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EXIT Podcast Episode 25: The Hot Seat (feat. Scott Fischbuch)
322 Plays3 years ago
Scott's last turn on the podcast generated so much interest in the group and on Twitter that he decided to join EXIT and pull the trigger on a personal consulting business. He now has a growing portfolio of paying clients, and recently volunteered for a "hot seat" call, in which the full EXIT brain trust helped him to overcome some obstacles to the growth of his business.
We discuss the impact of his consulting on his clients' personal and professional success, what he took away from the hot seat, and some projects that we are now working on together.
To schedule a free consult with Scott, get on his calendar here.
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Transcript
Welcome Back and Introduction
00:00:17
Speaker
Hey everybody, welcome to the Exit Podcast.
00:00:19
Speaker
This is Dr. Bennett, joined here once again by Scott Fishbook.
00:00:22
Speaker
Scott and I recorded a podcast on Jungian typology several months ago that got such a strong response from listeners that Scott decided to sign up for Exit and start a consulting business.
00:00:31
Speaker
So I wanted to have him back on the show for a quick check-in.
00:00:34
Speaker
Welcome to the show, Scott.
00:00:35
Speaker
Hey, thanks for having me.
00:00:37
Speaker
So I don't want to retread all the ground we covered last time, but we should introduce what you do for folks who haven't listened yet.
00:00:43
Speaker
Some of these concepts are going to be familiar to anyone who's heard of the four-letter Myers-Briggs inventory that they had to do maybe in school or in a corporate setting, or you go on a website and you get your sort of horoscope.
00:00:56
Speaker
Give us a taste of the domain that you consult in.
Consultation Process and Cognitive Functions
00:00:59
Speaker
Sure.
00:00:59
Speaker
So I work with a body of tools, people that have done this for most of their life, primarily psychoanalysts, some doctors and a few therapists, and they've written material.
00:01:11
Speaker
And then what I'll do is I will sit with someone and we will talk and we will we'll just have a conversation.
00:01:20
Speaker
And then in the background, my wheels are spinning and I'm figuring out essentially which spot fits best.
00:01:30
Speaker
And then there's a go between, right?
00:01:31
Speaker
Because I haven't lived the life of my client, so I need to listen to them completely and sort of integrate it.
00:01:38
Speaker
And so I go through the typing process.
00:01:41
Speaker
We arrive at a specific type, which happens to correlate to
00:01:45
Speaker
one of the 16 types that people are familiar with with myers-briggs now beyond that and this is where the cool stuff happens now now that we've zeroed in we can make some inferences that are highly tailored and extremely accurate and this is where people will think it's magic and i and i can promise it's not magic it's it's uh
00:02:09
Speaker
years of attention and work.
00:02:11
Speaker
And it gets exciting, right?
00:02:13
Speaker
Because people will feel as if, and this isn't always, you know, but most of the time, I'll hit on some things that they know are weaknesses that they are also interested in developing and strengthening.
Understanding Cognitive Styles
00:02:30
Speaker
And so once we dial in the personality type, I walk them through what are called cognitive functions, right?
00:02:38
Speaker
And we get into something called a functional stack.
00:02:42
Speaker
What that means is these are the lenses by which you view reality, right?
00:02:46
Speaker
In the previous podcast, we went over what these different lenses are.
00:02:50
Speaker
Yeah, tell us a bit about it, though.
00:02:52
Speaker
So, for instance, you have introverted thinking, which is, does this make sense to me?
00:02:59
Speaker
You aren't necessarily as concerned with the thoughts and ideas of others, right?
00:03:05
Speaker
So you yourself have a strong identity of a corpus of logical understanding.
00:03:13
Speaker
So essentially, if you're a
00:03:14
Speaker
you're in a room and someone comes to you and they tell you a thing, a TI user will say true or false, right?
00:03:25
Speaker
And it will be their subjective personal conclusion.
00:03:28
Speaker
And then compare that to extroverted thinking, that's tribe-based logic, right?
00:03:35
Speaker
So
00:03:36
Speaker
If you come to a boardroom, you listen to everybody make their case, and then you say to yourself, that idea right there, that's the one that I like, right?
00:03:47
Speaker
And so that's extroverted thinking.
00:03:48
Speaker
And then we move all the way down through the introverted and extroverted feeling, introverted and extroverted sensing, and introverted and extroverted intuiting.
00:03:58
Speaker
And they all have their different ways of coming off to the world, and they have their different flavors.
00:04:04
Speaker
So your purpose in this first meeting is to watch the way someone talks about their problem, watch the way they tell a story and say, are you an abstract thinker?
00:04:16
Speaker
Are you a concrete thinker?
00:04:18
Speaker
Are you sourcing moral judgments from the tribe?
00:04:22
Speaker
Or are you sourcing factual judgments from the tribe?
00:04:26
Speaker
Or what's internal?
00:04:26
Speaker
What's personal?
00:04:27
Speaker
And so it's not so much that you are...
00:04:30
Speaker
trying to fit them into like an arbitrary category, like what Disney princess are you type of quiz thing.
00:04:36
Speaker
It's more like you have this, these four sets of binary indicators and based on where they fit in each of those four categories, you establish kind of a cognitive profile that allows you to tell like, these are the things this person's going to be really good at.
00:04:52
Speaker
These are the things they're going to be really bad at.
00:04:55
Speaker
And not just that, but like, these are the things that,
00:04:58
Speaker
that they're bad at, that they know they're bad at.
00:05:01
Speaker
And these are the things that are like a total mystery to them.
00:05:05
Speaker
And so, and that can be where you find magic, right?
00:05:07
Speaker
Like they didn't even know what they didn't know.
00:05:11
Speaker
So how does your approach, like a lot of people are familiar with Myers-Briggs.
00:05:16
Speaker
A lot of people talk about it from like a hobbyist perspective.
00:05:19
Speaker
How does your approach on these existing materials differ from what someone could get from,
00:05:26
Speaker
16personalities.com or like the test they had to take at work or school?
00:05:30
Speaker
A hundred percent.
00:05:31
Speaker
It would, it would really only be my like personal experience.
00:05:36
Speaker
So, so it's not just words on a page for me.
00:05:40
Speaker
So I know what INTPs look like when they're, when they're in their comfort zone.
00:05:44
Speaker
I know what ENFJs look like when they're trying to boss people into like a reciprocal relationship.
00:05:53
Speaker
Like I know,
00:05:55
Speaker
all of these ways beyond looking at the book because I get to meet these people, right?
00:06:01
Speaker
I get to see what it is beyond like a trite explanation on a page.
00:06:06
Speaker
Not that it's trite.
00:06:07
Speaker
Some of the explanations are fantastic and the books are rich with detail and utility.
00:06:13
Speaker
But yeah,
00:06:14
Speaker
in the end you can read about what it's like for a gregarious um esfp to take you on an adventure and then there's the actual experience of going on that adventure and and so there's the map and there's the terrain and i suppose the difference is i've walked the terrain and and so like while someone could
00:06:36
Speaker
theoretically read those books and get to some of the same insights that you have, they're not going to be able to just produce them instantaneously and intuitively the way that you can because of this body of experience.
00:06:50
Speaker
And so it's sort of they're leveraging the time that you've put in ahead of time.
Limitations and Practical Applications
00:06:58
Speaker
And also, I got to think like, because these are blind spots,
00:07:04
Speaker
You may read about an ENFP.
00:07:07
Speaker
So I'm an ENFP.
00:07:08
Speaker
An ENFP has a hard time with introverted thinking.
00:07:14
Speaker
They mostly outsource logic to the tribe.
00:07:18
Speaker
And like, well, why is that a problem?
00:07:19
Speaker
Well, it means that you sometimes just sort of inhale stupid ideas and don't really think about them very carefully.
00:07:26
Speaker
And to just read about like, oh, I shouldn't do that is one thing.
00:07:30
Speaker
But to have someone actually walk through your situation and be like, look,
00:07:35
Speaker
you know, here is where you are doing that.
00:07:37
Speaker
And here is how it got you in trouble.
00:07:39
Speaker
I mean, I had that moment just recording of our last episode of the podcast with you.
00:07:44
Speaker
I had this, I didn't have like the answer already figured out.
00:07:47
Speaker
I asked you like, well, how does somebody mess that up?
00:07:49
Speaker
How can that go wrong?
00:07:50
Speaker
And you were like, well, if you absorb a bunch of silly ideas on Twitter and you just play with them kind of naively and foolishly and talk about them at length, maybe you get fired from your job.
00:08:01
Speaker
And I was like, oh, oh yeah, that is a problem.
00:08:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:08
Speaker
So, and there's also like, it's more than just the idea.
00:08:13
Speaker
I think in a lot of cases, you need a Sherpa to kind of walk you through the pain of it.
00:08:19
Speaker
So like, you and I were talking the other day about how a lot of people, when they go to self-help or they go to coaching, they
00:08:28
Speaker
or consulting, what they want from that experience is like, give me the magic idea that will enter my mind and sort of reformat my hard drive and take away all my problems.
00:08:41
Speaker
And that is not
00:08:43
Speaker
what you're trying to do here, it's much more about like walking somebody through their blind spots.
00:08:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:50
Speaker
And it's absolutely right.
00:08:52
Speaker
So, so I think what happens a lot of times, um, and, and I experienced it personally.
00:08:58
Speaker
So, so I include myself in this category.
00:09:00
Speaker
is we go to someone knowing that there's this pain point that we struggle with that's so difficult.
00:09:07
Speaker
And we're just hoping that if like we hear the right words and the right things are said, suddenly we'll shift things around in our mind.
00:09:17
Speaker
And that challenge or issue will cease to be an issue.
00:09:21
Speaker
We'll suddenly have all the skills necessary to confront someone, even though we're an FE user and we're obsessed with harmony and making sure that everyone feels good, that the vibe is great.
00:09:33
Speaker
Right.
00:09:34
Speaker
And so suddenly I'm going to listen to these words and I'm going to be able to handle conflict immediately.
00:09:41
Speaker
And or or if it's like ESTP talking about navigating his personal feelings, challenging place.
00:09:50
Speaker
And suddenly I'll talk to I'll talk to Scott and the my difficulty in navigating my emotional personal emotional experience.
00:09:58
Speaker
So we're talking about introverted feeling.
00:10:01
Speaker
Suddenly that will be fixed and I won't have to worry about it ever again.
00:10:06
Speaker
And that's just not how any of it works, unfortunately.
00:10:11
Speaker
And I say unfortunately, because I understand that's sort of the dream or hope that a lot of people will have walking into a session.
00:10:22
Speaker
And the answer is,
00:10:24
Speaker
practical application of simple, simple routines.
00:10:31
Speaker
Do do the work like I'm great at work, but but I struggle with my relationships.
00:10:36
Speaker
My relationships are beautiful, but I struggle with with following a schedule.
00:10:40
Speaker
And so there's no way around the fact that
00:10:44
Speaker
the hard part of your life is hard to navigate.
00:10:48
Speaker
If that, if that makes sense.
00:10:49
Speaker
But maybe, and, and, you know, we've talked a little bit about Jung actually, and, and, and the, the, the shadow, the, the dark side of your personality, which is not, it's not dark in the sense that like it's your evil twin or something, or
Jungian Shadow Work
00:11:05
Speaker
that you need to become a villain.
00:11:06
Speaker
You know, Jordan Peterson talks a lot about the, the, the beast that you need to awaken.
00:11:12
Speaker
And I think, and I think,
00:11:14
Speaker
For some people, like that FE user who needs to learn how to pick a fight, it can be like that.
00:11:20
Speaker
But the shadow is actually just the part of you that is...
00:11:25
Speaker
dark and dormant.
00:11:28
Speaker
It's, it's mysterious to you.
00:11:29
Speaker
It's hard to access.
00:11:31
Speaker
It can be frightening to access, but you know, if, if, uh, if you're that ESTP accessing your shadow is not like you go be a jerk.
00:11:41
Speaker
Cause those guys are usually pretty comfortable being jerks when they have to be for, for right.
00:11:46
Speaker
For them accessing the shadow may be about like, I need to tell my kid explicitly that I love them.
00:11:53
Speaker
And like that's that's shadow work.
00:11:56
Speaker
And so having someone to tell you in explicit terms
00:12:05
Speaker
Like, you know, that's going to be hard, but like, here's exactly why it's going to be hard.
00:12:10
Speaker
And here are some, here are some tools you can leverage to access your strengths in that situation and integrate this challenging experience into your personality.
00:12:22
Speaker
And you're still going to be the guy for whom that is hard, but these are the tools to get there.
00:12:27
Speaker
And it's, and it's in my experience, as I've learned from
00:12:31
Speaker
more about this system, and I've looked back at the times in my life where I had the most growth, it was where I was forced through hardship to pull myself into that dark space and access those cognitive functions that are mysterious and challenging for me.
00:12:49
Speaker
And you become a more complete person.
00:12:52
Speaker
And so someone may benefit a lot from like the, I don't want to say therapist angle to this, like the emotional, like, you know, how do I manage my relationship with my girlfriend or whatever, but someone's going to probably pay you on the basis of, I want to improve my sales.
00:13:09
Speaker
I want to improve my relationship with a partner.
00:13:11
Speaker
I want to improve my relationship with a client.
