Transcript
Speaker: Hey everybody, welcome to the Exit Podcast.
Speaker: Today I've got Harry Bergeron.
Speaker: He's the founder of Pluribus, a cancellation insurance provider.
Speaker: He started the business with a couple of the guys from Exit, so I wanted to get him on the show to talk about that process and why this thing that he's working on is important to the big picture.
Speaker: So welcome, Harry.
Speaker: Awesome, thanks for having me.
Speaker: So first of all, what's Pluribus?
Speaker: Tell us about it.
Speaker: The thought behind Pluribus began when I'm kind of witnessing
Speaker: The things that everyone else are witnessing and everybody kind of being coerced into this group think.
Speaker: And I was wondering, I want the opposite of what's happening now.
Speaker: So instead of this, I kind of just kind of had one sentence in my head.
Speaker: And if what we're looking at is centralized coercion into consensus from above, I thought what would be the opposite of that?
Speaker: And it would be decentralized support for individualism from below or individualism or dissent.
Speaker: So this was a couple of years ago and I had been kind of going through the conceptual groundwork and rewriting things and taking things out and putting them in
Speaker: But anyway, I had finally, I was tracking your group exit for a while when I first heard that it happened on Twitter and I was keeping tabs on it.
Speaker: So I had a previous potential co-founder I was working with and that didn't work out for a couple of reasons.
Speaker: Just, you know, the past couple of years have been hard on a lot of people and he was one of them.
Speaker: So it didn't really make sense to proceed.
Speaker: But anyway, I thought that your group and my
Speaker: the goals of your group and myself were very much aligned.
Speaker: So I joined and shot the idea by a couple of guys that I thought might be interested.
Speaker: And, you know, within a matter of two months and everything, we had a small team working on it.
Speaker: And that's what we've been doing for the past few months.
Speaker: So you mentioned decentralized support from below.
Speaker: How do you provide that decentralized support?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I realized I did not answer that the first time you, the first time you asked.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: The idea is right now when something bad happens to someone or they get canceled, they just rapidly try to crowdfund something after the fact.
Speaker: Say, hey, donate to my GoFundMe and then the GoFundMe is taken away anyway.
Speaker: Or they just start hawking merch and they come up with a half clever phrase to put on a t-shirt and just ask people to buy it just because they got to do what they got to do.
Speaker: So the idea is to do crowdfunding proactively.
Speaker: So how it works is
Speaker: since cancellation means different things to different people, the person who would like to be insured or protected against cancellation would articulate to their followers what scenario they would like protection against.
Speaker: Their followers would pledge to donate if that happens.
Speaker: No money leaves their account on the spot.
Speaker: It's just a financial commitment to do so if certain circumstances pass.
Speaker: If that day does come, then the recipients that
Speaker: sends a message to everybody, says, hey, it finally happened.
Speaker: You guys can see the news.
Speaker: This is a legitimate circumstance.
Speaker: I'm going to execute this policy that we both agreed to in the terms, and all your pledges will be activated.
Speaker: And that way, the funds get released, and they have a safety net waiting for them.
Speaker: So the idea behind it
Speaker: is the sword hanging over everybody's head, the only power it has is the implied damage if it falls.
Speaker: You know, you're scared of the sword of Damocles because if it hits your chest, it stabs you.
Speaker: But if it didn't, and it just kind of gave you a nick, then when people tell you to do things, you don't necessarily have to be inclined to go along with it.
Speaker: So are these funds held in escrow?
Speaker: Is there a blockchain element to it?
Speaker: How does the financial pledge work?
Speaker: So as of now, this is really still in the very, very beginning stages.
Speaker: Blockchain, I have this whole paper written about a lot of different Web3 concepts and how it could work as a DAO and a lot of different mechanisms behind that.
Speaker: That will come in time.
Speaker: As of right now, we're just trying to get the bare minimum and even maybe not necessarily even be 100% functional, but just spread around to a couple of creators who we think might be interested just to at least deliver the concept of how it works.
Speaker: So as far as the blockchain stuff, it's definitely going to have to be integrated because eventually
Speaker: Once this is successful enough, all the conventional avenues are going to be shut off.
Speaker: We're proceeding with that in mind.
Speaker: So right now it's, you know, entering your, and this is again, very base layer.
Speaker: First thing out of many, we're not taking one avenue for any part of the project.
Speaker: We're keeping as many open as possible.
Speaker: The initial thing will probably just be saving credit card information.
Speaker: And, and, you know, so we have that on file.
Speaker: And then when the day comes, we would activate it.
Speaker: And then that's how the funds are processed.
Speaker: But again, we're looking at, at alternative ways to do this as well, including the escrow thing.
Speaker: How do you get paid?
Speaker: How are, how do you monetize this?
Speaker: Ah, good question.
Speaker: So there's, again, this is another thing where there's a lot of options in front of us.
Speaker: So one option.
Speaker: is if you look at GoFundMe or Patreon, really their entire model is just taking a 5% cut of each donation.
Speaker: Actually, GoFundMe is so big now, they literally just run on tips as of like three years ago.
Speaker: But Patreon is just 5% flat fee.
Speaker: They actually have tiers now.
Speaker: But again, the point is that their entire model is taking a cut of the transaction.
Speaker: So that's an option.
Speaker: I'm not even sure if we'll necessarily go with it.
Speaker: We have to bounce it off people if that's off-putting to them and they're really against it, might not.
Speaker: Anyway, another option would be in order to open up a quote-unquote policy.
Speaker: And by the way, when I use these words, it's not literal insurance.
Speaker: It's de facto insurance.
Speaker: So we are not an insurance company.
Speaker: We provide a venue in which individuals engage in transactions that mimic the effects of insurance.
Speaker: So that also helps with jumping through the hoops of all the regulations in all 50 states and everything.
Speaker: So one option would be to have creators pay either monthly or yearly fee, kind of like how you do with an insurance premium, except much, much cheaper than that.
Speaker: But still, if you maybe pay, and again, these prices are very flexible, but I'm just throwing it up, but just take a conversation, five bucks a month or 10 bucks a month or, you know,
Speaker: $80 a year, whatever it ends up being.
Speaker: So way cheaper than regular insurance.
Speaker: And, you know, the money that will actually be coming in, you know, you have an expense of 100 bucks a year or whatever.
Speaker: I know I just said 80, but whatever.
Speaker: But, you know, the money that's coming in, I think will be well worth it.
Speaker: And then one other thing, and this is getting maybe a couple of steps ahead, but for people who may not
Speaker: Chris Hickman, There's a lot of people who hate this cancellation shit most people, but most people aren't as tapped into it as you and I am.
Speaker: Chris Hickman, So people that just would like to donate to quote unquote the cause just like people donate to anything hey thanks for buying this bag of groceries would you like to donate to greenpeace or whatever.
