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How to Tell Stories That Convert: Tips For All Brands
39 Plays6 months ago
In this episode, our host, Ashley Segura, chats with Suzanne Kagan, a Senior Marketing Leader. We Suzanne to spill all the beans on how storytelling shapes successful marketing strategies.
Suzanne shares practical techniques for testing and evaluating brand messaging, including budget-friendly ways to collect data and refine content. She offers insights on everything from creating effective one-liners to conducting messaging tests and adapting stories across different platforms. Learn how to use analytics to evaluate your storytelling strategy and make data-driven decisions.
Whether you're a creative professional looking to move into marketing or a seasoned marketer seeking fresh perspectives, this episode offers practical strategies for storytelling in marketing. Plus, get Suzanne's insider tips on using LinkedIn to understand your audience and stay current with industry trends.
Subscribe now for your bi-weekly dose of content strategy wisdom that's practical, actionable, and twice as likely to make you question everything you thought you knew about SEO and content marketing!
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Follow Suzanne Kagan:
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
If you've come from creative writing, you have a leg up because a lot of people aren't learning and don't understand how to get into the head of ah a character or of a persona. Use that and use those skills. But I would also say in the same way that imagine that you're writing dialogue. For people a lot of copy is that way.
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome back to Content in the Kitchen, where we gather around the kitchen and chat about content marketing. In today's episode, we're diving into the fascinating intersection between creative writing and marketing. I'm thrilled to have Suzanne Kagan with us, who brings 15 years of experience in both B2B and B2C marketing. Suzanne is the former VP of marketing at Anyword, a leading generative AI platform. But here's the twist. Suzanne and start out in marketing. With two degrees in creative writing, she's been able to leverage her storytelling skills to craft powerful results-driven marketing strategies. So in this episode, we're going to explore how creative writing skills like understanding your customer motivation and developing ICPs can make you a better marketer.
Suzanne's Journey from Writing to Marketing
00:01:05
Speaker
So whether you're a writer considering a pivot or a marketer looking to sharpen your storytelling, grab your favorite cup and let's talk about storytelling and marketing.
00:01:19
Speaker
So I'm going to start us off with the most popular question, and it's the first question of every episode that we do, is what is your go-to dish to cook in the kitchen? OK, so slightly embarrassing. I'm not a great cook. I have dabbled a lot. At some point, about 10 years ago, I was like, yes, I will try to cook. Become a great chef, but no, it's not meant to be. So my best one is actually keeping really simple dishes and just trying to do them to the best of my ability, which at this point is creating like a really great breakfast. So every week we have a nice brunch and we'll do really delicious omelet. They go cream cheese and laks and a nice salad. It's usually what you might go to. But it there is a way to perfect it perfected over time. So it will be tastier.
00:02:09
Speaker
Making a good omelet is challenging. like That is legitimately challenging to have the proper ingredients, have the proper egg thickness ratio and all of that. So kudos. There's a balancing act of like spices. like I put in like a sweet paprika. i put in yeah So there's ways to make it much tastier. And also, I find that the best trick I ever learned was to keep it on very low heat.
00:02:35
Speaker
Oh, yes. So it takes time. Yeah, definitely. And burnt eggs is just the literal worst. Yeah. Good call on that. Okay. Let's save into storytelling. I would love to kick things off with talking about your two degrees in creative writing. That's incredibly impressive that your background is in creative writing. So what sparked your interest in really your transition from creative writing to marketing?
Writing Techniques in Marketing
00:03:02
Speaker
When I was studying creative writing, we all have that kind of goal. Can I become a novelist one day or can I become a poet one day? And we know how realistic those goals are. So I also had a goal of just being self-sufficient. So I said, how can I take a writing degree, become self-sufficient? And I started out, I thought, okay, I'll go down the journalism route. And so I did a bunch of interviews in college. I did a magazine and I did a newspaper right after college and I was like,
00:03:31
Speaker
you know what, I'm not feeling this. It's less about writing and creative writing than is about sharing the story and sharing the news and sharing that with the public. So that was less of what I found interesting. And then at the time SEO was just starting to be created. Actually, this was 15 years ago, you would say SEO, nobody really knew what you were talking about. And and so I got a job because I had that degree in English writing, I could prove that I could write well. And so I just started writing and I found that there was a lot of connection between writing creatively and also writing for, or for marketing in general. It's a lot more about intention and the muse, like without the muse, but there's a lot about characters and understanding who is that character that you're writing for and what are their motivations.
