Transcript
Speaker: Hey everybody, welcome to the Exit Podcast.
Speaker: This is Dr. Bennett, joined here once again by Scott Fishbook.
Speaker: Scott and I recorded a podcast on Jungian typology several months ago that got such a strong response from listeners that Scott decided to sign up for Exit and start a consulting business.
Speaker: So I wanted to have him back on the show for a quick check-in.
Speaker: Welcome to the show, Scott.
Speaker: Hey, thanks for having me.
Speaker: So I don't want to retread all the ground we covered last time, but we should introduce what you do for folks who haven't listened yet.
Speaker: Some of these concepts are going to be familiar to anyone who's heard of the four-letter Myers-Briggs inventory that they had to do maybe in school or in a corporate setting, or you go on a website and you get your sort of horoscope.
Speaker: Give us a taste of the domain that you consult in.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: So I work with a body of tools, people that have done this for most of their life, primarily psychoanalysts, some doctors and a few therapists, and they've written material.
Speaker: And then what I'll do is I will sit with someone and we will talk and we will we'll just have a conversation.
Speaker: And then in the background, my wheels are spinning and I'm figuring out essentially which spot fits best.
Speaker: And then there's a go between, right?
Speaker: Because I haven't lived the life of my client, so I need to listen to them completely and sort of integrate it.
Speaker: And so I go through the typing process.
Speaker: We arrive at a specific type, which happens to correlate to
Speaker: one of the 16 types that people are familiar with with myers-briggs now beyond that and this is where the cool stuff happens now now that we've zeroed in we can make some inferences that are highly tailored and extremely accurate and this is where people will think it's magic and i and i can promise it's not magic it's it's uh
Speaker: years of attention and work.
Speaker: And it gets exciting, right?
Speaker: Because people will feel as if, and this isn't always, you know, but most of the time, I'll hit on some things that they know are weaknesses that they are also interested in developing and strengthening.
Speaker: And so once we dial in the personality type, I walk them through what are called cognitive functions, right?
Speaker: And we get into something called a functional stack.
Speaker: What that means is these are the lenses by which you view reality, right?
Speaker: In the previous podcast, we went over what these different lenses are.
Speaker: Yeah, tell us a bit about it, though.
Speaker: So, for instance, you have introverted thinking, which is, does this make sense to me?
Speaker: You aren't necessarily as concerned with the thoughts and ideas of others, right?
Speaker: So you yourself have a strong identity of a corpus of logical understanding.
Speaker: So essentially, if you're a
Speaker: you're in a room and someone comes to you and they tell you a thing, a TI user will say true or false, right?
Speaker: And it will be their subjective personal conclusion.
Speaker: And then compare that to extroverted thinking, that's tribe-based logic, right?
Speaker: So
Speaker: If you come to a boardroom, you listen to everybody make their case, and then you say to yourself, that idea right there, that's the one that I like, right?
Speaker: And so that's extroverted thinking.
Speaker: And then we move all the way down through the introverted and extroverted feeling, introverted and extroverted sensing, and introverted and extroverted intuiting.
Speaker: And they all have their different ways of coming off to the world, and they have their different flavors.
Speaker: So your purpose in this first meeting is to watch the way someone talks about their problem, watch the way they tell a story and say, are you an abstract thinker?
Speaker: Are you a concrete thinker?
Speaker: Are you sourcing moral judgments from the tribe?
Speaker: Or are you sourcing factual judgments from the tribe?
Speaker: Or what's internal?
Speaker: What's personal?
Speaker: And so it's not so much that you are...
Speaker: trying to fit them into like an arbitrary category, like what Disney princess are you type of quiz thing.
Speaker: It's more like you have this, these four sets of binary indicators and based on where they fit in each of those four categories, you establish kind of a cognitive profile that allows you to tell like, these are the things this person's going to be really good at.
Speaker: These are the things they're going to be really bad at.
Speaker: And not just that, but like, these are the things that,
Speaker: that they're bad at, that they know they're bad at.
Speaker: And these are the things that are like a total mystery to them.
Speaker: And so, and that can be where you find magic, right?
Speaker: Like they didn't even know what they didn't know.
Speaker: So how does your approach, like a lot of people are familiar with Myers-Briggs.
Speaker: A lot of people talk about it from like a hobbyist perspective.
Speaker: How does your approach on these existing materials differ from what someone could get from,
Speaker: 16personalities.com or like the test they had to take at work or school?
Speaker: A hundred percent.
Speaker: It would, it would really only be my like personal experience.
Speaker: So, so it's not just words on a page for me.
Speaker: So I know what INTPs look like when they're, when they're in their comfort zone.
Speaker: I know what ENFJs look like when they're trying to boss people into like a reciprocal relationship.
Speaker: Like I know,
Speaker: all of these ways beyond looking at the book because I get to meet these people, right?
Speaker: I get to see what it is beyond like a trite explanation on a page.
Speaker: Not that it's trite.
Speaker: Some of the explanations are fantastic and the books are rich with detail and utility.
Speaker: But yeah,
Speaker: in the end you can read about what it's like for a gregarious um esfp to take you on an adventure and then there's the actual experience of going on that adventure and and so there's the map and there's the terrain and i suppose the difference is i've walked the terrain and and so like while someone could
Speaker: theoretically read those books and get to some of the same insights that you have, they're not going to be able to just produce them instantaneously and intuitively the way that you can because of this body of experience.
Speaker: And so it's sort of they're leveraging the time that you've put in ahead of time.
Speaker: And also, I got to think like, because these are blind spots,
Speaker: You may read about an ENFP.
Speaker: So I'm an ENFP.
Speaker: An ENFP has a hard time with introverted thinking.
Speaker: They mostly outsource logic to the tribe.
Speaker: And like, well, why is that a problem?
Speaker: Well, it means that you sometimes just sort of inhale stupid ideas and don't really think about them very carefully.
Speaker: And to just read about like, oh, I shouldn't do that is one thing.
Speaker: But to have someone actually walk through your situation and be like, look,
Speaker: you know, here is where you are doing that.
Speaker: And here is how it got you in trouble.
Speaker: I mean, I had that moment just recording of our last episode of the podcast with you.
Speaker: I had this, I didn't have like the answer already figured out.
Speaker: I asked you like, well, how does somebody mess that up?
Speaker: How can that go wrong?
Speaker: And you were like, well, if you absorb a bunch of silly ideas on Twitter and you just play with them kind of naively and foolishly and talk about them at length, maybe you get fired from your job.
Speaker: And I was like, oh, oh yeah, that is a problem.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, and there's also like, it's more than just the idea.
Speaker: I think in a lot of cases, you need a Sherpa to kind of walk you through the pain of it.
Speaker: So like, you and I were talking the other day about how a lot of people, when they go to self-help or they go to coaching, they
Speaker: or consulting, what they want from that experience is like, give me the magic idea that will enter my mind and sort of reformat my hard drive and take away all my problems.
Speaker: And that is not
Speaker: what you're trying to do here, it's much more about like walking somebody through their blind spots.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's absolutely right.
Speaker: So, so I think what happens a lot of times, um, and, and I experienced it personally.
Speaker: So, so I include myself in this category.
Speaker: is we go to someone knowing that there's this pain point that we struggle with that's so difficult.
Speaker: And we're just hoping that if like we hear the right words and the right things are said, suddenly we'll shift things around in our mind.
Speaker: And that challenge or issue will cease to be an issue.
Speaker: We'll suddenly have all the skills necessary to confront someone, even though we're an FE user and we're obsessed with harmony and making sure that everyone feels good, that the vibe is great.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so suddenly I'm going to listen to these words and I'm going to be able to handle conflict immediately.
Speaker: And or or if it's like ESTP talking about navigating his personal feelings, challenging place.
Speaker: And suddenly I'll talk to I'll talk to Scott and the my difficulty in navigating my emotional personal emotional experience.
Speaker: So we're talking about introverted feeling.
Speaker: Suddenly that will be fixed and I won't have to worry about it ever again.
Speaker: And that's just not how any of it works, unfortunately.
Speaker: And I say unfortunately, because I understand that's sort of the dream or hope that a lot of people will have walking into a session.
Speaker: And the answer is,
Speaker: practical application of simple, simple routines.
Speaker: Do do the work like I'm great at work, but but I struggle with my relationships.
Speaker: My relationships are beautiful, but I struggle with with following a schedule.
Speaker: And so there's no way around the fact that
Speaker: the hard part of your life is hard to navigate.
Speaker: If that, if that makes sense.
Speaker: But maybe, and, and, you know, we've talked a little bit about Jung actually, and, and, and the, the, the shadow, the, the dark side of your personality, which is not, it's not dark in the sense that like it's your evil twin or something, or that you need to become a villain.
Speaker: You know, Jordan Peterson talks a lot about the, the, the beast that you need to awaken.
Speaker: And I think, and I think,
Speaker: For some people, like that FE user who needs to learn how to pick a fight, it can be like that.
Speaker: But the shadow is actually just the part of you that is...
Speaker: dark and dormant.
Speaker: It's, it's mysterious to you.
Speaker: It's hard to access.
Speaker: It can be frightening to access, but you know, if, if, uh, if you're that ESTP accessing your shadow is not like you go be a jerk.
Speaker: Cause those guys are usually pretty comfortable being jerks when they have to be for, for right.
Speaker: For them accessing the shadow may be about like, I need to tell my kid explicitly that I love them.
Speaker: And like that's that's shadow work.
Speaker: And so having someone to tell you in explicit terms
Speaker: Like, you know, that's going to be hard, but like, here's exactly why it's going to be hard.
Speaker: And here are some, here are some tools you can leverage to access your strengths in that situation and integrate this challenging experience into your personality.
Speaker: And you're still going to be the guy for whom that is hard, but these are the tools to get there.
Speaker: And it's, and it's in my experience, as I've learned from
Speaker: more about this system, and I've looked back at the times in my life where I had the most growth, it was where I was forced through hardship to pull myself into that dark space and access those cognitive functions that are mysterious and challenging for me.
Speaker: And you become a more complete person.
Speaker: And so someone may benefit a lot from like the, I don't want to say therapist angle to this, like the emotional, like, you know, how do I manage my relationship with my girlfriend or whatever, but someone's going to probably pay you on the basis of, I want to improve my sales.
