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EXIT Podcast Episode 34: Cancellation Insurance (feat. Harry Bergeron)
444 Plays3 years ago
Harry is an EXIT member, and founder of becomepluribus.com, a product to help insure content creators against the threat of cancellation through pledged contributions. We discuss how he got the project off the ground without Learning to Code, and the huge downstream impacts that are possible from projects like these.
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Transcript
Introduction to Exit Podcast and Harry Bergeron
00:00:17
Speaker
Hey everybody, welcome to the Exit Podcast.
00:00:19
Speaker
Today I've got Harry Bergeron.
00:00:20
Speaker
He's the founder of Pluribus, a cancellation insurance provider.
00:00:24
Speaker
He started the business with a couple of the guys from Exit, so I wanted to get him on the show to talk about that process and why this thing that he's working on is important to the big picture.
00:00:34
Speaker
So welcome, Harry.
00:00:35
Speaker
Awesome, thanks for having me.
The Concept and Vision Behind Pluribus
00:00:37
Speaker
So first of all, what's Pluribus?
00:00:38
Speaker
Tell us about it.
00:00:40
Speaker
The thought behind Pluribus began when I'm kind of witnessing
00:00:44
Speaker
The things that everyone else are witnessing and everybody kind of being coerced into this group think.
00:00:50
Speaker
And I was wondering, I want the opposite of what's happening now.
00:00:54
Speaker
So instead of this, I kind of just kind of had one sentence in my head.
00:01:01
Speaker
And if what we're looking at is centralized coercion into consensus from above, I thought what would be the opposite of that?
00:01:09
Speaker
And it would be decentralized support for individualism from below or individualism or dissent.
00:01:17
Speaker
So this was a couple of years ago and I had been kind of going through the conceptual groundwork and rewriting things and taking things out and putting them in
00:01:27
Speaker
But anyway, I had finally, I was tracking your group exit for a while when I first heard that it happened on Twitter and I was keeping tabs on it.
00:01:36
Speaker
So I had a previous potential co-founder I was working with and that didn't work out for a couple of reasons.
00:01:46
Speaker
Just, you know, the past couple of years have been hard on a lot of people and he was one of them.
00:01:50
Speaker
So it didn't really make sense to proceed.
00:01:52
Speaker
But anyway, I thought that your group and my
00:01:57
Speaker
the goals of your group and myself were very much aligned.
00:02:00
Speaker
So I joined and shot the idea by a couple of guys that I thought might be interested.
00:02:06
Speaker
And, you know, within a matter of two months and everything, we had a small team working on it.
00:02:10
Speaker
And that's what we've been doing for the past few months.
Decentralized Support through Pluribus
00:02:13
Speaker
So you mentioned decentralized support from below.
00:02:16
Speaker
How do you provide that decentralized support?
00:02:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:20
Speaker
So I realized I did not answer that the first time you, the first time you asked.
00:02:26
Speaker
So,
00:02:27
Speaker
The idea is right now when something bad happens to someone or they get canceled, they just rapidly try to crowdfund something after the fact.
00:02:37
Speaker
Say, hey, donate to my GoFundMe and then the GoFundMe is taken away anyway.
00:02:42
Speaker
Or they just start hawking merch and they come up with a half clever phrase to put on a t-shirt and just ask people to buy it just because they got to do what they got to do.
00:02:50
Speaker
So the idea is to do crowdfunding proactively.
00:02:55
Speaker
So how it works is
00:02:57
Speaker
since cancellation means different things to different people, the person who would like to be insured or protected against cancellation would articulate to their followers what scenario they would like protection against.
00:03:12
Speaker
Their followers would pledge to donate if that happens.
00:03:16
Speaker
No money leaves their account on the spot.
00:03:18
Speaker
It's just a financial commitment to do so if certain circumstances pass.
00:03:23
Speaker
If that day does come, then the recipients that
00:03:27
Speaker
sends a message to everybody, says, hey, it finally happened.
00:03:31
Speaker
You guys can see the news.
00:03:32
Speaker
This is a legitimate circumstance.
00:03:35
Speaker
I'm going to execute this policy that we both agreed to in the terms, and all your pledges will be activated.
00:03:43
Speaker
And that way, the funds get released, and they have a safety net waiting for them.
00:03:47
Speaker
So the idea behind it
00:03:50
Speaker
is the sword hanging over everybody's head, the only power it has is the implied damage if it falls.
00:03:58
Speaker
You know, you're scared of the sword of Damocles because if it hits your chest, it stabs you.
Development and Future of Pluribus
00:04:03
Speaker
But if it didn't, and it just kind of gave you a nick, then when people tell you to do things, you don't necessarily have to be inclined to go along with it.
00:04:15
Speaker
So are these funds held in escrow?
00:04:18
Speaker
Is there a blockchain element to it?
00:04:22
Speaker
How does the financial pledge work?
00:04:25
Speaker
So as of now, this is really still in the very, very beginning stages.
00:04:32
Speaker
Blockchain, I have this whole paper written about a lot of different Web3 concepts and how it could work as a DAO and a lot of different mechanisms behind that.
00:04:42
Speaker
That will come in time.
00:04:44
Speaker
As of right now, we're just trying to get the bare minimum and even maybe not necessarily even be 100% functional, but just spread around to a couple of creators who we think might be interested just to at least deliver the concept of how it works.
00:05:01
Speaker
So as far as the blockchain stuff, it's definitely going to have to be integrated because eventually
00:05:06
Speaker
Once this is successful enough, all the conventional avenues are going to be shut off.
00:05:11
Speaker
We're proceeding with that in mind.
00:05:13
Speaker
So right now it's, you know, entering your, and this is again, very base layer.
00:05:20
Speaker
First thing out of many, we're not taking one avenue for any part of the project.
00:05:24
Speaker
We're keeping as many open as possible.
00:05:27
Speaker
The initial thing will probably just be saving credit card information.
00:05:31
Speaker
And, and, you know, so we have that on file.
00:05:34
Speaker
And then when the day comes, we would activate it.
00:05:38
Speaker
And then that's how the funds are processed.
00:05:40
Speaker
But again, we're looking at, at alternative ways to do this as well, including the escrow thing.
Monetization Strategies and Philosophical Approach
00:05:46
Speaker
How do you get paid?
00:05:47
Speaker
How are, how do you monetize this?
00:05:49
Speaker
Ah, good question.
00:05:50
Speaker
So there's, again, this is another thing where there's a lot of options in front of us.
00:05:57
Speaker
So one option.
00:05:59
Speaker
is if you look at GoFundMe or Patreon, really their entire model is just taking a 5% cut of each donation.
00:06:10
Speaker
Actually, GoFundMe is so big now, they literally just run on tips as of like three years ago.
00:06:15
Speaker
But Patreon is just 5% flat fee.
00:06:17
Speaker
They actually have tiers now.
00:06:19
Speaker
But again, the point is that their entire model is taking a cut of the transaction.
00:06:25
Speaker
So that's an option.
00:06:27
Speaker
I'm not even sure if we'll necessarily go with it.
00:06:29
Speaker
We have to bounce it off people if that's off-putting to them and they're really against it, might not.
00:06:35
Speaker
Anyway, another option would be in order to open up a quote-unquote policy.
00:06:42
Speaker
And by the way, when I use these words, it's not literal insurance.
00:06:45
Speaker
It's de facto insurance.
00:06:48
Speaker
So we are not an insurance company.
00:06:50
Speaker
We provide a venue in which individuals engage in transactions that mimic the effects of insurance.
00:06:57
Speaker
So that also helps with jumping through the hoops of all the regulations in all 50 states and everything.
00:07:03
Speaker
So one option would be to have creators pay either monthly or yearly fee, kind of like how you do with an insurance premium, except much, much cheaper than that.
00:07:15
Speaker
But still, if you maybe pay, and again, these prices are very flexible, but I'm just throwing it up, but just take a conversation, five bucks a month or 10 bucks a month or, you know,
00:07:26
Speaker
$80 a year, whatever it ends up being.
00:07:28
Speaker
So way cheaper than regular insurance.
00:07:32
Speaker
And, you know, the money that will actually be coming in, you know, you have an expense of 100 bucks a year or whatever.
00:07:38
Speaker
I know I just said 80, but whatever.
00:07:41
Speaker
But, you know, the money that's coming in, I think will be well worth it.
