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Episode #135: Kerri Ruttenberg
135 Plays6 years ago
Kerri Ruttenberg is a partner at Jones Day and the Head of Litigation for the firm’s Washington, D.C. office. She has tried cases in state and federal courts around the country, representing clients in a broad range of cases including...
The post Episode #135: Kerri Ruttenberg appeared first on PolicyViz.
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Transcript
Introduction to Kerry Ruttenberg and Her Book
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome back to the Policy Viz Podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabisch. On this week's episode, I get to walk about 10 blocks east of my office to meet with Kerry Ruttenberg, who is the author of new book, Images with Impact, Design and Use of Winning Trial Visuals. It's a really interesting new book on how to use data visualization.
00:00:32
Speaker
for lawyers, especially in trial settings. And I'm always interested in how different fields are using data visualization. So I met up with Kerry at her office here in DC, and we chatted about the book and what it's like to present information and data to a jury. So here is my interview with Kerry.
00:00:58
Speaker
So I'm here with Carrie Ruttenberg, author of the book Images with Impact, Design and Use of Winning Trial Visuals. Carrie, welcome to the show. Thank you. Great to chat with you. Great to have you
Courtroom Technology Variability
00:01:10
Speaker
here. I'm excited to talk to you about a book of data visualization for lawyers, not just all these different fields. Everybody's excited about data visualization.
00:01:20
Speaker
Could you start by telling folks a little bit about yourself on how you came to say, I want to write a book on data visualization. I'm assuming you weren't defending clients because they're making bad data viz. No, there's been no data visualization prosecution that I'm aware of yet. All right, good. All right. No, so I'm a trial lawyer. I've been trying cases for about 20 years.
00:01:43
Speaker
have a bit of a visual and psychology background and so this was sort of an interesting niche that I didn't know existed before I started practicing. Found it absolutely fascinating and realized that there was an appreciation for the need for better visuals amongst my legal colleagues but no idea how to do it. And so I started teaching lawyers about 13 years ago
00:02:08
Speaker
got some fabulous feedback from those programs and even people who would come multiple times to sort of refresh their learning. I started having people say, what if there's no budget?
Engaging Jurors with Effective Visuals
00:02:20
Speaker
Can you teach some graphic design? And so with the huge caveat that I am not a trained graphic designer,
00:02:26
Speaker
And I strongly encourage my colleagues to hire those folks as I do when there's money in the budget. There's not always money in the budget. And so I wanted to be able to help folks improve their own visuals and frankly communicate more effectively and efficiently with others and eventually decided there ought to be a book that's really geared toward lawyers. The funny thing is now one of the biggest pieces of feedback I get on the book is from people who say, you know, this isn't just for trial.
00:02:54
Speaker
Which is a good thing that I recognize that but as your publisher probably told the same thing You write a book for everybody. Nobody's gonna read it correct pick that group so paint a picture for us of What it means to visualize data for a lawyer like my image of a courtroom is you know law and order? Yeah
00:03:13
Speaker
Where they don't use a lot of visuals. They don't use a lot of visuals. So paint a picture for us of what it's like to be in the courtroom and showing visuals. Is it big TVs? Is it projectors? Walk us through it. It has evolved tremendously over the years, as you might imagine, but it is still highly dependent on the courtroom. Some jurisdictions are known for being more high-tech.
00:03:33
Speaker
You'll see that a lot when there is a newer courthouse, a courthouse that has been renovated. Usually they incorporate more technology. So I have been in some courtrooms, and I'm thinking of one in particular that was a four month long trial in a federal court that was considered a high tech
Importance of Visuals in Trials
00:03:50
Speaker
courtroom.
00:03:51
Speaker
And at one point, I sat back and I counted, and there were 19 monitors that were being used. And that was because every single juror had a monitor essentially at their seat in the jury box. There was one at the witness box. The judge had one. The clerk had one. Each of the counsel tables had multiple because it was a multi-defendant trial.
00:04:11
Speaker
And then there were two large screens because it was a highly public trial that were aimed at the audience that was watching. So that's one extreme. Then I've been in other courtrooms where there is basically nothing provided so you have to bring in what you need and I've had to bring in
00:04:29
Speaker
Projectors and screens and laptops and cords get permission from the court. Usually it requires a court order. A lot of times you can't just bring equipment into a courthouse like that. So it really runs the gamut. And the takeaway is you have to know in advance what your courtroom is going to be like. You've got to plan for it.
