Transcript
Speaker: Hey, this is John McCray with the Sloth's Party Podcast, and I'm here with Matt Cage. What's up? So quick bio about Matt Cage. Matt Cage runs one of the biggest black troupe collectives, not just in Chicago, but what, in America?
Speaker: We don't claim that we don't say the world. and why It's a all cis man, black, cis man. Yes. All cis man. To my knowledge. Black dance collective that has really taken over Chicago bookings everywhere.
Speaker: And today we're going to have a quick conversation about gender, black masculinity, black queerness, and how do we have better men in general? And how do we break men across the sexuality and the gender spectrum and to like better human beings?
Speaker: You want to give a quick rundown? Oh, also former pro current pro wrestler. Yes. Do you want to? Former? It would have been like a little bit ago. Came back. It's crazy. Do you want to give a quick introduction to yourself or do you want me to just jump right into questions?
Speaker: Oh, you kind of nailed it. I mean, I guess like I like to call myself I've recently adopted the term the overall entertainer. Okay. um Just because using the word in my career, in my life, we'll go with in my life, I've done so many different things. So like we started with pro wrestling and then found my way into nightlife. um got into what you were just talking about, OnlyFans content creator, on kind of in the regular content creating world as well in some way, shape or form back into pro wrestling. So I've said overall entertainer because I feel like I've
Speaker: I am a jack of many trades and try and try and master all of them. So you, you did it all like throughout your career. hope there's something else out there. Is there anything that you're like looking to do or, um, you know, so while I was on my way here, uh, was poured into by someone who recognized me from a video that recently went viral of me.
Speaker: at a wrestling show chewing out a racist fan. And that person was pouring into me and telling me that I need to not need to, but like, you should do this so that your voice can be heard in this area of, of life. And, um it wasn't this,
Speaker: What was that? What was this? They say you should do that. Kind of. i don't want to say being an activist ah might be a far extreme, but.
Speaker: Also, maybe using my voice more and finding a way to utilize that in a more prominent way, other than just being an image. That makes a lot of sense. And I guess let's talk about identity real quick and like how that correlates and interacts with everything that you do.
Speaker: So you are a pro wrestler famously pro wrestling as a community that loves black people and queer people, you know, yeah I was about to say, wait a minute now.
Speaker: Uh, so how was getting into the C one, were you, were you openly queer? ah did you know you were queer one to get the people in the community, know you know, you're a queer and how was navigating that the first time you wrestling career?
Speaker: Um, so I did not come out until 2015 and on 27 years old at the time. going i twenty seven years old at the time um So by that point, I had been wrestling for some time. I started pro wrestling career in 2007 when was 18. So
Speaker: so that first very major portion of my life, but also my wrestling career were kind of like always at odd because I was in the closet.
Speaker: and like you said, wrestling famously loves black folks, loves queer folks. Notice I'm shaking my head. this Um, yeah, it was not a good time ah for the human ah inside of me because i wasn't able to find out who I actually was. I wasn't able to like fully be myself um or wasn't able to.
Speaker: i was choosing to not because of the fear of how I would be perceived. um At one point. Man, at one point in wrestling for me, I would find myself oftentimes as like the only black person on our show.
Speaker: Um, I can't speak to the queer people on the show because I'm positive that there were a lot of closeted queer wrestlers.
Speaker: Um, I actually, I know that there were a lot of closet career wrestlers because after I came out, my coming out story went viral, um, in 2015, because at the time, all me that was just not as frequent of a thing. you know, um now if someone come out like no one not saying no one would care, but it would not garner the same reaction.
Speaker: When my story went viral, a lot of wrestlers were like sliding in the DMs, not trying to hit, but to be like, hey, like me too. And a few of them have come out since. There are probably some still in the closet to this day.
Speaker: And so, I mean, it's is rough you know because you... It's a very hyper masculine form of entertainment. You know, it's not a real sport. It's sporting adjacent.
Speaker: You know, it's a form of entertainment, physical theater. But in that form of physical theater, you know, we're wearing very little clothing, you know, and ah a lot of people probably feel like some type of way. of you I don't want this person to feel uncomfortable because I'm giving them a body slam. Where does your hand go right here? You know, so um it's it was tough um navigating it was hard but i eventually got to a point where i was like i can't you know i uh trigger warning to those you know there's a lot of uh points where battling depression would get real serious for me and tried to you know commit suicide twice at one uh at various different points and eventually just got to where was just like i don't think i can do this anymore know had to i had to
Speaker: figure out a way to fully live my authenticity. and the first domino of that effect was just coming out. I think there's a couple things that I want to touch on. And one, thank you for sharing that with me.
Speaker: Number one, there is this running trend that like for a lot of queer men, wrestling was the first place that they get gravitated to because it has that theatrics and almost I don't want to say theater, but over the top performance that we see that a lot of times queer people are drawn to, whether it's the arts and creativity and for a lot of queer men, either who are participating in it or queer men who are viewers, there's not a lot of spaces where men can uphold masculinity while also being artsy and having an over the top persona and like get into the performance aspect. I was actually talking about this on our earlier podcast.
Speaker: But for me, I gravitated towards Shawn Michaels as a kid. Yeah. And like looking back on it now, it makes sense. But like as a kid, his whole persona was that he was ah cis men stripper and he had the long hair and he was a little bit flamboyant. He wore the chaps and the the bedazzled, he had the dangly earrings.