00:07:45
Speaker
And then one other thing, and this is getting maybe a couple of steps ahead, but for people who may not
00:07:55
Speaker
Chris Hickman, There's a lot of people who hate this cancellation shit most people, but most people aren't as tapped into it as you and I am.
00:08:01
Speaker
Chris Hickman, So people that just would like to donate to quote unquote the cause just like people donate to anything hey thanks for buying this bag of groceries would you like to donate to greenpeace or whatever.
00:08:16
Speaker
So I think an option for that would be to offer a subscription to people.
00:08:22
Speaker
Again, maybe like a $5 a month thing and assure them, hey, this $5 a month is going towards a, what would be a general matching pool that would enhance the effect of other people's donations.
00:08:37
Speaker
So people that don't want to be that involved, but are like, hey, this drives me nuts and there's really nothing that I can do
Community Support and Societal Impact
00:08:43
Speaker
about it.
00:08:43
Speaker
Sure, I'll pay five bucks a month
00:08:45
Speaker
just because I want to help.
00:08:50
Speaker
There's a couple of, not to ramble, but there's a couple of test cases where you can see how much built up energy there is with, I don't know if you remember like the, we build the wall or yeah, we build the, we'll build the wall thing on GoFundMe and it raised $20 million, which I think was like half a scam.
00:09:09
Speaker
But I mean, the point is that people did it when there's an opportunity.
00:09:13
Speaker
the Canadian truckers before they get caught off.
00:09:14
Speaker
So if people say, Hey, I can, I'll steadily give a small amount of money a month.
00:09:19
Speaker
If that helps fight this shit, that would be another, another route.
00:09:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:26
Speaker
Well, it's, it's a really cool idea.
00:09:28
Speaker
So I want to talk about the, the process of getting started.
00:09:32
Speaker
So you, you jumped into the group and you're not a code guy.
00:09:38
Speaker
As far as I know, you don't, you don't program, right?
00:09:41
Speaker
That is correct.
00:09:42
Speaker
That is certainly correct.
00:09:43
Speaker
So you had this situation where you had the idea, but you needed the technical support.
00:09:48
Speaker
So how did you go about finding those guys?
00:09:50
Speaker
So I would, like a creep, just scan through the messages and different of the exit group on Slack.
00:10:03
Speaker
And I would go to different channels and I would listen to what people are saying or the introductions.
00:10:07
Speaker
Hi, my name is so people just kind of posting like a semi resume.
00:10:12
Speaker
So I would kind of have a list attached to that and then reach out to people.
00:10:18
Speaker
Hey, I have this thing.
00:10:20
Speaker
Feel free to blow me off if you want.
00:10:21
Speaker
Like you're right.
00:10:22
Speaker
But I just want to see if you're interested.
00:10:24
Speaker
I need people to work on it.
00:10:26
Speaker
I think it'll be really cool and rewarding.
00:10:28
Speaker
And there were also a couple other guys that I knew from
00:10:33
Speaker
a different group that I was in that I kept in touch with.
00:10:36
Speaker
And that kind of started coming together over the course of maybe a month and a half, two months.
00:10:43
Speaker
Yeah, we talked about this in the full group call yesterday about your project and a couple of others.
00:10:50
Speaker
To me, that's what I get excited about is I want the guys to be finding each other and starting projects together.
00:10:57
Speaker
So that's
00:10:59
Speaker
something that I want to make easier and more sort of expected that that's what you do.
00:11:05
Speaker
It's been really cool to watch that thing grow up in inside the group.
00:11:09
Speaker
So tell me about why this matters to you personally.
00:11:13
Speaker
It's difficult to answer in a short version, because I don't like there are so many things to dislike that bother me, and we don't have enough time.
00:11:27
Speaker
I'm just not somebody who can, I mean, I'm really not that unique as far as the way that I look at this stuff.
00:11:37
Speaker
Because like I said, this bugs everybody.
00:11:39
Speaker
I just have never been one to let anything go, which is not a great characteristic to have, but I think we'll end up being beneficial in this circumstance.
00:11:51
Speaker
But also, you know, even outside of the, you know,
00:11:54
Speaker
standard political culture war stuff.
00:11:58
Speaker
Beyond that, I pay attention to just kind of the whole trajectory of humanity.
00:12:05
Speaker
So even though I would politically, I want my side and my values to quote unquote, when beyond that, if things are allowed to continue,
00:12:18
Speaker
The human race is NGMI.
00:12:21
Speaker
Like it's not great.
00:12:25
Speaker
So I was just kind of thinking, I'm seeing people who are objectively inferior morally and intellectually take down and push away good, smart people that could help.
00:12:40
Speaker
And, you know, we see the results.
00:12:42
Speaker
So I just, you know, kind of sat and stewed and seized for like a year or two.
00:12:48
Speaker
And eventually this kind of came out of it as my way to remedy that, hopefully.
00:12:56
Speaker
Because I think, I mean, I'm in the incentive alignment business and my incentives, I think, are aligned with the situation as a whole.
00:13:07
Speaker
And I think it will be able to do good things.
00:13:11
Speaker
Yeah, you wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago about heroism.
00:13:17
Speaker
And I thought a lot about that.
00:13:18
Speaker
The need for heroism, but also the need to create circumstances in which not everybody has to be a hero.
00:13:27
Speaker
Like you hear a lot of these conversations, especially among like MAGA types that like, if we all just say no at once, if we all just storm the Bastille at once, you know, they can't,
00:13:41
Speaker
They can't stop us.
00:13:43
Speaker
There's more of us than there are of them, which all of that is true.
00:13:46
Speaker
Theoretically, if we were to do that, that would work.
00:13:49
Speaker
But there's a reason nobody's doing that.
00:13:52
Speaker
There's a reason it's not happening.
00:13:55
Speaker
And so the purpose of your thing and also to an extent my thing
00:14:03
Speaker
is to create enough security to overcome these disincentives that are placed in the way of speaking the truth enough that some core, some kernel of the society can say no, can reject what we're being asked to do.
00:14:25
Speaker
And then potentially that creates security.
00:14:28
Speaker
a greater sphere of, of security and more people go on.
00:14:31
Speaker
And then it's a preference cascade.
Long-term Goals and Societal Shifts
00:14:33
Speaker
What do you think, like, what is your, your big dream for this thing?
00:14:39
Speaker
Like, where do you think this leads?
00:14:41
Speaker
So first off, I just have to touch on all the points that you said that aligned with my thinking exactly.
00:14:48
Speaker
I mean, it's a game theoretic problem.
00:14:50
Speaker
You can't just say, Hey,
00:14:52
Speaker
If we all cooperate at the same time, we'll win.
00:14:55
Speaker
You can say those words, but it's not going to happen.
00:14:57
Speaker
So it's not, you know, that helpful.
00:15:00
Speaker
But everything runs by people running cost benefit analysis.
00:15:05
Speaker
And the exit project is, hey, you'll have less leverage over you if people aren't over you, literally, and you're self-sufficient and you're doing your own thing.
00:15:16
Speaker
And mine is, you know, almost going about it in a
00:15:20
Speaker
in a different way, but very, very similar.
00:15:23
Speaker
Just reducing the leverage held over people.
00:15:27
Speaker
So long-term, and especially with the whole heroism thing, and there's, you brought up the term preference cascade.
00:15:37
Speaker
And my idea is that we're much, people have been hoping for one forever, and it doesn't pan out just because of the penalties that are associated with it.
00:15:48
Speaker
So my hope is that if you facilitate the conditions for emergent heroism and kind of bring it up from instead of 0.2 people out of 100, maybe one, then that has massive effects.
00:16:06
Speaker
The scenario that I always point to,
00:16:09
Speaker
is when Jordan Peterson shot to fame, which he has qualities of his own that people gravitated to, and it's not just this event in particular, but it was just a video of him telling a bunch of college kids, shut the fuck up.
00:16:24
Speaker
You don't know what you're talking, shut the fuck up.
00:16:28
Speaker
And everybody likes it so much.
00:16:30
Speaker
They're like, what's the, I need, I just, I'll Google this guy, I'll watch his videos, I'll learn about Jesus and Carl Jung.
00:16:37
Speaker
This is the greatest thing ever.
00:16:39
Speaker
So it really, it just takes a couple of circumstances to break free.
00:16:43
Speaker
And I think a lot of people are looking for an excuse to do so.
00:16:48
Speaker
Like if you're on, you know, those insane news stories where a, like a rapist will be sent to a woman's prison because they'll be like, I'm a chick.
