Transcript
John Holt: Hello and welcome to the Media Mega Rumble, the podcast where films, TV, video games and characters enter the squared circle and battle out to see who will emerge victorious.
John Holt: My name is John Holt and with me is novelist, former writer for WhatCulture, James Brigginshaw. How are you?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I'm very well, sir. How how do you do?
John Holt: I do very well. I am now officially a member of the Pink Pony Club. Have you heard that song?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: i don't think I've heard that song, no. Which is...
John Holt: check Chapel Rhone, Pink Pony Club, is currently the number one single in the UK.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: okay
John Holt: And it's been re-released. it was It came out pre-COVID and was ignored.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: o
John Holt: But tell you what, it is perfect pop song. I had written off modern music. I heard this and now I can't stop listening to it. I think it's freaking amazing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, wow. And is that because there's a pony in it, metaphorical or otherwise?
John Holt: There isn't, but it's about someone who's a little bit of an outcast and they're going to dance at the Pink Pony Club and everyone says no But they don't care because all they want to do is dance.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No, I can't relate, mate. No.
John Holt: Oh, it is the anthem of our times.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: i can I can never think of one moment where I was left out and then decided to do something weird.
John Holt: Oh, you got to listen to it.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay. All right. if If, yeah, if you recommend it, then fine.
John Holt: Inescapable. The vibe is inescapable.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: It
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It will literally, it will haunt your dreams.
John Holt: will change your life.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Of course it will.
John Holt: So anyway, on this episode, we are looking at the four, four attempts at rebooting the terminif for franchise of Terminator after Terminator 2.
John Holt: And what we're trying to figure out, dear listener, is which of these timelines would we have liked to see continue into further sequels? So the Terminator, written and directed by James Cameron, was released in 1984 and did okay at the cinema.
John Holt: but then was huge on video and on cable, etc. It was kind of the indie breakout of the time.
John Holt: Terminator 2 Judgment Day was released in 1991 and was at the time the most expensive movie ever made. It pushed visual effects forward, changed movies forever, and made $517 million dollars worldwide, which adjusted for inflation, I think is like literally a trillion dollars, something like
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's just America's GDP.
John Holt: There's just no number. You can't even count that high. Now, the story, the mythology, or whatever you want to call it, was categorically ended in Terminator 2.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: James Cameron said so as well. on So, yeah.
John Holt: He said so. Changed his tune later, but more on that in a bit.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: you
John Holt: But they essentially prevented Skynet from happening.
John Holt: But did they?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: Because Hollywood said no. And we got Terminator 3 in 2003.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm-hmm.
John Holt: It made $433 million. So Hollywood then second guesses itself. And you get three more reboot attempts in less than 20 years.
John Holt: I mean, when you put it down on paper. Because it goes from 2003 to 2019. it's not 20 years. So that means there's one reboot. twenty years so that means there's one reboot Every, what, 3.75 years?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, I suppose when you put it like that, I don't know if...
John Holt: mean that's not
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, I don't know it's just been so many Hollywood reboots of films throughout the years that it's almost gone under the radar just how many they've had. Like, when you kind of said that, it kind of washed over me.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: was like, wow, yeah, like, it really... Like, they really just will not stop flogging this dead horse, like, more than any other...
John Holt: They really won't.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
John Holt: And it's like an absolute lesson of what is wrong with the film industry, isn't it, really?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, it is.
John Holt: When you think about it, because like this is a fascinating case study.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: and And we're going to get into the why. But you know what's really weird? I just realized this the other day.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: And I just quickly like added it into the notes here this afternoon. Is... There's like a big plot device or plot hole in Terminator 2 that they never brought back in any sequels.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, okay.
John Holt: So you know the end of Terminator 2, they're like, right, f throw the arm into the molten steel throw the chip into the molten steel the t-1000 has gone down into the molten steel and the t-800 lowers himself into the molten steel right so that ends skynet okay because they don't have that future tech except for there's another arm because during arnie's battle with the t-1000 he gets his arm trapped in this in a cog that goes around and he tears himself free
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes. Bye bye, Scott.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes.
John Holt: He never goes back and gets that arm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, shit.
John Holt: But they've never brought that up.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, yeah, that's a good point.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Maybe Sarah Connor just found at the end and then put it in a recycling bin.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And they were like, they were like, this is for cardboard only, Sarah.
John Holt: who
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Take it back. Yeah.
John Holt: It's a deleted scene where just as he's going like that with the thumbs up, Sarah goes, no, you idiot.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
John Holt: Where's your other arm?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: but ah
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And he like comes out of the magma and he's like, it's in the car. And he's like, I mean, so with this franchise, ah I think,
John Holt: Yeah. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I can't remember when I told you this, but I think I was having one of these semi-rants about films or whatever. And I said there are two things that I can't be doing with in films generally because it means I shat the bed.
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: One of them is clones, which it's a bit, okay, there's an element of it. But the time travel thing, I think this franchise is why I hate time travel as a literatureate literary device, a storytelling device.
John Holt: yeah
John Holt: Really? Yeah. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, because there's a couple of examples we'll get into, but it really fucking trips over it its own. I mean, we criticise Marvel and stuff for having really convoluted timelines, but like, holy Jesus, this is terrible.
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And trying to keep up with what what is canon and what isn't canon is another massive bugbear that, again, we'll get into. But, oh boy, it's it's just...
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: the trying to work out what is canon in the Terminator universe and what isn't and what is something that could happen, what is something that has happened but in another universe.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean, it just... well And I think, I guess because we won't speak as much about these, but I feel like the first two films, aside from the kind of plot point you brought up, are like fairly-ish secure in terms of the time travel thing.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like it's very much...
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: You know, they keep it simple. They they kind of don't try and do more with it, whereas, yeah, I mean, level we'll get into it, but the the reboots definitely definitely try and play off the whole time travel stuff a lot more.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and Oh, boy. Anyway, yeah.
John Holt: I mean, it wasn't this franchise that put me off time travel. I think I didn't mind that whole concept until that series Heroes. remember Heroes?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, yes. Because there was that dude who the Japanese dude who could, like, Go back in time or something? Yeah.
John Holt: I think it was him, yeah. But then it was suddenly like there was future selves and present selves and and it got so complicated and it kind of just ruined it.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: oh Yeah. yeah.
John Holt: And it was sort of, I don't know, I felt the first season was so strong. That they really didn't need to introduce that. And I feel like it's similar sort of thing with the X-Men in a way.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
John Holt: like I feel like that got really complicated. And think about like things like...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: oh yeah
John Holt: I mean, multiverses isn't really the same, I guess.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah i mean i i liked days of future past but then it it did get a bit yeah i can't remember which one it was but one one of the later ones yeah it was all just lots of young self meeting older self and uh i don't know it's nice as a gimmick maybe every once in a while but it just became the
John Holt: Hmm.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: the the norm for Hollywood and it's definitely ah there's definitely a few of these reboots that are kind of set in and around the, I guess, what I'd ironically called the darkest timeline of Hollywood where it is just lots of reboots, legacy sequels kind of things where and it's neverous no it's never to end.
John Holt: It's never going to end.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's franchises never get that. Poor John Connor will never rest like he's...
John Holt: Never. So let's get to round So here Round Terminator 3 from 2003 which made $433 million versus
John Holt: turbinator three from two thousand three which made four hundred and thirty three million versus Terminator Salvation from which made three hundred and seventy one million worldwide now i know i've said this there's four reboots but you could look at it That Terminator is Salvation.
John Holt: Is actually a direct sequel. More or less. two termin To 3. Just with a completely different.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. Yeah.
John Holt: Creative team because. Terminator 3 ends. In a certain way. And Terminator Salvation. Is set in the future war.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: And if you study.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: The credits. ah Bryce Dallas Howard's character. In Terminator Salvation. Who's barely in it. is playing the character that Claire Danes played in Terminator 3.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Ah, interesting.
John Holt: But they're so wildly different in terms of tone and and that kind of thing and actor that it does feel like they're both separate reboots almost.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: So that's why they're included here.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That's interesting. Yeah, I would have... Again, I feel like this is... Some would say this this a podcast of Revelations, I do... Yeah, I guess I never thought about Salvation being a direct sequel.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I guess it it it it makes sense now you mention it.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I just... Because I just kind of had it as... i know it's kind of a reboot, but thought it was more of a soft reboot. in I kind of look at it as like, oh, it's like a John Connor story, and it's like, oh, okay, this is...
John Holt: Mm. Mm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: You know, it's it's a classic thing. Like, we saw glimpses in... Terminator 1 and Terminator 2, especially where you see the the the the war ah the war against machines. And it's really cool because you just see little glimpses of it. So your imagination does a lot of the heavy lifting. But I kind of, yeah, it kind of almost felt like it was just like, although John Connor's like a main character, it's kind of like almost like a side story. It didn't feel...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: you know, and like Sam Worthington and was in there and a lot of study about like what made him human stuff. say So yeah, it kind of felt ah not as relevant to the, to the main timeline.