00:04:49
Speaker
I tell people you should sit in the jury box when there's nobody in the courtroom so that you have a sense of what they can see, whether there are obstructions, where you're going to need to be showing visuals to witnesses.
Structure and Content of 'Images with Impact'
00:05:01
Speaker
Layouts of courtrooms differ, so it's pretty easy to figure it out. You just need to go in advance and determine what you're going to need and how you're going to need to show it. When you're speaking, do you get to
00:05:14
Speaker
up the space as you like. So you get to put the projector where you want it and be able to walk around. I mean, how does it, when you're setting things up, like what are the, I'm sure there are restrictions, like what are the rules and restrictions? That's a really great question. And it depends a lot this time on the judge and how much the judge wants you walking around. I am five foot one. I hate podiums. I hate them because I feel like a head. And so when I'm giving a talk in any other setting, I do not use a podium. I can't stand them.
00:05:45
Speaker
very often in courtrooms you have to stand behind the podium. So usually I migrate a little bit to the side because I really can't stand them. But what I tell folks is think about ways that you can engage with the jury that allow you to get from behind the podium. So one of those ways is to go a bit low-tech. And if you can combine using
00:06:08
Speaker
courtroom presentations
Ethical Considerations in Visual Presentation
00:06:10
Speaker
that involve monitors and screens to presentations that might involve, for example, an enlarged foam board where you can actually walk that across and show it to the jury, that's a great way to get out from behind the podium. And I've done that before in a trial where I had to be behind the podium except when I was showing one of those visuals. So that's kind of one way to beat the system in a sense.
00:06:34
Speaker
Interesting. Now, again, my experience with courtroom relative to TV and movies. So, when you are speaking, you're presenting information, are you often interrupted by
00:06:49
Speaker
opposing counsel by the judge. And so how do you, if you're, if you're making a case, if you're making an argument, you're building up this, this momentum, let's just say, as you're showing things, you know, how do you deal with these interruptions that are different, right? Then like the kind of talks that I give to a bunch of researchers, the interruptions are, I have a question about this, right?
00:07:08
Speaker
Oh, boy. Oh, my goodness. And they can't ask questions. The jury can, which is so frustrating, right? Because if they were allowed to, then you'd know exactly where you need to course correct or where their heads are and address it. So you raise two issues.
00:07:25
Speaker
One of them is the question issue. And I design my visuals knowing that that's one of the most unique aspects of presenting to a jury. In pretty much any other setting, even if people aren't raising their hand and asking questions, you can pause and try to elicit them. Or you can incorporate something interactive in the program that you're delivering to make sure that everyone's on the same page with you. And you cannot do that.
00:07:52
Speaker
in a jury setting. You cannot interact with the jury like that. Now, some judges will allow jurors to submit questions, which they don't show that on law and order, but the little behind the scenes is that usually what happens is the jury will have a question, they'll write it down, they'll give it to the foreperson, who will then give it to the judge,
Designing Clear and Impactful Visuals
00:08:10
Speaker
who will then, this is the part that's not on law and order, without the jury present, call counsel into the room, and then we will have a discussion with the court about whether we're going to answer it and how we're going to answer it.
00:08:22
Speaker
And then it ends up getting answered usually by the judge through some kind of, if not scripted, then something that the judge has sort of cleared with the lawyers. They don't all do that and sometimes that can lead to appeals if they say something that they shouldn't have. But the other issue that you raise is a distinction, I think, when you were talking about the interruptions between your opening statement and closing argument and then the trial itself.
00:08:47
Speaker
With opening statement and closing argument, that's what's much more akin to the presentations that you and I give to friendlier audiences. And there are typically not many, if any, interruptions. And in part, it's because there's a bit of a professional courtesy.
00:09:05
Speaker
It doesn't look very good to the jury if you're objecting during an opening statement and closing argument. It absolutely happens. It's happened to me. And then you just kind of have to roll with it and then get back on track. Where the interruptions come up more, of course, is where there are objections during testimony.
