Transcript
Speaker: In leadership is about influence, right? Being a captain, wearing a captain's armband is about positional power, right? You have a position. But position means nothing. Influence means everything. So you don't have to be a captain to have tons of influence. And I think what's also really important is like your influence is never neutral.
Speaker: You always influence in either a positive or a negative direction. Your relationship with people is either growing or dying. It's never nothing. Right. And so being intentional about that is one of the most important things that you can do.
Speaker: Welcome to the Captains & Coaches Podcast, we explore the art and science of leadership through the lens of athletics and beyond. I'm your host Texel Cook, and it today is all about Captaincy. Going back to my college athlete days, I was team captain for three years and always fighting for resources to improve my leadership skills.
Speaker: Today's guest wrote the book I wish I had back then. John O'Sullivan is the founder of Changing the Game Project and co-host of the Way of Champions podcast. He's a former Fordham captain, pro soccer player, and has coached at every level. His new book with Dr. Jerry Lynch is Captain, the Athlete's Guide to Being an Exceptional Team Leader.
Speaker: We get into why leadership is a skill and not a trait, the best player trap, why your influence is never neutral, and how to slay the dragons in your locker room before they burn the whole team down.
Speaker: Really enjoyed this conversation with John. Thank you to Vinnie Maltz for the connection. If you enjoy this podcast and want to continue to develop as a coach, I encourage you to go captainsandcoaches.com.
Speaker: Click the education tab up top. I got two courses there. One, on leading the mental and emotional state of individuals. And two, leading the mental and emotional state of your team.
Speaker: The team is called punishment. Individuals, why they're not listening. taken that was resistant kid and turning them into a resilient leader. All right, no further ado. Let's hand it off to John who helps us raise the game. Ready, ready, and ready.
Speaker: John, thank you very much. Excited, dude. this This book has been a tool and a resource that I've been looking for, i mean, my whole coaching career and certainly when I was team captain, dude. So i'm grateful for your time.
Speaker: Grateful to our mutual friend, Viddy Maltz, for connecting us, dude. So welcome to the Captains and Coaches podcast. Thank you, man. When he connected us and you're like captains and coaches, i'm like, amen to that. That's perfect. Like what ah what a, what a perfect fit. And i'm excited to talk about the book with you and share some experiences and hear about yours.
Speaker: Yes, sir. so When I became team captain, i mean, i was team captain for three years of my college. I was absolutely the worst player on my college lacrosse team coming from Texas to play on the East Coast.
Speaker: But at the same time, I had a lot of the fundamental behaviors in place just through how I grew up that the other players, the coaches felt that they needed. So they leaned into me behavior first versus skill.
Speaker: And that's unique for the college level, I feel. I coach at the high school level currently, coach at college level, but often at the high school level, we see, hey you're the coolest kid or the best player, you get voted in.
Speaker: So I want to start this conversation leaning into a lot of what the book talks about and a lot of your great interviews out there, seeing and viewing leadership, not ah necessarily as a trait that's inherent, you're born with it, but a skill that can be cultivated and developed.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, that that's it in a nutshell. And I think it's a mistake because we sort of treat leadership as a character trait, right? Like, oh, yeah, she's a born leader, he's a born leader. Like, no, not really. These are things that, you know, you you might have a personality that tends to be proactive or take charge or, but by the same token, um these are still skills you can learn. And i I think you're right. Even today, though it's gotten better, i would say,
Speaker: Many college programs and certainly high school programs just, you know, pick the best kid and go, okay, you're the best player, you're the captain. And then they wonder why it blows up a lot. And so this is the part of the purpose of this book was like, hey, let's be intentional.
Speaker: about this um and but and and select on behaviors select on who meets the standards of our program and exhibits these behaviors as often as possible um those are the people who we should look to as leaders not the one who scores the most points or most goals or things like that and Within this leadership crisis, I mean, it's it's always been there. The challenge is to find the right fit and this balance between people that lead the team on the field and then people that take care of the 99.9% of practices and behaviors and school and everything else.
Speaker: So what do you feel? Is this a new crisis? Has it always been there? What's your opinion on this as a well-experienced coach leader in this field? Well, i I think maybe kids, high school kids get less leadership reps these days just because they get less reps at adulting anyway, right? It's just a reflection of society. We don't, you know, send our eight-year-old out to go play in the neighborhood and then just be home for dinner, right? So,
Speaker: My whole childhood, I'm 54. You know, I'm growing up leaving the house in the morning on a Saturday, coming back in the afternoon. Maybe I was playing pond hockey. Maybe I rode my bike four miles to a field and played baseball.
Speaker: And then I would come back. And then in that time, right, we're playing some game. There's an argument. You settle your dispute. you You deal with the issues.