John Holt: No.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah
John Holt: And the thing is, with with Salvation, right, so you know you you catch the glimpses of a future war in Terminator 1 and 2, and it seems absolutely nightmarish, doesn't it?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yes. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes.
John Holt: Like, it's a horror show.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like horrific.
John Holt: There's skeletons and skulls everywhere. It's always nighttime and that kind of thing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yeah
John Holt: Whereas, like, Terminator Salvation, okay, it's bad, but it's not that bad.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah. It's not horrendous.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean, it's it's largely bloodless, to be fair.
John Holt: no this
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like, it's not, a you know.
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, it's just very, like, grimy. It's very dirty, but it's not a necessarily... ah Yeah, like you like one of the best scenes in...
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: um the first Terminator is when the T-800s, when they like go in the base and they've got this human, but they've got like the glowing eyes and stuff.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And like people screaming or ah like, it's horrific because, and that's why I love the first one so much.
John Holt: Yeah, that bit's horrifying.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I feel like the second one is still does this well, but the others definitely don't. It's, it's a sheer like abject horror of like what a Terminator is.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And it's, it's those first two films kind of, um, kind of horrifying. And what, what I think Salvation does, which I ah really didn't like was, um, it then does this thing where a lot of other franchises do this, like Warhammer does this all the time where this weird, like power creep in terms of, it's not, it's not clear how, like the strength of the Terminator, especially in Salvation, I feel like varies, you know, they, they,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: humans with technology in the past of like, you know, struggle to fight one or two of them. But then in Salvation, like Christian Bale is just like, you know, just killing them as like fodder, basically, for the most part.
John Holt: well
John Holt: it's interesting you bring that up because yeah like they're like really hard to kill right in Terminator 1 and in Terminator 2 like the T-1000 is more or less unstoppable but Arnie is still fairly unstoppable himself the first time you see Christian Bale in Terminator Salvation he steps out of a
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: a helicopter and just caps a terminator in the head and he's done
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yeah. And the Terminator's, like, fucking, like, ten foot whatever, like, absolutely built like a brick shithouse. And, yeah, it just kind of... Yeah, and that kind of, yeah I guess dilutes the...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Dilutes the danger. And, yeah, I mean...
John Holt: yeah is a strange thing
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Salvate... Yeah, and Salvation... I feel like Salvation tried to make it kind of like a little bit more existential. Like, so you Sam Worthington's character, I forget what he's called because he's not Kyle Reese's.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He's like some other dude.
John Holt: No.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and But like, it tries to get a bit more existential about like, oh, like who he is. Like he's kind of always believed he's a human and things like that. But yeah, I, it's definitely a, a, a bold direction. I mean, I think,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: If you're comparing the two, I think Terminator 3 definitely feels like a more diluted version of Terminator 2. I think, you know, and that was the first seven Terminator sequel that was 12 or a PG-13, whatever it's called these days. So it definitely felt like a you know, like like the wwe WWE kind of, as it, you know, went from the Attitude Era, then it went into like this kind of... and censorship era era where nobody could swear and and they didn't have any blood and things.
John Holt: Yeah, it's strange, isn't it? like first two movies, I'm pretty sure the first one's an 18, the second one was a 15 cinema.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes. Yeah.
John Holt: And then, yeah, it's like 12A all the way until but they sort figure out that that wasn't the way to go very recently.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: But it's weird. Like, Terminator 3, like, at the time when it came out, I was really into it. Like, I really liked it.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes. Me too. Yeah.
John Holt: And I think a lot of it, It's because it wasn't the disaster I thought it was going to be.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, true.
John Holt: Because a lot about it works. I think Nick Stahl is really good.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, agreed.
John Holt: I think Claire Danes is okay. Arnie looks slightly older, but not overly. um i quite like the idea that they just delayed Judgment Day.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes, that was my my main takeaway, was that bit.
John Holt: and Yeah, the sort of callbacks and member berries where you see like in the military factory, there's like the early versions of every kind of sort of flying like tank like machine that you see in the future war in the first two is sort of there in his prototype phase. I quite like that.
John Holt: The one thing I don't like about it on retrospect, watching it very recently, I feel like the female Terminator is very, very weak.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: Like, I feel like it's pulled out of something like a Species sequel rather than a Terminator sequel.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes. yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. And there's bits like I mean, it was kind of meant as as as a comedic element, but where where she like literally enlarges her own breasts, I mean, that, like...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: You look back and it's just like, oh, it's a bit cringe.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: like
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and But they definitely... So Terminator 3 especially, they definitely had this thing where, you know, T-800 with Arnie, it was like he's... yeah um you know, a man for intense purposes, but with a kind of endoskeleton, whatever, then it kind of gets a grade to C1000. It's like he's liquid metal. He can pass through rules. He do this, that, and the other.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And then I felt like in every film, pretty much since I struggled to really work out what is a logical progression from, from Robert Patrick's C1000 to the point where, I mean, they I think it was Terminator...
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah Dark Fate where they just bring back the... the Maybe it was Genesis. oh We'll get on to that in a minute. But they bring back the T-1000 because it's almost like, oh, well, it's a classic, but like there's the there's not I just feel that like there's not really been a progression on...
John Holt: yeah
John Holt: Yeah. Which goes back to the thing that Terminator 2 was the end of the franchise.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes, it was.
John Holt: There was nothing left to do.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It was. Yeah.
John Holt: But it's it's interesting because like that that female Terminator, it's kind of got a metal skeleton, but then it's got the skin of the T-1000.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: Hmm. No. No.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yeah. it's It feels a bit inconsistent. Like, I'm not really sure. Like, T-1000, T-800, like, you very much understood what its strengths and weaknesses were, whereas she didn't really she didn't really have any, I don't think.
John Holt: no
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: like Or what it wasn't clear. Like, she was dangerous because she was a Terminator, but it wasn't like, oh, in this particular scenario, she'll be whatever.
John Holt: no
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I think she could, like, fucking swivel her head when her neck was broken or whatever. Yeah, it's
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But yeah, she...
John Holt: And that actress went on to a career in Uwe Boll movies and never worked again.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, well. Was she in a House of the Dead?
John Holt: No, she's in... Oh, what's it called?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: think I've only seen a couple of Uwe Boll films, unfortunately.
John Holt: I can't remember now. It's either... I can visualise it in my mind but I can't think what it's called. It's literally like Blood Rain or Blood Rain 2 or one of these things on a very minor sort of medium-sized hit PS2 era game that they thought, oh, we'll make a movie of that.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oof.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: blood rain the quickening yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah yes
John Holt: And we know just the guy who's
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yes
John Holt: But Terminator 3, I mean, it's got a good level carnage. I love that like early chase where that massive, I think it's like a crane carrying truck or something, flips over and just takes out like half a block with it and that kind of thing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, I feel like the Terminator franchise, like having kind of recently kind of gone through all of them, it's like, I think pretty much all of them, except for maybe Salvation, has like a really cool like car chase at some point.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And it's, it really is up there with, oh, I don't want to say it, but like the Fast and the Furious films, if you're going for pure like stunt action carnage.
John Holt: Oh, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and I mean, I think the ah kind of,
John Holt: We should probably do an episode about best car chases because ah think my favorite one of all time is Bad Boys 2.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah Enough said.
John Holt: came out the same summer as Terminator 3. It was the summer of the car chase because you had the Matrix reloaded as well. And i have to say, I think in Bad Boys 2, is just the level of carnage in that car chase perpetrated by two police officers.
John Holt: is like insane.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah definitely would have lost their jobs afterwards. Yeah. Well, I like and one of my favourite ones. I think it was Ronin. Sorry, Robert De Niro.
John Holt: Oh yeah, that's great one.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: at And it's great. And it's also like really realistic. And they're all like driving like Toyota Corollas and stuff, which I just I love that shit.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like very.
John Holt: Yeah. Born Ultimatum, that's also a good one.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The Bournemouth. Is that the yeah the Paris one?
John Holt: No, I think it's the final car chase in New York in the third one.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, OK. Yeah.
John Holt: I feel like that was banger.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Is that the one with Simon Pegg in it?
John Holt: Anyway.
John Holt: um He's not in the Bourne films. He's in Mission Impossible.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No, who am I thinking of? I'm thinking of someone completely different. i was going say Paddy Considine, but i feel like I feel like I'm going down a path that could I cannot recover from.
John Holt: he Yeah, let's... let's let's ah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Let's ah swiftly, swiftly move on.
John Holt: Swiftly moving on. but I love the ending of Terminator 3. I think that was a really good ending.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes. I'm going to throw um going to throw it out there. It's probably my favourite ending of all of them, maybe.