00:09:23
Speaker
And that may be where you have an expert witness on the stand. Like you, my husband's an economist, but he does it in the context of consulting a lot with lawyers and testifying as an expert witness. Fact witnesses, I'm often using visuals with.
00:09:39
Speaker
And if there are interruptions, they're the same interruptions that are happening throughout the trial with non-visual testimony. So the jury ends up getting used to
Tools and Skills for Lawyer Visuals
00:09:50
Speaker
them and you, again, have to kind of roll right back in with the presentation. Right. Do the things that you talked about in the book, and we should talk specifically about the book before we do that. So the things you talk about in the book, do they vary a lot by the type of law that someone's practicing?
00:10:09
Speaker
I would say they do to the extent that certain areas of law are more typically presented to juries, whereas other areas are more typically bench trials where the judge is making the decision. If you're in a legal field where there's more arbitration work, for example, then sometimes it might be a panel of judges and it might be in a setting that's not a courtroom.
00:10:34
Speaker
To that extent, just like you have to consider your audience for any presentation, you need to consider the differences between presenting to a jury versus a judge. Right. Let's talk about the book specifically. Sure. Do you want to walk us through the book? Because this, in some ways, it covers like the full gamut. It's not a book just on presentation skills. It's not a book just on data visits. It's sort of the whole communications about presenting in a trial.
Handling Complex Legal Data with Visualization
00:11:00
Speaker
That's right. And that was actually my goal with the book. It really was. I mean, I'm a lawyer. I try cases. I don't write books. And so really what I wanted to do is create a resource that at any stage a lawyer could look to it, turn to it, and have something helpful. And I should caveat it again.
00:11:20
Speaker
that since the book has come out, and I've been doing a lot more presentations, the audience is broadening. It really isn't just lawyers. It's certainly not just trial lawyers. But I've been talking with expert witnesses and professors, marketing executives, folks who sort of understand that professional presentations are a little different than
00:11:41
Speaker
advertising campaigns, and so it has provided a lot more breadth of information for those folks. But in terms of walking through the book, I view this as sort of four categories of information, and I divided the book into four parts. In the beginning, part one is really why all this matters. Why do we need to think about using visuals?
00:12:04
Speaker
are starting to recognize that we need it. But I think when you start looking at the statistics and the studies that have been done, both in the jury context and outside, and you see the dramatic impact that effective visuals have on communication,
00:12:19
Speaker
it sort of scares people into, oh my gosh, I really need to think about this. So the first part is why it matters. The second part are what I believe are some of the most common visual tools that are
Challenges and Final Thoughts
00:12:30
Speaker
used not just in the trial setting, but in any professional setting. So that's gonna encompass things like timelines and charts and graphs and photographs and illustrations and diagrams. And what I was trying to show here is the typical kind of visual tool
00:12:47
Speaker
what works and why it works and what doesn't work and why that doesn't work. And to help me do that,
00:12:55
Speaker
As I know you're well aware, I used help and I had four different graphic design firms who helped create some of these visuals. I wanted to show different styles, different approaches to the same concept. In some spots in the book, I actually have different design firms that have done a design for the same concept. Because I don't want people thinking that there's only one right way to do it. And that can become paralyzing.
00:13:22
Speaker
Then part three is graphic design. And as I was saying before, that came from folks saying to me as feedback to the live presentation, can you just show us how to do some of this stuff and what really matters? And so for a graphic designer, this is really, really basic. For the rest of us who weren't trained in graphic design, it's concepts like alignment and proximity, color and white space and contrast.
00:13:49
Speaker
that when i started learning about those concepts my visuals dramatically improved and so i passed those along and then the last part of the book is really strategy you know strategy for working with designers strategy for getting started strategy for using
00:14:06
Speaker
the graphic designs, presenting information in court and when to use high versus low tech. And then I, of course, I love talking about misleading visuals. So there's a whole chapter about misleading visuals and what can go horribly wrong. Well, you know, it's funny because as I was reading the book, I was thinking about one of my first presentations to a room of lawyers and talking about the
00:14:31
Speaker
hazards as it were of pie charts and saying look how you can't really figure out the exact value associated with this slice of this pie chart and the response was well sometimes we don't want the judge or the jury the opposing counsel to figure out what the exact value is and that was that was interesting sort of response
00:14:53
Speaker
I would say if you're designing or picking a design to mislead, that's a problem. If instead though the point that you're really trying to make is not the exact value but something more conceptual, I don't have any problem with that. And I would say that's one of the other areas that
00:15:11
Speaker
Lawyers need to design for more than they do. I think we all recognize the need for data visualization. It doesn't mean we're good at it, but we recognize the need for it. What not everybody really recognizes is the importance of visualizing concepts, what I call turning themes into pictures. It doesn't mean having a picture of two hands shaking. It's something that is not trite. It is unique. It is catered
00:15:42
Speaker
to the particular point that you're trying to make for that particular case.
