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Will the UAW strikes disrupt the sustainable transition?
92 Plays2 years ago
This week Karthik, Mike, and Anthony catch up on some recent news, including Nucor and Helion's recent fusion announcement and the ongoing United Auto Workers strike in America.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Innovation Matters. It is the podcast about sustainable innovation. I am your host, Anthony Skiavo. I'm a senior director at Lux Research. Today, it's just the boys, just the fellas. We're going to be talking about a lot of news. Uh, there's a lot of news that's been happening that we haven't caught up with. And so we're going to catch up on it today.
Personal Anecdotes
00:00:32
Speaker
Karthik, how are things in sunny, warm, beautiful Amsterdam?
00:00:38
Speaker
not sunny and warm anymore. It's been raining since 1 a.m. in the morning and it's been it's been quite incessant. So yeah, the cold weather is back. I guess you'll enjoy that when you come to Amsterdam for the forum.
00:00:51
Speaker
Yeah, I'm looking forward to coming to Amsterdam for the forum for sure. Although I will immediately be departing for Brussels. I'm going to go on the record here and say Brussels is the worst city in Europe. Any of our listeners in Brussels don't write in. I don't care about your opinion. I've never I've like I've had uniquely terrible experiences in a lot of cities in Europe, including but not limited to London. But Brussels has always struck me as like just
00:01:19
Speaker
kind of the most depressing city in Europe. So I'm not going to Brussels for the conference. What do you think about Brussels in a week? I don't know. It's just another European city, I suppose. And apart from the city center, there's nothing special or maybe I'm wrong. But I only went to Brussels once and it was OK. All right. You need to report back live live correspondent from Brussels.
00:01:48
Speaker
See if it's approved since you have this last visit. Yeah.
Urban Future Summit Insights
00:01:53
Speaker
Mike, how are you doing? Good. I'm gearing up to go to the Urban Future Summit this afternoon. Yeah, the Urban Future Lab in New York is sort of... I mean, I always explain it to Lux people. It's kind of like the Green Town Labs of New York.
00:02:17
Speaker
So they kind of it's like a startup incubator and it tends to be a little more like software and FinTech kind of stuff More focused on that sort of thing. They don't have I think as much in the way of you know labs and machine shops and stuff like that is as Green Town does but Yeah, I don't know. I feel like these like design conferences are these sort of more like
00:02:43
Speaker
future tech conferences always sort of lend themselves to really stupid ideas. It's like a big startup pitch, you know, so that's gonna be. I don't know. Meet some interesting company. I might recruit some podcast guests, who knows? You might recruit some podcast guests. Bring your microphone. Bring your microphone.
Fusion Power Investments
00:03:05
Speaker
Okay, and speaking of bad ideas.
00:03:09
Speaker
We're gonna start the news rundown with Nucor and Helion. So Nucor is big steel company they have.
00:03:16
Speaker
announced a collaboration with Helion, which is a fusion power plant developer, to build a 500 megawatt fusion power plant. I think more to the point, they have invested 35 million into Helion, which is the actual thing, because developing a 500 megawatt power plant, a fusion power plant is like developing, I don't know, a 500 megawatt alchemical gold production plant, in the sense that the technology is roughly
00:03:45
Speaker
roughly as mature. But in the fusion space, we also had a recent announcement from Lawrence Livermore National Lab, a second positive energy fusion reaction, which is to say the specific fusion reaction. The lasers went in, energy came out, and the energy of the lasers going in was less than the energy coming out. Or I should say the energy coming out was more than the lasers going in.
00:04:11
Speaker
So it's positive energy. That's good. That's good for fusion. Mike, I'm sure that the scientific reporting community did a good job with this story, right? That's what you're going to tell me? Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, I always feel a little bad.
00:04:27
Speaker
like shitting on this stuff, because it's an incredible scientific and technical achievement that we created fusion in a human-made facility and it actually got the reaction going and produced all this energy with it. But I do think a lot of it is giving people a little bit of a misleading idea of how sort of practically or commercially significant this is.
00:04:55
Speaker
Like you said, I think they put in about 2.1 megajoules of energy and got 3.9 back out, which is cool, but the energy going in was just the energy that actually managed to get into the reactor vessel or the fuel pellet. The whole system took
00:05:18
Speaker
about 300 megajoules of energy to produce those 3.9 and then, you know, it almost doesn't matter at this point, but if, you know, to actually convert that energy coming out into a useful form, you're only going to be able to do that at like, you know, max 40% efficiency. So, I mean, you know, you're getting like a combined heat and power cycle, right? And that's like 90%. Yeah.
