire education system. So they are also not giving any ah or not developing any formal AI policy for their institution also, because we are waiting for that.
00:27:50
Speaker
But ah yes, ah recently, ah India just announced a regulator for AI. So that thing is happening. So the National Artificial Intelligence Technology Regulatory Authority.
00:28:02
Speaker
So this is ah more than a policy headline. And soon the AI policies will be framed for the use of AI in India. So it's the beginning of the rule that will decide how every business, hospital, classrooms, oh bank, um in every field can or cannot use AI. so this um So the AI policy for education field also will be released ah soon by the government. And then officially, um oh students and also teachers can start using the AI for teaching learning purpose.
00:28:38
Speaker
ah So... So that's that's yet to written get to be developed, right? And and someone will be ah rolling that out soon. But um if ah based on your research and and and given everything that you've you studied and and researched and learned about you applying AI in the classroom, do you have any...
00:29:00
Speaker
and like if you you know If you could whisper into the ah the the minister's, whatever that person's the name is, um ear, and you can make make suggestions, be an advisor, what what sort of AI use policies would you recommend? Yeah,
00:29:15
Speaker
yeah so well the AI policy actually... can be implemented in three or we can see um pointers. So first is we have to develop the clear national guidelines for AI in education, including ethical use, data privacy, and equitable access.
00:29:37
Speaker
So thats it that is the first point. The second is about the procurement. So we have to ensure schools and in universities cities have the right infrastructure and affordable AI tools.
00:29:48
Speaker
um So, every student can benefit. And third one is ah very, very important ah because usually teachers, but teachers um ah If teachers are not ah very well or very known to the ah AI tools, then it's difficult for them to use it for the students. So t teacher development or teacher training ah is very important. So we have to train educators to ai to use AI effectively, not just as a tool, ah but for automation, but to enhance teaching, support creativity and guide students in critical thinking. So these three, I think, ah pointers should be there in the ah policy.
00:30:29
Speaker
Yeah, in your policy, I'm thinking in particular, i'm I'm being very selfish right now because I'm an educator, right? I'm in the classroom. I'm in the front lines, I say. um And so, you know, the the thing that most stood out to me is that we we need teacher training for how to actually use AI effectively. um We're trying to do that at my school. It's not working, to be honest, not yet.
00:30:54
Speaker
ah So I'm actually going to start an informal club to try to get a bunch of people put together to start working on this but one thing that um I repeat with look sorry Roberto can you just real quickly what what are some things that would that you would learn in there like how do I guess what what's the like can you just speak real quick what's the difference between effective and ineffective usage of it by a teacher like what would those things be I'm just kind of curious Sam are you asking me or Dr. Josh I don't even know Actually, both of you. Yeah. Yeah. What what are some of like have that? Yeah. Roberto, you can go first. Like, yeah. Can you just flush out like effective versus ineffective use of AI
Emotional Dependency and Social Skills Impact
00:31:30
Speaker
by teachers? What, what, what does that look like? yeah Shall I ah first answer?
00:31:35
Speaker
yeah Yes. Yes, absolutely. yes Save me. So, yeah. that's right just let times the yeah So I just wanted to share ah my experience ah with the teachers because, um,
00:31:48
Speaker
I have worked with the school teachers also and the professor also. So first thing, when you just... ah insist to the teachers that you have to learn this new thing and you have to um apply this thing have to use this thing with the students then first reaction is a kind of hesitation to learn the new things so that is my observation it is not the finding of any research but that is one of the observation and then ah you have to force them on it it's mine too by the way my my observation too by the way so oh
00:32:24
Speaker
ah So it is the same over the world, I can say. So ah that thing, I think of we have to force them to learn a new technology, new things. And then ah after learning and after expertise, they can use it for the students.
00:32:41
Speaker
So that is, I think, one point we are struggling for. ah Rather, all of us are struggling for. Sure. Sure. oh yeah i ah Before you go ahead, I just wanted to highlight one challenge that we have observed, actually.
00:33:00
Speaker
ah It's ah emotional dependency of the AI um because of my ah outcome of the research project is that it has not been used very much in India, but still...
00:33:18
Speaker
still students are using AI. And now we can observe the impact of the AI also. So one of the challenge we are ah we may face or we are facing rather is the emotional dependency on AI.
