S4.E11: THE BURNING (1981) Review | Summer Camp Slashers

Transcript

Speaker: Welcome back to The Average. This evening we are officially opening the cabin doors to kick off a new themed month that we've been eager to delve into. Join us for the debut of our Summer Camp Slasher series.

Speaker: Over the next several weeks, we're leaving the comforts of civilization behind and venturing deep into the wilderness. We'll be investigating urban legends, campfire horrors, and the inventive practical effects that characterized the prime era of 1980s independent horror.

Speaker: We're starting off at the pinnacle with a 1981 classic of summer terror that was so intense, it earned a spot on the video nasty banned list in the UK, The Burning. This film unveils the chilling tale of Cropsey, a severely burned camp caretaker on a vengeful rampage armed with head shears. But before we set out to the raft, we've got some impressive support in the booth with us tonight. Joining us are two prominent figures in the horror scene.

Speaker: First, we have one of the brilliant creators behind at the horror vision and the author of black gloves and broken hearts. Let's welcome Sean C Baker. It's fantastic to have you here, Sean. so good to be back especially talking about the burning i love this film i love you guys and let's just oh i can't wait to get into it we love you too we're glad you're here and right next to him we have an outstanding physical media aficionado a boutique restoration specialist and the host of the amazing beyond the blood podcast welcome chris it's great to have you joining us

Speaker: Dude, thank you so much. I'm stoked to be back. This is my favorite campground slasher film of all time. So to come back and join you lovely guys to talk about this movie, I i couldn't say no.

Speaker: I'm so excited for the depth of knowledge you bring to these. Thank you, sir. Thank you. I love that you called it lovely.

Speaker: You're not wrong. got a compliment as much as I can, you know? Yep. Now, gentlemen, before we dive into the core of this film, we need to discuss the wild history surrounding this production. A fun trivia tidbit for our audience, The Burning is renowned for being the feature film debut for several major talents, including Jason Alexander long before Seinfeld, Fisher Stevens, and even Holly Hunter.

Speaker: it's jason alexander with hair so it's additionally the entire concept was co-written and produced by that harvey weinstein and bob weinstein but this was long before miramax grew into the hollywood powerhouse this was miramax's first film But the real standout behind the scenes is the legendary Tom Savini, who actually opted out of Friday the 13th Part 2 to work on the practical effects for this film to demonstrate his beliefs about continuity and gore.

Speaker: Tonight, we'll discover Savini's craftsmanship, especially that notorious jaw-dropping raft scene, remains among the best practical effects in horror history. As always, the final decision rests with you, the audience. The live chat is open right now. So jump in there and share your thoughts. Don't forget to click the link in the bio to complete the average scorecard during the stream. We want to capture that final audience average live on air.

Speaker: Absolutely. So keep an eye on the wood line and be cautious of the shears. Let's head to camp. boom All right, guys.

Speaker: So this is one of my favorite ah sub-genres of horror and not just slasher sub-genre, but the summer camp slasher specifically is my comfort food. I said it on the last Dread broadcast. There's just something, i partially, maybe it was my dad running a summer camp growing up my whole life. Like I spent every summer at a summer camp.

Speaker: So it's very relatable to me. And it's also, It's just fun. I think it's so much fun. And that's why this one specifically, we'll get into what makes this one so different from the others, but also Sleepaway Camp.

Speaker: Go for Jonathan. Sleepaway Camp has something similar to these. is so oh, we got Jessica. And well i' I'll just go into it with the... Nightclub was here. I don't know i don't know if they're still here. Someone's here.

Speaker: ah But the things I love about the ones we picked for this series is there are campers at the camp. That is a big one for me. That's one i friday the 13th the first movie i think is one of the weakest in the franchise uh the sixth one is the only one that actually has kids at the camp yeah and i think that's one of the better entries in the franchise i think having the kids at camp adds another layer to what is going on and that's something the burning does it's something the sleepaway camp films do and i'm excited to talk in talk about these stories and what makes the burning

Speaker: stand out. So one of our guests, does somebody want to tackle what you think about the story first? So, I mean, this is like... when i I'll give a little background. So when I was young, and i've I've talked about this on my podcast so many times, I used to go joeblo.com. It was specifically called Arrow in the Head. And that was the pre-Bloody Disgusting yeah horror website. right And back, I'm going probably... i was probably early 2000s. They used to have a section of the website called Kill of the Day. And it was these terrible, like low frame rate...

Speaker: kit like uh scenes that were just kill clips from movies and the raft scene was one of them and it was one that i watched over and over and over again and that was probably decade before i even saw the burning so when i finally saw the burning and that scene came up it was sort of like yet a nightmare that came to life it was sort of like i was really kind of traumatized by that But I think what I love most about the story of the burning is that it it kind of ditches and it's so early on. There's only a year after Friday the thirteenth three years after Halloween.

Speaker: You know who the killer is right off the rip. the the The story of Cropsey is established. We know that that's who's out there. So we don't have to play the whole game of Red Herrings, who is suspicious. You can kind of abandon all of that and build these really unique kind of little, not innocent, but more innocent plots that drive drama.

Speaker: such as like the peeping Tom in the shower. You know what i mean? Like you can build that you can build glazier as the bully and kind of, hey, what's that going to do? And then you add the overwhelming plot, which is oh we're going for a night out. It's you know, where we have to get on rafts and we have to go somewhere isolated and we're going to sleep away.

Speaker: Then you have the killer on top of all of that. And I think that builds an incredibly unique but an incredibly fun story to let the slasher trope kind of lay upon, if that makes sense.

Speaker: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. it's You know, and like Tim said, there's a scene when they're all in the mess hall or whatever. There's so many campers. I mean, it's crazy. And the first time I saw it and I don't remember when I first saw it either. I was I know I had seen clips same as you said, Chris.

Speaker: And i just don't even remember. But I was older, you know, I was at least probably 30. um There's so many kids and I remember the first time I saw it, i was like, are they going to kill all these kids? Like, holy cow, this is going to be nuts. But then it does that thing where, and it reminds me of a little bit of a movie I've seen since then called Rituals with Hale Holbrook.

Speaker: um Where you know we're oh we're gonna take some of the older kids we're gonna go on these rafts We're gonna go up the river to this special place or whatever and it's like okay So now we get how they're gonna like segregate the people that are gonna get killed because that would otherwise be insanely ambitious but it yeah yeah almost everybody is likable. And that's something I was watching some extras on the, I have the Shout, I think it's the Shout Factory disc. And um yeah, Scream Factory. i was watching some of the extras the other night and Savini's talking. He's like, yeah, I gave up Friday the 13th part two because it had Jason and Jason it doesn't exist. I mean, if you saw that, you know, so he had an interesting viewpoint at that time, you know, and he it talks about how later, like,

Speaker: He kind of came out of that, but initially he was like, what do you mean you're gonna have Jason? Whatever, I'm going go do this other movie. But he talks about the fact that I'm like, yeah, he's right. like yeah I like almost all of them. I mean, you know, the bully's a douche, but other, I mean...

Speaker: I don't know. like We'll get into his arc, too. But yeah, go ahead. Yeah, but like Jason Alexander, you i like I actually like that guy. feel like I knew that guy they're They're all like really really authentic kind of archetypes of of the era. Because, mean, I grew up in the 80s. I didn't... Okay.

Speaker: Tim, you went to summer camp. Jonathan and the Chris, did you guys ever go to summer camp? Christian camp and Boy Scout camp. Okay. I went for a weekend or a week or something in like sixth grade to something called White Pines. It wasn't really a summer camp, but it was essentially the same thing. Other than that, no.

Speaker: i mean, so I don't You know, I have a little bit of experience, but not much. Not like Tim. And I don't know. I just, I feel like. I just believe them all so much. I really like this film.

Speaker: Well, what's great here is I feel like everything is so thought out. The two characters you're not supposed to like because of things that happened early on. Todd, or I'm sorry, not Todd, Alfred and Glazer both have like, by the end of it, you don't feel the same way about them because something occurs, it switches it. And that's not typical of a slasher movie. Usually like the bully stays the bully, who they are the whole entire time. They get killed off. You feel good about it. You're rooting for it. Yeah, every character in here, I don't want to die. And the movie is like, dude, from the from the moment the camp is introduced post the opening Cropsey sequence, there's like 45 minutes before anything happens. And you're 45 minutes of building location and character and story. And it really makes the payoff of the first kill once they're isolated so much stronger. And yes, you'll only get stronger from there. It's really unique.

Speaker: I like that in this one, we even get the fake-out kills with, or the attempted, when they're playing baseball in that very first shot, and the ball bounces into the woods, and we see he's about to get her, but then she leans over to get the ball and misses. And I like that!

Speaker: I like that, that we build to this moment. And then when that moment happens, I've been trying to remember, cause I watched it last night, but i don't think about this when I watch it. Isn't the first kill at the raft scene.

Speaker: Yeah. Oh no. No. First kill is the hooker. Well, OK, well, at the camp. At the camp. I love the way it just goes to the deuce.

Speaker: He's on the hospital. He's like, of course, I'm going to go to, you know, 22nd and get up. Yes. So no, the earth the first kill is, um what's her name? That, ah um oh, my God, I'm already blanking on character names, which is the thing that works. Oh, the one who was skinny dipping.

Speaker: Karen. Yes, that's right. That's right. and and who went out Who went out with Eddie? Yes. and yeah Yeah. Because he and eie the piece of trash. Yeah, they wake up Eddie to figure out where she is. And that's when they're told that the rafts are missing.

Speaker: That's right. That is right. OK. Yeah. So this story, I also like that this one. ah ah There are a couple movies that use the Cropsey legend, but the story is directly adapted from a real and prominent urban legend from upstate New York and Staten Island about the Cropsey maniac. And it it actually influenced a couple movies right around this same time. But I like that this movie really, it it kind of tries to enhance a real life urban legend, a real life campfire story. it

Speaker: kind of tries to to me it's bringing that campfire story to the screen not inventing a new one even though this is a twist on the cropsy sean you walked watched a cropsy documentary didn't you so you can probably enlighten this kind of doesn't really have anything to do with that they just took the name Yeah, kind I mean, there's talk about there having been something about because it's mostly that like abandoned hospital in upstate in Staten Island. And man, Staten Island, you know, I've been New York a couple of times.

Speaker: I don't know much about New York, but like I never realized Staten Island is just a really messed up place. It really is. That's what I want. Or at least it was. That's what I walked away from this documentary thinking like, man ah But it's it's really, it it doesn't, you know, they kind of just took the name and like he supposedly killed kids. So they just kind of transplanted it and focused on, well, I guess it is upstate New York, this camp though, right? Yeah. Blackfoot. Yep. So, yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, I think that's all we need to know. Home of Davidson.

Speaker: I think what really like cemented for me is that we see crops like usually, you know, Friday the 13th, it all takes place on the camp, right? Halloween, Halloween 2 does a really good job at expanding it out and you got to see more of Haddonfield and field it it makes it feel more But with the burning, the first couple of moments were Cropsey. Like, I love the hospital sequence where the the one orderly brings the doctor in. You got to see this. This a mess of shit.

Speaker: dr yeah You got to check this out. Yeah, dude, like that. That is awesome. And it establishes like the character existing outside of the campground. But then also when he does get out, you have this sort of seedy ah kind of maniac style New York Jalo kill sequence. which Yes. Which brings it even further.

Speaker: farther outside of the campground so when he moves into the campground he feels so real intangible because we've seen him apart from this environment he's not attached to this and there's something about that that feels like more real than than strictly being isolated never seeing him anywhere else Well, I, for the longest time, I hated that New York kill with the sex worker. I hated it.

Speaker: And then I started to come around to just because it didn't fit the rest of the movie, I felt like. And then I realized that the opening scene, could be portrayed that Cropsey is kind of a sympathetic character. Like, these kids made up these rumors about him and spread these stories about him, and what happened to him, while yes, is a tragic accident, he might have been a decent person.

Speaker: But then we kind of learn in that New York scene that it establishes like, no, you shouldn't really be sympathetic towards Cropsey. He gets out, immediately goes to like the red light district and kills someone. And so you're like, okay. And even though I think there's still a layer of sympathy there, because I was watching someone else talk about this movie and they were like, he couldn't even pay that woman to sleep with him because he's so disfigured. And that that's how they put it. And so there's still like a layer of sympathy there. But I think that scene specifically helps you kind of sever that sympathy that you might have had. and you're like, okay, he is pure villain. He is not the victim of these kids prank.