00:17:00
Speaker
And then that happens.
00:17:02
Speaker
So maybe the judge is a lunatic herself or himself, but probably herself.
00:17:09
Speaker
But, um, but maybe that's, maybe that's an issue, but everyone else in the courtroom is, is like screaming through their eyes.
00:17:18
Speaker
Like, is anybody going to stop this whatsoever?
00:17:21
Speaker
It is the same thing with the MMA match.
00:17:23
Speaker
When the referee says start in his head, he's like this dude, this is wild.
00:17:28
Speaker
Like, I can't believe this is happening.
00:17:30
Speaker
So anyway, that's to get away from, uh, from your question.
00:17:33
Speaker
So the long-term hope is again, triggering that, that preference cascade, um,
00:17:39
Speaker
And I mean, it's like the supply chain issue and that's just a cascading failure.
00:17:45
Speaker
So, you know, I think we have the social version of the supply chain.
00:17:50
Speaker
It's incredibly fragile, but the fragility is hidden.
00:17:54
Speaker
So a couple of heroic acts would be like, you know, Beijing shutting down a couple of major ports and then it ends up affecting everything.
00:18:03
Speaker
So that's really the major hope.
00:18:05
Speaker
And honestly, I think once this begins to scale and, you know, we start with a small batch of people at first, but then they get their followers and then it expands and then we can start offering more protections.
00:18:17
Speaker
Then that starts momentum that I think will be difficult to stop because the only reason why we're in this circumstance in the first place is because the incentive landscape has been purposely tilted against us.
00:18:31
Speaker
the trillions and trillions of dollars to make sure that we can't win.
00:18:37
Speaker
So if you just start to kind of balance it out, then the rest of it starts to take care of itself.
00:18:42
Speaker
That was an incredibly rambling answer and I apologize.
00:18:45
Speaker
No, no.
00:18:46
Speaker
Long answers are good.
00:18:47
Speaker
Give me long answers.
00:18:48
Speaker
I want to explore your thinking.
00:18:50
Speaker
This
Narratives and Civil Religion Challenges
00:18:51
Speaker
is good.
00:18:51
Speaker
So, yeah, and you mentioned a couple of things, but like, so to me, why this is so important is because we are, so I read a couple of books by Charles Murray, who he writes about race and gender and all of the no-no subjects.
00:19:10
Speaker
And he's like, you know, I'm a tenured guy at Harvard, and even if I were to somehow get fired from Harvard, like, I have a big enough audience that I can say what I want.
00:19:20
Speaker
And he prefaced one of his books, like,
00:19:24
Speaker
I am writing this book to give you guys top cover to have a conversation that needs to happen.
00:19:29
Speaker
And I think about the conversations that need to happen.
00:19:34
Speaker
We're at this crisis point where we have sort of bought off a lot of these resentments for decades now.
00:19:43
Speaker
with the welfare system, with affirmative action, with all these things, the contradictions of that system are starting to collapse.
00:19:51
Speaker
So we have to have a conversation about these things.
00:19:56
Speaker
And if we don't, I mean, things might burn down even if we do have the conversation, but they're definitely going to burn down if we don't.
00:20:04
Speaker
And so what are the specific...
00:20:09
Speaker
Maybe what are the things that you think are the most important to be said that are not being said because of this fear?
00:20:18
Speaker
Oh, boy.
00:20:19
Speaker
All right.
00:20:21
Speaker
First of all, I'd agree.
00:20:25
Speaker
I mean, I obviously agree with what you said.
00:20:27
Speaker
And I think that one of the reasons why I'm anti-blackfilling is because we haven't really tried that.
00:20:33
Speaker
many things.
00:20:34
Speaker
I know it feels like we have, but we haven't.
00:20:37
Speaker
Like, I can't believe it.
00:20:38
Speaker
We can't possibly win.
00:20:40
Speaker
Well, what have you done to try to win?
00:20:41
Speaker
Because you voted for a guy that you thought might help you, and then you tweeted a lot?
00:20:46
Speaker
Like, there really hasn't been, I mean, that conversation that you're talking about, it's genuinely, and I know why people don't do it, because it's uncomfortable, but, dude,
00:20:56
Speaker
There's 350 million people in this country.
00:20:58
Speaker
It is wild.
00:21:00
Speaker
Nobody's actually sat down and like actually tried to hash it out.
00:21:06
Speaker
So those situations that you referred to is obviously a conversation that we need to have.
00:21:15
Speaker
We really need to remake.
00:21:17
Speaker
I think we really need to remake the entire civil religion that we live under.
Gender Dynamics and Cultural Understanding
00:21:22
Speaker
I mean, it maybe had its purpose at one time, but these stories don't make sense anymore.
00:21:29
Speaker
And there's, we need to make new stories.
00:21:32
Speaker
And I kind of zooming out from an even, nobody talks to the American people like they're adults, or at least nobody in any official capacity.
00:21:44
Speaker
It's literally just empty platitudes.
00:21:46
Speaker
So I wonder if anybody really leveled with us and actually said,
00:21:51
Speaker
Hey guys, okay, here's the thing.
00:21:56
Speaker
We might be passing through the great filter of the Fermi paradox by mid-century.
00:22:01
Speaker
Maybe they don't necessarily have to say that, but we need a project.
00:22:06
Speaker
What are we all doing here with our lives?
00:22:09
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think about our relationship between men and women is so screwed up right now.
00:22:20
Speaker
And we, and, and it, a lot of it stems from, uh, you know, I, I know a lot of guys who can't, uh, find a girl that they vibe with because they're, they're looking for a guy.
00:22:34
Speaker
Like they're looking for somebody to like drink beer and play video games.
00:22:38
Speaker
And, you know, just is, is a man effective psychologically.
00:22:43
Speaker
And, um,
00:22:45
Speaker
And we don't have a cultural vocabulary to like appreciate femininity like at all.
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:53
Speaker
Either men or women.
00:22:55
Speaker
And so, and you can't, and, and, and that's why I think it's, you know, with, with this trans thing, the debate, you know, we've got this gotcha line, which is you just ask any of these politicians or, or, or commentators, what's a woman.
00:23:11
Speaker
Like, oh, that person's a woman?
00:23:13
Speaker
What makes them a woman?
00:23:14
Speaker
In what way are they a woman?
00:23:15
Speaker
What's a woman?
00:23:17
Speaker
And in one sense, that's like this gotcha just because it exposes a contradiction in their philosophy.
00:23:26
Speaker
But also, seriously, our consensus conversation, there's no comprehension of...
00:23:38
Speaker
what sex is and like what it means.
00:23:41
Speaker
And so everybody's confused.
00:23:43
Speaker
And that's another area where I feel like, again, we're not even trying and just, I get why, but it's still weird that there hasn't been more prominent conversations.
00:23:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:57
Speaker
That whole, it's very difficult to, I mean, just this whole activist class of whether it's a trans or race or this or fat activists and everything,
00:24:09
Speaker
So that's obviously a problem, but let's say that, you know, the whole circumstances politically changed radically and all that stuff went out the door.
00:24:19
Speaker
What are they going to do with their lives?
00:24:21
Speaker
Like, cause that's what they do.
00:24:23
Speaker
Like they wake up in the morning and they complain and they make normal people unhappy.
00:24:29
Speaker
So, so you have to tell them, you have to tell them a story that's just like, it's not exciting to be like, Hey, you got to stop just,
00:24:38
Speaker
like just broadcasting your mental illness to everybody and just go to work.
00:24:42
Speaker
Like that doesn't sound fun.
00:24:43
Speaker
So it's weird to try to feel them away.
00:24:46
Speaker
But the whole, yeah, the whole relationship and gender thing, it's doubly, it's extra hard just because, you know, women are kind of more communal by nature.
00:25:01
Speaker
So when these memes start getting spread around, they're affected more than men.
00:25:08
Speaker
And as men for, I know that we're accused of hating women, but we don't.
Health Issues and Societal Standards
00:25:14
Speaker
And like, so our instinct, when you just see a large man that is trans kind of intimidating a woman, like your instinct is to like protect her.
00:25:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:26
Speaker
And just like, you want to help because you're a nice guy.
00:25:30
Speaker
And also, I mean, it's kind of the same thing in war too.
00:25:33
Speaker
Like besides the obvious, you know, physical capacity differences, you know,
00:25:36
Speaker
But if you're in a firefight and like a woman's getting shot at, you're going to want to help her.