John Holt: Yeah, it's hard to argue with that because it's such a shock where they're like, right, let's go down here and it's like, oh, we were never going to stop it.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Not... Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. like we
John Holt: It was just get us here for the next bit sort of thing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. yeah it was It was literally just to save the leaders of the resistance. It's like the world was...
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: going to be fucked and was going to end in 1997. But yeah, we just needed to to keep you safe, which I think is great. There's a massive like rug pull on all the law that we've been led to understand, but, but it just makes sense as well. You can't argue with it. Like you just like, yeah, I guess.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And it, you know, that their whole, their whole thing is a whole, you know, is fate, you know, is, is our future predetermined or can we influence it?
John Holt: Absolutely.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I think it, it really does stir into a, steer it in a way where it's like, yeah, like life is is probably just going to end. It just, and it's just a matter of of when. And I think in in the later sequels, there is definitely a thing where It feels like no matter what universe it's set in, like it we're just postponing whatever we do, we're just postponing the inevitable.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And whether that's the takeaway for the Super Bowls, I don't know. But ah yeah, um ah I like the setup.
John Holt: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean, I do think, for me, Terminator 3 starts to get a bit creaky with its time travel. So one of the one of the moments, if I remember correctly, is basically...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Let's see if I remember this. So the Terminator, ah played by Arnie, kills John in the future. And then Kate Brewster, played by Claire Danes, in the future reprograms that Terminator to send it back in time to save her old self and John.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And... and Exactly.
John Holt: I don't know.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I was just like, what? Because I was looking and i was like, oh, what are some like great quotes and stuff? And then i was I was kind of looking. I think it's one of the like monologues that Arnie gives when he's a in the car.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And yeah, he was like, oh, I kill you in the the future. And then Claire Danes, it's just wild. And stuff like that, it just like, I just don't understand it.
John Holt: Oh, we get worse than that soon.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I've...
John Holt: Believe me.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, yeah, to be fair. And I mean...
John Holt: But up yeah, term so that's like Terminator Salvation. I mean, did you see this when it came out?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes, I saw it like the weekend it came out in cinemas because I was at uni when this this came out.
John Holt: Okay. And like, were you like, this is going to be a massive partnership ship because it's Mukji, but someone who calls themselves Mukji directing it, who who made those Charlie's Angels movies?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: sorry Yeah, when I looked at it, i was like, is this guy actually called McG? And I think he might be. and Yeah, I think there was an expectation that like... I don't think I'd kind of got into sequel fatigue then. I feel like in the early noughties, that was kind of start or I guess it was late noughties.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: We were starting to get a bit more of this kind of resurrecting franchises and stuff. So I was kind of quite innocent going into it.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But I was bitterly, bitterly, bitterly disappointed by it. Having exactly the same as you.
John Holt: Really?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes, because loved T1. It scared the shit out me until I was basically in my 20s. T2's great. T3, exactly the same as you. I liked it despite itself, like because I'm like, oh, it it could have been a dumpster fire.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And then as soon as I heard, oh they're setting it in ah in the future with The War Against the Machines, I was like, banging. It's like favourite part of and of or the the all the films. And then it it just it just crushed me. Like,
John Holt: Really? See, I saw it first time, and I was kind of a bit like like, not crushed, but I was like, okay, that wasn't that bad, but it wasn't really great.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So that
John Holt: And I've watched it a few times since. And I feel like every time I i watch it now, i like it a little bit more.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: really, oh wow.
John Holt: And I feel like the world is kind of on my side with this one as well. A lot of people quite like Terminator Salvation now. It's not perfect at all.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, Sam Worthington.
John Holt: But, well, this is the thing. Because like Christian Bale is great. um
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, okay.
John Holt: he's He's a better John Connor than Nick Stahl in that world.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh.
John Holt: Right.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: but Put that on the poster, but yeah, I agree.
John Holt: Bryce Dallas Howard. It's something about Claire Danes I've never liked. I don't know why.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, I'm with you on that one. I'm not i'm not a huge fan of Claire Dain, to be fair.
John Holt: No. So so Bryce Dallas Howard is more... He's a warmer presence, let's say.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah Yes, yes, agree.
John Holt: um But Sam Worthington... and
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, Lord. I mean, he is at this point the Herald of the Apocalypse when it comes to, like, this film will fucking tank. Avatar aside, obviously. ah
John Holt: It's that strange year where, i mean, more on this in a film that we're going to talk about in a bit, but it's that period in the noughties, right, which is is really a strange period for Hollywood in that they're like, right, we we know you don't know him, but we've decided this guy is the next big thing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yes yeah yeah yeah did it with aaron taylor johnson with kick ass all of it
John Holt: And it
John Holt: but Well, it's is so weird. Like with Sam Worthington, I think he'd done like one, like home and away. And like one Australian movie about a giant crocodile.
John Holt: And that was it. He was in, he's like, he's in Terminator, he's Clash of the Titans, he's Avatar.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: like this is a guy
John Holt: And it's like, why? What did he do?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: What do people see in him?
John Holt: like
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like, he just brings nothing. He brings...
John Holt: Yeah, like col Colin Farrell, right?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: They did the same with Colin Farrell around this time. I got nothing but respect for that. And I know where that came from. Because if you watch Tigerland, you're like, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Tigeland's great.
John Holt: And that is that's where you go, this is the guy.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Great.
John Holt: Because he's he's fucking amazing in that movie.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: So it makes sense that they were pushing on us. But they did the same with light Josh Hartnett as well.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes.
John Holt: um He was suddenly everywhere. ah There's a couple of others I'll probably forget. but And it seemed like the whole movie star system, they still wanted it, but it was dead.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: And it's only recently really come back with your Chalamets and your Sidney Sweeney's and all that business.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm. Yeah.
John Holt: But it's strange.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: who had In everything. Yeah.
John Holt: And hes like Sam Wyrmectady has got one gear. Like one gear.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I'm not sure what that gear is. It's just like, kind of like...
John Holt: It's just i mean I'm here and I'm bog standard person, generic. Not generic, like handsome guy, obviously, but he's not like Ben Affleck handsome or Henry Cavill handsome, is he?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: he brings nothing. Yeah, yeah.
John Holt: He's just, I don't know.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: If if you sort of said, right, AI, generate me a man, it would look like Sam Worthington.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, I really would. And then also, if you were like, AI, like, make this this this man, like, say dialogue, it would sound exactly... just Just very, like, uniform, like, nothing... Like, it's nothing... He's not terrible, but he just, like, almost, like, sucks all the life out of a film.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like, when he's...
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And he could just be playing the same character like in every film. for There's just no nuance, no attempt at nuance, no trying to do anything different.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And ah again, for me, Salvation's big mistake was trying to make him like a main character alongside...
John Holt: But that's the other thing, because he's supposed to be like the second lead, but I feel like he's in it way more than Christian Bale is.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. I think it's his story, dude. Like it's all about like, yeah.
John Holt: It is, isn't it, really?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Cause it's all about like, they want to kind of lure you in with the whole thing. Oh, it's about the war against machines. But I really do feel like it's about like what makes a man, a man and kind machine like be a human.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like I, I think it is his story. Like he's, it's like crazy revelations about John Connor. Like it's all, it's all about, it's all about Sam Worthington. Like, um,
John Holt: Mm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And that's just why i yeah, I can't get on board with it with with this film. It's also, i feel like it's such a huge shift away in tone.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like it's very like moody. It was that classic like 2009, 2010 where they did it with video games. Well, they're like, let's just make everything like brown and just fucking horrible.
John Holt: Yeah, it's kind of color palette.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and
John Holt: It's very much like Stain's gravel pit, isn't it?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: It's just like... Do you remember this is the period where like posters would have like a load of grit randomly flying in the air?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes, yeah.
John Holt: In the background? So you've got the Captain America poster where he's literally stationary, but like grit is just flying up around him.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah vicky
John Holt: Kind of thing. and It feels like, yeah, this is like literally grey and dusty.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, and it's just it's just kind of like the film. like It just kind Yeah, it's a bit slower paced and it just it just doesn't feel...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: just doesn't feel like a Terminator movie. And I just think...
John Holt: Well, it's more of a war movie. That's the thing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yeah.
John Holt: Because it's breaking format, isn't it?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
John Holt: Let's be honest. like you like Terminator 1, 2, and 3 are basically chase movies, right?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
John Holt: So this, Terminator is kind of ah riff on the Halloween-style slasher stalk and kill the teenagers. right And this is not that.
John Holt: This is a war film, basically.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah yeah Yeah, with a very ah like nihilistic tone, which again, I don't know. i I guess there are elements of that, like we said, with Terminator 3's ending and stuff.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But it's just it's yes just it's just all it's just all a bit miserable and a bit drab and a bit like, I'm not here for this. And then you know when we get the now kind of staple Arnie cameo, and I think it's the only film where he's not like directly been in it, but then, you know...
