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Karri.io, the Phoneless Messaging Device
78 Plays16 days ago
In the latest episode of The Dopamine Slot Machine, host Andrew interviews Pete Clifford, founder of Karri, about their innovative screen-free messenger device designed for children aged 5-11.
The Karri enables asynchronous voice messaging between kids and parents or approved friends via a 5G network, without apps, scrolling, phone numbers, or stranger access, offering a safer alternative to smartphones.
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Transcript
Introduction to Dopamine Slot Machine Podcast
00:00:00
Andrew Wilmot
Good morning, good day, good evening, or whenever you are, or welcome to the Dopamine Slot Machine, the podcast that discusses what you need to know about the tech your children are using, how is it designed to get your kids hooked, how does it make money from your children, and what can you do to make sure that your child's relationship with technology is a positive one.
00:00:16
Andrew Wilmot
My name is Andrew. I'm a dad of two and a lifelong gamer. And today I've got a very special guest. I'm super excited for this. It's been literally a year in the making, and that's mostly on my side from being slightly
Introduction to Pete Clifford and Cary Messenger
00:00:28
Andrew Wilmot
disorganized.
00:00:28
Andrew Wilmot
I've got Pete Clifford from Cary. Now, some of you, particularly those of you who are really embedded in the smartphone-free childhood space, might have already come across the Cary Messenger.
00:00:31
Pete (Karri)
Hi.
00:00:38
Andrew Wilmot
But for those who haven't, it's... I was going to say it's a phone, but it's it's not a phone, is it? Which is kind of the whole point of the device. It's a screen-free voice messenger phone-esque thing. so no apps, no scrolling, not even got Snake on it, to the best of my knowledge. I can't see any way looking at it that you could possibly play Snake on it. And so really over to yourself,
How Cary Messenger Works
00:01:02
Andrew Wilmot
Pete, on this. In your words, what is the carry?
00:01:05
Andrew Wilmot
Who's it for?
00:01:06
Pete (Karri)
Yep. Well, first of all, thanks for having me on, Andrew. Really appreciate it. And thank you for the persistence. Absolutely. It's definitely been a year, I think, since we was first connected. um In very simple terms, Cary is a screen-free, data-enabled messenger or device for young children ah that is integrated to a parent app. that the parent has and allows the child and the parent to send asynchronous voice messages or voice notes with one another.
00:01:34
Pete (Karri)
um But it also allows the device to be connected with other children and multiple other children. So the devices can then be used in friendship groups to send voice messages amongst one another to be used a little bit like an old fashioned walkie talkie. But because it's data enabled, it's more like a modern walkie talkie.
00:01:52
Andrew Wilmot
So like like a limitless walkie talkie, they don't have to be in proximity to each other.
00:01:56
Pete (Karri)
Exactly. Yeah, it's based on 5G network. And therefore it works not only everywhere in your own country where you are, but even if you were in Australia, and your child was in the UK, you'd be able to communicate with each other in the same way that you would be able to send voice notes on WhatsApp with your best friend in different countries. Yeah, so it's globally working, there's almost unlimited reach.
00:02:18
Andrew Wilmot
it's It's funny you mentioned the walkie-talkie comparison, right?
00:02:21
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:02:21
Andrew Wilmot
Because it's actually, as I understand it, even safer in terms of the contact from strangers aspect than a walkie-talkie.
Security Features of Cary Messenger
00:02:30
Andrew Wilmot
Like, I recently took took my kids to the local woods, playing with walkie-talkies, running around, having a great time.
00:02:31
Pete (Karri)
yeah.
00:02:36
Andrew Wilmot
And then we started picking up the the conversation of the... like one of the shops, like the rangers there because it was by a golf course.
00:02:42
Pete (Karri)
Yeah. Yeah.
00:02:45
Andrew Wilmot
And, you know, that's a really fringe edge case. I don't think that being realistic, there's any risk of somebody dropping into my kids walkie talkie conversation.
00:02:49
Pete (Karri)
Well.
00:02:54
Andrew Wilmot
But just on a purely theoretical level, then the carry is even more secure than a walkie talkie.
00:02:56
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:02:59
Pete (Karri)
Exactly, and we hear that as well when we're talking to schools because I same thing I was sort of a little bit surprised that in many cases, when a school decides which devices are allowed to be brought to school and not walkie talkies a real walkie talkies based on radio. are Actually, often banned, which I also didn't understand at first, but then and came to understand that actually there's been outlying edge case concern that.
00:03:21
Pete (Karri)
um somebody could then interfere with that radio ah frequency or with the channel that it's on and still have contact to the child. So the great thing about the carry is data driven. There's no telephone number.
00:03:34
Pete (Karri)
So there's no telephone number that can be contacted, for example, like you might have with a dumb phone, start phone, or or even a smartwatch. Um,
00:03:42
Andrew Wilmot
So my child couldn't give out like a carry address and have somebody that that I haven't approved of messaging them.
00:03:49
Pete (Karri)
That's not possible to happen with a telephone number for sure. Yeah. And it means that the only way that two carries can be connected so that those children can connect to one another or that another adult can communicate with a carry is via the approval of the parent, the administrator of the device. And that's all within the carry network or like the carry platform. So um the the fear I think that some parents have when they give a young child a device right now that has a telephone number, particularly one that's on a device that has text messaging ability or any form of text communication, is that sort of anonymous contact via the phone number because um it's it's then relatively straightforward to anonymously reach out to a child via text in a way that you cannot do at all on character.
00:04:33
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, absolutely. That sounds really cool. in In terms of like age ranges then, um you know my I'm thinking to my own kids here.