00:15:54
Speaker
Well, I'm going to let you explain it because I was fascinated by this rule and this whole section in the book about, you know, specific things that I was at, I would have no experience with. So can you talk about that a little bit? Absolutely. I think Rule 403 is one of the most important distinctions between presenting in a trial setting and presenting anywhere else, really anywhere else.
00:16:15
Speaker
When you talk about photographs, people often say and they're right that photographs are attention-getting and appeal to emotion and have all of these advantages over other types of visuals.
00:16:26
Speaker
That's great, but there is a rule. It's Rule 403 and the Rules of Evidence. It's a federal rule, but states typically have either adopted it or have their own similar rule. And in a nutshell, what it says you can't do is introduce something into evidence in a trial or show something, even if it's not being introduced, if its prejudicial value outweighs its probative value.
00:16:52
Speaker
if it is unfairly prejudicial is another way that it's framed. And one of the ways that you would violate Rule 403 is if you are using a visual or piece of evidence that is by design trying to appeal to emotion.
00:17:07
Speaker
So something that would be a fantastic visual in another setting because of its appeal to emotion would likely be affirmatively excluded from a trial. It's interesting because there's a few examples that you write about. And the first few examples make me wonder a little bit because it's, you know, it's sort of not a stock photo, but sort of a standard photo you might get, but it has a picture of a person on it. And the advice that you've given here is, you know, instead of having the person standing
00:17:33
Speaker
you know the person's face you know you get a different picture where there's a person in the background but you don't may not see their face but then they're the ones that are a little more egregious where there's a there's a whole discussion here about like basically a mugshot where uh the you know the opposing council wrote the word guilty across it um so how do you i guess balance the the one where you write the word guilty seems obvious to me
00:17:55
Speaker
But the first case seems like there's a fine line there. Sure. And the point with respect to the faces is not so much Rule 403 prejudice as if it's distracting attention. Our eyes are naturally drawn to faces. And so if the image of the person is not really the point of the visual, if that's not really the main thing that you're talking about,
00:18:19
Speaker
then it can be affirmatively distracting if you've got a picture of someone's face next to what you're trying to talk about. So I make a few suggestions in the book as you point out for how to address that and basically not have the face be the focal point.
00:18:36
Speaker
Really, the rest of it is about the tone of the photograph. So if you have an image of, let's say in a family law case, and there's an image of a little boy on the screen that's pretty neutral, you'll probably get away with that. If it's an image of a little boy crouched in a corner crying, what is it that you're trying to say about that? That might be a perfectly appropriate
00:18:58
Speaker
visual for a marketing campaign or something like that, but in a trial setting, what is the point of that visual? And frankly, that's where I advise folks to always start thinking about their visuals. It's really two questions. What's the point? And what do you need on the slide or the enlarged board or whatever to convey that point? And then you design the slide around the point that you're trying to make. It's the same thing for data visualization as for thematic visualization.
00:19:26
Speaker
It's just really interesting. You had mentioned earlier about tools and so I'm curious about the tools that your colleagues use when they are making slides or visuals and also is there a movement in the legal field towards bigger and more data and how does that change
00:19:50
Speaker
how lawyers work with data, other skill sets that are needed in large firms that maybe weren't needed 10, 15 years ago.
00:19:58
Speaker
Well, in terms of the tools that we use, I certainly find that most lawyers that I work with are using PowerPoint keynote software like that. If you need to do something that requires a more sophisticated software in design or something, they're hiring. I do. I don't know how to use those programs. I'm good with PowerPoint. I'm not as good as a designer with PowerPoint. And it's taken a lot of time.