00:05:42
Speaker
energy efficient, but that also requires putting the fusion reactor in like the basement of a New York City block or whatever, right? Or maybe at a steel facility, that's probably something you use waste, I don't know. But no, it's just like you would not know that from reading most of the commentary about about this, including the
00:06:03
Speaker
failing New York Times, as it's been called, failing at the science coverage in this case. There's a big write-up about it, and it just doesn't mention the 300 at all. Really? It really doesn't. That's disappointing. It's like, come on, guys. So I don't know. But I think it just goes to show to the point of this new core discussion.
00:06:29
Speaker
multiple decades away in the optimistic scenario from anything that's really practically useful. I don't object to Newcore or anybody making an investment in a fusion startup if they
00:06:49
Speaker
you know, if they're willing to wait that long or, you know, accept that it's a very, very, very long term proposition. But I'm not really sure what the point of these like saying, oh, we're going to build a facility now, or we're now building a facility or like when I think we talked about it earlier this year when Microsoft said that they were doing a PPA with some fusion company and it's like actually with Helion.
00:07:11
Speaker
Maybe this is just Helion's PR strategy. I don't know. Sign up these fantasy projects. Announce these fantasy projects. Yeah, the thing with Helion, which is quite funny for me, at least with this announcement, the difference is they haven't disclosed a timeline. With Microsoft, they said we're going to sell fusion electricity by 2028.
00:07:32
Speaker
Uh, with new core, they haven't announced that specifically, which I guess is being on the safer side. 20, 2030 or after seems like a realistic target. I'm quoting from their fact sheet, which is, uh, accurate in the sense of after.
Decarbonization Strategies
00:07:49
Speaker
Correct. Uh, but one thing with helium that's quite different to other fusion developers is they're not looking at steady state fusion or they don't need balance of system.
00:08:01
Speaker
for the plant, so they're not going to produce steam and then run a steam turbine. They're going to directly use magnetic induction to produce electricity from the expanding plasma. Not sure what the engineering challenges are going to be with that.
00:08:15
Speaker
It still doesn't take away the fact that fusion is multiple decades away, even if they're following a pulsed approach. Uh, so I, I guess the idea here is that because new core is like the most electric arc re-melting of the steel manufacturer is basically they use mostly pure electricity in their facilities. That Helion is a particularly good fit for them because they're unlike presumably, I mean, not, not that any of these fusion companies really have a system design yet per se, but like they're going to produce pure electricity.
00:08:45
Speaker
Unlike a steam, you know, they're not going to go to steam. And so that's why they're a good fit with new core. I guess that's the idea, right? Yeah. So they're going to be powering an electric arc furnace, probably use the electricity to power some electrolyzers, produce hydrogen, use the hydrogen as a reducing agent for the iron ore. I think that's what they would be targeting. And that's why Helion is a good fit. I think for new core as well, I think this is another PR move because new core has announced very aggressive
00:09:12
Speaker
decarbonization strategy, they already claim to have reduced, if I'm not wrong, 75% of their carbon emissions already or something like that. They're already pretty much the cleanest steel maker globally. Again, this is mostly a function of recycling the steel, which is just the cleanest way to make steel at a baseline.
00:09:34
Speaker
the largest, one of the largest recyclers, certainly the largest steel recycler in the US. And so, you know, that just gets you a long way. I mean, they've done a bunch of other stuff on top of that. I don't want to completely write off their, their decarbonization efforts, but I don't know. I mean, why not again, why not just invest in a regular nuclear power plant? You know, you could just build a nuclear power plant. I just don't know. No, I think that would be quite difficult.
00:10:03
Speaker
I mean, I get the... It's not about the expense of me. Well, I mean, Dow was doing it, right? Dow was kind of doing it. Chemical space. Well, it's a pilot, but that's much more... They're putting a co-locating a small modular reactor with Xenergy at one of their refineries in the facilities in the Gulf Coast. That's still risky, but it's much, much more mature technology than fusion is.