Speaker: He is yeah a bad dude. I like to think, though, and I have no proof of this, like all the commentaries we listen to, nobody ever talked about this, but I like to think that he was probably already doing this anyway. He was probably leaving the camp, going into the city, sleeping with prostitutes, you know, because It's weird that that he would come out and be like, okay, going to get my first kill in Let me go find a prostitute, bring go up to her room. It feels almost as if he did this, and he's just kind of going back to a routine. and then the moment she begins to panic, he kind of goes right into this this mode. Because it almost feels like...

Speaker: he doesn't go like he doesn't even have a weapon with him when he goes in. He has to grab a weapon to kill her with. So it doesn't feel like he's prepared to kill anybody. It's almost like he went right back into a habit that he was comfortable with. And the reaction is what pushed that over. But i'm I'm not sure. That's just my perception of it. That kind of makes sense. And I think that could lean into like the legend of Cropsey was that he was killing people like right. So it could it could be kind of helping. i like the idea of kind of marrying those two about that is showing him in the film kind of picking up old habits and we're filling in the blanks with the legend that we know of, of Cropsey killing people and being like, okay, yep, nope, checks out. Same guy. This is correct. Well, yeah, I mean, maybe that's where he found sort of because he's not liked in the camp, especially by the kids, you know, he's, he's the caretaker, you know, so maybe he did find comfort in strangers that he had to pay to give him that comfort. So coming out of the hospital,

Speaker: After years and years and years of rehabilitation, it was probably the comfortable thing he went right back to. And then that reaction by the one by this person who is traditionally supposed to make him comfortable is just like ah it's a snap. It's like, oh, well, you know, now I'm going to kill you because i what else am I going to do? and I'm going to go back to the camp and I'm going to get my vengeance, you know?

Speaker: Right. So, I mean, I kind of feel like Tim does about it. it First, it does seem kind of pointless to me, but in retrospect, with with what you guys have already said, you know, he spent five years in a hospital going through rehabilitation, five years of just stewing in his fury and anger at these kids and their bullshit.

Speaker: being punk asses that caused him to be such an early asshole and a murderer. And it's like, okay, I've been in this five years and you get all and you hear the doctors like, don't try not to be mad. It was just a prank gone wrong. Don't be mad. Don't be mad. Don't be mad. i Do not be mad. That little moment right there that you're talking about is an excellent, I was going to mention this with direction, that is an excellent moment of storytelling as he is just being wheeled down the hallway and we're hearing this dialogue that could have covered the five years, various little clips from over those five years. I just think that's an ah excellent moment of storytelling in the film.

Speaker: Yeah, can so like I think that just kind of leads up to him being like, okay, now that I'm out, like, I need to vent some of my anger and I'm going to do it on a prostitute because nobody's going to give a shit about her. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So...

Speaker: Yeah, there you go. But what what Chris is saying, though, to that point of wanting comfort from being something that he's used to and then like her freaking out, causing him to go into rage, that could be it could be a duality in that one, or it could be one or the other.

Speaker: Yeah, it's my I call it my ah my novelization theory. It's like you know in the 80s when you would get the horror movie novelizations and they had no choice but to kind of flesh it out. and That's kind of like my novelization bit. It's like... Hey, he went right back to what he was comfortable in. And, you know, honestly, it's sort of like, this is what I love about movies, is that you can kind of fill in the blanks with whatever you feel is fitting. So it's just kind of an interesting, you know, i think, look at it. And honestly, if you...

Speaker: kind of go in with that attitude. It does kind of change up all the events. But outside of this, we never really get anything more out of Cropsey than just strictly being a killer. You know what I mean? I don't think there was any real thought there.

Speaker: Yeah, we definitely fleshed her out for sure. ah yeah. ah From this moment on, we we pop into the camp and we kind of get your basic summer camp set up it's kids and counselors the issue with this movie that i have with this movie is i can't tell who's a counselor and who's a kid i don't know who's who they're all the same age i don't care if it's it's technically the actors are like 21 to 35 they all look like adults so that is there except

Speaker: there are quite a few that are distinctly still like 15 and, yeah but they are thrown in as if they are campers. the The average age 35. Yeah. ah But there are quite a few like kids actually thrown in there enough to make it feel a little bit more realistic. But then to my brain, the problem is, like i feel like that guy should be in charge, but he's acting like a camper. and not like Jason Alexander should be in charge, not a camper.

Speaker: And I was watching it. Yeah, I was watching it earlier. And there's a moment with ah where we kind of have this tracking shot through the women's like, ah you know, the sleeping cabin. Yeah, and I'm watching and I'm like, OK, these are all obviously these are all ah kids attending the camp because all their beds are are left to right. And then we get to Michelle and her bed is vertical.

Speaker: And I was like, oh, she must be the counselor that faces the other way. That is the only distinction. I think they're like bunk leaders maybe more so than counselors.

Speaker: Man, that that's that is one of the that is one of my biggest like... It's not an issue with the film. I still love the film, but is it is watching it going like, I don't know who's in charge, except the one guy who stands up in the cafeteria and is like reading from the clipboard yeah about the older kids are going to go on a three night. Like that guy's in charge. That's all I know. Todd's in charge. That guy's in charge of nothing. Todd has a dream to get them to listen to him.

Speaker: So that is my biggest issue with like the story element of the camp. Other than that, I think this movie does the elements of summer camp really well, ah better than a lot of the other slashers. And we're we're putting this in with sleepaway camp, which is the other great example of doing it well.

Speaker: But this one... There's something about the story in the camp itself, before we even get to those kills, that is what I love most about this film. Because it feels like friends playing baseball. It feels like that boy trying to hook up with that girl. It feels like the prank prank of pushing that kid who can't swim into the water and then be like, get him, guys! like There's something very natural about these scenes and it's ah each of them actually serves the purpose of the story later on down the road and not in tremendous payoffs, but it helps us understand the characters a little bit better when we start to break them off and separate into smaller groups. We have a better idea of who each of these kids is like Alfred, the peeping Tom.

Speaker: You know, when he it whittles down to him being one of the final ones. So I really like that element of the story as well. We have that urban legend of Cropsey being great. We know that villain like you mentioned. We know that villain at the very beginning. He is not a mystery to us and we know he's coming for these kids. And then it attaches us to the kids. And then, like you said, 45 minutes in the shit hits the fan.

Speaker: And that is like what makes this movie that much better. I think it leans into Alfred Hitchcock's saying about suspenses knowing that there's a bomb under the table and waiting for it to go off. We know Cropsey's out there, we know he's coming for the kids, and we are just waiting for it to go off, which is why the raft scene feels so explosive.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And I think with the story too, even like Alfred being a peeping Tom in the shower, like people, you know, looking at Sally, it still feels like, like the summer camp thing to do, especially in the eighties. You know what I mean? It doesn't feel, I know it's like looking back, you're like, that's kind of a piece of shit thing to do. He's, he's weird. You know, the, the reaction from everybody is pretty justified, but like, I would have been shocked if nobody did that. I mean, the showers are wide open. Anybody can peer in. Somebody's bound to do it. You know what i mean?

Speaker: So it's like, you know and even there's little moments like when alfred gets pushed into the water by glazier but then glazier gets pushed back in by the girls that just kind of feel so fun and back and forth and it feels more like uh hey do your thing and we're just going to kind of shoot and yeah let you capture having fun it feels that way more than it really does your teeth does every kid being punk asses at camp you know yeah especially One of my favorite examples of that, Chris, is when they're doing the the canoe water fight thing that they're doing. And the very final shot of that, one of the boats actually sinks. yeah And a couple of them look like directly at the camera and the people behind it. And they just left that in. But it's such a moment of like... They were just having fun doing this and it shows. So I love that. So when it comes to rating the score or scoring the scoring the story, and then we'll get into talking about these characters a little bit, because I think the characters are a little bit better than the story itself for this film.

Speaker: So scoring the story for this, I'm going to ah, ah I want to give it a four because I think the story is slightly better than most slashers, but am I rating it on a movie scale or a slasher scale? So I got to say, i think I'm going to go a three. I think the story is good.

Speaker: So this was the first time for me. i was not aware of this film. So, I mean, i've I've already seen, you know, Friday the 13th and Sleepaway Camp was one of my big ones in my early teens. So seeing this now so late in the game, ah it was hard for me. i felt like I wasn't maybe giving it enough credence here with my scoring, but I feel kind of the same with you, Tim. I'm sitting at a three as well. Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, I went I think I went three. i mean, it's funny scoring all the stuff in this movie. It was all kind of like middle of the road, but it doesn't if it like I still love it. It doesn't matter. Like there's nothing about it. That's, you know, like I mean, it is exemplary in a way. But, you know, when you break it apart and look at all the individual pieces, I don't feel like anything necessarily is like, oh, my God, other than the effects. And also, I think that might be the longest.

Speaker: ah fire flame suit at up until that time. Yeah, I think it was until Maniac Cop. ah yeah ah yeah Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker: yeah it's um I'm going to go with mostly because I wish structurally more of the genre followed suit with this as opposed to Friday the 13th. So going based on story structure, meaning it is patient. It does have this kind of build up to, like you mentioned, an explosion of violence. um I'm going to go with a four.

Speaker: All right. All right. Perfect. Uh, I do think, and to bring up what Sean said, like, yeah, we kind of locked into this yeah scoring category years ago when I started this, cause I wanted to give weight to why we give something five stars. I wanted to put some.

Speaker: Thought behind that other than like, yeah, it feels like, and I know everybody has their own way, but that's how it kind of started. But then that is why we have the enjoyment being twice as much as everything else. Because I think enjoyment has more to do with how well a movie is received than necessarily the story itself. So like Sean was saying, the story might not be revolutionary, but the enjoyment of this movie is very high. And so that that makes up for it to me. So diving into the character, one of the first things I notice about this film

Speaker: is It is unlike, checking my notes here. It is unlike a lot of other slashers at the era where the final girl dominates.

Speaker: it It avoids that. And we have Todd, and he carries from the opening scene to the climax of the film. And i I'm sure there are other slashers out there that do it, but I can't really think of one. Typically, that opening scene is like a hook.

Speaker: And then we dive into the story and meet who our final person's going to be. So even like Friday the 13th part two, we pick up with the survivor from one and she's killed off and has nothing to do at the end. So

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, Travis always gives me a hard time for my writing system. ah But I like that about it. We also have, he's got this kind of guilty arc of knowing knowing what he did to Cropsey and being a part of that, but then also he tells a campfire story to the kids as if he had nothing to do with it and he's totally innocent. Just tell him the story to that. You also I'm sorry. Can I just say? Yeah. Where did they get ah a worm eaten severed head? Like where did they could have dug it up?

Speaker: But it is that in and of itself. And think it's impressive. I had I glossed over that on previous viewings, but i'm I paused it. I'm like, this is it's not like a sculpture. It looks like they robbed a grave.

Speaker: Yeah, it looks like that it looks like the cover of ah ah Zombie, right? that can't Yeah, the cannibal ah the cannibal film. I can't think of one. Cannibal Holocaust. That's the one. I said they dug it up from a Staten Island beach.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, Dust proving Staten Island. My brain was thinking during... Because I've seen this movie so many times. During the opening scene, when he is when he lights the match to light the candles in the eyes, he does it in the box. yeah And I, for about five minutes, wondered how he got the angle or how the head was angled for him to do that. in Because it looks pretty tight in the...

Speaker: So I was like, how the fuck did he get them? Like, how? Why did he do it? Like, why do you take it out? That's just what my brain was doing. You know what I mean? I was like, what's happening here? We also, i think one of the other character arcs that there's a lot of character arcs. We can probably talk about each one of them uniquely. ah but Alfred is our other big character arc in this one. And he starts off as our unlikable creep, basically spying on girls in the shower. I think, yeah, I think he's a sexual pervert.

Speaker: ah He's a deviant. think, I think he is supposed to be younger than the guy portraying him. yeah i yeah If you think about the character, his dialogue, what he's doing...