00:13:13
Speaker
I'm having this professional difficulty because they want to see ROI on the money that they're giving you.
00:13:19
Speaker
Right.
00:13:20
Speaker
So tell me a little bit about,
00:13:22
Speaker
how these concepts cash out for your clients in terms of professional insight.
00:13:28
Speaker
And then also, you know, maybe this is icing for a lot of them, but like the personal piece as well.
00:13:35
Speaker
Yeah, and in all honesty, there's businesses like personal adjacent, like as much as we think we're these cubicle people and we separate the office from our family and so forth, we develop personal relationships when we're at work.
00:13:50
Speaker
It affects us personally.
00:13:52
Speaker
So, so, so a specific example is I worked in, I've worked in an office setting for, you know, a good point, a good amount of my professional career.
00:14:03
Speaker
In one of them, I worked with a friend and that friend was having a lot of trouble communicating and motivating staff.
00:14:11
Speaker
to follow through on some of his expectations.
00:14:16
Speaker
And really, so he had a strong personality.
00:14:19
Speaker
He wanted people to follow the rules so that the business could make more money, right?
00:14:24
Speaker
Great, great, great motives if you want to keep people employed and pay the bills.
00:14:29
Speaker
So I came at it from a type perspective and I went through the process of typing each of the people in his office, figuring out a good way to communicate with each one.
00:14:43
Speaker
And in the end, in order to integrate perfectly with everyone in your office, you'd probably have to make an enormous amount of change.
00:14:49
Speaker
But there are little shifts that you can make within yourself that aren't massively difficult to do.
00:14:58
Speaker
Like for one, one was an ESTJ and that was one of his employees.
00:15:05
Speaker
And ESTJs are direct initiated control types.
00:15:08
Speaker
And so they're really going to thrive in a reliable, consistent environment.
00:15:15
Speaker
And he was a movement type.
00:15:16
Speaker
And so he likes, he's safe in chaos and living on the edge of how busy things are and things where
00:15:24
Speaker
busy and intense all the time.
00:15:25
Speaker
And so for this ESTJ, that's an enormous amount of stress.
00:15:29
Speaker
And so what I suggested to him was to create a designated schedule and to adhere to it and to have specific rules and expectations that everyone was to follow.
00:15:41
Speaker
And once this was applied, the ESTJ was much happier, much more acquiescent and essentially the wheels of the business
00:15:50
Speaker
were able to move much more fluidly with that one employee.
00:15:54
Speaker
And then we just went down the list, right?
00:15:56
Speaker
We had a ESTP, we had a unit, and we went with each person and we figured out the things.
00:16:04
Speaker
And we all we had to do is modify his behavior slightly.
00:16:07
Speaker
And in the end, the office became highly functional during COVID, where everyone else was taking a dive.
00:16:15
Speaker
His was at 90% what it was outside of COVID.
Engaging with Personality Types
00:16:20
Speaker
And so we were working in the healthcare industry.
00:16:22
Speaker
So those metrics are impressive.
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:25
Speaker
Like, and you can identify as part of what you do.
00:16:29
Speaker
There are definitely, I think, I think all types can interact profitably.
00:16:34
Speaker
I think all types have things to learn from one another, but there are definitely types that get along more naturally.
00:16:41
Speaker
And it's in part because they produce what the other consumes.
00:16:47
Speaker
So like, yeah,
00:16:48
Speaker
A certain type of person is an idea generator and a certain type of person is an idea consumer.
00:16:54
Speaker
You are a TI.
00:16:56
Speaker
So you've got that introverted thinking and you are producing ideas.
00:16:59
Speaker
And I am an extroverted thinker.
00:17:02
Speaker
So like I am constantly reaching out.
00:17:04
Speaker
That's why I love doing the podcast.
00:17:06
Speaker
Why I love having these one-on-one calls with the guys.
00:17:08
Speaker
Cause I'm constantly like fascinated by, Oh really?
00:17:11
Speaker
That's what you think?
00:17:11
Speaker
That's what your expertise is.
00:17:13
Speaker
And my instinct to solve a problem is,
00:17:17
Speaker
is almost never like, let me do the math.
00:17:20
Speaker
My instinct is almost always like, let me find the guy.
00:17:23
Speaker
Let me just find the guy and the guy will tell me.
00:17:26
Speaker
And like, you're the guy for this piece, for this set of expertise.
00:17:31
Speaker
So I referred you to someone I knew about who was trying to start a business with their spouse.
00:17:38
Speaker
And I was, I could understand in like a practical sense why things weren't getting off the ground.
00:17:44
Speaker
But I was continually telling them, here's how I think you fix that.
00:17:50
Speaker
And just nothing ever progressed.
00:17:53
Speaker
They're actually trying to launch a business that has a lot of things in common with what I'm trying to do.
00:17:59
Speaker
So I was able to say, you have X hundred thousand followers on Facebook.
00:18:04
Speaker
I know that if you introduce this monetization strategy, you will get X percent of that
00:18:12
Speaker
100,000 followers to pay you.
00:18:14
Speaker
And like, it was very frustrating to me because I was like, I know this will work.
00:18:17
Speaker
Why aren't you taking my, why aren't you taking my very good advice?
00:18:20
Speaker
And you helped me talk through like, these are, these are two cognitive types who, A, struggle to start things, period.
00:18:30
Speaker
Like it's just, it's just not in their, in their nature to be the startup person.
00:18:35
Speaker
They need someone else to kickstart it and, and, and take charge of that step.
00:18:39
Speaker
You were able to see that very clearly and see like, here's how you have to communicate it to them.
00:18:46
Speaker
I think one of them, the answer ended up being like, you can't just tell this person to do X. You need to tell them to find the person who can do X. Like they basically needed a different partner involved and that, you know,
00:19:00
Speaker
That totally changed the conversation and cracked things wide open.
00:19:04
Speaker
So that's another cash out.
00:19:07
Speaker
But okay, so do your clients tend to span the whole range of temperaments?
00:19:12
Speaker
Like, is there a type of person that is more likely to
00:19:17
Speaker
recognize this as a source of value?
00:19:19
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:19:20
Speaker
So this, this, these, all these concepts are very abstract.
00:19:26
Speaker
So it's less, it's, it's rarer that the guardian and artisan types come to me.
00:19:34
Speaker
simply because the information that I'm giving them comes in a form that is challenging for them to digest.
00:19:41
Speaker
That doesn't mean that it's not useful.
00:19:43
Speaker
It just means this isn't their space.
00:19:45
Speaker
I've had family friends who are incredibly interested.
00:19:50
Speaker
And then if I go into the abstract realm, talking to highly concrete people,
00:19:55
Speaker
You can tell like immediately their eyes glaze over.
00:19:59
Speaker
And, and so, and, and this was early on in the process before I really understood how people engage with, with ideas on all the different levels of types.
00:20:10
Speaker
So before, when, when I started trying to use things practically, this is when I started observing all of these patterns.
00:20:19
Speaker
And what I've discovered is that, yeah, with the guardians and artisans, you just have to keep it very concrete.
00:20:27
Speaker
You don't, which for me as an abstract type, it can feel slow, but that's a lot of growth for me.
00:20:36
Speaker
I get to explore the concrete space
00:20:40
Speaker
which gives my mind stability.
00:20:43
Speaker
It gives me reliability and consistency.
00:20:47
Speaker
So I don't really look at working with challenging clients as a negative, simply as something that, like if I can learn to accommodate all these different styles of communication, it just makes me better at serving the needs of the people that I care about.
00:21:07
Speaker
So it totally, I,
00:21:09
Speaker
I totally agree.
00:21:10
Speaker
And it transforms your own way of working.
00:21:14
Speaker
Because if I am just in this brass tacks conversation, you have to accommodate not only the person you're talking to, you also have to accommodate yourself.
00:21:25
Speaker
Right.
00:21:25
Speaker
Like you cannot live in a world that you're not comfortable with all the time.
00:21:31
Speaker
And so if I'm just having this brass tacks conversation with this very concrete person,
00:21:36
Speaker
I mean, that was what I did in my cubicle job.
00:21:38
Speaker
It was constant.
00:21:38
Speaker
It was nothing but these very concrete, very dry, very practical conversations.
00:21:43
Speaker
And I was bored to tears and I was in terrible psychological pain all the time.
00:21:50
Speaker
And so, but having these conversations and in the back of my mind, I'm solving this abstract puzzle.
00:21:59
Speaker
The puzzle that I'm solving is like, how is this going from like a typological perspective?
00:22:05
Speaker
what cognitive clues can I glean from this interaction, what's happening?
00:22:10
Speaker
It sort of transmogrifies the mundane conversation into this abstract place where I get to play.
00:22:18
Speaker
And so it works both ways.
00:22:20
Speaker
It not only helps you to accommodate
00:22:22
Speaker
you know, the client, but it also helps you to make the experience more interesting for yourself.
00:22:28
Speaker
And that's got to be a huge appeal to, to abstract types.
00:22:31
Speaker
And I, you know, you mentioned guardians and artisans, just a quick overview.
Personality Type Characteristics
00:22:35
Speaker
The, when we talked about this in the last podcast, but just in case people haven't heard.
00:22:39
Speaker
So the, the guardian type is someone who is more concrete than
00:22:46
Speaker
and more socially conformist.
00:22:50
Speaker
They like rules, they like structure, they like to make sure everybody else is following the rules.
00:22:56
Speaker
And then an artisan type is...
00:22:59
Speaker
concrete, but they're more nonconformist.
00:23:02
Speaker
These are the artists and the, especially visual artists and the singers and performers and skateboarders.
00:23:11
Speaker
These are the types that tend to have challenges with substance abuse because they're very like in the now type people.
00:23:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:19
Speaker
And it makes, it makes the now more exciting.
00:23:21
Speaker
Like when, when they're eating good food and having a good time and yeah.
00:23:25
Speaker
Although I, I find that,
00:23:28
Speaker
It's specific types that navigate that space with challenges.
00:23:32
Speaker
But for the reasons that you suggested that they're very in the moment, they're not thinking tremendously about future consequences, right?
00:23:40
Speaker
Which, yeah.
00:23:41
Speaker
And so that affects their lifestyle.
00:23:43
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:45
Speaker
And then you've got, on the other hand, you've got the two abstract types, which are rationalists who are abstract, but they're concerned with questions of fact.
00:23:53
Speaker
And then you've got the idealists who are abstract, but they live in more of the realm of the moral, what's right and wrong, what do I think is good and bad, versus the factual questions.
00:24:05
Speaker
So we've talked about how the guardians and the artisans maybe don't necessarily intuitively, well, maybe it's not they don't see the value, but they have a harder time
00:24:15
Speaker
getting through the information that explains why this is credible.
00:24:20
Speaker
Like, like if you can just tell them, hey, go, go, you know, bathe in the Jordan and you'll be healed.
00:24:27
Speaker
And then they go do it and they're healed.
00:24:29
Speaker
Then they don't have to care about like your process, which would be boring to them to hear about.
00:24:34
Speaker
But a lot of these types, because they value institutions and consensus and like the
00:24:43
Speaker
well, Myers-Briggs is in this sort of twilight realm of like, it's not exactly scientific.
00:24:51
Speaker
Like you can't look into a flask and check the bubbles to see if your MBTI is right.
00:24:55
Speaker
Like it's not a hard, hard science.
00:24:57
Speaker
But some of the brightest minds in psychoanalysis have worked in this field.
00:25:03
Speaker
And so like, it's not woo either.
00:25:05
Speaker
But so like a guardian type specifically, you would have to kind of do an end run around like questions of,
00:25:12
Speaker
How does this all work?
00:25:14
Speaker
And just go straight to like, here's the answer.
00:25:17
Speaker
Here's what you need to do.
00:25:19
Speaker
And watch what happens.
00:25:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:22
Speaker
And then obviously, even within the guardian type, you have specific personalities and their approach would be different, right?
00:25:29
Speaker
So for instance, and we talked about this a little bit on the previous podcast, an ESFJ and an ESTJ are both guardian types, but the way that they're going to navigate information is very different, right?
00:25:41
Speaker
Because one of them will be more focused on, does the group of people around me like these concepts and ideas?
00:25:51
Speaker
Is this exciting to them?
00:25:52
Speaker
Do they enjoy it?
00:25:53
Speaker
Do they love it?
00:25:54
Speaker
And if enough social proof is there, then the idea is good.
00:25:59
Speaker
And then beyond that, you have the ESTJ and that's like, that's using extroverted thinking.
00:26:06
Speaker
So it's, what is the group around me think about these concepts?
00:26:10
Speaker
Do people I respect think that this is stupid?
00:26:13
Speaker
Yes, that's precisely.
00:26:15
Speaker
And so, but regardless, both the ESFJ and the ESTJ will be looking to the tribe to create the value judgments by which they judge information.
00:26:27
Speaker
So is this safe?
00:26:29
Speaker
Let me look outside to what has been done in the past.
Tailoring Approaches to Cognitive Types
00:26:33
Speaker
Okay, so that's the guardian and artisan types.
00:26:36
Speaker
They're going to have a hard time because it's more abstract than they like.
00:26:40
Speaker
So once you've got them in the tent, you're going to focus on the direct payoff of what they need to do.