Speaker: I want to improve my relationship with a partner.
Speaker: I want to improve my relationship with a client.
Speaker: I'm having this professional difficulty because they want to see ROI on the money that they're giving you.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So tell me a little bit about,
Speaker: how these concepts cash out for your clients in terms of professional insight.
Speaker: And then also, you know, maybe this is icing for a lot of them, but like the personal piece as well.
Speaker: Yeah, and in all honesty, there's businesses like personal adjacent, like as much as we think we're these cubicle people and we separate the office from our family and so forth, we develop personal relationships when we're at work.
Speaker: It affects us personally.
Speaker: So, so, so a specific example is I worked in, I've worked in an office setting for, you know, a good point, a good amount of my professional career.
Speaker: In one of them, I worked with a friend and that friend was having a lot of trouble communicating and motivating staff.
Speaker: to follow through on some of his expectations.
Speaker: And really, so he had a strong personality.
Speaker: He wanted people to follow the rules so that the business could make more money, right?
Speaker: Great, great, great motives if you want to keep people employed and pay the bills.
Speaker: So I came at it from a type perspective and I went through the process of typing each of the people in his office, figuring out a good way to communicate with each one.
Speaker: And in the end, in order to integrate perfectly with everyone in your office, you'd probably have to make an enormous amount of change.
Speaker: But there are little shifts that you can make within yourself that aren't massively difficult to do.
Speaker: Like for one, one was an ESTJ and that was one of his employees.
Speaker: And ESTJs are direct initiated control types.
Speaker: And so they're really going to thrive in a reliable, consistent environment.
Speaker: And he was a movement type.
Speaker: And so he likes, he's safe in chaos and living on the edge of how busy things are and things where
Speaker: busy and intense all the time.
Speaker: And so for this ESTJ, that's an enormous amount of stress.
Speaker: And so what I suggested to him was to create a designated schedule and to adhere to it and to have specific rules and expectations that everyone was to follow.
Speaker: And once this was applied, the ESTJ was much happier, much more acquiescent and essentially the wheels of the business
Speaker: were able to move much more fluidly with that one employee.
Speaker: And then we just went down the list, right?
Speaker: We had a ESTP, we had a unit, and we went with each person and we figured out the things.
Speaker: And we all we had to do is modify his behavior slightly.
Speaker: And in the end, the office became highly functional during COVID, where everyone else was taking a dive.
Speaker: His was at 90% what it was outside of COVID.
Speaker: And so we were working in the healthcare industry.
Speaker: So those metrics are impressive.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, and you can identify as part of what you do.
Speaker: There are definitely, I think, I think all types can interact profitably.
Speaker: I think all types have things to learn from one another, but there are definitely types that get along more naturally.
Speaker: And it's in part because they produce what the other consumes.
Speaker: So like, yeah,
Speaker: A certain type of person is an idea generator and a certain type of person is an idea consumer.
Speaker: You are a TI.
Speaker: So you've got that introverted thinking and you are producing ideas.
Speaker: And I am an extroverted thinker.
Speaker: So like I am constantly reaching out.
Speaker: That's why I love doing the podcast.
Speaker: Why I love having these one-on-one calls with the guys.
Speaker: Cause I'm constantly like fascinated by, Oh really?
Speaker: That's what you think?
Speaker: That's what your expertise is.
Speaker: And my instinct to solve a problem is,
Speaker: is almost never like, let me do the math.
Speaker: My instinct is almost always like, let me find the guy.
Speaker: Let me just find the guy and the guy will tell me.
Speaker: And like, you're the guy for this piece, for this set of expertise.
Speaker: So I referred you to someone I knew about who was trying to start a business with their spouse.
Speaker: And I was, I could understand in like a practical sense why things weren't getting off the ground.
Speaker: But I was continually telling them, here's how I think you fix that.
Speaker: And just nothing ever progressed.
Speaker: They're actually trying to launch a business that has a lot of things in common with what I'm trying to do.
Speaker: So I was able to say, you have X hundred thousand followers on Facebook.
Speaker: I know that if you introduce this monetization strategy, you will get X percent of that
Speaker: 100,000 followers to pay you.
Speaker: And like, it was very frustrating to me because I was like, I know this will work.
Speaker: Why aren't you taking my, why aren't you taking my very good advice?
Speaker: And you helped me talk through like, these are, these are two cognitive types who, A, struggle to start things, period.
Speaker: Like it's just, it's just not in their, in their nature to be the startup person.
Speaker: They need someone else to kickstart it and, and, and take charge of that step.
Speaker: You were able to see that very clearly and see like, here's how you have to communicate it to them.
Speaker: I think one of them, the answer ended up being like, you can't just tell this person to do X. You need to tell them to find the person who can do X. Like they basically needed a different partner involved and that, you know,
Speaker: That totally changed the conversation and cracked things wide open.
Speaker: So that's another cash out.
Speaker: But okay, so do your clients tend to span the whole range of temperaments?
Speaker: Like, is there a type of person that is more likely to
Speaker: recognize this as a source of value?
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: So this, this, these, all these concepts are very abstract.
Speaker: So it's less, it's, it's rarer that the guardian and artisan types come to me.
Speaker: simply because the information that I'm giving them comes in a form that is challenging for them to digest.
Speaker: That doesn't mean that it's not useful.
Speaker: It just means this isn't their space.
Speaker: I've had family friends who are incredibly interested.
Speaker: And then if I go into the abstract realm, talking to highly concrete people,
Speaker: You can tell like immediately their eyes glaze over.
Speaker: And, and so, and, and this was early on in the process before I really understood how people engage with, with ideas on all the different levels of types.
Speaker: So before, when, when I started trying to use things practically, this is when I started observing all of these patterns.
Speaker: And what I've discovered is that, yeah, with the guardians and artisans, you just have to keep it very concrete.
Speaker: You don't, which for me as an abstract type, it can feel slow, but that's a lot of growth for me.
Speaker: I get to explore the concrete space
Speaker: which gives my mind stability.
Speaker: It gives me reliability and consistency.
Speaker: So I don't really look at working with challenging clients as a negative, simply as something that, like if I can learn to accommodate all these different styles of communication, it just makes me better at serving the needs of the people that I care about.
Speaker: So it totally, I,
Speaker: I totally agree.
Speaker: And it transforms your own way of working.
Speaker: Because if I am just in this brass tacks conversation, you have to accommodate not only the person you're talking to, you also have to accommodate yourself.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like you cannot live in a world that you're not comfortable with all the time.
Speaker: And so if I'm just having this brass tacks conversation with this very concrete person,
Speaker: I mean, that was what I did in my cubicle job.
Speaker: It was constant.
Speaker: It was nothing but these very concrete, very dry, very practical conversations.
Speaker: And I was bored to tears and I was in terrible psychological pain all the time.
Speaker: And so, but having these conversations and in the back of my mind, I'm solving this abstract puzzle.
Speaker: The puzzle that I'm solving is like, how is this going from like a typological perspective?
Speaker: what cognitive clues can I glean from this interaction, what's happening?
Speaker: It sort of transmogrifies the mundane conversation into this abstract place where I get to play.
Speaker: And so it works both ways.
Speaker: It not only helps you to accommodate
Speaker: you know, the client, but it also helps you to make the experience more interesting for yourself.
Speaker: And that's got to be a huge appeal to, to abstract types.
Speaker: And I, you know, you mentioned guardians and artisans, just a quick overview.
Speaker: The, when we talked about this in the last podcast, but just in case people haven't heard.
Speaker: So the, the guardian type is someone who is more concrete than
Speaker: and more socially conformist.
Speaker: They like rules, they like structure, they like to make sure everybody else is following the rules.
Speaker: And then an artisan type is...
Speaker: concrete, but they're more nonconformist.
Speaker: These are the artists and the, especially visual artists and the singers and performers and skateboarders.
Speaker: These are the types that tend to have challenges with substance abuse because they're very like in the now type people.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it makes, it makes the now more exciting.
Speaker: Like when, when they're eating good food and having a good time and yeah.
Speaker: Although I, I find that,
Speaker: It's specific types that navigate that space with challenges.
Speaker: But for the reasons that you suggested that they're very in the moment, they're not thinking tremendously about future consequences, right?
Speaker: Which, yeah.
Speaker: And so that affects their lifestyle.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: And then you've got, on the other hand, you've got the two abstract types, which are rationalists who are abstract, but they're concerned with questions of fact.
Speaker: And then you've got the idealists who are abstract, but they live in more of the realm of the moral, what's right and wrong, what do I think is good and bad, versus the factual questions.
Speaker: So we've talked about how the guardians and the artisans maybe don't necessarily intuitively, well, maybe it's not they don't see the value, but they have a harder time
Speaker: getting through the information that explains why this is credible.
Speaker: Like, like if you can just tell them, hey, go, go, you know, bathe in the Jordan and you'll be healed.
Speaker: And then they go do it and they're healed.
Speaker: Then they don't have to care about like your process, which would be boring to them to hear about.
Speaker: But a lot of these types, because they value institutions and consensus and like the
Speaker: well, Myers-Briggs is in this sort of twilight realm of like, it's not exactly scientific.
Speaker: Like you can't look into a flask and check the bubbles to see if your MBTI is right.
Speaker: Like it's not a hard, hard science.
Speaker: But some of the brightest minds in psychoanalysis have worked in this field.
Speaker: And so like, it's not woo either.
Speaker: But so like a guardian type specifically, you would have to kind of do an end run around like questions of,
Speaker: How does this all work?
Speaker: And just go straight to like, here's the answer.
Speaker: Here's what you need to do.
Speaker: And watch what happens.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then obviously, even within the guardian type, you have specific personalities and their approach would be different, right?
Speaker: So for instance, and we talked about this a little bit on the previous podcast, an ESFJ and an ESTJ are both guardian types, but the way that they're going to navigate information is very different, right?
Speaker: Because one of them will be more focused on, does the group of people around me like these concepts and ideas?
Speaker: Is this exciting to them?
Speaker: Do they enjoy it?
Speaker: Do they love it?
Speaker: And if enough social proof is there, then the idea is good.
Speaker: And then beyond that, you have the ESTJ and that's like, that's using extroverted thinking.