00:25:42
Speaker
And that's going to fuck up the mission.
00:25:44
Speaker
So people don't talk about bad enough.
00:25:46
Speaker
I mean, it's, I don't have a conversation for it just like anyone else.
00:25:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:51
Speaker
The fat thing is, is such an important conversation because that, I mean, I really feel like, you know, you look at, you look at the declines in testosterone and fertility and,
00:26:04
Speaker
I don't think that's all down to obesity, but I think a lot of it is.
00:26:10
Speaker
And that's an existential threat to humanity.
00:26:14
Speaker
Like, like we, we have got, we cannot survive with whatever is making us this fat and this, uh, chemically unhealthy.
00:26:28
Speaker
And, and, and yeah, the fact that the fact that it's a mean conversation, uh,
00:26:35
Speaker
is insanity.
00:26:40
Speaker
And part of it is, I think when it's such a threatened conversation, when it's a conversation sort of at gunpoint, the only people who are willing to have that conversation right now are people who are like plus two standard deviations, like disagreeable.
00:27:03
Speaker
Or they've got something going on with them that makes them... It tends to be a lot more vitriolic than it needs to be.
00:27:11
Speaker
It tends to be a lot more in your face maybe than it needs to be.
00:27:16
Speaker
I actually see this as instead of empowering the most hostile voices, I see it as we need to get normal people, decent people, people who are...
Family Perspectives in Political Discourse
00:27:32
Speaker
friendly and, and would like to help people, we need to get them safe so they can get back into this conversation and, and settle things down and find a real solution.
00:27:43
Speaker
And so like, I, I, you know, maybe, maybe that makes me sound like more of a moderate than I am, but, but I do think that you have to get, and part of, part of exit is,
00:27:56
Speaker
is I want to get guys who have responsibilities and families and commitments, I want to get them back into the conversation because the political landscape cannot be defined by...
00:28:13
Speaker
confirmed bachelors and childless women.
00:28:15
Speaker
Like that's, but that is who, that is who dominates the debate right now because that's who has the time.
00:28:22
Speaker
That's who has the freedom.
00:28:23
Speaker
Like if they, if they piss somebody off and lose their job, you know, there's no like kid who doesn't get braces or whatever.
00:28:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:32
Speaker
So I think, I think you have to restore that, that the health to discourse so that normal people can show up to it.
00:28:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:43
Speaker
And I mean, touching on the, the fat thing, like you, there's no, it's very difficult or to see how you could be a happy, well-adjusted person when you're, you know, the size that a lot of these folks, people are like, I've, I've never been that, but I've been pretty out of shape and I'm a completely different person.
00:29:06
Speaker
I'm, I'm depressed, miserable.
00:29:10
Speaker
I, you know, just kind of resent others.
00:29:12
Speaker
So like it changes you physiologically and it makes it very difficult to, to, you know, kind of get on the right path.
00:29:19
Speaker
But you're right.
00:29:21
Speaker
The, you, you don't want, at least from an optics perspective, the first people in that conversation to be like the only people that are big enough assholes to actually do it.
00:29:31
Speaker
And just be like, listen, here's the deal.
00:29:34
Speaker
Like, it's, it's just not a good look.
00:29:35
Speaker
And then again, then turns the ratchet further left.
00:29:38
Speaker
They're like, my God, I don't want to be with that guy.
00:29:40
Speaker
I'd rather help the woman who's getting yelled at.
00:29:42
Speaker
It's also extra hard because they start the conversation by screaming at you.
00:29:50
Speaker
You don't walk into a room meeting a new person neutrally.
00:29:54
Speaker
There's just a whole world in their heads that makes them loathe you.
00:29:58
Speaker
So yeah.
00:30:03
Speaker
I mean, it's hard, but again, I think this is another thing where once you get a couple of situations,
00:30:11
Speaker
the conceptual landscape starts to broaden and things don't, like, you know how the four minute mile used to be thought to be impossible to break.
00:30:20
Speaker
And then what's the space Roger Bannister did it.
00:30:22
Speaker
And now I'm not sure how many people have done it, but a lot more have.
00:30:27
Speaker
So people thought it was impossible and then somebody actually did it and they're like, okay, well maybe, maybe this isn't so insane after all.
00:30:36
Speaker
And we can at least give it a shot.
00:30:37
Speaker
I, that's just kind of a metaphor.
00:30:39
Speaker
I think of a lot.
00:30:41
Speaker
Yeah, we're breaking land speed records over here.
00:30:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:48
Speaker
Yeah, and I think you mentioned being talked to like adults, politicians talking to people like adults.
00:30:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:56
Speaker
And, you know, I don't have any love for Putin.
00:31:00
Speaker
I'm not like a Putin booster.
00:31:02
Speaker
But when he gave that speech justifying the invasion of Ukraine, I was struck by how
00:31:10
Speaker
he's like talking about history and like, he's talking about like policy.
00:31:14
Speaker
Like he's, he, it was an adult conversation that he, or he was speaking to an adult audience and it wasn't just like rah, rah, like, you know, we're going to go fight the terrorist enemy or whatever.
00:31:27
Speaker
Like, I don't think in my sort of conscious, like as long as I've been aware of,
00:31:37
Speaker
I don't think a politician has spoken to an American politician has spoken to people in that way.
00:31:43
Speaker
And it was, it was very strange to see.
00:31:45
Speaker
And like, again, it's like you, you, you can admire that thing about him.
00:31:53
Speaker
Right.
00:31:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:54
Speaker
Like, like, wouldn't it be cool to have a leadership that, that, that leveled with you and that, and, and, you know, it could be, you know, he's, he's clearly making a case for, you know,
00:32:07
Speaker
invading another country.
00:32:08
Speaker
It's not like he's, there may be more going on than what he's saying, but he's at least respecting them enough to address them on that level.
00:32:20
Speaker
I had the exact same reaction and thoughts behind that.
00:32:25
Speaker
And again, I'm no fan of Putin myself.
00:32:27
Speaker
I'll say the obligatory, hey, you guys, I don't like Putin's
00:32:32
Speaker
But if somebody is listening to this and they're willing to just, you know, assume that I do, I don't like them anyway.
Political Communication Styles
00:32:38
Speaker
So we're not going to be friends.
00:32:39
Speaker
So that's fine.
00:32:41
Speaker
I'll find, I'll find some way to live with it.
00:32:43
Speaker
So yeah, I had the exact same reaction and it wasn't framed as, as I mean, there, there are moral components to it, but this whole histrionic purely moral,
00:32:59
Speaker
That video that that woman made about she wished that she was Putin's mother so he'd know that he was loved like people.
00:33:10
Speaker
He could suckle at her breast and just experience the warmth of human kindness.
00:33:14
Speaker
That was outrageous to me.
00:33:16
Speaker
It was, yeah, and it was such a microcosm of how people feel about that stuff, let alone...
00:33:25
Speaker
I mean, just the amount of massive death and destruction we've caused in the past whatever years.
00:33:32
Speaker
But yeah, it wasn't framed in emotional terms.
00:33:34
Speaker
It wasn't, it was, yeah, it was just like a geopolitical, hey guys, this is the deal.
00:33:41
Speaker
This is the historical situation.
00:33:43
Speaker
We're doing it this way.
00:33:45
Speaker
And you know, you couldn't, I understand why people would prefer the way we do things.
00:33:50
Speaker
Like I would prefer being nice and do things for nice people and do things from a moral perspective.
00:33:55
Speaker
Well, you live in a world where people don't.
00:33:58
Speaker
So you're going to have to grow the fuck up and get out of the way of people who are willing to do so because regardless of your emotions about the situation, you're just irresponsible to the point where you're now willing to launch a nuclear war because these memes.
00:34:26
Speaker
like like there is this this angle of like as long as you are not physically violent you can never be the aggressor and like so so passive aggression uh becomes the way that almost everything gets done uh and it's it's you know i don't want to be too reductive about it but like there there is like this um
00:34:54
Speaker
patriarchy versus gynocracy uh element to this which is you know uh he's he's he's a bad guy because he's doing it with tanks and we're the good guys because we're doing it with lawyers and banking and social media and that i just there's something so like weaselly about that to me it just makes my skin crawl yeah and it's um
00:35:24
Speaker
And having effects that, you know, affect millions of people in Russia and make their life shittier.
Non-physical Aggression and Societal Interaction
00:35:30
Speaker
And just, like, you know those... Like random gymnasts and, like, symphony conductors and... Like, or a picture of, like, Alexander Ovechkin with Putin.
