Transcript
John Holt: Hello and welcome to Media Mega Rumble. Two nerds and their contenders enter the ring. We battle it out until one or sometimes two, maybe. Media properties exit the fray, bloodied and bruised, but victorious. My name is Jon Holt.
John Holt: and I have written for chud dot .com, starburst magazine, hey you guys, horror obsessive, and more under my first name of chris or christopher. and with me is novelist, former writer for what culture, and my hetero life mate and co -host, james bringenshaw. how are you?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Very well, sir. Good evening, first of all, and second of all, good evening. How are you?
John Holt: I'm very good. I'm very excited to be here and get our first big falling out out of the way of 2025.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: but One of many. Yeah, this is a great.
John Holt: Yeah. Okay, so with that out of the way, let's get ready to rumble. Let me press the drum thing because I've got new setup here now. There we go.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That was a rumble apparently.
John Holt: So on our first title fight, we have thrown all of the actors to play Batman, because Batman is amazing, into the event and we're going to let them slug it out. Now this is live action Batman only. So there's like two actors that played Batman in a serial from the 40s, but I don't know them. I'm not familiar with their work. They are not included.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: They're dead to us, literally, and metaphorically.
John Holt: that Well, that yeah. So, you know, as great as he is as well, the late, great Kevin Conroy is not here because he voiced the character and he didn't embody him. And, you know, you could make an argument he was the best. Maybe he was the best, but he's not here. So he's not included. So the card, the card in our first Rumble event today is round one.
John Holt: Adam West versus Michael Keaton. Round two, Val Kilmer versus George Clooney. Round three, Christian Bale versus Ben Affleck.
John Holt: Then there's a surprise before we get to the three -man three -way elimination round before the grand finale.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Ooh.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I'm glad when you said that you finished it with the words elimination round. I was thought I had to clear my browser history very quickly.
John Holt: we but We're just giving it another three -way. Let's keep it PG. Come on. Come on.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay, okay, okay.
John Holt: Okay. All right. So with that out of the way, let us move into round one.
John Holt: I didn't have a bell, so that'll have to do. ah Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Go work with what you got.
John Holt: So Adam West. played Batman in perhaps most famously a 60s TV show ah which then had a theatrical movie in 1966 so it counts. And he is versus Michael Keaton who of course played Batman in Tim Burton's Batman from 1989 and Batman Returns from 1992. So let's size these two bastards up.
John Holt: ah I mean, do you actually have been like a man of younger years than I? Do you have any familiarity with Adam West Batman?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I have that film on ah DVD, and and it is an all -time like top 100 fave.
John Holt: What, Batman the movie?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's iconic for many, many reasons, but yeah.
John Holt: Wow.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. Very, fit didn't I saw some of the episodes of the TV series, but if I'm honest, it even for trash can be fun, it was a bit too much.
John Holt: Yeah.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So I do for this bash, I will be obviously, as you say, going by the film.
John Holt: Uh -huh.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I mean, it's fantastic, you know, shark repellent, all that iconic stuff. So yeah, big, big,
John Holt: And me the shark repellent bat spray.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: big Big fan, although as an aside, I do think there's a weird, like the whole family guy thing, they're like, oh, Adam West is president. It's like, he became a meme, but kind of, I don't know, he didn't really feel learned, but.
John Holt: he did really weirdly become like a ah self -parody that he really leaned into.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes, yeah, which i didn't I didn't like as much, because I'm like, that the he is great as, Batman because he is so like po -face and is more or less trying to play it straight, which is where a lot of comedy comes from.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I mean, yeah, the Adam West one was kind of built on those kind of early comics. And yeah, I mean, I can't say Adam West is a particularly good actor and it's very campy, silly nonsense, but it is pretty iconic, I would say.
John Holt: No.
John Holt: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, that's the thing, because he is kind of my first Batman. And it's like, you know, that 60s TV show that was, you know, repeated ad infinitum as a kid, like, growing up in the early 80s, it was on all the time.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm. Yep.
John Holt: And it is kind of, you know, responsible for me running around the house with a tea towel, tucked down the t -shirt, you know, as a sprock. and later on discovering that oh there were these funny books too with this character in it weirdly enough and um i don't know it's a strange one like that batman 1966 movie honestly that was just on a loop like my nan had it like taped off the tv or something when he was on bbc one afternoon Every time we would go around there, they'd just put it on to shut us up.
John Holt: I feel like I know every single word in that you know show. But it's is it's a strange thing to think that like this was the accepted cinematic depiction of Batman once upon a time.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mmm. Mmm.
John Holt: Because you know like comic books, they move in cycles, I guess. so he got like a lot of really camp kind of winking stuff of the 60s you know both in marvel and dc and then it wasn't really until i guess the mid 80s where batman got kind of gritted up i mean it was a slow sort of evolution because if you look at like batman comics of the early 80s they're colorful and stuff like way more colorful than they would end up being but they're kind of
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm. Yeah. Hmm.
John Holt: I don't know, you can sort of see the beginnings of something there. You know, I think like Robin got killed, death of the family or whatever it was called, and I think that was kind of a couple of years before the Dark Knight returns, like Frank Miller sort of basically gritted up Batman, made it more cynical, made it all, you know,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. Mm hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: gritty and noir -y and i think that that kind of was then led into the sort of accepted depiction of batman because we're gonna go through this list and every single batman on it after adn west kind of owes a debt to frank miller in some way which is really weird when you think about it but um yeah so i mean michael keaton then
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm. Great. Yeah.
John Holt: in Tim Burton's Batman now again I'm old enough to remember like the the thing that stands out about this first Batman movie was was massive hype like you could not escape it when it came out
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm. Yeah. It was huge.
John Holt: Oh, it was ridiculous. I was like 9 or 10. And it was just, it was really weird because it was like a 12 so I couldn't go and see it legally. It's so annoying. But like, it just, like Batman was on like kids pants, kids t -shirts, bubblegum cards, socks, trainers, toys.
John Holt: It was everywhere.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm hmm. Yeah.
John Holt: It was nuts.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean, I was, ah because that first film was what, 89, 90?
John Holt: 89.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: 89.
John Holt: 89, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So I would have been ah literally two years old, and but it was definitely one of those where it's being part of what I'm now gonna call like the VHS generation.
John Holt: Mhm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like it was definitely one, like you say, that did the did the rounds. I had it on VHS. Like you say, I've taped it off the TV.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: um a lot and actually just what what one thing that I do find interesting is This is, as you say, is very much seen as like the start of the ah mirroring the Frank Miller stuff. It's seen as the start of the kind of really edgy Batman stuff. But if you look at those, well, certainly there's quite a few films in this list to look at, but a lot of them do still have at least some campy elements. So for me, the one that always brings to mind for the first Michael Keaton Batman,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: is when the Joker's dicking about in that um art gallery and like splashing paint around.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And like, yeah, there are some really sinister elements to the to the character. And ah for the longest time, I thought Jack Nicholson was the best Joker. But like, yeah, this there's still a little bit of camp in there and it still so leans into it a wee bit.
John Holt: yeah
John Holt: yeah it's quite cartoony it's not full detective comics you know wouldn't really get that detective element of batman like the world's greatest detective or whatever he's supposed to be until the nolan films really um i mean there's a little bit of it in the 1989 one where he's kind of downstairs in the back cave and he's trying to synthesize smilex but they don't spend
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But. Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm. Yeah. Great.