00:33:32
Speaker
So you you also might have heard about this, I think. um It's a worldwide, I think, a challenge of this. So I can just share one thing with you.
00:33:46
Speaker
Yeah, so this is about the emotional dependency. So we did a survey actually in our own institute, Kaveri group of institutes. ah We have ah six, seven schools and two colleges we run.
00:34:00
Speaker
So ah with the school students especially, we did the survey. oh It was based on the emotional dependency and questions related to that was there in the survey.
00:34:12
Speaker
And after analyzing, the outcome is ah that students are relying on the AI so much and emotionally also they get involved with this.
00:34:26
Speaker
And oh Means um I can say that ah because of this means why this is happening that also is the quite clear scenario. ah It might be in all over the all the countries because parents are now ah getting busy with their works and parents.
00:34:45
Speaker
These are students, they don't have friends or colleagues to share their feelings. And now they are going on asking the emotional questions to the AI. And that emotional dependency is also increasing nowadays.
00:34:59
Speaker
So this is, I think, the biggest challenge ah we may face in future because of the huge ah use of AI. Okay, interesting. So you're talking about people sort of maybe preferring AI companions to peer interaction,
00:35:21
Speaker
um that kind of thing. And then, you know, we can think about the weakening of kind of like a teacher-student bond, yeah we can think of maybe also about you know loss of resilience. I just think about how frazzled you know people can get or I can get when you know you don't have your phone, you lose it, your phone's not there. And it's like, I'm imagining people just not feeling very strong, feeling very resilient when they don't have an AI assistant there to help them solve a problem.
00:35:58
Speaker
ah So that's really interesting. Okay. Emotional dependency on AI. That's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. No, one point i can just add to this. and In future, what may happen if the increase we go on ah using AI for every and each thing in our life.
00:36:18
Speaker
So recently I came across a story on the LinkedIn. and So it was about a big company. So their sales had dropped in a particular month. And they couldn't figure out why um it was happened.
00:36:31
Speaker
So they started digging into it and you won't believe what they found. well For that particular month, they had actually banned the use of AI for sending emails. And as a result, the quality of communication with customers dropped and so did cells.
00:36:50
Speaker
So this really shows us how dependent people have already become on AI in their everyday work. So of I'm little bit afraid about this if we don't use AI responsibly.
00:37:04
Speaker
So that is the major concern, I think.
Critical Thinking and Creativity Concerns
00:37:07
Speaker
So, I mean, yeah, well, yeah, maybe we can talk about concerns a little bit more, right? Like, so you found in your research, in your surveys, right, that 80, I think it was like 83, 84% of educators believe AI reduces creativity and critical thinking.
00:37:25
Speaker
ah And I think students also were super, I don't have that number, right? Let me see. think it was up there. I think it was in the 60s or something.
00:37:38
Speaker
Yeah. people are So maybe basically, you found among people that they were very worried about a loss of creativity and critical thinking. um i'm just you know I think we could also connect that to de-skilling, just loss of various skills in general. So for example, yeah the email to interact with people.
00:37:57
Speaker
um I don't know. I mean, how worried are you about that? Because like i feel like... you know Yeah, plus, because now, I mean, I'm also thinking about like, maybe we are underestimating how much people will use it, like how often people will use it.
00:38:12
Speaker
I mean, yeah, where are we going? are we Are we sure we're not going off a cliff here? i don't know. so
00:38:20
Speaker
ah Yeah, I think I have mentioned the percentage also, like what I got from my research analysis. have I think ah just now I have explained that ah because, ah yes, the one of the and outcome of the research is that more than ah fifty sixty percent students, they are afraid of ah losing their critical thinking.
00:38:50
Speaker
So that we found in the survey. So, and why? or Maybe because, of see, ah in the um IT industry also, now the students are getting the ready-made programs from the AI.
00:39:05
Speaker
And ah before ah thinking or thinking, doing anything, they if they start using the AI for each and everything, then it's very difficult. And that is the one of the outcome of the survey I did.
00:39:18
Speaker
So ah more than ah fifty sixty students, are they are afraid of losing the creativity and critical thinking. So that was ah one of the question in the survey. And that is the analysis.
00:39:30
Speaker
So, yes, they are afraid. And educators are also afraid ah of losing the connectivity with the students. Because of if students are using AI for learning purpose, then ah they will continue with the ah AI and they will not interact with the teachers.