Developing Customer Personas
00:04:21
Speaker
So that's very connected to personas and ICPs and there's a ah strong connection there. It was like a natural transition.
00:04:30
Speaker
Yeah, there there really is a strong connection there. And I like that you're pointing that out because usually when you think of ah SEO content writing, it's, okay, I'm just writing for the algorithms. I'm writing to rank. That's the goal of this. Whereas creative writing, it could be poetry. It could be that book that you're hoping to get published. Like it's very... different. they're They are looked at and perceived as very different. But that's true when it comes to SEO, you are still, and marketing in general, you're still creating a piece of content with a goal in mind and trying to attract a specific demographic. Just like when you're writing a book or poems, you're trying to attract people who appreciate poetry or people who are going to like sci-fi fiction or like whatever your niche is.
00:05:14
Speaker
Exactly. And it's it's just I think the benefit of coming from that background is that it's very easy to put yourself into the mindset of that character or that person. which At the end of the day, if you don't do that in marketing, you're not going to be able to create effective copy or content. So how do you come up with the the initial character? What does that process look like of actually creating a character persona for marketing?
00:05:41
Speaker
I think it's ah it's the same way that a lot of people do it is you start with kind of the, the form of graphic details. You want to understand who is this person? What is their job? Where do they live? Where do they congregate? How do they spend their free time? What are their pain points? What are their challenges? What are their motivations? And then where the marketing is, how does my product solve those challenges and pain points?
00:06:09
Speaker
And then how can I actually get them and motivate them to act? That's how you would think from that point. From a character when I was writing, for example, fiction, it was a little bit less intentional. It was more about how do they feel? How do they communicate? But still, I understood who are they? What's their age? What is their, where do they live? What do they care about? What are the challenges that they're facing now? Who are their friends? Who are their peers? And there are very easy ways to get into their mindset. So there's some exercise that you can do as a creative writer and actually apply that to marketing. So one of the things I remember doing back in college and also in my master's is we wouldn't write a letter from that character so that you actually embrace their tone of voice and it's shocking, you know, how much you start sounding like that character versus yourself. And then you can start feeling their frustrations, you can start really understanding their pain points, you can start really understanding what they care about.
00:07:06
Speaker
And you can do that same sort of thing. It's like when you're listening to customer calls or when you're you know speaking to one of your person in real life or doing interviews, that's when you can really understand that you're just hearing it and embracing that and understanding that.
Gathering Customer Insights without Sales Calls
00:07:22
Speaker
What if you don't have a sales team, though, because I've talked to so many brands, even large brands who are like, Okay, we don't have CS, we don't have customer success teams, we don't have sales teams, like we're bootstrapping it and and doing our best and trying to figure out, aside from the demographic details that Google Analytics will tell you, or like like Instagram's analytics or Mailchimp's analytics, the real analytics where you can understand how they are speaking, what their frustrations are. Like how do you go about trying to find that information when you don't have a customer that you can go directly to talk to or you don't have sales calls that you could go listen to? So there's a lot of ways actually nowadays that you can do that. So one of the things that I've done in the past, even when we did have sales calls is I would set up
00:08:10
Speaker
interviews with people, you just start reaching out to other peers and interviews. I remember my last company, we were targeting other marketers. So this made it a little bit easier. I could reach out to other marketing leaders, and we would say, Hey, I'd love to talk to you about this specific topic. Just get your advice. So you're an expert in this field. So it's one way to do it. The other is that you can be a voyeur.
00:08:30
Speaker
And second, on social media all the time. People are very public and they're very vocal. So yes yeah, you see it all the time. There's thought leaders for every type of meet. There's thought leaders in learning and development. There's thought leaders in marketing. There's thought leaders and of like CFOs. It doesn't matter if you're scared.