Speaker: You know, I remember as a kid, crazy, crazy, especially because of what it looks like now. But um i remember there was this one specific like VHS. I never really watched wrestling because I was attracted to guys, especially back then. they The wrestlers then do not look like the wrestlers look down. Just saying.
Speaker: um Good thing that I'm not going through puberty today watching wrestling. But I remember Shawn Michaels like pulling his like tights down and there was some pubic hair showing. And I was just like, like my little 10-year-old mind, was just like, oh my God. like um But he was so flamboyant and that it definitely was a thing. So I can understand that you know watching it.
Speaker: Um, the, the showmanship was a huge, was, was the thing. Like it was so entertaining, you know, like it was so, it was crazy to always say, like looking back that was before, like what we have today, like everything is so much more visual today, like this LED screens, all these different bells and whistles and pomp and circumstance.
Speaker: Back then, if you like go back and watch stuff like it really kind of looks basic in comparison, but it was so over the top and that's what I was I was. And so like seeing that growing up and like the masculinity or whatever, all of how it then translated to me once I got into it, um it was interesting because I knew that i was gay, even though I was in the closet.
Speaker: um And I've always just been me. Like, I don't feel like I was ever trying to be masculine, you know, um quote unquote, but i just I was me.
Speaker: And like figuring that out and like how to like navigate that can be and at points was different. I think that's a really interesting thing that you're getting into and actually what I was going to start the conversation with because I think for a lot of cis men who want to perform a version of ho of masculinity, a lot of the times art and creativity and color runs contrary to that.
Speaker: um Wrestling is drag. We know that. I'm going to say this MMA, the UFC, the walkouts, a lot of that is drag. A lot of that is performance. And you see even like a lot of sports with the ceremonies and e colors. And you see that men use these avenues to express themselves because this is the only time and the only place where they feel that they can express themselves in a way that they're allowed to keep their masculinity and they're allowed to, I going to say stay inside that prison, but it's, there is part of the prison that's comforting because like, this is the box that society puts you in. You don't want to break it out because it's a long experience.
Speaker: And even going back to what you're saying earlier, there's tons of queer men ah in sports around the world. I mean, not to bring heated rivalry into it, but that was one of the things that he rivalry cast were talking about was all the DMs that they got from queer men from different sports who are like, I feel seen here. Yeah.
Speaker: I feel that this show encapsulates who I'm am and who I'm trying to be. However, we didn't see a lot of men publicly like so or publicly identify as queer, either in the athletic world or outside of it.
Speaker: Even after we knew that there was a big response to heated rivalries. Yeah. And I guess like my question to you is why do you think that one masculinity runs in contrary to expressionist expression so much.
Speaker: And two, why is there this idea that masculinity and queerness run in us together? And I think that's why a lot of. Cis men, cis straight men don't want to come out as queer because they feel that they lose the privileges of masculinity under the patriarchy, which is sort of true.
Speaker: I think, I mean, to me,
Speaker: it's It's multi-layered because everyone comes from a different background. You know, um, some people come from religion, you know, religious households.
Speaker: Um, some people come from, you know, is their culture, you know, these various different things. Um, some people are just afraid, you know, and, or all of it. and I think what you,
Speaker: you know, I, I can't speak for, for other people. I will speak in a way that I feel like that might answer that by speaking just of my experience, like in my household, um, slight background without deviating too much. Like I, I grew up with, you know, on my mom's side of the family.
Speaker: Um, On a longer timeline, my mom and dad, who were never married, on but my dad is openly gay. He came out in my preteens.
Speaker: um But growing up, my mom, I would always hear her say these anti-gay things. I would hear her talk about my dad, you know.
Speaker: he's such a fag like bob but that was before he even came out. You know, they were friends growing up, you know, but she she knew, you know, whatever the case may be. um I remember being a kid and seeing like RuPaul on TV because at the time, like in the 90s, RuPaul was on everything.
Speaker: um I remember hearing my mom say that, oh, there go that fag again. light out and data that Like I just remember hearing these things like anything and I feel like at at that young age, youre you shouldn't know, quote unquote, what gay is in a negative way, or maybe, maybe especially at that time, maybe not even know what it is at all.
Speaker: um But I knew that the way that that was being spoken about. I said, I might not be that specifically. I might not be RuPaul, a drag queen. I might not be, you know, flamboyant, feminine, you know, whatever.
Speaker: ah Again, longer timeline without deviating. One of my brothers, my my dad has ah three other sons from his later marriage.
Speaker: um My brother Corey is also gay. But even at a young age, he was very feminine, very effeminate. you know He would put a shirt on his head and you know do that. That was never me. I never had a desire to be effeminate in that way and like pretend like I was a girl or anything like that.
Speaker: But I knew even at a young, I'm six five, six years older than him, i remember being like, Hmm. I, I think, you know, but also, so I'm like, I see him, but I, I am not like that, but I knew that that is what I was as well. And I would hear my mom and the household i grew up in say that that was wrong. then translating it into, you know, the masculinity why people are afraid, i feel like it's just really the background, you know, like,
Speaker: um For me, it was a lot of acceptance. you know i um You want your family to love you. You want your mom to love you. you know You want them to care about you, respect you. So me denying myself of my authenticity, my reality, I think stemmed a lot from just fear of acceptance. And I think other people in their own way, shape or form feel the same way um based on their background. A lot of times I don't think you know And that's opinion.