00:26:47
Speaker
But how would you differ between a guardian and an artisan?
00:26:50
Speaker
They're both concrete types.
00:26:52
Speaker
How would your approach differ between them?
00:26:55
Speaker
It does depend by type.
00:26:56
Speaker
Like for instance, an ISFJ, you give them a recipe because they want to process it on their own, their TI child.
00:27:03
Speaker
So their third function is introverted thinking.
00:27:06
Speaker
So they care about what they think about it.
00:27:08
Speaker
And so you want to give them the space to come to their own conclusions, even if it takes a little longer.
00:27:16
Speaker
That's just the door to their personal understanding.
00:27:20
Speaker
And so knocking up against that's not going to help
00:27:23
Speaker
anyone.
00:27:24
Speaker
And so, yeah.
00:27:24
Speaker
So in my experience with ISFJs, for instance, you, you let them tell you what they think and you give them suggestions.
00:27:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:32
Speaker
And then you, you, you ask them questions.
00:27:35
Speaker
Whereas an ESTJ, you can just tell them what I think and they absorb it because they're a TE user.
00:27:42
Speaker
And so, but, but regardless, one common trend among guardians is you need to give them the recipe.
00:27:50
Speaker
If you don't give them the recipe, they will not be happy.
00:27:53
Speaker
You give them the bullet point list of things that they need to know.
00:27:58
Speaker
Right.
00:27:58
Speaker
And then they're going to learn it.
00:28:00
Speaker
They don't want to spend time wondering about how it could be, what it is.
00:28:05
Speaker
They want to know how to do it.
00:28:07
Speaker
And so you give that to them and that will make them very happy.
00:28:11
Speaker
The artist in type, you just tell them some stuff that they can do and that's it.
00:28:17
Speaker
Like you're not giving them a recipe.
00:28:19
Speaker
you're saying, here's an action item.
00:28:21
Speaker
Here's a thing you can do.
00:28:22
Speaker
And this is what I suggest that you do.
00:28:24
Speaker
And you don't give them a lot of them, right?
00:28:25
Speaker
Because you don't want to overwhelm them with options, which is what happened in the conversation that you were talking about.
00:28:31
Speaker
Too many options is too much.
00:28:34
Speaker
And so you figure out what is the most useful action item that I can provide you with.
00:28:42
Speaker
And then you create a very concrete execution focused suggestion.
00:28:47
Speaker
And then they can take that and use it.
00:28:49
Speaker
That's Guardian Artisan.
00:28:50
Speaker
What about rationalist and idealist?
00:28:52
Speaker
Okay.
00:28:53
Speaker
And again, this will differ by type or at very least the approach I take will differ, right?
00:28:59
Speaker
Because I have my type.
00:29:00
Speaker
I'm an INTP.
00:29:01
Speaker
So there's a way that I come off to the world and I have to navigate that depending on the person that I'm working with.
00:29:07
Speaker
And some people are...
00:29:09
Speaker
just naturally more dialed in to meet me where I'm at.
00:29:14
Speaker
And sometimes I have to accommodate.
00:29:16
Speaker
And so, for instance, if I'm working with the ENTP, well, essentially an extroverted intuitive user.
00:29:23
Speaker
So I'll sit down with them,
00:29:25
Speaker
They want to figure it out for themselves.
00:29:27
Speaker
And so I just have to provide them with resources and then they can use them or not.
00:29:34
Speaker
I will suggest, I will tell them things that they need to change based on my understanding of their shadow functions.
00:29:40
Speaker
So for instance, if you're an ENTP, challenges will be distilling and identifying your personal ambition and trajectory forward.
00:29:48
Speaker
So at the ENTP, I'm going to help them talk about specific challenges
00:29:52
Speaker
crystallized future oriented items, right?
00:29:56
Speaker
Because we're abstract, we want to think ahead.
00:29:58
Speaker
And so I'll talk about like, okay, figure out what your aim is.
00:30:03
Speaker
Like, like, where does this lead you?
00:30:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:05
Speaker
And so again, much more abstract than for the guardians and artisans.
00:30:10
Speaker
However, simply because it's necessary, I will give action items that are useful.
00:30:17
Speaker
Although again, as we mentioned, it's not as imperative for the abstract types to be given specific things that they can look at, right?
00:30:26
Speaker
Because they do the thinking for themselves.
00:30:29
Speaker
And then let's see, so that's ENTP.
00:30:31
Speaker
So help them organize their personal vision, help them establish routines, which they don't want to make.
00:30:39
Speaker
because it limits their possibilities.
00:30:42
Speaker
And then those are the main things.
00:30:45
Speaker
With the INTPs, organizing social activities is important, like building that into your schedule just to create healthy opportunities for
00:30:56
Speaker
engaging.
00:30:57
Speaker
Well, and this is maybe a big difference within that rationalist sphere.
00:31:01
Speaker
You've got the ENTP and the INTP and an ENTP like me is going to be all about the starting.
00:31:07
Speaker
He's going to be all about like, let's go.
00:31:10
Speaker
He's going to be very high energy in the first stages of a project.
00:31:13
Speaker
and ready to launch.
00:31:15
Speaker
And the INTP is going to be maybe more like, I'm not sure how I feel about it.
00:31:21
Speaker
I'm not sure about, have I thought of all the angles, a little more analysis paralysis.
00:31:25
Speaker
And so your approach to those two types, even though they're rational, it's going to be pretty dramatically different.
00:31:30
Speaker
Yeah, it is.
00:31:31
Speaker
It is.
00:31:31
Speaker
And the reason why INTPs will be in analysis paralysis is TI hero.
00:31:36
Speaker
So the easiest thing for them in the world to do is to analyze.
00:31:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:40
Speaker
It's effortless.
00:31:42
Speaker
Um,
00:31:43
Speaker
Whereas ENTP, the easiest thing in the world is to generate options, right?
00:31:48
Speaker
Like, I could do this, I could do this, right?
00:31:50
Speaker
And so they're similar, they're similar, but yeah, you can definitely sense that there's a big distinction in flavor.
00:31:59
Speaker
And also SI child, which is the third function in their functional stack, which we talked about at the very beginning of the podcast,
00:32:06
Speaker
Yeah, their third function is introverted sensing, which is, am I comfortable?
00:32:11
Speaker
Do I feel comfortable with this?
00:32:12
Speaker
Right?
00:32:13
Speaker
So the definition of someone that wants to be in their comfort zone.
00:32:17
Speaker
Yeah, and it's this very, because it's their child function instead of their hero or their parent function, it's this very naive desire for comfort.
00:32:26
Speaker
It's like immediate comfort now, like a child, versus someone who is an SI hero or an SI parent is going to be more like, let me take care of my comfort in the long run, so I'm going to establish routines that I enjoy.
00:32:41
Speaker
I'm going to set up my space the way I like it.
00:32:44
Speaker
I'm going to reflect myself
00:32:46
Speaker
across time.
00:32:48
Speaker
And I'm going to say what would make me the most comfortable and I'm going to work at it proactively.
00:32:52
Speaker
And SI child is more like Doritos sounds better than salad right now.
00:32:57
Speaker
I was just going to say that.
00:32:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:00
Speaker
Give me some donuts.
00:33:01
Speaker
Where are the donuts?
00:33:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:03
Speaker
Like, uh, absolutely.
00:33:06
Speaker
Um, junk food enthusiast.
00:33:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:09
Speaker
Although personally I like working out.
00:33:12
Speaker
So I, and that way I deviate,
00:33:14
Speaker
Although I love junk food, to be clear.
00:33:16
Speaker
I also love all the things we discussed.
00:33:18
Speaker
For some reason, working out, stuck.
00:33:21
Speaker
Well, and that's maybe one reason why this is not a hard science.
Personality Types in Physical Activities
00:33:26
Speaker
Because looking at like, looking again, looking at someone's behavior does not necessarily tell you where they land.
00:33:34
Speaker
You know, I mean, I'm an ENFP and I'm not supposed to like working out, but I like working out.
00:33:40
Speaker
And, you know, I definitely don't like it the way that an ESTP or someone who's like, that's their jam.
00:33:45
Speaker
But again, it's like you can't look at behavior because everybody does everything.
00:33:49
Speaker
But when you get down to like cognitive styles, like how do I like to receive information?
00:33:55
Speaker
How do I process the information once I've got it?
00:33:58
Speaker
It's like dead to rights, ENFP.
00:34:00
Speaker
It's very, very clear.
00:34:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:01
Speaker
And then even from the workout, like I'll go to the gym and I'll see the types.
00:34:05
Speaker
I'm like, there's the ESTP, perfect form on squats, like just pushing it like crazy.
00:34:10
Speaker
There's the ENFP sitting on the leg press machine.
00:34:13
Speaker
Like, cause, and every now and then, and I find that they like to run a lot.
00:34:17
Speaker
So, so the cardio element, like just get in the zone is kind of what I've noticed.
00:34:22
Speaker
And, and I'm the same.
00:34:24
Speaker
So essentially you can actually sort of distinguish the types at the gym as well.
00:34:29
Speaker
Right.
00:34:29
Speaker
So yeah.
00:34:30
Speaker
And that's fun for me.
00:34:31
Speaker
And remember, for those of you, like, this is so ingrained in my psyche that I can't help but do it no matter where I am.
00:34:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:42
Speaker
I think, you know, I look at the way my kids, my two oldest boys were playing hockey in the basement.
00:34:47
Speaker
And one of them, who I think is an INFJ, but I'm not sure yet.
00:34:52
Speaker
And the other one is pretty much balls to the wall ESTP.
00:34:57
Speaker
The way that they handled the ball was so different.
00:35:00
Speaker
And my oldest boy, he was sort of hacking at the ball, whacking it, trying to like fling it.
00:35:07
Speaker
You know, was having a harder time like being effective.
00:35:10
Speaker
He was just more sort of having the experience.
00:35:13
Speaker
And then my younger son was like, he was almost trying to do like the eggshell exercise where he was trying to very gently guide and very carefully guide the ball right where he wanted it.
00:35:26
Speaker
And he enjoyed like the slap shot, like he would fling back and smack it.
00:35:31
Speaker
But he was very much in touch with like, what exactly is my body doing?
00:35:35
Speaker
What's the exact right way to do this?
00:35:38
Speaker
And so it was interesting to see how they, interesting to look at their differences through that lens.
00:35:44
Speaker
Yeah, and I think this is that's a great point of the cognitive axis of the ESTP, which is extroverted sensing hero introvert intuition, inferior.
00:35:55
Speaker
So they know what they want, right?
00:35:57
Speaker
They want that ball like but it's contained to the moment.
00:36:01
Speaker
Yeah, like,
00:36:03
Speaker
Like I want, like I know what I want and I want that ball to fly perfectly to that spot over there.
00:36:10
Speaker
Or I want this pushup to be tuned excellently so that it engages each part of the body that I want it to engage.
00:36:18
Speaker
Right.
00:36:20
Speaker
And just that corporeal mastery is really impressive.
00:36:24
Speaker
And yeah, you can see it from a very young age.
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah, so that's rationalist.
00:36:30
Speaker
Okay, so what about rationalist versus idealist?
00:36:34
Speaker
And maybe it'll help to bring this down to earth to talk about specific cases.
00:36:39
Speaker
So I know that you've had an interaction with an ENTP.
00:36:43
Speaker
What are the way, or several, I think, ENTPs within the group.
00:36:46
Speaker
How does your approach to them specifically take into account their cognitive style?
00:36:54
Speaker
I, it's challenging because I have the same functional stack.
00:36:57
Speaker
So if I work with an ENTP, we're living in the same space.
00:37:02
Speaker
And so neither of us has access to the shadow functions that the other has.
00:37:08
Speaker
Right.
00:37:09
Speaker
So I have to work,
00:37:11
Speaker
I have to personally put extra work into it.
00:37:16
Speaker
But the plus side is I know how they think.
00:37:19
Speaker
Yes.
00:37:20
Speaker
So that's always the trade-off.
00:37:23
Speaker
We can actually be more comfortable working with people who are similar to us in some ways or reciprocal to us.
00:37:31
Speaker
But people who are not reciprocal to us at all, we may be able to help more if we can...
00:37:36
Speaker
if we can learn how to play the game they're playing.
00:37:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:39
Speaker
So one specific experience I have, and this is with any users in general, so you or some of my clients, is knowing that extroverted intuitives want to figure out what the other person wants, right?
00:37:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:56
Speaker
So they want to leave the zone free for people to make the choices that they want.
00:38:03
Speaker
And then they want to support that.
00:38:05
Speaker
So one of the ENTPs I'm working with was planning a trip and wanted to make sure that... Well, actually, timeout.
00:38:25
Speaker
I don't know.
00:38:26
Speaker
Is it okay if I talk about these things?
00:38:28
Speaker
I didn't actually get any permission from... Obfuscate details.
00:38:34
Speaker
Okay.
00:38:36
Speaker
All right.
00:38:38
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:38:40
Speaker
So, wanted to make sure that his wife was having an authentic experience.
00:38:46
Speaker
And then...
00:38:47
Speaker
Her type was ESFJ, so also want to fall in line with what other people want.
00:38:53
Speaker
So both of them want to do what the other person wants.
00:38:56
Speaker
Which can be very frustrating.