00:10:32
Speaker
So here's the question, is this greenwashing? Yes. I mean, as far as the, you know, saying we're going to be decarbonizing our steel process with fusion, I mean, it's
00:10:51
Speaker
You know, it's that's not happening on a meaningful timeframe. But the headline is definitely greenwashing. I think Nucor and he talked that they're actually investing money. Historic 500 megawatt fusion power plant is like, OK, like I would say the Microsoft PPA is like pure greenwashing. This is like, OK, like at least you're putting it's a non trivial sum of money that's going into this for sure. So it's you know, that's
00:11:19
Speaker
That part is a legitimate investment, but yeah. I mean, the thing with co-locating nuclear power, be it fusion or fusion with any other chemicals facility, and I think this also goes, you know, I think is applicable to what's going on with DAO and X energy is that they're going to face a lot of regulatory headwinds, especially in terms of what would happen if
00:11:46
Speaker
you know, something happens at the chemical facility and that risks the nuclear power plant, you know, not, not the other way around. And so there are going to be a lot of challenges in implementation. And so even if you have a mature technology, I think by the time, if you are in the US, you go to the NRC and you tell them, Hey, this is my idea. You have like 10,000 pages of documents for licensing, for implementation. There's a lot of back and forth. And so it's quite challenging to even get these, you know, started. So.
Thermal Energy Storage Challenges
00:12:16
Speaker
I'm not so sure even if a mature nuclear fission power plant would work for co-location unless they're spread far enough to not be impacted by each other's presence. Our next news item, it is a shell-backed energy storage pilot, suspends operations after overheating prompts, in quotes, explosion fears, which are
00:12:40
Speaker
one of my top five least favorite kind of fears, frankly speaking, right up there with bare fears, which I have a lot of. But basically, this is a company, MGA Thermal, they're doing a high temperature energy storage, which I think broadly, and I'm curious for your perspective on this, it's a good technology, or it's an important and somewhat necessary technology for the energy transmission, right? This ability to store high temperature heat.
00:13:10
Speaker
but apparently their test unit was supposed to be around 700 degrees centigrade and it got to around 1200 degrees centigrade and the entire shipping container was glowing red, which is again not what you want.
00:13:25
Speaker
for your shipping containers. I tried to find a video of this or a picture of this. I was not actually able to. This was in Sydney and the story was broken by a local Sydney news organization, but I couldn't find the actual story.
00:13:49
Speaker
Is this just, I feel like this is a little bit, this is kind of to me in the battery fires space where it's like, okay, I would need to do something about that and there are going to be technical and engineering solutions to that problem. But it's sort of just like, hey, this is what happens when you do new technology and this is not that big of a deal, frankly. But I don't know, Karthik, what do you think about this? Is this overblown or what? I mean, in terms of the
00:14:18
Speaker
necessity for thermal energy storage. I would definitely look at long duration energy storage and our colleague Chloe Herrera at Lux Research did a brilliant report on the levelized cost of long duration storage technologies, which clients are listening to this podcast. Please check out if you already haven't. I would definitely say from a long duration perspective, you can't just keep installing batteries for long duration storage because batteries aren't as energy dense.
00:14:46
Speaker
You need a lot of area, of course. And thermal energy storage is definitely much better on that aspect. In terms of this specific development, I was curious to know why it overheated. Because they're storing the heat in metal blocks, and that's how the technology works, and they release it when they want to. So they're still investigating this thing, of course. But is it because there was a cooling system that suddenly stopped functioning?
00:15:15
Speaker
Was there any coolant that passed its critical heat flux for some reason? Was there any issues like that that led to a sudden drop in heat transfer? I truly don't know. I guess we'll find out in time. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what could have possibly gone wrong here. I think the bad thing, because it's a metal graphite battery. So I think the really bad outcome here is that the thing starts reacting, right? And it starts generating heat.
00:15:43
Speaker
It's oxidizing or otherwise burning, essentially. Which is what happened at Chernobyl, right? Part of the actual meltdown there was the graphite that was in the containment vessel basically caught fire. Yeah. You don't love to see that. I would assume they would have thought of that and presumably that's not it, but that is the thing that came to mind first for me, this big aluminum graphite.
00:16:14
Speaker
block just like was like, you know what, I'm done. I'm out. I think they might have to include some form of cooling system on the side to maintain temperature and use that heat maybe with compressed air or something like that. I don't know. It might be the cooling system is just the heat extraction system. Right. I mean, like you just take the heat out and you do it for some facility. I mean, maybe that was the issue. It's just like.