Cary's Role in Family Communication
00:04:43
Andrew Wilmot
And my my parents actually are moving away very shortly.
00:04:49
Andrew Wilmot
And my four-year-old, he's very close with my mother.
00:04:49
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:04:54
Andrew Wilmot
He's not a daddy's boy.
00:04:54
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:04:55
Andrew Wilmot
He's not a mummy's boy. He is a nana's boy.
00:04:57
Pete (Karri)
Okay. yeah
00:04:58
Andrew Wilmot
And so you know one specific i would never want to get him a phone to be doing voice, so like like video chats um without direct supervision. it'll be if he's voiced If he's video chatting my parents, I'd want to to be on a device that I'm managing.
00:05:08
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:05:13
Andrew Wilmot
But I could get carrie or a couple of carries, one for each location, you know one of my parents and then one here, and have it that way, particularly at this price point.
00:05:25
Andrew Wilmot
right
00:05:26
Pete (Karri)
Definitely.
00:05:26
Andrew Wilmot
um
00:05:26
Pete (Karri)
Yeah. are your Are your parents still happily and confidently using smartphones or are they, did they never get onto the smart?
00:05:32
Andrew Wilmot
yeah they're They're very happy using smartphones.
00:05:34
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:05:34
Andrew Wilmot
um to be To be frank, sometimes I'll go over those and I think, forget smartphone free childhood, we have a smartphone free retirement because they are absolutely just to to up to the neck in AI generated reels and things like that.
00:05:47
Pete (Karri)
Yes. 100% agree with that that's my experience as well but yeah I mean you're completely right I think that there's there's um I live in Berlin actually in Germany and um I'm originally from the UK uh my parents still based back in the UK and um I'm familiar with the pain of trying to get your young child onto a video call on a weekly basis or twice weekly basis with your parents to try and keep that family connection um And I don't think it's a great experience for either party.
00:06:17
Pete (Karri)
Like I think often the grandparents don't really enjoy trying to have a conversation with kind of an eight or nine or 10 year old, in particular, a four year old of a video call. And it's then also not interesting for most kids as well to have that video call.
00:06:29
Pete (Karri)
But what's really nice about this asynchronous voice messaging when you've got when the grandparent has got the carry app.
00:06:29
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah.
00:06:35
Pete (Karri)
and the child has got the carry devices, they can just drop messages back and forth to one another when and if they feel like it. um And I think for the child, then that's sort of sort of really nice to be then in contact with the grandparents when they feel like it. And actually for the grandparents, especially if it's like an individual grandparent, um It's ah definitely something like related also then feeling part of the family.
00:06:55
Pete (Karri)
So if you are if you've moved away, like you said, your grandparents going to as well, like you stay more involved, you stay more directly in contact with your grandkids rather than always having to be via a FaceTime or a video call organized by your kid to speak to your grandkids.
00:07:07
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah.
00:07:09
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
Independence and Safety for Kids with Cary
00:07:10
Andrew Wilmot
the The other use case, and again, thinking to my eldest this time, our eight child is desperate to start walking further. She already walks part of the way to school on her own, um but to be walking further to and from school by herself.
00:07:19
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:07:23
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:07:23
Andrew Wilmot
She loves the idea of even getting on the bus herself and doing a trip into town.
00:07:28
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:07:28
Andrew Wilmot
um I think perhaps the nervousness is much more on the parental side there than than on her side, but...
00:07:34
Pete (Karri)
Definitely. Yeah.
00:07:37
Andrew Wilmot
I wouldn't want to give her a smartphone for what I think is to our to our listeners, very obvious reasons at this point. But even with a dumb phone, as you were, or brick phone, as as you were saying, there is that concern of that number is public facing.
00:07:53
Andrew Wilmot
If somebody gets that number or she just innocently shares it with a couple of her friends who one of them shares it to somebody else or or whatever,
00:07:53
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:08:02
Andrew Wilmot
it can very quickly get out of your control, whereas with carry, it's completely within your control.
00:08:08
Pete (Karri)
Yeah, I think that's one thing that, I mean, that's where that's where there's an intentional sharing of the telephone number, but it's relatively straightforward to just also randomly guess at telephone numbers and go that approach as well.
00:08:08
Andrew Wilmot
um
00:08:20
Pete (Karri)
So that's another one that you then have to be yeah concerned about. But to to your point around how much does the child want the independence and this freedom versus how concerned is the parent? It comes, I guess, to that quote that's often used from Jonathan Haidt that we've been ah overprotecting our children in the real world and underprotecting them online.
00:08:39
Pete (Karri)
And I think that's ah that's very much what Carrie speaks to. you know it's ah It's giving the child the opportunity to have much more independence than perhaps their parent would feel comfortable with otherwise. but then actually giving the parent this peace of mind and the security that they can stay in touch and also just know where they are if they need to in the case when they've given them this moment of independence.
00:08:49
Andrew Wilmot
Thank you.
00:08:57
Pete (Karri)
But so I think so many studies show now how healthy it is for children to have this early independence, to have this early self-confidence in this feeling of trust that their parents are giving to them when they're when they're allowed to do more things by themselves at an earlier age than we otherwise would allow them.
00:09:14
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah. And just going, I've got the technical specs up here as well.
00:09:18
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:09:18
Andrew Wilmot
It looks pretty bomb-proof as well, right? Like, putting aside all of the other issues with smartphones, um just the the cost of giving giving my, let's be honest, being frank here, quite clumsy, quite, at times, a little bit careless with their own things.
00:09:21
Pete (Karri)
Yes.