Speaker: Today, or i have a 19 and 20-year-old. When they're growing up and there was an argument at recess in school, the teachers ended the game instead of letting kids sort out the argument. right There's so little pickup play that they don't. So you then put that on a high school kid or a college kid. They've just gotten a lot less reps of of how to lead, how to solve problems, how to mediate conflict, things like that.
Speaker: And so I just think now we just as a coach or whatever, we have to be like way more intentional about teaching it because if we're not teaching it, they're probably not getting the reps. Yeah. And,
Speaker: You and Dr. Lynch, you do an amazing job of framing and structuring the book so it can be taught, whether I'm a captain myself reading this or a coach that is leading these lessons. And so the the the three-part architecture, qualities, responsibilities, and challenges,
Speaker: I'm curious, man, just what was the the back and forth with Dr. Lynch on organizing this and structuring it for those three focuses for us to to hand it off to us to then learn or lead?
Speaker: Yeah. You know, it's funny you say that because, you know, this so this is our third book together. We did one on a teammate. We did one for parents and this one. And this was the one I was really excited about. And I started, you know, the way kind of books happen for me is I get an idea and then I'm like, oh, is this like a blog post or is this like something more?
Speaker: Then I start taking notes and I'll be on an airplane and lay some stuff out or whatever. So anyway, probably 18 months prior, I had um sort of put notes in my on my phone of like, well, how would I break down a book?
Speaker: And for me, I really wanted it to be short and sweet, you know really directed at that high school kid, um all that. Then Jerry said, hey, we should do a book for captains.
Speaker: And he had his own ideas. um And so then, you know, we we just kind of melded them. And actually, the structure of the book, we went more with his ideas of how we broke it up. um Mine would have been shorter and sweeter.
Speaker: um Not sweeter, but definitely shorter, right? Like, ah but, you know, we we have a really good working relationship as we decide on like, okay, who's, you know, who's... ah you know, whose idea here, and then the way it worked out, you know, we we had first qualities and responsibilities. And like, for my, my big thing was, I want to deal with challenges.
Speaker: I want kids to have opportunities to work through the biggest issues. And I want to reach out to high school coaches and college coaches and their captains, and find out what these challenges were. So that was a big part that I was like, it can't just be like us telling them like, Hey, here, here's, here's your peers and here's what they're saying. And so, yeah, that's how it came together. And then, you know, you kind of write and like, you know what, we need a chapter on this or, Hey, this chapter and this chapter, they're kind of the same thing.
Speaker: Let's just make them into one. So it's a, it's a process, but we did that. We probably wrote this book in about six weeks. like it was really quick. I had surgery on my neck. So I couldn't like ski bike, do yoga, go to the gym or anything except write a book. So I was just I was just banging out chapters. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, I just interviewed Martin Rooney, amazing, phenomenal coach. And he was cooped up in his home with his his kids. And they got into an argument.
Speaker: And his daughter turned around and says, Well, I'm not going outside. You need to go write that book. You're like, you're not writing your book. And he's like, fine. And then sat down and this basically hammered it out. Coach to Coach, phenomenal book.
Speaker: yeah great But he used that that stationary time and aggression and energy and put it into some great work. Yeah. you You do a great job of pulling real life stories and examples. And I imagine, dude, congrats on 500 podcast episodes. A lot of those conversations turned into some of these stories in the book.
Speaker: I'd love to highlight Shane Battier's perspective. I'm a Houston Rockets fan. I remember watching Battier in college and the pros. So what was his transition and jump from college to the pros that led to a valuable lesson that you all highlight?
Speaker: Yeah. And, and know, what's a cool story, Texas, that was the first chapter that we wrote. So when we decided to do this, I wrote that chapter and I was, I sent to Jerry like this, how I'm imagining it.
Speaker: Like, here's a good story about a very important topic with some lessons and questions at the end. Right. And, um, you know, so, so Shane, when Jerry, uh, he worked with Duke basketball when Shane was an athlete there and he's, he's a, he's a different guy. Like he's very, very smart. He's like a theology major or, philosophy or something. Anyway, yeah. hes yeah So he told us the story, know, coming out of Duke to final fours, national championship player of the year, very used to like a, a standard of how things happen every day. And he's like, I get drafted the NBA and,
Speaker: And there's, you know, i was shocked. He goes, I go to the first day of preseason and we have a mile run for fitness and four guys can't even run a mile and they're getting paid millions of dollars a year.
Speaker: Then we lose our first 10 games. And um so we have a players meeting and I speak up and I'm like, hey, you know, this is not good enough. Like, where's the leadership? Where's the standards here? And they're like, shut up rookie, you know, go, go sit in the corner.
Speaker: And so his decision in that moment, they had another first round draft pick Pau Gasol. And they were like, well, we'll just go do the right thing. He's like, so we started showing up early. We started doing the work.