John Holt: Yeah, I think he's like motion captured, isn't he?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, and he looks fucking awful. And it's just...
John Holt: It doesn't look good.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: They just put him in there just to be like, hey, we brought Arnie back, so...
John Holt: Yeah, yeah. But that's a member berry. Do you know there's another member berry? And this is really nerdy.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, yeah.
John Holt: Because, you know, in Terminator 2, where you see John Connor as an adult in the beginning, and he's got that mean scar, like, under his eye on his cheek.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes. Yes.
John Holt: Do you see Christian Bale get given that scar in the factory?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, Okay.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That is a proper member berry. Oh, jeez.
John Holt: That's super nerdy, and I wasted my life. um yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Sorry, me too.
John Holt: but
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Me too, John. Me too.
John Holt: But um I think ah think the action movies in this film are really, really good. um I think Anton Yelchin really good as Carl Reiss.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. Yeah.
John Holt: um And do you know about the the original ending for this one?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh no, I don't know.
John Holt: Okay. This is really interesting. Because this is back in the times of Ain't It Cool News when they used to leak all these things and warn you about bad movies a year before they came out and that kind of thing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: And they got hold of this original script for Terminator Salvation while it was filming. And it turned out the ending...
John Holt: of Terminator Salvation was originally whatever metal endoskeleton is under Sam Worthington's character ends up under the skin of John Connor.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, okay.
John Holt: Yeah. And so it was going to go forward with John Connor was actually ah machine.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah That could have been interesting if Chrissie and Bale didn't fall out with the entire production team.
John Holt: interesting but not the the time period where you want to anger the nerds so there was like massive backlash and then while they were filming it they changed it and you can you can tell um because that ending is a little bit pants it's the kind of thing in that you've spent spent all that time with sam worthington and it's just like nah mate see
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: True. Oh, okay. tra
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: it oh
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yes yes it very much is
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah sack it off they're like they're just watching try to act and they're just like they gradually just turn to each other and they're just like no just cut it cut it it's gone
John Holt: yeah
John Holt: Yeah, yeah. Just, just, we're done. We're done.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So the interesting question for me is, because we're not necessarily saying what's a better film, but which one we we would prefer to like carry on the...
John Holt: wait Which timeline do you want to see continue? Because... I've got, well, going into this, I've got, I've had a very definite opinion one way, but then speaking to you my opinion is wavering a little bit, but let me post it to you.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mmm...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I post it to you, sir.
John Holt: li i I put it to you in the, if you pick Terminator 3,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: post it to you.
John Holt: What you're saying is you want Terminator Salvation with Nick Stahl and Claire Danes.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah, yeah. I
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: i agree. I, yeah, yeah.
John Holt: Whereas if you pick Terminator Salvation, what is the next chapter in this future war?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. So, in terms of films, I think i I... As a side note, I massively prefer Terminator 3. I don't particularly love Terminator 3, but I just think it's...
John Holt: I think they might be on an even Stephen Kill for me. I think, maybe. Maybe. Maybe Terminator 3 has a slight edge.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, and there's always an element where Terminator 3 gave me a watered-down version of something I wanted, whereas... Salvation, again, like you have to applaud it in in some respects because it did try to do something different. How successful that was, I don't know.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But I think Terminator 3 is is my it's it's a film that I prefer.
John Holt: Yeah. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and in terms of the timeline, I probably have to say Salvation because I would want it after that to not necessarily be just about like John Connor. I mean, ah he dies in the end, so obviously that's not going to happen. and but in that, I wanted more like little stories about, about the water, like just about random people who weren't necessarily going to like save the world.
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah And I feel like that gets into kind of Warhammer territory. But yeah, I think that's, yeah, the the the war with the machines is an intriguing prospect.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I think they could have done something in that universe. But I think, yeah, with the, I mean, I think it was pretty clear pretty quickly that I think it more or less just like broke even at the box office. So it wasn't, uh,
John Holt: Well, Turbine and Salvation, this is a funny thing about why they keep rebooting these. None of these movies were really flops. It's the strangest thing because Like Terminator Salvation made $371 million worldwide.
John Holt: Now that's what... That's $20 million more than what Jurassic Park made worldwide the first time around. you put it in that context, and then it's it's not even $100 million less than what Terminator 3 made...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: True.
John Holt: And that's not, I mean, this is where it's gotten so stupid.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: i mean, I don't know how much they spent on it. It's probably like silly money. And that's why it didn't break even. But they're not like, they're not out and out flops.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean, it's not like a flop. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, none of them are, really.
John Holt: I mean, well, I think kind of one is, but we'll get to that in a minute.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I don't think. Yeah.
John Holt: So what we saying anyway? We're saying that Terminator Salvation is the timeline we want to see win this round.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. I... Yeah.
John Holt: Okay.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I thought yeah i think so. Yeah.
John Holt: Okay.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: do Do you also share my...
John Holt: Well, that's fair enough.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: share my
John Holt: Yeah, I concur with that because Nick Stahl had some personal problems, man. And if he's in another movie, he's going to have more money to spend on drugs.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: but it's it's It's better for him.
John Holt: Yeah, he did not do well post Terminator 3.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and And then... No. There's a lot of... Actually, to be honest, like, I think if you play John Connor, like, you tend to... Okay, Christian Beldegon sees some great things, but obviously you have the infamous meme. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: 100%.
John Holt: Well, that's the thing I think Terminator Salvation is best remembered for, is the on-set rant, which I still listen to every now and then, when I just need a little bit of perspective.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It... ah ah hundred percent
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: it it
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's it fascinating. And do you know what? Like, ah this probably shows my age, maybe, but don't know about you, but I don't necessarily think about the rant. I think about the poor bastard that he's ranting at.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I feel so bad.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And he can't, he won't be, if it he knows if he raises his voice to Christian Bale, so shut the fuck up, like, he's getting sacked.
John Holt: Yeah, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: like, fair play to him. Like, was just like, it was just like, I'm not, you know, I'm not trying. I can't even remember what the fuck he did, like, move the light or something. Oh, that was it.
John Holt: peace Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He was, like, moving it moving around in the in the background and Christian Bale just fucking launched into it.
John Holt: So I think Bale's doing an intense emotional scene with Bryce Dallas Howard and...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: the director of photography, Shane Hurlburt, I think his name was, is in his eyeline moving lights around.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: hmm
John Holt: so So he's like, you've trashed performance.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
John Holt: I'm going to trash your lights. And it's so funny listening to it. And then there was like a thing It was literally like when that leaked, there was a thing a week later where Christian Bale phoned some radio show in LA and he was like, look, I was a dick. And yeah, I've apologized to Shane.
John Holt: I'm not being funny, but Shane's like 10 inches taller than me. kicked my ass and all this stuff. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Fair play to the guy.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Now, I do like Christian Bale and he's actually quite a cool guy. I mean, it did make me laugh in the rant where he's like, oh, we're done professionally, which I find...
John Holt: Yeah, I use that all the time.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: he Well, I find that hilarious as well because that that implies that, like, I'm going to fucking get you sacked. But if you want to get a drink after this, yeah, well up for that.
John Holt: Yeah, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: How the kids? Like, it's...
John Holt: Yeah. That's what he says at one point. He goes, you're a nice guy. You're a nice guy.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: you
John Holt: But just just like, come on, man. What are we doing, man? I'll
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah It is, it is.
John Holt: kick your fucking ass.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I'll kick your fucking ass.
John Holt: Yeah, Love that.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah And ah yeah, a little bonus for that is Adam Buxton does a a cool like remix of that, which is always, yeah, and like his new Adam Buxton podcast.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, it's quite enjoyable.
John Holt: I'll have to look that up.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No, it's good.
John Holt: Alright, so Terminator Salvation goes forward into the final.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's good.
John Holt: So now we have round two.
John Holt: So Terminator Genisys from 2015 that made million worldwide at the box office
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mental. Mental.
John Holt: Which is just as much as Terminator 3.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: Okay, that's crazy.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And it got... And I think to add to that as well, from what I can see, it got the the worst like critical feedback of any Terminator film.
John Holt: oh yeah, it was lambasted.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Possibly. Hmm.
John Holt: So it's that one versus Terminator Dark Fate from 2019, which made $261 million, which is the lowest grossing of the franchise.
John Holt: It's still not small money.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yeah.
John Holt: But probably when you're talking about budgets and things 2019, it probably had a hard time breaking even.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, ah yeah, exactly. I mean, in that era or this era, it's like ah billion dollars. It's like, yeah you've done well. Like, that's, yeah.
John Holt: So first of all, before we talk about Genesis, I feel like I need to prepare you. okay
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, okay.