Speaker: So it's, what is the group around me think about these concepts?
Speaker: Do people I respect think that this is stupid?
Speaker: Yes, that's precisely.
Speaker: And so, but regardless, both the ESFJ and the ESTJ will be looking to the tribe to create the value judgments by which they judge information.
Speaker: So is this safe?
Speaker: Let me look outside to what has been done in the past.
Speaker: Okay, so that's the guardian and artisan types.
Speaker: They're going to have a hard time because it's more abstract than they like.
Speaker: So once you've got them in the tent, you're going to focus on the direct payoff of what they need to do.
Speaker: But how would you differ between a guardian and an artisan?
Speaker: They're both concrete types.
Speaker: How would your approach differ between them?
Speaker: It does depend by type.
Speaker: Like for instance, an ISFJ, you give them a recipe because they want to process it on their own, their TI child.
Speaker: So their third function is introverted thinking.
Speaker: So they care about what they think about it.
Speaker: And so you want to give them the space to come to their own conclusions, even if it takes a little longer.
Speaker: That's just the door to their personal understanding.
Speaker: And so knocking up against that's not going to help
Speaker: anyone.
Speaker: And so, yeah.
Speaker: So in my experience with ISFJs, for instance, you, you let them tell you what they think and you give them suggestions.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then you, you, you ask them questions.
Speaker: Whereas an ESTJ, you can just tell them what I think and they absorb it because they're a TE user.
Speaker: And so, but, but regardless, one common trend among guardians is you need to give them the recipe.
Speaker: If you don't give them the recipe, they will not be happy.
Speaker: You give them the bullet point list of things that they need to know.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And then they're going to learn it.
Speaker: They don't want to spend time wondering about how it could be, what it is.
Speaker: They want to know how to do it.
Speaker: And so you give that to them and that will make them very happy.
Speaker: The artist in type, you just tell them some stuff that they can do and that's it.
Speaker: Like you're not giving them a recipe.
Speaker: you're saying, here's an action item.
Speaker: Here's a thing you can do.
Speaker: And this is what I suggest that you do.
Speaker: And you don't give them a lot of them, right?
Speaker: Because you don't want to overwhelm them with options, which is what happened in the conversation that you were talking about.
Speaker: Too many options is too much.
Speaker: And so you figure out what is the most useful action item that I can provide you with.
Speaker: And then you create a very concrete execution focused suggestion.
Speaker: And then they can take that and use it.
Speaker: That's Guardian Artisan.
Speaker: What about rationalist and idealist?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And again, this will differ by type or at very least the approach I take will differ, right?
Speaker: Because I have my type.
Speaker: I'm an INTP.
Speaker: So there's a way that I come off to the world and I have to navigate that depending on the person that I'm working with.
Speaker: And some people are...
Speaker: just naturally more dialed in to meet me where I'm at.
Speaker: And sometimes I have to accommodate.
Speaker: And so, for instance, if I'm working with the ENTP, well, essentially an extroverted intuitive user.
Speaker: So I'll sit down with them,
Speaker: They want to figure it out for themselves.
Speaker: And so I just have to provide them with resources and then they can use them or not.
Speaker: I will suggest, I will tell them things that they need to change based on my understanding of their shadow functions.
Speaker: So for instance, if you're an ENTP, challenges will be distilling and identifying your personal ambition and trajectory forward.
Speaker: So at the ENTP, I'm going to help them talk about specific challenges
Speaker: crystallized future oriented items, right?
Speaker: Because we're abstract, we want to think ahead.
Speaker: And so I'll talk about like, okay, figure out what your aim is.
Speaker: Like, like, where does this lead you?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so again, much more abstract than for the guardians and artisans.
Speaker: However, simply because it's necessary, I will give action items that are useful.
Speaker: Although again, as we mentioned, it's not as imperative for the abstract types to be given specific things that they can look at, right?
Speaker: Because they do the thinking for themselves.
Speaker: And then let's see, so that's ENTP.
Speaker: So help them organize their personal vision, help them establish routines, which they don't want to make.
Speaker: because it limits their possibilities.
Speaker: And then those are the main things.
Speaker: With the INTPs, organizing social activities is important, like building that into your schedule just to create healthy opportunities for
Speaker: engaging.
Speaker: Well, and this is maybe a big difference within that rationalist sphere.
Speaker: You've got the ENTP and the INTP and an ENTP like me is going to be all about the starting.
Speaker: He's going to be all about like, let's go.
Speaker: He's going to be very high energy in the first stages of a project.
Speaker: and ready to launch.
Speaker: And the INTP is going to be maybe more like, I'm not sure how I feel about it.
Speaker: I'm not sure about, have I thought of all the angles, a little more analysis paralysis.
Speaker: And so your approach to those two types, even though they're rational, it's going to be pretty dramatically different.
Speaker: Yeah, it is.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: And the reason why INTPs will be in analysis paralysis is TI hero.
Speaker: So the easiest thing for them in the world to do is to analyze.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's effortless.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Whereas ENTP, the easiest thing in the world is to generate options, right?
Speaker: Like, I could do this, I could do this, right?
Speaker: And so they're similar, they're similar, but yeah, you can definitely sense that there's a big distinction in flavor.
Speaker: And also SI child, which is the third function in their functional stack, which we talked about at the very beginning of the podcast,
Speaker: Yeah, their third function is introverted sensing, which is, am I comfortable?
Speaker: Do I feel comfortable with this?
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: So the definition of someone that wants to be in their comfort zone.
Speaker: Yeah, and it's this very, because it's their child function instead of their hero or their parent function, it's this very naive desire for comfort.
Speaker: It's like immediate comfort now, like a child, versus someone who is an SI hero or an SI parent is going to be more like, let me take care of my comfort in the long run, so I'm going to establish routines that I enjoy.
Speaker: I'm going to set up my space the way I like it.
Speaker: I'm going to reflect myself
Speaker: across time.
Speaker: And I'm going to say what would make me the most comfortable and I'm going to work at it proactively.
Speaker: And SI child is more like Doritos sounds better than salad right now.
Speaker: I was just going to say that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Give me some donuts.
Speaker: Where are the donuts?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, uh, absolutely.
Speaker: Um, junk food enthusiast.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Although personally I like working out.
Speaker: So I, and that way I deviate,
Speaker: Although I love junk food, to be clear.
Speaker: I also love all the things we discussed.
Speaker: For some reason, working out, stuck.
Speaker: Well, and that's maybe one reason why this is not a hard science.
Speaker: Because looking at like, looking again, looking at someone's behavior does not necessarily tell you where they land.
Speaker: You know, I mean, I'm an ENFP and I'm not supposed to like working out, but I like working out.
Speaker: And, you know, I definitely don't like it the way that an ESTP or someone who's like, that's their jam.
Speaker: But again, it's like you can't look at behavior because everybody does everything.
Speaker: But when you get down to like cognitive styles, like how do I like to receive information?
Speaker: How do I process the information once I've got it?
Speaker: It's like dead to rights, ENFP.
Speaker: It's very, very clear.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then even from the workout, like I'll go to the gym and I'll see the types.
Speaker: I'm like, there's the ESTP, perfect form on squats, like just pushing it like crazy.
Speaker: There's the ENFP sitting on the leg press machine.
Speaker: Like, cause, and every now and then, and I find that they like to run a lot.
Speaker: So, so the cardio element, like just get in the zone is kind of what I've noticed.
Speaker: And, and I'm the same.
Speaker: So essentially you can actually sort of distinguish the types at the gym as well.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: And that's fun for me.
Speaker: And remember, for those of you, like, this is so ingrained in my psyche that I can't help but do it no matter where I am.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think, you know, I look at the way my kids, my two oldest boys were playing hockey in the basement.
Speaker: And one of them, who I think is an INFJ, but I'm not sure yet.
Speaker: And the other one is pretty much balls to the wall ESTP.
Speaker: The way that they handled the ball was so different.
Speaker: And my oldest boy, he was sort of hacking at the ball, whacking it, trying to like fling it.
Speaker: You know, was having a harder time like being effective.
Speaker: He was just more sort of having the experience.
Speaker: And then my younger son was like, he was almost trying to do like the eggshell exercise where he was trying to very gently guide and very carefully guide the ball right where he wanted it.
Speaker: And he enjoyed like the slap shot, like he would fling back and smack it.
Speaker: But he was very much in touch with like, what exactly is my body doing?
Speaker: What's the exact right way to do this?
Speaker: And so it was interesting to see how they, interesting to look at their differences through that lens.
Speaker: Yeah, and I think this is that's a great point of the cognitive axis of the ESTP, which is extroverted sensing hero introvert intuition, inferior.
Speaker: So they know what they want, right?
Speaker: They want that ball like but it's contained to the moment.
Speaker: Yeah, like,
Speaker: Like I want, like I know what I want and I want that ball to fly perfectly to that spot over there.
Speaker: Or I want this pushup to be tuned excellently so that it engages each part of the body that I want it to engage.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And just that corporeal mastery is really impressive.
Speaker: And yeah, you can see it from a very young age.
Speaker: Yeah, so that's rationalist.
Speaker: Okay, so what about rationalist versus idealist?
Speaker: And maybe it'll help to bring this down to earth to talk about specific cases.
Speaker: So I know that you've had an interaction with an ENTP.
Speaker: What are the way, or several, I think, ENTPs within the group.
Speaker: How does your approach to them specifically take into account their cognitive style?
Speaker: I, it's challenging because I have the same functional stack.
Speaker: So if I work with an ENTP, we're living in the same space.
Speaker: And so neither of us has access to the shadow functions that the other has.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I have to work,
Speaker: I have to personally put extra work into it.
Speaker: But the plus side is I know how they think.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So that's always the trade-off.
Speaker: We can actually be more comfortable working with people who are similar to us in some ways or reciprocal to us.
Speaker: But people who are not reciprocal to us at all, we may be able to help more if we can...
Speaker: if we can learn how to play the game they're playing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So one specific experience I have, and this is with any users in general, so you or some of my clients, is knowing that extroverted intuitives want to figure out what the other person wants, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So they want to leave the zone free for people to make the choices that they want.
Speaker: And then they want to support that.
Speaker: So one of the ENTPs I'm working with was planning a trip and wanted to make sure that... Well, actually, timeout.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Is it okay if I talk about these things?