Speaker: And then we sort of gave permission to other guys that this is an okay thing to do. And that's what was really cool about it was like first week or 10 days, there was two of them. And then all of a sudden there was four and then there's six. And he said, you know, within, you know, 12 months, 14 months, most of those guys who couldn't run a mile were gone because they just didn't meet the standard anymore.
Speaker: And so I think the the lesson behind this, that chapters lead by example, is that that's the first step of leadership. You have to do all the right things um to earn your voice. I'm a rookie. I don't have a voice, but I do the right things.
Speaker: And and ah can I just throw in one other story, which I think is super cool. um And this didn't make the book only because we recorded this podcast after the book went to press, but we had the coach of the San Jose Sharks, the and NHL on.
Speaker: And they... they um ah they have a, I guess he's 19 now. um And I am just totally spaced in his name, but basically like he, he's their best player and he he's a leader at 19 and he captained ah team Canada in the world cup this, this past summer, right? 19 years old. And he's playing with Sidney Crosby and Conor McDave and all these guys. And he's the captain. and um,
Speaker: And I said, like, how is that? and he says, you know, who's the fittest guy in preseason? You know, who um plays every practice like it's his last, you know, who plays every game like it's his last.
Speaker: You do that and you just earn the respect of the grown men in the locker room who are like, this is this is how it's done. You come in with an ego and a lot of words and you don't back them up with actions. You'll you'll never you'll never make it.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I ah just was up in Boston and interviewed Coach Mike Boyles, famous training coach. Fantastic person. And we were talking about team captaincy and the his conflict with the NHL is often organizations at the pros. Because we were discussing captaincy levels at high school, college and pros.
Speaker: He said the NHL is different because... in order to to save face, they they put that that star, 18-year-old first-round pick, first overall pick, as the captain, forward-facing, and they don't necessarily give him the tools and the opportunity. But on a high-level national team, I can see where Sidney's been in it so long, he sees that, okay, I'm going to support, and part of leadership is following.
Speaker: ah And I'd love to get into now differences in competency level at high school versus college. And I mean, Shane did a great example by leading by example, even at the pros.
Speaker: With the book targeted for high school, what are some differences between high school and colleges that you've learned from your experience as a coach and 500 podcasts plus?
Speaker: Yeah. and And first, I think it's important to say, like, most of the things are the same, right? There's not a huge difference of of what the qualities are and the expectations are and things like that. I think if you want to focus on a difference, if I'm a college team captain, I'm now trying to lead and manage and herd the cats of a bunch of young men or young woman women who are living away from home the first time.
Speaker: Right. So there's a lot of different influences in their lives that may give them opportunities to make bad decisions, right? To not eat well, to not get sleep, to not do that, right? So if I'm a high school team captain, that's up to the parents. I'm a college team captain. You know, I might have to be the one who goes to the bar and grabs the kid and goes, get out of the bar.
Speaker: Like, this is not how we do things here. So I would say, i would say that, and obviously there's a little more ah attention on it. Right. So, you know, like we have, uh, one of last year's college football playoff teams, you know, use the book for 40 leaders this summer and they're using it. Now those guys are being asked to lead under a huge spotlight, right?
Speaker: Right. You do something stupid on the game. It's on e ESPN. You do something. It's on the newspaper. It's on the news that night. So they they have a a responsibility to protect the team and, and, and keep guys on the straight and narrow um much more so than a high school kid might. But yeah,
Speaker: For the rest of the stuff, you know, leading with love, being selfless, um learning to give and not get, um doing what the team needs, all that sort of stuff. I mean, I don't think there's a difference.
Speaker: Nice, yeah. And then, I mean, at any level, leadership takes reps and an environment for you to step into that. And then as a strength and conditioning professional, I don't think there's a better environment than the weight room, because it's just our team.
Speaker: There's no cameras. There's no the stress of the ESPN highlights. It's a place where we can learn to fail, have conflict, confrontation, short reps, not doing every rep in the set.
Speaker: you know, just distracted from your group versus what's on the card. So now, how are some opportunities, just like the weight room within practice that we can give leaders to get reps in environments where they're allowed to fail, and then learn with a coach or another captain in place that that is a great environment for these young leaders?
Speaker: Yeah, it's a great thing. And I want to touch on, first of all, I think your role as a strength and conditioning coach is such a huge one. And a lot of high schools are starting to add that position.