00:08:49
Speaker
to reach out to a CEO, there's plenty of CEOs who are speaking online and contributing their thoughts and sharing. So you can hear their challenges. The other is going into different Slack channels, different communities, or also reaching out to your peers in like second, third degree connections to try to connect you to others. Just don't be afraid because at the worst, someone's just gonna ignore your message or they won't respond. But if you don't ask, the answer is just gonna be no.
00:09:17
Speaker
Yeah, and this is something that you can totally do on LinkedIn and just send out, say, 20 connection requests with a message of what your intention are of like, hey, i'd I'd love to interview you to get some feedback about X, Y, and Z, or hear your experience as a CFO. And then if you send, say, 20, 30 connections out, you may only get two or three that actually connect and be like, yeah, let's jump on a call. But that's two or three. That's great. You can build a service from that.
00:09:45
Speaker
Exactly. And that's how I learned. I learned so much saying that we did it. You can also change your ICP too. And you can also convince others if who weren't necessarily in your ICP or weren't your persona before to actually first of all, be aware of your product during that time, because you're introducing yourself.
Defining and Testing Brand Story
00:10:01
Speaker
And you're essentially sometimes even demoing without intentionally demoing. So you're getting that brand awareness from them. But it just, it them to your product and off your mission as well. So I think that can be really helpful. But also you can find out that there's people who weren't your ICP and then you can almost convince them to become your ICP during that conversation because you're putting a face to that brand as well. They have a personal connection now.
00:10:28
Speaker
hu Yeah, and brands shouldn't be limited to just two or three ICPs. And that's usually, okay, that's a starting point. Let's create two or three personas and get really detailed about it. Let's give them an image, a face and a name and all of that. yeah But that changes over time. And as you develop your brand story and continue to tell that story and it evolves,
00:10:52
Speaker
For sure, your personas are definitely going to evolve with that. Have you seen with your extensive experience in marketing, marketing B2B and B2C companies, when brands make a pivot in that storytelling that it opens up this whole new demographic? Or is it usually just diving deeper and more targeted when they switch their brand story? i I've seen an experience both. So I've been in a bunch of companies that started out, for example, as PLG and they were B2C, they would have an e-commerce following, and then they would shift more to a B2B sales motion. And that's completely changed. They would go from, let's say, freelancers to enterprise, and then you're completely changing your demographic. But sometimes you start finding out that, for example, I remember in one company we were in,
00:11:42
Speaker
We were focused on marketing and sales professionals, and we just kept seeing more and more L and D learning and development professionals come in. And that's what the data was showing us. They were the one purchasing plans. They were the ones who are engaging. They were the ones who were strong advocates, and they were happy to talk about it and create case studies. And so we started making a massive shift towards that targeted audience. So that can happen often.
00:12:06
Speaker
So how do you, like taking a few steps back and you're either an established brand who has a story to tell or you're a new brand who's trying to figure out your story. How do you even begin that process to really understand and define what your brand story is, whether it's for the internal teams or public facing, like where do you begin to write that story?
00:12:32
Speaker
The combination depends on the stage of where the company is at. Often you can come in, there's some kind of idea. I've come into a lot of startups who I would say they They had some kind of idea of who their brand is. There's always the founder who came there and has a ah vision for that brand and what the tone is. And and you do those exercises of understanding if this company were a car, what kind would they be? Because they're like thought-provoking. It just gives you an idea. there's For some reason, they're Volkswagen Beetle.
00:13:04
Speaker
versus alexis or a Tesla and it tells you something very different and then you have to understand how the company right now at that current time is being perceived who is the audience that is st trickling in and who's coming in and then does that match the vision of the company so if it doesn't match the vision then it means that you need to completely change your brand story. And that's, it's not just, okay, we need a new website, we need a new logo. It's really what are the words that we're using? How are we communicating this message? Who are we? You try to understand what it is you want to accomplish? Who do you want to reach out? And what type, what are your revenue targets as well with that audience? Then you go from there, building it out. What is your one-liner? One of the questions I always ask when I first come into a company is like, if you had to describe this product in one sentence, how would you do it? And
00:13:55
Speaker
most companies have a very big challenge doing this. And so you'll send out like a survey to all the employees. And a lot of people can't do it. Or even how to what is your elevator pitch? How do you explain that? So you start developing that. And then you start trying to understand what is your unique value proposition? What's your UVP? Then you break it down into per person is okay, the here's your personas. Which one is also within those teams? Who is the influencer? who's the buyer who who's the user because often those can all be different. And then how do you communicate with them? What is the language that you're going to use? And then essentially create like a messaging matrix for all of them based on what are their challenges.