Speaker: I didn't actually get any permission from... Obfuscate details.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: So, wanted to make sure that his wife was having an authentic experience.
Speaker: And then...
Speaker: Her type was ESFJ, so also want to fall in line with what other people want.
Speaker: So both of them want to do what the other person wants.
Speaker: Which can be very frustrating.
Speaker: Yes, absolutely.
Speaker: But it's easier for the ENTP, who is extrovert intuitive hero, to get into the NI space, which is what do I want?
Speaker: Whereas with an ESFJ, it's extrovert intuitive child.
Speaker: Introverted intuition is much harder to get tapped into.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so... So just for context, before you go any further, my wife is ESFJ and I'm ENFP, which means that we're in a very similar boat in terms of like where we want to go for dinner.
Speaker: I want to give her a good experience.
Speaker: I want to show her a good time.
Speaker: She wants to do what I want to do.
Speaker: And so we kind of go back and forth.
Speaker: But it is the case...
Speaker: that it is easier for me to access what I want.
Speaker: And so like, in a lot of cases, I, I end up being like the tiebreaker, like, like, and not, not the tiebreaker because like we both have a, an opinion.
Speaker: It's, it's more because we both don't.
Speaker: And so I'll be like, whatever the blue dress, wear the blue dress, I guess, you know?
Speaker: And, and it's funny because it's,
Speaker: It's, you know, now that I'm thinking about it, it's always framed in terms of like, well, do you feel pretty?
Speaker: Like, is it comfortable?
Speaker: Are you comfortable?
Speaker: I'd like you to be.
Speaker: I'd like you to look good and feel like you look good.
Speaker: So whichever one does that for you, honey.
Speaker: And she's like, but I don't know what I want.
Speaker: I want you to tell me what's good.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, well, you just unlocked something for me.
Speaker: That's good.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's how it looks.
Speaker: And so all of the functions of the ESFJ and ENFP are sort of on display in that single conversation.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And we could unpack it and say, this is what extroverted feeling looks like.
Speaker: This is FI.
Speaker: Extroverted feeling, does everybody like my dress?
Speaker: Is it a good dress?
Speaker: Yeah, and not so much like... So...
Speaker: SE would be like, is my dress giving people a good experience?
Speaker: Like, is it attractive?
Speaker: Is it sexy?
Speaker: And FE would be more like, is my dress appropriate?
Speaker: Am I overdressed?
Speaker: Am I underdressed?
Speaker: Am I like, like, am I fitting into like the moral judgments?
Speaker: Yeah, am I meeting the social expectations of the environment that I'm in?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So yeah, it sort of requires the NE heroes, in this case, both you and the client that I was working with, to hop into their shadow function.
Speaker: And figure out what do I want, even if I don't feel that strongly, because it's down in the shadow functions.
Speaker: But it's accessible.
Speaker: And I'm going to pull it out and I'm going to hand it to this situation because it'll solve the problem that we're running into right now, which is where will we go to eat?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And then, yeah, you could...
Speaker: And it's important.
Speaker: Those are real issues.
Speaker: Those are challenges.
Speaker: Admittedly, that's sort of a daily kind of occurrence, but those things happen in business.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What if they were business partners and they were trying to pick a logo or settle on some branding?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which one?
Speaker: Oh, what do you want?
Speaker: What do you want?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And the war ensues.
Speaker: Yeah, you can get unironically really frustrated with your partner on that basis, even though it's the fact that the stakes are so small that makes it a fight.
Speaker: Because neither of you care.
Speaker: Just pick.
Speaker: Or at least... Yeah, just pick.
Speaker: Yeah, even if you don't know why you care, you probably do on some level, but neither of you are able to access that.
Speaker: And so you just, you just are at this impasse.
Speaker: So like, yeah, that's totally, I mean, it's, it's, it's just as relevant to business decisions as it is to, you know, a spouse.
Speaker: And you, you've had, you've had experiences where partners were not communicating well and, you
Speaker: And it's funny because the way you tell the story, it's almost like they had to figure out their partner's love language almost.
Speaker: Their business partner.
Speaker: And they're both guys and they're both friends.
Speaker: But they had to learn how does this person feel appreciated and validated?
Speaker: And what am I looking for from this interaction that I'm not getting?
Speaker: And so it can be really powerful.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Sometimes people will find out that...
Speaker: that the business partner they have aligns with them perfectly.
Speaker: And they're like, I knew it all along.
Speaker: We're the golden pair.
Speaker: Of course, of course it works so great.
Speaker: And then there's challenges and issues with the golden pair.
Speaker: And those are people that are perfectly reciprocal.
Speaker: I'll spare you guys the lecture.
Speaker: Well, that's fine, but I think it is good to explore it in at least one example case.
Speaker: So my type is ENFP, which means I like to give people options.
Speaker: I like to do things that I think are right.
Speaker: I like to outsource my logic.
Speaker: So like I'm very much, I need to go find the expert.
Speaker: I need to go put this in front of a panel and see what the panel has to say about it, which is totally what I do in exit.
Speaker: But my golden pair, the person that I get along the best,
Speaker: with.
Speaker: And, you know, I told you originally that I don't think that I know any, but then I looked back and I was like, Oh, like pretty much all my best friends.
Speaker: I haven't, I haven't gone through it, but I'm pretty sure they were all INFJs or close, which what the INFJ does is produce what I put out and put out what I consume.
Speaker: So like, um, you know, I'm, I'm an extrovert intuition guy, meaning I want to know what you want and I want to help you get there.
Speaker: And their introvert intuition, which is, I know what I want.
Speaker: I want someone to give me some options.
Speaker: And they are extroverted feeling, which is what does the group think about good and bad?
Speaker: What do you think about good and bad?
Speaker: And I'm introverted feeling, which is here's what I think about good and bad.
Speaker: So like we are supplying each other with those inputs.
Speaker: And those are both
Speaker: idealist types.
Speaker: Like neither of us should be the chief technical officer of a tech startup.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: Like neither of us should be the office manager who makes sure that things get in on time and processes invoices and like shakes people down when they don't pay.
Speaker: Like we're going to, we're going to get along really well.
Speaker: But we together do not have all of the cognitive functions that a business needs to operate.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Interestingly enough, if you have done a lot of shadow work, ENFPs can actually handle the office manager position.
Speaker: And then the CTO, I've met an INFJ.
Speaker: Okay, so why?
Speaker: Why can an INFJ do that if they've developed it?
Speaker: Because they have TI child, which is precise and true.
Speaker: And then they have to be in an organization that values the skill sets that they're developing.
Speaker: So they continue to develop them.
Speaker: But you're absolutely right.
Speaker: Those aren't the go-to guys for...
Speaker: for CTO or like, amen, but you will see them in those positions.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that's the thing is, again, everybody does everything.
Speaker: It's more like, it's more a question of optimization because like I can, I can find the shakedown artists to get people to pay their bills to me.
Speaker: And I can find the engineer who's going to make sure that the machine runs smoothly.
Speaker: And my problem in that business arrangement is going to be questions of mutual understanding, questions of mutual goals, like are we aligned?
Speaker: Are we in harmony?
Speaker: And then if I'm with my golden pair guy, we're going to be like peas in a pod, getting along great, and things are going to fall through the cracks that neither of us caught.
Speaker: And it's just...
Speaker: It's just going to be, you know, you just pick your poison, right?
Speaker: What you're doing with this system is it sounds like you're helping people confront their finitude.
Speaker: The fact that, well, and maybe this is me and my ENFP lens, because we talked about a friend of ours who's also an ENFP who wanted to be everything.
Speaker: And you had to be like, no, you're not everything.
Speaker: You are these specific things.
Speaker: Like those things are good, but like you, you don't fill the space.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: Like there's, and part of that's like, you know, like you were saying with someone who is focused outward in a sensory way that, that implies that they can't be focused inward at the same time.
Speaker: And so if that's where you like to live, you're going to do less work, you know, in the other space.
Speaker: And so, yeah, so much of what this framework does is it tells you here's where you like to be and here's where your skill set lies.
Speaker: And therefore, here are the places that are more likely to be dark to you and frightening or anxiety inducing, insecure.
Speaker: And not only that, but also the finitude of others.
Speaker: So the things that you are really good at, it may seem to you that that's just the way that it is.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So this creates a sort of kumbaya mentality.
Speaker: This is like the, we are all threads in this tapestry being woven together and I'm red and you're blue.
Speaker: We all fit together in this grand way.
Speaker: that we can't necessarily see because we're just these threads, right?
Speaker: And it's this holistic understanding of how everyone comes together.
Speaker: And consciously, some people find each other annoying.
Speaker: Some people find each other frustrating, right?
Speaker: Because the way that they're coming off, so it's competition oriented, right?
Speaker: I'm the dreamer.
Speaker: Why are you dreaming?
Speaker: My dreams are the cool dreams.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: Like, I don't care about your dreams.
Speaker: And so there's naturally clashes and there's naturally misunderstandings.
Speaker: And they're supposed to be there.
Speaker: There's supposed to be this clash so that we can balance each other out.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like, so if you have the dreamy ENFP, this visionary out in the abstract realm.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And then you have ESTP that comes in and literally shakes them, literally shakes them and says, pay attention.
Speaker: Pay attention.
Speaker: Because when the ENFP, we're just using this example, pays attention to the moment and sees the things, their predictions are better because they're including reality in their predictions.
Speaker: It's going into their introverted sensing.
Speaker: They're remembering what happened in the past.
Speaker: so that they can better predict the future.
Speaker: And the only way they can do that is if they get out of this super exciting dream place and start looking at specific people and start looking, because they're always people focused.
Speaker: How can I get people together?
Speaker: How can I lead them to this place?
Speaker: They will be better at doing that as they're more grounded and zeroing in on specific people and looking at like,
Speaker: the ground beneath them.
Speaker: And the ESTP is going to want to do that all the time, right?
Speaker: Like, and bring them to that place.
Speaker: And then by contrast, the ENFP is going to be like, hey, ESTP, like, it's not just what you're seeing in front of you.
Speaker: It's also this broader vision.
Speaker: And let me show that to you.
Speaker: And the ESTP then can navigate his intense energy and interest
Speaker: towards this goal, right?