Speaker: And that makes you the perfect person to teach this. So, you know, we have schools where, you know, they've they've bought the book for all their team captains of all the seasons. But the one person who sees those every athlete is the strength and conditioning coach probably much more so than anyone else, unless you have like an athletic trainer or something like that. Right. So like your role is the perfect person to teach this, to teach the curriculum, to teach them about the book and leadership and, and have this relationship with them. That's not going to determine whether you start this game, but can really focus on their behaviors and how they go about stuff off the field, off the ice or whatever. So just want to, um, you know, touch on that as a really important thing. um I'm forgetting your question because I went off on a tangent, but. what
Speaker: Highlighting. environments like in, uh, allowing us to fail and then coaches, other leaders, you need to give those kids grace when they have leadership reps with bad tone or maybe the wrong attitude, like give allowing us to get leadership reps. Yeah. It's such a great, great question. So I would say two things, grace and space. You have to give them the space to lead.
Speaker: Um, we, we had, um, a coach on or either the coach that worked with, a top, top level women's lacrosse coach. She played at university of Maryland, won multiple national championships and her coach there, is Cindy Timshel legend, legendary coach.
Speaker: And they were having a problem with a couple of players and their attitudes and behavior. So they went to Cindy and they were like, Hey Cindy, like, so this is, you know, going on, this is happening. Um,
Speaker: you know, what do you want to do? and And Cindy goes, okay, yeah, that's important. We have to deal with that. I'm going to be 15 minutes late today. Go figure it out. Right? Like she put it back on them. So as the coach, I can't solve every problem.
Speaker: If I want, i have to give space, I have to give them the chance to do some reps, just like I have to have ah an environment where kids can make mistakes on the field or on the court. Well, they have to be able to make mistakes in leadership, but then I got their back.
Speaker: right? So like going through a book like this, where it's like, you're doing it together, like you shouldn't just get it and go hand this book to your captains and go, all right, go do this. Now you're a captain. Like, no, you should be going through it with them and talking about these challenges and these issues and, And and saying, no, hey, Tex, you know that chapter on selflessness? Like, that's a quality that I see in you so much.
Speaker: Like, you're pouring into those kids the same as they're trying to pour into their teammates. And and if you, you know, again, some people really, they've before they get to you, they've had a lot of this or they've grown up in a family where, know, you know, their dad is the boss or something like that. you know, my dad was a fire chief. Jerry's dad was a fire chief. Like, so we saw a lot of examples of leadership when I was growing up.
Speaker: And so it just sort of, you know, marinates in you. But for most kids, like, no, you're going to to give them the space. And then you give them, like you said, the grace when they screw it up. And let's sit down. How did how did that go?
Speaker: um You know, what went well about that conversation or that interaction? What what didn't go as well? what what can we What can we do differently? All right, let's go deal with it again tomorrow. Time out. Text here at trainheroic headquarters meeting with the team to talk about the coaching experience that I'm able to provide for my athletes. So if you're a coach and want to put your program out there on an app that athletes actually enjoy using, Train Heroic's for you. I've been using it since 2014, delivering literally over tens of thousands of workouts to athletes, and Train Heroic allows me to provide the unique coaching experience that I want to.
Speaker: Uploading video, providing coaching feedback, directions, and building a community, that's why I love Train Heroic. And if you want to take your athletes where they can't take themselves, that they want to go, head to trainheroic.com slash captains and check out how you can deliver programming to them.
Speaker: And now back to the show. Ready, ready, and we're ready. Man, I love it. Yeah. Within, ah I lead awesome awesome, fun workshops, either brought in to work with team captains within the athletic department or teams bring me in and I basically take over the team for the day.
Speaker: And two things that I really love to do is have coffee with the captains, no coaches there. Hey, guys, lay it out for me. What's what's going on? Where's the conflict? Who's roommates? Who's button heads? How's that going?
Speaker: So get the gist. And then I have a segment that's specific to that conflict. So I give them simple scenarios, you know, dirty dishes, yeah forgot your shorts, you know, rare wearing the wrong thing for the lift.
Speaker: And then we duke it out. But I give them different conflict scenarios of how people are going to step to you. And we do some fun role playing. And there's humor built in. So I'm trying to give them these opportunities with grace and humor so that now, hey when they realize and we both have a thread of the same book,
Speaker: dragons don't exist. So this is where he introduced dragons. And I know you've talked about that as well. I learned about it from Jordan Peterson's 12 rules for life and found that value there.
Speaker: Yeah. He did. He did a talk on it that inspired my pet, the dragons reading that book as well. Yeah. So, you know, talking about it, like, Hey, these little dragons, we can flush them down the toilet or they're going to sneak up in week three of the season and burn this whole place down.
Speaker: Yeah. So, All that to say, man, i'd'd I'd love to hear the dragon's perspective and how you teach it and see if there's some parallels that our listeners can take away.
Speaker: Well, I heard Jordan Peterson did a ah lecture. I think he was a professor at a college and it was recorded and he talked about this book, There's No Such Thing as a Dragon, right? And he went through it and and his lecture was about life, right? that That, you know, your marriages, your relationships, your problems in work, whatever. and And, you know, the story, the little kid's book is is about a little kid who wakes up and there's this cute little kitten-sized dragon and he pets it and it's cute and small. And then throughout the day, His parents keep saying there's no such thing as a dragon. and
Speaker: every time they say that, the dragon grows and it eventually takes over the house. And then the house goes away until mom and dad go, well, maybe there is a dragon. And then it gets small and cute again.