00:35:42
Speaker
They're like, why are you with Putin?
00:35:43
Speaker
Because he's the best hockey player in the world.
00:35:45
Speaker
He lives in Russia.
00:35:46
Speaker
Putin ruled he's the head of Russia.
00:35:47
Speaker
Haven't you heard?
00:35:48
Speaker
Like, people are genuinely shocked that Russian...
00:35:53
Speaker
like the person in charge of their own country and they just can't morally map that people have different circumstances so yeah and that's a weird one because i think it's so obvious how damaging non-physical uh aggression can be but that's um i mean i'm just speculating here but you know if somebody brought this argument to light in a very prominent fashion uh and they had power then
00:36:18
Speaker
they could affect institutions in a way to actually address this problem.
00:36:23
Speaker
Again, that's years down the line, but this is kind of the stuff where, hey, if somebody starts bringing this up and we get the ball rolling, like I would rather get the shit beat out of me once a week for a year than have somebody take away all of my social status and my ability to feed myself.
00:36:46
Speaker
Like, it's a much, much worse, more evil thing.
00:36:53
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, I completely agree.
00:36:56
Speaker
And I think everybody kind of tacitly understands that, but nobody's really brought it to the surface.
00:37:02
Speaker
And it's wild.
00:37:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:06
Speaker
And so we've...
Platforms for Big Societal Conversations
00:37:07
Speaker
what we're trying to accomplish, I guess, is to the, the fact that it's these passive aggressive tools, like the fact that, that, you know, so far, uh, they, they can't just send the police to, to, to wreck your shit.
00:37:22
Speaker
You know, when you say the wrong thing, um, it means that they have to use these particular channels of coercion, like,
00:37:32
Speaker
they don't have unlimited power to coerce.
00:37:34
Speaker
They have these specific channels that they are legally and optically permitted to use.
00:37:43
Speaker
And so that's a, like that's a weakness for us in one sense, because it makes it really hard to wake up regular people.
00:37:51
Speaker
It's, it's, it's hard to like, well, I don't know if it's hard, but like you, you kind of have to have like a one-on-one conversation to like make a case.
00:37:59
Speaker
Like, look, this is why,
00:38:01
Speaker
you hate your job and why the political system is so screwed up.
00:38:05
Speaker
Like they don't have a theory for how this happened.
00:38:07
Speaker
They're just like the, the, the pink hairs at colleges went crazy for no reason out of nowhere.
00:38:16
Speaker
And why can't we go back to the way things were under Reagan, you know?
00:38:21
Speaker
And you have to like, you have to like connect all these dots for them of like, why, you know, how, how,
00:38:28
Speaker
Reagan was adding to the problem and kicking it down the road, but it was a problem that's existed for decades, decades and decades.
00:38:36
Speaker
And so what we have to do in the place of waking everybody up individually, I think, is you have to create space for the big conversation to happen in the ether, in the air.
00:38:52
Speaker
And like, that's starting to happen.
00:38:54
Speaker
I mean, that's what Tucker's doing, bringing like Moldbug on his show.
00:38:58
Speaker
You know, it's crazy to like connect the dots from like Moldbug was on Tucker and he was also on BAP and he was also on Alex Kishuda.
00:39:09
Speaker
And like, we're finding ways to integrate the people with the real ideas to the sort of media substrate that we need to access.
00:39:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:21
Speaker
And I think people get discouraged because like, how are you supposed to convince everybody or the majority of people?
00:39:28
Speaker
You don't need to, and you're not going to, but you can convince a higher percentage that exists right now.
00:39:34
Speaker
And, but it is incredibly difficult because just like the energy investment to like, when you tell somebody, you know, a fact about, about how things work, you're not, they don't just, you can't just learn the fact and that's it.
00:39:48
Speaker
you have to completely rewire the, your entire model of the world.
00:39:53
Speaker
And it's, it does take time and it's, you know, and I'm in a very, um, the amount of curiosity and amount of time I'm willing to spend understanding things is not, uh, common.
00:40:08
Speaker
And it's taken a long, long time for me to, for it to sink in as well.
00:40:13
Speaker
Um, by the way, I always thought when, uh, when, uh,
00:40:17
Speaker
Moldbug said, he started one of the entries with, I'm going to cure your brain of democracy.
00:40:25
Speaker
And it just, I remember how odd that sounded.
00:40:28
Speaker
And then it finished and it actually happened.
00:40:31
Speaker
And I've always thought it was the intellectual equivalent of Babe Ruth calling a home run.
00:40:37
Speaker
I'm going to fucking knock, I'm going to knock this, dude, in 45 minutes or maybe a couple of days, you won't believe in democracy.
00:40:44
Speaker
Watch.
00:40:45
Speaker
I'm just going to make it.
00:40:49
Speaker
You know what did it for me from him was America is a communist country.
00:40:53
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:40:55
Speaker
The first time I read that, I was like, that's the craziest nonsense that I've ever read, America is a communist country.
00:41:04
Speaker
And then...
00:41:05
Speaker
And then by the end of that essay, I was like, oh no.
00:41:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:11
Speaker
Like nothing's more obvious.
00:41:13
Speaker
Nothing's more crystal clear than that.
00:41:16
Speaker
And I can't even get back into the headspace where that didn't make sense.
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah, he's something special.
00:41:25
Speaker
And to be fair though, his at least public stated opinion is that this...
00:41:35
Speaker
this sort of HR gynecratic panopticon is not going away and we should just sort of roll with it.
00:41:45
Speaker
And so I feel like I'm wrestling with these Titans.
00:41:50
Speaker
I'm wrestling with these extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily big guys, including Moldbug, but also like BAP, who have this take on...
00:42:05
Speaker
where we are and where we're headed.
00:42:08
Speaker
And it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't feel quite right, but I also feel kind of stupid even trying to like argue with these guys.
00:42:15
Speaker
But, uh, it's, it's, uh, it's a source of a lot of, uh, a lot of frustration for me, basically like the last, the last three or four things that I've written, uh,
00:42:27
Speaker
uh, have been more or less addressed to those guys, at least addressed to their ideas.
00:42:34
Speaker
And like, I'm trying to trying to get my arms around it.
00:42:38
Speaker
Um, it's, you know, um, I'm, I'm used to feeling smart enough to, to pick up things.
00:42:47
Speaker
And, uh, and this is, this is a, it's a lot of effort.
00:42:50
Speaker
It's a lot of chewing.
00:42:51
Speaker
So it's kind of cool though.
00:42:53
Speaker
It's cool.
00:42:53
Speaker
It's cool to have smart people around.
00:42:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:56
Speaker
And that's, I mean, that's kind of what got me, what drew me into the space to begin with, because I was listening to, you know, more prominent mainstream people.
00:43:04
Speaker
And I'm like, this doesn't spark my curiosity at all.
00:43:07
Speaker
Or I remember, like, in back in 2017 or 2018, when, you know, kind of the start of my journey, when I when I first heard of Jordan Peterson, and then I remember seeing an article that said Jordan Peterson is the dumb person's idea of a smart person.
00:43:23
Speaker
And I'm like, Oh, no,
00:43:25
Speaker
Like, I don't want to be stupid.
00:43:26
Speaker
So then I read the article and I'm like, I'm not stupid.
00:43:30
Speaker
You're stupid.
00:43:32
Speaker
I read the reasoning and I'm like, no, you're stupid.
00:43:35
Speaker
I'm smart.
00:43:36
Speaker
He's smart.
00:43:38
Speaker
We're better than you.
00:43:39
Speaker
Go away.
00:43:41
Speaker
So I just kind of follow my curiosity and like when, you know, you always try to make arguments against it in your head, you know, kind of just philosophize with a hammer, just attack, attack every idea that's thrown at you and see what's left.
00:43:55
Speaker
And, you know, you can do it in your sleep with kind of the stories that are presented by mainstream media.
00:44:00
Speaker
It's the easiest thing ever.
00:44:03
Speaker
And then you do this and you can still find maybe faults or whatever, but you can tell it's a much, much sturdier line of reasoning.
Protecting Innovative Thinkers
00:44:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:10
Speaker
But I mean, even then, like nobody really knows the solution, but the first step, the first step is, you know, diagnosing the specificities.
00:44:19
Speaker
I think that I said that right.
00:44:20
Speaker
Of the, of the problem.