Speaker: It sounds like 14 to 16, maybe, but the kid playing him is clearly older than that. And that makes it weirder. Uh, I mean, not justifying it for a 14 year old, just saying it would fit the character a little bit better. Uh, but he kind of starts as this unlikable creep and instead of being just like kicked out,

Speaker: He kind of becomes a sympathetic figure towards the end who is trying to save some people. And it's just this trajectory you don't really expect from him when you first meet him. And then we follow him along and instead of sending him home, uh,

Speaker: I believe it's Todd. Yeah, Todd has the idea of like, hey, this kid doesn't get along with other, or like doesn't have many friends. He's kind of the outcast, everybody thinks he's creeped. He gets them connected with other campers and attempts to make friends for this kid. And then as it goes along, there could be better scenes of exploring that dynamic that we don't get.

Speaker: But that's what they're trying to do, and that's how he becomes a little bit more of a sympathetic character towards the end. So I i think that is a very unique trajectory for a character in any slasher, to go from the unlikable creep to one of our final characters. And I think I read in my research that he was supposed to die at the end.

Speaker: Oh, interesting. And they change that. Yeah, he... I mean, i don't really... he he sort of stays like a... ah what's What's the word I'm looking for? Just kind of like a weaker character the whole entire time. like he He almost feels like he was brought along just to be the reason that Todd has to go rescue him, which then forces him to confront Cropsey. And I do feel like...

Speaker: there is missed opportunity to really open up this character a little bit more. You know, it does kind of feel like maybe that idea was there and they just kind of had to move on from it and they couldn't really focus on it as much. yeah I feel bad for him mostly just because he like from the get go is shown to be like a sexual pervert in the words of Michelle. They he can't swim and he gets push in the water.

Speaker: uh and then dude honestly out of every death in this movie he gets the most painful thing done to him can you imagine having the shears yeah deep enough cutting you that it's holding your arm against the wall like that it's like a paper cut in a movie where people get heads cut off you're like ah paper cut yeah so i don't really see him as much as having an arc more than i see him as like the sad puppy that we're forced to kind of follow along with the whole time you know let's That's fair. ah I will say, i do think that ending for him particularly doesn't it fit the character of Cropsey. I think when they changed it they... It makes no sense that he doesn't kill him. He just pins him there. It makes no sense. Precisely. He kills everybody...

Speaker: Rapidly, quickly, in literally seconds, except Alfred, who he pins to the wall. It doesn't make any sense. So I can, you can tell when you tell me that that's a rewrite and Alfred was supposed to die. I'm like, yeah, because it doesn't make sense.

Speaker: So i'm with I'm with you on that one. i wonder like we Were they hoping he was supposed to just be like, with were they using him to bring Todd in? Because he hears him yelling for Todd and he hears him looking for him. we think so. Yeah.

Speaker: Alfred's a weak little bitch, so he knows he's not going to fight back. And he knows Todd is one of those bastards that got him caught on fire in the first place with his prank. So he's like, I'm going use you as bait. Then we'll bring Todd I'm going kill his ass. I'm going to come back for you, you little bitch.

Speaker: Yeah, but they don't even establish that like he's personally after Todd. like Yes, that would help. Or that he knows who he is, right? He hasn't seen him since he was a little. And also, he wouldn't have necessarily even seen him the night that it happened. I'm sure the dynamic of the camp that you know that season, he probably had a pretty good idea who was involved. But also, Todd, isn't Todd the one that's kind of younger and they kind of have to goad him a little bit?

Speaker: At the beginning? ah No, he he's in it right away. Like when the flashlight comes on him, he's like, all right, yeah, this is the time. Let's get him. There is another character that's a little blonde guy with glasses. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: yeah Now he's pretty in it right away. It is kind of hard to tell because I don't think the kid character at the beginning looks anything like Todd later. So it's kind of hard to tell which one It actually looks more like Alfred.

Speaker: Yes. I thought so. Five years later. thought so too. ah There's also, we get charactered character arcs, even though they're not positive arcs. I love Grazer's in this movie. Grazer's a dick. He gets what he gets.

Speaker: It's so funny to hear him at the beginning talking to, there's so many characters. I don't remember their names. I don't remember all of them. Um, but he's talking to that girl and he's like, I'm going to show you a good time. It's going to be great. Come on. alley Yeah. Yeah. You know, you want to, you know, you want to, and then it finally happens at the end and she's like, that was it. That was it.

Speaker: He goes, what does he say? he goes what it weeks He goes, are you cold? And she goes, yeah, well, you didn't do anything really to warm me up. was So awesome. I was like, yeah, but she feels bad for him. So she's like, you know, maybe we can hang out and try again. you know, you know, so but it's such that is like a character argue you don't expect for him.

Speaker: And I love it because it humbles and humiliates this billy this bully character yeah in such a unique way. It's not being put down by somebody bigger than him or whatever. It is him literally having to live up to the standard he set for himself and failing. And I think that is so unique for that character. I love that little element about it.

Speaker: It's almost like... Go ahead, Sean. He actually looks like it wasn't somebody that bullied me. But that when I was in in like grade school, junior high, there was a kid. he looks just like him. And it was um ah literally I watch this movie. I'm like, my God, it's that guy. Like, he looks like him. He talks like him. He acts like him. And he was a bully to some people. So that always just yeah so i thought gratifying.

Speaker: I thought he looked like he could be related to the guy who plays Buffalo Bill. Hmm. oh So okay I actually looked it up to see if they were. I think what I like is that it's kind of like the like the the reality of like you tough on the outside, but kind of he's a weakling behind closed doors. I mean, he does kind of get you know shot down by ah I forget his name that runs the camp. um But, you know, when he said.

Speaker: No, is that, is that, oh yeah, it is Todd. Yeah. I forgot. Yeah. yeah And yeah. Todd tells him, um, you know, like, like you never, like the problem is you never bully anybody the same size. Yeah. like Yeah. yeah But then it's actually even more demasculating to see his, uh, lack of sexual prowess. i come You can't even get that right, dude. Come on, man. Well, I thought it was pretty awesome, though, after Glazer pushes Alfred into the water and swims off, how Costanza and the plague hold up for him, and they get a BB gun and shoot him in the ass. And then the girls see what's going on, and they know that Glazer's being a dick. And then What's-Her-Face, who is ah from National Lampoon's European Vacation, she pushes his ass in the water. and oh my gosh. gets shot the ass.

Speaker: i It's a crazy. Like so what Paul said in the chat earlier, man, cast a who's who's like, hey, it's that guy. There's a lot of it. I was so surprised by that in this film. Forgot about that. I think my favorite arc of all of these. So it was kind of brought up already. Thanks, Travis. um My favorite arc of all of these is that George Costanza is so traumatized by what happens here. He blocks it all out. stays in New York, changes his name, and befriends Seinfeld and has a long nine successful years being ah being who he is on Seinfeld. I actually i watch Seinfeld every night, so watching this one, I always forget that he doesn't die in this movie because I expect him to because he's

Speaker: He's Jason Alexander. i'm like, oh, he's gonna die. And so every time I watch it, I'm like, oh yeah, he lives. And so he can go on, like, just in my head, the character continuity is there because he kind of plays the same character.

Speaker: His character in this movie is the same character. Less neurotic, though. He's not neurotic, though. Less. yeah He actually seems like he's kind of a cool guy. and like He's got that thing that I... like The younger kids kind of defer to him on certain things. you know and he's Picking up the porn. And the rubbers.

Speaker: It's the camp experience that traumatized him and caused him to have the neurosis. Yes! einfeld yeah Oh my god, the porn for... the You got my hustler? yeah you got my hustler? Oh, and he keeps referring to that one kid. is it Woodstock as like the fucking wank champion or whatever?

Speaker: Yeah, jerk-off champion. He needs his vitamin E, which do any of you know what that has to do with? What does, I'm going to Google it. I was thinking about it earlier. What does vitamin E have to do with- Careful how you Google that, man. Yeah, vitamin E related to- Jerking it. You guys- Yeah, go ahead. Just making it, whatever. I'm surprised though to see Fisher Stevens as Woodstock. And I'm like, oh shit, it's the plague from hackers. Like, okay. That's- Yep.

Speaker: Yep. It's like with that first shot on the lake, yeah when you see all of them and it's like, or on the ball field, like, Holy shit, it's that guy, it's that guy, it's that guy, like Paul was saying. I did not expect to see Fisher Stevens. I didn't expect, there's so many faces.

Speaker: I'm like, holy shit, man. But arcs, man, yeah, a lot of, maids it's hard to have arcs for too many people because so many people got killed. I felt bad for Sally getting slaughtered in the woods after that unsatisfying experience with Glazer. What a way to go! Poor girl, man. Never got to have like any peak enjoyment. Just sadness.

Speaker: Yeah, there's not a lot of arcs outside of Alfred and Glazer. I mean... it's It's sort of like, you don't yeah, and Todd, you don't really need too much. If you can give me two or three good ones that just kind of like make me really fall in love with those characters, I'm good. It almost feels like if this was made in 2026, every character would have like a traumatic arc that would lead back to Cropsey in some way, and it's too much.

Speaker: It's overbearing, you know what I mean? yeah um is some room it's It's amazing how many people actually live I mean, because I don't feel like this is one of those movies that like cheaps out on the body. And it's that raft scene is just so I mean, I know everybody talks about it, but it really it really is the way this is is paced is just fantastic because you get the beginning with the the burning and then you get the the, you know, the kill with the sex worker and then you get all that. Like you guys were saying earlier that like 45 minutes or whatever, and you get a couple of teases like with the baseball.

Speaker: But it never is one of those. i know. I mean I can't give you a title off the top of my head, but I know recently I've watched a movie where I was like, OK, I got a crappy kill up front. And how long has it been? And I'm feeling it like I never feel it here. And then we get this huge like, you know, it almost feels it's a massacre.

Speaker: It's a massacre and it almost feels like the, what do they call it? Like the the third real body dump. I think Stephen Graham Jones might've coined that term, but instead it's like, no, it's not the third real. It's like, I mean, it's just such a huge scene and then there's still more death, but it's just, it's paced so interestingly because then yeah, like a bunch of people actually make it out and yeah yeah you don't feel like it's, I don't know. It just feels natural.

Speaker: When Steve and I covered this on our podcast, we talked about how it feels like two different movies were made. It feels like they were trying to make a summer camp movie, which really like the middle of the movie is really that they did a really good job. It always feels like this could be like ah almost like a meatballs ass. Yeah. you know Yes. It holds up with summer camp sex comedies.

Speaker: yeah it does and then the beginning and the end are treated like a horror movie and i think that works best because they feel separate but you enjoy both of them so much it just like most of the time the problem is the middle run when you're going from that first to second act uh can just drag because you don't care about what's going on you know in this they do bring up you know alfred the peeping tom glazier's the bully they bring up enough interesting little aspects i even like ah I even like Eddie and i forget her name. I think Eddie and Karen, how Karen is sort of scared. She's talking to Michelle about how she's sort of scared of Eddie. She keeps coming back. So it's kind of like these micro dramas that you're interested in because we know all these characters now. And we're like, ooh, how are they going to keep this going? So then when the kills start, you're you're you're just remaining interested and it works. So well it's really thought out in a way that you're not expecting, you know?

Speaker: Teenage drama. You mentioned... yeah You mentioned there is that one. I think it's Eddie. i He is the one. Yes, Eddie, who after his little scene that I am like waiting for Cropsey to get him. He's the moment that I'm like, all right, you POS, let's go. Cropsey's going to get you.

Speaker: Forcing himself on her. He's been an ass in the water. Jesus Christ. But i think I think characters are what this movie does better than necessarily reinventing the slasher plotline. I think where this movie shines is having memorable characters. I might not remember their names because there are a lot of them. yeah There are a lot of them and they're kind of thrown at us at the beginning.

Speaker: And then they dwindle off. And that's hard for me to remember. Names are just a weakness. um But I think this is one of the areas that this movie shines. So when I'm thinking characters for this one, I think the characters in this movie, and I think their arcs, whether it is a negative arc or a positive arc or whatever, who they are at the end is changed and affected by the events that happen in this film because for every single one of them. Even, Sean said, so many people survive. When we see the shots of them crying after finding their friend's body parts, and then having to clean off the raft and use it to get back to camp.

Speaker: that's likes That That is brutal and tragic. And I think this movie, yeah it could ramp up the tragedy of that, of having to sit on the vessel their friends were killed.