Speaker: And I love the story because, you know, we learned this lesson when we were five, when we read this book. But that's every locker room has dragons. There's no team that doesn't have them.
Speaker: And so it's you got to acknowledge them and keep them small. And I do these same meetings with captains like you do. And I'm like, what what are they? And they can name them. Yeah. I'm like, and what have you done about it? Well, you know, sent him a text. No, that's not solving it. Right. Like it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger now in your role or like my role as an outside team consultant.
Speaker: Sometimes that outside voice can come in, mediate, have a discussion, sit the team down, get them to acknowledge it, get them to talk about what's behind it.
Speaker: And I've seen some pretty powerful, um, moments of team growth yeah um that have led to championships because they acknowledged a dragon because they had the courage to have a difficult conversation.
Speaker: And I just think that is, you know, one of the biggest things that as a coach, I shouldn't ever think, oh, yeah, no, we're great. Like, I should just always assume there's something going on. And I should be asking like, hey what are the dragons in the locker room? What are the issues? What do we need to address?
Speaker: And really help my leaders address them. Yeah, and then What's beautiful about the coffee is you get to know the dudes that are eventually going to lead the team through that season and their different character and personality types. Some have the the confidence to step in the lead, but some are really skilled.
Speaker: And then they view that as the superpower. So you do a great job in the book talking about the best player trap. So. I still want to give these guys the tools and the confidence because they they're confident with their skills, but not necessarily conflict.
Speaker: So explain the best player trap and how the book helps lead this individual to find their voice. Well, it's very easy to, you know, when you're the best player to give very little thought to how you got there, right? Or or how it is.
Speaker: And i think also some kids who are the best player, like you can be like, you know, I can give 80% and still be the best player.
Speaker: But then I just told everyone else it's cool to give 80%, right? even though they're not as good as I am. and and so I think that that's one of the traps that like the the best player can fall into is like, oh man, number two, I get to take all the shots. I get to score the goals. I get to score the points um versus like a guy like Tim Duncan, right? Who is like, well, what needs to be done? Or a guy like Shane Battier, right? That was called the no stats all-star.
Speaker: just the guy who whatever team you add him to makes it better because he's willing to defend the other team's best player. He's willing to, um he's just willing to do all the things to rebound, to dive for loose balls, whatever it is. And and so I think this is it. we We sort of get this myth that like the best captains are the best players, but oftentimes they're the ones who are just willing to do that. The best teams, their captains are often a guy without the stats who's willing to do the dirty work. and do the small things and let someone else get the accolades.
Speaker: But that, but the person who leads is, is, um you know, without that, they wouldn't have the success. Yeah. And then it's, it's, it's special when that very talented individual starts to step into the role leader and then starts leading from everywhere on the field, the general, they want the ball and in the huddle and outside of practice. So it's a special thing.
Speaker: So now I want to transition to influence because you mentioned 80%. I give 80% and I'm still the best player that influences the team without them knowing.
Speaker: And there's different levels of influence and that you talk about in the book. So speak to us in your mindset to teach influences more than just pushing and telling somebody to do something and they do it.
Speaker: Well, yeah, in leadership is about influence, right? Being a captain, wearing a captain's armband is about positional power, right? You have a position.
Speaker: But position means nothing. Influence means everything. So you don't have to be a captain to have tons of influence. And I think what's also really important is like your influence is never neutral.
Speaker: You always influence in either a positive or a negative direction. Your relationship with people is either growing or dying. It's never nothing. Right. And so being intentional about that is one of the most important things that you can do. um And if you just will acknowledge the fact that my influence is never neutral, well, how how do I want to influence people, right? Positively or negatively. Now, if I'm a captain, I'm probably an upperclassman. I'm probably a senior or a junior. ah This might be my last year, right?
Speaker: i want to do well. So I better influence people in a good way because I need them to do well in a team sport. You know, I was just working with a division one wrestling team.
Speaker: And, you know, theyre they're captains. I mean, they're trying to influence people in so many different ways. Like how do they, you know, how do you eat? How do you do weight management? How do you take care of yourself? How do you make sure you can show up for a match ready to wrestle when you've cut weight? Nevermind the hard work in the room. Like I work with a lot of teams and i'm like, all right. We got to work harder. We're going compete harder.
Speaker: It's not necessarily the case oftentimes with a wrestling team. Like those guys work so hard, right? And and so, you know, how how, but how can we influence a better way? Well, let's go beyond working hard into competing.