Speaker: That has then been placed in front of him by the ENFP who's looking more broadly.
Speaker: And so that's just one example of how types can help each other.
Speaker: because of their differing way of seeing things.
Speaker: Yeah, you definitely, if you can't bring your vision into the concrete, then you just sort of spin your wheels.
Speaker: But also, if you live in the concrete world and you never consider questions of meaning, questions of purpose, then you get into your 30s or 40s and you go, what was it all for?
Speaker: Like, what am I doing?
Speaker: What does this mean?
Speaker: And so, yeah, that's sort of the reciprocal relationship there.
Speaker: You have to remind the other that that world exists.
Speaker: And the same goes for the distinction between, you know, thinking and feeling.
Speaker: Like a guy like me is very much in the world of, is this morally right and wrong?
Speaker: How do I feel about this in my conscience?
Speaker: How do I feel about this spiritually?
Speaker: And a guy like you is very much like, is it factual?
Speaker: Is it efficient?
Speaker: Does it work?
Speaker: And so you and I have this constant dynamic where I am telling you, like, consider the spiritual angle to this and, like, trying to help you access that part of yourself that feels things, that has religious experiences.
Speaker: And you return with, like...
Speaker: okay, but this feels like bullshit, like this doesn't smell right.
Speaker: How does this fit the logical approach?
Speaker: And so there's a really fruitful reciprocity there.
Speaker: And part of my frustration in interactions like those is always kind of a sense of helplessness.
Speaker: Like, I don't know how to reach this person.
Speaker: I don't know how to connect with them.
Speaker: I don't know how to make them like me.
Speaker: Because I'm not... Because, you know, a person like that wants someone who's very responsible and responsive and paying attention.
Speaker: And that's just not...
Speaker: ever been who I am.
Speaker: And like, so my parents and like most of my teachers growing up, all of the authority figures were very much in that concrete realm.
Speaker: And I would be like, no, can't you think that it's cool, all these cool thoughts that I'm having and, you know, these visions and dreams.
Speaker: And they're like, well, but you can't, like, your shoes are untied and, you know, you didn't
Speaker: the dog didn't eat your homework kind of situation and having no visibility on like why that was the case.
Speaker: Like, why can't we get along?
Speaker: Why isn't this working?
Speaker: Made those interactions much more painful and challenging.
Speaker: But now that I'm like, I get the, like, I get why you're this way and I'm that way.
Speaker: And, and we can, I can, I can address you on your own terms and I can watch it work.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: Well, okay.
Speaker: And so let me give a little caveat here.
Speaker: Just because you can understand that like a dancer can dance fluidly and incredibly, and you can appreciate that.
Speaker: So the first step is understanding and appreciation.
Speaker: Second step is sort of like a form of embodiment, right?
Speaker: So in this case, the dancer can dance and you can be like, wow, what a great dance.
Speaker: right?
Speaker: But in the end, it benefits the person who's watching the dancer to learn how to dance, right?
Speaker: To actually enter the world of that person and live that experience, right?
Speaker: And so I would say there's different stages in growth.
Speaker: And one is to just be like, that world looks amazing.
Speaker: And for them, it is, right?
Speaker: Like, and some of them are less exciting than a dancer, right?
Speaker: Like, so the ISTJ
Speaker: accountant, judge type to go into that world and think if I were an ISTJ, I would love to create structure and rules and an order to, to these chaotic systems.
Speaker: And so, well, I want to move on to you personally.
Speaker: We've done a lot about like how you've helped your clients.
Speaker: You started this business later in your career and
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's a big transition from like your original undergrad track that you were on.
Speaker: So what do you think was in the way of getting this thing off the ground earlier?
Speaker: Not knowing what I want, right?
Speaker: So extrovert intuitives, they tend to figure out what they want by checking in with other people that know what they want.
Speaker: And then they think to themselves, I could do that.
Speaker: I could try that out.
Speaker: And so for me, that's what dental school was, is like, oh, my dad values the health field and I'm a smart guy and I'm really good at school.
Speaker: Dental school, done.
Speaker: I made that decision in a week and then that's what I did.
Speaker: And then it was halfway into dental school where I was like, this was a terrible choice for me.
Speaker: And I relied on people that didn't know me very well to make a decision for me because I was missing that piece, right?
Speaker: Which a lot of, and then the other thing, well, INTPs often go into programming or computers and they tend to have more success there, right?
Speaker: Because they have a natural affinity to the online environment.
Speaker: And I bring that up because prior to deciding dental school, I was going to be a computer engineer, but I never did that.
Speaker: But lots and lots of INTPs go the programming route.
Speaker: Definitely the case in our group.
Speaker: We have lots of INTP programmers for sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They like researching.
Speaker: They like being by themselves.
Speaker: They like things that make sense.
Speaker: It's a decent... And they have broad ranging ideas.
Speaker: So innovators for sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And in their case, and this is how I interact with them as far as cognitive styles is like...
Speaker: When an INTP tells me that he's a programmer, I'm not, I'm not, my go-to is not like, oh, you hate to code and you're trying to learn to do something totally different.
Speaker: That does happen.
Speaker: But more often it's like, I want to code for myself.
Speaker: I want to do something for me.
Speaker: And it's more about that they're like chafing under the social requirements of being a corporate employee rather than they just hate the nature of the work they're doing.
Speaker: Yeah, um, they yeah, chafing is right.
Speaker: I've never loved strict, like authoritarian anything.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, and I'm sure I speak for just about every well, again, I don't want to speak for the free thinking IATPs here.
Speaker: But but yeah, like,
Speaker: Like that's the only time I'll get in someone's face is if they're telling me to do something and I don't feel like it.
Speaker: I'm not really a rebel.
Speaker: I just don't like having to be stuck in someone else's rule book.
Speaker: Yeah, like if you could just personally be left alone, like that would be enough.
Speaker: Like, you know, and that's probably part of why a guy like me is in my position is because I'm like, I hate that this is happening to the group.
Speaker: I hate this is happening to us.
Speaker: And so like, I'm going to bring everybody together and we're going to fight.
Speaker: We're going to compile all our resources.
Speaker: I'm going to get all of your big smart brains aligned and we're going to
Speaker: resist.
Speaker: Whereas for an INTP, the natural, and you know, again, everybody can do everything, but the natural inclination is I hate this.
Speaker: Like I, I really hate being told what to do.
Speaker: And I would like to be left alone.
Speaker: Like they're not, they're not, they're not trying to go to war.
Speaker: They're, they're trying to be left alone.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: We're masters of apathy.
Speaker: Like we can ignore you, eat like without too much effort.
Speaker: So that's the virtue.
Speaker: Actually, we didn't go into it on the last podcast, but every type has a virtue in vice.
Speaker: And so the virtue of the INTP is attention.
Speaker: So just as zeroed in and attentive as someone can humanly be, or the opposite, which is apathy, you do not exist, right?
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: It's not I'm going to destroy you.
Speaker: It's that I you have none of my intents like like I'm not going to look at you.
Speaker: I'm going to go on my own and ignore everyone.
Speaker: Well, that's almost the same thing as attention.
Speaker: I'm going to point this laser beam at not you.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: Because my entire attention and my entire focus is on this thing that I think is cool.
Speaker: You don't exist anymore.
Speaker: And my experience, yeah, it's the same.
Speaker: I can get
Speaker: super zeroed in and obsessed.
Speaker: Like, like 14 hours, just like I'm studying and learning and learning and learning and more, more, more, more information.
Speaker: And I will learn a thing completely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then if that thing ceases to be compelling, I'll still remember it.
Speaker: And then I'll find this other thing.
Speaker: And then I'll, I'll obsess about that for, for a while.
Speaker: And so it's this moving of this like intense attention, attention,
Speaker: Ray, essentially.
Speaker: And that's the learning process.
Speaker: So I think this is a good place to start talking about the hot seat.
Speaker: So at exit, we introduce the guys in the smaller group calls.
Speaker: We talk about challenges that they're up against, projects that they're working on.
Speaker: And then if someone is either in a bad situation, like they're being doxxed or they're about to be fired over a vax mandate or something, or if they're just having like a business challenge, we...
Speaker: get the whole group together.
Speaker: And it's usually like 30 or 40 guys on a call.
Speaker: And we dig into what they're up against and we get guidance.
Speaker: We marshal resources.
Speaker: We say, who could this guy talk to that would help him?
Speaker: Are there places that we can send his resume?
Speaker: So tell me about what that experience was like for you.
Speaker: You were in the hot seat last night.
Speaker: Tell us about that experience.
Speaker: It was tremendously positive.
Speaker: So I went in there and I'm a very authentic person.
Speaker: I don't mind talking about just about anything.
Speaker: And so I was able to walk into that ready to listen.
Speaker: And so I think coming into that hot seat experience
Speaker: with openness and interest is that's how you'll get the most out of it.
Speaker: I've made it a rule that I don't tell somebody that they need a hot seat.
Speaker: They come to me.
Speaker: And so far, there's a pretty steady supply.
Speaker: Every week or two weeks, we have somebody who runs into something and the guys, the guys love it.
Speaker: They love, you know, chewing through a problem as a group.
Speaker: They love the sense of support that they get to provide to somebody.
Speaker: It's
Speaker: It's a really cool experience for everybody, but continue.
Speaker: Yeah, so I won't delve into this because I don't want to detract from the explanation, but different types will offer different specific aspects of perspective.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: So I'll find that the extroverted feeling users will pick up on my emotional state and they'll say, hey, did you consider that you may be feeling this way, right?
Speaker: And the more pragmatic extroverted feeling users, like an ENTP, for instance, will ask hard-hitting questions that might make me uncomfortable.
Speaker: Whereas like an ENFJ, who's an extrovert feeler as well, is going to be more careful about not putting me in a challenging position.
Speaker: But I appreciated all of the people, right?
Speaker: Because the hard hitting questions forced me to analyze aspects of my experience that were holding me back, that were preventing me from making jump that would make my life better.
Speaker: What do you mean specifically?
Speaker: So as I was talking, someone in the group mentioned, hey, Scott, it seems like
Speaker: like just by the way that you're talking, that maybe something that's holding you back was, and these are the words, more or less, a catastrophic failure in the past.