Speaker: So I think an option for that would be to offer a subscription to people.
Speaker: Again, maybe like a $5 a month thing and assure them, hey, this $5 a month is going towards a, what would be a general matching pool that would enhance the effect of other people's donations.
Speaker: So people that don't want to be that involved, but are like, hey, this drives me nuts and there's really nothing that I can do about it.
Speaker: Sure, I'll pay five bucks a month
Speaker: just because I want to help.
Speaker: There's a couple of, not to ramble, but there's a couple of test cases where you can see how much built up energy there is with, I don't know if you remember like the, we build the wall or yeah, we build the, we'll build the wall thing on GoFundMe and it raised $20 million, which I think was like half a scam.
Speaker: But I mean, the point is that people did it when there's an opportunity.
Speaker: the Canadian truckers before they get caught off.
Speaker: So if people say, Hey, I can, I'll steadily give a small amount of money a month.
Speaker: If that helps fight this shit, that would be another, another route.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, it's, it's a really cool idea.
Speaker: So I want to talk about the, the process of getting started.
Speaker: So you, you jumped into the group and you're not a code guy.
Speaker: As far as I know, you don't, you don't program, right?
Speaker: That is correct.
Speaker: That is certainly correct.
Speaker: So you had this situation where you had the idea, but you needed the technical support.
Speaker: So how did you go about finding those guys?
Speaker: So I would, like a creep, just scan through the messages and different of the exit group on Slack.
Speaker: And I would go to different channels and I would listen to what people are saying or the introductions.
Speaker: Hi, my name is so people just kind of posting like a semi resume.
Speaker: So I would kind of have a list attached to that and then reach out to people.
Speaker: Hey, I have this thing.
Speaker: Feel free to blow me off if you want.
Speaker: Like you're right.
Speaker: But I just want to see if you're interested.
Speaker: I need people to work on it.
Speaker: I think it'll be really cool and rewarding.
Speaker: And there were also a couple other guys that I knew from
Speaker: a different group that I was in that I kept in touch with.
Speaker: And that kind of started coming together over the course of maybe a month and a half, two months.
Speaker: Yeah, we talked about this in the full group call yesterday about your project and a couple of others.
Speaker: To me, that's what I get excited about is I want the guys to be finding each other and starting projects together.
Speaker: So that's
Speaker: something that I want to make easier and more sort of expected that that's what you do.
Speaker: It's been really cool to watch that thing grow up in inside the group.
Speaker: So tell me about why this matters to you personally.
Speaker: It's difficult to answer in a short version, because I don't like there are so many things to dislike that bother me, and we don't have enough time.
Speaker: I'm just not somebody who can, I mean, I'm really not that unique as far as the way that I look at this stuff.
Speaker: Because like I said, this bugs everybody.
Speaker: I just have never been one to let anything go, which is not a great characteristic to have, but I think we'll end up being beneficial in this circumstance.
Speaker: But also, you know, even outside of the, you know,
Speaker: standard political culture war stuff.
Speaker: Beyond that, I pay attention to just kind of the whole trajectory of humanity.
Speaker: So even though I would politically, I want my side and my values to quote unquote, when beyond that, if things are allowed to continue,
Speaker: The human race is NGMI.
Speaker: Like it's not great.
Speaker: So I was just kind of thinking, I'm seeing people who are objectively inferior morally and intellectually take down and push away good, smart people that could help.
Speaker: And, you know, we see the results.
Speaker: So I just, you know, kind of sat and stewed and seized for like a year or two.
Speaker: And eventually this kind of came out of it as my way to remedy that, hopefully.
Speaker: Because I think, I mean, I'm in the incentive alignment business and my incentives, I think, are aligned with the situation as a whole.
Speaker: And I think it will be able to do good things.
Speaker: Yeah, you wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago about heroism.
Speaker: And I thought a lot about that.
Speaker: The need for heroism, but also the need to create circumstances in which not everybody has to be a hero.
Speaker: Like you hear a lot of these conversations, especially among like MAGA types that like, if we all just say no at once, if we all just storm the Bastille at once, you know, they can't,
Speaker: They can't stop us.
Speaker: There's more of us than there are of them, which all of that is true.
Speaker: Theoretically, if we were to do that, that would work.
Speaker: But there's a reason nobody's doing that.
Speaker: There's a reason it's not happening.
Speaker: And so the purpose of your thing and also to an extent my thing
Speaker: is to create enough security to overcome these disincentives that are placed in the way of speaking the truth enough that some core, some kernel of the society can say no, can reject what we're being asked to do.
Speaker: And then potentially that creates security.
Speaker: a greater sphere of, of security and more people go on.
Speaker: And then it's a preference cascade.
Speaker: What do you think, like, what is your, your big dream for this thing?
Speaker: Like, where do you think this leads?
Speaker: So first off, I just have to touch on all the points that you said that aligned with my thinking exactly.
Speaker: I mean, it's a game theoretic problem.
Speaker: You can't just say, Hey,
Speaker: If we all cooperate at the same time, we'll win.
Speaker: You can say those words, but it's not going to happen.
Speaker: So it's not, you know, that helpful.
Speaker: But everything runs by people running cost benefit analysis.
Speaker: And the exit project is, hey, you'll have less leverage over you if people aren't over you, literally, and you're self-sufficient and you're doing your own thing.
Speaker: And mine is, you know, almost going about it in a
Speaker: in a different way, but very, very similar.
Speaker: Just reducing the leverage held over people.
Speaker: So long-term, and especially with the whole heroism thing, and there's, you brought up the term preference cascade.
Speaker: And my idea is that we're much, people have been hoping for one forever, and it doesn't pan out just because of the penalties that are associated with it.
Speaker: So my hope is that if you facilitate the conditions for emergent heroism and kind of bring it up from instead of 0.2 people out of 100, maybe one, then that has massive effects.
Speaker: The scenario that I always point to,
Speaker: is when Jordan Peterson shot to fame, which he has qualities of his own that people gravitated to, and it's not just this event in particular, but it was just a video of him telling a bunch of college kids, shut the fuck up.
Speaker: You don't know what you're talking, shut the fuck up.
Speaker: And everybody likes it so much.
Speaker: They're like, what's the, I need, I just, I'll Google this guy, I'll watch his videos, I'll learn about Jesus and Carl Jung.
Speaker: This is the greatest thing ever.
Speaker: So it really, it just takes a couple of circumstances to break free.
Speaker: And I think a lot of people are looking for an excuse to do so.
Speaker: Like if you're on, you know, those insane news stories where a, like a rapist will be sent to a woman's prison because they'll be like, I'm a chick.
Speaker: And then that happens.
Speaker: So maybe the judge is a lunatic herself or himself, but probably herself.