Speaker: I want to win every rep. I want to win everything. I want to make it hard for you to, you know, work on that takedown move or or that reverse move. I'm going to make it hard so it feels more like a match. Um, that's the kind of stuff I think where where they can really influence people.
Speaker: And, and so this team, you know, i talked to their captains and I asked them, I'm like, where'd you learn it? And the guy learned it from so-and-so who was ahead of me. Yeah. Right. So I learned what it looked like to take care of myself, eat well, sleep well, so that I could be a successful division one wrestler.
Speaker: Right. I learned that by example from other people. I didn't know it coming in here because the jump is so big. Mm-hmm. Man, i I love that. And those those guys are competitive and there's no hiding in wrestling.
Speaker: No. So you are an individual. All your preparation is out there on the mat and display. And you get an opportunity, hopefully, with some good guidance to reflect. And ah the challenge I see at the high school level, speaking of trying and making it hard on your teammates to to push them and get better, at some point, trying became not cool.
Speaker: Why? I don't know if you've seen this trend, but what happened to trying? Like, is that a try hard or you you don't want to glaze? What's going on here I think this is just, you know,
Speaker: I think part of it goes back to, you know, the work of Carol Dweck and like fix versus growth mindset, right? So fix mindset, people don't try hard because if i try hard and and I don't do well, well, I'm just not, I'm just not good. I don't have worth versus that growth mindset person. Who's like, I'm not good yet, but I'm going to give my best effort so I can get better.
Speaker: So I can be coached. So, you know, I think that type of, criticism, like that's a role of a coach. You have to create an environment where you celebrate those people who are competing every day.
Speaker: And if you see that person getting, you know, you know, crap from teammates for working hard for competing, man, that's the thing you nip that in the bud right away, right? In your weight room, you know, you get someone going, Oh yeah, look at you lifting all that weight. Like, you know what?
Speaker: Get the hell out. and come back here when you're ready to do it because that's how things are done here. And so I think as coaches, we we need to reward the things that we value and working, like how do I coach someone if they're not giving their their best? you know How do you teach someone in ah in a weight room if they could lift 20 more pounds, but they're not even trying to do it? Like, I don't know what you're capable of. So I need to see you perform with full focus and full effort. And now I can coach you because now I know what you can and can't do.
Speaker: and And so that that I think comes on a ah ah coach thing. And, you know, much like the Shane Battier story, when all of a sudden it's like, oh yeah, okay, this is okay here.
Speaker: Now more people are gonna do it. Cause I don't think most people sign up for a sport going, you know what? I don't wanna win and I don't wanna really try hard. Like, I don't think that's how it works. No.
Speaker: Yeah. I love that tools for the weight room. i I try to use kettlebells that take focus and attention. And if you do it well and properly, that there's grooves to the movement pattern and you find a rhythm.
Speaker: If you don't focus, you could drop the weight and it feels weird and you're trying harder. So I've tapped into kettlebells for those attention. Not the Smith machine. No, not the work. Yeah. Within the weight room, there's intrinsic motivation because I got my time with them, but there's guys doing extra work.
Speaker: I often don't program bench press and curls because that's just what teenage boys lean into doing the extra work. But that's not everybody. So intrinsic motivation, ah i want to highlight over 70% of kids, they quit organized sports by 13.
Speaker: And this is adult pressure or, quote, the great race to nowhere. So how how do you see adults inadvertently stripping away teenager ownership and stealing away intrinsic motivation and taking away the joy of discovering like who you are through sport?
Speaker: Well, I think the last part you said there that joy has to come first. You got love what you do, right? 500th podcast episode. We had Steve Kerr on talking about the Warriors. Their number one value is joy.
Speaker: They're trying to win a championship. They're a professional team and joy comes first. And he's like, you know, when we're not playing well, there's usually not enough joy in that locker room.
Speaker: And that's what we have to fix, right? So as a parent, My role is to help my kid fall in love with their sport because if they love it, then they'll also work through those hard moments.
Speaker: You know, um if I don't love it and it gets hard, yeah, I'm going to quit. But i love this and I get injured. If I love this and, you know, I lose my spot, I'm willing to go fight for it. Like that, that, that's where that kind of stuff comes from. And so I think we can never forget you know,
Speaker: That joy comes first. and And then from that, ownership, right? So it's got to be your kids' goals, their dreams, their stuff. And those are the things that breed intrinsic motivation, which is the fuel.
Speaker: um So what can take it away too is parents living vicariously through their kids. Right. We struck out 10 batters today, right? We scored three goals.
Speaker: We scored 20 points. No, you didn't, right? And so it's done out of love, but but that stealing of ownership, you know ah you'd be amazed how many kids I worked with over the years that were very good soccer players that were like, yeah, coach, you know um I'm done. High school's good for me. i got more I want to do in college. And their parents are like, oh, no, like they're going to go play at whatever. I'm like, no, they're not.