00:16:38
Speaker
They were just testing the thing and they didn't have anywhere to put the heat. That's the thing about heat is you can transfer it, right? Uh, you can create it, but it's a lot harder to destroy it. Um, we haven't really, we haven't really worked out that particular trick yet very well, actually. I don't know. I mean, how important is heat storage specifically? Not just long duration energy storage, but heat storage.
00:17:06
Speaker
I don't know if it's as important for electricity. I'm not sure if going from electricity to heat and then electricity again is as efficient.
00:17:19
Speaker
And with always heat, you're going to have losses because your containment vessel is going to keep dissipating heat. Nothing is 100% adiabatic, stuff like that. Maybe heat duration, I mean, heat storage would be quite exciting for decarbonizing heat from an industry perspective. I know that with concentrated solar systems, you tend to cycle the heat system every day because otherwise it's just going to get uneconomical to have one.
00:17:46
Speaker
thermal energy storage system. So yeah, I see a lot of interesting applications in the industry. Maybe Mike, you also see some applications for electricity or otherwise. Yeah, I mean, I think when you get into these thermal energy storage systems, the round trip efficiency tends to be less, particularly for electricity than it is for batteries, for sort of obvious reasons.
00:18:13
Speaker
But I think the utility of these systems is the ability, if you can cite them places where you can also make use of the heat. And again, like that's the callback to the previous conversation, right? That's why the DAO-X energy thing is sort of interesting because they not only can use the electricity produced from that, but they can use a lot of the heat directly because it's co-located onsite at a refinery. So I think these type of thermal energy storage systems are going to be particularly
00:18:41
Speaker
interesting for industrial facilities. Safety is going to be a bigger issue at those industrial facilities, but in an industrial facility, you'll probably be better prepared to deal with it.
00:18:59
Speaker
I mean, anything that has a lot of energy in a small space, whether it's a thermal storage system, whether it's a lithium ion battery, or whether it's a big tank of diesel fuel, is going to have some risks to it. And we're pretty good at dealing with the big tanks of diesel fuel in the light right now. We're not as good at dealing with
00:19:22
Speaker
some of these novel energy storage systems. One of the articles I was reading about this incident in Australia notes that it comes just weeks after a Tesla lithium-ion battery energy storage facility, nicknamed Big Bessie, went up in flames in Queensland. So it's like, okay, there's some other issues here. But that's, you know, I tend to also come down to the side of
00:19:50
Speaker
It is going to be very important to learn how to manage these things and manage the safety of these systems, but I think especially relative to what we do now with fossil fuels, hydrocarbon fuels, it's something that I think will be manageable.
Labor and the Energy Transition
00:20:11
Speaker
Speaking of things that are heating up and possibly exploding, we're going to turn to our next piece of news. And this is something that's been going on for a while. I've been wanting to talk about it for a while. And that's, of course, the United Auto Workers strike in the United States. If you've somehow missed the story, which is a big, big story, the United Auto Workers is striking multiple facilities across the big three automakers in the United States.
00:20:39
Speaker
for General Motors and Stellantis, I believe. Maybe I'll mess that up. And one of the, I mean, the core issue, there's a lot of different issues, right? This fall out from the 2008 bailout and the pay cuts and pay freezes from that, the current state of manufacturing in the United States. But one of the big issues is the future of the electric vehicle industry and particularly
00:21:10
Speaker
you know, concerns about electric vehicle manufacturing and the impact that that will have on jobs, both the direct impact on, oh, these maybe electric vehicles require less labor, which I don't particularly buy into that as an argument, but more to the point that automakers will use the electric vehicle manufacturing transition
00:21:39
Speaker
as a way to transition from union facilities to non-union facilities, which has already been happening. If you look at where automakers are opening plants, they're opening them in South Carolina and Georgia and these other right-to-work Republican non-union states, and they're not opening them as much in Detroit.