00:09:35
Andrew Wilmot
Eight-year-old device that could be £100, £200, and with a big glass screen that, you know, even with the...
00:09:40
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:09:42
Andrew Wilmot
best cases out there.
00:09:44
Pete (Karri)
Sure.
00:09:44
Andrew Wilmot
I see that as a bill waiting to happen. But this looks like, um you know, you could throw it out of a plane and get a couple of nicks, but probably still would be working.
00:09:47
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:09:55
Pete (Karri)
Yeah, definitely. ah We've had very sort of clear requirements that we've been developing to um when making a product for a child that's targeted. So when making a product that's targeted for a child of five to 11. And actually the first of those is it needs to be less than 100 pounds.
Cary Messenger's Design and Pricing
00:10:12
Pete (Karri)
So it's important for us that the product price to your normal family is, and we're gonna retail it at 90 pounds. That's the price that customers will be able to buy it for from June onwards.
00:10:23
Pete (Karri)
um But at the same time, under that £90, then making it that it's completely drop-proof without the case. So we sell it with a case, and most customers actually buy it with a carry case as well. But we've made it so that even if you're dropping it without the case at about one and a half metres, that it's drop-proof in multiple different angles. And also that it's IPX6 rated waterproof, so it can drop into a puddle for a half a minute and would still work perfectly fine. um And it's trying to find that perfect balance between it's affordable, it's affordable for a typical family, not just a wealthier family, but also a kid can do whatever kids do to it and it will still be working two years into the lifetime.
Tracking Features Debate
00:11:06
Andrew Wilmot
That's brilliant. There's there's one one more thing I wanted to to pick at at the on the technical specs, and you'll forgive me for potentially bringing up something that's increasingly controversial, and that is tracking.
00:11:13
Pete (Karri)
Sure.
00:11:20
Andrew Wilmot
um
00:11:20
Pete (Karri)
Mm-hmm.
00:11:22
Andrew Wilmot
and So I know from my own workshops that tracking is a reason that a lot of parents give their children smartphones because i I want to know when he safely gets to school.
00:11:33
Andrew Wilmot
I want to know they are where I think they are, that kind of thing.
00:11:36
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:11:37
Andrew Wilmot
But it is also increasingly controversial from the perspective of normalising tracking, particularly in like adult relationships. like i don't My partner and I, we're 31, we don't track each other.
00:11:48
Andrew Wilmot
But my sister, who's only four years younger,
00:11:49
Pete (Karri)
Mm-hmm.
00:11:51
Andrew Wilmot
her and her boyfriend have each other's locations on all the time. And I think that's something that actually a lot of parents find they want to track their child, but then they hear about that being normalized as adults and feel a little bit iffy about that. So really open question here, because it's got, it's got tracking for the parents who that would be a blocker to not giving a child a smartphone. That would be like a for parents who are,
00:12:19
Andrew Wilmot
Getting the child a smartphone specifically because it's got tracking is up to that.
00:12:22
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:12:23
Andrew Wilmot
But just your own thoughts on this.
00:12:27
Pete (Karri)
um so carry it itself as a company exists today because of my own need as a parent i would i would say i would describe it this way my son is now 13 actually but um the the origin of the problem or the thing that i was trying to solve for when i came up with carrie was my own need um to give him the freedom to be out and about with his friends in the afternoon after school up to a certain time by which time he should be home um and my desire for him to have this without me needing to constantly check in on him.
00:12:59
Pete (Karri)
And I think that for most of the parents of my generation, at least I'm 43, so I'm a little older, um The desire is not to constantly track track where your child is.
00:13:10
Pete (Karri)
The need is to track just in case. So it's more of ah in the case that something happens out of the usual and 99% of the time, nothing out of the usual does happen. So it doesn't even matter. You don't even need to use the tracking, but it's that like in the 1% of the moment where you need to check something else that you can then quickly check it.
00:13:29
Pete (Karri)
um And so I think that my experience has been that for the majority, and I would say even almost almost the vast majority of parents, the the tracking element is important.
00:13:40
Pete (Karri)
um And it's fundamental and it's also also why, for example, sometimes a smart device, sorry, sorry, ah a dumb phone or a start phone is not necessarily a great option because they don't come with GPS. In many cases, there's no location tracking. So it doesn't solve the whole problem. It solves part of the problem, but not the whole problem. um However, ah we have shipped a lot of carries by now.
00:14:01
Pete (Karri)
And we have a lot of active users that carries and it's really interesting to see how they then use the tracking. So we let our customers choose between having ah fully live tracking, which means like updating every minute, which feels more or less like live.
00:14:14
Pete (Karri)
And then we have three minutes, five minutes, 10 minutes and off. So you can switch off as well. um And almost five percent of the customers do indeed switch it off so ah to your point of there are some customers who want to be able to say to their kids i'm not tracking you like we can stay in touch this is for talking um and for being able to send messages back and forth but it's not for tracking um we have those customers um and then there's a real spread across the one minute three minute five minute ten minute spread um of how the customers set it up. So I think it's not a one size fits all. Like there's a, the tracking is, that it feels like it's quite a fundamental need for most parents, but what that means for each parent is a little bit different in terms of how kind of very precise it is or how up to date you're constantly looking at the the location.
00:14:14
Andrew Wilmot
Mm-hmm.
00:15:00
Andrew Wilmot
Okay, cool. That was ah quite quite a diplomatic answer, but certainly...
00:15:04
Pete (Karri)
I mean, my my my own my own I can answer it from my own perspective. So interesting technical challenge, actually, talking about the technical side of it. um If you want to have one minute updates of where your child is the whole time, it burns a lot of battery.