00:39:55
Speaker
So, that is the concern raised by the educators also. And another thing, educators ah ah raise the issue about losing the same thing, that critical thinking and this emotional dependency on AI also.
00:40:08
Speaker
So that is the outcome of the survey. So I have a comment and then I'll give you my my question. um But I do see in my students, at least when they come to office hours, it used to be the case that I've been teaching for 12 years, think.
00:40:24
Speaker
um And so, you know, conversations would happen and, you know, conversations are a mess. And that's what what I like about them. You just get to improvise and, you know, it's it's a very improvisational kind of thing.
00:40:36
Speaker
um But now students um sort of clam up a little bit faster and kind of, the you know the I feel like quality i quantitatively, like if I were to have measured it, the conversations get shorter and then they just run out of things to say or something.
00:40:50
Speaker
So I feel like that skill, yeah, yeah it it is being lost. Um, but so here's my, my, my, ah my question. It seems like then teacher development is pretty key here because we, we want to have, I, I'm just speaking for myself now. We want teachers to be able to teach students how to use this technology, A, but also B, not become emotionally dependent on it and C, not rely on it for everything and d still,
00:41:22
Speaker
learn critical thinking and we can talk about what critical thinking means, but um we yeah I guess what would teacher development, and you can you can you know give your hypotheses and and we understand that you haven't done the empirical ah test for this yet, but if you want to give any hypotheses up as to what the development, teacher development would look like to address these particular concerns that we raised. Yeah, so as I mentioned, teacher development and teacher training is one of the important aspects when we start using AI formally.
00:41:58
Speaker
So when the AI policies um will be in place in India, that is the first and major point that we should highlight.
Balancing AI Use with Traditional Skills
00:42:06
Speaker
ah So ah that of one point is that responsible use of AI is very important.
00:42:14
Speaker
So where we can take the help of AI and how much of we should depend on the AI. That is very important because see, nowadays, as I given you one of the story on the LinkedIn. So for each and everything, if we start taking help of the AI, then it will become difficult for the students.
00:42:33
Speaker
I can give you one more um example of this. um Why the responsible use of AI is important and why should be linked with the ah teacher training.
00:42:44
Speaker
oh Now, when we give the advertisement ah for a particular position in the institute, then ah we receive a lot many applications. And if you just go through the resume or the application, it just, ah we can see that it's a fantastic English um is used in that.
00:43:04
Speaker
And for the English medium schools, the first criteria is they should have the fluency in the language. So, of Looking at the application and resume, resume yeah, we call the person for the interview. And when the person starts talking, they realize that um he she doesn't have that fluency.
00:43:23
Speaker
So a responsible use of AI um with the teacher training is very important. And that should be highlighted.
00:43:32
Speaker
So um I guess this is that this is a very... um i'm I'm asking you to get very specific here because i almost, you know, we're talking its about students, but really it's also about me too, you know, because like I use AI for emails. Am I losing that ah skill for writing emails, right? So is, do you think there's like a certain percentage of emails that I should not use AI for so I can not use that skill? I mean, what specific guidelines can we give
00:44:04
Speaker
teachers and ourselves about responsible use of AI? Is there is like a daily limit that, okay, that's enough after after X amount of hours?
00:44:15
Speaker
Yeah. Actually, we should limit the use of AI because, see, if you go on using AI for each and everything, mean so, for example, emails. So well ah the framing of the mails is in a particular format if you just give the matter to the AI.
00:44:33
Speaker
So it will elaborate a little bit. um If you just give the three points, it will ah but elaborate into the maybe five, six points. And that is the usual thing. And actually, this is the one of the point that we can identify the text is from the AI and because it is a little bit elaborated.
00:44:53
Speaker
So, yeah, so at least 30-40% we should avoid use of AI, for example, writing the mails or maybe the other things.
00:45:05
Speaker
Then only we will start thinking that how I should frame the mail. And yeah, so we should limit the use of AI for every day.
00:45:20
Speaker
But it's interesting how, right, it's... i'm just thinking I'm just thinking about um how you can spin a scenario where the adoption of in education leads to catastrophe. as in no know i'm just ah but um'm not I'm not saying that's likely.