00:20:24
Speaker
Enjoy it and practice most do not and so to just start with powerpoint You know what's coming out of that right? Yes, the templates in the bullet absolutely and you know, maybe swirly templates a swirly templates exactly exactly hopefully not swirly text, but Right which you can do right? But you know, that's that's really the level that most of us are at and so I think that's why
00:20:50
Speaker
The really basic graphic design concepts that I cover in the book and that I teach in the seminars help a lot because when that's the level that you're starting from, you've got a lot of room to improve and you can improve very, very quickly with just a few tips. So that's really what I would say about what folks are using. I don't remember the second part. The second part was about changes in date.
00:21:15
Speaker
And now, maybe this isn't your particular area, but it's just curious to me because the graphs in the book, like you mentioned, there are timelines. They are flow diagrams. It's line charts and bar charts. But I wonder, and I'm sure there are legal cases where there's big data. Absolutely. Right. And so in those cases, I guess really the question is, in cases where they're using big data,
00:21:40
Speaker
Are there more interactive types of visualizations, not interactive like the jury clicks on or anything? Are lawyers trying to show these sort of bigger data sets, visualize these data sets in sort of different, more modern ways?
00:21:56
Speaker
I would say yes and no, typically in cases where there are complexities that involve data, and there's a lot of them, obviously, and I've been involved in a number of them. Usually, we end up having an expert witness who's involved, because you have to get that into evidence somehow, and it can't come in through the lawyer. The lawyer, right. There needs to be some witness, some way to get that before the jury that complies with the evidentiary rules.
00:22:23
Speaker
And so very, very frequently, it's an expert who is not only an expert in interpreting the data, but is often an expert in manipulating the data.
00:22:32
Speaker
So our regression analysis, there's going to be an economist who is testifying. And so what I think people are, including the economists, the consultants, what I think people are starting to realize is we need a more effective way of presenting that information and enter data visualization. And so usually for me, just because I'm a little bit further along than most of my lawyer colleagues, I will take a look at what the
00:23:00
Speaker
an economist has given me and i'll say that's great we obviously need that that's going to be in your report now we need to completely change how that's being presented to the jury right and so i'll brainstorm with the economist sometimes with my graphic consultant uh... you know from a trial graphics firm they've done tons of these they've done way more trials than lawyers have because they just are going from trial trial trial and so they may have seen an effective way of
00:23:26
Speaker
Visually demonstrating that same type of data to a jury in other cases and we'll put our heads together and figure out a better way to display it yeah that is really interesting and so when you have that conversation in your experience we've had that conversation with your experts do they push back.
00:23:44
Speaker
Do they get, like, when you're talking to people, do you just hand them a copy of your book and be like, here you go, read this first and now you understand why I want to do this other approach? The only pushback, which is usually very short-lived because then they quickly understand we're on the same page, is pushback to make sure that we're not misrepresenting the data. Sure, okay.
00:24:05
Speaker
I think folks who aren't as deep in the weeds on this topic will often say to me, yeah, I get it. The idea is to simplify. I never say that because sometimes complexity is the very theme that you want to convey.
00:24:20
Speaker
my goal is to clarify and so as soon as the expert recognizes that i'm not looking to simplify in any kind of misleading way and by the way in our case the fact that what you're displaying is complex is really important and i want the jury to understand that the complexity is inherent to.
00:24:39
Speaker
the process that you're describing or the nature of the data it's not complexity because we couldn't figure out a clear way to show it and so once they understand we're on the same page with that we have the same goal then we really are working toward the same thing ultimately.
00:24:55
Speaker
presenting the information in a way that's clear and understandable to the jury. Yeah. It's really interesting. I love seeing and hearing about different fields using visualizations. So thanks so much for coming on the show. And thanks so much for the book. I'll make sure that people know about it. So Carrie, thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been really interesting. Thanks, John. I really appreciate it. It's always fun to talk about this topic with somebody else who appreciates it just as much.
00:25:22
Speaker
All right. Well, thanks everybody for tuning into this week's episode. If you have comments or questions, please do let me know. I'll put a bunch of links to Carrie's work and to her book, Images of Impact, on the website. So until next week, this has been the Policy Vis Podcast. Thanks so much for listening.