00:14:37
Speaker
And then how are you going to address that with your product and what's that language? And that is distributed then to all the different departments. So sales is also creating some collateral off of that. Customer success can use that type of language. Product understands and and they start using that type of language when they're creating UX copy. And then you're all speaking that same language and also influences obviously the design as well. So that's all shaping the brand and the story.
00:15:04
Speaker
not gonna lie, when you said the one-liner, put it all in one sentence, I got a little bit of anxiety. So I was like, okay, how would I describe content you have in one sentence? Because I feel like that's that's that above the fold homepage, you got your heading in your sub head, that is your opportunity. And that's that big one-liner opportunity. And we're constantly modifying that. And I found that taking that and putting it into chat GBT and being like, what do you think this company does based on this headline and subhead? And that response is always, Oh man, okay, so we're still not there yet. Or it's still not really clear what we're trying to say that we're offering. And then to have like actual clients or customers be like, give them a preview of it and be like, What do you get from this? What do you think that this means? And then their perspective is totally different, too. So it's definitely an evolving thing, being able to come up with what your company's one-liner is. But you're so right once you have that, everyone in the brand needs to be able to echo that message. Yeah. And it's really hard to do. It's really hard to communicate that messaging across the different departments. And the trick is, even with track CBT, it also depends, too, because
00:16:18
Speaker
chatcpt can be a great or any type of LLM can be a great partner when you're brainstorming. But you need to still give it the context so that it is using the right brain to to communicate with. So it's what I my trick for that is if I want to use it as like another marketing brand, I tell it like you're the world's best marketer. And we're going to have a conversation. Yeah, I inflate chatcpt a little bit.
00:16:46
Speaker
Because it's the same. If you told that to somebody, you're talking to another market, you are an amazing marketer. Let's have this conversation. Then they start thinking that way, too. Yeah. Otherwise, their brain there is all scattered across every single thing that they know and they know a little bit of everything.
00:17:01
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good point. And with these LLMs, that's the biggest point is to be able to train them. And so here's our brand's initial story. What kind of sales collateral would you do to support this initial story and and ask it to be that best marketer in the world and go from there?
00:17:19
Speaker
Exactly. And it it does. It really helps. It's good. But then you need to anything you get from chat CPT or as it any analyst, then you need to validate
Feedback and Content Adaptation Strategies
00:17:28
Speaker
it. So then you need to start reaching out to these audiences and say, does this messaging resonate with you? Because I started having those conversations when I'll go into a company, and we'll develop the messaging, or we'll have a new product feature release. And before it goes live, I'll reach out to a prospective buyer, somebody else.
00:17:45
Speaker
or a friend who has that type of job title. And I'll be like, okay, what does this sound like to you? And they'll give you need to do it with people who you really trust and who won't sugarcoat. And they'll just say, I don't get it, or I do, or that I don't think this is for me, but I think it's for that audience. And then it opens your mind.
00:18:04
Speaker
So aside from directly asking your audience, how are you gathering data to support a story or to say that, hey, this story is successful that we're trying to put out into the world?
00:18:16
Speaker
So there's a lot of different ways you can do it. I always test with ads first because it's really easy and quick. So I'll create, if I want to test out new messaging, I might test it out. If my audience is on LinkedIn, I might test it on LinkedIn. If it's on Facebook, I'll do it on Facebook or Instagram, TikTok. That's one way. I might test it out with a landing page, especially too. So you want to also connect that. So landing pages are a little bit easier. You can do it for one campaign. You can set the specific budget that you want.
00:18:44
Speaker
to have for that campaign and see is it resonating, is it working? Yeah. How much are you spending to do something like that? Because I could already hear the brands who are like, we have small budgets, or our budgets are barely getting through as they are. There's always a tiny bit of budget. It doesn't have to be a lot, really. But I do believe that you should, when you do create your marketing plan, you should set aside a small percentage for those types of tests.