00:38:59
Speaker
Yes, absolutely.
00:39:01
Speaker
But it's easier for the ENTP, who is extrovert intuitive hero, to get into the NI space, which is what do I want?
00:39:10
Speaker
Whereas with an ESFJ, it's extrovert intuitive child.
00:39:14
Speaker
Introverted intuition is much harder to get tapped into.
00:39:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:19
Speaker
And so... So just for context, before you go any further, my wife is ESFJ and I'm ENFP, which means that we're in a very similar boat in terms of like where we want to go for dinner.
00:39:30
Speaker
I want to give her a good experience.
00:39:32
Speaker
I want to show her a good time.
00:39:33
Speaker
She wants to do what I want to do.
00:39:37
Speaker
And so we kind of go back and forth.
00:39:41
Speaker
But it is the case...
00:39:43
Speaker
that it is easier for me to access what I want.
00:39:46
Speaker
And so like, in a lot of cases, I, I end up being like the tiebreaker, like, like, and not, not the tiebreaker because like we both have a, an opinion.
00:39:56
Speaker
It's, it's more because we both don't.
00:39:59
Speaker
And so I'll be like, whatever the blue dress, wear the blue dress, I guess, you know?
00:40:03
Speaker
And, and it's funny because it's,
00:40:06
Speaker
It's, you know, now that I'm thinking about it, it's always framed in terms of like, well, do you feel pretty?
00:40:11
Speaker
Like, is it comfortable?
00:40:13
Speaker
Are you comfortable?
00:40:14
Speaker
I'd like you to be.
00:40:15
Speaker
I'd like you to look good and feel like you look good.
00:40:17
Speaker
So whichever one does that for you, honey.
00:40:19
Speaker
And she's like, but I don't know what I want.
00:40:23
Speaker
I want you to tell me what's good.
00:40:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:27
Speaker
So, well, you just unlocked something for me.
00:40:31
Speaker
That's good.
00:40:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:33
Speaker
Yeah, and that's how it looks.
00:40:35
Speaker
And so all of the functions of the ESFJ and ENFP are sort of on display in that single conversation.
00:40:42
Speaker
Right.
00:40:43
Speaker
And we could unpack it and say, this is what extroverted feeling looks like.
00:40:47
Speaker
This is FI.
00:40:48
Speaker
Extroverted feeling, does everybody like my dress?
00:40:55
Speaker
Is it a good dress?
00:40:57
Speaker
Yeah, and not so much like... So...
00:41:02
Speaker
SE would be like, is my dress giving people a good experience?
00:41:07
Speaker
Like, is it attractive?
00:41:08
Speaker
Is it sexy?
00:41:09
Speaker
And FE would be more like, is my dress appropriate?
00:41:13
Speaker
Am I overdressed?
00:41:14
Speaker
Am I underdressed?
00:41:15
Speaker
Am I like, like, am I fitting into like the moral judgments?
00:41:19
Speaker
Yeah, am I meeting the social expectations of the environment that I'm in?
Business Relationships and Cognitive Differences
00:41:25
Speaker
Right.
00:41:25
Speaker
So yeah, it sort of requires the NE heroes, in this case, both you and the client that I was working with, to hop into their shadow function.
00:41:36
Speaker
And figure out what do I want, even if I don't feel that strongly, because it's down in the shadow functions.
00:41:45
Speaker
But it's accessible.
00:41:46
Speaker
And I'm going to pull it out and I'm going to hand it to this situation because it'll solve the problem that we're running into right now, which is where will we go to eat?
00:41:56
Speaker
Right.
00:41:56
Speaker
And then, yeah, you could...
00:42:00
Speaker
And it's important.
00:42:02
Speaker
Those are real issues.
00:42:03
Speaker
Those are challenges.
00:42:05
Speaker
Admittedly, that's sort of a daily kind of occurrence, but those things happen in business.
00:42:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:13
Speaker
What if they were business partners and they were trying to pick a logo or settle on some branding?
00:42:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:19
Speaker
Which one?
00:42:19
Speaker
Oh, what do you want?
00:42:20
Speaker
What do you want?
00:42:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:22
Speaker
And the war ensues.
00:42:24
Speaker
Yeah, you can get unironically really frustrated with your partner on that basis, even though it's the fact that the stakes are so small that makes it a fight.
00:42:37
Speaker
Because neither of you care.
00:42:38
Speaker
Just pick.
00:42:39
Speaker
Or at least... Yeah, just pick.
00:42:41
Speaker
Yeah, even if you don't know why you care, you probably do on some level, but neither of you are able to access that.
00:42:49
Speaker
And so you just, you just are at this impasse.
00:42:52
Speaker
So like, yeah, that's totally, I mean, it's, it's, it's just as relevant to business decisions as it is to, you know, a spouse.
00:42:59
Speaker
And you, you've had, you've had experiences where partners were not communicating well and, you
00:43:07
Speaker
And it's funny because the way you tell the story, it's almost like they had to figure out their partner's love language almost.
00:43:14
Speaker
Their business partner.
00:43:15
Speaker
And they're both guys and they're both friends.
00:43:18
Speaker
But they had to learn how does this person feel appreciated and validated?
00:43:24
Speaker
And what am I looking for from this interaction that I'm not getting?
00:43:29
Speaker
And so it can be really powerful.
00:43:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:31
Speaker
Sometimes people will find out that...
00:43:35
Speaker
that the business partner they have aligns with them perfectly.
00:43:40
Speaker
And they're like, I knew it all along.
00:43:42
Speaker
We're the golden pair.
00:43:43
Speaker
Of course, of course it works so great.
00:43:45
Speaker
And then there's challenges and issues with the golden pair.
00:43:48
Speaker
And those are people that are perfectly reciprocal.
00:43:51
Speaker
I'll spare you guys the lecture.
00:43:53
Speaker
Well, that's fine, but I think it is good to explore it in at least one example case.
00:43:59
Speaker
So my type is ENFP, which means I like to give people options.
00:44:06
Speaker
I like to do things that I think are right.
00:44:08
Speaker
I like to outsource my logic.
00:44:10
Speaker
So like I'm very much, I need to go find the expert.
00:44:13
Speaker
I need to go put this in front of a panel and see what the panel has to say about it, which is totally what I do in exit.
00:44:19
Speaker
But my golden pair, the person that I get along the best,
00:44:22
Speaker
with.
00:44:23
Speaker
And, you know, I told you originally that I don't think that I know any, but then I looked back and I was like, Oh, like pretty much all my best friends.
00:44:30
Speaker
I haven't, I haven't gone through it, but I'm pretty sure they were all INFJs or close, which what the INFJ does is produce what I put out and put out what I consume.
00:44:42
Speaker
So like, um, you know, I'm, I'm an extrovert intuition guy, meaning I want to know what you want and I want to help you get there.
00:44:49
Speaker
And their introvert intuition, which is, I know what I want.
00:44:52
Speaker
I want someone to give me some options.
00:44:55
Speaker
And they are extroverted feeling, which is what does the group think about good and bad?
00:45:01
Speaker
What do you think about good and bad?
00:45:03
Speaker
And I'm introverted feeling, which is here's what I think about good and bad.
00:45:06
Speaker
So like we are supplying each other with those inputs.
00:45:10
Speaker
And those are both
00:45:12
Speaker
idealist types.
00:45:14
Speaker
Like neither of us should be the chief technical officer of a tech startup.
00:45:20
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:45:21
Speaker
Like neither of us should be the office manager who makes sure that things get in on time and processes invoices and like shakes people down when they don't pay.
00:45:35
Speaker
Like we're going to, we're going to get along really well.
00:45:38
Speaker
But we together do not have all of the cognitive functions that a business needs to operate.
00:45:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:45
Speaker
Okay.
00:45:46
Speaker
Interestingly enough, if you have done a lot of shadow work, ENFPs can actually handle the office manager position.
00:45:54
Speaker
And then the CTO, I've met an INFJ.
00:45:58
Speaker
Okay, so why?
00:45:59
Speaker
Why can an INFJ do that if they've developed it?
00:46:03
Speaker
Because they have TI child, which is precise and true.
00:46:07
Speaker
And then they have to be in an organization that values the skill sets that they're developing.
00:46:11
Speaker
So they continue to develop them.
00:46:13
Speaker
But you're absolutely right.
00:46:15
Speaker
Those aren't the go-to guys for...
00:46:20
Speaker
for CTO or like, amen, but you will see them in those positions.
00:46:26
Speaker
Right.
00:46:26
Speaker
And that's the thing is, again, everybody does everything.
00:46:29
Speaker
It's more like, it's more a question of optimization because like I can, I can find the shakedown artists to get people to pay their bills to me.
00:46:38
Speaker
And I can find the engineer who's going to make sure that the machine runs smoothly.
00:46:43
Speaker
And my problem in that business arrangement is going to be questions of mutual understanding, questions of mutual goals, like are we aligned?
00:46:52
Speaker
Are we in harmony?
00:46:53
Speaker
And then if I'm with my golden pair guy, we're going to be like peas in a pod, getting along great, and things are going to fall through the cracks that neither of us caught.
00:47:01
Speaker
And it's just...
00:47:02
Speaker
It's just going to be, you know, you just pick your poison, right?
00:47:06
Speaker
What you're doing with this system is it sounds like you're helping people confront their finitude.
00:47:14
Speaker
The fact that, well, and maybe this is me and my ENFP lens, because we talked about a friend of ours who's also an ENFP who wanted to be everything.
00:47:24
Speaker
And you had to be like, no, you're not everything.
00:47:26
Speaker
You are these specific things.
00:47:28
Speaker
Like those things are good, but like you, you don't fill the space.
00:47:34
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:47:34
Speaker
Like there's, and part of that's like, you know, like you were saying with someone who is focused outward in a sensory way that, that implies that they can't be focused inward at the same time.
00:47:47
Speaker
And so if that's where you like to live, you're going to do less work, you know, in the other space.
00:47:54
Speaker
And so, yeah, so much of what this framework does is it tells you here's where you like to be and here's where your skill set lies.
00:48:04
Speaker
And therefore, here are the places that are more likely to be dark to you and frightening or anxiety inducing, insecure.
00:48:16
Speaker
And not only that, but also the finitude of others.
00:48:22
Speaker
So the things that you are really good at, it may seem to you that that's just the way that it is.
00:48:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:30
Speaker
So this creates a sort of kumbaya mentality.
00:48:34
Speaker
This is like the, we are all threads in this tapestry being woven together and I'm red and you're blue.
00:48:41
Speaker
We all fit together in this grand way.
00:48:45
Speaker
that we can't necessarily see because we're just these threads, right?
00:48:50
Speaker
And it's this holistic understanding of how everyone comes together.
00:48:55
Speaker
And consciously, some people find each other annoying.
00:48:59
Speaker
Some people find each other frustrating, right?
00:49:01
Speaker
Because the way that they're coming off, so it's competition oriented, right?
00:49:07
Speaker
I'm the dreamer.
00:49:08
Speaker
Why are you dreaming?
00:49:10
Speaker
My dreams are the cool dreams.
00:49:12
Speaker
Like,
00:49:13
Speaker
Like, I don't care about your dreams.
00:49:15
Speaker
And so there's naturally clashes and there's naturally misunderstandings.
00:49:20
Speaker
And they're supposed to be there.
00:49:21
Speaker
There's supposed to be this clash so that we can balance each other out.
00:49:26
Speaker
Right.
00:49:26
Speaker
Like, so if you have the dreamy ENFP, this visionary out in the abstract realm.
00:49:35
Speaker
Right.
00:49:35
Speaker
And then you have ESTP that comes in and literally shakes them, literally shakes them and says, pay attention.
00:49:43
Speaker
Pay attention.
00:49:44
Speaker
Because when the ENFP, we're just using this example, pays attention to the moment and sees the things, their predictions are better because they're including reality in their predictions.
00:49:59
Speaker
It's going into their introverted sensing.
00:50:03
Speaker
They're remembering what happened in the past.
00:50:06
Speaker
so that they can better predict the future.
00:50:08
Speaker
And the only way they can do that is if they get out of this super exciting dream place and start looking at specific people and start looking, because they're always people focused.
00:50:22
Speaker
How can I get people together?
00:50:24
Speaker
How can I lead them to this place?
00:50:26
Speaker
They will be better at doing that as they're more grounded and zeroing in on specific people and looking at like,
00:50:36
Speaker
the ground beneath them.
Reciprocal Relationships and Authority
00:50:38
Speaker
And the ESTP is going to want to do that all the time, right?
00:50:43
Speaker
Like, and bring them to that place.
00:50:45
Speaker
And then by contrast, the ENFP is going to be like, hey, ESTP, like, it's not just what you're seeing in front of you.
00:50:53
Speaker
It's also this broader vision.
00:50:56
Speaker
And let me show that to you.
00:50:58
Speaker
And the ESTP then can navigate his intense energy and interest
00:51:03
Speaker
towards this goal, right?
00:51:05
Speaker
That has then been placed in front of him by the ENFP who's looking more broadly.
00:51:11
Speaker
And so that's just one example of how types can help each other.
00:51:15
Speaker
because of their differing way of seeing things.