John Holt: as long on that as they do in like the dark knight for example where he's like trying to get fingerprints off a shattered bullet casing you know for a long time and that kind of thing so i don't know it it's interesting because i think the sort of cartoony element kind of had to come in
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm. Yep. Hmm.
John Holt: because of Tim Burton and who Tim Burton is and what his sensibility is.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: mmm very true yeah yeah now to be fair batman returns is
John Holt: He couldn't do Batman in in the style of, say, Matt Reeves has recently done Batman, you know, he has to have an I think second one in particular Batman Returns is is like more or less a full Tim Burton movie.
John Holt: And, you know, he got him sort of canceled with parents groups as as a result for a little while.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I'd say it was probably the only Batman film that probably scared me. And a lot of that I owe to, I think is owed to Danny DeVito's performance. And like when he bites the nose of that guy and stuff like that, I read like genuinely like gave me nightmares as a kid.
John Holt: Yeah. Yeah.
John Holt: It is kind of horrifying. It's like even when like Selena Karl gets killed, like pushed out the window, you know, like her head hits all those like canopies.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: Then she like just hits the deck, one breath like comes out of her and then all these cats start like semi eating her.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah yeah it's pretty yeah yeah it's it's horrible yeah and then like suicide bomber penguins and stuff like it's very uh yeah it's very very that that was the yeah very gritty but in terms of michael keaton i mean it a very strong opening round because michael keaton for me and i'm not necessarily saying this is going to be my winner but for me is probably
John Holt: Like you see one like chewing her fingers.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So what I look for in the kind of perfect depiction of Batman is a great Batman, but also, you know, he it's weird because it's kind of like Batman's alter ego is Bruce Wayne, where it's usually it's the other way around. It's like the uh the human element if you like is the um is the normal thing everybody so anyway uh so yes I think Michael Keaton is the best at being Batman and um Bruce Wayne.
John Holt: Really? So you think Michael Keaton wins this round is what you're saying.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I think he wins this round and as I say this doesn't necessarily mean that If he does win this, I'm going to vote for him all the way through. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen, but.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: With detail, I mean, Adam West is very silly and campy, hilarious. But Michael Keaton, he's really he's a really tough and imposing Batman, but he's also kind of a quite kind of genial, awkward Bruce Wayne as well.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: um So I think, yeah, I think Michael Keaton, for me, is a winner here and it pains me to see Adam go so early in the contest, assuming you think the same.
John Holt: Okay. Okay. Well, ah um so, okay.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Putting you on the spot there.
John Holt: One thing I will say, right?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: Is this is sort of a little bit of foreshadowing here, right?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay.
John Holt: But the voice thing that Christian Bale does, ah we don't need to do it now, but
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes.
John Holt: Michael Keaton does a little bit of that not to the extent that Bale does but if you notice when Bruce Wayne is Bruce Wayne he seems like you know a sort of overly caffeinated yuppie and then when you've got Michael Keaton in in the in the bat suit his voice does like change it goes
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay.
John Holt: Vicky, it's not exactly a real world, is it? But it's like that, it's not... I'm not wearing hockey pads!
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: two you
John Holt: Yeah, so, um...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Say he was a progenitor for that.
John Holt: It's interesting. Progen - Yeah, he, uh, walked the walk, so Belle could growl the growl, but... You know, ah just one last thing I wanna say before before we decide on a winner.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
John Holt: Some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb.
John Holt: ah Does that sway your decision at all?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: um
John Holt: the like That scene alone.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That's I mean that is honestly one of the greatest scenes like in in history and it's a little bit tongue -in -cheek but my
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean I would say watch that scene alone even if you don't watch the rest of the film. I think again it's just it's very meme worthy and like it's hilarious and it's an amazing part of the film but yeah I think and you raise Frank Miller and I think that's a very good ah point to raise because I think once we get to Frank Miller to IE
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: you know, get the Dark Knight, et cetera. It's putting Batman on a path that he doesn't really get away from.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And when it does get away from it, it fails hard.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So I would say Adam West is more of a relic of a ah ah bygone Batman rather than the future, which Michael Keaton does.
John Holt: Hmm.
John Holt: yeah yeah i mean some people do prefer the campy batman like as as recent as like i don't know when the dark night rises came out i was listening to a like a podcast once upon a time and they were like nah i just really want batman to get back to like color and camp so it's like a ah ah fair point but that that ain't what your uh little edge lords want now we want you know messed up batman but
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: that. Okay. First round. This is a friendly handshake and a walk away because I agree. Michael Keaton is the better Batman.
John Holt: He's just got more shades to him. Um, I mean, to be fair, he's got better material to work with. And you know, when 1989 is Batman came out, Adam West was a bit peeved that he wasn't asked to reprise the role.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: a
John Holt: And maybe it would have worked, I don't know, but probably not the best actor because his career, like you said, went nowhere until Family Guy, really.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, but interesting you mentioned the backdrop because kind of watching a few videos because I was interested to see what the internet or who the internet thought was the best Batman and Yeah, a lot of it you can think about like, oh, there's circumstances around it, what material they had.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and Yeah, kind of how relevant the actor was and stuff. So yeah, Adam West was just born too early, maybe, and just...
John Holt: Okay. He's too old!
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So R .I .P. Adam, I think he's still alive. and I've got to stop being so morbid on this podcast. So yeah, so okay, so you're saying Michael Keaton also.
John Holt: Yeah.
John Holt: Yeah, yeah, so that's a ah sweeping victory in round one.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Excellent.
John Holt: Well done, Mr. Keaton. Or Mr.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yes this is a tough one yeah he played an immortal batman he just did he couldn't die ever
John Holt: Douglas, as your name on your letters might be. and So round two, let's move into round two. Oh, it's an exciting one, this one. This is a tough one because you've got Val Kilmer, who played Batman forever.
John Holt: ah but Played Batman in...
John Holt: So he played Batman in Joel Schumacher's Batman Forever in 1995.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mmm.
John Holt: And it's Val Kilmer versus George Clooney, who played Bruce Wayne and Batman in 1997's Batman and Robin, also directed by Joel Schumacher.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oof.
John Holt: Now, okay. I think that out of every live action Batman film, probably
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mmm.
John Holt: These two are the most widely derided. ah One of them is downright hated.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: But I know we're going to fall out about this in a minute.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm. Hmm.
John Holt: um
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: So Joel Schumacher.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's interesting.
John Holt: Now, when this was announced, I remember being super excited because to me at that point, Joel Schumacher was the guy who made, you know, the Lost Boys falling down and flatliners.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: And I was like, always got edge to him. He's going to be the one who makes Batman even darker than the Burton films.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Wow.
John Holt: You know, the time is now kind of thing. Then, like, The trailer came out and it's like, okay, well, they didn't go in that direction. It looks like Tim Burton's films just through like this weird neon disco ball almost.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm.
John Holt: And nipples on the bat suit, ah close -ups of the bat butt that we'd never seen.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Iconic.
John Holt: Didn't need to see it, did we? Because it's under a handicape. and
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: We did need to see it, and it's very iconic, and to shake all of our lives for the better, thank you very much. Yeah, you know how you know how this is going. You knew this was how this was gonna go.