00:19:13
Speaker
There's other different types of tools that you can use. For example, at Anywhere, one of the tools that we use, it was like a website optimization. So what it would actually do is you could put in four different messages, and it would alternate them. So I could do it for a period of, let's say, a week, and it would alternate different messaging. And then I could see which one actually drove marker version. That's amazing. That's like MailChamper and email providers A.B. testing subject lines or send out time.
00:19:40
Speaker
Exactly. The difference with this one is that you could do, I could test out four different headlines at a time. And often if you're coming from a, if you've been creating copy for a long time, you have a pretty good idea. There's some type of intuition. You have an idea what will work and then you always are trying to back it up by data. So this is a way to prove your hunches as well or disprove it.
00:20:02
Speaker
or disprove it. Exactly. So especially with a creative writing background, like youre you have to have a little bit of a thick skin to consistently get feedback. And especially in creative writing, people don't always see your vision. And with branding and marketing, storytelling and that, like your consumers are not always seeing your vision, let alone your head of marketing or your higher ups, they aren't always seeing it. so what do you do in those instances to where okay the data's come back it's not resonating people are not getting the message of this new piece of content are you going through and like just deleting things are you updating content what's usually your protocol once you get any kind of feedback that this isn't working. I always get to understand why something's not working.
00:20:53
Speaker
Because there's a lot of reasons why something might not work. It could actually be the right message, but it might not be the right time. It might have been the right user. It might not have been the right part of the funnel. i I find a lot of times that data can be very misleading.
00:21:10
Speaker
Like it's essential, but it can be very misleading. So you have to really understand what it is telling you because I see all the time people tend to misinterpret data. Like they'll say this campaign is working because people clicked here, but then you go, okay, but how many conversions did you actually get from that? Or did it end up having a conversions later? Or for example.
00:21:28
Speaker
attribute, your initial attribution will tell you like, Oh, it's not working because we have so much. So we have so much coming from Google or from which, and then you find out later when you actually do self-report attribution that no, actually they sell you on a podcast, something to work versus it. It's just, you have to continue to ask questions, not to be hostile. Like you can give it up.
00:21:51
Speaker
But you don't have to. But you should understand what does it mean that it didn't work? What was the whole context of that? And sometimes we find out that it actually was working. It was just the wrong test. So basically come up with a story or identify the story that the data is telling of why it may have not worked and yeah what you need to change. Exactly.
00:22:14
Speaker
And how often are you going through and looking at your analytics, like now talking about just content in general and seeing what's working, what's not working? How often are you going in and checking your analytics to identify that? So you have to do it at least on a weekly basis. It depends like I, as a marketing leader, when I have a team, I do expect someone to be checking that sometimes even on a daily basis, depending on what, what they're working, if it's a landing page and we're spending budget on it, then yeah, I want to understand how that's working and if there's any problems because sometimes something's not working. And let's say your messaging isn't working, but for some reason the CTA button wasn't working or it went to the wrong place. Often there can be an ops issue instead of content issue.
00:23:00
Speaker
So it's always good to check, whoever's responsible or owning that piece of content, it's their job to then check, is this working? Is this not? Make sure. And then if they're seeing, for example, especially for PPC or Facebook, if they're saying, OK, I just spent $1,000 on this campaign, and we didn't see the results, then you make optimizations quickly. And then that also involves the content, because everything is content. You're using content to support all the initiatives.
00:23:30
Speaker
Yeah. Are you basically checking analytics to identify what went wrong, making those changes in real time, giving it more time depending upon the campaign type, and then utilizing that data for future content? Or it's really just dependent upon the campaign? So any campaign that you do, you still need to have a postmortem and i understand what worked or what didn't work. And then you can learn from there. If you've never done it before, then this campaign is your benchmark.
00:23:59
Speaker
Yeah. So it's helping you understand what even, what does it mean works or not works. Then you go from there, but it also depends on what the offer is or what change or if it's the same demographic or if your product has evolved or you're highlighting a specific
Tips for Creatives Entering Marketing
00:24:15
Speaker
feature. So it's so dependent.