00:51:17
Speaker
Yeah, you definitely, if you can't bring your vision into the concrete, then you just sort of spin your wheels.
00:51:26
Speaker
But also, if you live in the concrete world and you never consider questions of meaning, questions of purpose, then you get into your 30s or 40s and you go, what was it all for?
00:51:41
Speaker
Like, what am I doing?
00:51:42
Speaker
What does this mean?
00:51:44
Speaker
And so, yeah, that's sort of the reciprocal relationship there.
00:51:48
Speaker
You have to remind the other that that world exists.
00:51:51
Speaker
And the same goes for the distinction between, you know, thinking and feeling.
00:51:56
Speaker
Like a guy like me is very much in the world of, is this morally right and wrong?
00:52:03
Speaker
How do I feel about this in my conscience?
00:52:04
Speaker
How do I feel about this spiritually?
00:52:06
Speaker
And a guy like you is very much like, is it factual?
00:52:10
Speaker
Is it efficient?
00:52:11
Speaker
Does it work?
00:52:12
Speaker
And so you and I have this constant dynamic where I am telling you, like, consider the spiritual angle to this and, like, trying to help you access that part of yourself that feels things, that has religious experiences.
00:52:29
Speaker
And you return with, like...
00:52:33
Speaker
okay, but this feels like bullshit, like this doesn't smell right.
00:52:38
Speaker
How does this fit the logical approach?
00:52:42
Speaker
And so there's a really fruitful reciprocity there.
00:52:47
Speaker
And part of my frustration in interactions like those is always kind of a sense of helplessness.
00:52:53
Speaker
Like, I don't know how to reach this person.
00:52:56
Speaker
I don't know how to connect with them.
00:52:58
Speaker
I don't know how to make them like me.
00:53:02
Speaker
Because I'm not... Because, you know, a person like that wants someone who's very responsible and responsive and paying attention.
00:53:09
Speaker
And that's just not...
00:53:12
Speaker
ever been who I am.
00:53:13
Speaker
And like, so my parents and like most of my teachers growing up, all of the authority figures were very much in that concrete realm.
00:53:21
Speaker
And I would be like, no, can't you think that it's cool, all these cool thoughts that I'm having and, you know, these visions and dreams.
00:53:28
Speaker
And they're like, well, but you can't, like, your shoes are untied and, you know, you didn't
00:53:34
Speaker
the dog didn't eat your homework kind of situation and having no visibility on like why that was the case.
00:53:43
Speaker
Like, why can't we get along?
00:53:44
Speaker
Why isn't this working?
00:53:46
Speaker
Made those interactions much more painful and challenging.
00:53:49
Speaker
But now that I'm like, I get the, like, I get why you're this way and I'm that way.
00:53:54
Speaker
And, and we can, I can, I can address you on your own terms and I can watch it work.
00:54:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:02
Speaker
And,
00:54:03
Speaker
Well, okay.
00:54:04
Speaker
And so let me give a little caveat here.
00:54:06
Speaker
Just because you can understand that like a dancer can dance fluidly and incredibly, and you can appreciate that.
00:54:18
Speaker
So the first step is understanding and appreciation.
00:54:21
Speaker
Second step is sort of like a form of embodiment, right?
00:54:24
Speaker
So in this case, the dancer can dance and you can be like, wow, what a great dance.
00:54:29
Speaker
right?
00:54:29
Speaker
But in the end, it benefits the person who's watching the dancer to learn how to dance, right?
00:54:35
Speaker
To actually enter the world of that person and live that experience, right?
00:54:42
Speaker
And so I would say there's different stages in growth.
00:54:45
Speaker
And one is to just be like, that world looks amazing.
00:54:50
Speaker
And for them, it is, right?
00:54:52
Speaker
Like, and some of them are less exciting than a dancer, right?
00:54:55
Speaker
Like, so the ISTJ
00:54:57
Speaker
accountant, judge type to go into that world and think if I were an ISTJ, I would love to create structure and rules and an order to, to these chaotic systems.
00:55:12
Speaker
And so, well, I want to move on to you personally.
00:55:17
Speaker
We've done a lot about like how you've helped your clients.
00:55:20
Speaker
You started this business later in your career and
00:55:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:25
Speaker
And it's a big transition from like your original undergrad track that you were on.
00:55:30
Speaker
So what do you think was in the way of getting this thing off the ground earlier?
00:55:38
Speaker
Not knowing what I want, right?
00:55:41
Speaker
So extrovert intuitives, they tend to figure out what they want by checking in with other people that know what they want.
00:55:50
Speaker
And then they think to themselves, I could do that.
00:55:52
Speaker
I could try that out.
00:55:53
Speaker
And so for me, that's what dental school was, is like, oh, my dad values the health field and I'm a smart guy and I'm really good at school.
00:56:03
Speaker
Dental school, done.
00:56:04
Speaker
I made that decision in a week and then that's what I did.
Career Transition and Personal Insights
00:56:10
Speaker
And then it was halfway into dental school where I was like, this was a terrible choice for me.
00:56:17
Speaker
And I relied on people that didn't know me very well to make a decision for me because I was missing that piece, right?
00:56:27
Speaker
Which a lot of, and then the other thing, well, INTPs often go into programming or computers and they tend to have more success there, right?
00:56:36
Speaker
Because they have a natural affinity to the online environment.
00:56:39
Speaker
And I bring that up because prior to deciding dental school, I was going to be a computer engineer, but I never did that.
00:56:46
Speaker
But lots and lots of INTPs go the programming route.
00:56:50
Speaker
Definitely the case in our group.
00:56:51
Speaker
We have lots of INTP programmers for sure.
00:56:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:55
Speaker
They like researching.
00:56:56
Speaker
They like being by themselves.
00:56:58
Speaker
They like things that make sense.
00:57:00
Speaker
It's a decent... And they have broad ranging ideas.
00:57:03
Speaker
So innovators for sure.
00:57:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:05
Speaker
And in their case, and this is how I interact with them as far as cognitive styles is like...
00:57:11
Speaker
When an INTP tells me that he's a programmer, I'm not, I'm not, my go-to is not like, oh, you hate to code and you're trying to learn to do something totally different.
00:57:21
Speaker
That does happen.
00:57:22
Speaker
But more often it's like, I want to code for myself.
00:57:26
Speaker
I want to do something for me.
00:57:27
Speaker
And it's more about that they're like chafing under the social requirements of being a corporate employee rather than they just hate the nature of the work they're doing.
00:57:36
Speaker
Yeah, um, they yeah, chafing is right.
00:57:40
Speaker
I've never loved strict, like authoritarian anything.
00:57:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:47
Speaker
And, and I'm sure I speak for just about every well, again, I don't want to speak for the free thinking IATPs here.
00:57:55
Speaker
But but yeah, like,
00:57:57
Speaker
Like that's the only time I'll get in someone's face is if they're telling me to do something and I don't feel like it.
00:58:03
Speaker
I'm not really a rebel.
00:58:05
Speaker
I just don't like having to be stuck in someone else's rule book.
00:58:11
Speaker
Yeah, like if you could just personally be left alone, like that would be enough.
00:58:16
Speaker
Like, you know, and that's probably part of why a guy like me is in my position is because I'm like, I hate that this is happening to the group.
00:58:27
Speaker
I hate this is happening to us.
00:58:29
Speaker
And so like, I'm going to bring everybody together and we're going to fight.
00:58:33
Speaker
We're going to compile all our resources.
00:58:35
Speaker
I'm going to get all of your big smart brains aligned and we're going to
00:58:41
Speaker
resist.
00:58:42
Speaker
Whereas for an INTP, the natural, and you know, again, everybody can do everything, but the natural inclination is I hate this.
00:58:52
Speaker
Like I, I really hate being told what to do.
00:58:56
Speaker
And I would like to be left alone.
00:58:58
Speaker
Like they're not, they're not, they're not trying to go to war.
00:59:01
Speaker
They're, they're trying to be left alone.
00:59:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:59:05
Speaker
We're masters of apathy.
00:59:07
Speaker
Like we can ignore you, eat like without too much effort.
00:59:12
Speaker
So that's the virtue.
00:59:13
Speaker
Actually, we didn't go into it on the last podcast, but every type has a virtue in vice.
00:59:18
Speaker
And so the virtue of the INTP is attention.
00:59:22
Speaker
So just as zeroed in and attentive as someone can humanly be, or the opposite, which is apathy, you do not exist, right?
00:59:32
Speaker
Like,
00:59:33
Speaker
It's not I'm going to destroy you.
00:59:35
Speaker
It's that I you have none of my intents like like I'm not going to look at you.
00:59:43
Speaker
I'm going to go on my own and ignore everyone.
00:59:47
Speaker
Well, that's almost the same thing as attention.
00:59:51
Speaker
I'm going to point this laser beam at not you.
00:59:57
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:59:58
Speaker
Because my entire attention and my entire focus is on this thing that I think is cool.
01:00:04
Speaker
You don't exist anymore.
01:00:05
Speaker
And my experience, yeah, it's the same.
01:00:09
Speaker
I can get
01:00:10
Speaker
super zeroed in and obsessed.
01:00:13
Speaker
Like, like 14 hours, just like I'm studying and learning and learning and learning and more, more, more, more information.
01:00:22
Speaker
And I will learn a thing completely.
01:00:24
Speaker
Yeah.
01:00:25
Speaker
And then if that thing ceases to be compelling, I'll still remember it.
01:00:30
Speaker
And then I'll find this other thing.
01:00:32
Speaker
And then I'll, I'll obsess about that for, for a while.
01:00:35
Speaker
And so it's this moving of this like intense attention, attention,
01:00:40
Speaker
Ray, essentially.
01:00:41
Speaker
And that's the learning process.
01:00:44
Speaker
So I think this is a good place to start talking about the hot seat.
01:00:48
Speaker
So at exit, we introduce the guys in the smaller group calls.
Exit Group Experience
01:00:53
Speaker
We talk about challenges that they're up against, projects that they're working on.
01:00:57
Speaker
And then if someone is either in a bad situation, like they're being doxxed or they're about to be fired over a vax mandate or something, or if they're just having like a business challenge, we...
01:01:10
Speaker
get the whole group together.
01:01:12
Speaker
And it's usually like 30 or 40 guys on a call.
01:01:15
Speaker
And we dig into what they're up against and we get guidance.
01:01:20
Speaker
We marshal resources.
01:01:21
Speaker
We say, who could this guy talk to that would help him?
01:01:23
Speaker
Are there places that we can send his resume?
01:01:27
Speaker
So tell me about what that experience was like for you.
01:01:30
Speaker
You were in the hot seat last night.
01:01:32
Speaker
Tell us about that experience.
01:01:33
Speaker
It was tremendously positive.
01:01:35
Speaker
So I went in there and I'm a very authentic person.
01:01:40
Speaker
I don't mind talking about just about anything.
01:01:43
Speaker
And so I was able to walk into that ready to listen.
01:01:48
Speaker
And so I think coming into that hot seat experience
01:01:51
Speaker
with openness and interest is that's how you'll get the most out of it.
01:01:55
Speaker
I've made it a rule that I don't tell somebody that they need a hot seat.
01:01:59
Speaker
They come to me.
01:02:00
Speaker
And so far, there's a pretty steady supply.
01:02:04
Speaker
Every week or two weeks, we have somebody who runs into something and the guys, the guys love it.
01:02:10
Speaker
They love, you know, chewing through a problem as a group.
01:02:13
Speaker
They love the sense of support that they get to provide to somebody.
01:02:16
Speaker
It's
01:02:17
Speaker
It's a really cool experience for everybody, but continue.
01:02:19
Speaker
Yeah, so I won't delve into this because I don't want to detract from the explanation, but different types will offer different specific aspects of perspective.
01:02:27
Speaker
Sure.
01:02:28
Speaker
So I'll find that the extroverted feeling users will pick up on my emotional state and they'll say, hey, did you consider that you may be feeling this way, right?
01:02:38
Speaker
And the more pragmatic extroverted feeling users, like an ENTP, for instance, will ask hard-hitting questions that might make me uncomfortable.
01:02:47
Speaker
Whereas like an ENFJ, who's an extrovert feeler as well, is going to be more careful about not putting me in a challenging position.
01:02:55
Speaker
But I appreciated all of the people, right?
01:02:58
Speaker
Because the hard hitting questions forced me to analyze aspects of my experience that were holding me back, that were preventing me from making jump that would make my life better.
01:03:10
Speaker
What do you mean specifically?
01:03:11
Speaker
So as I was talking, someone in the group mentioned, hey, Scott, it seems like
01:03:17
Speaker
like just by the way that you're talking, that maybe something that's holding you back was, and these are the words, more or less, a catastrophic failure in the past.
01:03:28
Speaker
And I was like, accurate, this is true.
01:03:32
Speaker
And then I had a very emotional experience as a result, because that was a very difficult trying time in my life.
01:03:41
Speaker
And I know that that part of me
01:03:44
Speaker
keeps me from moving forward in some dimensions.
01:03:48
Speaker
So he asks these hard hitting questions.
01:03:51
Speaker
And then I'm forced to reflect on the fact that these things are holding me back.
01:03:58
Speaker
And that puts me in a really vulnerable state, which causes more people to respond and offer advice.
01:04:03
Speaker
So is this cascade of useful advice and helpful perspective.