00:15:20
Pete (Karri)
So it's kind of a trade off. You can set it to one minute updates um and constantly see where the child is and have absolutely live view. But then you need to charge the device every second day.
00:15:31
Pete (Karri)
So it's quite a lot of charging effort. um I always felt that for me 10 minutes was fine. Like as long as I kind of had ah an idea of my son's area in the neighborhood every 10 minutes, that was like more than enough.
00:15:44
Pete (Karri)
And actually, most of the time, in most days, I never looked at the locator. I didn't need to see where he was because it was a normal day where he was just roaming around in the neighborhood meeting with the same friends that he always met with.
00:15:55
Pete (Karri)
and he came home on time and there was you know nothing else. But at the back of my mind, I think like a lot of other parents of my generation, you still have that thing of, if he doesn't come home on time and he's running a little bit late, it would be good to just be able to quickly see where he is.
00:16:08
Pete (Karri)
So I know exactly where he is at the point that that then happens.
00:16:09
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah.
00:16:11
Pete (Karri)
um
00:16:12
Andrew Wilmot
A safety net rather than a leash.
00:16:13
Pete (Karri)
Exactly, yeah, yeah. it's it that That's what it's intended to be, at least with with them the the carry concept, yeah.
Inspiration Behind Cary Messenger
00:16:21
Andrew Wilmot
Cool. You actually touched on what I next wanted to ask about here. And that's like your own journey that's brought you to developing carry right both in terms of what you've done before.
00:16:31
Andrew Wilmot
You mentioned that you built this because this is what you wanted with your son when he was younger.
00:16:36
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:16:36
Andrew Wilmot
Although does does your son now use the carriers your first tester?
00:16:38
Pete (Karri)
No, no, it's, no, i'm I'm one of those parents who's now got a child going into the teenage years. So I'm going through the painful transition of, ah He's becoming a much more mature young man and coming out of childhood. And we'd always promised him a smartphone at 12, which when we made that promise seemed like it was quite late. But as it's got longer, that's actually felt still too early. But we've kept our promise and given given him his smartphone at 12. So now we're actually going through the early first year pain of what it is to give a 13 year old a smartphone and all of the pain that comes with it. Yeah.
00:17:13
Pete (Karri)
um But to to reflect on the very origin of Carrion, like what my need was, um but my My son is similar to what you were saying with you. with i think you said with your daughter of her wanting asking for more independence, like really pushing for more independence. My son was the same. He wanted to walk to school by himself or with his friends. He wanted to start taking a bus every now and then to the nearest shop.
00:17:38
Pete (Karri)
He wanted to go to the shops to pick up some snacks. He wanted to stay over at a friend's house for the evening. And I wanted all of these things for him as well. But I always still had this thing of like, i did I just want to be able, just in case, I just want to be able to stay in touch with him. And I want him to be stay in touch with me.
00:17:56
Pete (Karri)
And um it would be reassuring for me to know where he is if I needed to. um And I actually, my wife and I experimented for about a year with the current things that are on the market.
00:18:09
Pete (Karri)
that you can use um to try and solve the problem, which is mainly repurposing existing technology that's out there for adults and to make it work for children. So we tried dumb phones, we tried long range walkie talkies, we tried smartwatches and with my son at least for a year or so, none of it really scratched the itch or it partially solved the problem and then created whole new problems I didn't have before. And it was at the end of that year that I arrived at the realization for myself of, okay, what I need is I need him to have a thing, some form of device, like an object ah in his hand that would allow us to send asynchronous voice messages. So not phone calls, not calling each other,
00:18:52
Pete (Karri)
ah not telephone numbers, like not not leaving answer phone messages with one another, not texting.
00:18:56
Andrew Wilmot
Thank you.
00:18:57
Pete (Karri)
um Asynchronous voice messages is the perfect way for a 43-year-old man and eight-year-old child to communicate with one another when needed. um And some form of basic tracking advice device. And if it if this device has both of these things and it's integrated for a parent app for me, this is it. This is exactly what solves my problem as a parent.
00:19:18
Pete (Karri)
and was then amazed to find that that didn't exist in that form. So that so that was the very um original inspiration for Carrie.
00:19:26
Andrew Wilmot
What's the phrase? Necessity is the mother of invention, right?
00:19:29
Pete (Karri)
Exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah. um And i not only was I not able to find that product in in Berlin, in Germany, where I was where i live, ah I wasn't able to find it anywhere in the world.
00:19:31
Andrew Wilmot
um
00:19:40
Pete (Karri)
and And that's a typical kind of entrepreneur's dilemma at that point. You then ask yourself, does this not exist because it's a terrible idea? Or does this not exist because it's a brilliant idea and I'm the first person in the world to have this idea. It's always a very scary moment for an on for somebody with an entrepreneurial spirit. And I mean, yeah, I guess because of how things have developed now, you can see which path I then took when answering that question.
00:20:05
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, nobody, none of our listeners are going any prizes for guessing there.
Development and User Feedback
00:20:10
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:20:10
Andrew Wilmot
But you're you're releasing the Carry Messenger 2 in June, I believe, is the first tranche of of um devices going out, ah which of course means that there's been a Carry Messenger 1.
00:20:16
Pete (Karri)
Yep.
00:20:23
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:20:24
Andrew Wilmot
You know, what sort of lessons have been learned? What sort of changes between those two devices?
00:20:29
Pete (Karri)
Yeah, probably the first thing to say here actually is I don't have a background at all in developing consumer technology for families and children or hardware in any way. um And so my biggest dilemma at the beginning of having this realization was I don't have the skills to build what I have in mind. Like I know exactly what I want as a parent. I can envisage how it could be, but um I'm lacking the skills to do it.