Speaker: And I was like, accurate, this is true.
Speaker: And then I had a very emotional experience as a result, because that was a very difficult trying time in my life.
Speaker: And I know that that part of me
Speaker: keeps me from moving forward in some dimensions.
Speaker: So he asks these hard hitting questions.
Speaker: And then I'm forced to reflect on the fact that these things are holding me back.
Speaker: And that puts me in a really vulnerable state, which causes more people to respond and offer advice.
Speaker: So is this cascade of useful advice and helpful perspective.
Speaker: And so people offered their they said,
Speaker: Hey, like, have you thought about putting these ideas in a book?
Speaker: And then we got to talk about that.
Speaker: And we talked specifically about why you don't want to do that.
Speaker: And what about that is not cool to you?
Speaker: What about that is in the way?
Speaker: And we got to tease apart...
Speaker: Like some of this is like, there are good reasons.
Speaker: Like you, you know, you, you, you prefer the sort of extemporaneous flow of a conversation.
Speaker: Like it's good to play to your strengths, but also there was like, I'm insecure about having enough content to fill a book.
Speaker: And we were, we were able to be like, okay, well, but that objection is kind of bullshit.
Speaker: Like you, you clearly have enough content to fill a book.
Speaker: So it's not about that.
Speaker: It may like,
Speaker: what I, what I loved about that conversation was that we weren't, we weren't dismissing any objections.
Speaker: We were dealing with them.
Speaker: We were exploring like, to what extent are these obstacles, real obstacles?
Speaker: To what extent are they emotional obstacles?
Speaker: Not that, not that real and emotional or opposites certainly, but, um, a practical versus emotional.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And so, so yeah, that, that piece of it was really cool to me.
Speaker: So go on.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then, um, and so that was, that was really good.
Speaker: And then, um, I got help from, uh, the ENFJs and they're just like, Scott, you're awesome.
Speaker: And I'm like, uh, am I?
Speaker: And then they're like, yeah, I'm like, okay.
Speaker: And that's kind of the, yeah, that's kind of how that goes.
Speaker: I constantly want to break this down in terms of functions because that's, you know, that's my obsession.
Speaker: That's my passion.
Speaker: But I'm trying to keep this all very concrete.
Speaker: So, yeah, so I got advice about, hey, Scott, you have a passion.
Speaker: Follow it.
Speaker: That feeling you have, we like it.
Speaker: We like that you have this emotional aspect to your personality and we're happy to hear it.
Speaker: And so I got to sort of
Speaker: It was about an INTP expressing his feelings about his ideas and navigating that emotional space.
Speaker: And for me, just for all the listeners, that is a very difficult space for me to navigate.
Speaker: And so it was fantastic having all of these intelligent, insightful, pointed comments from a broad array of people from lots of backgrounds, right?
Speaker: Like lots of flashlights.
Speaker: like zooming in on, on this, this, this challenge that I'm facing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, you know, I think there's, there's the piece of it that is validation.
Speaker: There's knowing that you've got people in your corner and like the, well, it's funny because, you know, as, as the, as the ENFP, I'm supposed to
Speaker: find that really valuable.
Speaker: But I guess I almost have like a defensiveness about that piece of it.
Speaker: Like, okay, it should be that, but it has to be also more.
Speaker: It has to be something practical that cashes out.
Speaker: And maybe that's just, yeah, like I was saying, my response to my anticipation of an objection, right?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: because I love to tell people that they're great and they're going to do great.
Speaker: And, you know, as I mature and get older, I realize that I have to also back that with something more.
Speaker: Again, I keep wanting to say real.
Speaker: I need to back that with something more concrete.
Speaker: And so...
Speaker: And so part of what we discussed was, you know, here are directions you can go.
Speaker: We also connected you with some referrals of like, you know, here's a guy who, so we talked about how you need to do high dollar coaching, right?
Speaker: Because you like deep diving.
Speaker: You like an intensive approach.
Speaker: kind of all consuming relationship with a single problem.
Speaker: I love it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So rather than having your day filled with a lot of shallow, maybe pedagogical opportunities where you're just sort of sprinkling these concepts across a broad audience.
Speaker: You want to take one person and just like a mechanic, just dig into all of the machinery and explore that space with them.
Speaker: And so we talked about like, well, that probably means you need to do high dollar consulting.
Speaker: You need to do extended engagements that take a lot of your time and pay a lot of your salary.
Speaker: And so we found a guy who does that type of consulting and who has connections to a network full of those types of customers and, you know, sent you in that direction.
Speaker: So like there was the emotional side of it, which I think is valuable.
Speaker: And then there was also this practical, you know, here's how we're actually going to build this business in the real world.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And for me, I need both of those things.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But one of those, which is the validation, it's almost impossible for me to do for myself.
Speaker: Like I can hop into business mode without too much trouble.
Speaker: But in terms of my blind spots, having sort of the moral enthusiasm is almost impossible for me to provide.
Speaker: And so in terms of, so first off,
Speaker: 100% the practical applications, I would agree.
Speaker: And I'm really grateful.
Speaker: Yeah, actually, both of those matter a great deal.
Speaker: And one of them is just harder for me to get.
Speaker: And so...
Speaker: Yeah, in the end, because one of them prompts me to moving and accomplishing things because I know that people appreciate and like, in a sense, the things that I'm offering.
Speaker: And that may be a weak side of me.
Speaker: But it's a side that it's a weight.
Speaker: And so having people to help me tease that out in the group was a really great experience.
Speaker: But to your point, everything about that call was super helpful.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm really glad to hear it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So and that's, you know, I feel like that's a huge component of the value that the guys get from the group.
Speaker: Not just the opportunity, you know, we've probably had a dozen hot seats at this point, maybe not quite a dozen.
Speaker: And so obviously not all the members have had that experience yet, but I think being able to participate in those hot seats and learn about someone else's challenges and help them through them is a really powerful experience for a lot of the guys.
Speaker: And that's something that I'm really, that I'm really proud of that we've built.
Speaker: And it's amazing how much, I don't know, when I first started, I was nervous that like there wouldn't be that much to say or like that it wouldn't be like all that insightful or meaningful, that it would be a lot of like kind of platitudes or cliches.
Speaker: And it's been a total, it's been the opposite of that.
Speaker: It's been, the guys have such incredible insight.
Speaker: They're so, they're just deep, deep guys and so willing to help.
Speaker: So it's an incredible experience.
Speaker: So one of the most fun ideas to come out of the hot seat last night was running a podcast where you cover fictional characters from a Jungian typology perspective.
Speaker: Like how does Gimli interact with Legolas on the basis of cognitive stack?
Speaker: So tell me a little bit about what's cool about that to you as opposed to writing a static book or like building a curriculum.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And as soon as you said Gimli and Legolas, I immediately started thinking of like, whoa, they're a bronze pair.
Speaker: They have actually high compatibility.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And surprise, surprise, they hang out with each other the whole way through the book and they have their little back and forth.
Speaker: Well, I was just, so I've been running a little thing like where I was teaching people for, for years.
Speaker: And in, in recent memory, gosh, those, those, the days where we, where we just typed some of the characters in books that we liked, like we had people talking and it was, it was just this loud, vibrant experience.
Speaker: And it was, it was a, it was a blast and it was,
Speaker: It was silly and stupid and hilarious.
Speaker: It was a great energy.
Speaker: And in terms of like what attracts people to ideas, it's fun.
Speaker: It's frivolity.
Speaker: And yeah, the idea of creating a YouTube channel or just the point of entry where we can have a fun time.
Speaker: Like I know it'll work, right?
Speaker: Because over like, yeah, so I've had like academic sessions where I teach people about the shadow and I teach people about what this looks like.
Speaker: And it's very
Speaker: professorial and bar none, awesome engagement from everyone in the crew, introverts included.
Speaker: Some people be like, there's no way Frodo could possibly be this.
Speaker: And like just these in passion responses.
Speaker: And yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was awesome.
Speaker: I think, I think there's a huge, there's a huge value in the ability to drum up non-serious controversy.
Speaker: Like people will get like performatively upset when,
Speaker: that you got the character wrong.
Speaker: But like, it's still in this like playful space.
Speaker: And so people get to be kind of loud and almost lampoon internet controversy itself by picking these fights over these silly things.
Speaker: And I think also one of the reasons why I got started on Twitter, or rather, one of the reasons why I got so absorbed by Twitter
Speaker: was that it's these little silly things that I could write about.
Speaker: They were just throwaways.
Speaker: Like I didn't have to worry about whether it was good or not because I was going to do 50 of them in a day.
Speaker: And, you know, you have some bangers, you have some good hits and, you know, a bunch of a miss and that's fine.
Speaker: And so I think it appealed to my desire to overcome that insecurity of like, is this good enough?
Speaker: Am I, you know, have I edited it exquisitely?
Speaker: And that really unlocked a lot of creativity for me that I'm now able to deploy.
Speaker: Like I just published a short story and I'm doing things that are more of the hard thing.
Speaker: But now I do it because I have the confidence that I developed from lots of people on Twitter being like, hey, you need to write a book or a story or whatever.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I love this podcast idea because it's such a great bunny slope.
Speaker: Like it's so, it's just going to, you're just going to flow.
Speaker: It's so easy to talk about and people are going to like it.
Speaker: They're going to think it's funny and it's definitely going to be an entree into the markets that you're, that you're hoping to exploit.
Speaker: So I'm really excited to see, to see this podcast, uh, come to life.
Speaker: And I'm also happy to serve on the podcast.
Speaker: If you, uh,
Speaker: Yeah, a guest appearance.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: 100%.
Speaker: I would love to be a part of it.
Speaker: So in addition to joining the group, you and I are also collaborating on a placement survey that uses your knowledge of Jungian typology to help our guys figure out an exit plan that's a good fit for them temperamentally.
Speaker: So I want to talk about some examples.
Speaker: I'm an ENFP, which means I'm a starter type.
Speaker: I like the excitement of the beginning of things.
Speaker: I like lots of options.
Speaker: I just did a write-up on franchising, where you essentially buy into a business and you execute their business model.
Speaker: And that...
Speaker: would be a really bad fit for a guy like me because the part that I like is the beginning and throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Speaker: And with a franchise operation, not only do you not have to do that, they won't let you do that.