De-skilling and AI Dependency
00:45:41
Speaker
I'm just saying you can imagine...
00:45:44
Speaker
right In other words, if you're doing a cost benefit analysis right of of adopting versus not adopting AI, you have to think about um different possible outcomes, naturally.
00:45:58
Speaker
um you know and um One of the possible outcomes of adopting AI is massive de-skilling. so that's the That's the catastrophic outcome. right loss of creativity, loss of independent thinking, emotional dependence, so on and so forth. Now, it's interesting to think about what would prevent that from occurring.
00:46:23
Speaker
And i guess the reason why i bring this up is like, if it's us limiting ourselves, if that's the guard, if the way we prevent the catastrophe is by self-limitation,
00:46:38
Speaker
That's not good. That means the catastrophe is very likely. You know, so and I don't know. I just, I just feel like, um ah for some reason I'm getting worried. I mean, obviously you can think about like other things that could naturally limit the likelihood of the catastrophe. You could talk about, you know,
00:46:55
Speaker
whatever, like there's there's going to be incentives against that by institutions, exams, accreditation, you know, college admissions. They're going to actually want people to have skills. So you can imagine they will counter um various de-skilling phenomena by whatever. Anyway, I don't know. i guess, but Yes. i just just kind of I don't know if any if either you guys have any thoughts about that, of like how you know what would make the the the the catastrophic outcome ah less likely? you know how How could we avoid that outcome?
00:47:31
Speaker
oh Yeah, but I will still stick to my point that we should restrict the use of AI. oh Why? Because ah we actually experienced this maybe after a few years.
00:47:47
Speaker
this my This is my opinion. It is not based on any research or kind of thing. This is my personal opinion. ah Because... All of us will rely on AI for each and everything.
00:48:00
Speaker
And then we will ah may ah lose our thinking capacity also. That may happen. We don't know what will happen in future, obviously.
00:48:11
Speaker
But in my opinion, yes, ah ah we should restrict the use of AI. Now, recently, if you have read, you must have read about this in China.
00:48:21
Speaker
So ah it was a national ah ah level test. So they have banned the use of AI, just switch off the connectivity of the entire nation.
00:48:35
Speaker
Then they conduct the exam and then they again switch on the connectivity. So we are afraid of this because if you are taking any online exam or anything,
00:48:48
Speaker
They can just have the answers with the help of AI. So how you can test the ability of the person. So in future, definitely we are having these concerns and we have to think about it.
00:49:05
Speaker
That we have to restrict the use of AI. Yes. i Yeah, so um I'm with you on on restriction. that this You made me think of like five things right now, so thank you. But I'll only mention one.
00:49:17
Speaker
um so it might be, that you know, yeah we're were Sam and I are Americans, right? So it might be the case. that you know Americans just have like, you know we i hear your your proposition, like we we have to kind of self-regulate, you know but Americans have impulse control, Dr. Yashir. There's no way we can we can make ourselves not do it. So um so so and so that you know it might be the case that different countries um adopt different approaches to AI based on kind of like a cultural psychology or something like that.
00:49:51
Speaker
and And let's just say we take something like the American case where there's low impulse control and we want to use it all the time. How how do we restrict AI? I mean, do is the only way to do it to the Chinese way where it's just like the state says no?
00:50:08
Speaker
Or how ought we to restrict AI? Shut it down. Yeah. Turn it off for a few hours every day. Great actually highly impossible to restrict the use of AI. ah oh It's just a kind of imaginary thing that in future, ah if we've found that because of the use of AI, certain things are happening and at that time we wanted to restrict it, but it's very difficult to restrict the use of AI ah because um ah they have a device um in their hands, they have the connectivity and they have the
00:50:42
Speaker
help on the AI. Whatever we ask to AI, the AI is answering it. So ah it is very difficult, though I said it, but it's practically it's impossible.
00:50:56
Speaker
We can't restrict the
Job Security and AI Skills
00:50:57
Speaker
use of AI. But yes, ah we can experience it. Jasher, you're making me worried. i'm not going to lie. You told me we have to restrict it, and then if you're telling it's impossible, I'm getting little bit worse.
00:51:08
Speaker
Yeah, no, no, it's a silly this oh This is my opinion that we should restrict it. But how we are going to restrict it, that is very difficult, actually.