Speaker: Like you can't force them to do that because it's really hard to play a college sport. They're going to get there and they're just going to, they're not going to play well. They'll probably get hurt.
Speaker: They won't be fit. They'll be miserable and they'll be missing out on all these other things. They'll drag down that team as well. Like the, you gotta to love it. So, you know, joy and love of sport ownership breeds intrinsic motivation. And as a parent, like, you know, just be their fan.
Speaker: Yeah. And, You touched on the river framework as an opportunity for coaches and team leaders to use this to to to build some motivation in the team. So let's introduce that and and see where it takes us.
Speaker: Yeah, so the river is a concept. It's an acronym that we use. It means that when you make people feel relevant, right, when you make them feel important, ah when you validate what they have to say,
Speaker: um when you empower them to to have a voice and to have ownership, and when you show them respect, R-I-V-E-R, that's when people perform their best, right? And if you doubt that, do the opposite, right? Don't give people a voice, disrespect them, make them feel like they don't matter and see if they're going to perform well, right?
Speaker: You wouldn't work for a business that made you feel that way. Why would you think as a coach or a parent that a kid's going to do well in sports if you make them feel that way? No. And they're there is a lot of you know autonomy autonomy and enjoyment that that can create and lead to. So we're not telling everything in order to to lead with that river. We're asking questions and learning and we can't help but work that into the the practice plan or how we're communicating.
Speaker: So that that's why I feel it's so so valuable. And parents can take that as well. like Use that framework as a conversation guide on the ride home or at the dinner table versus critiquing any dangers that you've seen like you you're a father your kids played sports anything that maybe you you crossed the line or example that you personally have from that leading athletes you know not as coach look i
Speaker: I've made my kids cry in the car, right? Like out of love, just wanting them to give a better effort or a better whatever. Like, yeah. So I feel terrible about it. Right. But it was like, you know, I wrote books about this and I said, it's hard. It's hard. Cause you just want to help.
Speaker: And you have to recognize that each, each kid is their own human being who wants something different. like my daughter, she would ask like, you know she'd get in the car and be like, hey, dad, how do you think I did today? right And I got better at the end going, okay, well, you know what went well for you today? And and you know what needed work? And um what can you focus on in practice this week? So three questions to keep it consistent, whether she had her best game or worst game, whether they won or they lost. um My son never cared in the car, right? He's like, where's the food?
Speaker: Like, when can i eat, right? That was what he wanted. And then, but then we had an agreement like, hey, when we, you know, tonight afterwards, you know, when the emotion's gone, when you're not tired, do you want to talk about it or tomorrow morning? And so we could talk about it when the emotion was out of the game.
Speaker: um and And so just recognizing that with your kids that usually the car ride home is not a teachable moment. It's it's like the worst moment to ever debrief a game, especially after a hard loss or a bad performance.
Speaker: Yeah. And i mean, the aim is I feel i try to educate parents the best I can to uncouple performance from self-worth.
Speaker: Yeah. So they, There are challenges with that because they care so much. And then I've seen dragons of parents on the sidelines where i i didn't have the the social emotional skills to deal with them. So then I turned my back and focused on the team.
Speaker: And then I've seen parents tear programs down and it is heartbreaking because I live in a small town. I think the high school coach, the youth coach especially, but even the college coach now, you you have to pay attention to the to parents um because they have the most especially on the youth level and high school level, they have the most influence, right? They're taking the kid home or whatever. So if you're gonna be like, you know I don't talk to parents, I don't whatever, like they're gonna fill that void and usually with bad stuff. But I mean, again, I work with college teams and you know there's kids
Speaker: at that level who are struggling and you know, their dad is in the stands going, you should transfer. You should get out of here. That coach is an idiot. You should be playing more. That's not helping.
Speaker: It's not solving their problem. ah Dad is doing that out of love But it's not it's not making your kid better in this moment versus, you know what?
Speaker: Just do a little extra. Just keep your head down. Be the best player in practice. Work super hard. Be super coachable. Make an incredible impression. And then at the end of the year, if it's not a good fit, then you transfer. And that coach goes, you know what?
Speaker: What a great kid. he He was beat out. He was the second string goalkeeper. But my God. you know what, no one works harder in practice. No one supports the guy in front of them more.
Speaker: He was amazing. Right? Yeah. And want to transfer, you better have the coaches loving you. That, that is key because i mean, I've coached the college level. It is a very small network.
Speaker: So they're all friends. Like there's annual coaches conferences. They're all coming together and they're going to tell you, Hey, this guy's coming your way. Watch out. Or the opposite.
Speaker: I heard a great interview, Nick Saban. He said the two most important words for that transfer or athletes going to the pro level are and and but.