Speaker: If you come up with a new idea, you got to run it all the way up the corporate chain and they've got to come back down and give you a dispensation to do that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So there's lots of dimensions to this.
Speaker: Tell me, give me an idea of another temperament type and where you would tell them would be a good place to explore.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: And just talking about your franchising example, I was thinking of what are the types that would do well with a franchise.
Speaker: And so in the idealist category, you have two that would do well or better with a franchise.
Speaker: And that would be the INFJ and the ENFJ because they want to go in and they have their own ambitions, but it's more soft skills generating relationships.
Speaker: They're not interested in building relationships.
Speaker: the business structure as much as they are building a social network and group of people.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So the thing that they want to build within that franchise is free for them.
Speaker: Whereas the stuff that's challenging for them is already done by, by the group themselves.
Speaker: But even more perfectly a franchisee, perhaps an ESTJ would be an excellent person who can come in and maintain the environment really well.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because they're respecters of tradition.
Speaker: of order.
Speaker: They're interested in precise allocation of work to get optimal outcomes.
Speaker: So like, are you in the Henry Ford factory making things as efficient as possible, right?
Speaker: Like the ESTJ can come in and help that be maintained.
Speaker: So what about there's lots of these independent trade businesses?
Speaker: What's the type of temperament that that's the best fit for?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I think you might be able to flex an ENFJ or an ENTJ into a trade, right?
Speaker: Because SE Child, you know, enjoys working with their hands.
Speaker: But really, the trades are going to feel much more natural.
Speaker: for the ESFP and the ESTP.
Speaker: Those are the ones.
Speaker: And then for the ISFP and the ISTP, you're still going to want to work with your hands, but you like having your one-man operations.
Speaker: Whereas the ESTP and the ESFP, they're going to run the crew of lawn mowing businesses and it's enjoyable for them and they're outgoing and they get to be doing stuff and paying attention to all these details all the time.
Speaker: I personally know a family and they have two ESFPs
Speaker: each of them own their own tiling company.
Speaker: So this is very common for especially the extroverted sensing dominance.
Speaker: In my experience, most notably ESFPs.
Speaker: Yeah, so maybe at the point where your business becomes too big for you and it's time to scale it.
Speaker: Like suppose you've got...
Speaker: an ESTP and an ISTP who both own a small business and it's time to scale it.
Speaker: They're getting more work than they can personally do.
Speaker: So maybe an ISTP scaling strategy is more like I need to sell this business or I need to put myself in a position where I am advisory
Speaker: or I'm deploying my expertise rather than my time so that it stays kind of a one-man operation and they're not supervising employees.
Speaker: But then an ESTP might take the approach of it's time to hire on hands and it's time to, you know, maybe once I've got more than a crew, it's time to hire a crew chief and supervise him.
Speaker: And because I can hang in that social world and I want to, I have the energy to do that.
Speaker: It's exactly like you said.
Speaker: So the ISTP is going to want to have a little more control, right?
Speaker: Because the social energy is a little harder to muster.
Speaker: So they're going to be more reticent to pull in new people.
Speaker: But an ESTP is more likely to want to bring in more people in the tripod.
Speaker: Now, in both of those cases, the right fit temperamentally to walk into a business partner is an STJ.
Speaker: You're going to want an STJ partner if you're going to begin expanding on existing framework.
Speaker: So someone who can say, how do we codify
Speaker: the extroverted sensing's approach in a way that we can teach and transfer to more people, right?
Speaker: How can we develop a sort of rule book to live by, right?
Speaker: Because that's what they're looking for.
Speaker: They're looking for traditions,
Speaker: effective execution.
Speaker: And this guy is proof that the way he's doing it is good.
Speaker: So if I can just create a little rule book, I can then teach.
Speaker: So essentially it's a natural fit.
Speaker: It's a natural fit, the STJ and the STP.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so there's all kinds of angles to this.
Speaker: There's what type of job would you like?
Speaker: There's what's the future trajectory of that job?
Speaker: Because like we said, with the extroverted, introverted artisan type,
Speaker: You can go very different directions.
Speaker: There's also, like you're saying, what kind of partner do you need?
Speaker: Who completes you, so to speak?
Speaker: So the idea behind this survey is to gather that information more efficiently and more precisely maybe than...
Speaker: some of the other quizzes that are out there and also gather information about like, you know, where are you currently?
Speaker: Are you where you want to be or are you trying to switch to something else?
Speaker: And then say, all right, given this information, you probably need to pick up some Python.
Speaker: or you probably need to start a trade business or you need to or maybe or maybe it's not a professional thing for you.
Speaker: Maybe you need to keep your day job and start building side income that makes you more robust or or learn some.
Speaker: homesteading type skills or some like DIY type skills.
Speaker: And so the goal would be to have people come into the group with that level of self-knowledge that's like, oh, okay, here are some things that I could be looking for in the group.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So going back to getting started in this consulting business, I think it can be challenging for guys of your type to get started, to
Speaker: leave their comfort zone, display ambition, sell themselves.
Speaker: So you made this decision to launch this business relatively recently, although you've been doing this kind of work for people essentially for free for a long time.
Speaker: How did getting into the group help you to crack through some of those obstacles?
Speaker: Well, you know, that was a jump.
Speaker: So I guess if we're using INTP language, I don't have a history of being an exit group.
Speaker: It's not something that I've done.
Speaker: And so doing that puts me in a space where I'm already exiting my comfort zone with a desire to find and navigate change and opportunity.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so for an INTP, it's a new space.
Speaker: It's a new space.
Speaker: And so that sort of set me up to be prepared to make further entries into foreign territory, which is...
Speaker: Now I'm this expert that is, that has people that have expectations of me, that there is a client relationship.
Speaker: These are all very new frames by which to put my ideas, right?
Speaker: So as you said, I did it for a very, very long time, years, just like
Speaker: as as uh passing advice to to friends or family and um and so it was nice to be in an environment in which there were people who were excited about my idea right like i can know that my idea is true i like ti hero yeah like yeah it's it makes sense it's correct it works does anybody care
Speaker: Does anybody care about this?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then finding a group of people that did indeed care a great deal enough so that, you know, they they pay for it was to put it frankly, miraculous.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because prior to that, I and then and then I'd get pushback from people that say, Scott, stop doing
Speaker: like free is not the cost of the thing that you're doing.
Speaker: Free is not right.
Speaker: And I was like, okay, okay, well then what is right?
Speaker: And that's an FI, that's a value question.
Speaker: So INTPs, we source that from the tribe.
Speaker: So we're not getting this internally.
Speaker: So I'm looking outwards to be like, okay, what is the cost of this?
Speaker: And then I got a massive array of opinions.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then I had to choose, okay, well, which one am I going to try out?
Speaker: And then I had to try out a couple price points and then some of them worked.
Speaker: And what was really interesting, which I had never considered prior, was that the simple fact that people are...
Speaker: providing monetary capital in support of the thing that I'm providing has created a group of people that follow my advice.
Speaker: And that feels amazing.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So giving it for free.
Speaker: No one.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like it's free.
Speaker: So how good could it really be?
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: And that didn't it didn't change the content.
Speaker: It just changed how people looked at it.
Speaker: It's it's it's maddening.
Speaker: Well, look, I'm I'm open to making more and earning more and that sort of thing.
Speaker: But I guess sometimes there is this sort of, I guess...
Speaker: misunderstanding about like the material itself has is the same now as it was like a few months ago in terms of intellectual content right yeah and the only difference was people pay for it and yeah so i don't i don't know if i'm articulating this well but that was a point of frustration realizing all those years that i was doing it for free and people and some people would apply but primarily it was just looked at like
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: There's something about paying for something that is motivating.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: And it's something that I'm learning now.
Speaker: I mean, if nothing else, like I think there's definitely an effect where somebody pays and then they decide they care on the basis of having paid.
Speaker: But I think also it just sorts for the people who really want to move.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because the people who don't, the people who aren't going to take you seriously just don't pay you.
Speaker: And so you just don't do it and you don't have that frustration.
Speaker: And I've definitely had guys express interest in like a trial of exit group where like, let me just go in and see what it's like and try it out.
Speaker: And I'm like, no, like, because...
Speaker: I want people in the group who are committed to the group, not just like, not just in terms of like, I want them to like move their ass, which I do because I want their life to be better.
Speaker: And I know that we have these tools that can make that happen.
Speaker: But also I want them to be available to other people.
Speaker: And the type of guy who is willing to pay to be part of this community is the type of guy who's going to care enough to say like, yeah, I can, I can answer questions about,
Speaker: Python or how to get this kind of a job or this trade that I'm working on.
Speaker: The investment radically changes who the group is.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So you've also mentioned to me that a big part of your challenge is
Speaker: with money is like, you know a lot of people who are wealthy and profoundly unhappy.
Speaker: And so your desire for comfort and your resistance to change and your resistance to ambition was very much like vindicated by your personal experience.
Speaker: Like why would I get out of my cozy spot and put in a huge amount of effort and work into this project
Speaker: so that I can make money when that money is clearly not solving my fundamental problems.
Speaker: You, and I think a lot of INTPs, you could be very happy living very simply.
Speaker: And so the idea of, it's not like you're not ambitious because you just don't have whatever moral virtue defines ambition.
Speaker: It's more the case that because you have the capacity to live simply,
Speaker: You value comfort.
Speaker: The risk reward trade-off for putting yourself out there as an entrepreneur is very, very different than a guy who really wants to live in France and go to fancy parties and have a private jet.
Speaker: If that desire really animates him, then it's easy for him to put in the work.
Speaker: But you're like, what am I going to do with money?
Speaker: What is the point?
Speaker: And I think as part of these conversations, as part of getting this business off the ground, you're kind of discovering, you just like the money is partly social proof.
Speaker: And it's partly like, you know, I need to be able to dedicate myself to this.
Speaker: And so I don't want to be trying to do this while I'm flipping burgers.
Speaker: But beyond that, the way to get in touch with your ambition is to attack what you're really ambitious about, which is
Speaker: helping other people and taking your TI, taking your introverted thinking, your ideas, the conclusions that you've come to and seeing them enacted in the real world.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Well, yeah.