Speaker: But I think it's subtle enough, and it does it. If you're paying attention... they remove their dead friends bodies and get on that thing to save themselves and that is brutal i think the character arcs in this movie are one of the highlights of this film so i actually i have no problem giving the character arcs in this one a five because it's more memorable than many of the other slashers that i've seen

Speaker: I think that's fair. i i don't I don't remember when I filled the thing out and I submitted it. I didn't really keep track, but I think I gave it a four. um And yeah, it's the characters are what make the movie.

Speaker: so Yeah, I'm going to go with a five. There's a moment when, towards the end of the movie, when... ah Catherine, is it Catherine? Oh my God, I'm so bad with, yeah, no, Michelle. When Michelle gets back to the main camp after everybody just, all the survivors got on the raft and she's talking to, I finally found that character's name and I thought he had a name, but he's just listed as supervisor.

Speaker: Oh, the older guy. The one older guy. The older guy, yeah. The man in charge. He's just listed as supervisor. When she gets back to the camp and yells at him, she says something like, where's the phone? Outboard, I think. Or the outboard. Yeah, where's the outboard? And she goes, there's a killer. And she runs up. She goes, there's a killer out there. And he goes, what the hell are you talking about? she goes, just look at these kids. And the camera shows the survivors.

Speaker: coming off of the raft and walking up as if these kids had just been to war. Like, they look war-torn, you know? yeah And I think this is a movie that's really, really, really focused on building great characters and the impact that the events have on the characters. So therefore, I think that there's plenty of room here for analysis of most of the characters' movements or, like, their progressions and their place in the story. So i I'm going to go with a five.

Speaker: Man, I can't give it as high a marks as you guys on that because, I mean,

Speaker: I feel bad saying like Todd, man, like there's, there wasn't much growth. He was still Todd through all of it. It's just, you he just fucking, you know, kicked the bad guy's ass and chopped him in the head with a hatchet and set him on fire. Which a beautiful, beautiful ending to Cropsey. One of the best villain kills ever.

Speaker: That was pretty awesome, but I didn't see much growth. what todd Todd didn't even set him on fire. Alfred did. Yeah, right. Yeah. If anyone had the growth the most, I would say it would would have been Alfred from being just a little perv to being like a survivor who set a bad guy on fire yeah and was was actually liked by people instead of being hated at the end. So it's kind of mid ground for me. So I'm sitting at a three on it.

Speaker: All right. And I. and i ah The interesting thing, I agree, Travis, ah the interesting thing about this movie, will since we already talked about the story, was that the whole premise and story for this was done before the first Friday the 13th movie, and then they didn't have enough money, and Friday 13th came out and it was always kind of when it well, not always when it first came out, it was kind of labeled a Friday the knockoff, even though I think this is by far the better made film.

Speaker: This is a superior movie. Most people and dude, I got I get so much shit when I say this. I always claim I always say that Friday the 13th part two is the movie that starts Friday the 13th, right? Like Friday the 13th. There's a lot of there's a lot of great stuff. Friday the 13th part two amplifies it. Friday the 13th part two even inspires Halloween 2. So without Friday the 13th Part 2, Halloween 2 doesn't go on to do what it does. But the burning, the actual plot outline and the the plot outline and the production for the burning all happened before Friday the 13th even entered production.

Speaker: really It just didn't come out until after Friday the 13th did. damn so the burning is the original concept. If you want to look at a timeline, Friday the 13th was just a movie that took off.

Speaker: Right. Yeah. So I actually credit the burning with inspiring more of the genre. Then Friday the 13th, but I can't really settle on that because it's the lesser known. So there was less people to see it and try to copy it. You know what i mean?

Speaker: Yeah. fun stuff that we'll get into when we get to the cultural significance about this movie. But first we have the music in, or Sean, you, Sean, you gave yours for, okay, I got them all.

Speaker: Um, music and sound design. So I just realized this. I don't know how I didn't notice it. Um, I knew I recognized the name Rick Wakeman, but he was the keyboardist of yes. Oh,

Speaker: Which is why the music in this movie is awesome. I love the music in this movie. Says you. What? Says you. Oh, yeah. Says me why it's awesome. I love it. I don't think it's like... I would recognize the burning theme if somebody put it on. i would be like, oh, yeah, that's from the burning.

Speaker: ah But I think it is definitely... a step above a lot of what the other slashers were doing at that time. And I love the story.

Speaker: ah Wakeman was originally offered a percentage of the film's back end gross profits as payment. Wow. But he believed the movie was going to be a flop, so he turned it down and demanded a flat fee. And it turns out he was partially right, and he probably made the better financial decision by taking a flat fee up front.

Speaker: Well, I think when it comes to music, because I have the score for this, I forget who put it out on vinyl. Maybe it was wax work or whatever. And I'm listening to it and it wasn't the most like memorable. But when you watch the movie,

Speaker: It doesn't really utilize the score for much like Friday the 13th. They, you know, Manfredini and Sean Cunningham really found the way to use the score to build suspense and stuff. The burning doesn't like, if you think of the buildup to the raft sequence, there's no music.

Speaker: until the appearance of Cropsey, then the music kicks in. They're they're not using the music as a as a tool to tell the audience how to feel.

Speaker: It kicks in at impact. And I do think when it kicks in, what's on screen is so engrossing that the music just meshes with it so well and there's no standout to it. So a lot of times I forget there's even music playing. Even today when I watched it, I just sat here and I was like, I'm trying to think of a musical cue.

Speaker: And it's when he jumps out of the raft, but I don't remember what it sounded like. Cause i was so focused on a bunch of kids getting slaughtered on the raft. Yeah. Well, and I'll tell you what I love about that musical cue. And if I can remember it correctly, uh, is I feel like at that time, especially Friday the does this when we get those jumps, what do we hear strings?

Speaker: And this movie wasn't strings. This movie was since I thought since I thought, synthesizers. yeah And so it has a different effect when it happened. I agree. I think the music does kind of enhance the scene. It kind of complements the scene really well, because I will say that when I think of the theme for this movie and what I think is so memorable, it is during the opening credits.

Speaker: Like, I, I, because there's not much going on on screen and I'm listening to the music and I'm liking what I'm hearing. But then, yeah, I agree. i i do like that it is not persuading us to feel a certain way before the event happens.

Speaker: It, it's tricky because when movies do that, when they manipulate, like, I have, I have huge issues with Silence of the Lambs and it's, it's a shame because, um,

Speaker: uh what's his name that will always work with k cronenberg howard shore does it and i just feel like it's so overblown it's like i get it it's creepy it's tense can you just bring it and it's not his fault right this is i'm sure was directed to some degree um so i get irritated when when movies try to use the music to completely manipulate me it's like you should be able to accent it but i don't need you to to tell me But it this movie, it all it does kind of just disappear.

Speaker: And the one scene that sticks out, there's a couple, but and this is something I kind of have trouble with from some of these 70s, 80s movies, that the banjo music, like during the you know the fun, bluegrass, it reminds me so much of the original My Bloody Valentine where like I have the score for that. And it's like, there's a bunch of like light FM shit on it. you know It's like,

Speaker: I understand why it's there, but it doesn't necessarily make for a solid, cohesive experience where you look at like what Carpenter was doing and it's like he's making a solid, cohesive sonic experience as well you know lot to go alongside and accent his visual experience. and That's not what this is, but it i would I would actually really like to... to listen I've never listened to this score. I have a lot of scores, and this is not one...

Speaker: I think, Chris, I feel like it is wax work, but I don't think it's been available for like a long time. It's been out. um I know it is on YouTube.

Speaker: I'm gonna have to listen because even, like, I'll just listen sometimes, you know, to stuff that I, like, would this make a good vinyl purchase? Because, you know, you might love a movie, but maybe the score doesn't, exactly you know, I don't know, I'd be curious to hear the music stand on its own.

Speaker: And I agree with what you're saying, with, like, Howard Shore drives me nuts with the use of music, and Cronenberg, because it's it's over top of scenes that that doesn't need it, and it feels overpowering, like, So really I like his stuff with Cronenberg by and large, yeah but it's the real science. The lambs is just really just it's so over the top, but it's 90s and it's big studio and that's what they did. Right.

Speaker: hmm. Yeah. Yeah. yeah What I'm seeing is that vinyl is sold out everywhere. Yeah. i it There's got to be a repress at some point because, I mean, I feel like i subscribe to Waxworks, like, I want to say it was 2016 was the first time I did. i hit i was like an annual, they had that record club thing. I did that for like two years. um But,

Speaker: I think in all the time I've kind of kept my eye on what they put out, that has not been available. So I'm thinking that's got to be like 2015, 2014. Travis. Get out here. Jeez, Travis. Come on, Travis. It's weird that nobody... actually...

Speaker: I actually don't like... So I'm not a big vinyl fan. I know this is going on a side tangent. I'm not the biggest vinyl fan. I actually prefer CDs. And it drives me nuts it's that companies won't put more records on CDs. but Yeah, they won't, right?

Speaker: If you go on eBay and stuff, occasionally you can find really good quality like custom CDs for scores. And I have one for the burning. It was like $10 on eBay. They took the Waxwork Records vinyl art, put it onto a sleeve in a jewel case, put art on the CD and it's full, like as high quality as I can. And I listen to that more because my CD set up is just higher quality than vinyl setup is. Yes. But to me, that's my preferred way of listening. So I will look out for things like that. And you can find that and especially for scores like the burning where nowadays I wouldn't pay $45 for a record of this, you know, as opposed to $20 I paid years ago. So

Speaker: I'd pay 50 for chopping mall, chopping mall vinyl. I love that. shopping ma That's why I didn't get my buddy Valentine from terror vision. It was like $50. I'm like, there's no fucking way I'm paying this. There's no way. The vinyl thing too has become ridiculous in that. Um, and I, it's continuing the tangent, but I'll let it drop. Um, black phone too.

Speaker: I love Derek. Um, um, Is this Scott Derrickson? No, way his son, Atticus Derrickson's score for, I mean, I love it. And I i pre-ordered the the wax.

Speaker: The first side, it's two two discs. The first side is five minutes long. I'm like, fuck you. Like seriously, five minutes long. Five minutes long. No. Like it yeah destroys the listening experience. Are there all yeah are there all four sides that have music?

Speaker: Yes, but yes but not they're not all five minutes long, but that first side, and it's just, it's it's freaking ridiculous. No, just do what, like the new Coheed and Cambria album had. It's a double disc, but the first three sides are music.

Speaker: And then the fourth side is just like, weird atmosphere noises. And so like, yeah, you put the music up front. Don't don't make the first side five minutes. That's how I felt about obsession, because I was going to buy the vinyl for obsession because I love that score until you realize that every song, every track is only like a minute and 10 seconds.

Speaker: Yep. I listen to that. Every track cuts off exactly like it does in the movie. And and I actually emailed Waxworks about that one because I was like, hey, you know, because they have a little thing when you're looking at like you email us questions. I'm like, just curious, is this going to be like the Black Phone 2 soundtrack? Nobody responded to me. But I'm like, I'm serious because I'm listening to the thing on Apple Music. Every track is like a minute. And like you said.

Speaker: yep No. Uh-uh. yeah So I will say when it comes to soundtracks, I love it when I can find a good soundtrack. If I can find it on vinyl, awesome. I have the soundtrack on vinyl for Wheelie Walkin' on the Chocolate Factory and A Clockwork Watch.

Speaker: hell Those are phenomenal. so But when it comes to this ah this this movie, it did it all just kind of fades out. Even even the theme at the beginning is the most memorable part of the score in this film, but even then still doesn't really stick in my mind.

Speaker: um so that that music for this one was really tough one but i will also say since we're on music and we're doing the burning wonderful coincidence i'm wearing a shirt for flames yeah But yeah, the man, the music just, it it really fell hard on its face for me in this movie, man. like Aside from the the opening theme, the rest of it just kind of falls out, drowns out, and just disappears for me and does not really catch me. And I barely catch it at the end for the end credits. And it's just like, all right, well, it's pretty much nonexistent for me in that way. Do you guys prefer music to be this way where it fits so well you don't hear it? Or would you rather it be like if you're watching, um if you're watching Drive and the music is almost a character in the story or you're watching ah it Follows where ah the music is like an element of the story and it stands out.

Speaker: Do you prefer when you can pick up on the music or would you rather the music just kind of become a part of it and you never even notice it? I want it to have some prominence in certain parts. want yeah I want it to be noticeable in certain moments, especially when it's a high tension moment or if it's deep sorrow for a very strong, powerful moment. I do want there to be something there that's going to catch my attention to help enhance that moment for me and to make me feel something even more. But I don't get that in this film with this soundtrack. understand. Yeah. Okay. I just wanted to ask.