John Holt: And we're doing that right now.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I'm ready. like
John Holt: So you may or may not know we recorded MCU episode which was completely ravished technology wise and unreleasable.
John Holt: However, in the MCU phase one Smackdown episode, as we were calling it, strangely enough, in the course of our discussions, A little film called Iron Man 2, widely believed to be the worst of the MCU Phase 1, made it all the way to the final.
John Holt: And I say that, dear listeners, because I want to prepare you for what comes next.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: but I'm ready. I'm crying, but I'm ready.
John Holt: Okay, so Genesis. Terminator Genesis. Oh, Genesis. First of all, this film is a mess.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes.
John Holt: Like, this is a mess. Pfft.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. it The only thing you have to decide with Genesis, is it a glorious mess or is it like a mess like, oh God, you fucked everything. And I think it's it's something in the middle, I think.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like... That first hour is like internal screaming. Like, but but again, i don't know if I'm screaming at it or with it or like, I feel like I'm Kyle Reese and I don't know what the fuck is going on.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean, there's, I have to say, one of the biggest ruggables in cinema history is when fucking Arnie asks those like punks for their like,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: clothes and a motorcycle and then the fucking T-1000 comes out of nowhere and you're like, oh, what?
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It just...
John Holt: So, uh, I mean, wow. So, it does that Back to the Future 2 thing where you see like scenes from the first Terminator play out, but they play out differently because Sarah Connor now has her own pet Terminator and has had the pet Terminator since 1973. And it chaos.
John Holt: and it is chaos um
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It is.
John Holt: Like, I quite like... But this is the thing. and i don't think I'm going to go for Iron Man 2 on this one. But this is the thing, right?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay, I'm ready if you are. Yeah.
John Holt: Is the timeline chaos in Terminator Genisys... Is likely the end point of this entire saga. Like you got people coming back.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: Like you said earlier yourself. That you didn't even know. Like why in Terminator 3. Kate Brewster would send the Terminator back to that point.
John Holt: what How would she know? Because the future has already happened.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. yeah
John Holt: So there's all sorts of things like that. And it's never explained who sent the Terminator back to 1973 to be like Sarah Connor's like guardian.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No.
John Holt: That's never explained. But then we get the sort of future bit where Kyle Reese ah Is being sent back. And as.
John Holt: He's being sent back. John Connor is grabbed by.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: hi
John Holt: Matt Smith.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Matt Smith. Mm-hmm.
John Holt: In his one scene.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yep.
John Holt: All his other scenes got cut. And so. Then Carl Rees goes back. And it looks like Terminator 1. But Sarah Connor is already. Kind of a small badass.
John Holt: And.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: a
John Holt: She's got a Terminator. And then. There's a T-1000 and then they jump go forward in time with something that Arnie's built in the sewer with the turtles.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
John Holt: And then I lose all track of it. But then John Connor is a Terminator, but he's T-1000 with nanobots, which have been created by a mobile phone company.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: And... Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That's the best bit. You did like, I was like, Vodafone, basically, are going to take over the world.
John Holt: yeah It's basically like iPhones are bad and they've made this shit worse.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, and also it's a really minor point ah in terms of all the other stuff.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But, like, Carl Rees, like, doesn't die as well.
John Holt: No, he doesn't. and And this is... Okay. Right. So on my notes, i've I've written Amelia Clark, weak.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Here he is. Here we go. I
John Holt: And for some reason, I've just written, I've just written, Jaya Courtney, fuck off.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: mean...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: i mean
John Holt: Because Jaya Courtney was the Sam Worthington of 10 years hence, in that people were like, oh, he's Australian.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: oh
John Holt: He's got a round head. Let's put him in everything.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I... He might be worse than Worthington. I think I'd...
John Holt: ah He's considerably worse than Worthington.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like, holy shit. And, like, Kyle Reese is, like... Like you look at Michael Bean from the the the first Terminator. It's like he's kind of like he's got the charisma. He's, you know, really funny and charming, but he's also like haunted by what he's done.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah you just get this big fucking slab of meat. And they're just like, yeah, go, just just just say some lines. Just do some exposition. and Try and try and look like you fancy Emilia fucking Clark.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, no, can't do it. how Fuck are you? Shit, mate.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He is a dreadful.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: The thing I'd say about Emilia Clarke, I agree she is just sweet weak in this. What I would say is I think she's a pretty good actress, but she is woefully miscast as Sarah Connor.
John Holt: She's great in rom-coms, but she, I think Amelia Clark in an, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: She's just lovely. She's just so bloody lovely. Like, but she's not Sarah Connor.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: She's not Sarah Connor.
John Holt: In an action hero role, she has the same problem that Florence Pugh does in those Marvel movies. in that i just don't You don't look like you could hurt anyone.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No. i mean, Emilia Clarke is...
John Holt: With a gun, yeah, fair enough. But anyone could. But but you don't look like you you would beat the shit out bunch of people in in a mental home to escape.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No. And she doesn't... In this film, there's not really anything to really suggest she's a badass other than they're like, look at Sarah Connor. And even then, you're like,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah ah I obviously wouldn't look into this, but one could say it's like, oh, she's being fucking looked after by this big, like, male figure, and it's like... So the whole point of Sarah Connor is she's gone through a fucking life, like, alone.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like, nobody else has cared for her, which the Dark Fate, I think, does pretty fucking well. But in this one, it's just yeah, I'm just best friends with this with this dude.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and He looks after me. He's reason I haven't died.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah ah Yeah, um
John Holt: I mean, to be fair, Arnie in it,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah meant
John Holt: again, is pretty good. He's got a couple of banger lines, but some that veered too far into cheese.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: And he's clearly been paid a lot.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So, yeah, I think he works as I genuinely do like it when he cameos.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I think, and we'll talk about him more with Dark Fate, I think he's better when he's not in it for that much and he's not talking for that much.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: If he's, like, terminating, great.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah You could maybe say Two was an exception because he did a lot of jokes in there, but probably
John Holt: It was kind of peak Arnie Terminator 2, wouldn't it really?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, exactly. But when you're looking at like old Arnie... Also, okay, this is another one where I think it's Genesis that fucks up. I saw Genesis and Dark Fate very close together, so I might meld some details.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But I think it's Genesis where they're like... ah Because they're like, oh, why do you look so old? And he's like, because like although we're like Terminators, our skin is like designed to age.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I'm like, but why?
John Holt: Hmm.
John Holt: Yeah, why would it be?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And why? what what Why does it need to wait? The whole point of a terminate is not so they can sit on a fucking ranch.
John Holt: but it was But the point of the... Originally, when Carl Reiss tells it in Terminator 1, is there infiltration squads so they can pass as humans. So if you're talking about Terminator... I mean, we'll get to this with Dark Fate, but if you're talking about a Terminator that ages, that's the perfect infiltration, isn't it?
John Holt: You don't know how long that mission is going to be. like If we had a bunch of Terminators right now in in like Russian Parliament or wherever, this would all be done. This be a peaceful world. but I don't know.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay, that's fair. I didn't, yeah, I didn't think of it from that point of view.
John Holt: I mean, they don't seem to. They seem to be all about mini-guns and death. but
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, and not eating Werther's originals by the fire. Yeah, that's true.
John Holt: no
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah the Okay, the other thing. The more I think about this, the more horrendous it is.
John Holt: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I can forgive Genesis for pretty much everything. Like, a lot of it is, like, batshit.
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: A lot of it is just shit. Two things are indefensible. So, and they all revolve around a young ah Kyle Reese.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: there's the first thing where it's like, ah Sarah Connors, like, says to that the young Kyle Reese, she's like, oh... ah When she does that stupid fucking thing where she's like, oh, just go straight ahead and don't look around and stuff, I'm like...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And she's like, oh, you know, you're a great kid and stuff. It's like, you are going to bang this kid in, like, 10, 15 years...
John Holt: Yeah, what is that? Well, what is that scene all about? Like, that doesn't even make sense to me.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's fucking weird. And then, that's what
John Holt: Why was she even there?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It was so weird. She just like passed the family in a stairwell or whatever. Like I can't even remember in whatever fucking weird factory. though That's ah the worst bit for is.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And to be fair, this would be great as a horror film. At the end, young Carl Rees, he's like, oh, you know what? Like, I think I can be this, you know, I can grow up. I can be the kid I want to be. And then, okay, so first of all, an older version of himself talks to him, which, first of all, that would fuck you up.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Second of all, he teaches that young Carl Rees, like, the whole Skynet will fucking kill the world in, like, ten years. Like, this kid must be, like, really fucked up.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And like imagine your parents, you go outside and then somebody who looks like your son is saying to your son, like, in like 10 years, the world will explode. be like, get the fuck off my lord, get away from my...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: chat Like, it's really...
John Holt: Absolutely.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I don't know.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Maybe no one else are like... I was just like, you've just fucked this poor kid up.