Speaker: He's got great stick work, great footwork, and he was team captain and he's got great leadership. Or he's got great stick work, he's got great footwork, but XYZ.
Speaker: He's a cancer. Yeah. Yeah. man, that that really jumped out to me dealing with the ands and the buts in my coaching career. I do want to wind down one of the most valuable tools that I found with the book.
Speaker: This is like a workbook. You present each chapter and then provide reflective questions at the end and there's spaces for us to hand write in the book.
Speaker: That's why I buy hard copies of books so I can just tear it apart with notes. So thank you for providing me lines to actually write in it. What was the the inspiration there to turn this into a workbook style rather than just talk at us?
Speaker: You know, in the world today, information is not the problem. We all have information at our fingertips. there This guy, Derek Sivers, he says, if information was the the issue, we'd all be millionaires with six pack apps, right? It's not about information, right? Knowledge is about action. It's about taking that and and doing something with it. So we wanted to write a book.
Speaker: that had basically you know the ability to like, hey, here's the story, here's the concept and reflect on it. What are you doing? What do you need to start doing that you're not doing to be a more selfless leader?
Speaker: What do you need to stop doing that you are doing You know, how can your coaches support you in this? Like questions like that at the end of each chapter. And then what we also did with this book is we created a like a 10 session curriculum.
Speaker: So in the back of the book, there's a QR code. It's free. um You scan it, put in your email, you download the thing. And it basically gives you as a coach or whoever the ability to, you know, walk through 10, 30 to 45 minute sessions to break down the book.
Speaker: And um the cool part about it is it gives additional activities outside of what's in the book, additional questions for reflection. And so what's been cool is this fall,
Speaker: been working with a couple of schools where like every two weeks I have all their fall team captains, 20 kids in a room. And we're working through different highlights of the book and helping them lead in this one school. Like, you know, they just had the fall captains they were like, oh yeah, no, we're doing this for winter and spring. Send me 40 more books. Let's get these dates on the calendar. like the kid, the kids are so much better because there's an outside voice teaching them. So that part's been really cool as well is just this, um, it's a place for athletes and coaches to reflect, but then there's also like this next level of, Hey, if I really want to teach this, you know, and there's people again who work in schools like, Oh, this is great. I had a student athlete leadership class. I have to teach. Thanks for writing my curriculum for versus whatever. So,
Speaker: Hey, yeah, it's getting the message out there and it it is needed. So final couple of questions here. Favorite fictional coach of all time from movie or film?
Speaker: Probably Denzel Washington because he's a Fordham guy like me. But yeah, yeah. Remember remember the Titans? Yeah, Coach Boone's a popular answer.
Speaker: And then, I mean, favorite sports movie of all time if it's different from the fictional coach? Oh, man. You know, i was listening, just listening to an interview with Dana White um the other day, UFC guy. And he mentioned a movie that I loved as a kid because I was a wrestler. Vision Quest.
Speaker: Yes. Killer. Killer movie. Oh, yeah. I was like, yes, that's one of the... And remember the Titans, Hoosiers, they're all great. But man, Vision Quest, that's a movie.
Speaker: Oh, dude. Yeah, that's that's I'm getting goosebumps because Elmo's motivational speech in the hotel room and he's talking about soccer like that's that's top for me.
Speaker: Yeah, it's not it's not six minutes. It's what you do in the six minutes. That is it. and So to to to close this out, if a coach has they a newly elected captain in their first six minutes,
Speaker: What do you recommend that conversation goes like? Is it telling them what to do? Is it asking them questions? What happens in that six minutes with a newly appointed captain? I think in that moment, it's like, congratulations. You know, you've, you're a captain because of a, however you're selected, your teammates, you know, see qualities in you, your coaching staff sees quality. So ever, however you got there, right. Congratulations.
Speaker: There's a lot of responsibility. How can I support you in your journey? Would you like resources, books? Should we meet every week? how How can I support you in being a better leader? think that's what you do. Go and let them drive the bus.
Speaker: Beautiful. Awesome. John, thank you very much for your time. Very beneficial. I'll link up the captain book in the show notes and then changing the game project.com. Where else can people go to follow you and continue to learn from your work? yeah that's it. The podcast that Jerry and I do is called wave champions. That's on Spotify and YouTube and everything like that. There's 500 episodes there each an hour, a little bit more. So yeah i mean, you can go down that rabbit hole for a really long time. right there and that's got everyone from Steve Kerr to Phil Jackson to you know Olympic wrestling coaches tons of Hall of Fame lacrosse coaches Gary Gates Cindy Timschel Acacia Walker you know Jenny Levy so yeah you want that athletes coaches authors sports psychologists Mike Boyle's been on there Martin Rooney's been on there so there you go great minds all right John we'll let you go man appreciate you
Speaker: Thank you very much. Hey, thank you, Tex. This was great. All right. See