Speaker: I agree with Travis. I think for me, it depends on the movie. What is the atmosphere that the movie is going for? Because the music has a lot to do with your atmosphere. So like if I'm watching Star Wars music is noticeable.

Speaker: You know, I recognize Star Wars music and I think it enhances the story of Star Wars. But would I want Star Wars music stuck in the burning? Absolutely not. You know, it does. It just depends on the vibe.

Speaker: Cause I think there are some things where a minimalist soundtrack is enhancing the vibe. And in other times, I think those grand orchestral moments enhance the vibe. So I do think it depends movie to movie to me. i do know there are things I don't like typically just like the, I feel like it happens a lot lately where it's just kind of like droning ambient noise in movies. I hate that. I give me either take it away or give me something.

Speaker: I think I think the best example of where that works is something like um like heat where it's almost like a tick. tick tick or like Christopher Nolan with Hans Zimmer does it a lot in his movies where it's um like a don a metric. It's almost like a metronome the whole time going that I like. But when it's just kind of like a groan, yes, the whole that's it. This doesn't do it for me.

Speaker: No. And then you go to listen. You do? I do, but it depends on the movie too. I think the best example right now that I can think of of a filmmaker and a a musical collaborat consistent musical collaborator, Joe Beagles and Steve Moore,

Speaker: Every score Steve Moore does, it I listen to them all the time. I've got everyone on vinyl. I listen to them constantly. And when you watch the movie, it's there. It's a character. But it also isn't manipulating you necessarily. like It just lays in perfectly but still has its own identity. i I absolutely love it. I do want to say, though, who just commented, the Sinister the sinister score on its own is fucking incredible. like Yeah, it Separate it from the movie, and it gets even better. It is fucking wild score.

Speaker: It's insane, dude. I haven't seen that movie yet, so I don't know. You haven't seen Sinister? I don't believe I have. Well, now I need to listen to the score because I never really thought about the score for that one. All right. Well, let's score the score for The Burning.

Speaker: So I actually i know I gave it high praise. I do like it, but I do agree with the criticisms. Is it criticism or compliment? I think we were just debating that it.

Speaker: supports the moment instead of stands above the moment. And so therefore it kind of gets lost in the action. Um, I, I do agree that certain scenes just aren't memorable as far as music goes, but I did give it a three. I thought it was good.

Speaker: Ooh, I, I, I had to go down on that. I had to go to two on this one.

Speaker: I might be swayed cause I liked the band. Yes. So, I'm just to stick down the middle and go with a three because it's, if you do listen to it on its own, it is an interesting, it does have interesting bits to it, but I do love that I barely notice it or like I can tell you when the music starts and stops, which kind of to me works. um So I just stick with a, it's more of like a 2.8, but I round up to like a three.

Speaker: Okay. I think I gave it a three too. It's, it's, he did you know, nothing special. There are some moments that like, not the banjo moment. I mean, that just kind of, i i I did notice on this one, watching it, because we're going to be talking about it, I paid attention to the credits, and that had a different composer. The banjo, it says bluegrass music composed by... Completely different person for that scene.

Speaker: That makes sense. not that pardon like I'm sure Rick Wakeman could handle it. you know like pun Part of me was... Part was like, was that scene added later to help hit the 90 minute mark? And Rick was already done. And they're just like, hey, can you whip this together? And I don't know. I don't know. I do wish. i do wish every movie from the 80s had the My Bloody Valentine original song at the end, though.

Speaker: I do wish that have, you know mean? Like that would have helped it stand out if all of a sudden a Cropsey themed, you know, country song began playing at the end. You mean like we have today where Ice Nine Kills is going to play over your closing credits? Yeah, please, please no. Please somebody else.

Speaker: All right. Let's talk about the the Titan category for this film. ah The editing and special effects. So who, you can take it away. Somebody wants to gush about it first. Go ahead.

Speaker: All right, i'm gonna no I'm gonna take it away from the raft scene because I'm sure that's gonna be a discussion on its own. And I'm gonna talk about, well, A, I think it's fascinating at at the difference in Tom Savini's work from Friday the 13th to this only a year later, how much of an improvement there is.

Speaker: But there is a brief moment in the scene where he kills Karen. that's This is the throat slit that I love so much. And it's the cut of the throat and then it's the camera like slowly panning down her chest. Yeah. As like the dark red blood just kind of covers all the skin. Yeah. i remember I remember listening to an interview with him. I believe it might have been in the Document of the Dead documentary. And he talks about how there's a lot of good.

Speaker: uh like special effects artists out there and it really depends on the relationship with the director and making sure that they can work with the director on how to shoot the effects best and i think the burning is a fucking perfect example of how to shoot these effects because you're not seeing a whole lot of like, you know, it's not focusing on the detail of like the flesh underneath the throat or anything, but it it just everything is so bloody and it's so gruesome. And I love what the camera decides to focus on. It's not a cut. It's not like a close up of the neck appliance getting torn open. It's actually a little bit distorted because his hand is over her mouth and the cut kind of happens underneath. I just fucking love every kill in this movie.

Speaker: Well, I appreciate like how they use the natural lighting during those scenes when he cuts her throat with the shears and when Eddie and her are out there in the skinny dipping with the natural light. But I wish when he'd cut her throat, I wish it had been a little bit lighter that you could have seen it a bit better with how he cut her in the bleeding. Did you? It was still little dark for me, like the tone, like everything just it wasn't light enough.

Speaker: This is the few times that I would praise the 4K, the transfer on the 4K. I would agree, Chris. Really ups it a lot. yeah oh It's lot more visual than ever been. Yeah. I watched it on Tubi, so it was just like... Tubi is very dark. Yeah. Damn, man. I'm just going lighten it up so I can see the the blood trickle more.

Speaker: yeah Yeah, I would agree. i would agree with Chris on that one. I do think the 4K restoration of it helps that scene out. It helps all of the dark scenes in this movie significantly. I think it looks great.

Speaker: i i agree. That one... That kill specifically, Chris, was one of the more emotional reactions that I get to a slasher film, period. Because it's kind of a character that we had grown to like. She had just been abused by...

Speaker: a guy she wasn't sure about basically. And we're sympathetic towards her. And then when she dies, it's not a quick Friday the 13th, here's what happened, slit throat cut, and we don't see her again.

Speaker: We stayed there and watched... the blood dripped down her body as she realized what was happening. And it was just, it was more emotional than your typical quick cut. ah And I think that was, like like you brought up, I think it was Tom Savini talking about Friday the 13th, about how like the best scenes are directed by the special effects guy, basically. And so I do i do agree with that as well. And that's kind of what I watch for.

Speaker: But to, I'll dive in. I mentioned Cropsey's kill, I think is brutal and not the fire, not just the fire, but when that ax goes through his head and blood just spews out of it, like that was more intense than a lot of final kills that I've seen in slasher films.

Speaker: i I like that. I also just like lingering. on the body while it's on fire. Like, i know it's a du I know it's a dummy, but we just sit there and we watch it burn for so long. Gross. Which could go back to the fire effect at the very beginning, which goes on for so long.

Speaker: And if I were to pick a favorite moment in the raft scene, there is something about that girl getting sliced across the forehead.

Speaker: That almost makes me ill. like that just that That brutal chop at the end. like She was already injured and he just boom across the forehead. i was like, there's something ah about that one that is uniquely fingers. Seen it before. Neck. Those are all cool effects.

Speaker: Yeah, Fisher Stevens. Those are all cool effects that we've seen. Splitting the forehead. that That one's unique to me. Well, I can't remember. do Is there a directing category or is it just editing?

Speaker: Direction. Yeah, we have a direction. There there is a direction. ok because in the editing category, I love just to take it back to the Karen scene real quick. I love when she gets out of the water and realizes her clothes aren't there.

Speaker: And the camera does this really interesting thing where it like shows she's looking for her clothes and then it does like these handheld run ups on like an article of her clothing. and wagging And then, yeah, then it cuts back to her and then it cuts to like a shirt. It almost gives you like the Evil Dead handheld like run up. yeah but It does it three times to kind of show that somebody had scattered it But it still doesn't make you think that potentially she's going to die because you get the music and there's brief little shots and then there's we're back to nothing again.

Speaker: And she's just looking for it. So we know. But leading up to the raft scene, there's something really interesting that happens when we cut to them on the raft and they're, they're ah you know, they're kind of paddling away.

Speaker: They actually drop the frame rate to give the movie a crazier, like more frenetic look, which you can see. They do it twice in the movie. They do it when... um The one girl emerges from the field in the baseball scene in the beginning. They drop the frame rate when she comes out. And then they drop the frame rate as soon as we cut to the raft sequence to give it just a little bit more of like a frenetic energy. But I also like how you kind of get these mini dramas that begin to happen on the raft.

Speaker: where like they're tired, circle playing, they're tired. And Eddie's like, shut the fuck up, keep paddling. Like they create these little mini dramas that feel so intense, even though there's no music. So already the energy is so balled up and then they see the raft and like, oh, there it is. And they get closer, no music, closer, no music, closer, closer, no music. We, we stay with this, the, the slow frame rate. And then all of a sudden the explosion of Cropsey popping out, it's, it's brilliant in my opinion. Absolutely brilliant.

Speaker: there's There's an extra on the DVD or the Blu-ray of Jack Shoulder, the um editor, talking about how they kept telling him it's got to be the rat it's got to be longer. They can't get there that fast. And he he was like not understanding.

Speaker: So when when I watched it this time, I watched a bunch of the extras first, and then I watched the movie, and I was like, oh, man. like I hadn't realized how long it actually takes because it just...

Speaker: it It doesn't feel too long. It feels just right. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. ah Absolutely agreed. I wish Jack Shoulder took more advice ah when he went and made, like, Alone in the Dark and stuff, because he went on to eventually direct, like, if he did Alone in the Dark, I think 83 or 84, I think Alone in the Dark came out. And that movie feels so rushed for as much as I enjoy it. I wish he kind of, like, kept the advice that Tony Malum taught him in in the editing of this. I've never seen that, but he talked about how he took the... Yeah, he doesn't. And it made that ah a better movie. So that's interesting. Not that I found, but if he thinks so, I'll power it from, you know.

Speaker: But yeah, this rap scene's out of control, man. I mean, the finger, for me, it's not even the fingers getting lopped off. It's the blood spray. on his face after it happens like it's the little it's even like when they cut to the shears hitting the wood on the rack yeah a random shot where it takes a chunk out of the wood and it sells like it sells that the blade is sharp and that it's real and it's just this little insert shot that and that that that's kind of like a perfect savini moment is like what are you doing to sell the effect that's not showing gore what can we cut to real quick to sell this and it's So genius. And dude, the girl getting slashed in the head is like a final fuck you is oh' so good. dude oh Yeah, I think I gave it a five for effect. You know, the finger thing, it's funny watching the extras first this time.

Speaker: I remembered it, but but I forget who it is that talks about the finger thing and how it must it must be, um what's his name, Finger Stevens. ah But he's like, oh, you know, this is a stupid, like cumbersome you know hand or whatever. And he talks about it. But when you see it, it just it just works. Like, it it just works really well. So.

Speaker: Yeah. yeah great Great effects. I have to ask. um did you mean to call him finger stevens i did that was on purpose okay because that was good that was good i was just trying to like did you okay yeah uh this one we can we can lay into the score for this one i do yeah i'm not gonna go there so The score for this one, don't know how I can give it anything less than a to honest.

Speaker: the score for this one i i don't know how i can give it anything less than a five to be honest Yeah, it's the true standout here. I mean, it's funny how like if you were to boil down how much to time like minute wise is spent on kills, it's probably under two minutes of total screen time, but it makes the rest of the 95 minutes so much better.

Speaker: Yeah. So you're a five, Chris. Oh, yeah. Sorry, I've got that. I thought it was. Yeah, it's a five. I was just confirming. I like the effects and all, but like the the the the dummy for for Woodstock, Fisher Stevens, at the end after girl pearls his arm off the raft, the dummy itself looked a little weak to me.