John Holt: Well, that's the thing. like but this That's like one of about 75 different things light in this film where there's all these good ideas that individually could be a film on their own.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm. Yeah.
John Holt: or a story on their own, or you know season one of a whole TV show on their own.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: And yet, like none of them are given any time to breathe.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mmm.
John Holt: So it's just not satisfying. And it's like just this this mess of a film.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No.
John Holt: i mean I do think this this whole idea of like subverting John Connor, so like Jason Clarke plays John Connor in this, and being him being bad guy in some way shape or or form is not necessarily a bad idea it's is' quite interesting but they've never really they they don't they don't play it as well as they could have and it's just it's like one more messy thing in a sea of mess
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. And he was not, I really liked Jason Clarke. I think he's a, he's a great actor and he is good at playing villains, but I felt he was probably the weakest villain. And like, that's the thing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: You've always got to have a big bad that's always slightly stronger than he just, it just seemed quite, just quite annoying.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And then, yeah.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And then when they just got fed up with him, they just made him stick to a fucking wall. And,
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, and then it it didn't have the... Yeah, the whole nanobot thing, I was just like, no, I'm not i'm not for this. like
John Holt: No.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And the whole subverting and like making the the the hero... ah you know so it's very It feels a bit rise of... ah no Jesus, I can't even remember.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: that The one where Luke Skywalker goes bad, it felt a bit... The Last Jedi just felt a little bit like, oh, we're subverting expectations because, i don't know, it's a thing to do, really. Like...
John Holt: Because we can.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Because we can exactly and it just yeah wasn't a convincing villain at all.
John Holt: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay.
John Holt: There's so much like interesting things in in the chaos here. Like, Lee Byung-hun plays the T-1000 for the first 20 minutes of the movie.
John Holt: And he's like so cool. ah love I love watching that guy. He's freaking excellent in season two of Squid Game as well.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and okay
John Holt: And, um, but he's not in it enough.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: And that would have been like ah sole villain for a great Terminator movie, but they just acid wash him the fuck out of there.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: They're great. They're great.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah.
John Holt: And, um, yeah, it's just, it's a shame because I think there's, there's potential in it. and And the weird thing is, I mean, more on this when we talk about the eventual winner in a little while, but you know, they were so confident this was going to be a hit.
John Holt: And it was a hit, weirdly. Like, we just said it made money. But they had already greenlit the sequel to this.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Wow, really?
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And they must have...
John Holt: But it was so critically lambasted. And the the weird thing is, with this movie, James Cameron actually endorsed it.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Wow.
John Holt: They pulled him out, probably back to dump truck full of money down his lawn. But he like came out publicly and said, look, man, Terminator Genisys is the shiznit, yo.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah It is great and you should all watch it and it's the future.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: We were like, I don't know what I've just seen, James, but like okay.
John Holt: I don't know. i don't know, James. um
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: So anyway, Terminator Dark Fate 2019. The one that made the less money. um This is a
John Holt: It's kind of a legacy reboot call, I guess.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: um Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
John Holt: So it does this thing early on.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I'd agree.
John Holt: It's not fucking around. And it's like, right, here's sort of whatever.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Great opening, great opening.
John Holt: A little while after the end of Terminator 2, we're in Mexico. Sarah Connor and her son John are in a bar. An Arnie model Terminator walks up.
John Holt: Blows John Connor the fuck away He's dead The end But it's not the end but And the weird thing is with this right James Cameron had a lot of creative control Over this movie He basically Whatever happened about Genesis Maybe he felt like an idiot for endorsing it or something But he took back control And he was like look we're going to make the true sequel Once and for all I'm not going to direct it I'm going to come up with the story
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I don't know.
John Holt: Tim Miller who directed Deadpool and loved Death and Robots is going to direct this movie. And yeah. um So it goes back to the the format of the first three movies. It's a kind of stalk and chase movie.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
John Holt: And it does something where It takes place, I think it's in Mexico or on the border of Mexico.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's, yeah, because they have to cross the border back into the US. So I think it's, I think it's in Mexico.
John Holt: That's right, they're on a train, aren't they?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: So, the Terminator, here again, it's like a weird hybrid of the T-1000.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: And they're after this young girl, young poor Mexican and girl.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes.
John Holt: And a augmented female soldier from the future comes back to defend this girl.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: I think her name is... um want to say her name is Monica Reyes, but I could be wrong.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: is it? I think.
John Holt: That's Celine Reyes.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: So she's like the future savior. And then... Sarah Connor comes back into it because she's getting weird text messages from someone telling her when and where our Terminator is going pop up.
John Holt: And so all three of them are sort of like flung into this chase. Now, I'll just say it outright. Terminator Dark Fate fucking slaps. It's fucking awesome.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah
John Holt: I love it.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay, so it slaps at the beginning. So the cool like intro, the ah the fight in the warehouse, all that shit. Very cool.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I feel like it is great.
John Holt: I love that fight, man, in that factory. That is so freaking cool.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It is great. and Do you know what? It does that rare thing where you're like... It shows that Mackenzie Davis is like... she can kind of just about hold her own, but you can tell she's just fighting to like, just buy time rather than fighting to kill it.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And that, that I quite like, because by showing, because with a lot of these, it's just people just lumping shits out, 10 lumps of shit out of each other.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But from that fight, you can be like, okay, this dude's really dangerous.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And she is, like great, but you can tell she's like literally using every bit of a bit of a power to ah fight him up.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I feel like it lags a wee bit in the middle and then all the stuff where it's like meeting up with Arnie and so, okay, it's cool, but it's a bit like, you know, then got me scratching my head because I was like, what, why is he?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And then he's like, oh, i i I've got a wife, but it's not physical, but she...
John Holt: this is what we were saying about deep infiltration earlier.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm...
John Holt: So that Terminator kills John Connor, that's job done. What's it going to do?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And then just wait. Yeah, it's true. It just, it doesn't.
John Holt: so So for some reason it decides to go off and like take care of a single mum and a kid and become a curtain hanger.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah Yeah, he works for curtains, doesn't he?
John Holt: It's got like a drapery business.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, and and that's how he gets, how they how the Terminator finds him, because they find his, like, photo of that that fucking drapery there.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That storyline, I think, would have worked better if, like, it kind of, like, writes itself. Like, you've got Sarah Connor, she's lost a son, but then she needs to be, like, inflicted, because here's guy that killed a son, but he also has ah kind of surrogate son. So it's like, oh, okay, is she going to try and bond with this kid? Is she going to... But it doesn't...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It just kind of does the thing where she snarls through most of the film and then at the end she's like... She calls him Bub or whatever, or whatever his nickname is. Like, oh they finally had a... ah Understanding.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So, that sort of stuff. But when they all get together and they all fight the Terminator, yeah, fucking slaps.
John Holt: That bit on the plane is excellent.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That... yeah Yes, yes, yes. I... Yeah, the bit on the plane's excellent. The bit we're in... Oh, God, I get...
John Holt: The bit escaping the detention center is awesome as well. with like The D-1000 like,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes. He's like...
John Holt: steaming down the corridor that all the cops are like piling him and he's just like stabbing them all yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: but
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. That is fucking dope. And then... I can't remember where they're in at the end. I just want to call it generic foundry 101. But that bit's quite...
John Holt: oh yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That bit's really fucking cool when they when they fight him. I don't know how I feel about the fact that the villain has like... The exoskeleton and his skin are like separate, but not.
John Holt: Oh, I like that. I think that looks well cool.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No.
John Holt: there's There's like a shot in it where like they separate or something in like slow motion as something's about to crash into them. I just thought that was so cool.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: One bit that was fucking sick is when he's fighting Arnie and he does this weird thing where he like passes through his body and then passes back and then passes through and then like that fucking slaps.
John Holt: Yeah.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That fucking slaps. But I don't know. I'm a bit of a purist. Like I did just want to. And OK, he did stay in the skeleton. You did see all the underneath bits. But I just I don't know.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah I just wanted maybe a bit more of an explanation and maybe it it works better because you're like, what the fuck is this? But I don't know.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It did it didn't feel like, oh that's a step up because like. It was almost like they couldn't live without each other anyway. So what's the point in in separating? I don't know, man. Like, if I found out what would have worked better is if... And maybe this is what it was, but maybe if, like, the skin dude was a Terminator and then the the shell was a separate Terminator. I feel like that could have been cool.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I don't know if that's what it...
John Holt: I think that was the idea, though.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: i
John Holt: it was kind of, they could separate into two, so it was like twice the deadliness.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah But it would have been cool if, like, I don't know... We saw like machines making a big fucking skin fat and then just like, dunno, throw it and then they play cards and become brothers or something.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I dunno.