00:20:56
Pete (Karri)
What i do have from my past is, ah many, many years working in startup, but then startup companies where the mentality tends to be very iterative.
00:21:06
Pete (Karri)
So, you know, very, very short learning cycles, you develop a very basic, minimal viable product.
00:21:08
Andrew Wilmot
Mm-hmm.
00:21:11
Pete (Karri)
You ship that you get your first feedback, you you learn how to adopt, adapt it. You do an adaptation, you ship the next one, et cetera, et cetera. And then every person that I was talking to early on in the, in the journey of, of, of Carrie would say, all of that doesn't really apply to hardware. In hardware, you need to know exactly what you want and you need to basically design that to the nth degree until it's completely finished and then you can build it. And then when it's finally finished and built, you can start giving that to customers and starting to get some feedback. And that's something that i had to I felt I really had to push hard against as a concept. And I'm very pleased that I did.
00:21:46
Pete (Karri)
because um i have a co-founder now, Mayhul, actually two co-founders, Mayhul and Karsten, but Mayhul is my hardware co-founder and he has an engineering background, he has a background in hardware, so his preference is to take that approach.
00:21:59
Pete (Karri)
um But we've been working together for a couple of years now in a way where we actually do constantly ship new versions of the hardware. And the Messenger One, as we now describe it, which is actually product that many customers out there in the UK are using using every day, was originally a prototype. So it was just something that we very quickly put together. We knew it wasn't perfect. We knew it wasn't exactly solving the whole problem. We knew there'd be some limitations, but we knew that if we got it into the hands of users quickly, we would learn very quickly what worked, what didn't work, what was important, what what wasn't important.
00:22:31
Pete (Karri)
um And that's been a really important way that we've approached it. To describe some of like the um learnings that we've taken, the one of the good things about moving fast is is you don't overthink ah some things and then they become very obvious immediately. So really good example, when we when we first put together the the Messenger 1 and sent it out,
00:22:51
Pete (Karri)
We didn't put a lock. There was no lock button on it. So it meant that parents were constantly getting accidental messages the whole time from the kids because it's in their pocket or it's in their bag. um And the parents are then constantly getting butt dials, I guess we could say, from the kids from from pushing on there.
00:23:08
Pete (Karri)
um The second was that we, even though there was the ability to put some form of attachment on there, um so the kid could hang it around their neck if they wanted to or attach it to the bag or something, there was no particular case. So the number one complaint immediately from the parents and children was like, great idea, but unfortunately, it's like not easy to then take out and about. and that's the whole point of it. um And even though it's relatively thin, by I would say most device standards, it's not thin enough to slip into the pocket of a seven to 10-year-old. So in the Messenger 2, as we're talking about, is what's coming next. There's been a learning around you know what the right shape for the device is to be in the hand of an eight or nine-year-old to slip into the pocket of an eight or nine-year-old, what fits in the bag.
00:23:54
Pete (Karri)
um And un loads, loads more. But like that's just a couple of examples. We can go into some more in a minute you'd like.
00:24:00
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, I mean, the whole whole visual design of of the carriers changed between one and two. My initial thought was whether I hadn't even thought about the slimmer design being easier to put in a pocket.
00:24:13
Andrew Wilmot
My initial thought is that the first one looks, I'm trying to put this in in quite in the nicest way possible, but it looks like something which an eight-year-old might push back on.
00:24:21
Pete (Karri)
David don't need to don't be diplomatic, you can you can say say what say what you say say what you think. David Price-
00:24:26
Andrew Wilmot
Um, the first one, I think my, my daughter would look at it and say, it looks like a baby monitor.
00:24:33
Pete (Karri)
yeah yeah.
00:24:34
Andrew Wilmot
Whereas the second one is, is that bit sleeker? Is that bit, I think she'll probably look at us and think that this looks pretty cool.
00:24:44
Pete (Karri)
and And the way I can describe this is ah the the the Messenger One, because it was a prototype, it was something that we put down on a piece of paper and said, that's good enough that we can get it into the hands of some children and start to get the feedback. And we we do listen to the parental feedback about the about the experience and about the the platform.
00:25:05
Pete (Karri)
but we're most interested in what the children tell us about about it. And we do ask them individually from one another. um the carry The carry messenger two is as a result of tens of thousands of days of usage of the messenger one and a half a million messages exchanged on the messenger one. um And the kids telling us,
00:25:27
Pete (Karri)
what is and what is not working about the device. um And we also have then been very fortunate to work together with Pentagram, which is a world renowned industrial design agency. So we've been able to feed all of this primary data we're getting from the users on the messenger one.
00:25:43
Pete (Karri)
which which we know to be imperfect, but it's still very actively used by lots and lots of kids in the UK. And then take that world-class industrial design expertise from Pentagram and put the two things together. And I'm very pleased to say that Messenger 2 is then what has come out of that. And right down to the... level of i mean we taught i talked about the thinness there but also everything down to that even the ratio between the length and the width and how that means it sits in a child's hand and where their thumb sits on the device as they reach across to be able to play or listen to a message um all of this has been like thought through to the nth degree by the time that we then actually then have manufactured the messenger too
00:26:26
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, I totally encourage users to, sorry, users, our listeners to go look this up and just compare the differences because the, yeah, the carry messenger too, it's really shown the effort that's been put in from a design perspective.