00:24:19
Speaker
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Do you have any advice for anyone who is coming from a creative background, whether it's writing or arts, and wants to get into marketing? Definitely use what you've learned. If you've come from creative writing, you have a leg up because a lot of people aren't learning and don't understand how to get into the head of ah a character or of a persona. Use that and use those skills. But I would also say in the same way that imagine that you're writing dialogue for people love copies that way. So one of the tricks I do when I was writing copy or content is I would always read it aloud. And if it sounded natural, that was just a ah really easy way to gauge if this is good content, bad content, also take away the fact of quality writing for marketing is very different from quality writing for fiction or quality of writing for creative nonfiction.
00:25:13
Speaker
So it's more about what actually works and what's going to evoke and help somebody understand that you have a solution for them. So I think there you can use the idea of motivations and playing with emotions, not playing, but evoking emotion. And so that's a huge benefit. The difference here is that with marketing, everything is very intentional and goal oriented.
00:25:37
Speaker
So you have a goal in mind, you have to keep in mind, you just need to make a mind shift that this isn't about your feelings or having a message you want to get out to the world. That's not what this is about. It's about understanding who your audience is, what is the goal? Are you creating this content for brand awareness? Are you creating this content for acquisition, conversion? And if you have that in mind, if you understand what is the action you want them to take, help them lead to that action. And also what is the channel? Because every channel requires a different type of
Maintaining Brand Personality and Engaging with Trends
00:26:08
Speaker
content. So just become an expert in understanding what is the type of content that's popular there. And also follow brands where you feel like they they have good engagement.
00:26:18
Speaker
they there's certain things that they're doing. Yeah, that's honestly fantastic advice for even marketers who are in marketing who need a small bit of a wake up call. oh This is this is how you really do it. This is how you really create content that connects with your ICPs. This is how you create ICPs. And this is the core of traditional marketing and what makes a great marketer from a marketer who is not a fly on the wall and who isn't listening, who isn't on all these different platforms and identifying what the trends are, how to shape that content and tell that story on Instagram versus telling it on your blog versus on your webinar series. All very different versions of the same story.
00:27:02
Speaker
Exactly. It should all sound familiar. It should all sound like your brand. You should have an identity and a personality to your brand. But I think one of the things is that you have to remember, ah or someone who will come in is that if you're working with one company, that is always going to be that personality, unless they evolve to something else. But that personality isn't really going to change. That tone of voice isn't really going to change unless there's like a complete rebrand.
00:27:32
Speaker
or they're very early stages. So you can just become an expert in that very quickly. And I've seen some companies that they really, some of their strongest marketing power was really just amazing content with an amazing personality that just touched an audience. And then that's how your audience can fall in love with your product and your brand.
00:27:54
Speaker
Yeah, it reminds me of the early Wendy's Twitter days and back when Chipotle had a funny voice on there and people would literally connect with these brands specifically because they thought it was funny. They appreciated the humor and so they would choose those vendors versus other vendors and it's that's really when they're you're in a really competitive niche. It can be as small as that's why they're choosing you over the competitor.
00:28:19
Speaker
It's true. If they feel a personal connection, to they will just choose it. if they People choose products that are likable. Yes. Yes. Yeah, they really do. and As we wrap up, I definitely want to know, what is your current secret sauce right now? What's that strategy, tip, maybe a recent book that you read or webinar series? What's your current secret sauce? My current secret sauce. It's actually pretty tricky. i think One of the things that I just do all the time is I always do the check in on LinkedIn. So I have just found there's so many great peers out there who are just sharing their advice all the time. So my
00:29:01
Speaker
secret sauce, which I don't know what the secret is. So basically, I read through different LinkedIn posts from different thought leaders. And a thought leader doesn't need to be somebody who has 100,000 followers. When I was when I was working for a company that had a very niche tech audience, it would sometimes be like a data scientist who had like 3000 followers. But they were, this helped me understand that audience so well, because I could understand What were they talking about? What are their pain points? What are the topics? What do they care about? How do people engage? What are the types of images they're posting in their content? So you can learn so much just from even micro influencers on LinkedIn. And then what I do is I just save the post and then I have a reference for later to look back on.
00:29:46
Speaker
Yeah, saving the post is key because there's so many times I'll try and find it in my feed. Like where was that post from 3D? You can't find it. No, it's gone forever. Thank you so much for being on the show and for everything you shared today. This has been so good. It it was really great. Thank you for having me.