00:22:03
Speaker
That is particularly because the United States government is aggressively funding these companies, right? They're giving them big loans. You've got the DOE doing the SK on Blue Oval thing. And, you know, one of the things like I think Ford put that project on pause and basically said, the unions are making it so we can't build this, right? I mean, they cited concerns about labor costs, which is, I think,
00:22:29
Speaker
pretty much just code for unions. But so far the strike has been fairly successful and you know a number of the automakers, I believe all three automakers at this point, have agreed to include EV and battery manufacturing facilities in a broader union agreement. They're still haggling over what that agreement will look like and there's been
00:22:51
Speaker
The strikes are sort of continuing to ratchet up across these different facilities, but it looks like the UAW is broadly going to get its way, at least on including these facilities into whatever deal it is. So there's a couple things I guess I would ask to the podcast here, to the Brain Trust.
00:23:14
Speaker
what is the responsibility or what do you see as the role for the Biden administration here? You know, Joe Biden has been relatively supportive. I mean, he visited the picket line and, you know, a number of people in Washington were like clutching their pearls about this, which I found really hilarious. But also, I'm just curious for your thoughts a bit more generally on labor.
00:23:40
Speaker
the sort of labor relationship element of the energy transition and the sustainable transition a bit more generally. So Mike, I'll kick it over to you first, because I'm curious for your read on this and then Karthik, I'll pass it to you next.
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think the public policy angle and the Biden administration is really critical here, right? That's a core part of the union's argument, right? As if taxpayer dollars are going to support and fund all of these facilities, then sort of the least that they can do is make sure that they're good paying jobs and well protected ones and union ones.
00:24:23
Speaker
particularly since the unions are big allies in general of the of the Biden administration. So it's not that surprising that they're, you know, democratic politicians in the US and are pretty aligned to unions. You know, there is definitely a certain tension with the industrial policy, right, and trying to do all this reshoring that
00:24:49
Speaker
that the Biden administration is doing and these kind of pro-union and the pro-union stance. And that if you look at countries that have been very successful with sort of industrial policy, notably China or even like the US, like in the very early days of Hamilton and the late 18th, early 19th century.
00:25:16
Speaker
A lot of that was based on basically suppressing wages and making these countries attractive for manufacturing through low wages, which is obviously not the direction that we want to go or realistically can go in the US or in Europe or other, Japan or other developed countries. But I think the key point with this is that it is true that
00:25:47
Speaker
electric vehicle manufacturing for a variety of reasons is going to be a bit less, you know, is, is going to be less labor intensive than traditional automotive manufacturing will be. Will it though? Like why? There's fewer parts and I think it's, it's, uh, yeah, but does that really translate to, to fewer jobs? Like, like, is it a supply chain thing? Like,
00:26:15
Speaker
Because I don't really see auto assembly as having fewer jobs. Where is the job? It's just going to be the supply chain is going to shrink somewhat, and we're not going to have as many fuel line filter plants, and all the little bits and bobs are going to go away. I think it's that, and yeah, an electric motor is just less complicated.
00:26:41
Speaker
supply chain aside, you know, the engines and things are generally built internally at these these big three automakers. I don't know. I mean, I'm not an expert in automotive manufacturing. Yeah, actually, I think the concerns that the labor union or the workforce in general has is all these robotic arms are going to come and replace our jobs because EVs are simpler machinery to attach or assemble.
00:27:09
Speaker
And so we are going to run out of jobs. Maybe I'm too young to say this, but in Willy Wonka, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Charlie's dad loses his job. And then in the end of the movie, he ends up becoming a mechanic that fixes the machine. Maybe education is what is necessary to bring the labor force up to speed and tell them, hey, we are going to use robots and stuff, but we will educate you to become the ones that maintains these robots.
00:27:39
Speaker
fixes them if there are any issues. I don't know. I've also had a lot of clients ask questions about automation in PV, where they're like, are we going to replace the need for human beings to install solar panels with robots that can autonomously install them at quicker rates? So I don't see that as becoming a big deal, at least in PV. But with EVs, I think maybe you need to draw something from my sarcasm off.