Speaker: i mean, the rest the effects everything were cool. That's fine. But I mean, it was all right. yeah It worked for what it was. I give it the three on special effects. John, wait till you watch the, if you ever watch the 4K and you see Cropsey go from wearing ah bedtime clothing when he's in bed, you know, and the fire starts and then he runs out and it's a full man wearing like layers and layers of Carhartt. no i saw that yeah and you can see like the helmet like he's got like je over the head and the whole thing like okay yeah he's definitely wearing helmets very obvious so i don't know how true it is i don't any of you who watch the behind the scenes stuff for this i read that that's not a dummy of fisher stevens that's him in makeup really does it look like a dummy it looks like a dummy it does but i read that it's actually him in makeup

Speaker: I don't remember them actually specifically mentioning in the commentary anything about it, so I'm not sure. Huh. So I do i do agree. i It stands out as one of those things that's like, ah yeah, it looks like a dummy, but...

Speaker: What I read is that it was actually Fisher Stevens. so So much of him was sticking out of the water, like bobbing, like it seemed like a, you know, very floating dummy. Yeah. And the look on the face and the way it was just didn't seem effective. he was He was selling the scene, man. Selling the scene.

Speaker: I'm going I'm going to look into it a little bit more, but I think it's a fair criticism because without getting into behind the scenes stuff, you're going to assume it's a, it's a rough dummy unless it really is, ah him and makeup that looks pretty, pretty rough.

Speaker: All right. So we got, we got all of the editing and special effects. Sean, you gave yours? Yeah. Five. Okay. All right. Script then. Let's get into the script.

Speaker: So the script differentiates from the story. How well do they tell the story they're trying to tell? That is how I determine the difference.

Speaker: And I think, like i like I said already, I think there are scenes that could improve upon the story that they're trying to tell a little bit and help flesh out a little bit more of the later arcs of the characters. Like... um Alfred. So like Chris said, you kind of think of him as the sad puppy. And I saw a little bit more of like trying to expose this kid and get friends and some growth out of him. And I think the movie could do a better job of explaining that. I think the movie could also do a significantly better job of explaining how Cropsey goes from leaving the hospital to showing up at this camp specifically and finding the person who hurt him.

Speaker: Specifically, I think we could we spent enough time with Cropsey at the beginning, like, give me something little like a newspaper article about a camp opening up nearby, you know, something that connects how he goes from killing the sex worker to stalking the woods.

Speaker: And we as viewers can kind of fill in the gap, but there's also like, this isn't the same camp. This is a different camp in a different location.

Speaker: So there's a lot of about like, there's a lot of filling in the gaps of what Cropsey's doing. And i we already mentioned it. Does he even realize that that was the kid who was there at the beginning? Or is that just happenstance? These are areas that I think the movie could improve.

Speaker: I think we could have told that a little bit better in the script. The other area I think the script does really well, and I don't know that it was written this way at all, is Like we mentioned, there are a lot of scenes where it just seems like the actors are having fun together.

Speaker: And are they just out there riffing on each other and acting natural and having a good time? Or was it really written to be that convincing? You know, I haven't read the script. I'm sure it's available.

Speaker: So, but I haven't read it to know that for sure. But I think they do a great job with the kids. and their dynamics, I think the script needs help when it comes to establishing why Cropsey is at this specific location later.

Speaker: there's an excellent book, uh, that came out end of last year called screaming and conjuring by Clark Collis. And it explores the ah pretty much the era from scream to like the conjuring. So to our 1996 to 2013, and there's a whole chapter in there that talks about heavily the Weinsteins, like Miramax dimension, kind of the two brothers splitting off and kind of wanting to copy each other. And, And they talk a lot. He talks a lot in that book about how the Weinsteins were notorious for kind of coming in and cutting shit out the script and really messing with the true vision of the writers and directors. And I think had we been able to dive in a little bit more to the burning, I think this would be the first example of that because there's so much here that feels like you're going to get it and it just never...

Speaker: does and it feels like somebody going cut the fat off this shit like we already have enough like who cares just cut it off which is very much in line with the later era kind of Weinstein way of approaching their films so I think the script as far as this ranking system goes is the weakest because it feels like a whole bunch of shit has been chopped out with no explanation so that's kind of where I sit with it Damn, Weinstein's always fucking with shit. They shouldn't.

Speaker: general answers Literally. Literally. Yeah, I'd go three. I mean, yeah I'd go three. It's not anything, you know, it's it's it's serviceable. It's everything else. Just it's a good template or, you know, a good structure for what what we the final product. So it's not anything special.

Speaker: Yep. Yeah. Can we do halves on the ratings or no? You can. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I'm going to 2.5 just because because I do feel like there's so much cut out. I do feel like the the the structure is is is great. There's a lot of good here. It just feels like some of the most ah most interesting character stuff was kind of left behind, and I think that's a script issue and mostly a Weinstein issue because fuck them.

Speaker: You know what i mean? yeah yeah and Yep. I'll give it a three.

Speaker: All right. My computer froze for a second. Yeah, i I gave it a three as well. I just think it's good. And honestly, the three is, like I said, most of it ah is for the camp kid dynamic and the way they interact. I think that stuff is excellent. ah If I'm diving into like getting really nitpicky... Well, let's get that. I'll get that in direction. Tim Pickett? Yeah, I'll get that in direction. But first we have acting.

Speaker: First we have acting. Which I think the acting in this movie is one of the better acted slashers of the early 80s. I think it's pretty fantastic across the board for a summer camp slasher film.

Speaker: I agree. Yeah, I think everyone... i think the characters that are meant to be sympathetic, they come off they are. like Karen is very good in the role. I actually think like the two the older characters, like Todd and ah Michelle, are kind of the most stale. Michelle kind of spends the whole run time yelling to Todd and Todd, even at the realization that that this is Cropsey, just doesn't really do anything more than just stare over a flashback. yeah um But when you get into the kids, or I say kids, the other 35 olds. Cropsey. the 33 three year old yeah yeah i think they they do it like jason alexander is great um i love and what's what's his name that plays uh eddie ned eisenberg think he's great like he's such a douchebag you believe him to be a douchebag you know what i mean um like everybody else i believe them so you know for me across the board it's like a solid three for acting

Speaker: Yeah, same for me. It's three. I mean, there's highlights. There's also moments. I feel like the moment with Todd and Glazer, it's a little rough. But, it you know, it is, it like Tim, like you said, ah among summer camp slashers from this era, it's, you know, possibly um the piano.

Speaker: and I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's good at what it is, you know? So among summer camp slashers, this is the piano. I love that. It took me a second, but I like that comparison.

Speaker: As someone who went to summer camps before cell phones took over, it felt very natural seeing everyone out there doing activities and bullshitting and just being carefree teenagers.

Speaker: You know, it all fit very well. It felt very comfortable. Yeah. having been part of that time in the 80s and 90s. And just like watching those scenes of them playing ball and like everything running around, all this stuff they're doing. i wass like man, nobody does that anymore.

Speaker: Yeah. you Yeah. It was a face stuck into a phone. It's like, damn, I might kind of missed that shit. Made me feel really nostalgic for for the old school camp days. It it does. Even like Friday the 13th, though, like one of my least favorite scenes of that first Friday the 13th is ah the fake drowning.

Speaker: You know, it's like we can't even have a moment where characters just go swimming and have fun in the lake without a character needing to pretend to drown. Yeah. Which is way more of an asshole thing than anybody ever does in this movie. And it just kind of like it it continues to feel like characterture caricatures more than it feels like real people. You know what i mean?

Speaker: Ginny making coffee. Yeah. Oh, my God.

Speaker: Yeah, I mean, Glazer being a punk ass, that felt like, you know, your your average typical bully who's who's coming up, and now they're not in their like their own oppressed environment. They can act out at camp.

Speaker: You know, and you girls who are doing their thing, you know minus the smoking. like i didn't I never saw a girl smoking at camp, but, you know. But then again, it was early 80s, so that's I guess that was a thing back then.

Speaker: That's such a weird moment. They're all, like, passing around the cigarette. Like, what are you doing in here? It's so odd. But yeah, you got your random weirdos running around campgrounds, you got your tough guys, you got your leaders, you know, and everyone seemed like they were playing their part pretty well.

Speaker: Yeah. You know, it worked out pretty good. Yeah, that baseball scene, really, I really feel like that is kind of the heart of those. It's just such a great scene. I don't know. It's ah it's a good way to introduce everything. It really establishes a lot of the character dynamics in one simple scene yeah right away, because we get most of the characters there, not all of them, but but most. And we established that scene with Eddie. And what's her name?

Speaker: Like we get the payoff to this later and we, yeah, we get a lot of that setup. It's a great little, great little scene. i agree. all right. I think we got all those scores in for that one. uh, four, four on acting. Sorry. Okay.

Speaker: I just want to say one more time for the comment about this being a Friday the 13th ripoff. Just a little repeat. this was The Burning was written and shot in production before Friday the thirteenth even was, and it just didn't find distribution until later. So technically, this predates Friday the 13th, but I guess...

Speaker: to the general public, it can seem like, you know, a post Friday the 13th, like a result of Friday the 13th because of that, which I think does this movie more harm than good. You know what i mean?

Speaker: Yeah, I was actually i'm glad you brought that up. I was actually looking on IMDb the production dates. Oh, yes yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: OK. Yay. Direction, my favorite. Yeah, direction. um We mentioned already, so the director of this movie, I had his name and then I got to love so yeah i got distracted by the Friday the 13th stuff. um He was kind of known for doing documentaries before this. and he brought a kind of handheld

Speaker: Aesthetic to this film that I like ah The other thing that I really like about this is you already kind of mentioned he does the evil dead zooms ah And the other scene he does that that I think is super effective Glazer's death when we kind of just track him like back through the woods. Excellent. I love that little bit.

Speaker: If I were to get i this is where I i do have Tim pick a little bit. I think this movie falls off significantly for me in the final act.

Speaker: because we're just following Alfred as he's running around these ruins and he's hiding behind these rocks and then he moves around the other side of the ah the other side of the brick wall. And then this chase scene just goes on for so long. And I feel like they're trying to pad the time, you know, trying to make it hit the 90 minute mark. And I think that's where this movie, that's how I initially felt about the Cropsey scene at the beginning.

Speaker: And then also the third act. I've come around to understanding the Cropsey scene at the beginning a little bit better. The third act, I still just... So many slashers suffer from this.

Speaker: it's It's... I think ah My Bloody Valentine suffers from the chase scene in the third act. This scene suffers from the chase scene in the third act. I just don't personally see much suspense in the chase scene.

Speaker: i don't... like Someone's either going to die or someone's going to live. I'm not super invested in where you're hiding. I'm not invested in all of this unless we raise the stakes a little bit more. Are you trying to save a kid? are you trying like What is something else going on here?

Speaker: So this movie really kind of loses it for me. Basically after Glazer dies, Glazer? Whatever. After he dies, And we're chasing Alfred.

Speaker: And I'm just like, alright, chasing Alfred through the woods. And then I think the highlights of this are when we cut back to the survivors. And we see how it's affecting them. Those little moments in here. But the third act chase scene climactic fight is fine. I think the final like kill of Cropsey is great. But everything building up to that is just like background noise.

Speaker: There's not much dialogue. There's no character development. It is just running around these ruins, avoiding Cropsey, and then Cropsey finds him, and then luring Todd. And I'm just like, okay, all right, like let's move this along.

Speaker: Everything before that, the summer camp stuff, I think is done so well, and I think that's why it's disappointing. I read, i don't know how true it is, that that final scene was not the director. Yeah. who edited it, put that together. The kind of studio has kind of pushed the director out and were like, let's let's edit this a little differently. Fucking Weinstein's. God damn it, dude. It comes right back to what I was saying before. These fuckers were doing this from the jump.

Speaker: Cut too much out and then they had to pad it at the end with bullshit. yeahp It was also supposed to be in the caves, and Savini told the story where they went and scoped out this cave, and they're like, this is perfect. And you can see where they're going to go into the caves, where Alfred like kind of comes across what looks like could end up being the entrance to the cave. But then Savini said when they came back the next day, it had actually caved in. So they were like oh, no, not...

Speaker: Good thing we didn't start. So avoided that. The runes are pretty cool, but I, I, agree it just kind of like, it's, you know, like the runes would have been just as cool with like just a couple of shots and to get to the point. So they're padding for sure. What might've made the runes a little better for me is if those runes had been like the burned remains of camp Blackfoot.