Speaker: But, um, but maybe that's, maybe that's an issue, but everyone else in the courtroom is, is like screaming through their eyes.
Speaker: Like, is anybody going to stop this whatsoever?
Speaker: It is the same thing with the MMA match.
Speaker: When the referee says start in his head, he's like this dude, this is wild.
Speaker: Like, I can't believe this is happening.
Speaker: So anyway, that's to get away from, uh, from your question.
Speaker: So the long-term hope is again, triggering that, that preference cascade, um,
Speaker: And I mean, it's like the supply chain issue and that's just a cascading failure.
Speaker: So, you know, I think we have the social version of the supply chain.
Speaker: It's incredibly fragile, but the fragility is hidden.
Speaker: So a couple of heroic acts would be like, you know, Beijing shutting down a couple of major ports and then it ends up affecting everything.
Speaker: So that's really the major hope.
Speaker: And honestly, I think once this begins to scale and, you know, we start with a small batch of people at first, but then they get their followers and then it expands and then we can start offering more protections.
Speaker: Then that starts momentum that I think will be difficult to stop because the only reason why we're in this circumstance in the first place is because the incentive landscape has been purposely tilted against us.
Speaker: the trillions and trillions of dollars to make sure that we can't win.
Speaker: So if you just start to kind of balance it out, then the rest of it starts to take care of itself.
Speaker: That was an incredibly rambling answer and I apologize.
Speaker: No, no.
Speaker: Long answers are good.
Speaker: Give me long answers.
Speaker: I want to explore your thinking.
Speaker: This is good.
Speaker: So, yeah, and you mentioned a couple of things, but like, so to me, why this is so important is because we are, so I read a couple of books by Charles Murray, who he writes about race and gender and all of the no-no subjects.
Speaker: And he's like, you know, I'm a tenured guy at Harvard, and even if I were to somehow get fired from Harvard, like, I have a big enough audience that I can say what I want.
Speaker: And he prefaced one of his books, like,
Speaker: I am writing this book to give you guys top cover to have a conversation that needs to happen.
Speaker: And I think about the conversations that need to happen.
Speaker: We're at this crisis point where we have sort of bought off a lot of these resentments for decades now.
Speaker: with the welfare system, with affirmative action, with all these things, the contradictions of that system are starting to collapse.
Speaker: So we have to have a conversation about these things.
Speaker: And if we don't, I mean, things might burn down even if we do have the conversation, but they're definitely going to burn down if we don't.
Speaker: And so what are the specific...
Speaker: Maybe what are the things that you think are the most important to be said that are not being said because of this fear?
Speaker: Oh, boy.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: First of all, I'd agree.
Speaker: I mean, I obviously agree with what you said.
Speaker: And I think that one of the reasons why I'm anti-blackfilling is because we haven't really tried that.
Speaker: many things.
Speaker: I know it feels like we have, but we haven't.
Speaker: Like, I can't believe it.
Speaker: We can't possibly win.
Speaker: Well, what have you done to try to win?
Speaker: Because you voted for a guy that you thought might help you, and then you tweeted a lot?
Speaker: Like, there really hasn't been, I mean, that conversation that you're talking about, it's genuinely, and I know why people don't do it, because it's uncomfortable, but, dude,
Speaker: There's 350 million people in this country.
Speaker: It is wild.
Speaker: Nobody's actually sat down and like actually tried to hash it out.
Speaker: So those situations that you referred to is obviously a conversation that we need to have.
Speaker: We really need to remake.
Speaker: I think we really need to remake the entire civil religion that we live under.
Speaker: I mean, it maybe had its purpose at one time, but these stories don't make sense anymore.
Speaker: And there's, we need to make new stories.
Speaker: And I kind of zooming out from an even, nobody talks to the American people like they're adults, or at least nobody in any official capacity.
Speaker: It's literally just empty platitudes.
Speaker: So I wonder if anybody really leveled with us and actually said,
Speaker: Hey guys, okay, here's the thing.
Speaker: We might be passing through the great filter of the Fermi paradox by mid-century.
Speaker: Maybe they don't necessarily have to say that, but we need a project.
Speaker: What are we all doing here with our lives?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I think about our relationship between men and women is so screwed up right now.
Speaker: And we, and, and it, a lot of it stems from, uh, you know, I, I know a lot of guys who can't, uh, find a girl that they vibe with because they're, they're looking for a guy.
Speaker: Like they're looking for somebody to like drink beer and play video games.
Speaker: And, you know, just is, is a man effective psychologically.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: And we don't have a cultural vocabulary to like appreciate femininity like at all.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Either men or women.
Speaker: And so, and you can't, and, and, and that's why I think it's, you know, with, with this trans thing, the debate, you know, we've got this gotcha line, which is you just ask any of these politicians or, or, or commentators, what's a woman.
Speaker: Like, oh, that person's a woman?
Speaker: What makes them a woman?
Speaker: In what way are they a woman?
Speaker: What's a woman?
Speaker: And in one sense, that's like this gotcha just because it exposes a contradiction in their philosophy.
Speaker: But also, seriously, our consensus conversation, there's no comprehension of...
Speaker: what sex is and like what it means.
Speaker: And so everybody's confused.
Speaker: And that's another area where I feel like, again, we're not even trying and just, I get why, but it's still weird that there hasn't been more prominent conversations.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That whole, it's very difficult to, I mean, just this whole activist class of whether it's a trans or race or this or fat activists and everything,
Speaker: So that's obviously a problem, but let's say that, you know, the whole circumstances politically changed radically and all that stuff went out the door.
Speaker: What are they going to do with their lives?
Speaker: Like, cause that's what they do.
Speaker: Like they wake up in the morning and they complain and they make normal people unhappy.
Speaker: So, so you have to tell them, you have to tell them a story that's just like, it's not exciting to be like, Hey, you got to stop just,
Speaker: like just broadcasting your mental illness to everybody and just go to work.
Speaker: Like that doesn't sound fun.
Speaker: So it's weird to try to feel them away.
Speaker: But the whole, yeah, the whole relationship and gender thing, it's doubly, it's extra hard just because, you know, women are kind of more communal by nature.
Speaker: So when these memes start getting spread around, they're affected more than men.
Speaker: And as men for, I know that we're accused of hating women, but we don't.
Speaker: And like, so our instinct, when you just see a large man that is trans kind of intimidating a woman, like your instinct is to like protect her.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And just like, you want to help because you're a nice guy.
Speaker: And also, I mean, it's kind of the same thing in war too.
Speaker: Like besides the obvious, you know, physical capacity differences, you know,
Speaker: But if you're in a firefight and like a woman's getting shot at, you're going to want to help her.
Speaker: And that's going to fuck up the mission.
Speaker: So people don't talk about bad enough.