Speaker: Preach.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I come from a family with lots of people who have done very well for themselves.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, and it is, yeah, it was, it was good to like put, put a pin in the idea that understanding that making mountains money is not a good end game for me.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: As evidenced by concrete, real examples that I can see on a daily basis.
Speaker: And also, yes, I, I, I desperately want like the, the ideas that I have,
Speaker: to impact the world in a positive way.
Speaker: Like that's my, yeah, I just feel strongly about that.
Speaker: Yeah, and so maybe that gets you out of bed when the money wouldn't.
Speaker: Yeah, but then people tell me this is a thing that you must attend to.
Speaker: This is a thing that you have to pay attention to.
Speaker: And then I often will feel, I don't know, like I suppose you could say it's a luxury not to care
Speaker: And maybe it is, but I do live very simply.
Speaker: And I like having all of my freedom dedicated to the intellectual world and to helping and supporting people that I care about.
Speaker: I like having that freedom.
Speaker: And when I entangle myself financially with tons of options and stocks, what is that?
Speaker: It detracts from my ability to do the thing that I want and that I love doing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think that's probably less the case for my cognitive style.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I think we are both in this position of like, I wouldn't run an entrepreneurship group just to run an entrepreneurship group, like one that was dedicated to like, we're all going to go get paid.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That would not appeal to me because like, I also just don't have a lot of expensive appetites.
Speaker: And, you know, it is a ton of work and, you know, it has to mean something for me.
Speaker: Like the, and also just like in terms of the type of group that it would attract.
Speaker: And maybe this is my like FI talking, like, do I feel right about this?
Speaker: Do I feel good about this?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's really important to me.
Speaker: It's really important to me that the guys that I am attracting and the goals that I am making happen for other people,
Speaker: are in line with my conscience.
Speaker: And that was a huge challenge working for all these corporations.
Speaker: It's like the morally correct decision was to drag my feet.
Speaker: And like the financially remunerative decision was to work really hard.
Speaker: And, you know, like there's obviously like the moral complication of like taking somebody's money for a job you're not really doing.
Speaker: But because it was, but because, you know, working hard for those people was so at odds with what I actually believed in, it was much more easy to like tell myself a story of like, ah, it'll wait a day.
Speaker: You know, like I'll get it done, but it'll wait a day.
Speaker: And with this, I have a phone call with every one of those guys and I get to know what their big dream is.
Speaker: And it's always this really beautiful dream.
Speaker: It's always like, I want my, I want to be able to raise my kids in a healthier way.
Speaker: I want to, I want to be able to say what I think and, and, and, and do what I really believe in and be successful in this like legacy building way.
Speaker: Like I want to be successful so that I can hire people who need help.
Speaker: I want to, I want to be successful so that my, so that my kids have flexibility and freedom that I didn't have.
Speaker: Or in particular, a lot of them are like, I want to have the freedom so that my wife doesn't have to work so that she can raise the kids and so that we can live on land where the kids can have this experience that seems to be a lot healthier than a lot of, you know, sort of urban and suburban upbringings.
Speaker: And so like, I am just,
Speaker: amped to help those guys.
Speaker: And it's very important to me that they succeed.
Speaker: And so you found this zone where what you're good at providing also meshes with what you value and what you want to get back.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think that our hearts yearn for these noble pieces of ourselves that emerge as we move towards things that we feel passionate about.
Speaker: Not just passion, but like vision and clarity.
Speaker: Like I've been learning, obviously, young is an influence for me.
Speaker: And then you have Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey and this amalgamation or collection of thousands of hero myths.
Speaker: And then the takeaways of that, that cross culturally across the globe, we have all these different people
Speaker: speaking similar stories in in very different ways unique to their culture and and it's this sort of this desire to to break free to become more to search for um gifts and opportunities and return triumphant to the people that you care about as a changed person yeah and uh
Speaker: And I know that that rings true for it's just a human thing that we all feel.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And
Speaker: And then, and then there's, there's a, it looks different.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There's, there's different flavors of it.
Speaker: It's the hero's journey is unique in that it, it, it's, it's solid across all the types.
Speaker: Every type has to move through these challenging things to, to find themselves and, and, and be more complete.
Speaker: And so, and, and,
Speaker: What's amazing is the universe, it feels to me, shows up and says, here is a new door where there wasn't one before, because now I see that you're looking for this growth and opportunity.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: So like, so the shaman shows up when the hero is ready.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So ultimately this thing has to go beyond Scott and you have a lot of friends in the group who are excited for you to make this something scalable, repeatable, something where you're not just getting paid by the hour for your time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Now, I know that it's not about the money, as we've discussed, but tell me about the long-term vision.
Speaker: Because it's like the starfish on the beach.
Speaker: You, right now, are pretty happy with picking a starfish up one at a time and throwing it into the water and making a difference for individuals.
Speaker: Do you have a desire to move beyond that into something that could help more people?
Speaker: If I'm honest...
Speaker: Maybe not.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: You like it being one on one.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I want to pick up the starfish.
Speaker: I like I like working with one person.
Speaker: I love devoting all my attention to one person at a time.
Speaker: And then I understand simply based upon my own experience that an individual can make a difference.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I understand that when I put all of my effort into a person, that that experience can ripple into the lives of their loved ones, of their business partners.
Speaker: That understanding on its own will will move out into the greater community.
Speaker: And I'm not going to sort of curtail the possibility for growth.
Speaker: But if I'm perfectly honest, I I'm very happy to keep this personal.
Speaker: Yeah, because I love it.
Speaker: So, yeah, a friend of ours told me about an analogy.
Speaker: He made the analogy of a pirate ship.
Speaker: And it was such a cool analogy to me because I've often thought, like, what's my ideal size of organization?
Speaker: And it's like a pirate ship.
Speaker: It's like I want to know everybody, but I want there to be enough capacity beyond myself to get a lot of things done.
Speaker: And he said, you know, the way that people expand beyond their individual pirate ship is that they make the captains of the new ships, they make them their crew.
Speaker: So like, instead of having... Because I know that you love to teach this stuff, as well as finding the way that it caches out.
Speaker: And so I wonder if the right way to...
Speaker: scale this maybe is to find people that you teach this method to and then you get to watch as they make an impact in all these other people's lives.
Speaker: That's, that's what I, that's what I want.
Speaker: And I, and I do love, I love teaching.
Speaker: And, and absolutely, that, that aligns perfectly with, with the things that I'd like to accomplish is seeing people surpass me, look at things differently, make things better, right?
Speaker: I'm, I'm not, I'm not capable of seeing everything.
Speaker: And the more people that understand this very particular way of looking at the world, the more connected and complete the picture can be.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I feel that a lot.
Speaker: I mean, just for example, because you're more of an ideas guy, if you were to find someone who was more of a, like in my case where I'm an options guy, I'm about giving people options.
Speaker: My approach to this kind of consulting would be radically different from yours, even though we're using the same tool set.
Speaker: And so I'm not auditioning right now, but I'm saying like a guy like me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: A guy like me could potentially take it in a very different direction and help a different set of people.
Speaker: And so maybe then you could even do it like – because I know that you've talked about how there are certain types who are more difficult for you to reach.
Speaker: It could even be like I'm going to refer you to this guy who's going to be able to just –
Speaker: nail what you need solved because of his temperament and maybe provide a better service than you individually are able to do.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And I think about that.
Speaker: There doesn't exist right now an INTJ that I know that I can hand off to the ENTPs or the ESFJs, the people that match up perfectly.
Speaker: Because admittedly, this system is big and it's complicated.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it takes a lot of effort to figure it out.
Speaker: But regardless, yeah, teaching people and filling blind spots.
Speaker: Like, absolutely, I align with that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so maybe the task for your business at this stage is to make those personal impacts, those one-on-one impacts,
Speaker: at enough of a level and enough of a scale and across a broad enough set of domains that you have the social proof to then say, I have this system that if you can learn it, you can come help people that I can't help.
Speaker: And then it's like, you're not having to sell
Speaker: Because right now, it's very much about your personal credibility.
Speaker: People hear you speak and they go, I like the cut of his jib.
Speaker: I want to hear more about his brain.
Speaker: That may be hard for you to hear.
Speaker: I don't like being a prophet.
Speaker: I want to curate the ideas.
Speaker: Yeah, you would much prefer to frame this as like, I have this cool system.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I think that right now you are the guy.
Speaker: Nobody else is doing this, even though lots and lots of people know about Jung.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And, and so even if it's just because like you had the autism to just sit and, and think about this for like a decade, you know, even if that's the source of your like credibility here, it is about something special that you did that nobody else did not to say they couldn't, but they didn't.
Speaker: And so I guess the challenge at this point becomes, uh,
Speaker: building another person into somebody that has that kind of credibility with the system.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And yeah.
Speaker: And, and so I have to do my own shadow work.
Speaker: I have to be more socially friendly.
Speaker: I have to work in my inferior slot.
Speaker: I have to be open and excited.
Speaker: And the person that pats you on the back and tells you that you're loved, like, I can do that.
Speaker: But it takes... It's not...
Speaker: I don't want to say it's not easy, right?
Speaker: Like it comes naturally, just not to the degree that it does for others.
Speaker: And I'm noticing as I do that, my life is better.
Speaker: So to people out there, working on your shadow is fulfilling your
Speaker: and it's helpful, even though it's painful and hard, meaning will arise.
Speaker: Like you'll be like, oh, okay, this is a space that walking in helps.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, so I love this business and it's been tremendously fulfilling to me personally to watch as you have found clients within the group and bounced ideas off with the guys.
Speaker: and leverage this network and are building this freedom for yourself.
Speaker: That's the dream for me.
Speaker: And so I was really excited to share your story with the guys.
Speaker: So if you want to learn more about what Scott's doing, I'm going to post a Calendly link in the description for this podcast.
Speaker: You can set up a free consultation with him to figure out your type.
Speaker: figure out potentially how Scott can help you.
Speaker: If you want to learn more about what Exit is all about and the way that we're building businesses, teaching people about raising chickens or learning a trade or learning how to code, and also just building a really supportive community, you can check us out at exitgroup.us or follow us at Twitter at exit underscore org.
Speaker: Thanks so much, Scott.
Speaker: It's great talking to you.
Speaker: Yeah, you too.
Speaker: Thanks for having me.