01:04:09
Speaker
And so people offered their they said,
01:04:11
Speaker
Hey, like, have you thought about putting these ideas in a book?
01:04:16
Speaker
And then we got to talk about that.
01:04:20
Speaker
And we talked specifically about why you don't want to do that.
01:04:25
Speaker
And what about that is not cool to you?
01:04:28
Speaker
What about that is in the way?
01:04:30
Speaker
And we got to tease apart...
01:04:33
Speaker
Like some of this is like, there are good reasons.
01:04:36
Speaker
Like you, you know, you, you, you prefer the sort of extemporaneous flow of a conversation.
01:04:43
Speaker
Like it's good to play to your strengths, but also there was like, I'm insecure about having enough content to fill a book.
01:04:51
Speaker
And we were, we were able to be like, okay, well, but that objection is kind of bullshit.
01:04:54
Speaker
Like you, you clearly have enough content to fill a book.
01:04:59
Speaker
So it's not about that.
01:05:00
Speaker
It may like,
01:05:02
Speaker
what I, what I loved about that conversation was that we weren't, we weren't dismissing any objections.
01:05:08
Speaker
We were dealing with them.
01:05:10
Speaker
We were exploring like, to what extent are these obstacles, real obstacles?
01:05:17
Speaker
To what extent are they emotional obstacles?
01:05:21
Speaker
Not that, not that real and emotional or opposites certainly, but, um, a practical versus emotional.
01:05:28
Speaker
Um,
01:05:30
Speaker
And so, so yeah, that, that piece of it was really cool to me.
01:05:33
Speaker
So go on.
01:05:34
Speaker
Yeah.
01:05:35
Speaker
And then, um, and so that was, that was really good.
01:05:38
Speaker
And then, um, I got help from, uh, the ENFJs and they're just like, Scott, you're awesome.
01:05:45
Speaker
And I'm like, uh, am I?
01:05:47
Speaker
And then they're like, yeah, I'm like, okay.
01:05:51
Speaker
And that's kind of the, yeah, that's kind of how that goes.
01:05:54
Speaker
I constantly want to break this down in terms of functions because that's, you know, that's my obsession.
01:05:58
Speaker
That's my passion.
01:05:59
Speaker
But I'm trying to keep this all very concrete.
01:06:02
Speaker
So, yeah, so I got advice about, hey, Scott, you have a passion.
01:06:08
Speaker
Follow it.
01:06:09
Speaker
That feeling you have, we like it.
01:06:12
Speaker
We like that you have this emotional aspect to your personality and we're happy to hear it.
01:06:19
Speaker
And so I got to sort of
01:06:20
Speaker
It was about an INTP expressing his feelings about his ideas and navigating that emotional space.
01:06:27
Speaker
And for me, just for all the listeners, that is a very difficult space for me to navigate.
01:06:34
Speaker
And so it was fantastic having all of these intelligent, insightful, pointed comments from a broad array of people from lots of backgrounds, right?
01:06:48
Speaker
Like lots of flashlights.
01:06:50
Speaker
like zooming in on, on this, this, this challenge that I'm facing.
01:06:56
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:56
Speaker
And, you know, I think there's, there's the piece of it that is validation.
01:07:01
Speaker
There's knowing that you've got people in your corner and like the, well, it's funny because, you know, as, as the, as the ENFP, I'm supposed to
01:07:13
Speaker
find that really valuable.
01:07:14
Speaker
But I guess I almost have like a defensiveness about that piece of it.
01:07:18
Speaker
Like, okay, it should be that, but it has to be also more.
01:07:21
Speaker
It has to be something practical that cashes out.
01:07:24
Speaker
And maybe that's just, yeah, like I was saying, my response to my anticipation of an objection, right?
01:07:31
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
01:07:31
Speaker
because I love to tell people that they're great and they're going to do great.
01:07:36
Speaker
And, you know, as I mature and get older, I realize that I have to also back that with something more.
01:07:42
Speaker
Again, I keep wanting to say real.
01:07:44
Speaker
I need to back that with something more concrete.
01:07:46
Speaker
And so...
01:07:47
Speaker
And so part of what we discussed was, you know, here are directions you can go.
High-Dollar Consulting and Fiction Analysis
01:07:53
Speaker
We also connected you with some referrals of like, you know, here's a guy who, so we talked about how you need to do high dollar coaching, right?
01:08:00
Speaker
Because you like deep diving.
01:08:02
Speaker
You like an intensive approach.
01:08:04
Speaker
kind of all consuming relationship with a single problem.
01:08:08
Speaker
I love it.
01:08:09
Speaker
Yeah.
01:08:09
Speaker
So rather than having your day filled with a lot of shallow, maybe pedagogical opportunities where you're just sort of sprinkling these concepts across a broad audience.
01:08:20
Speaker
You want to take one person and just like a mechanic, just dig into all of the machinery and explore that space with them.
01:08:28
Speaker
And so we talked about like, well, that probably means you need to do high dollar consulting.
01:08:32
Speaker
You need to do extended engagements that take a lot of your time and pay a lot of your salary.
01:08:37
Speaker
And so we found a guy who does that type of consulting and who has connections to a network full of those types of customers and, you know, sent you in that direction.
01:08:49
Speaker
So like there was the emotional side of it, which I think is valuable.
01:08:53
Speaker
And then there was also this practical, you know, here's how we're actually going to build this business in the real world.
01:08:59
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:00
Speaker
And for me, I need both of those things.
01:09:03
Speaker
Right.
01:09:04
Speaker
But one of those, which is the validation, it's almost impossible for me to do for myself.
01:09:09
Speaker
Like I can hop into business mode without too much trouble.
01:09:14
Speaker
But in terms of my blind spots, having sort of the moral enthusiasm is almost impossible for me to provide.
01:09:23
Speaker
And so in terms of, so first off,
01:09:27
Speaker
100% the practical applications, I would agree.
01:09:30
Speaker
And I'm really grateful.
01:09:33
Speaker
Yeah, actually, both of those matter a great deal.
01:09:37
Speaker
And one of them is just harder for me to get.
01:09:39
Speaker
And so...
01:09:42
Speaker
Yeah, in the end, because one of them prompts me to moving and accomplishing things because I know that people appreciate and like, in a sense, the things that I'm offering.
01:09:55
Speaker
And that may be a weak side of me.
01:09:58
Speaker
But it's a side that it's a weight.
01:10:00
Speaker
And so having people to help me tease that out in the group was a really great experience.
01:10:07
Speaker
But to your point, everything about that call was super helpful.
01:10:11
Speaker
Awesome.
01:10:11
Speaker
Yeah, I'm really glad to hear it.
01:10:13
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:14
Speaker
So and that's, you know, I feel like that's a huge component of the value that the guys get from the group.
01:10:19
Speaker
Not just the opportunity, you know, we've probably had a dozen hot seats at this point, maybe not quite a dozen.
01:10:26
Speaker
And so obviously not all the members have had that experience yet, but I think being able to participate in those hot seats and learn about someone else's challenges and help them through them is a really powerful experience for a lot of the guys.
01:10:39
Speaker
And that's something that I'm really, that I'm really proud of that we've built.
01:10:42
Speaker
And it's amazing how much, I don't know, when I first started, I was nervous that like there wouldn't be that much to say or like that it wouldn't be like all that insightful or meaningful, that it would be a lot of like kind of platitudes or cliches.
01:10:59
Speaker
And it's been a total, it's been the opposite of that.
01:11:03
Speaker
It's been, the guys have such incredible insight.
01:11:05
Speaker
They're so, they're just deep, deep guys and so willing to help.
01:11:09
Speaker
So it's an incredible experience.
01:11:12
Speaker
So one of the most fun ideas to come out of the hot seat last night was running a podcast where you cover fictional characters from a Jungian typology perspective.
01:11:26
Speaker
Like how does Gimli interact with Legolas on the basis of cognitive stack?
01:11:32
Speaker
So tell me a little bit about what's cool about that to you as opposed to writing a static book or like building a curriculum.
01:11:40
Speaker
Yeah.
01:11:40
Speaker
And as soon as you said Gimli and Legolas, I immediately started thinking of like, whoa, they're a bronze pair.
01:11:46
Speaker
They have actually high compatibility.
01:11:48
Speaker
Yeah.
01:11:48
Speaker
And surprise, surprise, they hang out with each other the whole way through the book and they have their little back and forth.
01:11:53
Speaker
Well, I was just, so I've been running a little thing like where I was teaching people for, for years.
01:11:59
Speaker
And in, in recent memory, gosh, those, those, the days where we, where we just typed some of the characters in books that we liked, like we had people talking and it was, it was just this loud, vibrant experience.
01:12:13
Speaker
And it was, it was a, it was a blast and it was,
01:12:16
Speaker
It was silly and stupid and hilarious.
01:12:19
Speaker
It was a great energy.
01:12:20
Speaker
And in terms of like what attracts people to ideas, it's fun.
01:12:25
Speaker
It's frivolity.
01:12:26
Speaker
And yeah, the idea of creating a YouTube channel or just the point of entry where we can have a fun time.
01:12:33
Speaker
Like I know it'll work, right?
01:12:35
Speaker
Because over like, yeah, so I've had like academic sessions where I teach people about the shadow and I teach people about what this looks like.
01:12:43
Speaker
And it's very
01:12:44
Speaker
professorial and bar none, awesome engagement from everyone in the crew, introverts included.
01:12:51
Speaker
Some people be like, there's no way Frodo could possibly be this.
01:12:55
Speaker
And like just these in passion responses.
01:12:58
Speaker
And yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was awesome.
01:13:02
Speaker
I think, I think there's a huge, there's a huge value in the ability to drum up non-serious controversy.
01:13:09
Speaker
Like people will get like performatively upset when,
01:13:14
Speaker
that you got the character wrong.
01:13:17
Speaker
But like, it's still in this like playful space.
01:13:20
Speaker
And so people get to be kind of loud and almost lampoon internet controversy itself by picking these fights over these silly things.
01:13:28
Speaker
And I think also one of the reasons why I got started on Twitter, or rather, one of the reasons why I got so absorbed by Twitter
01:13:37
Speaker
was that it's these little silly things that I could write about.
01:13:41
Speaker
They were just throwaways.
01:13:42
Speaker
Like I didn't have to worry about whether it was good or not because I was going to do 50 of them in a day.
01:13:47
Speaker
And, you know, you have some bangers, you have some good hits and, you know, a bunch of a miss and that's fine.
01:13:53
Speaker
And so I think it appealed to my desire to overcome that insecurity of like, is this good enough?
01:14:01
Speaker
Am I, you know, have I edited it exquisitely?
01:14:04
Speaker
And that really unlocked a lot of creativity for me that I'm now able to deploy.
01:14:09
Speaker
Like I just published a short story and I'm doing things that are more of the hard thing.
01:14:14
Speaker
But now I do it because I have the confidence that I developed from lots of people on Twitter being like, hey, you need to write a book or a story or whatever.
01:14:20
Speaker
Yeah.
01:14:21
Speaker
I love this podcast idea because it's such a great bunny slope.
01:14:24
Speaker
Like it's so, it's just going to, you're just going to flow.
01:14:27
Speaker
It's so easy to talk about and people are going to like it.
01:14:30
Speaker
They're going to think it's funny and it's definitely going to be an entree into the markets that you're, that you're hoping to exploit.
01:14:38
Speaker
So I'm really excited to see, to see this podcast, uh, come to life.
01:14:42
Speaker
And I'm also happy to serve on the podcast.
01:14:45
Speaker
If you, uh,
01:14:46
Speaker
Yeah, a guest appearance.
01:14:48
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
01:14:50
Speaker
100%.
01:14:50
Speaker
I would love to be a part of it.
01:14:52
Speaker
So in addition to joining the group, you and I are also collaborating on a placement survey that uses your knowledge of Jungian typology to help our guys figure out an exit plan that's a good fit for them temperamentally.
01:15:04
Speaker
So I want to talk about some examples.
01:15:06
Speaker
I'm an ENFP, which means I'm a starter type.
01:15:08
Speaker
I like the excitement of the beginning of things.
01:15:12
Speaker
I like lots of options.
01:15:14
Speaker
I just did a write-up on franchising, where you essentially buy into a business and you execute their business model.
01:15:22
Speaker
And that...
01:15:25
Speaker
would be a really bad fit for a guy like me because the part that I like is the beginning and throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks.
01:15:32
Speaker
And with a franchise operation, not only do you not have to do that, they won't let you do that.
01:15:37
Speaker
If you come up with a new idea, you got to run it all the way up the corporate chain and they've got to come back down and give you a dispensation to do that.
01:15:44
Speaker
Yeah.
01:15:45
Speaker
So there's lots of dimensions to this.
01:15:48
Speaker
Tell me, give me an idea of another temperament type and where you would tell them would be a good place to explore.
01:15:56
Speaker
Sure.
01:15:56
Speaker
And just talking about your franchising example, I was thinking of what are the types that would do well with a franchise.
01:16:03
Speaker
And so in the idealist category, you have two that would do well or better with a franchise.
01:16:09
Speaker
And that would be the INFJ and the ENFJ because they want to go in and they have their own ambitions, but it's more soft skills generating relationships.