Speaker: I mean, it's, I don't have a conversation for it just like anyone else.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The fat thing is, is such an important conversation because that, I mean, I really feel like, you know, you look at, you look at the declines in testosterone and fertility and,
Speaker: I don't think that's all down to obesity, but I think a lot of it is.
Speaker: And that's an existential threat to humanity.
Speaker: Like, like we, we have got, we cannot survive with whatever is making us this fat and this, uh, chemically unhealthy.
Speaker: And, and, and yeah, the fact that the fact that it's a mean conversation, uh,
Speaker: is insanity.
Speaker: And part of it is, I think when it's such a threatened conversation, when it's a conversation sort of at gunpoint, the only people who are willing to have that conversation right now are people who are like plus two standard deviations, like disagreeable.
Speaker: Or they've got something going on with them that makes them... It tends to be a lot more vitriolic than it needs to be.
Speaker: It tends to be a lot more in your face maybe than it needs to be.
Speaker: I actually see this as instead of empowering the most hostile voices, I see it as we need to get normal people, decent people, people who are...
Speaker: friendly and, and would like to help people, we need to get them safe so they can get back into this conversation and, and settle things down and find a real solution.
Speaker: And so like, I, I, you know, maybe, maybe that makes me sound like more of a moderate than I am, but, but I do think that you have to get, and part of, part of exit is,
Speaker: is I want to get guys who have responsibilities and families and commitments, I want to get them back into the conversation because the political landscape cannot be defined by...
Speaker: confirmed bachelors and childless women.
Speaker: Like that's, but that is who, that is who dominates the debate right now because that's who has the time.
Speaker: That's who has the freedom.
Speaker: Like if they, if they piss somebody off and lose their job, you know, there's no like kid who doesn't get braces or whatever.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I think, I think you have to restore that, that the health to discourse so that normal people can show up to it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I mean, touching on the, the fat thing, like you, there's no, it's very difficult or to see how you could be a happy, well-adjusted person when you're, you know, the size that a lot of these folks, people are like, I've, I've never been that, but I've been pretty out of shape and I'm a completely different person.
Speaker: I'm, I'm depressed, miserable.
Speaker: I, you know, just kind of resent others.
Speaker: So like it changes you physiologically and it makes it very difficult to, to, you know, kind of get on the right path.
Speaker: But you're right.
Speaker: The, you, you don't want, at least from an optics perspective, the first people in that conversation to be like the only people that are big enough assholes to actually do it.
Speaker: And just be like, listen, here's the deal.
Speaker: Like, it's, it's just not a good look.
Speaker: And then again, then turns the ratchet further left.
Speaker: They're like, my God, I don't want to be with that guy.
Speaker: I'd rather help the woman who's getting yelled at.
Speaker: It's also extra hard because they start the conversation by screaming at you.
Speaker: You don't walk into a room meeting a new person neutrally.
Speaker: There's just a whole world in their heads that makes them loathe you.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: I mean, it's hard, but again, I think this is another thing where once you get a couple of situations,
Speaker: the conceptual landscape starts to broaden and things don't, like, you know how the four minute mile used to be thought to be impossible to break.
Speaker: And then what's the space Roger Bannister did it.
Speaker: And now I'm not sure how many people have done it, but a lot more have.
Speaker: So people thought it was impossible and then somebody actually did it and they're like, okay, well maybe, maybe this isn't so insane after all.
Speaker: And we can at least give it a shot.
Speaker: I, that's just kind of a metaphor.
Speaker: I think of a lot.
Speaker: Yeah, we're breaking land speed records over here.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and I think you mentioned being talked to like adults, politicians talking to people like adults.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, you know, I don't have any love for Putin.
Speaker: I'm not like a Putin booster.
Speaker: But when he gave that speech justifying the invasion of Ukraine, I was struck by how
Speaker: he's like talking about history and like, he's talking about like policy.
Speaker: Like he's, he, it was an adult conversation that he, or he was speaking to an adult audience and it wasn't just like rah, rah, like, you know, we're going to go fight the terrorist enemy or whatever.
Speaker: Like, I don't think in my sort of conscious, like as long as I've been aware of,
Speaker: I don't think a politician has spoken to an American politician has spoken to people in that way.
Speaker: And it was, it was very strange to see.
Speaker: And like, again, it's like you, you, you can admire that thing about him.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, like, wouldn't it be cool to have a leadership that, that, that leveled with you and that, and, and, you know, it could be, you know, he's, he's clearly making a case for, you know,
Speaker: invading another country.
Speaker: It's not like he's, there may be more going on than what he's saying, but he's at least respecting them enough to address them on that level.
Speaker: I had the exact same reaction and thoughts behind that.
Speaker: And again, I'm no fan of Putin myself.
Speaker: I'll say the obligatory, hey, you guys, I don't like Putin's
Speaker: But if somebody is listening to this and they're willing to just, you know, assume that I do, I don't like them anyway.
Speaker: So we're not going to be friends.
Speaker: So that's fine.
Speaker: I'll find, I'll find some way to live with it.
Speaker: So yeah, I had the exact same reaction and it wasn't framed as, as I mean, there, there are moral components to it, but this whole histrionic purely moral,
Speaker: That video that that woman made about she wished that she was Putin's mother so he'd know that he was loved like people.
Speaker: He could suckle at her breast and just experience the warmth of human kindness.
Speaker: That was outrageous to me.
Speaker: It was, yeah, and it was such a microcosm of how people feel about that stuff, let alone...
Speaker: I mean, just the amount of massive death and destruction we've caused in the past whatever years.
Speaker: But yeah, it wasn't framed in emotional terms.
Speaker: It wasn't, it was, yeah, it was just like a geopolitical, hey guys, this is the deal.
Speaker: This is the historical situation.
Speaker: We're doing it this way.
Speaker: And you know, you couldn't, I understand why people would prefer the way we do things.
Speaker: Like I would prefer being nice and do things for nice people and do things from a moral perspective.
Speaker: Well, you live in a world where people don't.
Speaker: So you're going to have to grow the fuck up and get out of the way of people who are willing to do so because regardless of your emotions about the situation, you're just irresponsible to the point where you're now willing to launch a nuclear war because these memes.
Speaker: like like there is this this angle of like as long as you are not physically violent you can never be the aggressor and like so so passive aggression uh becomes the way that almost everything gets done uh and it's it's you know i don't want to be too reductive about it but like there there is like this um
Speaker: patriarchy versus gynocracy uh element to this which is you know uh he's he's he's a bad guy because he's doing it with tanks and we're the good guys because we're doing it with lawyers and banking and social media and that i just there's something so like weaselly about that to me it just makes my skin crawl yeah and it's um
Speaker: And having effects that, you know, affect millions of people in Russia and make their life shittier.