John Holt: I did. I debated. Just, just not doing it.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He's not doing it, just like, eh, George Clooney, he wasn't there. He was like George, the George Elasimby of the series.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He's just like, eh, he did one and done and it was shit, so yeah.
John Holt: It was done. So, um, okay.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm.
John Holt: Right, I mean, okay, first things first. These two films, regardless of which one's best, these films are top -heavy with villains and co -stars, sidekicks, elderly butlers, all the rest of it.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm, yes, yeah.
John Holt: It's a bit out of control um in a way that, you know, you could almost just do a best villain round out of these two because Batman barely gets a look in
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: but if you actually break it down in terms of its narrative elements Batman himself or Bruce Wayne both of them get more of an arc in a character sense in Batman Forever than they do in either Batman or Batman Returns in a weird way like they'd actually get to explore a little bit of that duality you know with the Batman's relationship with Nicole Kidman's psychiatrist character to the point where you know he considers quitting at one point in in Batman forever Forever.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yep. Yeah.
John Holt: So it's interesting because like you've got that but then at the same time you've got Val Kilmer playing Batman And although he looks the part, he's very wooden.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm -hmm. Yeah Yeah He's a psycho, but he's my psycho.
John Holt: In his role, very wooden, like stiff. I mean, you know, this was around the time where Val Kilmer had like this really bad reputation for being an absolute dick on on set.
John Holt: And Joel Schumacher is like, look, he was completely psychotic on my movie. but he was going through a divorce from like Joanne Whaley Kilmer and he was not in his yeah he was not in his right frame of mind so you can overlook a lot but it doesn't change the fact that Kilmer's a little bit stiff here
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah and I i think with Kilmer I think I genuinely believe or have to believe that if he had kind of had more opportunities for wanting to play the Batman in future films, i think I think he could have grown into the role, but we do, and yeah, there's, I mean, him including have done exactly the same amount of movies in Batman IE1, whereas even Ben Affleck, who we'll talk about, has has had more opportunities to grow his character. So I do have to believe that Val Kilmer
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: can grow into the role, or could have.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But I agree, I think he's he's he's the least interesting Batman. um And yeah, he's got the got the kind of, you know, the the boyish good looks, but also the the the kind of kind of physical stature as well.
John Holt: Yeah, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: um But yeah, this this this wasn't the...
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: the film to make him, and yeah, it did kind of cause his downfall. In terms of the film as well, I would say, like you say, despite having, you know, I mean, the two two that stand out for me are Riddler and Two -Face.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Now, I like Tommy Lee Jones as Two -Face. I don't love him as it. Jim Carrey as the Riddler is completely unbearable. And I mean, you know, he's he's got, I would say, in terms of the villains,
John Holt: ah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He'd be up there for worse less performance. So the Val Kilmer stuff, I think, yeah. So for him, it's like he's very ah by the numbers and also he wasn't always in one of the, in terms of excitement, whatever you class that as, his film was definitely the least exciting.
John Holt: uh -huh yeah oh see like we're not here to debate which movie's better because it's obvious
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: well it's it's Well, it factors into it.
John Holt: It's about the Batman.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Well, it's a big factor because for me, George Clooney, all right, look, I'm just gonna, right, you wanna know if I've got a pair of aces. I'm gonna put it down on the table and show you.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I've actually got a two and a three, but for me, George Clooney wins this because although George Clooney is just playing George Clooney, and that's okay, I guess, out of all the Batman films, and it does play some part,
John Holt: Hmm. Hmm.
John Holt: Mm -hmm And and that Do you want people to listen to this podcast?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Out of all the Batman films, this is probably my favorite one. Batman and Robin. I know it's sacrilege. I know it's a...
John Holt: It's our first episode and you already like Showing you ass God damn it like
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No. Putting them up.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: once well Once a Dark Knight comes up, I'll just say, yeah, that's my favorite film. Hopefully people have forgotten earlier on.
John Holt: some human sense
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But I just think Val Kilmer's a bit of a... bit of a non -ency at this point. And George Clooney, like he's got the looks, he's got that superstar quality that Val Kilmer doesn't have. And I just think it can't hurt that he's in one of the best, worst movies of all time.
John Holt: and Okay. Alright, look, you haven't convinced me yet. I need a bit more convincing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and Okay.
John Holt: I'll say this, right?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: So I saw Batman Forever in the cinema three times.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Good.
John Holt: Okay, I loved it when it came out in the summer of 1995, the summer of love.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: It was fantastic, right? But when Kilmer left, and he wasn't coming back and he was replaced with George Clooney. I was like, oh, this is excellent because I love George Clooney because I really like yeah ER r and From Dust to Dawn and just come out and I love that movie.
John Holt: Right.
John Holt: So just. He he's right. like Clooney is probably a better fit ah for Bruce Wayne.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, undoubtedly.
John Holt: But correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't he have like short hair in this movie?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, he does, yeah.
John Holt: Right. Okay. That's, that's strike one because Bruce Wayne should, or George Clooney playing Bruce Wayne should have the same haircut that he has in out of sight. That's the Bruce Wayne haircut.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I agree, but that's Joel Schumacher's fault for cutting his hair when he was asleep.
John Holt: Yeah. And a bit to do with ER, like he was filming Batman and Robin at night and filming ER during the day. And he had to have like one hairstyle.
John Holt: I mean, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah It's like the Henry Cavill mustache thing all over again.
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: i mean
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: The thing is, fat Val Kilmer, I'm just not getting... The thing with the Batman and Robin and George Clooney is it's... it gives you a reaction.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Whereas Val Kilmer, I think both of us who's like, yeah, I'm fine, whatever. But George Clooney, it's like, I'm like, he was kind of shit, but it kind of worked. He was just like, he was shit.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And it evokes a reaction.
John Holt: I mean.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I'd rather a bad, I'd rather misinformed Batman than an underdeveloped one.
John Holt: Okay, Clooney is a warmer presence than Valcoma.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, agreed, yeah.
John Holt: Correct me if I'm wrong, but is in Batman and Robin, I think there's an emotional scene where like Alfred is gonna die, or is dying, and to be fair, Clooney actually acts the hell out of that scene, but this is still the period
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes, yes, great, yeah.
John Holt: early George like midpoint George Clooney where he's still wobbling his head all the time when he's delivering dialogue and it wasn't until I think like the next year and like Steven Soderbergh or Spielberg or one of the Stevens said to George they were like you know you'd be a huge movie star if you just kept your head still and then from out of sight onwards that was it his trajectory was just upwards so it's still
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: that sort of point of George's career and uh i mean that here's the thing oh
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He's going places, Clooney's going places and this film catapulted him. I mean, it didn't.
John Holt: he was a shiny penny that kid um but like look like like that this batman and robin is is terrible okay it it's terrible but it's terrible like there's nothing in there that like there's
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes, he really was.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It is, yeah, and I love it.
John Holt: No amount of, like, bat credit cards, or bat ice skates, or whatever vehicles they were using to sell Happy Wheels that week, that summer, is not gonna change the fact that this is a very, very bad movie.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: they were
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Fat nipples.
John Holt: Like, it's a bad movie.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It is, it is, and I don't disagree with you in the slightest on that. It is...