Speaker: i don't think that a lot of times it even necessarily has anything, especially in the present day, I don't think it has anything to do with like perception of the sport anymore you know or whatever form of entertainment that you're in um where you know the masculinity, quote unquote, matters. you know There are people, you know we talk about heated rivalry.
Speaker: they were winning, and you know, do all this stuff and it doesn't matter, you know. So I don't know. i think it's the background that really is the effect. To me, that is how I feel. you know like I think everyone has their own story and obviously everyone is different, but a lot of it I do think is rooted. you know If it's a religious thing, you know like religion tells you a lot of religion you know tells you that it's wrong to be that.
Speaker: And so people remove that from themselves, but you can't deny who you are. you just can't. And I think couple of things that you touched on that was like really important to reinforce.
Speaker: One is the idea that
Speaker: Gendered behavior is crumbed into us at such a young age. There's a mom who went viral on TikTok before she privated the video where she was like talking about raising her child right.
Speaker: And basically she had a bag of straws and her child asked for the pink straw. And she was like, no, you don't get to have the pink straw. You can have blue or red or orange so because those were boy colors, but you don't get to have the pink.
Speaker: ah straw because getting a pink straw well she's playing will make you gay i think the reality is it would make you feminine and i think that there's an inherent misogyny where anything that takes a person who's perceived as a cis man and feminizes them is a bad thing because we associate femininity, especially femininity when combined with somebody who is, is perceived to be a cis man as negative. So think of, don't want to cut you off, but think, have you small, small to go, I'm gonna get back to that point.
Speaker: Have you seen the recent stuff with Raven, Simone talking about, you know, well, what if they, were what if all the characters were green? okay So stupid, first of all, but Think about this in this way.
Speaker: I'm always, make it make sense to me, right? Like, make this make sense. Pink being a girl or feminine color. who
Speaker: What paragon of virtue decided that that was the girl color? What if at some point when that was decided, like, it's a boy, it's a girl that's blue or pink,
Speaker: What if it was just the other way around? Would that change anything? What if, and I was joking about this one time before, like I grew up on the Power Rangers, the original one, the original season of that old.
Speaker: The pink Ranger is a girl. The blue Ranger is a boy. a Spoiler for those keeping up, the original blue Ranger is also gay now, or not now, but he's out gay person. But what if the Blue Ranger was pink and the Pink Ranger was blue and she was still a girl?
Speaker: Would it change anything? No, because the gay boys would still love the Pink Ranger because she was a badass girl kicking ass. She was kicking the putty's ass. you know what saying? Like, but it's just the color that someone came up with and said, this is a girl color. It doesn't mean shit, you know? Like, color is not gonna make you gay.
Speaker: You're just gay. And that's where like I really think is the perception of cultural norms are one, completely societal created. There is no biological reason why. i mean, if you have somebody who's a super genius, they can probably backtrace it. But why pink is associated with femininity and blue with masculinity.
Speaker: Even for me, like the first time I wore a skirt and I was like, i I waited, even though I was throwing like queer raves that was like pushing people to be fluid, pushing people to experiment with their own gender identity.
Speaker: I was scared to wear a skirt to that rave that helped cultivate with my partner and at the time from my friends. Why you, why were you, what was your fear? Because I had to work through it and I was one scared of breaking gender norms.
Speaker: And two, I was scared about being perceived as unmasculine. And I had to wait until I was in London. i went to a rave in London and I wore a skirt for the first time.
Speaker: And I was like, wait a second, this, this piece of fabric, this leather changes to nothing about who I am. It doesn't make me any more or less masculine or unless I wanted it to make me less masculine. Did you feel em empowered?
Speaker: I feel not empowered, but stupid. I felt stupid about how this was something I wanted to do for a long time, but that cultural conditioning shamed me in not doing it.
Speaker: And I was imprisoned by upholding an arbitrary view of masculinity that was making me depressed. And like talking about the color pink, I didn't wear anything pink until 22 years twenty two years old ah I was scared. I was, what if people look at me, where, what does this mean about myself to wear the color pink, a pink t-shirt, absolutely harmless, would not wear it because I thought that I was doing something morally wrong because of how deep that conditioning was into me.
Speaker: And I want to go back to a little earlier, what you were talking about. That was like really, really interesting. I think my gender and sexuality, i couldn't figure out what I was because I had a cousin who like stayed with my family and one, the people around him, like around my cousin, rather family or friends, uh, treated him different because he was very visibly queer. He was openly queer.
Speaker: He was also feminine. And I knew that like, Hey, I don't have any desire to be feminine. And my association with queerness, especially on men is that if you're a man and you're queer, there's a desire to be feminine. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just knew that it wasn't me.
Speaker: And it took me, i think another 13 years to realize like, oh fuck. I can still be masculine and I can like boys, i can still be masculine and like be queer.
Speaker: And the other thing that like happened to me was I didn't realize that men, especially black men could be bisexual because my relationship with Karina's was I knew that there were bisexual women.
Speaker: I knew that there were lesbians. I knew that there were gay men, but I didn't know that I was, that men could be bi and I was watching, but I don't know if I should be men in this online.