Speaker: And just, like, you know those... Like random gymnasts and, like, symphony conductors and... Like, or a picture of, like, Alexander Ovechkin with Putin.
Speaker: They're like, why are you with Putin?
Speaker: Because he's the best hockey player in the world.
Speaker: He lives in Russia.
Speaker: Putin ruled he's the head of Russia.
Speaker: Haven't you heard?
Speaker: Like, people are genuinely shocked that Russian...
Speaker: like the person in charge of their own country and they just can't morally map that people have different circumstances so yeah and that's a weird one because i think it's so obvious how damaging non-physical uh aggression can be but that's um i mean i'm just speculating here but you know if somebody brought this argument to light in a very prominent fashion uh and they had power then
Speaker: they could affect institutions in a way to actually address this problem.
Speaker: Again, that's years down the line, but this is kind of the stuff where, hey, if somebody starts bringing this up and we get the ball rolling, like I would rather get the shit beat out of me once a week for a year than have somebody take away all of my social status and my ability to feed myself.
Speaker: Like, it's a much, much worse, more evil thing.
Speaker: And yeah, I mean, I completely agree.
Speaker: And I think everybody kind of tacitly understands that, but nobody's really brought it to the surface.
Speaker: And it's wild.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so we've...
Speaker: what we're trying to accomplish, I guess, is to the, the fact that it's these passive aggressive tools, like the fact that, that, you know, so far, uh, they, they can't just send the police to, to, to wreck your shit.
Speaker: You know, when you say the wrong thing, um, it means that they have to use these particular channels of coercion, like,
Speaker: they don't have unlimited power to coerce.
Speaker: They have these specific channels that they are legally and optically permitted to use.
Speaker: And so that's a, like that's a weakness for us in one sense, because it makes it really hard to wake up regular people.
Speaker: It's, it's, it's hard to like, well, I don't know if it's hard, but like you, you kind of have to have like a one-on-one conversation to like make a case.
Speaker: Like, look, this is why,
Speaker: you hate your job and why the political system is so screwed up.
Speaker: Like they don't have a theory for how this happened.
Speaker: They're just like the, the, the pink hairs at colleges went crazy for no reason out of nowhere.
Speaker: And why can't we go back to the way things were under Reagan, you know?
Speaker: And you have to like, you have to like connect all these dots for them of like, why, you know, how, how,
Speaker: Reagan was adding to the problem and kicking it down the road, but it was a problem that's existed for decades, decades and decades.
Speaker: And so what we have to do in the place of waking everybody up individually, I think, is you have to create space for the big conversation to happen in the ether, in the air.
Speaker: And like, that's starting to happen.
Speaker: I mean, that's what Tucker's doing, bringing like Moldbug on his show.
Speaker: You know, it's crazy to like connect the dots from like Moldbug was on Tucker and he was also on BAP and he was also on Alex Kishuda.
Speaker: And like, we're finding ways to integrate the people with the real ideas to the sort of media substrate that we need to access.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think people get discouraged because like, how are you supposed to convince everybody or the majority of people?
Speaker: You don't need to, and you're not going to, but you can convince a higher percentage that exists right now.
Speaker: And, but it is incredibly difficult because just like the energy investment to like, when you tell somebody, you know, a fact about, about how things work, you're not, they don't just, you can't just learn the fact and that's it.
Speaker: you have to completely rewire the, your entire model of the world.
Speaker: And it's, it does take time and it's, you know, and I'm in a very, um, the amount of curiosity and amount of time I'm willing to spend understanding things is not, uh, common.
Speaker: And it's taken a long, long time for me to, for it to sink in as well.
Speaker: Um, by the way, I always thought when, uh, when, uh,
Speaker: Moldbug said, he started one of the entries with, I'm going to cure your brain of democracy.
Speaker: And it just, I remember how odd that sounded.
Speaker: And then it finished and it actually happened.
Speaker: And I've always thought it was the intellectual equivalent of Babe Ruth calling a home run.
Speaker: I'm going to fucking knock, I'm going to knock this, dude, in 45 minutes or maybe a couple of days, you won't believe in democracy.
Speaker: Watch.
Speaker: I'm just going to make it.
Speaker: You know what did it for me from him was America is a communist country.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: The first time I read that, I was like, that's the craziest nonsense that I've ever read, America is a communist country.
Speaker: And then...
Speaker: And then by the end of that essay, I was like, oh no.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like nothing's more obvious.
Speaker: Nothing's more crystal clear than that.
Speaker: And I can't even get back into the headspace where that didn't make sense.
Speaker: Yeah, he's something special.
Speaker: And to be fair though, his at least public stated opinion is that this...
Speaker: this sort of HR gynecratic panopticon is not going away and we should just sort of roll with it.
Speaker: And so I feel like I'm wrestling with these Titans.
Speaker: I'm wrestling with these extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily big guys, including Moldbug, but also like BAP, who have this take on...
Speaker: where we are and where we're headed.
Speaker: And it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't feel quite right, but I also feel kind of stupid even trying to like argue with these guys.
Speaker: But, uh, it's, it's, uh, it's a source of a lot of, uh, a lot of frustration for me, basically like the last, the last three or four things that I've written, uh,
Speaker: uh, have been more or less addressed to those guys, at least addressed to their ideas.
Speaker: And like, I'm trying to trying to get my arms around it.
Speaker: Um, it's, you know, um, I'm, I'm used to feeling smart enough to, to pick up things.
Speaker: And, uh, and this is, this is a, it's a lot of effort.
Speaker: It's a lot of chewing.
Speaker: So it's kind of cool though.
Speaker: It's cool.
Speaker: It's cool to have smart people around.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's, I mean, that's kind of what got me, what drew me into the space to begin with, because I was listening to, you know, more prominent mainstream people.
Speaker: And I'm like, this doesn't spark my curiosity at all.
Speaker: Or I remember, like, in back in 2017 or 2018, when, you know, kind of the start of my journey, when I when I first heard of Jordan Peterson, and then I remember seeing an article that said Jordan Peterson is the dumb person's idea of a smart person.
Speaker: And I'm like, Oh, no,
Speaker: Like, I don't want to be stupid.
Speaker: So then I read the article and I'm like, I'm not stupid.
Speaker: You're stupid.
Speaker: I read the reasoning and I'm like, no, you're stupid.
Speaker: I'm smart.
Speaker: He's smart.
Speaker: We're better than you.
Speaker: Go away.
Speaker: So I just kind of follow my curiosity and like when, you know, you always try to make arguments against it in your head, you know, kind of just philosophize with a hammer, just attack, attack every idea that's thrown at you and see what's left.
Speaker: And, you know, you can do it in your sleep with kind of the stories that are presented by mainstream media.
Speaker: It's the easiest thing ever.