John Holt: See, what I really liked about this film, I think in the first half an hour of watching this in the cinema, it felt so good because it was like you were watching a proper Terminator movie again. It was like, yes, we're back.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: And Mackenzie Davis looks, and I don't know if this was intentional or not, but you remember the Dark Horse comic I told you about in the 90s, Robocop versus Terminator?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: but Mackenzie Davis looks exactly like the female in that story sent back to defend Robocop from the Terminator. Like the spitting image, exactly that character.
John Holt: And I was like, yeah, man.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, that's got to be deliberate, right? Yeah.
John Holt: Yeah. So that was that was that was awesome. I quite like the way that in this movie as well, like Sarah Connor is broken and insane.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes.
John Holt: But I feel that this movie sort of tests Linda Hamilton a bit too much and I don't think she's quite up to the task.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I did.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. There we go. Okay, you said that better than i literally ever could because I was like, was like, yeah, she's good and she's iconic and she's kind of doing the right things, but it doesn't quite, yeah.
John Holt: Yeah, some of the delivery is a bit off.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It does, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah. There's, yeah, there's a couple of bits where she gives like, Arnie goes to touch her or something. She gives like proper ooh, and it's just bit like, okay. It's bit, it's a bit, yeah.
John Holt: But I have to say, the one thing I don't like about this movie that became apparent is the female saviour doesn't work for me, is not quite believable in a way that Emilia Clarke wasn't quite believable, especially the scenes where it's like flashes forward into the future and you see her
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, she doesn't look like a ah war hero.
John Holt: And it's just not, yeah, it just doesn't, I don't know.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: For me, you've got to have... There's probably one protagonist too many. I think you've got to have Arnie in there somewhere. You've got to have the soldier that comes back, which is Mackenzie Davis.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Then you've probably, because of who she is what she means franchise, probably got to have Linda Hamilton. And that's it, really.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I don't think ah Natalie Reyes, I don't think you needed.
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And she was fine whenever I saw her, but she just seemed very like superfluous to the story. I didn't really...
John Holt: I think it's a tricky thing because you've got to have someone that
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like, human and relatable, doesn't know what's going on. Like...
John Holt: vulnerable for being told they're the savior and that they're on the run so that's got to work but then they've actually got to be believable as becoming this great soldier of the future as well and it's difficult because you can't really get that I mean I don't
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: I don't know. like ah don' know like Just being really basic here, but but imagine like someone like Gina Carano, for example. like She looks like she could hurt you.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. Yeah.
John Holt: But then ah the other side of that coin is you're not going to believe it when she's scared and frightened either because just crush them in your thighs, Gina. So it's like, I don't know.
John Holt: It's a tricky thing and it's difficult to get right.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
John Holt: But that for me is always a bit of a weak point somehow.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Weirdly, yeah, and weirdly, I think in a strange way, I feel like maybe Edward Furlong probably did the best at being like, oh, this this guy is, the this is what he is now. This is a template of like the man he's kind of born to be.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah And I feel like no no one else has ever it. I mean, we could do a whole podcast and like the absolute fucking abject torment of the fact that he just...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: like yeah He did two films, was incredible, and both of them then just fell off the face of the earth for so many reasons.
John Holt: Yeah, again, drugs will end your kids.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Drugs, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It really will. So, yeah.
John Holt: Really well.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But, yeah, it it it does feel a bit overpacked. And I feel like Mackenzie Davis is very strong in the first half. And then I feel like in the second half maybe trails off a bit.
John Holt: Yeah, she's sort of powering down and at risk. Those augments aren't reliable.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. Yeah. And as soon as she's like, oh, ah I've got a power call, was like, okay, you're you're dead in the next 20 minutes. ah So, yeah, it was like all the all the best.
John Holt: this
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah
John Holt: let me ask you a question though terminated dark fate is it woke
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: oh a No. i think the only thing that you could... construe as being... Not even woke, but, like, the whole, like, immigration angle. They're clearly trying to shoehorn that in there and be like, oh the whole Mexican immigrant situation, which I get is very complex, but... No, and the whole thing, because I think there was a bit of stink at the time, so they're like, oh, it's a female Mexican actor, blah, blah, blah. But no I don't think it's woke, particularly.
John Holt: No.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Do you...
John Holt: I mean, it's one of those things that I didn't really realize it until recently, and then it was like, I guess you could say it's kind of woke, really, but I don't know. It's a strange world we live in at the moment. I don't really notice these sorts of things.
John Holt: not like trying to virtue-sickle or anything like that, but someone said to me so today, pointed something out, which I guess is woke, but I didn't actually notice it, and I didn't care.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay.
John Holt: It's like, tell me a good story.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: What? ah
John Holt: I don't care. But know.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, well, as in that was the the the lines in the in the film.
John Holt: No, I was talking about like Daredevil Born Again and it was like, oh, did you realize though that they replaced this person and this person with like this person and this person?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, okay.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, with a... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Holt: And I was like, I didn't actually notice that at all because he's it didn't felt like it stuck out.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: But anyway.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, I know what you mean.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: Anyway. um So we have to decide on winner from these two. And going back to my earlier point about Iron Man 2...
John Holt: And I just want to put it to you.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: Can you imagine what the sequel to Terminator Genisys would have been like?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah he Yeah.
John Holt: It would have been like Southland Tales under the Silver Lake levels of glorious, complicated disaster.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
John Holt: And I think for that reason alone, maybe it would have been worth seeing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Possibly.
John Holt: But you would have got more Jai Courtney, so...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: The only way... would have got more Jai Korp. The only way I would have accepted it is if they got all the Arnie Terminators, all the t one thousand all the Kyle Reese's, all the John Connors, and then just somehow made them have a big fight at the end, like a big battle royale.
John Holt: That was probably the original idea, know, wouldn't surprise me.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, probably. but Like literally Highlander, there can be only one. Then I'd get behind it. ah I'd say... you know what, though?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I maybe have to disagree because after watching, again, watching these fields both in close proximity, i
John Holt: I'm not saying that's my choice. I'm just saying that's that's what you've got to decide about, know.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It would be meant to... Yeah, yeah. But I mean, for for me, after six, because i so i did it I did a bit bit of a weird, ah John, I watched Dark Fate first and then watched Genesis.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So, which was a bit, you know, I'm just bit unorthodox, you know, I'm a bit crazy. I'm a bit kooky.
John Holt: Well, let's be honest, none of them fall along from each other, do they?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: but Yeah, well, that was my logic.
John Holt: So...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: i was like, if Genesis is like the the one that we've all got now pretend never happened and it's been retconned, was like, okay, well, I'll just watch Dark Fate.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah Yeah, at the end of Genesis, I wasn't like, oh, it'd be so cool to get a sequel. I'm gutted. But then at the end of Dark Fate, was like, okay, like I can... Yeah, I would want to explore this universe and go from there. I think i think with Dark Fate, I probably liked it more than I've given it credit for.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah i feel like I've been quite lukewarm on it, but I think...
John Holt: Yeah. ah Where are we at the end of Dark Fate? Because we're Reyes and
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, Terminator.
John Holt: Sarah Connor.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Sarah, yes, they're doing things. Now that's... Yeah, now that would... who Can you imagine? I mean, a sequel like that would get absolutely like... Two female leads in my Terminator films?
John Holt: How dare you!
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: How dare you? and Yeah. It's a tricky one. But then I don't know how many more films Linda Hamilton's got in her. And again, like she...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Not like that. I mean, mate, she's got many good, wonderful decos ahead of her, but she's on...
John Holt: Going from discussing woke to being completely ageist. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Well, it's like... I forget her name now, but she's very similar to, I think, the the female cop in Robocop in the sense that they're both like...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: fairly, like, iconic in their roles, but A, they don't tend to act outside of their franchise, and B, as you say, when they get stretched, tend not to do so well.
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So if if we're literally going from, like, the ending of Dark Fate to, like, Dark Fate 2 Fate Darker, then yeah yeah, I...
John Holt: Yeah.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, you're going to make me say Genesis, aren't you? You absolute bastard.
John Holt: I'm not, no, i'm I'm not making you say anything.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No, no! You're...
John Holt: I'm just putting it to you that that you got like either a straight sequel or a glorious mess that people will talk about for centuries. ah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I think i think even you've incepted me at some point. I'm not sure at what point in this podcast, but you...
John Holt: Nope.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: There was some Derren Brown, like, I think Genesis just flashed up on the screen for, like, 0.2 of a second.
John Holt: No. Okay, let's not... God's sake.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I think it's going to be Genesis.
John Holt: This is the exact same reaction I had when Iron Man 2 made it to the fucking final.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I think it's got to be Genesis.
John Holt: No! No, so let's not go down this road.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Because... 10 Kyle Reese's...
John Holt: ah please!
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: 10 Sarah Connors, 10 T-1000s, and they just fight each other at the end. Like, that that's... what um That's what I need. Oh, shit.