Speaker: I've been watching bi porn since the age of 10 and I couldn't, my brain couldn't put two and two together. i've never thought in my head that like, Were you in ah a position? i feel like a lot of people, I hear this a lot. Um, cause part of my,
Speaker: i I don't want to say i regret it, but like I in some ways I regret it now. um i remember when I first started coming out, I used bisexuality as my like filter into my full gay. You know, i was like, if I tell people that I'm bi, will be slight like they won't hate me as bad. Soft as like, yeah, you know, like i still.
Speaker: Um, um I feel like a lot of people like what I would always hear, what I still sometimes hear from like like bisexual people, um and I don't know if this is your journey as well, but like people saying that it doesn't exist.
Speaker: Like that's not real. Like you're either gay or you're not. And I think that's so unfair and stupid. Make it make sense. You know, like how can you how can someone comment on what your sexuality is gay straight by pansexual uh asexual like uh demisexual lots of sexual whatever sexual you are if you are not that sexual how can you comment on that you know was that like your journey like did you ever get that a lot was like you're bisexuality no no because like i didn't know mine was even further i didn't know that bisexuality in man existed
Speaker: You thought it was only in porn? I thought, i to be honest, I didn't even figure it it was in porn. My brain was so deep in the social programming and like the cognitive dissonance that I would see bisexual men on my porn screen and like find a way to justify to myself that either they're gay men who are straight for pay or straight men who are gay for pay and not that like...
Speaker: they might just be enjoying what they're doing. Right. And I think that like it wasn't until I was 20 years old, i was hanging in a bisexual friend group and I was like talking to somebody and I was like, we're talking about Frank Ocean and they were like, I was like, Frank Ocean is gay. And they were like, well, we don't know that he may be bi. We just know he's queer. And I was like, man, can't be bi.
Speaker: And they were like, what the fuck are you talking about? And I was like, men can't be bi. And they were like, look at Ford. And Ford was right there. He was a friend in a friend group. And they were like, Ford is bi. And I was like, you're bi? And Ford was like, yeah, you didn' know that.
Speaker: We're all bi. And like my brain just exploded. Like all these dots started connecting. But again, like you were talking about before, there's this idea of like,
Speaker: mass knowing that you're hyper masculine in a world that strips masculinity from queerness and then like you go through this journey of not being able to put the pieces together yeah so putting it back to you what was your journey of realizing that you can be that you can wear a skirt be queer be masculine and that like all of this can exist in the same person simultaneously It is a journey.
Speaker: um i remember when, like I said, I came out in 2015 and when I came out, I had not ever even I did i did not know what being gay meant or look like other than knowing that sexually i've wanted to like I was having sex with men.
Speaker: Period. I had never been to a gay club. Actually, that's not, I had been to, had been to a gay club once and was mortified to be, um, when I was, I had just turned 21. I was living in Springfield, Illinois at the time. And this guy that I was very discreetly seeing, um, took me and his gay friends. And think, I want to say we drove to like Champaign, maybe I could be wrong, but we drove somewhere out of the city to go to a gay club. And I remember just like mortified to be there.
Speaker: So uncomfortable. And I was like, we have to go. Like, I do not feel comfortable here. He's like, you're in a safe space. Like no one is going to see what he's like. You know, what you're not even from here. Like no one is going to recognize you.
Speaker: Um, After that, I never stepped foot into a gay club until I moved, like until I was moving to Chicago. i hadn't even moved here yet. And I started applying at the gay clubs six months after I had come out of the closet.
Speaker: my first time being in a gay club extended was my first day working as a go-go dancer at the Lucky Horseshoe in Boys Town. And I had lived in Chicago for exactly 14 days, so two weeks.
Speaker: And i remember being a go-go dancer and I was one of the ones um that everyone thought was a straight, like one of the straight boys working there.
Speaker: i would love to see footage of me my first like weeks working there. I'm sure I was just stiff and rigid. crazy looking, but everyone thought I was straight um because it was giving so strong of masculinity because that's the world that I was in.
Speaker: And it took a long time for me to like
Speaker: break that wall down. um and I had to do that by just being around queer people, you know, and continuing to be the the version of me that you see here before you today.
Speaker: um But then learning to not be afraid to try new things. You talk about you wearing a skirt. I remember the first time i wore, nevermind a neverminus skirt, we got there later.
Speaker: i remember the first time that I wore, ah I'm wearing one right now. The first time that I wore a crop top was crazy to me. For what reason?
Speaker: It's my belly. It doesn't even make any sense. Like I'm afraid to show my belly button to wear like First of all, i'm worried they were they were more visible in 2019. I want to say it was Pride Fest 2019 was the first time I wore crop top.
Speaker: I had already been out of the closet for several years at that point. I'm working as a go-go dancer. I'm fucking and sucking whoever I want to. I'm doing all of these gay things. Was in a relationship mortified to wear a crop top.
Speaker: I, you know, like it don't make any sense, but I remember I did it and I was just like, it's fine. Like what I'm, the all of this stuff is just in my head. It's all fake. It's all made up masculinity. Like once I realized through like these little things, like, okay, what are the, what are the things that I'm working on top?
Speaker: What is my fear? Where does it stem from? Um, when I wore a skirt for the first time, I said, what does it matter? It's still me. like It's a piece of clothing. if I remember um I was bartending and go-go dancing at Charlotte's at the time.