01:16:20
Speaker
They're not interested in building relationships.
01:16:22
Speaker
the business structure as much as they are building a social network and group of people.
01:16:27
Speaker
Right.
01:16:27
Speaker
So the thing that they want to build within that franchise is free for them.
01:16:32
Speaker
Whereas the stuff that's challenging for them is already done by, by the group themselves.
01:16:37
Speaker
But even more perfectly a franchisee, perhaps an ESTJ would be an excellent person who can come in and maintain the environment really well.
01:16:46
Speaker
Right.
01:16:46
Speaker
Because they're respecters of tradition.
01:16:48
Speaker
of order.
01:16:49
Speaker
They're interested in precise allocation of work to get optimal outcomes.
01:16:57
Speaker
So like, are you in the Henry Ford factory making things as efficient as possible, right?
01:17:04
Speaker
Like the ESTJ can come in and help that be maintained.
01:17:07
Speaker
So what about there's lots of these independent trade businesses?
01:17:13
Speaker
What's the type of temperament that that's the best fit for?
01:17:16
Speaker
Yeah.
01:17:17
Speaker
So I think you might be able to flex an ENFJ or an ENTJ into a trade, right?
01:17:22
Speaker
Because SE Child, you know, enjoys working with their hands.
01:17:25
Speaker
But really, the trades are going to feel much more natural.
01:17:29
Speaker
for the ESFP and the ESTP.
01:17:32
Speaker
Those are the ones.
01:17:33
Speaker
And then for the ISFP and the ISTP, you're still going to want to work with your hands, but you like having your one-man operations.
01:17:41
Speaker
Whereas the ESTP and the ESFP, they're going to run the crew of lawn mowing businesses and it's enjoyable for them and they're outgoing and they get to be doing stuff and paying attention to all these details all the time.
01:17:53
Speaker
I personally know a family and they have two ESFPs
01:17:58
Speaker
each of them own their own tiling company.
01:18:01
Speaker
So this is very common for especially the extroverted sensing dominance.
01:18:07
Speaker
In my experience, most notably ESFPs.
01:18:10
Speaker
Yeah, so maybe at the point where your business becomes too big for you and it's time to scale it.
01:18:17
Speaker
Like suppose you've got...
01:18:19
Speaker
an ESTP and an ISTP who both own a small business and it's time to scale it.
01:18:27
Speaker
They're getting more work than they can personally do.
01:18:30
Speaker
So maybe an ISTP scaling strategy is more like I need to sell this business or I need to put myself in a position where I am advisory
01:18:42
Speaker
or I'm deploying my expertise rather than my time so that it stays kind of a one-man operation and they're not supervising employees.
01:18:50
Speaker
But then an ESTP might take the approach of it's time to hire on hands and it's time to, you know, maybe once I've got more than a crew, it's time to hire a crew chief and supervise him.
01:19:05
Speaker
And because I can hang in that social world and I want to, I have the energy to do that.
01:19:09
Speaker
It's exactly like you said.
01:19:10
Speaker
So the ISTP is going to want to have a little more control, right?
01:19:14
Speaker
Because the social energy is a little harder to muster.
01:19:18
Speaker
So they're going to be more reticent to pull in new people.
01:19:24
Speaker
But an ESTP is more likely to want to bring in more people in the tripod.
01:19:29
Speaker
Now, in both of those cases, the right fit temperamentally to walk into a business partner is an STJ.
01:19:36
Speaker
You're going to want an STJ partner if you're going to begin expanding on existing framework.
01:19:43
Speaker
So someone who can say, how do we codify
01:19:47
Speaker
the extroverted sensing's approach in a way that we can teach and transfer to more people, right?
01:19:54
Speaker
How can we develop a sort of rule book to live by, right?
01:19:57
Speaker
Because that's what they're looking for.
01:19:58
Speaker
They're looking for traditions,
01:20:00
Speaker
effective execution.
01:20:03
Speaker
And this guy is proof that the way he's doing it is good.
01:20:07
Speaker
So if I can just create a little rule book, I can then teach.
01:20:12
Speaker
So essentially it's a natural fit.
01:20:13
Speaker
It's a natural fit, the STJ and the STP.
01:20:16
Speaker
Yeah.
01:20:16
Speaker
And so there's all kinds of angles to this.
01:20:19
Speaker
There's what type of job would you like?
01:20:22
Speaker
There's what's the future trajectory of that job?
01:20:25
Speaker
Because like we said, with the extroverted, introverted artisan type,
01:20:30
Speaker
You can go very different directions.
01:20:31
Speaker
There's also, like you're saying, what kind of partner do you need?
01:20:36
Speaker
Who completes you, so to speak?
01:20:38
Speaker
So the idea behind this survey is to gather that information more efficiently and more precisely maybe than...
01:20:47
Speaker
some of the other quizzes that are out there and also gather information about like, you know, where are you currently?
01:20:54
Speaker
Are you where you want to be or are you trying to switch to something else?
01:20:57
Speaker
And then say, all right, given this information, you probably need to pick up some Python.
01:21:04
Speaker
or you probably need to start a trade business or you need to or maybe or maybe it's not a professional thing for you.
01:21:12
Speaker
Maybe you need to keep your day job and start building side income that makes you more robust or or learn some.
01:21:21
Speaker
homesteading type skills or some like DIY type skills.
01:21:24
Speaker
And so the goal would be to have people come into the group with that level of self-knowledge that's like, oh, okay, here are some things that I could be looking for in the group.
01:21:36
Speaker
Yeah.
01:21:36
Speaker
So going back to getting started in this consulting business, I think it can be challenging for guys of your type to get started, to
01:21:46
Speaker
leave their comfort zone, display ambition, sell themselves.
01:21:50
Speaker
So you made this decision to launch this business relatively recently, although you've been doing this kind of work for people essentially for free for a long time.
01:22:02
Speaker
How did getting into the group help you to crack through some of those obstacles?
Charging for Services and Social Proof
01:22:10
Speaker
Well, you know, that was a jump.
01:22:12
Speaker
So I guess if we're using INTP language, I don't have a history of being an exit group.
01:22:18
Speaker
It's not something that I've done.
01:22:20
Speaker
And so doing that puts me in a space where I'm already exiting my comfort zone with a desire to find and navigate change and opportunity.
01:22:32
Speaker
Right.
01:22:32
Speaker
And so for an INTP, it's a new space.
01:22:35
Speaker
It's a new space.
01:22:36
Speaker
And so that sort of set me up to be prepared to make further entries into foreign territory, which is...
01:22:46
Speaker
Now I'm this expert that is, that has people that have expectations of me, that there is a client relationship.
01:22:56
Speaker
These are all very new frames by which to put my ideas, right?
01:23:01
Speaker
So as you said, I did it for a very, very long time, years, just like
01:23:10
Speaker
as as uh passing advice to to friends or family and um and so it was nice to be in an environment in which there were people who were excited about my idea right like i can know that my idea is true i like ti hero yeah like yeah it's it makes sense it's correct it works does anybody care
01:23:32
Speaker
Does anybody care about this?
01:23:34
Speaker
Yeah.
01:23:34
Speaker
And then finding a group of people that did indeed care a great deal enough so that, you know, they they pay for it was to put it frankly, miraculous.
01:23:47
Speaker
Right.
01:23:47
Speaker
Because prior to that, I and then and then I'd get pushback from people that say, Scott, stop doing
01:23:55
Speaker
like free is not the cost of the thing that you're doing.
01:23:59
Speaker
Free is not right.
01:24:01
Speaker
And I was like, okay, okay, well then what is right?
01:24:05
Speaker
And that's an FI, that's a value question.
01:24:09
Speaker
So INTPs, we source that from the tribe.
01:24:12
Speaker
So we're not getting this internally.
01:24:15
Speaker
So I'm looking outwards to be like, okay, what is the cost of this?
01:24:19
Speaker
And then I got a massive array of opinions.
01:24:22
Speaker
Yeah.
01:24:23
Speaker
And then I had to choose, okay, well, which one am I going to try out?
01:24:26
Speaker
And then I had to try out a couple price points and then some of them worked.
01:24:30
Speaker
And what was really interesting, which I had never considered prior, was that the simple fact that people are...
01:24:39
Speaker
providing monetary capital in support of the thing that I'm providing has created a group of people that follow my advice.
01:24:49
Speaker
And that feels amazing.
01:24:51
Speaker
Right.
01:24:51
Speaker
So giving it for free.
01:24:53
Speaker
No one.
01:24:54
Speaker
Yeah.
01:24:55
Speaker
Like it's free.
01:24:56
Speaker
So how good could it really be?
01:24:57
Speaker
You know?
01:24:58
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
01:24:59
Speaker
And that didn't it didn't change the content.
01:25:02
Speaker
It just changed how people looked at it.
01:25:05
Speaker
It's it's it's maddening.
01:25:07
Speaker
Well, look, I'm I'm open to making more and earning more and that sort of thing.
01:25:15
Speaker
But I guess sometimes there is this sort of, I guess...
01:25:22
Speaker
misunderstanding about like the material itself has is the same now as it was like a few months ago in terms of intellectual content right yeah and the only difference was people pay for it and yeah so i don't i don't know if i'm articulating this well but that was a point of frustration realizing all those years that i was doing it for free and people and some people would apply but primarily it was just looked at like
01:25:51
Speaker
I don't know.
01:25:52
Speaker
There's something about paying for something that is motivating.
01:25:56
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
01:25:59
Speaker
And it's something that I'm learning now.
01:26:01
Speaker
I mean, if nothing else, like I think there's definitely an effect where somebody pays and then they decide they care on the basis of having paid.
01:26:09
Speaker
But I think also it just sorts for the people who really want to move.
01:26:14
Speaker
Yeah.
01:26:15
Speaker
Because the people who don't, the people who aren't going to take you seriously just don't pay you.
01:26:20
Speaker
And so you just don't do it and you don't have that frustration.
01:26:23
Speaker
And I've definitely had guys express interest in like a trial of exit group where like, let me just go in and see what it's like and try it out.
01:26:32
Speaker
And I'm like, no, like, because...
01:26:37
Speaker
I want people in the group who are committed to the group, not just like, not just in terms of like, I want them to like move their ass, which I do because I want their life to be better.
01:26:47
Speaker
And I know that we have these tools that can make that happen.
01:26:50
Speaker
But also I want them to be available to other people.
01:26:54
Speaker
And the type of guy who is willing to pay to be part of this community is the type of guy who's going to care enough to say like, yeah, I can, I can answer questions about,
01:27:05
Speaker
Python or how to get this kind of a job or this trade that I'm working on.
01:27:14
Speaker
The investment radically changes who the group is.
01:27:18
Speaker
Yeah.
01:27:19
Speaker
So you've also mentioned to me that a big part of your challenge is
01:27:26
Speaker
with money is like, you know a lot of people who are wealthy and profoundly unhappy.
01:27:32
Speaker
And so your desire for comfort and your resistance to change and your resistance to ambition was very much like vindicated by your personal experience.
01:27:45
Speaker
Like why would I get out of my cozy spot and put in a huge amount of effort and work into this project
01:27:56
Speaker
so that I can make money when that money is clearly not solving my fundamental problems.
01:28:02
Speaker
You, and I think a lot of INTPs, you could be very happy living very simply.
01:28:08
Speaker
And so the idea of, it's not like you're not ambitious because you just don't have whatever moral virtue defines ambition.
01:28:18
Speaker
It's more the case that because you have the capacity to live simply,
01:28:24
Speaker
You value comfort.
01:28:26
Speaker
The risk reward trade-off for putting yourself out there as an entrepreneur is very, very different than a guy who really wants to live in France and go to fancy parties and have a private jet.
01:28:43
Speaker
If that desire really animates him, then it's easy for him to put in the work.
01:28:48
Speaker
But you're like, what am I going to do with money?
01:28:51
Speaker
What is the point?
01:28:53
Speaker
And I think as part of these conversations, as part of getting this business off the ground, you're kind of discovering, you just like the money is partly social proof.
01:29:04
Speaker
And it's partly like, you know, I need to be able to dedicate myself to this.
01:29:08
Speaker
And so I don't want to be trying to do this while I'm flipping burgers.
01:29:12
Speaker
But beyond that, the way to get in touch with your ambition is to attack what you're really ambitious about, which is
01:29:22
Speaker
helping other people and taking your TI, taking your introverted thinking, your ideas, the conclusions that you've come to and seeing them enacted in the real world.
01:29:34
Speaker
Yes.
01:29:35
Speaker
Well, yeah.
01:29:35
Speaker
Preach.
01:29:36
Speaker
Yeah, exactly that.
01:29:38
Speaker
Yeah.
01:29:39
Speaker
I come from a family with lots of people who have done very well for themselves.
01:29:45
Speaker
Yeah.
01:29:45
Speaker
Yeah.
01:29:47
Speaker
And, and it is, yeah, it was, it was good to like put, put a pin in the idea that understanding that making mountains money is not a good end game for me.
01:30:02
Speaker
Right.
01:30:02
Speaker
As evidenced by concrete, real examples that I can see on a daily basis.
01:30:08
Speaker
And also, yes, I, I, I desperately want like the, the ideas that I have,
01:30:16
Speaker
to impact the world in a positive way.