John Holt: And George does not change his voice when he's in the costume. Hi, Freeze, I'm Batman. You know.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, you know what it is though, it's very much, I think this round, and I blame myself for this, I think I'm giving this too much emphasis, and I actually think...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I'm happy to go with Val Kilmer because whoever wins this ain't going through.
John Holt: Don't change your principles just just to get through because this is the whole point of this podcast.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: i i I'm a social chameleon.
John Holt: We we have to argue, otherwise it's not going to work.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I'm a so um umm a social chameleon. I will bow down to whoever, whenever it's required. I mean, yeah, as I say, I think the problem is it's the two most inconsequential Batman films and they're the two worst performing Batman films.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: like
John Holt: Oh, I don't...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I guess we...
John Holt: Well...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I would put George Clooney as ah as the worst, and then I'd put Val Kilmer above him, probably.
John Holt: I mean, in terms of box office, I'm pretty sure, like...
John Holt: Batman Forever actually made more money than both Batman and Batman Returns when it came out you know in a weird way, but then then Batman and Robin actually, like, died. Like, not died, because these things don't die, but it was like a huge disappointment compared to...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, I mean, Batman and Robin, like, let's be honest, it killed that kind of, that universe's Batman and Robin, because although, yeah, Joel Schumacher took it in a very different direction, I think it's fair to say that there's kind of connective tissue ah with Batman and Robin and Batman Forever with the kind of Tim Burton films, if you like.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So, yeah, George george Clooney kind of heralded the
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: You know, if George Clooney's a kind of chaotic downfall of Rome, Val Kilmer is the kind of economic and military stagnation in kind of the middling years.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So, and I know people were like, oh, give me that that Roman analogy. Come on, baby. Where is it? where it And there it is. So.
John Holt: There was.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: There it was and there it shall never be. It shall be buried in the tomb forever. So.
John Holt: So I, um, God.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Well, because you you're firmly in Val Kilmer, right? that's That's where we're, that's what's happened here.
John Holt: Yeah, but I'm just thinking about George.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah We all do. Look, he he invades our dreams like Freddy Krueger. That's just what he does.
John Holt: Man, I've got to really have a think. Um, okay.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's just at least, I don't know. Yeah, George Clooney's acting is not strong, but I think he has a bit, hmm.
John Holt: All right.
John Holt: Okay. I'll tell you what this wasn't planned, but you've confused me.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I just bamboozled you.
John Holt: So just bear with me.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay.
John Holt: All right. And I'm going to tell, I'm going to tell a little story and we're going to end this round.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay.
John Holt: Okay.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: Okay.
John Holt: So it would have been someone we both used to work with, um, was on holiday in Italy once upon a time.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay.
John Holt: And they actually met George Clooney in a cafe and it just so happened to be our coworkers birthday.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and okay
John Holt: And they said, hi to George. They said, can we get a picture? He was gracious and he said, absolutely. And then he ended up spending an hour with them, just chit -chatting and just being George Clooney.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh.
John Holt: And, you know, that story has always stayed with me. You know, it's just something that like just sounded like that's the guy that the world needs right now.
John Holt: You know, a down -to -earth Batman for all seasons for everyone and for all mankind. And Val Kilmer wouldn't do that.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No.
John Holt: He'd spit on you, steal your cigarettes, maybe even your Vesper.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And eat your drugs.
John Holt: And for that reason, James, I'm afraid you've convinced me and George Clooney is my winner of round two.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: a
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yay i The thing is in the the music really makes that gives it a tragic edge. And it it makes me feel like we've chosen George, but but what have we lost?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: like A part of me died when we chose you.
John Holt: I feel like I've just completely surrendered to my feelings there and and and gone with my heart rather than my brain.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I think that's what you have to do. When you've got Kilmer versus Clooney, sometimes you just have to surrender to your emotions and say, not what do I think, but what do I feel?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And yeah.
John Holt: What do I feel? I mean, in every situation I ask myself, what would George do?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm.
John Holt: Anyway, that's how I've chosen to live my life.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Well, this is it. And it doesn't necessarily, what would George Clooney do? It's George off the jungle.
John Holt: Curious George.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Curious George.
John Holt: George from Rainbow.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: George from rainbow. Gee, poor Gee.
John Holt: Georgie Porgie.
John Holt: The list is endless of good Georges.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I could go on. I could go, but I, I,
John Holt: Georges, everyone is everyone's G.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I ran out of, I ran out after one.
John Holt: um All right.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes. Okay, well, okay. I feel kind of bad about that. And that was kind of originally my choice. I think it was in music. I think you emotionally manipulated me there, but that's fine.
John Holt: I got emotionally involved and yeah I'm not proud of myself and and like this is our first episode. We're going to get so many angry people. Assuming this is obviously listened and downloaded by everyone.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Listen to, yeah, or by at least, five people.
John Holt: The internet is going to be all a flutter next Tuesday.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: They'll be like, ah I'll be like Katie Hopkins. They're like, what crazy controversial thing is that James Briggins you're gonna say? What a wild, mad cap, frothing idea is it gonna come up with now?
John Holt: absolutely don't i'm cutting that out right conspiracies jesus right no we don't need that the world don't need more no okay
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: You know, I'll be like, yeah, the thing's the best horror film last 30 years and 9 -11 was an inside job.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay, yeah, you cut that, cut that, cut that, cut that. I don't know how I got into conspiracies, but yeah. No, na no, no, it's true.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Uh, yeah.
John Holt: so round two George Clooney takes it for his one appearance as Batman in Batman and Robin oh no oh I just remembered oh spoiler warning um but he appears as Bruce Wayne at the end of the flash I forgot about that
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: uh well so that's the thing i was wondering whether i include the flash because obviously michael keaton's quite a large part of it i mean i guess we'll have talk um
John Holt: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the... See, this is how forgettable the Flash was. I didn't even mention it. Like, Keaton's like a massive part of it.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah it's weird though yeah because he is like a huge part of that however i will neither mark him up nor down because of it
John Holt: It's like the unofficial Batman 3, basically.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I know I shouldn't really pick and choose what I consider and not consider, but that's where I land.
John Holt: Yeah.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like I say, all the controversy right here.
John Holt: Okay, round three. Round three, we have Christian Bale from Batman Begins in 2005, from The Dark Knight in 2008, and The Dark Knight Rises in 2012.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mmm.
John Holt: And we have Ben Affleck from Batman versus Superman Dawn of Justice. That was the actual title. Justice League, a brief appearance in Suicide Squad, and again in 15 minutes or so of The Flash.
John Holt: So this seems, quotation mark again like the last round, this has the deceptive appearance of being an open and shut one contender against another and it's done and dusted fairly easy.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: who
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: One wishes, Chris. One wishes it were there.
John Holt: One wishes
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Would that it be so simple?
John Holt: but I'm just gonna come out right and say it and I think I've said it to you before either on another podcast or in private Ben Affleck is the most comics accurate Batman on screen to date I've just pressed the wrong button I meant to do this
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I was like, oh, there's another story. It's like, okay, cool. That also works. So my take on it is that you are 100 % correct.