Speaker: It was one of the gay clubs in Chicago. And um they did they do a thing called the Turnabout Show. So they put all of the male presenting you know performers of staff in drag, and the the drag queens you know show up as as you know boys.
Speaker: um I got in drag, just a large muscular man a dress and wig, you know, not, not any type of softness in this, this body other on the inside, I'm soft on the inside, but just out there stomping around in some heels or whatever. And I was like, it's still like, it didn't bring out some new, you know, effeminate energy in me that like I was hiding or shying away from it Literally misbehavior is this right here. about
Speaker: So like once I realized some of these things, you know, I'm just like, just be you, you know, like I broke down some of the barriers like and and realized how, like for lack of better term, how fucking stupid it is to just not take a deep breath and exist.
Speaker: um Coming from wrestling. In wrestling, ah if you are a wrestler And you and I are talking, which is funny because we're both Blacks alike.
Speaker: Everyone is brother, you know, like or bro, you know, like, oh, bro, like this, bro, that or a wrestling is very like brother. Like that was you hit me real hard out there, brother. Like, then I come to the gay club and everything is bitch and girl. I remember working like when I first got to the club, like I'm go-go dancing. One of the bartenders, his name was also Matt.
Speaker: And he was like, bitch, like, and I remember talking to my friend at the time and I was getting so, so worked up because this man kept calling me bitch.
Speaker: And I was like, where I come from, that is disrespectful. Like if he calls me a bitch one more time, like I'm ah like, I was like tense, like ready to fight. And my friend was like, girl, relax. And i was like,
Speaker: stop calling me like I am a man like I'm he was like girl you do it boss and now I'm like girl relax take a deep breath to think about where I was then like and then saying it out loud now like I laugh because it's so stupid you know and I get and you know I understand too like there's a lot of dialogue sometimes about like obviously respecting people's pronouns so like in reality like you died Okay, if I call you girl and you don't want me to call you girl because of what reasons you don't identify as a girl. Okay.
Speaker: If it is not in an insecure, you know, like way of whatever the case would be. And you actually like, if I call you girl, maybe, you know, you were a girl and you have transitioned and you don't want me to call that because that is your true. understand.
Speaker: If call you girl and you just feel like it's just you're just you're just like so like, girl, relax, it's okay. So like once some of those things started like just lining up and I would say like, I was telling my friend earlier, it's like when I was a kid and my mom told me it's like, if something doesn't make sense, question So once I started questioning the decisions that were keeping me from my own happiness, that's where my masculinity and my femininity and like, although I'm like in all co-exist, like Yes, I know there's at the root of it, you know, there's a visual representation, quote unquote, of mask and femme whatever.
Speaker: But in reality, you know, to me, like the way I look at, I'm like, it doesn't, it's not real. It's all made up. It's fake. I'm a fully gay human being. You know, I'm a gay ass man.
Speaker: i
Speaker: masculinity. someone would say, oh, you're a masculine gay. Okay. Yeah. Well, I suck and take dick too.
Speaker: Is, is that feminine? I don't know. Is it a shameful thing where like they'd talk about the femme gays? Like, well, you're a bottom. Okay. Well, I know masculine people who cannot take dick and bitch and moan about it all the time.
Speaker: So if I say, well, you're acting real feminine right now. but you presenting that like, i don't know, make it make sense. Cause it don't make no sense to me. So it's not real. Like we're taking dicks and booty holes and deep throat and whatever the case might be. It's all, we're all gay.
Speaker: It doesn't matter. You know? Weirdly enough, I had a situation this couple weekends ago, I was in Berlin and like for the first time, like somebody used a vibrator, a toy on my butt. And I was like,
Speaker: Okay, this is my first time ever having a more bottom, like more of a bottom row. And I was like, I don't know what this does to me. And this is me two weeks ago.
Speaker: And I was like, still trying to figure out what this says about my masculinity. And I remember I was talking to the friend I was doing it with and I was like, well, was still doing it in a dummy way. And they were like, why, why did you have, he was giving power bottom with the toy.
Speaker: Oh, the thing is I wasn't, was it but I needed a way to like justify it to my own masculinity. And I think that's the next step for me to figure out in my own journey is like, how old are you?
Speaker: I'm 27. Shit. Almost at 24. haven't been 24 and guys. You're claiming it as young since the by administration. 27 and I was just like, so think of it. Think about it in this way. Okay. im You're 27. So like I just turned 38 and you're 27. No one was putting anything in my butt. Right.
Speaker: And I'll tell you that. So you're further along in your journey than I was at 27. And I just turned 38 and there are still things that I am learning today that, you know, even a year ago i was not into.
Speaker: And I think that it's just, and it's always going to be an ever evolving journey. Um, there's things that I used to be into that I'm not into anymore, you know? um What I would say in your case whatever, like regardless of masculine or feminine is like, I will ask you like, did you enjoy it?
Speaker: And that was the thing where like, I realized I did enjoy it. I did enjoy it. And I also enjoyed it in like a submissive way. I enjoy like letting someone, letting him take control, controlling my pleasure, kind of turning my brain off.
Speaker: And like, if you would have asked me in a moment, I think I could have admitted to that. But then a couple minutes later, the shame sets. Shame is a strong word, but the cognitive dissonance of like how I want to view myself versus this experience that I just found pleasurable have friction with each other. And I needed to find a way to justify to that part of myself.