01:30:22
Speaker
Like that's my, yeah, I just feel strongly about that.
01:30:27
Speaker
Yeah, and so maybe that gets you out of bed when the money wouldn't.
01:30:30
Speaker
Yeah, but then people tell me this is a thing that you must attend to.
01:30:37
Speaker
This is a thing that you have to pay attention to.
01:30:39
Speaker
And then I often will feel, I don't know, like I suppose you could say it's a luxury not to care
01:30:46
Speaker
And maybe it is, but I do live very simply.
01:30:50
Speaker
And I like having all of my freedom dedicated to the intellectual world and to helping and supporting people that I care about.
01:30:59
Speaker
I like having that freedom.
01:31:00
Speaker
And when I entangle myself financially with tons of options and stocks, what is that?
01:31:06
Speaker
It detracts from my ability to do the thing that I want and that I love doing.
01:31:11
Speaker
Yeah.
01:31:11
Speaker
And I think that's probably less the case for my cognitive style.
01:31:18
Speaker
Yeah.
01:31:18
Speaker
But I think we are both in this position of like, I wouldn't run an entrepreneurship group just to run an entrepreneurship group, like one that was dedicated to like, we're all going to go get paid.
01:31:29
Speaker
Yeah.
01:31:30
Speaker
That would not appeal to me because like, I also just don't have a lot of expensive appetites.
01:31:36
Speaker
And, you know, it is a ton of work and, you know, it has to mean something for me.
01:31:41
Speaker
Like the, and also just like in terms of the type of group that it would attract.
01:31:47
Speaker
And maybe this is my like FI talking, like, do I feel right about this?
01:31:51
Speaker
Do I feel good about this?
01:31:52
Speaker
Yeah.
01:31:53
Speaker
It's really important to me.
01:31:54
Speaker
It's really important to me that the guys that I am attracting and the goals that I am making happen for other people,
01:32:03
Speaker
are in line with my conscience.
01:32:04
Speaker
And that was a huge challenge working for all these corporations.
01:32:08
Speaker
It's like the morally correct decision was to drag my feet.
01:32:13
Speaker
And like the financially remunerative decision was to work really hard.
01:32:20
Speaker
And, you know, like there's obviously like the moral complication of like taking somebody's money for a job you're not really doing.
01:32:27
Speaker
But because it was, but because, you know, working hard for those people was so at odds with what I actually believed in, it was much more easy to like tell myself a story of like, ah, it'll
Entrepreneurship and Personal Values
01:32:38
Speaker
wait a day.
01:32:38
Speaker
You know, like I'll get it done, but it'll wait a day.
01:32:40
Speaker
And with this, I have a phone call with every one of those guys and I get to know what their big dream is.
01:32:46
Speaker
And it's always this really beautiful dream.
01:32:48
Speaker
It's always like, I want my, I want to be able to raise my kids in a healthier way.
01:32:55
Speaker
I want to, I want to be able to say what I think and, and, and, and do what I really believe in and be successful in this like legacy building way.
01:33:05
Speaker
Like I want to be successful so that I can hire people who need help.
01:33:10
Speaker
I want to, I want to be successful so that my, so that my kids have flexibility and freedom that I didn't have.
01:33:17
Speaker
Or in particular, a lot of them are like, I want to have the freedom so that my wife doesn't have to work so that she can raise the kids and so that we can live on land where the kids can have this experience that seems to be a lot healthier than a lot of, you know, sort of urban and suburban upbringings.
01:33:33
Speaker
And so like, I am just,
01:33:35
Speaker
amped to help those guys.
01:33:37
Speaker
And it's very important to me that they succeed.
01:33:40
Speaker
And so you found this zone where what you're good at providing also meshes with what you value and what you want to get back.
01:33:50
Speaker
Yeah.
01:33:50
Speaker
And I think that our hearts yearn for these noble pieces of ourselves that emerge as we move towards things that we feel passionate about.
01:34:02
Speaker
Not just passion, but like vision and clarity.
01:34:05
Speaker
Like I've been learning, obviously, young is an influence for me.
01:34:11
Speaker
And then you have Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey and this amalgamation or collection of thousands of hero myths.
01:34:21
Speaker
And then the takeaways of that, that cross culturally across the globe, we have all these different people
01:34:28
Speaker
speaking similar stories in in very different ways unique to their culture and and it's this sort of this desire to to break free to become more to search for um gifts and opportunities and return triumphant to the people that you care about as a changed person yeah and uh
01:34:52
Speaker
And I know that that rings true for it's just a human thing that we all feel.
01:34:59
Speaker
Yeah.
01:35:00
Speaker
And
01:35:01
Speaker
And then, and then there's, there's a, it looks different.
01:35:05
Speaker
Yeah.
01:35:05
Speaker
There's, there's different flavors of it.
01:35:07
Speaker
It's the hero's journey is unique in that it, it, it's, it's solid across all the types.
01:35:17
Speaker
Every type has to move through these challenging things to, to find themselves and, and, and be more complete.
01:35:28
Speaker
And so, and, and,
01:35:30
Speaker
What's amazing is the universe, it feels to me, shows up and says, here is a new door where there wasn't one before, because now I see that you're looking for this growth and opportunity.
01:35:46
Speaker
So...
Growth, Impact, and Personal Connections
01:35:47
Speaker
So like, so the shaman shows up when the hero is ready.
01:35:51
Speaker
Yeah.
01:35:52
Speaker
Yeah.
01:35:53
Speaker
So ultimately this thing has to go beyond Scott and you have a lot of friends in the group who are excited for you to make this something scalable, repeatable, something where you're not just getting paid by the hour for your time.
01:36:06
Speaker
Yeah.
01:36:06
Speaker
Now, I know that it's not about the money, as we've discussed, but tell me about the long-term vision.
01:36:14
Speaker
Because it's like the starfish on the beach.
01:36:17
Speaker
You, right now, are pretty happy with picking a starfish up one at a time and throwing it into the water and making a difference for individuals.
01:36:26
Speaker
Do you have a desire to move beyond that into something that could help more people?
01:36:34
Speaker
If I'm honest...
01:36:36
Speaker
Maybe not.
01:36:37
Speaker
No.
01:36:37
Speaker
You like it being one on one.
01:36:38
Speaker
Yeah.
01:36:39
Speaker
I want to pick up the starfish.
01:36:42
Speaker
I like I like working with one person.
01:36:45
Speaker
I love devoting all my attention to one person at a time.
01:36:49
Speaker
And then I understand simply based upon my own experience that an individual can make a difference.
01:36:56
Speaker
Right.
01:36:56
Speaker
So I understand that when I put all of my effort into a person, that that experience can ripple into the lives of their loved ones, of their business partners.
01:37:07
Speaker
That understanding on its own will will move out into the greater community.
01:37:13
Speaker
And I'm not going to sort of curtail the possibility for growth.
01:37:18
Speaker
But if I'm perfectly honest, I I'm very happy to keep this personal.
01:37:26
Speaker
Yeah, because I love it.
01:37:28
Speaker
So, yeah, a friend of ours told me about an analogy.
01:37:34
Speaker
He made the analogy of a pirate ship.
01:37:38
Speaker
And it was such a cool analogy to me because I've often thought, like, what's my ideal size of organization?
01:37:45
Speaker
And it's like a pirate ship.
01:37:47
Speaker
It's like I want to know everybody, but I want there to be enough capacity beyond myself to get a lot of things done.
01:37:57
Speaker
And he said, you know, the way that people expand beyond their individual pirate ship is that they make the captains of the new ships, they make them their crew.
01:38:10
Speaker
So like, instead of having... Because I know that you love to teach this stuff, as well as finding the way that it caches out.
01:38:19
Speaker
And so I wonder if the right way to...
01:38:24
Speaker
scale this maybe is to find people that you teach this method to and then you get to watch as they make an impact in all these other people's lives.
01:38:35
Speaker
That's, that's what I, that's what I want.
01:38:38
Speaker
And I, and I do love, I love teaching.
01:38:40
Speaker
And, and absolutely, that, that aligns perfectly with, with the things that I'd like to accomplish is seeing people surpass me, look at things differently, make things better, right?
01:38:52
Speaker
I'm, I'm not, I'm not capable of seeing everything.
01:38:57
Speaker
And the more people that understand this very particular way of looking at the world, the more connected and complete the picture can be.
01:39:10
Speaker
And so, yeah, I feel that a lot.
01:39:13
Speaker
I mean, just for example, because you're more of an ideas guy, if you were to find someone who was more of a, like in my case where I'm an options guy, I'm about giving people options.
01:39:26
Speaker
My approach to this kind of consulting would be radically different from yours, even though we're using the same tool set.
01:39:34
Speaker
And so I'm not auditioning right now, but I'm saying like a guy like me.
01:39:37
Speaker
Yeah.
01:39:40
Speaker
A guy like me could potentially take it in a very different direction and help a different set of people.
01:39:47
Speaker
And so maybe then you could even do it like – because I know that you've talked about how there are certain types who are more difficult for you to reach.
01:39:55
Speaker
It could even be like I'm going to refer you to this guy who's going to be able to just –
01:40:00
Speaker
nail what you need solved because of his temperament and maybe provide a better service than you individually are able to do.
01:40:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
01:40:10
Speaker
And I think about that.
01:40:12
Speaker
There doesn't exist right now an INTJ that I know that I can hand off to the ENTPs or the ESFJs, the people that match up perfectly.
01:40:22
Speaker
Because admittedly, this system is big and it's complicated.
01:40:28
Speaker
Yeah.
01:40:28
Speaker
And it takes a lot of effort to figure it out.
01:40:33
Speaker
But regardless, yeah, teaching people and filling blind spots.
01:40:39
Speaker
Like, absolutely, I align with that.
01:40:43
Speaker
Yeah.
01:40:44
Speaker
And so maybe the task for your business at this stage is to make those personal impacts, those one-on-one impacts,
01:40:55
Speaker
at enough of a level and enough of a scale and across a broad enough set of domains that you have the social proof to then say, I have this system that if you can learn it, you can come help people that I can't help.
01:41:11
Speaker
And then it's like, you're not having to sell
01:41:15
Speaker
Because right now, it's very much about your personal credibility.
01:41:20
Speaker
People hear you speak and they go, I like the cut of his jib.
01:41:23
Speaker
I want to hear more about his brain.
01:41:25
Speaker
That may be hard for you to hear.
01:41:33
Speaker
I don't like being a prophet.
01:41:35
Speaker
I want to curate the ideas.
01:41:36
Speaker
Yeah, you would much prefer to frame this as like, I have this cool system.
01:41:42
Speaker
Yeah.
01:41:43
Speaker
But I think that right now you are the guy.
01:41:47
Speaker
Nobody else is doing this, even though lots and lots of people know about Jung.
01:41:52
Speaker
Right.
01:41:52
Speaker
And, and so even if it's just because like you had the autism to just sit and, and think about this for like a decade, you know, even if that's the source of your like credibility here, it is about something special that you did that nobody else did not to say they couldn't, but they didn't.
01:42:14
Speaker
And so I guess the challenge at this point becomes, uh,
01:42:21
Speaker
building another person into somebody that has that kind of credibility with the system.
01:42:30
Speaker
Yeah.
01:42:31
Speaker
And yeah.
Personal Growth and Connection Invitation
01:42:33
Speaker
And, and so I have to do my own shadow work.
01:42:36
Speaker
I have to be more socially friendly.
01:42:40
Speaker
I have to work in my inferior slot.
01:42:41
Speaker
I have to be open and excited.
01:42:44
Speaker
And the person that pats you on the back and tells you that you're loved, like, I can do that.
01:42:49
Speaker
But it takes... It's not...
01:42:55
Speaker
I don't want to say it's not easy, right?
01:42:56
Speaker
Like it comes naturally, just not to the degree that it does for others.
01:43:02
Speaker
And I'm noticing as I do that, my life is better.
01:43:07
Speaker
So to people out there, working on your shadow is fulfilling your
01:43:11
Speaker
and it's helpful, even though it's painful and hard, meaning will arise.
01:43:18
Speaker
Like you'll be like, oh, okay, this is a space that walking in helps.
01:43:24
Speaker
Yeah.
01:43:25
Speaker
Well, so I love this business and it's been tremendously fulfilling to me personally to watch as you have found clients within the group and bounced ideas off with the guys.
01:43:37
Speaker
and leverage this network and are building this freedom for yourself.
01:43:42
Speaker
That's the dream for me.
01:43:44
Speaker
And so I was really excited to share your story with the guys.
01:43:49
Speaker
So if you want to learn more about what Scott's doing, I'm going to post a Calendly link in the description for this podcast.
01:43:54
Speaker
You can set up a free consultation with him to figure out your type.
01:43:57
Speaker
figure out potentially how Scott can help you.
01:43:59
Speaker
If you want to learn more about what Exit is all about and the way that we're building businesses, teaching people about raising chickens or learning a trade or learning how to code, and also just building a really supportive community, you can check us out at exitgroup.us or follow us at Twitter at exit underscore org.
01:44:16
Speaker
Thanks so much, Scott.
01:44:17
Speaker
It's great talking to you.
01:44:18
Speaker
Yeah, you too.
01:44:19
Speaker
Thanks for having me.