Impact of UK's Smartphone Ban in Schools
00:26:39
Andrew Wilmot
Moving away from the carry a little bit and onto current affairs, ah this has been fantastic timing because we've had some big news today. And that is that the the government is going to,
00:26:54
Andrew Wilmot
make the previous guidance that schools should be phone free and i'm using that language very very carefully here uh a legal requirement now and i've seen all sorts of reactions to this at this point particularly within smartphone free childhood space some people are viewing it as quite a big step but a number of people who have some concerns about this as a step due to some of the wording about it now I'm going to hold off on my opinions for a second.
00:27:04
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:27:22
Andrew Wilmot
And as somebody who has developed a phone-like tool, phone-like device, I don't want to call the phone. and I need to come up with a better term.
00:27:32
Andrew Wilmot
I'll look back to you and your marketing guys.
00:27:33
Pete (Karri)
Yeah. Yeah, we're trying with messenger. We're not sure yet, but I feel like messenger could be a really great noun to move away from because all of the other terms that are used have got very, very bad connotation. I think its i think if it's a dumb phone, a start phone, all of these other alternative ways to describe things that are not smartphones, that...
00:27:56
Pete (Karri)
They don't inspire ah young children to be like, I want to have one of those. So I think we need we do need to find a new way to describe it. Yeah.
00:28:04
Andrew Wilmot
But yeah, so you've you've developed this ah messenger, messaging tool. And now we've just seen guidance become, or the government's house is going to become law, that schools have to be phone free.
00:28:14
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:28:17
Andrew Wilmot
So real open open board to you here.
00:28:21
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:28:21
Andrew Wilmot
What's your take on this? What's your initial views on what we've seen?
00:28:25
Pete (Karri)
i first of all i would say we i would take quite an international perspective on this topic and the reason i say that is because we intentionally chose to launch in the uk first we could we could have launched carry anywhere that's the one of the luxuries of ah modern startup i would say that you can practically launch your idea wherever you want and and really make it work if you want to but we chose the uk two years ago because it had what felt like a very, very forward um looking smartphone free childhood movement led by parents.
00:28:58
Pete (Karri)
um And our thinking was, this is this is really gonna happen in this market that the that the parents of this generation um in the UK are going to lead the world in how we adapt and change the way that we expose our children to digital technologies when they're very young.
00:29:04
Andrew Wilmot
Thank
00:29:15
Pete (Karri)
um And what actually happened, or at least from my perspective over the two years is internationally, a lot of governments moved very quickly to legislate in these areas in a way that the UK government didn't. So we were actually very disappointed and frustrated, I would say, to see this parent led movement happen.
00:29:35
Pete (Karri)
um but for the government not to act despite it being an incredibly popular policy and then to be looking around us and seeing in US states, in Canada, in Australia, in Austria, in Denmark, in France, governments legislating very quickly to ban smartphones in schools or set minimum ages for social media access or implementing much more aggressive um ah age verification for apps that are on smartphones. So I think the first thing I would say is it's been a little bit disappointing as a British person to see how slow moving that's been. But then it's nice to see that this is finally now happening and happening in the UK and it's somewhat a copy of what was already happening a lot in a lot of other countries already.
00:30:17
Pete (Karri)
um
00:30:18
Andrew Wilmot
Mm-hmm.
00:30:19
Pete (Karri)
personally i would say yeah both for carrie and for me personally we're not anti-tech so we feel that there is a role for smart devices in young children's lives but that those moments of smart device interaction ideally should be at home and supervised by parents and um not in an unsupervised way out and about or at school for example so the the idea that you should not have smartphones in schools feels
00:30:54
Pete (Karri)
um very obvious, I think, and we welcome the fact that it's now a statutory ban. um From Carrie's perspective, um what was not necessarily so helpful with what's now going to be legislated is that it still doesn't define specifically what a smartphone is.
00:31:12
Pete (Karri)
So I think that this is one of those very tricky topics where terms
00:31:13
Andrew Wilmot
Yep.
00:31:17
Pete (Karri)
The simple term when somebody says, let's do a smartphone ban in schools, everybody thinks they know what that means. ah And it's only when you really get into the nitty gritty detail, which is obviously what educators and head tap head teachers have to get into, that you realize it could be many, many different things. Like is a device that has a camera a smart device? Is a smartwatch a smartphone? ah is this Is a smartphone that is locked down and friendly for teenagers a smartphone or not a smartphone? And you can't expect teenagers in the classroom, sorry, um teachers in the classroom to be making these judgments. Like, it needs to be quite crystal clear. So we were a little disappointed that then there's not some clarification of, like, these are the things we consider to be smart devices.
00:32:01
Andrew Wilmot
It's, ah yeah, the fact that they've not even defined so far this as banning smartphones from schools, but just banning phones. Now, there's definitely an argument that Carrie isn't even a phone, right?
00:32:11
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:32:14
Andrew Wilmot
It doesn't have a phone number. You can't phone. can send voice messages to inform it. But ah from from a parent perspective, the harm isn't being done by Nokias with snake on it. it's that The whole pushback is against specifically smartphones, internet-enabled devices, mostly with cameras.
00:32:34
Andrew Wilmot
I agree that actually trying to define what a smartphone is could be quite difficult. Maybe you go along the lines of anything with Android door or um iOS installed.
00:32:45
Andrew Wilmot
with it I really don't know.
00:32:46
Pete (Karri)
Well, I mean, that the the social the minimum age for social media access in Australia is a relatively good example where they then had to put a lot of effort into defining specifically what social media is.
00:32:57
Pete (Karri)
And I think that that's the the enforcement of a minimum age for social media only works if somebody can actually define what a social media app is. And I think they've been relatively good at that in Australia in describing it.