Speaker: Why i enjoyed it and like kind of right frame the narrative. And I was like, oh, well, I was still, I was still dominant. I was still in charge. And it was like, no, you weren't. You weren't. And like, i he challenged me on that. And like, he,
Speaker: call me out there. we were at the club talking about it. And like, I didn't like it at first, but then I was like, you're right. You're so right right now because i did kind of just let go. I was not calling the shots there. I was not in charge, but I still needed to deal with that part of my own masculinity.
Speaker: Something. So I definitely had a lot of I just was having a similar conversation, like literally less than 24 hours. um Beyond masculinity, i am a naturally dominant personality. Same.
Speaker: And.
Speaker: you know, um sexually um away from the masculinity, like a big part of me, like I remember, ah you know, I started as ah as a top, you know, and I remember when, you know, there would be times where I, as a ah masculine person, I'm attracted to like, if you're fine, you're fine.
Speaker: Masculine fit or whatever. um I would want the booty bed. ah I remember, let me use this, put the microphone on the table. Um, no, I remember, you know, like I would be, um, into other masculine people, um, other masculine women.
Speaker: I'd have those moments where I'd be like, well, I'd love to bottom for him, but i that's just not happening. Like you're not getting in there. And, you know, you talking about and first time he had a toy used on you.
Speaker: was the first time had my ass eaten and I was just like, I'm never getting my dick sucked. And I was like, oh, it feels good. And just licking my balls. I love that. And it was a dominant person. And when I tell you, just rolled my feet up and I was like, whoa. And like, now I'm pinned and he started eating. And I was like tense. And I was just like, no, like this all balled up. Like, ye and I was like,
Speaker: Hmm. I said, well, wait, I said, okay. Like legs. i was like, okay. And then I'm like, now I'm up here feet above my head. Um, getting eaten out. And i was like, well, that felt good.
Speaker: ah You know? And I'm like, what the same, the same thing that she said. like, well, what does that say? Then fast forward to like, when I start bottoming and. I never allowed myself the true pleasure, you know, in my early days of versatility. Like, um, I never really allowed myself like a full pleasurable experience because I had that, you know, well, and what does this say about me thing?
Speaker: Yeah. but Like fast forward, like once I finally let that shit go and I'm like, how many people yeah I'm sorry. Anyone who might watch this, that is back in the day. I'm so sorry.
Speaker: Come find me now because the pleasure would be there because I was blocking myself for, I was blocking my blessings. And I think the S the more that you just allow yourself to like, just enjoy the things that you enjoy and allow yourself the space to like,
Speaker: Learn what you enjoy. Try new things. Try it again. You'll be like, I didn't like it before. Maybe it just was with that person. You know, I don't like toys being used on me.
Speaker: I always say it's a tongue, a dick or nothing at all. Do not finger me like, but
Speaker: Someone has fingered me before and I was like, well, that felt good. and Someone has used a toy on me once. I was like, that not once, but like, you know, there have been people who used toys on me. I'm like, okay. And like, you're not just fucking like trying to get me opened up. Like you're here to please me.
Speaker: That going back to like the, the dominance and the submissiveness, you know, which I feel like a lot of people attach sometimes to masculinity and femininity. i am a masculine person presenting all those things, right? Whatever you, you perceive me as, but I also like to submit.
Speaker: And i feel like in some ways submission is one of the most masculine things that you can do because you're allowing, you know, you already know who you You're allowing someone else to take the lead and and have confidence in who you are to like just enjoy and then be present.
Speaker: And, but I can't submit to everyone. I, it just is not a thing, you know, and um to go to your point, you know, of of the shame, I guess, in some ways, you know, that does exist.
Speaker: That exists even away from like masculinity. Like people are like, feel shame about like their kinks and stuff, yeah you know? And it's like, for what reason? Like before we started recording, we were talking about fisting. That's not for me.
Speaker: It just isn't. I don't, like when I see it, it it turns me off. But who am I to shame? Like that brings you pleasure. So fist away, you know what I'm saying? Like do what you gotta do. Go get that, that tub of boy butter and fucking put the glove on and fist away. That's your king.
Speaker: You should not feel any shame about it. So like in your case, you know, like the, there, there's a beauty in, in navigating all of the space, the masculinity, the, the submissiveness, the dominance, you know, um,
Speaker: and all of that. You just have to allow yourself the space and the grace to explore that. and then if you do or do not enjoy it, you know, think about like, well, again, maybe just the person, you know, maybe it's just the the situation, you know, and maybe it's the space. Maybe it's just where you're at today.
Speaker: You know, like. Try again. What did Leah Dush yourself off. Try again. And like, i want to make one last point and then like shift to talking about nightlife for the last 15 20 minutes.
Speaker: But I think that this conversation, like you said, applies to everyone. There are so many people since doing these raves that come to me and was like, I've always been into this, but I've been scared to do it because of shame or the idea of societal rejection.
Speaker: We had somebody recently tell us, like they DMed us and was like, hey, I just followed you guys for the first time. I don't know if i'm ready to come to a party, but just following this Instagram account was a big step for me.