Speaker: yeah you know If it was a full circle moment for Todd and Cropsey, we are back to where you started, your confrontation again, that becomes symbolic. It becomes a little bit of an enhanced final chase scene. Instead of, oh, he found some old mining equipment, a mining settlement, and that's where Cropsey's been hiding. I don't know. it doesn't That final like last ten minutes is my biggest issue with this film.

Speaker: And that is, I feel... I'm being overly critical, but I'm i'm being honest. That's okay. The final 10 minutes don't sell me. It is everything up to that. One of the things about direction is being able to establish location, right? We need to be able to understand where we are. And today was my, i don't know probably 11th time seeing this movie. And still, when we got to the ending, I was like, where the fuck are we?

Speaker: Yeah. Like, What the hell is this? And if you notice, Todd is dressed exactly like Ash from the first Evil Dead, and he's carrying an axe. And I was like, what is that? didn't even think about that. Yeah, he's wearing yeah he's ring the blue button up, the blue denim jeans, and he's got the axe. um Wow. Where's his lady tuxedo?

Speaker: Yeah. Yep. I think we're directing his strongest is something I brought up earlier, which is the dropping of the frame rate during the lead up to the raft scene. I think that's a very strong directorial choice and whether that was him or the cinematographer. But I think my favorite moment of direction is the choice. And this is probably written in the script, the choice to bring the raft back to the survivors when that comes back. is such a like punch in the gut and the fact that like you mentioned earlier tim they have to get back on this and use it the only thing that confuses me is that clearly the they they were paddling upstream right when the raft happened and the raft never came back downstream the like the original canoe never came back downstream A little bit of continuity there. Yeah, just know like how'd that come back with the canoe to end when, you know what i mean? Yeah. um

Speaker: But I think those moments I do love with Eddie and Karen in the in the water. I do love the natural look of the environment. I think the woods look very good. And I don't know where all of you guys are from, but I'm in New Jersey. And this is what these woods look like. I've been to upstate New York into the woods. This looks and feels like upstate New York, East Coast woods. And even the moment, like kind of like to think that the moment of the shot of Sally in the shower, that's sort of a downward angle up is is is showing us like location at the top of the shower is open and you see the trees outdoors. yeah it is yeah and i like to think that's why they did it but then the camera's just enough to show her boobs and you're like okay i see what we're doing it had been 10 minutes into the film and we hadn't had that yet so yeah yeah yeah the weinsteins

Speaker: yeah the wineinsteins a Sorry. I think it's well directed. Like you do have I mentioned earlier that tracking or that that that kind of dolly shot that happens in the girl's cabin where the camera just kind of slowly pans back. I also like the beginning when the they're kind of conceiving their plan for Cropsey. And I love that all the characters are introduced by the flashlight beam.

Speaker: Yeah. Yes. But i never know if that's creative choice or is that just we have no other way to light this. Let's use the the flashlight. So I think the direction is good. Well, that is a great point.

Speaker: I think sometimes a lower budget, which this one didn't technically have a low... It was a bigger budget than Friday, but it was still still pretty small. But I think that is a great time to bring out a director's creativity.

Speaker: Don't throw, like we're seeing today, hundreds of millions of dollars at a director to do whatever they want. Tell them this is your budget, and then they have to get creative with how they shoot a scene like that. Like, oh...

Speaker: we don't We can't really like light this scene, make this set look bigger. Let's make it a really close, intimate scene but by a flashlight. like That enhances it. it So often I'll see a lower budget film that feels like a lower budget film because it's like, well, hope this is what we had. And then there are other times that you watch a lower budget film where they make the absolute best they can with everything they have. And it shows like obsession.

Speaker: So that, I think that's a great point. And i just had to bring it up when you mentioned it. I think whether that was a, the flashlight was a lighting decision brought by budget.

Speaker: I think either way, it shows the director's skill in crafting the scene. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of good shots in this. I love the way it's, it's filmed. Um, I just think it's not, it's not a, it's not a flashy movie. It's not trying to be flashy. It shoots exactly what it needs to shoot. And it does feel beyond more than just like a coverage shoot movie. Like, uh, I think Friday 13th is very coverage based. It's like, okay, here's our camera.

Speaker: Here's our set. You let's watch coffee being made for 20 minutes. Um, keeps saying re keep seeing that pop up in the comments. Yeah, yeah. ah But like little moments, like I said, when Karen gets out of the water and we do those quick little cuts to show her clothing are fun, the way he shoots the violence is very is very effective. It feels like New Jersey um and it doesn't feel like the sleepaway camp thing, which is like we're supposed to be middle of summer, but clearly it's fall because they shot the movie in October and the leaves are turning. You know what mean? um No, yeah. i

Speaker: This one feels like summer, but they're all wearing jeans and I'm wondering how they are surviving in the August heat. But anyways, Well, upstate New York, August, it does get kind of, you know, mean it or like summer. There are times when it it's not as hot, but, you know.

Speaker: I can say, like when it comes to direction, like i really appreciate the final note at the end after that kind of closes out the legend of Cropsey. Yeah. You know, the whole trauma and everything is finished with Cropsey.

Speaker: Things are back to normal, and you've got a whole new group of campers sitting around the fire telling the legend of Cropsey. And the dude, as he finishes the story, looks straight into the camera at that last second at you. So don't look. He'll see you.

Speaker: Don't breathe. He'll hear you. Don't move. You're dead. You know, that kind of thing. like I thought it was a great final touch to close out the film and the whole Legend of Cropsey. Yeah. Oh, yeah. When we talk about budget, let's let's never forget that the burning has a completely pointless moment where a helicopter comes in and lands.

Speaker: The cops show up in the helicopter. Which we don't even see. We just briefly see that there's a sheriff officer in a landing helicopter. Just like, how the fuck did you. Everything at that time had to have a helicopter. You know, it's just like everything had to have a helicopter. Have you ever seen Magnum P.I.? Right. Like, I mean,

Speaker: oh my god There was a whole spinoff of Magnum P.I. What was that called? The whole show about the helicopter. was Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. yeah There was a spinoff about TC in the helicopter?

Speaker: It was. it Airwolf? Yes. So Airwolf was meant to be a spinoff of Magnum P.I., but then they couldn't. Like, for some reason, that didn't happen, and they rewrote it to become Airwolf. But it was supposed to be a spinoff of Magnum P.I.,

Speaker: so So they're like, we finished Magnum. The character that we want to spin a series off on that's the most popular is the fucking helicopter. The helicopter guy ran the 80s. I don't know. so Helicopters are cool. Well, what about Tom Selleck? The ladies like him. Nope, the helicopter is far more important. So that's... Ladies, I like Tom Selleck.

Speaker: What's crazy is we seeing now that Tom Selleck started playing Magnum PI when he was younger than me, and he doesn't look younger than me. I don't think so, but it's still impressive. 80s people age different. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Speaker: It's so funny you brought that up because before I got on me and my wife were watching the bird cage and Robin Williams, Robin Williams son, he says that he's 20 and I was like, I'm 35 and I look younger than this guy looks at 20.

Speaker: When we watch Seinfeld all the time, we're like, these people are supposed to be younger than me. no. It's all preservatives in our food these days. We're just well preserved.

Speaker: Yeah, we're but I do. i I wish I could grow a mustache. I just can't. The mustache that tickles. If I could grow one.

Speaker: i guess for direction, I'm a solid 3.5. Yeah, I'll go three. I'm about to. I'm a three as well on direction. I am a three as well. We're actually unanimous on that one. All right. So the it factor cultural significance for this one.

Speaker: Can I go on a rant? Yeah, Chris, and Chris, go on a rant. Listen, listen to me. Look, I don't care what anybody said. Like, I don't want to hear people discredit the burning. I look, I love Friday the 13th. I like that franchise.

Speaker: I think the burning is the most under discussed. under like broken down, uh, campground slasher right, right up there with like madman. i think madman is another one that really deserves conversation later. Um, yeah, like I did. I'm actually looking, at I have a signed mutilator poster right in front of me, man. Like I love, love these movies that nobody talks about. And yeah it it, it fucking like, it drives me nuts that the situation with distribution of burning,

Speaker: happened because there there are leagues of horror fans out there that will credit friday the 13th with kicking off the subgenre when in reality it didn't you know i mean there was a movie that was there before but because of the timeline it just doesn't happen and i think If you look at what Sean Cunningham did with Friday the 13th and what Tony Malam did with The Burning, they're on total fucking different leagues. Like, yes, you have Tom Savini, but he's operating on a different level in The Burning. And I don't know if that's his relationship with the director, the freedom that he got.

Speaker: But the fact that these movies are distributed a year apart, The Burning gets made before Friday the 13th, these feel like totally different leagues we're in. And I think The Burning needs to start getting that respect.

Speaker: Amen. All right. i I completely agree. Lay that shit on. Hell yeah. So the cultural significant significance rating, i mean, it's like it should be higher, but it's actually not because I don't think it, you know, like k Chris is saying, it's not really cultural. I mean, it is to people that know, right? But so it's actually a lower, like you kind of got to rate it lower than it deserves or should we rate it higher hoping that it influences...

Speaker: i I rate it how it deserves. i I go by how well it is received when it's released, typically. And then I might add one point for a cult following. you know But like Howard the Duck wasn't well received. I think I gave that like a two.

Speaker: you know So i do go by how it's received on its release, usually. This has got to be a five then because it should be. i mean, when you consider what summer camp slasher, I mean, it's almost anybody knows what that is now. Right. And and like it's just a huge thing.

Speaker: So this really is kind of the the found the foundation. Yeah. And the the burning, I feel like lives in the, if you know, you know, space. Yeah. yeah it's Dude, every single review, every single like critical breakdown or like revisit of this movie talks about how like people are always like, how did I not see this before? Like, how did this go under my radar? Like it's, it's really, honestly, I'm going to go as far as to say like this, the burning is the peak of the campground.

Speaker: slasher for me i don't know if there's one better than after it and i think it lives and dies this early on like yeah the rest are fun right like i think friday 13th parts four and six are better than the original and part two is better the original and they're fun but they begin to leave the campground behind or they're at you know they're at homes that just happen to be on a beach like they they kind of begin to leave that i think this is if you're going to talk about campground slasher, I think the very top of the pyramid is the burning. And unfortunately I feel like the top of the pyramid is high enough in the sky that it's kind of covered by the clouds. Yep. So you kind of don't see it. You know what I mean? It's, but it's there. It's there. Yeah. That was a good analogy. Thank you. Thank you. So for me, i I agree with what you guys are saying, ah the way I, and you're allowed to score this however you want. It's all subjective. Um,

Speaker: I look at the fact that this movie had a budget of about 1.5 million and it grossed 700,000. Oh, wow. Fucking Weinsteins, bro. i think I think is a travesty. Like, that is why there's no Burning Two. That's why there's no Cropsey continuing. i don't know that i want to I don't know that I want the Burning Two. But i i do love what this movie does. And I think it stands above the other summer camp slashers.

Speaker: But it bombed. And I don't think it bombed because of the quality. I think this is, as we have said, head and shoulders above the competition at the time. I think this movie is by far the superior film.

Speaker: But it just wasn't well received. And I think that's why... i think we can blame the video nasty movement in the UK for cutting the hell out of it. And which we've seen from our review of My Bloody Valentine, watching the edited versions is not as fun or memorable as watching this. So on My Bloody Valentine, we had someone who watched the severely edited version and hated the movie. So um i do think that impacts this one. A lot of people's first experience might have been the heavily edited version.

Speaker: I don't think the fully unedited version... i think the... What I saw today said the VHS version was heavily edited. It wasn't until we got the DVD version in... 2003 or 2013... Wow.

Speaker: Wow....that they added in the other scenes. And I think that impacted this movie because... I know way more about this movie now, partially because I'm in the circle now, but but than I did before. But I always knew about Friday the you know Growing up, Jason was a presence.

Speaker: This was not. This is the better film, though. So that's how that's how I come out creating this. I do love that this great. grown a following, gathered a following, whatever you want to however I should say that. It's brought people in who now appreciate this movie for what it is and understand that this is the best, in my opinion, the best summer camp slasher there is. um And that's coming from somebody whose favorite franchise is Friday the This movie is the best. But... yeah

Speaker: I love my Jason movies, but the this movie's better. So i do I'll add a point back into my score for that, but i I do think the icy reception of this at first damaged it for many years.