00:28:07
Speaker
I have two thoughts about this. One is tactically, I don't think labor costs are that big of a deal. If you look at battery packs, there are these huge factors of lithium prices and the availability of technology and the supply chain and all this stuff, and Ford being like,
00:28:29
Speaker
labor prices are going to make it uneconomical. That's totally ridiculous. That's just obviously not true. Especially because China, where all the batteries are manufactured, is not even that cheap in terms of labor anymore. It's not the lowest labor cost country by a significant margin. But those battery pack manufacturing sites are centralized there because
00:28:50
Speaker
the technology is, that's what the supply chain is, that's what the lithium processing is. So this idea that the strike or the labor situation is going to be a deal breaker is, to me, it's pretty patently ridiculous. Yeah, it's kind of, you know, it's opportunistic on both sides, right? Like you were saying earlier, the automakers are to some degree trying to use this transition to
00:29:13
Speaker
get more of the jobs into non-union states and get away from relying on the unions as much. And then unions are trying to use the fact that there's all this public support for these technologies to just kind of strong arm the leverage, the political support for getting the automakers to be more labor friendly. So I actually don't see it as opportunistic per se, right? And what I mean by that is there is a relationship between
00:29:43
Speaker
the mode of production, if you will, the technology and the social relations, right? And I think this is true of a lot of, I think a lot of sustainable technologies are going to come with a heightened power or heightened bargaining position for labor, right? Because fundamentally, the argument, the challenge with sustainable technologies, the point is
00:30:09
Speaker
you know, that you're trying to improve society somewhat, right? Like if you just didn't care, um, or you have the, you just were producing a technology that, you know, you're just sticking to gas cars, right? It's you can make the argument. It's like, look, we just don't care about any of these external factors, but the whole reason that you're maximizing shareholder value. We're just maximizing shareholder value, right? Burn baby, burn, uh, drill, baby, drill. But the whole point of doing this,
00:30:37
Speaker
sustainable technology, whether it's solar, wind or electric vehicles, is that you are acknowledging a non-shareholder value concern that you are trying to address, right? And that fundamentally, A, from a technology perspective, I think that changes people's relationship with the technology, with the car.
00:30:58
Speaker
It's like, why are you buying an EV? You're buying an EV because you care about a certain set of factors, right? And maybe that relationship, the consumer relationship will change over time as they become more ubiquitous and less of a specific choice you have to go out of your way to make.
00:31:14
Speaker
But certainly for the corporations, for the companies involved, they are being forced to acknowledge non-shareholder concerns, right? And the fundamental nature of the technology is one that you produce because of those things. So I think that just gets to the point of just creating a stronger environment for labor. I don't think it's a surprise or I don't think it's an accident or I don't really see it as opportunistic.
00:31:43
Speaker
Yeah, it's not an accident. And I think, you know.
00:31:47
Speaker
For more about this, come join our Lux Forum on October 24th in New York City, where you can listen if you talk about this. Yeah, it's not an accident, basically. It's that this is happening now. And we're going to see this continue to happen. And I think ultimately, the needle is going to shift more towards these labor concerns or this labor power in this sustainable era because of the changing relationship between production. Yeah, but I think what you said is important, though. That is true.
00:32:17
Speaker
some of the tactics I would, you know, maybe are still opportunistic, but I think the fundamental truth here is that, you know, these system transitions, energy transition, circular economy, consumer health, all these things that we talk about all the time,
00:32:33
Speaker
are fundamentally being driven much more by social concerns, you know, about the environment, about the climate, about health, rather than by simply by, you know, purely techno economic factors. And that means that a lot of different social concerns
00:32:52
Speaker
including labor are going to be much more bound up in the decisions.
Conclusion and Upcoming Events
00:32:58
Speaker
I think it comes mainly through the channel of public policy, but definitely not only that because of the fact that people are thinking in these different sorts of ways about sustainability or about resiliency and robustness and
00:33:16
Speaker
national autonomy or whatever the other factors might be. It's just bringing a lot more consideration of those other factors into the decisions that companies and innovators are making.
00:33:28
Speaker
Okay, we're gonna leave it there. I want to encourage everyone, as Mike said, register for our New York City Forum on October the 24th. That will be basically two weeks, I think, after this episode goes out, or maybe even one week.
00:33:46
Speaker
one week after this episode comes out. Register for our other forums as well. Check them out. I'll be at all three of the next forums. So if you love the podcast, you can come and say I love the podcast to me in person, I guess. I don't know where I was going with that. Get Anthony to autograph your favorite podcast player. I don't know.
00:34:12
Speaker
I will autograph your phone. Yeah, I will absolutely take a Sharpie to your iPhone. If the phone doesn't overheat. If the phone doesn't overheat. Yeah.
00:34:28
Speaker
Innovation Matters is a production of Lux Research, the leading sustainable innovation research and advisory firm. You can follow this podcast on Apple Music, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you want more, check out www.luxresearchinc.com slash blog for all of the latest news, opinions, and articles.