00:44:23
Speaker
And then, um,
00:44:24
Speaker
And this is why I'm kind of doing the project I am protecting the people capable of generating those solutions.
00:44:33
Speaker
Yeah, they're not common, but they're extremely like precious, valuable people like if your house is burning down.
00:44:42
Speaker
and there's like 100 people in the house, and two of them know how to build a new house, you need to make sure that they don't get crushed by falling debris on the way out just because of the current house you're in sucks.
00:44:55
Speaker
If you're going to build a new one, you need those people.
00:44:59
Speaker
Yeah, I... Somebody...
00:45:03
Speaker
they phrase it as I ruled geniuses in, I don't rule geniuses out.
00:45:08
Speaker
So like, and people talk about, people talk about Jordan Peterson or BAP or mold bug, and they want to talk about like the three things that are like the easiest to attack the three things that those guys maybe get wrong or whatever.
00:45:22
Speaker
And it's like, first of all, I'm not sure that they got that wrong, but, but second of all,
00:45:29
Speaker
anybody who can light your mind up like that, even if they're wrong about some things, just the fact they supplied a new idea, a new model, the fact that they said some things that were true is such a rare commodity now.
00:45:47
Speaker
And yeah, you got to protect those people.
00:45:49
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:45:50
Speaker
So I like the way that... So my model is... What I'm doing is very much...
00:45:56
Speaker
like focused on the individual and pulling the individual kind of out and building network at that level, at like the business level.
00:46:09
Speaker
But you have this opportunity to do that at the narrative level, at the mass media level to protect those voices.
00:46:19
Speaker
So I think it's super cool, man.
00:46:22
Speaker
Awesome.
00:46:23
Speaker
Thanks.
Synthesizing Ideas for Collective Solutions
00:46:24
Speaker
I mean, I'm definitely...
00:46:26
Speaker
I've put a lot of work into it over a long time.
00:46:32
Speaker
And you're talking about just kind of all these voices that are just breathtakingly intelligent.
00:46:38
Speaker
And you're like, so when I kind of started thinking about this, it took me maybe six months to even start doing it seriously.
00:46:44
Speaker
Because I'm like, somebody had to have thought of this already.
00:46:47
Speaker
There's no way that I could have possibly done it.
00:46:49
Speaker
But the only position I'm in is that I get to listen to all these voices and then synthesize them in my head.
00:46:55
Speaker
And then, you know, add and then kind of just make an original combination that they might not have just individually.
00:47:01
Speaker
So that's, that's been valuable.
00:47:04
Speaker
But what you've done with the group, man, has really been awesome to see.
00:47:09
Speaker
And just even the, it's difficult to kind of keep the consistency of the enthusiasm and usefulness in general, you know, enjoyment of a project over time.
00:47:22
Speaker
And you really have done a great job of that.
00:47:25
Speaker
And I just wanted to say that.
00:47:27
Speaker
Thanks, man.
00:47:28
Speaker
Thanks.
00:47:29
Speaker
That's a big part of the goal is to give people the fire that they need to kind of achieve escape velocity.
00:47:41
Speaker
And sometimes that does mean like the psychological encouragement of, you know,
00:47:48
Speaker
you're going to make it.
00:47:49
Speaker
But, but I think also one of the things I find so often is they can't find a small enough piece to bite off.
00:47:56
Speaker
They can't find, um, a minimum, minimum viable, a really small thing that they can do to move the ball.
00:48:04
Speaker
And the accountability calls are awesome for that because it's like, you know, we're going to go one week at a time.
00:48:11
Speaker
What can you do this week?
00:48:13
Speaker
And not like,
00:48:14
Speaker
Most of these guys have day jobs.
00:48:16
Speaker
So it's not like, what can you do in this week with, with 40 hours?
00:48:19
Speaker
It's what can you do this week in like two or three, but the guys actually do move the ball at that rate.
00:48:25
Speaker
They really do go ahead.
00:48:27
Speaker
Yeah, no, sorry.
00:48:27
Speaker
I didn't mean to interrupt what you're talking about the accountability column, the entrepreneurship calls and everything.
00:48:33
Speaker
Another good reminder is just like that.
00:48:35
Speaker
Everybody else is just like a human being doing their best.
00:48:38
Speaker
Just like you, like the word entrepreneur conjures an image of somebody who always has their shit together.
00:48:44
Speaker
and, you know, gives the right orders and does this and does that.
00:48:48
Speaker
And, but then you go on the calls and, you know, everybody, you know, everybody's very smart and competent, but they're like me.
00:48:56
Speaker
So it's very, it's very encouraging to see.
00:49:00
Speaker
They get tired.
00:49:01
Speaker
They forget what they signed up to do sometimes.
00:49:06
Speaker
They get sick.
00:49:07
Speaker
Somebody dies in the family.
00:49:10
Speaker
The disruptions happen, but you just come back when you come back and you keep moving the ball.
00:49:16
Speaker
And knowing that there's people in there who care about what you're doing.
00:49:20
Speaker
I mean, for me personally, when I'm talking about my business, which I do, I use the group just like everybody else does.
00:49:27
Speaker
And knowing that I'm going to have to be held accountable.
00:49:30
Speaker
Well, for starters, I, I, I'm three seconds away from the airborne, the army airborne two minute mile qualifier.
00:49:42
Speaker
It's 1554.
00:49:43
Speaker
I hit 1557.
00:49:45
Speaker
That was like nowhere near in reach for me before I started this group.
00:49:49
Speaker
But I got into the fitness call and I started posting pictures of the treadmill after each run.
00:49:57
Speaker
Just, and, and virtually all of like my best times are the calls on Wednesday nights and it's like Wednesday, 7 PM.
00:50:05
Speaker
That's when I'm able to do it.
00:50:06
Speaker
Cause like, I know I'm going to be in that call.
00:50:08
Speaker
And so I, I, you know, I don't want to look like an asshole.
00:50:11
Speaker
So.
00:50:13
Speaker
But it makes a real difference.
00:50:15
Speaker
It makes a real difference.
00:50:17
Speaker
And so, yeah, I'm kind of my own best customer in that respect.
Accountability and Community Support
00:50:21
Speaker
But it really, it's about the guys.
00:50:22
Speaker
You know, it's the, we have such cool guys.
00:50:25
Speaker
We have such a great crowd that I was, and that goes into like, that feeds into this thing we're talking about where Martyrmaid did a podcast recently where he was talking about like World War II and kind of the popular lies that we tell about World War II.
00:50:40
Speaker
And he was like,
00:50:42
Speaker
There are a lot of kids right now who are only able to get accurate information about certain topics from like Stormfront.
00:50:55
Speaker
And he's like, look, Stormfront is wrong about a lot of things.
00:51:00
Speaker
And so like they can't be
00:51:03
Speaker
the only source you can trust.
00:51:05
Speaker
Like a kid should not be getting lied to by his teachers and by his parents and by the news and by everybody else.
00:51:12
Speaker
And then be like, Oh wow, finally it snaps into place when he's on storm front.
00:51:16
Speaker
Like that's a really unhealthy situation for all of us to be in.
00:51:21
Speaker
And so, um, and so I, I was a little bit concerned when I started this thing that, um,
00:51:29
Speaker
that I would be attracting people who wanted to be like maximally hostile, maximally aggressive, maximally ideological.
00:51:38
Speaker
And I think part of the reason, like I, it didn't happen and I'm really grateful that it didn't happen, but it's taken me a while to figure out maybe exactly why.
00:51:46
Speaker
And I think it's because these guys who really, these guys who are responsible enough to care about like handling their exit, uh,
00:51:57
Speaker
like in this organized way and building something, they also tend not to be like, they don't have the same damage, you know, that a lot of these guys do.
00:52:08
Speaker
And, and, you know, I, I, I'm not a, if, if, if somebody, if somebody comes to me and they want help, I'm going to help them.
00:52:16
Speaker
And I don't care.
00:52:17
Speaker
Like I, there's no, there's no ideological line you can cross with me where I'm going to be like, Oh no, I'm glad Antifa got you.
Broadening Audience Engagement
00:52:26
Speaker
So, you know, I just want to be clear about that.
00:52:29
Speaker
But you have to have like a core of like regular guys.
00:52:34
Speaker
That's the only way this thing can work.
00:52:36
Speaker
And I think that generalizes way beyond my thing to this whole process.