John Holt: Oh,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: See, you thought I was going to be like Christian Bale and he does a deep voice. It's funny, but also iconic. You're right. Ben Affleck thing with Ben Affleck's one, right? Is he, okay, he probably, okay, you can make many arguments about the quality of the films he is in, but generally not strong in terms of the actual films he was in and the other people around him.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He knit desperately needed a film on his own, like 100%, that is the big thing that's got him there.
John Holt: Yeah. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: but The chances that he is given and knowing Ben Affleck and how consistent he is as an actor, so assuming he would bring that sort of performance into kind of solo Batman films, yeah, I think i think he's a better he's a better Batman than Christian Bale and he's a better Bruce Wayne than Christian Bale.
John Holt: Well, you just laid it out there. You just come right out and said it. You think like Ben Affleck is a better Batman than Christian Bale.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm, yeah, yeah, 100%. And Christian Bale isn't more iconic, but I would argue that is because of, first of all, I think that the Batsuit in the Bale films are kind of have the the most striking look, although I do like Affleck's, it has got that classic kind of Batman slant to it. and But I think everybody, the thing is so that trilogy of Bale films are masterpieces, so I think Bale is being held up by Nolan's genius. I don't necessarily, I don't say that as a Nolan fanboy, but yeah, he's held up by Nolan's genius, whereas Affleck is given very little to do. I mean, he's literally just there to bring the Justice League together. There's no other purpose that he has given in those films, and he he does really well with it, and he makes us wish there was more, and
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ultimately Ultimately, when ah an actor does that with a character and you want to see that character more, great.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: like Again, there there are so many rumors about, oh, is Christian Bale going to do another Batman film? Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, eh, OK.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He does or he doesn't. I don't care, really. But Ben Affleck, when it's like, oh, maybe you'll get his own solo stuff. And it was like, OK, yeah, I can see that.
John Holt: I think that was the plan like originally wasn't it it was going to be the Batman was going to be a solo movie it was going to be out in 2020 or so and I think Ben Affleck himself was going to write and direct it because obviously he's like an Oscar winning writer director slash actor um all right I'm conflicted on this one because
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm, yes, very true. Hmm.
John Holt: Christian Bale is the best actor with the best material that we've ever seen a Batman film have okay he's just excellent I mean I think there's a little bit there's something to be said about him fit in that role I think a bit too well maybe so that he feels
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: almost like a bit passive like he's not he's like buff obviously but he's not Ben Affleck buff like what physical transformation that was but he's um I mean it's weird because they're talking about Christian Bale being Batman for about five years before he actually is so by the time he sort of like fits into that Batman Begins world there was a lot in that movie
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm. Hmm.
John Holt: that was quite, I don't know, felt quite functional rather than anything else. um I think that, like I said, a lot of it is to do with him being given the best material as well. And I think that Bale is a fantastic actor and he really kind of does well without grandstanding or showy stuff.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: For the most part, I mean, I think especially by Dark Knight Rises, I think he knew that the whole voicing was a bit ridiculous.
John Holt: Well, here's the thing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Or he must he must have known.
John Holt: In defense of the voice, the voice works in the first movie.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: Like, I think that the Batman voice really works. It's not exaggerated. There's like this excellent bit, you know, where Batman is kind of quite terrifying. Like, like he is like kind of a monster, you know, and the scarecrow, like,
John Holt: infects everyone with his gas or whatever and then people see him as an actual monster and i think that that's both of those aspects like feed off of each other so that by the point that like you get where that corrupt cop is like hoisted up by the side of the building after getting like a kebab and you know batman's there and he's like where are they standing on the ship and sort of thing that's actually scary and you get it you're like right this is why the criminals will learn to fear him because he is essentially a beast right that's when it works for some reason in the dark night the voice goes it's there but it's kind of th throatier growlier and it's a little bit misjudged
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: hmm hmm yeah yeah yeah borderline um unintelligible at times now i The thing is, like I'll give Nolan all the praise in the world, but I will also say, especially when it comes to Batman films, and to be honest, this is Uhvara generally, he he kind of plays, ah he or he likes to play around with sound of characters.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So, you know, Bane being the other obvious comparison.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So I, yeah, I kind of feel like, the stuff that make that he does that makes the character's voice very distinct, which let's be honest, it's probably quite difficult to make someone like Batman's voice distinct.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's, for all the praise we can give it, I think, yeah, the the the other side of that is it is, And this is kind of more of a sign of the times in which we live. But this is how I seem to judge a lot of stuff now is like how open to parody it is.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean, Bane's voice is parody to to death.
John Holt: Mm.
John Holt: the business
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But ah yeah, Batman's voice in the bail films is parody to death. we You kindly did one for us earlier. So it's very much I don't know. it's yeah It's not going to swing it for me, but it's definitely, it's it's an aspect that i I don't mind, but I think the more I think about it, the more it kind of annoys me. But again, how much is that down to bail? How much of that is down to Nolan? And for me, that's the big thing. um
John Holt: yeah it's a top like i really like as well but a lot of people didn't like this a lot of nerds online at the time were like oh this is bullshit batman wouldn't do that but i love the fact that in like the dark night rises at the beginning because of the events of the dark night
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and
John Holt: Like Bruce Wayne has essentially been in hiding for like eight years or something like that. And I loved that. And like the way he like just became like this, this broken down sort of man old before his time, like Howard Hughes just in a dressing gown hobbling about.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yeah.
John Holt: I thought that was really, really cool. I really liked that.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It was, they didn't do enough of that and he seemed to very quickly get back to his kind of normal Batman ways. But I agree, like it was, and that's something we've not massively seen with all the other ones until, yeah.
John Holt: no and you know what the funny thing is like thinking about those three movies and i actually think like the best um and it's not even a piece of bail acting but it's like this moment in dark knight rises where the cop uh played by joseph gordon levitt i think his character's name is blake john blake
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: he works out or he he's known for a while that Bruce Wayne is Batman and he goes to see him and he gives like this little speech about being an orphan and then like when Bruce Wayne came to visit the orphanage like he was putting on like the bravado like the clueless playboy thing but he does really well in a couple of moments in Batman Begins and and The Dark Knight
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm.
John Holt: And John Blake said something like, and and that was when I knew because you just carried this anger, like this anger that all of the orphans felt.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: And you could just see it. And and you I just think that's such a great moment. It says so much about that character. And yeah, it's kind of wonderful.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: um So.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But then it's a tricky one because an Affleck did
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: did a lot with the character that he I mean I presume he just came up with himself because let's be honest like on a lot of those films he wasn't given any I can't imagine he was given much direction and like you say like he maybe hadn't influenced over himself but I think yeah it's whether you you look at Bale who's like one great part of like a perfect machine or whether you look at Affleck is shining light in a river of turd.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's like which one is the most appealing to you? I mean, probably not the river of turd.
John Holt: Okay, so so here's the thing as well. The Dark Knight Returns is one of my favourite books of all time.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: like I love it. The animated version, if you can catch that, go go watch that. It's beautiful. So Ben Affleck's Batman as first brought to life by Zack Snyder is Frank Miller's Batman come to life. It is like a perfect representation in terms of like proportions, in terms of colors, in terms of everything of that that comic character, right? I think because of that, to be to be fair, the first two hours of Batman versus Superman
John Holt: every bit that Batman is on screen might be my favorite Batman ever committed to live -action film. It might be. I think the film is a disaster.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah here
John Holt: I think once you get to that Martha bit it completely falls apart apart from like Gal Gadot doing one of the most unintentionally hot things I've ever seen in the fight at the end.