Speaker: and I think that like, You see a lot of like straight guys too, when you talk to like dominatrices and they're like, there's a lot of men who are like so ashamed to come to me and say that like, I'm a switch or like I played with my ass the first time and like I enjoyed it, but I'm so scared to tell my partner that I'm so scared to admit that to myself.
Speaker: And it's so silly. the male G spot is in the booty hole, y'all just saying. and And a lot of people know that and they don't want to, You block in your own pleasure. Blocking your own pleasure. Your G-spot is in your booty hole.
Speaker: So let someone play with your booty hole. Just saying. On that note, we do need to talk about nightlife. This is supposed to be an episode around nightlife, but I'm really happy about where this went.
Speaker: Last 15 minutes. One, I want to thank you because I moved to Chicago looking for queer people, but specifically queer men. I lived Milwaukee and there wasn't a lot of representation of queer men out in front in that city. And I came here and House of Cage was the blessing that I didn't know that I needed.
Speaker: And it was seeing black queer man across multiple different body sizes, different levels of projection of masculinity, different level of like flamboyance that I was like, I allowed me to be more.
Speaker: It told me that my masculinity, whether queer or not, whether genderqueer or not, could be more because all of these people that I get to see here allowed me to do that because I never had that representation before.
Speaker: Even in like celebrities and in the public eye, like little things like young thug wearing a dress was like, Oh my God, that meant the world to me. Having Frank Ocean and like hearing Frank Ocean, seeing multiple pronouns in this love life meant a lot to me, but nothing impacted me more than seeing the house of cage boys perform and seeing them on Google stages.
Speaker: So one, if you want to walk me through how
Speaker: Your experience, one being like a black performer and voice songs, I'm guessing like back then it was probably very still not very white happy, probably even less diverse than now into. How have you changed lives with House of Cage, but also how has House of Cage changed your.
Speaker: Man, that's a really, really good question. um Before I answer it, first of all, thank you for for saying that. um in the lead-in this podcast, um you had in some ways expressed some of that to me and i receive it. I really do.
Speaker: um
Speaker: Make a thug cry.
Speaker: It means a lot to me to hear that from from you um because you were in Milwaukee you know and came here and saw that and
Speaker: to know that it reached and does reach people outside of the family. means that my vision or what I saw meant something and mattered even more than I intended initially.
Speaker: What you just said for what you did not have for yourself, I also did not have. We talked at the beginning about, you know, my initial beginnings, you know, as a pro wrestler, a white man sport, uh, a straight man sport. So like, you know, when I came here and started working in nightlife and all these things, the landscape of, of Chicago's boys town community was drastically different y'all before the pandemic.
Speaker: And.
Speaker: Drastically different before the pandemic and not stress enough all caps. Um, i wanted, I needed my chosen family.
Speaker: Um, I needed that and it's very much the field of dreams. If you build it, they will come. And i built it, you know, and it, it, it isn't just one person, you know, like I've with the house of cage, you know, how it kind of began was from my competition that I was hosting at the time, which is all male competition, all male performance based competition called cage fight.
Speaker: Um, and we were in season two of the competition. Um, I was co-hosting with the season one winner. It was Jonathan. And Jonathan and I had known each other since before the pandemic.
Speaker: um His partner, Breon, was doing season two. I had known Breon since before the pandemic. arm Then we had few of the other boys. We had Jay and Sandy. We had Dario. We had someone who was no longer a part of the house um at the time that was in it.
Speaker: um We eventually got to season three. We had my ex um that was in it at the time. had... we had We had two-turned Tony, had Devontage, and then like and with Daria, the pieces of the puzzle started coming together. I saw the way that we just call all kind of interacted with each other.
Speaker: And my view was just kind of like, everyone seems to be very friendly. like We're all getting along. you know and I remember just telling everyone, was like, we should be intentional about getting along, you know, like we should hang out more. And I remember I created a group chat it's for us to, you know, we had the group chat for the competition, which was supposed to be more about the business part of everything, you know, about to be, it's supposed to be about the competition, but it would break down and everyone was just joking and having fun. i was like, okay, let's have a text message when that's for us.
Speaker: And then there's that. And then it just kind of grew. That was in the beginning part of, like it was like February of 2023. It um it was never in my mind, never meant to be what it became.
Speaker: I just wanted shows of family and I felt like that was necessary. I felt, and we also, you know, most of us were already working. on And I was like, it's there's power in us being outside and being seen and succeeding.
Speaker: And me at the time being the only male host of anything, having my own productions, having my own space to put on. you know I was hosting an all-Black day party at the time called Uncaged. I'm creating for the Black culture. I'm creating for the Black community. So that Progress Bar was not the only option for Black ah a black experience. Now I've got a male performance competition in this world where it's drag dominated. There's drag queens everywhere and me a creative and having come from a different form of entertainment being like, y'all have to pay me more. Like what else on the flyer? Like all this, I'm fighting for these things. I was like, there's power in all of us as black men to do the same thing.
Speaker: That was it at the beginning. The house thing then grew and it became more than what it was. So it meant a lot to see that representation means a lot to hear it in the aftermath because that power matters. You know, the power of a personal, like having a black chosen family, it matters. The power of being seen and being understood matters.
Speaker: But then to also answer your question of what did that give to me and what does it mean to me? I got my family, you know, and there's always ups and downs, you know, like any family, you know, but what I'd receive from that is the intention behind it.