00:51:21
Speaker
this In my opinion, we should do that. But practically, it's difficult. See, we only ask the hard questions here at the ATEC podcast. Yeah. yeah I have one more question before at least before I surrender and just, ah you know, give into the impending AI apocalypse. um My question is just about this idea that sometimes I feel that students overuse artificial intelligence primarily because they don't know what critical thinking is. They think that they have it. It's just like innate and it's in there somewhere.
00:52:00
Speaker
And so it's okay if I use this. But so I sometimes think that the solution is to teach people how learning and critical thinking actually works. That, I mean, I'm using the cognitive science of learning here, that like critical thinking is just like an emergent property that happens when you know a lot of background information.
00:52:20
Speaker
So you still need to just... put a bunch of things in your head. And that that's the way to be. I mean, I obviously oversimplified it a lot, but I want to get that message across. And when people understand that, maybe that will kind of trigger something so that people don't overuse AI. Does that?
00:52:39
Speaker
yeah yeah Yeah, that's absolutely correct. So it may happen in future if the people realize this thing. Yeah, that's true. Sam, just wanted for the record that she said that I'm right. And that hardly happens on the show. It's true. That's the first time that's happened. Yeah. If you realize the importance of critical thinking, yes, obviously they themselves will restrict it.
00:53:04
Speaker
good So we don't and have ah need to to have the policy in place for that. Yeah, that's true. Real quick, we can pivot to like, i we we don't have much time left, but I don't know. Do you do you have any thoughts about the whole issue of like um job loss? You know, you found, I think it was 47% of educators worried about losing their jobs. What yeah what what do you think about that? any Any thoughts about on the policy level, how that could be? Anyway, I don't know. Just any any thoughts you have about that?
00:53:37
Speaker
So ah in my survey, that was the one of the questions for the undergraduate and postgraduate students, that whether they are afraid of losing the job opportunity in future. And many of them, or rather, think around 50-60%, they are afraid of losing the job opportunity in future.
00:53:57
Speaker
Because ah nowadays also we are experiencing that ah there are layoffs by the students big companies, I can say. And many of me variety of the work can be done with the help of AI. So instead of having the four employees, they can do the work with the help of only two employees.
00:54:21
Speaker
So yes, um oh there is a possibility of losing the job opportunities in future. And the students, teachers, educators, everybody is worried about that.
00:54:34
Speaker
So that is a real concern actually in future. And ah now also we are um observing this thing around us. Because of AI, many of us are losing their jobs.
00:54:48
Speaker
Yes, that's correct. Would you say that, um is there a chance that those who are the most ah well-versed and capable with AI might have the most job security in the future?
00:55:02
Speaker
Yeah, might be ah because ah the skills are very important nowadays. If you have the particular skill, then only there are job opportunities.
00:55:13
Speaker
So if you are well versed with the AI tools, on then it might possible for the students to get the jobs because in future, I think the that may be the prime requirement for the job.
00:55:27
Speaker
Yeah. So that is also true. So ah the basic thing is that students have to um acquire this knowledge of AI tools also in future to get the good job.
00:55:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:44
Speaker
Great. Well, Jayashree, any last things before we close out? Anything you want to highlight or maybe, you know, future research you're doing? Anything you want to highlight at this point? um Yeah, so what I can say in the conclusion, so I can say that AI in education is a double-edged sword.
00:56:05
Speaker
So on the positive side, it brings personalization, accessibility and innovative learning tools. But on the flip side, are there are concerns also um like unequal access, lack of clear policies, um possible loss of creativity, and even ah emotional dependence that we have talked about.
00:56:25
Speaker
The way forward is balanced using AI to support learning while keeping human connections, empathy, and critical thinking at the heart of the education, as you mentioned.
00:56:36
Speaker
So um I think in conclusion, of we should have a balance of use of AI oh for each and every purpose in our life. And yes, let's shape the future of education where AI empowers, but human inspire.
00:56:52
Speaker
So that with this note, I can conclude this. Wonderful. Thanks, Yashree. Thank you so much for coming on, sharing your research, your insights, raising concerns about access and creativity and quality. You've given us a lot to think about. And so, yeah, we're really grateful for your time. So thanks. Thanks for coming on.
00:57:12
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you so much for inviting me for this podcast. And ah yes, I enjoyed the interaction with both of you. And thank you so much.