Speaker: So to give you kind of a unique perspective that happened last summer, we hosted a campground slasher special podcast. We got five of our friends on who are very recognizable names kind of in the YouTube horror community. We got them on to talk about movies, our favorite campground slashers. And we asked them if the burning did come out before Friday the 13th. does the.

Speaker: Trajection of 80s horror change, meaning like, does it well, we see Cropsey mass in spirit Halloween instead of Jason mask is this Cropsey become a franchise instead of Friday the 13th. And every single person said no, because crops, the burning does not have like IP built in. It doesn't have like that thing. Right. Because Friday the 13th comes out, makes a ton of money. Right. Word of mouth really hits it. And then Friday the 13th part to the introduction of Jason is that one step forward and then three comes out. He uncovers the mask. He finds the mask and then it becomes what it does. So I think even if the burning did come out first, I don't think it would have been like, oh, the burning is our main eighty s stay, no matter how much money it made.

Speaker: So I don't know if this is a movie that even in its DNA would have taken off. If only, how do I put this? If only it it had maybe larger distribution, meaning it got into more theaters and more people were able to see it than they were. But I still think no matter which way you put it, Friday the 13th would run away with all of the attention.

Speaker: Well, yeah. do be burning Cropsey does not have a lot of visual focus as a character. Whereas it's Friday the 13th, it's all about the look. when you look at Jason, the terror, the size, always the pace, and then the mask.

Speaker: you know You don't get that with Cropsey in any way. You only get that brief look of what you see from his face at the very end up until you see him eventually go up in flames. you know So i be yeah without that without that focus on Cropsey as a character, my sightings.

Speaker: But my metal by metal! Yeah, it's it's just a hands down no win for Cropsey in that regard. He has more visual presence with Jason.

Speaker: Yeah. And Friday the 13th, like Friday the 13th deserves, you know, it that movie took, it was a fucking idea. They didn't even have a script when they put the poster out into the, onto the newspaper to try to get some funding for it, you know? So like all the, Marvel has stolen that method.

Speaker: Yeah. Like all all the credit to Sean Cunningham for doing what he did. And he put, you know, Sean Cunningham built the foundation, but Friday the 13th part two built everything that we know about Friday the 13th, that the first movie gets the credit for.

Speaker: In my opinion, I think I think for right Jason is the launching point, whether he's in the mask or not. You know what I mean? And that's I think that comes post the burning. And I think Friday 13th Part Two in way was inspired by the burning to amplify and become more violent. And then that inspires Halloween 2 to become more violent to the point where John Carpenter comes on to do reshoots to add more gore and they shoot nudity to add that stuff. So I think that there is a influence here that's not spoken about as often, you know.

Speaker: I think this movie is like, so, you know, um I'm not the world's biggest Nirvana fan, but they're fine. But Kurt Cobain, he always said, all I do is rip off the Pixies and Melvins. that And I feel like this movie is like the Pixies or Melvins. Like it's the underground force that everybody was kind of like, oh yeah, we got to fuck. Yeah, that's awesome. But it, you know, when you blow it up to the level it you know, the the wider zeitgeist or however you want to say it, it just didn't have that. if i mean, i the mask is, i even the the sack mask to me in Friday the 13th 2 is iconic. But then obviously once you get to 3, as awful as that movie is, you get the mask and then from there, it's like that is, it's inspired everything slasher wise. so You think Friday 3 is awful?

Speaker: I hate it so much. That and 5, they drive me insane with how much I hate them. I can totally understand why you hate it. It is one of my favorite comfort watches because I think it's hilarious. I think Friday 3 is self the yo-yo at the camera. but hate What's the curly heads kid name?

Speaker: Oh, yeah. ah The one who always plays like dead, the place of pranks. Yeah. He pretends to be dead all the time. God, I think ah I think I think that movie is hilarious.

Speaker: I think part three would be better if it wasn't followed up by the fucking masterpiece that final chapter is. You know what I mean? Because final chapter is one of my favorite Friday the 13th. It's like five A New Beginning is like, hey let's take away Jason. We give you Roy. And then Tom McLaughlin comes in and goes, hey, here's the fucking rock and roll Friday the 13th movie you've been waiting for with Jason Lives. And it just taints everything else around it. You know what i mean? yeah Jason Lives is my favorite. it's so Because it's, like you said, rock and roll. I like to say ah jason live Jason Lives walked so that Scream could run. Because it's super self-aware. It's funny. oh It's also got good scares. so bed's like oh just yeah it's

Speaker: <unk>s I almost put that one on our summer camp slasher list, but I need to save it for when we do a Friday 13th whole franchise breakdown yeah which that'll be a commitment okay so let's score this uh the if factor i was a three i'm gonna go in five you're a five sean okay yeah so yeah like so this is a first watch for me um i in like having seen friday of the 13th the sleepaway camp i mean i guess this movie kind of paved a bit of a way for sleepaway and other

Speaker: you know camp slasher films. um So, I mean, but other than that, I've never heard anybody talk about this movie other than you guys. So I don't know how much is there, but I guess considering the history it has and where we are with with camp slasher films, even up to today, with even one of the most recent ones that I enjoy being a hell of a summer from Neon Films, you know, there's some some weight there, I guess. So I guess it's factored, have to give it a three as well.

Speaker: Okay. So then let's wrap this up with how entertained you are by this movie. This is the most important score in the whole list. It is out of 10. So you're kind of, let's go ahead. Your final thoughts on this, your final, this is, this moment is your letterboxed review. So go for it.

Speaker: Eight. I love it. It just feels authentic and it's violent and it's it's just the top of the of this genre or subgenre, whatever you want to call it for me. So, yeah, I would say eight.

Speaker: I this is I think I've already pretty much like vocally put into words how I feel about this movie in the last section. i think that i don't think it ever gets better from here. And I think that the intentions with the burning were were just to make a great, you know, hey, this is based on the Cropsey thing. We're not trying to influence a whole subgenre, create a whole subgenre. So I think it it it it never tries to be anything more than it is. But what it is is incredibly entertaining. It's very violent. You have great characters. It's well directed. and I think it's a movie that's going to are actually ah to be honest, if we're looking at it now, I think this movie already holds up better than most of the Friday the 13th movies. Yes.

Speaker: Its cultural significance has really picked up in the last 10 years or so, thanks to the Scream Factory 4K and it pretty much living on Tubi. for now and for people to discover but the conversation is still there and while the conversation on friday 13th will always be there i more perk my ears towards anybody that wants to talk about the burning and i usually do that because it's somebody who is discovering it for the first time and i'm really fucking excited that that they're stumbling across this no matter which way they did um for me man i'm gonna go with uh i'm going with a

Speaker: probably like a eight and a half out of 10. Oh yeah. Okay. I was, I liked this movie. Um, ah the thing, I think the thing I enjoyed most about though, was just the who's who in it.

Speaker: That's that that surprised me so much aside from the effects from the kills, especially during like the raft kill scene. You know, Cropsey popping up out of the canoe and just fucking going to town on him, you know.

Speaker: Pretty awesome. um But not like the most amazing thing I've seen. But for, I guess, for the early 80s, though, still pretty rad. So I'd give it a seven. Yeah. Okay. And then i All right. I gave it a nine. And that is, look like I've said, if if you've been here for the last two hours, um I love the summer camp aspect of this movie so much.

Speaker: So much. And then it's just like we injected a slasher in there. And the slasher elements, I think... are fine. They're fine. we That's where we went over in the script. I have some issues with how Cropsey ends up where he does whatever.

Speaker: But, and the final act chase is what keeps it from being a 10 for me. That like, I don't want to just start it over after the ending, just kind of like meh to me. But every time I start this movie, as soon as we get to that baseball sequence, I'm just like, yes, I want to go back to camp. Like I want,

Speaker: I want to go experience that. It's great. I love that. So that's why it is a nine for me. i have all of your final scores. So if you... Jonathan? Yes, sir. You have yours?

Speaker: i do. i am sitting at a 31. And here is the fun thing. um The other three of us...

Speaker: We're all 37s. Wow. thing Yeah. Somehow that worked out that way, which if we get the average, we are 35.5. So that would be a three and a half stars out of five. And so overall, that's not like my personal take on the film as far as three and a half, but that is.

Speaker: Our whole idea is recommending it to a crowd. Three and a half stars. It's a three and a half star movie to show to a gathering of friends, which means it's going to be a good choice, bordering on great choice.

Speaker: But three and a half stars is where this movie lands. So thank you, guys. Thank you. and Any last words? Yeah. yeah Just fucking keep watching. Watch movies that people aren't talking about. yeah like Just keep finding, yeah keep clicking on the shit that makes you go like, what the hell is this? Watch that.

Speaker: like that That to me is where where true film exploration is and where you're really going to learn. about the genre and you know i think people think that there's like this hidden society of people that are like uh oh there's a movie out there better than friday 13th called the burning and we're cool because we know about it and you don't and that doesn't exist man most of us are out here like screaming for for people to check out this stuff and hoping that you actually do you know so please watch this stuff that makes you go what the fuck is this watch that movie i promise you it's probably very good yep

Speaker: yep I agree. Travis. Okay. Here. Travis recommends watch night of the demon from 19. Oh, the big foot movie, the big foot dick rip. Exactly. Yes. Oh, you got to watch this movie.

Speaker: The big foot rips a dude's dick off. wow Oh, shit. Okay. yeah It's not great movie, but it's worth watching. It's not a great movie, but it's a great movie. It's a dick-ripping good time.

Speaker: It is. it is. it is. All right. Jonathan and I will read us out of here. Jonathan? All right. Well, I just throw out so hard with didn't expect some dick ripping here in the last few minutes. No, not this episode. No, sir.

Speaker: No, no, no. But anyway, that brings us to the end of our discussion on the burning. What an exhilarating film to kick off our summer slasher series.

Speaker: It's truly remarkable how well this movie has endured. From its relentless pacing to Tom Savini's iconic practical makeup effects, the burning exemplifies why it is regarded as a true independent masterpiece of the Golden Age.

Speaker: The atmosphere, the tension, and that unforgettable raft scene are quintessential slasher cinema. We couldn't have explored this classic without the invaluable insights from our panel tonight. A big thank you to Sean C. Baker from At The Horror Vision for sharing his fantastic filmmaking perspective. Sean, we appreciate you being here.

Speaker: I appreciate you guys having me. Go ahead and plug where people can find you and all that good stuff. do add The Horror Vision. We're on YouTube. We're on wherever you stream your stories.

Speaker: Instagram and my new book, Black Loves and Broken Hearts, is out there in the wild. ah It's a teenage giallo but modernized rabbit read it.

Speaker: Get it. I saw Kelsey just released her Gialo July reading list on YouTube and mentioned the book. Yeah, she did. as It was her thumbnail. That was awesome. i And I got a couple pictures of it out in the wild from stores. So it was it was cool. It feels good. So it's out there. Yeah, that's where I'm at. That's where I'm at, the Horavision.

Speaker: Awesome. And a huge thanks to Chris from the Beyond the Blood podcast. You always have such a depth of knowledge. The research you do for these films is incredible. So thank you for being here, Chris.

Speaker: Dude, thank you. I love what you guys do to death. So I'm i'm always here for you. whenever Whenever I can come in and fucking interrupt ah ah this conversation, let me I'm here. Awesome. We we love it.

Speaker: And to everyone participating and sharing your takes in a live chat tonight, thank you. Travis at the Nightclub Podcast, our good friend and author jessa Jessica Lacey, and her awesome artist Paul. We love having you guys. So thanks for being in the chat.

Speaker: Yeah. I think we even got Evan from the Kilt and the Redneck was there for a second. Yeah. So thank you. Uh, but don't pack your bags just yet. As we are going to remain deep in the woods for the next couple of weeks, we are diving into one of the most bizarre, beloved and shocking slasher series of all time. Starting in two weeks, we are covering the entire sleep away camp trilogy back to back to back.

Speaker: That's right. We'll be tackling sleepaway camp, sleepaway camp two unhappy campers and sleepaway camp three teenage wasteland to help us navigate the chaos of Judy, Angela and the rest of camp Arawak madness. We'll be joined by our wonderful friend, Jessica Lacey and a new lineup of incredible special guests.

Speaker: Make sure you're subscribed to the channel with notifications turned on so you don't miss a single moment in the cabin. Lock your doors, keep an eye on the wood line and we'll see you back at camp in a couple weeks.

Speaker: This is the average where the real review happens with your friends.

Speaker: you