Speaker: You know, like there's a lot of navigating stories within our family and the intention is there. And that is a beautiful thing. And that matters to me.
Speaker: Um, but then to see, you know, what else does it mean? What did the family, you know, what did the house give to me, you know, in the grand scheme of things, you know, we're sitting here having this conversation because of the house, you know, on a longer timeline.
Speaker: And I'm very blessed and fortunate to have people like you that express that to me. um as a Black queer person to at one point not have what I have now and you not having at one point what you have now to find that representation from something or someone, um that is one of the most rewarding things that I could possibly ever ask for. It feels like that's something. it does make me emotional because
Speaker: I was looking for my chosen family and found it. And then other people have found what they have needed because of it. And, you know, without having any type of imposter syndrome, being able to stand in what
Speaker: um I had played a ah big part in bringing together, um it means it's the world to me. you know It means the world to me. and my therapist at one point a couple years ago, he said, have you ever thought that the child in you is proud of how awesome of a person you have become? And i had very bad imposter syndrome at one point about a lot of the things that I was doing.
Speaker: So what does it mean to me? It means the world to me you know because the things that you're saying matter, you know, and we're able to sit here and have this conversation about all of these topics, which at one point, the closeted gay boy in me was not having these conversations that we both need to have.
Speaker: And also at one point, which I expressed to you when you asked me to do this podcast of like, we've been around each other, you know, off and on for the last little bit when we see each other outside and you're working, I'm working, whatever the case may it's, you know,
Speaker: running, intersecting, what's a ship's passing in the night. So to be able to like sit down and have necessary conversations with people who I can see myself in and vice versa, you know we're black, we're navigating a world that is not set up for us to succeed.
Speaker: That is necessary for me. you know So what do I take from the house and and all of those pieces? I take that, you know and that's where i rest in, this is it's love.
Speaker: I think we're coming up on an hour. So like for a parting statement, I think it just speaks to how much visibility matters. ah I don't know when this is going to be released, but we're recording it during Bi Visibility Month.
Speaker: And one of the lowest percentage of people to publicly identify as queer is bisexual men. And even lower than that are bisexual men of color. And even lower than that is bisexual black men.
Speaker: And I think that House of Cage is so important because it is public queer representation of Black men.
Speaker: Black men dancing, Black men experiencing pleasure, Black men expressing elements of femininity, Black men in theaters or theatrics. And there was this whole conversation on TikTok about Why does all these films book black men from like outside of the United States to play in our films instead of booking black men at home?
Speaker: And it's because a lot of us have that creative energy groomed, if not beat out of us as such a young age that I want to go into theaters is pushed into.
Speaker: No, we want to see you go into more masculine areas. And like, while this is an issue that happens with masculinity everywhere, I want to, for this particular episode, talk about Black masculinity.
Speaker: And like, for me, I never saw myself as someone who could potentially be a performer. I don't have skills to be a dancer. But after watching what you created, watching the people in your house, I'm like, I can be more. I can present and do things that I didn't know I was allowed to do.
Speaker: And for that, I would like to say thank you. Coming up on an hour, this has been an amazing conversation. You probably have to have a second one talking about nightlife more centered.
Speaker: But I think this was the more important conversation. It's I will say We can talk about nightlife at any point. We can talk about anything any point. I i am always open and and welcome to having conversation. I will have you on my podcast as well. will have some point. um i will thank you right back, you know, for, for pouring into me as well, you know, to pour in something that I'm very, uh, that's very important to me is to pour back, um, into the people that pour into me.
Speaker: Um, you are a big part of also a necessary change in this city. Um, with what, um,
Speaker: you have played a part in creating with with sluts and, you know, ecstasy in the in the surrounding, you know, ah neighboring sister, you know, events and parties and everything that take place. It has a reach um to those, whether they have attended yet or not, whether the ones who have attended um All of the change is necessary. um And like I said, you know if you don't see something that you want or need, create it.
Speaker: And you know you play a part in that change and that is necessary. like Again, the landscape of of nightlife, which was supposed to be the topic, but like it it has changed and you do play a part in that as well. So like thank you for continuing the change that is necessary to be seen because There is someone out there the same way that you said that you needed what you saw in in Me and the House of Cage.
Speaker: Someone sees that with what you and Nat have created as well and so and are saying and have said, you know, I need to go and be a part of that. So thank you for giving me my flowers and also contributing and continuing to be a part of of the change and and continue to do so. You know, you you can be it's so cliche, like you can be anything you want, and you know, like and whatever you're doing now is only you're 27. I'm age myself real quick. But like, man, that's just the beginning. You know, like whatever I was doing at 27 only plays a small part in whatever I'm doing today at 38. so like continue to let the dominoes fall you know like let the cookie crumble where it's supposed to and be intentional about what you're doing um because all that change is necessary thank you so much and also i wish there was the glad you brought up the nightlife thing i wish i can do a podcast episode and actually follow the outline i spent an hour creating uh but we that means we just need to have a second conversation we locked in we'll do it you gotta sign the contract though
Speaker: yeah Thank you so much for anyone who's listened to this podcast. We're ending it right about the hour mark. This is the Sluts Party Podcast. I'm one of the co-hosts, John McRae. And I'm Matt Cage.
Speaker: Thank you for listening. and Have a nice one.