John Holt: I won't go into it but anyway so That's the thing, like for your ideal Batman, Ben Affleck is is the man.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: But he's, again, he's just poorly served. I like the way they get around the voice thing, that's pretty cool. ah But it's kind of, I don't know, it just doesn't quite work.
John Holt: It's like a Batman that belongs in better material, you know much like George Clooney in a way.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Agreed, yeah. And this is where it comes into, are we saying best Batman is like a really good sum of its parts? Or if we're saying just purely based on, ah you know, performance alone, like, does this person embody what we think Batman should be?
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So it's a tricky one. I mean, ah yeah I was going to say 100 % Affleck, but now probably fifty fifty yeah I'm I'm wavering.
John Holt: Really? Are you wavering? Are you wavering? Okay.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like I say, social chameleon, I waver like I'm just a big coward. I don't know on this one.
John Holt: I um... Coming into this, I was kind of unsure which way I would swing, but having just talked about it and and remembered that scene from The Dark Knight Rises and, you know, bits and pieces here and there and how huge that Nolan trilogy was and how it just skyrocketed Nolan to, you know, the best director ever who makes money, you know, and and just, you know, considering The Dark Knight alone, like that middle movie,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm.
John Holt: I gotta go with Christian Bale on this one, even though, you know, aesthetically, I think he's, I dunno, he's almost too good looking to be Bruce Wayne, I dunno, and maybe too thin, but, you know, so a Fleck would win if I'm just going on a purely nerd, oh, that's 1986 Batman, sort of thing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. Mm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yeah.
John Holt: So I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna still give it to Bale.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, I'll give it to Baelas.
John Holt: What say, oh, you're gonna, you gonna
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, I guess I can, you know, when I'm on my deathbed, I can make peace with the fact that out of everybody who doesn't win this, he is probably going to be the top or there or there about.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So he's the best of the rest, which
John Holt: The best of the rest.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I kind of think, yeah, he's like, you know, he's he's a runner up but in his own like special league where it's just him and Val Kilmer and some other people.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So I think he's, yeah, he'll never be as iconic as the others, but yeah, just by pure performance, I guess.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And like you say, there there is the, I mean, he is, yeah, he is very buff, but and
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, i yeah i'm I'm happy to go with Christian Bale. I feel like I've talked about it in a way that suggests I am not as a big fan of the Bale films.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I am. I mean, for me, ah Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises. I mean, The Dark Knight Rises, I think, gets a bit of an unfair rep. And you know I think it's great as well.
John Holt: I think it's great.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: like And I think Bane, He is a very different villain from the Joker, but I like him just as much, to be honest.
John Holt: Oh man, you just reminded me of some even cooler stuff, you know, in like that Dark Knight Rises movie, when he is like, all broken in that like dungeon into better weather.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I was born in the dark. Oh, yeah, yeah. Your punishment must be more severe. Yeah.
John Holt: Oh, mate, that is so good.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Fucking great. And then he he gets in like a hammock and then fixes his back somehow. And I'm like, okay, that's cool.
John Holt: Oh god, I want to go watch that movie now.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: that That bit is, and then he's like, oh, when it's all done, like he's like, then I'll consider coming back and killing you. like And Tom Hardy, to be fair, holy crap, man, that guy can act.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: like He really is. you know I hope history remembers him as as a great, because when he when he gets the right role, he is something else.
John Holt: Yeah. He is.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah
John Holt: Yeah, I think he's not challenged enough at the moment. Anyway, it's not the Tom Hardy podcast. It's the Batman podcast.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: No.
John Holt: So that means then James, our finalists are Michael Keaton, George Clooney, and Christian Bao. However,
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: What?
John Holt: However, a wild card emerges from from the curtains at the back.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: There's a however?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: What? Where? My curtains? Shit! Get away from there!
John Holt: the steaming in with a metallic chair or rather shuffling in whilst looking at the floor well whilst Nirvana plays in the background is Robert Pattinson because we're talking about seven Batman we didn't have enough Batman for like four rounds so this is like your your debut if you like of Robert Pattinson's Batman
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: a
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: um like in this weird like interruption of this like three -way final like who's is he gonna take one of these people out is he is he is he better than Keaton is he better than Clooney is he better than Bale he's only had one film but it's like three days long so it feels like he's had more but um Ron Paterson where do we stand on this one because this is different
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah thank yeah exactly
John Holt: Man, the more you watch this movie, I've seen this about five times now.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: this.
John Holt: And now and I, yeah like every time, I'm a bit more taken with it.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: You see something new every time.
John Holt: I have to admit.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: this film i have seen i think i've seen it twice as you say it is a long one and i'm really as i get i don't know if it's age or patience or what the hell it is but i really struggle with a lot of films now two hours plus so it's a long one however what i will say is robert patinson is great in this but he's also one of these actors who I've grown to appreciate and post Twilight, I can't think of too many actors who've had this kind of a meteoric rise in, you know, he's just a kind of like he's just become like an indie darling, and you know, and
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I would urge anybody who's like what's this Robert Pattinson all about to watch The Lighthouse because that is just a masterclass in like these are just two dudes just acting at each other and Robert Pattinson is against a crazy Willem Dafoe and Robert Pattinson is as good as him in many ways so
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: But this isn't a lighthouse podcast. So I think he embodies Batman really well. It's got my favorite opening probably of any Batman film where the ah all the kind of crimes are being committed and the ah the various perpetrators are always taking a step back because they think, oh, I can see Batman in the shadow.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: and But then, you know, he can only be at one place, but then it's like, oh, it's the threat of Batman that's scaring people. For me, that's bang on.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And usually it's about the murder of his parents. So it's just awesome that they go kind of straight in there. um I think he gives the most kind of human performance of Bruce Wayne. I like the fact he's this kind of lanc -haired, kind of recluse, anti -social, like I think he, you know, if you want to see Robert Pattinson do like Moody, like don't bother with Twilight Watch, and I've got nothing against Twilight, watch this film because he is and Terrific.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And he's backed up by a very good cast. So Zoe Kravitz as Catwoman, I think is great. Obviously the ah Colin Farrell as the Penguin is actually awesome villain.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I haven't seen a TV series, but I'll ah yeah.
John Holt: Oh, you go watch it. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And apparently a TV series is great as well. So I actually I would say the Robert Pattinson one.
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I'll be interested to see what your opinion on this is. If you're a Batman, newbie or you're like where do i start or you haven't read the comics haven't i would say the i think it's just called the batman uh i would start with the batman starring robert pattinson i think i think it's great talk is sitting here talking now i think it's great yeah i think he's great
John Holt: Yeah.
John Holt: Hmm.
John Holt: Well, this is the thing. This is, this is different, but familiar. Like the the thing about this version of Batman is he's so broken.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yes, yeah yeah. yeah
John Holt: Like he is broken beyond belief. Like he is a broken person. Right. And it's interesting because that the second time you watch the movie. You realize he's actually only out of the bat suit and playing Bruce Wayne for about 15 minutes of like a three hour film.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: hmm yeah true.