John Holt: No.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: like it Why couldn't we have just discussed this?
John Holt: I'm not having it. ah Sorry I haven't floated this idea.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Is it Amelie overruled?
John Holt: We can't do this.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: You need... You need an overruled sound effect, which may just be the bell again, but yeah.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Um...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, that'll do.
John Holt: That'll do.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That's it. Nothing says overall like a fucking baseball chime.
John Holt: Yeah. So I'm vetoing it because I think that... All right, we're we're talking about which timeline do we want to see go forward.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. And I've kind of...
John Holt: Alright, so let me put it another way, right? Okay. Terminator Gen Yithuf 2, Gen Harder, is going to give you a migraine.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: The Vodafone Wars.
John Holt: It's going to make you go cross-eyed. Whereas Terminator Dark Fate, if James Cameron's still involved, same team, they're going to up their game.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, like...
John Holt: It's going to be glorious to behold.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: e
John Holt: For that reason, I'm picking Dark Fate.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: right, let's go Dark Fate. Yeah.
John Holt: Alright, so that means we're on to the final, didn't Innit!
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: what and What final this is.
John Holt: The final. Terminator Salvation versus Terminator Dark Fate. Which one of these two do we want to see go forth? And again, i'm I'm wary of what I say now because I don't want to sway your opinion too much.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ola All I'll say now is we must be the not only the only podcast, but the only two people, I reckon, in the history of humankind who have ever asked themselves, would I prefer the Terminator Salvation Universe or the Terminator Dark Fate Universe?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I genuinely think we're the only two people that have ever thought no.
John Holt: Yeah, it feels like the Terminator series isn't really talked about that much anymore.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: no it's very It's definitely kind of fallen by the wayside. I mean... Be interesting to see if they ever do get a sequel slash reboot slash whatever the fuck.
John Holt: Well, James Cameron said he's doing something else with it. Like, he can't announce it yet, but he's got plans. And we had the anime last year as well.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Problem is...
John Holt: That's pretty good.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, the problem is JC isn't the ah behemoth of cinema that he once was. I mean, he he would strongly disagree, and rightly so, but...
John Holt: Oh, have you heard that Avatar 3 is actually longer than the other two?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, and a half. How the fuck can it be like?
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I've never been more just like, well, this is a waste of time after Avatar 2. Like, just...
John Holt: I guess, like, from James Cameron endorsing Terminator Genisys, you could tell that was like the early signs, wasn't it?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Just...
John Holt: That Avatar The Way of Water was coming.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: Little
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah! That was...
John Holt: odd.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That was a progenitor. It all stemmed from that. Um... um God, this is difficult. I mean, i would like to see a return to, like, just the the the war stuff.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So there is a game on my list called, i believe it's called Terminator Defiance, which I believe is, like, set in the universe where it's, like, it's a war against machines and it's meant to be very good.
John Holt: Oh, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So I am kind of, yeah, I think it came out,
John Holt: I've not heard of that one.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Last year, and it was kind of a bit of surprise hit. I think it got panned a bit, but then like a few reviews and stuff were like, actually, this is pretty fucking good. ah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: God, this might be the toughest choice I've ever made on any one of our podcasts, you know. Okay, okay I'm going to go with Salvation because...
John Holt: Tch.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: you can you You can take that in a different direction. don't have to go with John Connor. Again, you can if you want and just resurrect him, whatever. don't to go Carl Rees. You can kind of forego all that. You can go and look at other parts of the universe and how normal people deal with Terminators, blah, blah, blah, blah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Whereas, yeah, like you Dark Fate was like a legacy sequel, but I don't think you can... I just don't think there's much more you can do from that.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Maybe.
John Holt: Yeah, I mean, okay, I'm going to agree with you and I'm going to pick Salvation as well. And listen, if you're listening to this and going, you lot are mad people, fair point. But I will remind you, we're not talking about cricke critical faculties necessarily here.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes.
John Holt: We're talking about timelines, right?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
John Holt: And we're talking about four reboots and which one would we like to be enough of a success so that it's another sequel in that timeline. Terminator Dark Fate, when it boils down to it, it is the fourth stalk and chase movie in five movies, right?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: So there you go.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I would call it... Yeah. I would actually say that the biggest compliment i can pay play biggest compliment I can pay Dark Fate is that you could put that as a sequel to Terminator 2 or Terminator 3 and it works. It's also probably the third best film, I would say.
John Holt: Yeah, I think Dark Fate is actually better than all the other films on this list, aside from the first and the second one.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
John Holt: But again, we're talking about timelines and we're talking about universes.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah Yeah, agreed. Yeah. Yeah.
John Holt: And so Salvation. Yeah, I want to see more of that future war. Give it to a different director. Give it to fucking Michael Bay.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, give it Give it to Denny Vilna.
John Holt: Jesus, he's got experience with giant robots.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Fuck me.
John Holt: Oh my God, that'd be so good.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That would be fucking dope.
John Holt: I wish you hadn't said that.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It would be so, so good.
John Holt: Awwww. Can you imagine the scale of it?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, the beautiful and, like, the philosophy behind it and, like, yeah, the scale, the...
John Holt: Oh.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And do you know do you know what's the best thing about this episode and about this topic?
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: For once, I, James Peter Brigginshaw, understood the fucking assignment.
John Holt: You did. And your middle name's Peter. I didn't know that.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And it is. Yeah, it is true. Yeah.
John Holt: Oh, man.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: After after to my old grandpappy, yeah.
John Holt: I've always liked that name.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's good. It's it a good good old British name. sir So, yeah, it's all right.
John Holt: good for you, Pete.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: P. Diddy. Oh, no, that's probably... Cut that. Cut that. a
John Holt: Pete Bricky. You're Pete Bricky now.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: P.
John Holt: Hence, forevermore.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Briggie.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: When I get cancelled in the future, there'll be, like, the the the P. Briggie tapes, like...
John Holt: yeah Alright, so Terminal Salvation is the winner of this little timeline throwdown that we've had. So, that brings us more or less to the end.
John Holt: All we have to end on is our one good thing that's happened in the last week.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mmm.
John Holt: So, one good thing. I was flat on my back, as you know, for most of the last three weeks. um
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes.
John Holt: And so I watched on YouTube Stone Cold Steve Austin's Broken Skull Sessions. with Bret Hart, which is like a two-hour deep dive on their careers.
John Holt: And it was fascinating.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Awesome.
John Holt: It goes through the Montreal Screwjob, which we all know about,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm-hmm.
John Holt: That bit's a bit boring. But then it goes into Bret Hart and Stone Cold watching their matches together and talking through them like a commentary about what was going on how they set up certain moves, how they were communicating.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I love it when they do that.
John Holt: And I had no idea that it was but like they were doing that level of kind of rehearsal and plan.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's crazy.
John Holt: And it was it was amazing to see.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's...
John Holt: Really opened my eyes.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, okay. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah, stuff like they'll just, like, if they tap someone in a certain way on a certain part of their body, it means it's different thing.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ri Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah.
John Holt: Amazing stuff. So what's your one good thing, James?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So I've actually got two two good things ah this week.
John Holt: oh
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah So number one is, this is going to sound really softy, but one of my best friends, ah John Holt, I got to see him and he's well, and that's you.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And he was he was up and at him, nearly died, but all good in the hood.
John Holt: Yeah, man.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah
John Holt: I can't be killed.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Second, you are literally like fucking Magneto or something.
John Holt: I've told you this so many times. i mean I'm a Terminator. This is why.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean, when I think about, you know, and we look at the the hip thing and stuff, Nate, you just absolutely...
John Holt: know. Yeah,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: You've gone through that brick wall when you put on the shades, like...
John Holt: it's metal.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And then the second thing is, I can't remember if I brought this up on the last podcast, but I've started collecting Warhammer 40,000 miniatures, and I've nearly finished painting, like, bought a set of, like, 10 figurines, and about an hour in, I was like, ah, fuck this, I don't know why I've done this, this is stupid. And I've nearly painted all 10, so...
John Holt: I'm going to ask you to hold one up to the camera in a minute when we start recording.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, yes, I can.
John Holt: ah You've just reminded me of something that remembered I was looking at today and I meant to tell you, have you ever seen the Warhammer McFarlane toys?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I can...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah No, I haven't, no.
John Holt: Oh, those are so cool.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: McFarlane toys are fucking tremendous.
John Holt: Yeah. Yeah, they did like a Warhammer line I didn't know about. It was awesome.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay.
John Holt: Excellent.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That's cool.
John Holt: Alright, so that's excellent.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: That brings us to the end. can follow us on blueskymediamegarumble.bsky.social and on Instagram and threads at mediamegarumble.
John Holt: We will be back probably soon-ish.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
John Holt: And yeah, we'll see you soon. Thanks for listening. Bye.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Goodbye.