Speaker: And then you do this and you can still find maybe faults or whatever, but you can tell it's a much, much sturdier line of reasoning.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I mean, even then, like nobody really knows the solution, but the first step, the first step is, you know, diagnosing the specificities.
Speaker: I think that I said that right.
Speaker: Of the, of the problem.
Speaker: And then, um,
Speaker: And this is why I'm kind of doing the project I am protecting the people capable of generating those solutions.
Speaker: Yeah, they're not common, but they're extremely like precious, valuable people like if your house is burning down.
Speaker: and there's like 100 people in the house, and two of them know how to build a new house, you need to make sure that they don't get crushed by falling debris on the way out just because of the current house you're in sucks.
Speaker: If you're going to build a new one, you need those people.
Speaker: Yeah, I... Somebody...
Speaker: they phrase it as I ruled geniuses in, I don't rule geniuses out.
Speaker: So like, and people talk about, people talk about Jordan Peterson or BAP or mold bug, and they want to talk about like the three things that are like the easiest to attack the three things that those guys maybe get wrong or whatever.
Speaker: And it's like, first of all, I'm not sure that they got that wrong, but, but second of all,
Speaker: anybody who can light your mind up like that, even if they're wrong about some things, just the fact they supplied a new idea, a new model, the fact that they said some things that were true is such a rare commodity now.
Speaker: And yeah, you got to protect those people.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: So I like the way that... So my model is... What I'm doing is very much...
Speaker: like focused on the individual and pulling the individual kind of out and building network at that level, at like the business level.
Speaker: But you have this opportunity to do that at the narrative level, at the mass media level to protect those voices.
Speaker: So I think it's super cool, man.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Thanks.
Speaker: I mean, I'm definitely...
Speaker: I've put a lot of work into it over a long time.
Speaker: And you're talking about just kind of all these voices that are just breathtakingly intelligent.
Speaker: And you're like, so when I kind of started thinking about this, it took me maybe six months to even start doing it seriously.
Speaker: Because I'm like, somebody had to have thought of this already.
Speaker: There's no way that I could have possibly done it.
Speaker: But the only position I'm in is that I get to listen to all these voices and then synthesize them in my head.
Speaker: And then, you know, add and then kind of just make an original combination that they might not have just individually.
Speaker: So that's, that's been valuable.
Speaker: But what you've done with the group, man, has really been awesome to see.
Speaker: And just even the, it's difficult to kind of keep the consistency of the enthusiasm and usefulness in general, you know, enjoyment of a project over time.
Speaker: And you really have done a great job of that.
Speaker: And I just wanted to say that.
Speaker: Thanks, man.
Speaker: Thanks.
Speaker: That's a big part of the goal is to give people the fire that they need to kind of achieve escape velocity.
Speaker: And sometimes that does mean like the psychological encouragement of, you know,
Speaker: you're going to make it.
Speaker: But, but I think also one of the things I find so often is they can't find a small enough piece to bite off.
Speaker: They can't find, um, a minimum, minimum viable, a really small thing that they can do to move the ball.
Speaker: And the accountability calls are awesome for that because it's like, you know, we're going to go one week at a time.
Speaker: What can you do this week?
Speaker: And not like,
Speaker: Most of these guys have day jobs.
Speaker: So it's not like, what can you do in this week with, with 40 hours?
Speaker: It's what can you do this week in like two or three, but the guys actually do move the ball at that rate.
Speaker: They really do go ahead.
Speaker: Yeah, no, sorry.
Speaker: I didn't mean to interrupt what you're talking about the accountability column, the entrepreneurship calls and everything.
Speaker: Another good reminder is just like that.
Speaker: Everybody else is just like a human being doing their best.
Speaker: Just like you, like the word entrepreneur conjures an image of somebody who always has their shit together.
Speaker: and, you know, gives the right orders and does this and does that.
Speaker: And, but then you go on the calls and, you know, everybody, you know, everybody's very smart and competent, but they're like me.
Speaker: So it's very, it's very encouraging to see.
Speaker: They get tired.
Speaker: They forget what they signed up to do sometimes.
Speaker: They get sick.
Speaker: Somebody dies in the family.
Speaker: The disruptions happen, but you just come back when you come back and you keep moving the ball.
Speaker: And knowing that there's people in there who care about what you're doing.
Speaker: I mean, for me personally, when I'm talking about my business, which I do, I use the group just like everybody else does.
Speaker: And knowing that I'm going to have to be held accountable.
Speaker: Well, for starters, I, I, I'm three seconds away from the airborne, the army airborne two minute mile qualifier.
Speaker: It's 1554.
Speaker: I hit 1557.
Speaker: That was like nowhere near in reach for me before I started this group.
Speaker: But I got into the fitness call and I started posting pictures of the treadmill after each run.
Speaker: Just, and, and virtually all of like my best times are the calls on Wednesday nights and it's like Wednesday, 7 PM.
Speaker: That's when I'm able to do it.
Speaker: Cause like, I know I'm going to be in that call.
Speaker: And so I, I, you know, I don't want to look like an asshole.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: But it makes a real difference.
Speaker: It makes a real difference.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I'm kind of my own best customer in that respect.
Speaker: But it really, it's about the guys.
Speaker: You know, it's the, we have such cool guys.
Speaker: We have such a great crowd that I was, and that goes into like, that feeds into this thing we're talking about where Martyrmaid did a podcast recently where he was talking about like World War II and kind of the popular lies that we tell about World War II.
Speaker: And he was like,
Speaker: There are a lot of kids right now who are only able to get accurate information about certain topics from like Stormfront.
Speaker: And he's like, look, Stormfront is wrong about a lot of things.
Speaker: And so like they can't be
Speaker: the only source you can trust.
Speaker: Like a kid should not be getting lied to by his teachers and by his parents and by the news and by everybody else.
Speaker: And then be like, Oh wow, finally it snaps into place when he's on storm front.
Speaker: Like that's a really unhealthy situation for all of us to be in.
Speaker: And so, um, and so I, I was a little bit concerned when I started this thing that, um,
Speaker: that I would be attracting people who wanted to be like maximally hostile, maximally aggressive, maximally ideological.
Speaker: And I think part of the reason, like I, it didn't happen and I'm really grateful that it didn't happen, but it's taken me a while to figure out maybe exactly why.
Speaker: And I think it's because these guys who really, these guys who are responsible enough to care about like handling their exit, uh,
Speaker: like in this organized way and building something, they also tend not to be like, they don't have the same damage, you know, that a lot of these guys do.
Speaker: And, and, you know, I, I, I'm not a, if, if, if somebody, if somebody comes to me and they want help, I'm going to help them.
Speaker: And I don't care.
Speaker: Like I, there's no, there's no ideological line you can cross with me where I'm going to be like, Oh no, I'm glad Antifa got you.