John Holt: And he's in practically every scene.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: hmm.
John Holt: Now, what I love about this film is they really go hard on the detective stuff.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah agreed that's a big a big plus yeah yeah and i do like the fact that when he's uh that when he's in the house of that person that got murdered and he's like going around talking to gordon looking at evidence that all the police are like afraid of him and think he's a freak which i just think is
John Holt: It's basically Batman and Commissioner Gordon, um, you know, following the zodiac killer, basically with all this mop shenanigans going on at the same time.
John Holt: Yeah. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah Yeah, that's a wordless as well. I think it's yeah, tremendous.
John Holt: Yeah and it's it's weird in that like I think this version of Batman owes a lot to like more recent versions of the character in the comics but at the same time the like opening 20 minutes with like the drop heads and like Gotham which is basically filmed in like Glasgow like looking like as drab and as grim as it it like they went super realistic grim with it like and
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: it's it's still got a lot of that like frank miller comic in it like arguably more than the surroundings of the afleck version and you know like the the batman suit the batman outfit i love it from the neck down like if you actually know your comics are through and things like that right the actual bat insignia on his chest is two parts of the gun that killed his parents like molded into that shape
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: that's cool.
John Holt: They don't mention it, but they mentioned it in sort of like the promotional stuff for the movie about a year before it came out.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay, that's cool.
John Holt: I don't like the helmet. I do not enjoy it. like food like when When he's just standing standing still, it looks weird.
John Holt: like The ears are in the back of the helmet and Pattinson's got kind of a flat face from the side, so it doesn't quite work for me.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yeah.
John Holt: but I yeah i i really ah ah can't wait for the sequel and they get their finger out and make it. um It's going to be interesting because I don't see how you can keep that level of hardcore depression in that character going for two or three more movies.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm, well...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah...
John Holt: I don't know.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean, are they gonna make a sequel, though? That's a... I...
John Holt: Oh, they are. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mmkay.
John Holt: Yeah, there's a bit of confusion in Chit Chat Online ah about whether it's going to fold into James Gunn's new DC universe.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hope... Ooh...
John Holt: But they're definitely making a sequel.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I'd rather it didn't, to be honest, but okay.
John Holt: Yeah, me too. I'd rather it stand alone.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see whether Barry Kyogen comes back as Joker, because obviously it's hinted at at the end of the film quite strongly, but yeah, I mean, you know, times pass and people aren't available and stuff like that, so.
John Holt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah Yeah, okay, yeah, but yeah, I'm glad we're on the same page for this. this is a
John Holt: I mean the the important thing is whilst a depression bat is throwing the chair swipes around, does he hit any of our finalists and take them out of the running?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He takes one out, I would say, quite comfortably.
John Holt: Yeah I think he takes one out but who? Because i I've got my eye on someone.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah i think like I've given him a stay of execution, but I think, George, you're for the chopping block, my friend.
John Holt: I agree.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: Yeah. ah So Pattinson absolutely brains George Clooney.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: Clooney falls down, capable around his head, pants around his ankles. I don't know why.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Kerbs stomping him until there's just a um a mush, a pulp left on the side of the Gotham pavement.
John Holt: Yeah. Yeah. Triple ah Triple H runs in looking all concerned with his suit on now because he's the chairperson of WWE and he's got like a neck brace and a trolley and he puts ah he puts um Clooney in the neck brace and on the trolley and he gets wheeled out.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And then he gives him a pedigree.
John Holt: yeah Outside for for embarrassing ever everyone.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Just at the hospital entrance, he's like, and stay there.
John Holt: Wow.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And by the way, you haven't got insurance. ah Yeah.
John Holt: OK, so we're at the final. We're we're at the final. The ah the three way no holds barred pins count anywhere match, which is at the end at the end of the card, and it is Michael Keaton, Robert Pattinson and Christian Bale.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Whoa.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, Helen's cell, triple threat.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: so with this one are we choosing the best of three or do you want to eliminate one and then yes yeah he's a special referee george is a special referee
John Holt: Okay, what we need to do, this is a knockout round, okay? George runs back in and he pulls someone under the ropes, right?
John Holt: And takes them out and they walk, they go fighting backstage through the curtain. But like, who does, who does, who does?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: So he's just been pedigreed.
John Holt: George, yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He comes back in. He's like, oh, my neck.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And then like.
John Holt: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's fine, you know. um But who does George pull out by the boots, man? Pull out of the ring.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I think you have to. Probably take Robert Pattinson, I would say.
John Holt: who Really?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I think just because Michael Keaton and Christian Bale ah so strong acting wise and and the most iconic. ah
John Holt: Okay, I'll tell you what.
John Holt: I'm going to agree with you there. I hate agreeing with you because I hate you.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I know, I know, I know, I hate it too. I hate having opinions of, I just, it just makes me all cold.
John Holt: But but um I agree and I'll tell you why I agree purely for the fact that Keaton has three movies to his name under the cowl.
John Holt: He would have had four if Batgirl actually got released, funnily enough.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. I see it as two, but you know, it's splitting hairs, yeah.
John Holt: And Belle's got three.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Definitely three, yeah.
John Holt: So Pattinson's got one movie. So by that rationale, he's the less experienced young upstart.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm.
John Holt: George Clooney pulls him out, just absolutely like does him.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. And it's a great film, but I mean, Christian Bale has two films that are better than Pattinson's and Keaton. Mm. Has, hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: maybe doesn't have one, but yeah, it doesn't change anything. like you know Michael Keaton might be you know not be able to do a figure four leg lock or something, but he can still get you with the Stone Cold Stunner.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's simple, it's effective. Why are we making so many wrestling references?
John Holt: yeah top rope yeah it was basically over as soon as it started for patterns and and we're left with the final two the old leather horse
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: you know it's just So Robert Pattinson goes over the the top rope head first, into the mat, the outside, and yeah.
John Holt: and and the more armour -based realistic suit of Christian Bale.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Horse armor, okay.
John Holt: One of them can turn their head. The other one cannot.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Ah, yes, that is true.
John Holt: hello
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean, if we look at Keaton's suit, certainly for the ah first film, it's limited.
John Holt: See, this is the thing. Alright, okay, now we've got down to it, right? I'm wavering. I'm wavering on my favorite because Keaton, Michael Keaton is freaking cool.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He is, he is.
John Holt: Like that Batman is freaking cool. I mean, Christian Bale's cool, but Keaton is more cool.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And he was the first, yeah.
John Holt: He just has something.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And he created the role, right?
John Holt: I'm certain I don't know what.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: as Yeah. Je neux croix m 'leur, yeah.
John Holt: Yeah. Yeah. So what do we think?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Well, I think, see, on the one hand, you go Keaton, like, for lack of a better phrase, like, invented the modern Batman, but Christian Bale refined it.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: um And I do forget with Christian and Bale as well, like, the scene where He's interrogated to interrogating the Joker, or to be honest, any scene with the Joker in The Dark Knight is like a masterclass.
John Holt: Yep. Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And bearing in mind Heath Ledger's...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, one of the best actors of his generation, I'd say. And Bale is... I think Bale was a great actor as well. they're But they're all just great. Why can't we all just give them a big kiss and send them on their way?