00:32:57
Andrew Wilmot
Mm-hmm.
00:33:10
Pete (Karri)
And I do think that ultimately for these smartphone users, bans in schools to work they will need to specify um what things are and not not allowed because i mean to to go back to the very original thing of a walkie-talkie you would assume based on what we read today in the legislation that if a child brought a walkie-talkie to school uh that should be okay right like you'd assume um
00:33:32
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah.
00:33:34
Pete (Karri)
But you have to assume because it's not written in law like there's nothing that says very specifically radio based technologies that use radio waves and channels for communicating is a smart device.
00:33:46
Pete (Karri)
So it then again, be up to the school and to the for the teacher to say, yes, you may or may not bring that um long range walkie talkie into the classroom.
00:33:55
Andrew Wilmot
So I'm going to shift.
00:33:56
Pete (Karri)
But I can say, sorry, one thing maybe just to say to it is we talk to a lot of parents on a weekly basis.
00:33:59
Andrew Wilmot
Mm-hmm.
00:34:02
Pete (Karri)
We also talk to a lot of schools and headteachers on a weekly basis. As far as we can see from most schools' bans that they put in place or when they then issue guidance to their parents of what they consider to be a smart device, there's a few key characteristics. So one is, of course, a full digital screen.
00:34:21
Pete (Karri)
The second one is um an internet browser of any form. The third one is apps. um Any apps, really. Of course, people worry mostly, I think, about ah route algorithmically um driven content type apps like TikTok, but any apps, I think, is is probably on the list. um But also having a camera so bringing a camera into the school environment is also extremely dangerous And so these tend to be the four major things that schools say okay if it has this we'd rather the kids are not bringing these into the school
00:34:55
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, I completely agree with that. I wanted to shift to, I've got one one last question on my list perhaps a little bit of a bit of a technical question.
00:35:05
Pete (Karri)
Sure
00:35:05
Andrew Wilmot
um So the the voice the voice messaging from device to device, ah I know that Carrie is, that there's a number of other products that are coming to market with you know similar philosophy, right?
Future Possibilities for Child Devices
00:35:22
Andrew Wilmot
And Carries somewhat of a closed ecosystem here where if my child has a carry and my neighbors got, I'm trying to think of think of an example, a Nodi Flip, they they just did their pre-sale in the UK the other day, then they can't talk to each other despite having very similar devices.
00:35:41
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:35:46
Andrew Wilmot
Now in banking, you've got something called open banking, right? a sort of open platform that you can plug in and build apps for and sort of interact with. Now completely just, I have no idea the sort of architecture of what you've built here, but you know, super long-term thinking
00:36:00
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:36:04
Andrew Wilmot
Is that something that you know one day, perhaps instead of it being, you know I've got a carry, you've got a node, Jane down the road, don't know why chose Jane, has has some unspecified third device, but instead a sort of a
00:36:20
Andrew Wilmot
you know shed shared architecture, an open source architecture where they can you know, communicate with each other in some aspect. I have no idea if that's possible, but I'm just sort of envisioning that in my mind.
00:36:28
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:36:34
Pete (Karri)
It's a really good question, and it's actually one that I've never been asked before. So thank you for the question, first of all. um So like I said, I don't have a background in as the development of consumer technology, in particular not with hardware. But if there's one thing I've learned in the two years that I've been doing this, anything is possible.
00:36:51
Pete (Karri)
So um I don't think that for ourselves or for Nodi, there would ever be any sort of technical, like absolute technical constraint that would mean it's not possible to be done. um When I'm imagining how that could look, so I think the first thing to say would probably say, if we've reached that stage, it's already fantastic because it means that there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of kids in the UK and in other countries around the world already using their carries and nodi flips.
00:37:11
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah.
00:37:19
Pete (Karri)
And the only problem to solve then is how to get them to communicate with one another. At the same time, I'm thinking about my own experience as ah as an adult, ah as an Apple user. And as far as I know, if I use iMessage on my iPhone with somebody else that has a Samsung Android device, I would not be able to see an iMessage whether the message was received or heard, right? so there we're talking about two massive or massive conglomerates who hypothetically could probably make that work and make that possible if they wanted to, and yet they have some reason that they've not made that possible and kept their closed environments as they are.
00:38:01
Pete (Karri)
um I think that... um ah Because we're so focused on the mission here, which is to try to reduce young children's exposure to ah the harms of digital devices, particularly in an unsupervised way, um and getting kids outdoors more and playing more and and and having a much healthier childhood, I would hope or be optimistic that we'd be able solve those things to make sure that we can make it accessible to the maximum number of children possible.
00:38:33
Andrew Wilmot
Fantastic. Yeah, I appreciate ah going from, hey, we've built this fantastic solution for parents who want to be able to have contact with their child whilst the child's out and about or to facilitate contact between other members of family. But, ah you know, that's great and all. But have you considered building a ah worldwide safe for kids messaging architecture?
00:38:55
Andrew Wilmot
it's It's quite a jump. But...
00:38:58
Pete (Karri)
No, but it's it's it's a really, really important thing to think about because um it's easy like that the parent-to-child use case, the parent-to-child solution that we're delivering is let's say it's probably the easiest part of the solution because the parent will see this uh opportunity that they can get an alternative they'll purchase it they'll be happy that it does what they need it to do but that's very different from a child coming home from school and saying to their mum or dad when they're going to school i want to carry
00:39:32
Pete (Karri)
I just saw a bunch of my friends with carries and I want one now as well.
00:39:33
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah.