Speaker: So, you know, I just want to be clear about that.
Speaker: But you have to have like a core of like regular guys.
Speaker: That's the only way this thing can work.
Speaker: And I think that generalizes way beyond my thing to this whole process.
Speaker: Like it has to appeal to and draw in saying conformist is too strong a word, but conformist
Speaker: Community minded people who don't have all day to read about politics, you know, who are there's a there's a certain level to which it's rational to believe what you're told, because like for most people, most of the time, it doesn't actually matter.
Speaker: Like, yeah.
Speaker: And like, then you have something to talk about at the water cooler at work.
Speaker: Um, and, and those people, like, I don't fault them for not being as dialed in as we are.
Speaker: It sucks that they're not, it makes the job harder, but like, I get it.
Speaker: So, so yeah, I'm, I'm rambling now, but like, that's, that's a big piece of what I want to do is to, and, and what you're doing too, you're empowering these people to speak in a way that makes them reachable, um,
Speaker: to a broader audience.
Speaker: It keeps them in the game instead of knocking them out because they got banned from Twitter or because, you know, whatever it is, they got their Patreon canceled.
Speaker: We keep them in the game and then they do become the people that go on Tucker.
Speaker: And then my dad sees them on Tucker and they talk about that.
Speaker: You know what I'm saying?
Speaker: Like there's this virtuous cycle to it.
Speaker: Yeah, and it also has a component to, it's a way, you can channel,
Speaker: channel negative energy towards positive ends.
Speaker: Like you can take your absolute fury at what's going on and just help people that you like, that are good, that you don't want bad things to happen to.
Speaker: So I think once people kind of start cooperating like that, it'll feel, you know, everybody likes being part of a group and we're primates and everything, but I think it's a, it's a positive form of tribalism.
Speaker: But real quick on the quality of guys and everything, I had the same fear, like when I got in, like I haven't held the political beliefs that I currently do for very long.
Speaker: So I really wasn't sure what I was going to get, but it's been reassuring, you know, not that I was wavering beforehand, but I was extra reassured.
Speaker: I'm like, no, what I'm doing and what I think is the right thing to do, because everybody in here are nice, thoughtful people.
Speaker: When I heard you on Alex's podcast, it was even interesting because I follow you on Twitter for like smart, like edgy, funny takes.
Speaker: But I didn't necessarily, it just turned out that you were a normal, well-balanced person.
Speaker: And I didn't necessarily expect that, which was fine.
Speaker: And I'm just like, even if you were like the weirdest dude ever, I was still like going to follow you because I like your shit.
Speaker: But I'm just like, oh, okay, no.
Speaker: And so this really is just normal people.
Speaker: So I completely agree.
Speaker: And a note on being normal overall, the kind of flame wars that have been going on on Twitter and these purity spirals, I think it's difficult for people in this, that are really deep in the space to know how batshit insane, like some conversations look.
Speaker: And it's not necessarily like, it's a completely different language.
Speaker: It's a complete, it's a different culture.
Speaker: It's speaking a different thing.
Speaker: So yeah, I don't really, I'm not really necessarily a fan when they attack anyone who engages in minimally pro-social behavior outside of right-wing Twitter.
Speaker: Like that has to happen.
Speaker: It's not a vice.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: But like, and this is my synthesis.
Speaker: This is how I bring it together in my own mind is that
Speaker: Part of having a healthy discourse is that there's this scratchpad character to it.
Speaker: You can think your own thoughts and write them down and puzzle them out for yourself, but if you can't bounce them off of the tribe, if you can't throw them out there...
Speaker: then you can't develop them in the way they need to be developed.
Speaker: No one person is going to solve any of these problems.
Speaker: They have to be solved through this evolutionary process of us chewing through some memes and thinking through what it all means together.
Speaker: And if those conversations can be just shut down, if that ferment can't take place,
Speaker: then you end up with this just like Soviet, like Brezhnev, like there's no movement, there's no growth.
Speaker: It's just sort of, we're just trying to keep the machines running as long as we can until they break and then we don't know how to fix them.
Speaker: It's so important to, and like, I guess what I'm saying is,
Speaker: the, the, the storm front conversation, even those guys, like I can think that it's bad for them to be the only source and the only thing that you go to.
Speaker: But like, I think it's good that people are allowed to say wild shit.
Speaker: Like I think they need to, because, because things come out of that that are good.
Speaker: Like there's, I think, I think people have, you know, it's funny.
Speaker: I feel like I'm talking like Ben Shapiro, like the marketplace of ideas or whatever.
Speaker: I don't believe in that, but I do think that people need to be able to talk.
Speaker: People need to be able to say things that are wrong.
Speaker: People need to be able to say things that are mean.
Speaker: We just can't have these rules because they shut down...
Speaker: who gets to decide what is shut down?
Speaker: That sort of locks in the ideology, the civic religion of the whole society, and it can never grow, it can never change.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I would believe in free speech under any circumstances, but the one steel man I could have from the other side is if the society was doing well and the people in charge of speech that are clamping down are running a tight ship and everything,
Speaker: But you can't say we can't talk when you suck.
Speaker: You ruin everything.
Speaker: You're stupid.
Speaker: You're rude.
Speaker: You're mean.
Speaker: You're like, you're just, I mean, you're just, you have so many bad qualities in one thing.
Speaker: It's shocking.
Speaker: And you're telling me that I can't talk when I'm actually coming up to a solution to a problem you caused.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: So, you know, like I said, this has kind of been like a long, mostly lonely journey for me that I haven't made a sense of last year.
Speaker: But that thought that I just expressed to you is like the fire that kind of keeps me going.
Speaker: Like if I'm ever kind of depressed by myself, I'm like, wait a minute.
Speaker: No, fuck that shit.
Speaker: And then I'll get back to work.
Speaker: Yeah, man, because we have to find solutions.
Speaker: We have to fix this thing.
Speaker: And that's...
Speaker: There's been this ongoing debate on Twitter recently about whether it makes sense to try to retake these institutions or escape them.
Speaker: And I think that's the wrong framing, first of all.
Speaker: I think you have to reduce your own attack surface is what you have to do.
Speaker: You're still gonna probably shop at Walmart and Amazon or whatever
Speaker: for some things that you need.
Speaker: It's not about withdrawing in any way that makes you weaker.
Speaker: It's just about how do I reduce the enemy's leverage over me personally and over my tribe?
Speaker: And so it's, yeah, you're not going to pull out of this thing.
Speaker: We have to solve these problems.
Speaker: We're not going to escape these problems.
Speaker: If we run into the woods,
Speaker: they're going to come and wake us.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: Like that's, that's the way it works.