John Holt: yeah
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: um
John Holt: I miss the days when like Christian Bale was taking big swings though.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: Like, like American Psycho is in incredible performance.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: American Psycho.
John Holt: And then the Machinist is an an incredible performance.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. Rain of fire.
John Holt: Even like a rate of fire, ah even something like American Hustle, where he's actually like wearing a fat suit and he's just like trying stuff, you know?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Great film.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's a bit avant garde.
John Holt: And like when he played Dick Cheney as well, he's like really good at it, you know?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, the Machinists. I can't remember if you mentioned mention that. But yeah, like,
John Holt: Yep. Yep. terrifying just for his performance and what it took out of him and...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah that's the thing and he yeah he's definitely the more physical actor i guess of the two like he more strongly kind of emote with his with a facial expression than Keaton can but yeah obviously you do you do have the limitations of the suit as well you know the i mean
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean, if if i had to if I had to pick one, which I guess by the nature of this podcast I need to, then I'd say Bale edges it, but I really think on his day, Keaton, I might wake up tomorrow and go, it's Keaton, but I think Bale
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And I think, you know, again, I hate to keep bringing this up, but he does benefit from the fact that he's three, like, very strong films, you know, ah throw another superlative in there, because why stop now?
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like, it's one of the best trilogies ever. It's it's just so, you know, I think A Dark Knight Rises has its flaws, but it's still a great kind of ender.
John Holt: Hmm.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: And Batman, the first Batman film is great. Batman Returns is also, I think, good. I wouldn't necessarily put it as great. Yeah, I think I've got to give it to Dale, which is crazy because I was 10 minutes ago working out whether him or Affleck was the best one, so.
John Holt: yeah i i mean it's it's a lot tougher than i thought it was would be i just cuz i don't know there's something about michael keaton where he's just effortlessly cool whereas bail has to put on a voice yeah i mean they both put on voices but one of them is slightly more exaggerated that's true actually he has not he's probably coming though he's gonna be something
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: a Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: That's true. Yeah. And also Christian Bale hasn't done a film taking a piss out of the fact he was Batman.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Which, yeah, to be fair, I feel like that Terminator moment aside, I think he's quite kind of self -aware.
John Holt: Imagine if ah Christian Bale never did anything like that but then he and instead he did like an old man Logan take on his character in equilibrium.
John Holt: Old man equilibrium.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I would watch the shit out of that. old practical
John Holt: Oh I would too. I saw that movie in the cinema. It was the best night out ever.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's a great film. I was talking to some friends recently who said it was terrible and I was like, it is great.
John Holt: Absolutely not. I hope you're no longer friends with them, because...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh, at least
John Holt: Anyone says that in my presence, they get a finger in the eye.
John Holt: Nope!
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: he said I had just pluck that bad boy out.
John Holt: Shall we give it to Christian Bale then?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. is that is that where youre Is that where your head's at?
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay.
John Holt: On a pure...
John Holt: Sort of... material... consistency...
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, he has the most going for him.
John Holt: I don't know.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: He's got most of the elements for Batman and the films themselves.
John Holt: Yeah.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: like Okay.
John Holt: But let me, okay. So Christian Bell holds the belt aloft whilst he collapses onto his knees, sweat just dripping off him.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: If I knew there was a some sort of sound effect that would appropriately, you can just play, oh, I was hoping you played the drum again, just one.
John Holt: Yeah. Um, there isn't, I'm afraid. Uh,
John Holt: oh There you go. So ah michael Michael Keaton being class act all the way.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm.
John Holt: Pat's bell on the shoulder hugs him.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah.
John Holt: But there's something we ain't talked about and it's just like literally came into my brain while we were talking.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Oh no.
John Holt: Who has the best Batmobile?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Uh, Michael Keaton, I think, I would say.
John Holt: Oh.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Cause the, the, the bail one, it's all like fairly sleek and modern and yes.
John Holt: The tumbler.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah. And it's got the cool like bat bike and stuff, but the the key, the Keaton one is like iconic.
John Holt: Yeah.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Like I did various toys of that. So yeah, I think that's.
John Holt: Yeah. I mean, the Kilmer one looks like a plastic toy, like being pushed around.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: And I think the Clooney ones are convertible, isn't it? If I remember correctly, it's not even got a roof!
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's just like a Nissan Micro or something with a...
John Holt: It's like loads of kids at the top of buildings in Gotham just spitting on Batman. but
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Yeah, to be fair, if in your universe, Batman was George Clooney, yeah, you probably would like just fucking harangue him in the street.
John Holt: Yeah. I got to say though, I actually think the patterns in Batmobile is the best.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: ah Yes, and do you know what...
John Holt: Because it's just a car.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: yeah yeah and actually Pattinson has the best like scene with like that like chase with him and penguin is and Yeah, here it is.
John Holt: That. mean Yeah. But that introduction to the Batmobile in The Batman, right, I watched that in IMAX. And that is one of the best cinema moments ever. Like you hear it off screen go, like that, the whole room shook. It was so loud. And everyone was like, it's gonna go off. And then you see like, the flames come out. and It's like, yes.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: he's He's complete. He's a complete person now. Yeah.
John Holt: yeah it's just like a souped up muscle card but it is effective man it works yeah all right so that's basically the end of the card for the night uh everyone's filing out but we like to well we say we like but we're gonna based on like previous experience where
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: It's fucking great.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Mm.
John Holt: Our preambles to our last podcast were all doom and gloom because the world was collapsing over the last five years. We're going to change things up. We're going to end this podcast every episode on one good thing from the past week that we've both done, seen, played, what have you.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Hmm.
John Holt: We've got one sentence to do this. So James, I'm going to go first. So you get a flavor of what I'm talking about.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Okay, I'll take some notes. Take some notes, yeah.
John Holt: Best thing for me over the last week, teasing vanilla Earl Grey sachets from South Korea. It's a drink. It's a fantastic drink. If you've got a velvetyzer sticking your velvetyzer, it will change your life. James, go. One good thing.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I cooked fajitas last week. They were very tasty.
John Holt: Okay. All right.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: on I enjoyed it.
John Holt: Well, not what I thought you were going to say, but Absolutely, that counts.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I think after some of the nonsense I spewed today, I was like, I'll keep it, I'll keep it, keep it simple. You know me, I'm not a waffler, I like to keep it nice and no, yeah, no reputation whatsoever, yes.
John Holt: Absolutely. So that's going to end it for this first inaugural episode of Media Mega Rumble. um Look for us on Facebook and Blue Sky. I don't know when I'll be setting that account up. Hopefully by the time you listen to this, that account will be there. You can follow our goings on there. You can follow me at bugoutbackwards .bsky. whatever it is, social maybe.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: i You follow me. at over availabl sort stuff i I am borderline untraceable.
John Holt: Yeah, I'm there. I'm not on X anymore. I'm not doing that. I have standards. So that'll do it. Where are you? You're not anywhere, are you?
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: I mean, if you want to add me on Facebook, then please do feel free to add me on Facebook.
John Holt: Yep. Everyone at James on Facebook.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Add me. Yeah. I mean, yeah.
John Holt: Wonderful, okay, that's gonna do it. We'll see you back here soon for another couple of rounds of the Media Mega Rumble. Goodbye.
OOOOOL' BRIGTOWN: Goodbye.