00:52:43
Speaker
Like it has to appeal to and draw in saying conformist is too strong a word, but conformist
00:52:53
Speaker
Community minded people who don't have all day to read about politics, you know, who are there's a there's a certain level to which it's rational to believe what you're told, because like for most people, most of the time, it doesn't actually matter.
00:53:09
Speaker
Like, yeah.
00:53:10
Speaker
And like, then you have something to talk about at the water cooler at work.
00:53:14
Speaker
Um, and, and those people, like, I don't fault them for not being as dialed in as we are.
00:53:20
Speaker
It sucks that they're not, it makes the job harder, but like, I get it.
00:53:24
Speaker
So, so yeah, I'm, I'm rambling now, but like, that's, that's a big piece of what I want to do is to, and, and what you're doing too, you're empowering these people to speak in a way that makes them reachable, um,
00:53:41
Speaker
to a broader
Virtuous Cycle of Idea Sharing
00:53:42
Speaker
audience.
00:53:42
Speaker
It keeps them in the game instead of knocking them out because they got banned from Twitter or because, you know, whatever it is, they got their Patreon canceled.
00:53:52
Speaker
We keep them in the game and then they do become the people that go on Tucker.
00:53:55
Speaker
And then my dad sees them on Tucker and they talk about that.
00:53:59
Speaker
You know what I'm saying?
00:53:59
Speaker
Like there's this virtuous cycle to it.
00:54:02
Speaker
Yeah, and it also has a component to, it's a way, you can channel,
00:54:11
Speaker
channel negative energy towards positive ends.
00:54:14
Speaker
Like you can take your absolute fury at what's going on and just help people that you like, that are good, that you don't want bad things to happen to.
00:54:24
Speaker
So I think once people kind of start cooperating like that, it'll feel, you know, everybody likes being part of a group and we're primates and everything, but I think it's a, it's a positive form of tribalism.
00:54:38
Speaker
But real quick on the quality of guys and everything, I had the same fear, like when I got in, like I haven't held the political beliefs that I currently do for very long.
00:54:49
Speaker
So I really wasn't sure what I was going to get, but it's been reassuring, you know, not that I was wavering beforehand, but I was extra reassured.
00:55:00
Speaker
I'm like, no, what I'm doing and what I think is the right thing to do, because everybody in here are nice, thoughtful people.
00:55:10
Speaker
When I heard you on Alex's podcast, it was even interesting because I follow you on Twitter for like smart, like edgy, funny takes.
00:55:21
Speaker
But I didn't necessarily, it just turned out that you were a normal, well-balanced person.
00:55:28
Speaker
And I didn't necessarily expect that, which was fine.
00:55:31
Speaker
And I'm just like, even if you were like the weirdest dude ever, I was still like going to follow you because I like your shit.
00:55:36
Speaker
But I'm just like, oh, okay, no.
00:55:37
Speaker
And so this really is just normal people.
00:55:40
Speaker
So I completely agree.
00:55:42
Speaker
And a note on being normal overall, the kind of flame wars that have been going on on Twitter and these purity spirals, I think it's difficult for people in this, that are really deep in the space to know how batshit insane, like some conversations look.
00:56:03
Speaker
And it's not necessarily like, it's a completely different language.
00:56:06
Speaker
It's a complete, it's a different culture.
00:56:07
Speaker
It's speaking a different thing.
00:56:09
Speaker
So yeah, I don't really, I'm not really necessarily a fan when they attack anyone who engages in minimally pro-social behavior outside of right-wing
Free Conversation for Societal Growth
00:56:19
Speaker
Twitter.
00:56:19
Speaker
Like that has to happen.
00:56:21
Speaker
It's not a vice.
00:56:23
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:56:24
Speaker
But like, and this is my synthesis.
00:56:27
Speaker
This is how I bring it together in my own mind is that
00:56:34
Speaker
Part of having a healthy discourse is that there's this scratchpad character to it.
00:56:45
Speaker
You can think your own thoughts and write them down and puzzle them out for yourself, but if you can't bounce them off of the tribe, if you can't throw them out there...
00:56:57
Speaker
then you can't develop them in the way they need to be developed.
00:57:01
Speaker
No one person is going to solve any of these problems.
00:57:03
Speaker
They have to be solved through this evolutionary process of us chewing through some memes and thinking through what it all means together.
00:57:14
Speaker
And if those conversations can be just shut down, if that ferment can't take place,
00:57:23
Speaker
then you end up with this just like Soviet, like Brezhnev, like there's no movement, there's no growth.
00:57:31
Speaker
It's just sort of, we're just trying to keep the machines running as long as we can until they break and then we don't know how to fix them.
00:57:39
Speaker
It's so important to, and like, I guess what I'm saying is,
00:57:45
Speaker
the, the, the storm front conversation, even those guys, like I can think that it's bad for them to be the only source and the only thing that you go to.
00:57:57
Speaker
But like, I think it's good that people are allowed to say wild shit.
00:58:01
Speaker
Like I think they need to, because, because things come out of that that are good.
Risks of Limiting Discourse
00:58:06
Speaker
Like there's, I think, I think people have, you know, it's funny.
00:58:11
Speaker
I feel like I'm talking like Ben Shapiro, like the marketplace of ideas or whatever.
00:58:16
Speaker
I don't believe in that, but I do think that people need to be able to talk.
00:58:25
Speaker
People need to be able to say things that are wrong.
00:58:27
Speaker
People need to be able to say things that are mean.
00:58:31
Speaker
We just can't have these rules because they shut down...
00:58:41
Speaker
who gets to decide what is shut down?
00:58:44
Speaker
That sort of locks in the ideology, the civic religion of the whole society, and it can never grow, it can never change.
00:58:51
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I would believe in free speech under any circumstances, but the one steel man I could have from the other side is if the society was doing well and the people in charge of speech that are clamping down are running a tight ship and everything,
00:59:08
Speaker
But you can't say we can't talk when you suck.
00:59:12
Speaker
You ruin everything.
00:59:13
Speaker
You're stupid.
00:59:14
Speaker
You're rude.
00:59:15
Speaker
You're mean.
00:59:16
Speaker
You're like, you're just, I mean, you're just, you have so many bad qualities in one thing.
00:59:22
Speaker
It's shocking.
00:59:23
Speaker
And you're telling me that I can't talk when I'm actually coming up to a solution to a problem you caused.
00:59:30
Speaker
So,
00:59:33
Speaker
So, you know, like I said, this has kind of been like a long, mostly lonely journey for me that I haven't made a sense of last year.
00:59:41
Speaker
But that thought that I just expressed to you is like the fire that kind of keeps me going.
00:59:46
Speaker
Like if I'm ever kind of depressed by myself, I'm like, wait a minute.
00:59:50
Speaker
No, fuck that shit.
00:59:51
Speaker
And then I'll get back to work.
00:59:55
Speaker
Yeah, man, because we have to find solutions.
00:59:59
Speaker
We have to fix this thing.
01:00:01
Speaker
And that's...
01:00:03
Speaker
There's been this ongoing debate on Twitter recently about whether it makes sense to try to retake these institutions or escape them.
01:00:13
Speaker
And I think that's the wrong framing, first of all.
01:00:18
Speaker
I think you have to reduce your own attack surface is what you have to do.
01:00:25
Speaker
You're still gonna probably shop at Walmart and Amazon or whatever
01:00:32
Speaker
for some things that you need.
01:00:33
Speaker
It's not about withdrawing in any way that makes you weaker.
01:00:38
Speaker
It's just about how do I reduce the enemy's leverage over me personally and over my tribe?
01:00:46
Speaker
And so it's, yeah, you're not going to pull out of this thing.
01:00:53
Speaker
We have to solve these problems.
01:00:55
Speaker
We're not going to escape these problems.
01:00:56
Speaker
If we run into the woods,
01:00:58
Speaker
they're going to come and wake us.
01:01:01
Speaker
You know what I mean?
01:01:01
Speaker
Like that's, that's the way it works.
01:01:05
Speaker
We have to solve these problems, which means we have to take back the culture and the right to speak, which means we have to soften the blow for these guys that are getting canceled because for every one of them that this happens to, there's 10,000 that, that get the message and shut up.
Cancel Culture as Control Mechanism
01:01:25
Speaker
Yep, that's the example that I used in my first sub stack.
01:01:30
Speaker
Even before everybody started getting obsessed with cancel culture, like when it really ramped up, it reminded me of those, I mean, I've only seen it in movies and stuff, but like in a concentration camp or something like that, when somebody tries to escape and the guards line everybody up and go, hey, this guy stole an apple or tried to escape, we got him.