Speaker: We have to solve these problems, which means we have to take back the culture and the right to speak, which means we have to soften the blow for these guys that are getting canceled because for every one of them that this happens to, there's 10,000 that, that get the message and shut up.
Speaker: Yep, that's the example that I used in my first sub stack.
Speaker: Even before everybody started getting obsessed with cancel culture, like when it really ramped up, it reminded me of those, I mean, I've only seen it in movies and stuff, but like in a concentration camp or something like that, when somebody tries to escape and the guards line everybody up and go, hey, this guy stole an apple or tried to escape, we got him.
Speaker: And then they shoot him in the head.
Speaker: They go, get back to work.
Speaker: as an example, exactly the same thing.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly the same thing.
Speaker: And it deters people.
Speaker: But the so one white pill, though, that and the reason why, again, I'm not when I say it's not as difficult as people think, I'm not saying it's easy.
Speaker: But I mean, so the people who have all of the money, and all the power, and have the culture in a fucking vice script, are terrified of you.
Speaker: Think about the implications of that and start thinking about why you would give up instead of actually start working towards a solution without thinking that it's wasted or hopeless or anything.
Speaker: Like it can work.
Speaker: It's not easy, but this can work.
Speaker: I mean, you look at who they're theoretically, like their top guy, the guy that they picked to run everything and his vice president.
Speaker: you look at the quad, like the, what's their bench like, you know, like this was, this is their hitter.
Speaker: This is their star hitter.
Speaker: What's their bench like?
Speaker: What, like how deep does this go?
Speaker: And, and you, you just cannot look at those people and be like, Oh, they're clamping down because they control everything.
Speaker: And they're so strong.
Speaker: They're clamping down because they're weak.
Speaker: They're clamping down because they're frightened.
Speaker: And, and you know, I, I, I've said this a couple of times,
Speaker: It's in many cases exactly the same people that ran the Clinton administration.
Speaker: And in the Clinton administration, you could pretty much say what you wanted.
Speaker: You could pretty much do what you wanted because they were strong.
Speaker: They were in control.
Speaker: There was no dangerous counter narrative for them to attack.
Speaker: And now they've become unbelievably vicious
Speaker: And it's not because they're stronger.
Speaker: They're watching it collapse around them.
Speaker: Yeah, it's definitely not a victory lap or anything like that because there's actually a kind of, maybe not a theory, but a frame I was thinking of the other week where, I mean, canceling people is their insurance policy.
Speaker: Like it's not plan A. Like the first thing is, the first plan is everybody get along and work towards a common goal.
Speaker: Okay, that didn't work.
Speaker: Step two is lie to everybody and convince them to do shit that benefits you willingly without them finding out.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: That's going to work.
Speaker: The insurance policy for that is cancellation.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And the, the one after that is killing you.
Speaker: Like, just, I mean, just to be frank, but like, that's why the second amendment exists because that's citizens insurance policy against their step four insurance policy.
Speaker: But we don't have an equivalent.
Speaker: We don't,
Speaker: If somebody comes to your house with guns, you have a gun.
Speaker: That's the answer.
Speaker: When somebody cancels you, there's a giant empty open space that hasn't been formed yet.
Speaker: So that's kind of the gap that I'm hoping to fill eventually.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's – what did he –
Speaker: One of the guys that I did a podcast with not that long ago, McCarthy, he sort of investigates domestic extremism for the government.
Speaker: So he's wired into some interesting circles and talks to some interesting people.
Speaker: And he said, I think the phrase he used was, they're watching all of their tools for narrative control fail in real time.
Speaker: Their ability to manufacture consent is collapsing.
Speaker: And so, yeah, they're scrambling because, frankly, they don't have the muscle to do this the hard way.
Speaker: It has to be done this way.
Speaker: And, you know, people can disagree about that.
Speaker: I'm sure that the three guys that listen to this podcast will tell me I'm being a cuck for saying that.
Speaker: But I really don't think they have the muscle.
Speaker: I really don't think they can.
Speaker: And, and, and so this, this becomes the fighting line.
Speaker: This becomes where the, where the fate of the country is decided, I think.
Speaker: So God willing, you and I get to be part of that.
Speaker: It's exciting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, it's the situation is, well, one real quick note on the, why they're in a shitty situation themselves.
Speaker: Also quality of personnel.
Speaker: the quality of people that want to control narratives are not the quality of people that, you know, want to be outside of that and try to create things.
Speaker: And that kind of degenerates while the other one grows in power.
Speaker: So, but yeah, I mean, besides that, exactly.
Speaker: There's a couple of situations that I think that are, that I wish could be different that would make my life a lot easier, but it's not going to happen.
Speaker: So second best thing is doing this.
Speaker: And I'm really happy to have gotten in touch with you and be part of the group.
Speaker: Thanks a lot, man.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's,
Speaker: It's a, it's an exciting time.
Speaker: And the guys who, the guys who complain about living now, instead of in some safer time, I, I, I frankly, I don't get it.
Speaker: Like, like you really wanted this, this constitutional puzzle box to like solve all the problems forever.
Speaker: And like, there wouldn't be a bad guy anymore.
Speaker: And like, so what were you going to do?
Speaker: Like, what were you just going to get a job and make money and die?
Speaker: Like, what was your, what was your,
Speaker: What's the adventure in that?
Speaker: What's cool about that to you?
Speaker: Like, I like that we get to fight.
Speaker: I like that we get to push back and that there's, there's real like frigging psychic vampire reptile bad guys to fight.
Speaker: I think that's cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, it literally is.
Speaker: I mean, it's literally just fighting evil people.
Speaker: Like it's really, it's what it comes down to.
Speaker: Ultimate metaphysical evil.
Speaker: Yeah, so you get to be part of that story.
Speaker: So, I mean, you can, you know, wish you had a little bit more money or whatever, but besides that, you know, quit your bitching.
Speaker: It's pretty freaking rad.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, you know, since 1945, we've been in a little bit of a dream, but besides that, literally everybody else, it's just been pure struggle.
Speaker: So you're gonna, it's just funny.
Speaker: Having a human being born in the universe going, but I don't want to struggle.
Speaker: Like that's just what, but that's just what it is though.
Speaker: So you don't get an option.
Speaker: It's not like you're not at a restaurant.
Speaker: You don't have, you can't hold the struggle.
Speaker: You're just going to have one.
Speaker: So if you're going to struggle, do it well.
Speaker: Amen.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Well, this has been an awesome conversation.
Speaker: Check, check Harry out at becomepluribus.com.
Speaker: It's still in the sort of sign up to wait and learn more stage, but really exciting project.
Speaker: We can't wait to watch it unfold.
Speaker: Becomepluribus.com.
Speaker: And if you want to check us out at exit, you can check us out at exitgroup.us.
Speaker: Thanks, Harry.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Take care.