00:39:36
Pete (Karri)
um And these are that like, it's identifying the things that we can make it do or like that the child can benefit from, from it that make them want to come home and go, i want to have a carry. Those are actually like, that that that will be what how we win or lose, I think eventually with this. And so we are, um we're constantly scanning um the horizon for the thing that will make the kid go, it's This is so great. Like, I want have this thing. I want to have this device that I've seen my other friends have got.
00:40:07
Andrew Wilmot
Brilliant. um That's me coming to come to the end of my list of questions. And I look over at the time and wow, 40 minutes.
00:40:11
Pete (Karri)
OK.
00:40:14
Andrew Wilmot
Thank you, Pete. This has been brilliant. um Times I even forgot that this is supposed to be back and forth podcast. It's really been really cool hearing from you.
00:40:24
Pete (Karri)
No problem.
00:40:24
Andrew Wilmot
um ah suppose we'll finish if there's anything that you would like to say to the dopamine slot machine audience, a sort of parting message before I do the outro.
00:40:35
Pete (Karri)
Yeah, I think um I'm thinking about what we've discussed today and maybe what would be interesting to hear is from for the kind of people that listen to your podcast.
Feedback and Engagement with Listeners
00:40:44
Pete (Karri)
um We began by talking about the the price and what the device can do for the price. So that was my device getting a firmware update.
00:40:54
Pete (Karri)
Interesting. um ah Hopefully that's nothing that's going stop it working. Yeah, the price the price of the current Messenger 2 and what it can do for that price. And we frequently ah talking to our existing users and hearing from them what things they might want it to do in the future. But when we hear these particular ideas or these features, we know that from a hardware development perspective, those things could only really be achieved in a device that would be over a hundred pounds.
00:41:28
Pete (Karri)
So the next question that we're beginning to ask ourselves is if there was to be a messenger three, for example, um, that was perhaps more for nine to 14 year olds.
00:41:39
Pete (Karri)
So not, not a dumb phone, not a start phone, not some sort of repurposed technology, but literally a piece of technology that's specifically designed for the needs of a nine to 14 year old in mind.
00:41:42
Andrew Wilmot
Thank you.
00:41:52
Pete (Karri)
Um, what those sets of features would be and what the kind of price sensitivity is like what the ideal price point is for such a product and just give real examples our existing users ask us whether it would be possible that it they can make digital payments with it touch to pay um would it be possible that it can play some form of extra content whether that be audiobooks music would it be possible to ah interact with a device with voice in order to get some form of knowledge or some form of navigation.
00:42:24
Pete (Karri)
And these are all things that we do like in theory, yes, in in in um principle, no problem. But then we're talking about a different set of ah bill of material, different price. And I would be really interested to hear from your listeners what they think is The limitations perhaps of what a messenger to could do up to the age of nine and then what you might want to then see in ah a device that's for the next age group range.
00:42:50
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, absolutely brilliant. And yeah, listeners, you can always get in touch at our website, the dopamine slot machine.co.uk or half you just end up with my my phone number from various smartphone free childhood groups and message my me directly, which I absolutely love.
00:43:05
Andrew Wilmot
So if you do have any feedback for Carrie for Pete, then absolutely do get in touch. We'll forward is it on over any thoughts, any, any opinions on what a messenger three for nine to 13 year olds really needs.
00:43:19
Andrew Wilmot
the the initial things that sort jumped up in my mind was like, um music player, but actually, is that a need?
00:43:24
Pete (Karri)
Yeah.
00:43:27
Andrew Wilmot
I don't know. I'll have to think about that.
00:43:30
Pete (Karri)
It's probably ah if it in the needs and wants hierarchy, it's probably more of a want than need. But let's be honest, it's probably what a lot of children of that age would then like to have the option to have um i can just reflect on it a little bit when we when we talk about that with parents of younger children they even worry that content like music is a distraction when the child is out and about and the last thing you want for your young child is to be distracted um when they're supposed to be in the real world. That's something you maybe worry less about as your child gets into their teenage years. So then you may be feeling much more comfortable about the idea that they can listen to an audio book or a podcast like this one or some music.
00:44:10
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah. The only other thing I can think of is is a group chat, but then even that ends up opening all sorts of all sorts of issues. But I'm going to stop myself here. And what we'll do is we'll get you on. We'll get you on again in time for the launch of the Bessinger 3. And we'll return to all of these and and have ah have another chat about what it is that ah is going into the next one.
00:44:34
Andrew Wilmot
The next hypothetical one, I should say, this is, I don't want to mislead anyone.
00:44:37
Pete (Karri)
Yeah, next hypothetical one. yeah
00:44:40
Andrew Wilmot
Anyway, thank you so much, Pete. This is all we've got time for today. Thank you so much for joining us, both yourself, Pete, and the listeners who tuned in. Please make sure to check out The Carry, particularly The Messenger 2. It's a genuinely novel approach.
00:44:53
Andrew Wilmot
And with The Messenger 2 shipping in June, there's a pretty hefty discount. My listeners know that I'm pretty radical when it comes to being anti-screens, anti-tech. um Not anti-tech. art I mean, I worked in tech my entire life. We do play video games with our children. um But this is the sort of, genuinely, the sort of device that I would be considering for my, and will consider for my children.
00:45:17
Andrew Wilmot
But for now, don't forget that if you've got any questions for myself or Pete, or if you or your children have been impacted by any of the issues we've discussed today, that you can get in touch on our website, thedopamineslopmachine.co.uk, and all links can be found in our artist profile, and we'd love to hear from you.
00:45:32
Andrew Wilmot
This has been The Dopamine Slop Machine. Thank you, and see you soon.