01:01:50
Speaker
And then they shoot him in the head.
01:01:52
Speaker
They go, get back to work.
01:01:53
Speaker
as an example, exactly the same thing.
01:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, exactly the same thing.
01:01:57
Speaker
And it deters people.
01:01:58
Speaker
But the so one white pill, though, that and the reason why, again, I'm not when I say it's not as difficult as people think, I'm not saying it's easy.
01:02:11
Speaker
But I mean, so the people who have all of the money, and all the power, and have the culture in a fucking vice script, are terrified of you.
01:02:24
Speaker
Think about the implications of that and start thinking about why you would give up instead of actually start working towards a solution without thinking that it's wasted or hopeless or anything.
01:02:40
Speaker
Like it
Power Dynamics in Free Speech
01:02:41
Speaker
can work.
01:02:41
Speaker
It's not easy, but this can work.
01:02:43
Speaker
I mean, you look at who they're theoretically, like their top guy, the guy that they picked to run everything and his vice president.
01:02:55
Speaker
you look at the quad, like the, what's their bench like, you know, like this was, this is their hitter.
01:03:01
Speaker
This is their star hitter.
01:03:03
Speaker
What's their bench like?
01:03:04
Speaker
What, like how deep does this go?
01:03:07
Speaker
And, and you, you just cannot look at those people and be like, Oh, they're clamping down because they control everything.
01:03:15
Speaker
And they're so strong.
01:03:16
Speaker
They're clamping down because they're weak.
01:03:18
Speaker
They're clamping down because they're frightened.
01:03:20
Speaker
And, and you know, I, I, I've said this a couple of times,
01:03:26
Speaker
It's in many cases exactly the same people that ran the Clinton administration.
01:03:31
Speaker
And in the Clinton administration, you could pretty much say what you wanted.
01:03:34
Speaker
You could pretty much do what you wanted because they were strong.
01:03:39
Speaker
They were in control.
01:03:40
Speaker
There was no dangerous counter narrative for them to attack.
01:03:48
Speaker
And now they've become unbelievably vicious
01:03:54
Speaker
And it's not because they're stronger.
01:03:57
Speaker
They're watching it collapse around them.
Narrative Control Tools Failing
01:04:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's definitely not a victory lap or anything like that because there's actually a kind of, maybe not a theory, but a frame I was thinking of the other week where, I mean, canceling people is their insurance policy.
01:04:15
Speaker
Like it's not plan A. Like the first thing is, the first plan is everybody get along and work towards a common goal.
01:04:23
Speaker
Okay, that didn't work.
01:04:24
Speaker
Step two is lie to everybody and convince them to do shit that benefits you willingly without them finding out.
01:04:30
Speaker
Okay.
01:04:30
Speaker
That's going to work.
01:04:31
Speaker
The insurance policy for that is cancellation.
01:04:34
Speaker
Right.
01:04:35
Speaker
And the, the one after that is killing you.
01:04:39
Speaker
Like, just, I mean, just to be frank, but like, that's why the second amendment exists because that's citizens insurance policy against their step four insurance policy.
01:04:48
Speaker
But we don't have an equivalent.
01:04:50
Speaker
We don't,
01:04:51
Speaker
If somebody comes to your house with guns, you have a gun.
01:04:54
Speaker
That's the answer.
01:04:54
Speaker
When somebody cancels you, there's a giant empty open space that hasn't been formed yet.
01:05:00
Speaker
So that's kind of the gap that I'm hoping to fill eventually.
01:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's – what did he –
01:05:09
Speaker
One of the guys that I did a podcast with not that long ago, McCarthy, he sort of investigates domestic extremism for the government.
01:05:16
Speaker
So he's wired into some interesting circles and talks to some interesting people.
01:05:20
Speaker
And he said, I think the phrase he used was, they're watching all of their tools for narrative control fail in real time.
01:05:30
Speaker
Their ability to manufacture consent is collapsing.
01:05:35
Speaker
And so, yeah, they're scrambling because, frankly, they don't have the muscle to do this the hard way.
01:05:50
Speaker
It has to be done this way.
01:05:52
Speaker
And, you know, people can disagree about that.
01:05:55
Speaker
I'm sure that the three guys that listen to this podcast will tell me I'm being a cuck for saying that.
01:06:02
Speaker
But I really don't think they have the muscle.
01:06:04
Speaker
I really don't think they can.
01:06:06
Speaker
And, and, and so this, this becomes the fighting line.
01:06:11
Speaker
This becomes where the, where the fate of the country is decided, I think.
01:06:17
Speaker
So God willing, you and I get to be part of that.
01:06:19
Speaker
It's exciting.
01:06:20
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:21
Speaker
I mean, it's the situation is, well, one real quick note on the, why they're in a shitty situation themselves.
01:06:30
Speaker
Also quality of personnel.
01:06:32
Speaker
the quality of people that want to control narratives are not the quality of people that, you know, want to be outside of that and try to create
Innovative Solutions vs. Declining Narrative Quality
01:06:41
Speaker
things.
01:06:41
Speaker
And that kind of degenerates while the other one grows in power.
01:06:44
Speaker
So, but yeah, I mean, besides that, exactly.
01:06:47
Speaker
There's a couple of situations that I think that are, that I wish could be different that would make my life a lot easier, but it's not going to happen.
01:06:54
Speaker
So second best thing is doing this.
01:06:56
Speaker
And I'm really happy to have gotten in touch with you and be part of the group.
01:07:01
Speaker
Thanks a lot, man.
01:07:01
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:02
Speaker
It's,
01:07:02
Speaker
It's a, it's an exciting time.
01:07:05
Speaker
And the guys who, the guys who complain about living now, instead of in some safer time, I, I, I frankly, I don't
Conclusion: Adventure in Societal Struggle
01:07:15
Speaker
get it.
01:07:15
Speaker
Like, like you really wanted this, this constitutional puzzle box to like solve all the problems forever.
01:07:22
Speaker
And like, there wouldn't be a bad guy anymore.
01:07:25
Speaker
And like, so what were you going to do?
01:07:27
Speaker
Like, what were you just going to get a job and make money and die?
01:07:30
Speaker
Like, what was your, what was your,
01:07:33
Speaker
What's the adventure in that?
01:07:34
Speaker
What's cool about that to you?
01:07:35
Speaker
Like, I like that we get to fight.
01:07:37
Speaker
I like that we get to push back and that there's, there's real like frigging psychic vampire reptile bad guys to fight.
01:07:45
Speaker
I think that's cool.
01:07:48
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:49
Speaker
I mean, it literally is.
01:07:51
Speaker
I mean, it's literally just fighting evil people.
01:07:53
Speaker
Like it's really, it's what it comes down to.
01:07:56
Speaker
Ultimate metaphysical evil.
01:07:59
Speaker
Yeah, so you get to be part of that story.
01:08:02
Speaker
So, I mean, you can, you know, wish you had a little bit more money or whatever, but besides that, you know, quit your bitching.
01:08:08
Speaker
It's pretty freaking rad.
01:08:11
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you know, since 1945, we've been in a little bit of a dream, but besides that, literally everybody else, it's just been pure struggle.
01:08:22
Speaker
So you're gonna, it's just funny.
01:08:25
Speaker
Having a human being born in the universe going, but I don't want to struggle.
01:08:29
Speaker
Like that's just what, but that's just what it is though.
01:08:32
Speaker
So you don't get an option.
01:08:34
Speaker
It's not like you're not at a restaurant.
01:08:35
Speaker
You don't have, you can't hold the struggle.
01:08:39
Speaker
You're just going to have one.
01:08:41
Speaker
So if you're going to struggle, do it well.
01:08:44
Speaker
Amen.
01:08:45
Speaker
All right.
01:08:46
Speaker
Well, this has been an awesome conversation.
01:08:48
Speaker
Check, check Harry out at becomepluribus.com.
01:08:52
Speaker
It's still in the sort of sign up to wait and learn more stage, but really exciting project.
01:08:58
Speaker
We can't wait to watch it unfold.
01:08:59
Speaker
Becomepluribus.com.
01:09:01
Speaker
And if you want to check us out at exit, you can check us out at exitgroup.us.
01:09:07
Speaker
Thanks, Harry.
01:09:08
Speaker
Thank you.
01:09:09
Speaker
Take care.