Transcript
Speaker: who the Oscars went to, but should they have gone there? Welcome to And the Oscars Should Have Gone To, a place where we discuss, debate, and decide certain Best Picture races from the Academy Awards, and then reveal who we think should have been awarded the Best Picture Oscar that year.
Speaker: Maybe our Best Picture pick was clearly the movie everybody loved that year. Maybe it was an influential work that filmmakers still discuss years later. Or maybe it's just the movie that everyone re-watched the year after year As always, we recommend that you folks at home watch each nominee so you can make your own determination and then let us know how wrong we are. And with that, we thank the Academy. Let's start the show.
Speaker: And welcome back to And the Oscar Should Have Gone To. I am here with Dylan. Say hi. Hi. Rob, did you want to say something? um Hi, everybody. Thanks for coming back.
Speaker: And hello, I'm Glennis. um And we are spread across the country. So we are talking about the movies from 1971 this year. um the French Connection, which is an action thriller directed by William Friedkin and starring Gene Hackman, Rory Scheider, and Fernando Ray about New York Police Department detectives Jimmy Popeye Doyle and Buddy Cloudy Russo in pursuit of wealthy French heroine smuggler Alain Charnier.
Speaker: A Clockwork Orange is a dystopian crime film written, produced, and directed by Stanley Kubrick that employs disturbing and violent themes to comment on psychiatry, juvenile delinquency, youth gangs, and other social, political, and economic subjects in a dystopian, near-future Britain.
Speaker: Fiddler on the Roof is a period musical produced and directed by Norman Jewison, set early 20th century Imperial Russia that centers on Tevye, played by Chaim Topol, a poor Jewish milkman who is faced with the challenge of marrying off his five daughters amidst the growing tension of his shtetl.
Speaker: The Last Picture Show is coming-of-age drama directed by Peter Bogdanovich, set in a small town in northern Texas in the early 1950s with an ensemble cast of Timothy Bottoms, Jeff Bridges, Ellen Burstyn, Ben Johnson, Cloris Leachman, and Sybil Shepard.
Speaker: And finally, Nicholas and Alexander is a British epic historical drama directed by Franklin J. Schaffner that tells the story of the last ruling Russian monarch, Tsar Nicholas II of Russia, and his wife, the Tsarina,
Speaker: from 1904 until their deaths in 1918. um You know, before we jump into this year, I just want to pause and um read a message from one of our listeners.
Speaker: don't know if we want to say his name or not, his first name, but... Glenn. Glenn, yes. Uncle Glenn out here said... You, Glennis, didn't like Amadeus, which was absolutely flawless.
Speaker: I agree with Rob, even though he says saw weird. How do you get an R in that word? Well, Glenn, that is way that is the way people from Massachusetts, specifically the Boston area, say the word I saw.
Speaker: You saw it. But, Glenn, I couldn't disagree with you more. I think that Amadeus still sucks, but we thank you for your support of Rob's opinion. Yeah, I think, I don't know, Glenn, but, I mean, he's obviously a highly intelligent individual.
Speaker: yeah Thank you. miss like So we're just going to jump in and start talking about, let's start with Nicholas and Alexandra. um Let's see. Rob, do you want to start with this movie? What did you think? Sure. Sure.
Speaker: um First of all, I was expecting a much different movie. I had never seen it before, you know, back in the day, what was 1971, little too young anyway. But this was my first time seeing it, and I was expecting a much different movie because of the title.
Speaker: I thought it was going to be kind of a period piece love story, and I hadn't read anything about it. I didn't know anything about it. I just watched it cold. And it was, I think it should have been called, like, The Last Tsar or something like that because it was about the last Russian Tsar, which was kind of ah during the times of the this revolution where he was – forced to kind of abdicate and give up his czarness because he was very very unpopular. very The people disagreed with him. He got them into wars and didn't know how to fight them.
Speaker: Very out of touch, right? Yeah, he was out of touch with ah with the people. And, you know, good family man. um You know, his wife supported him, Alexandra. I mean, we know her name throughout the movie because of the title, but kind of an odd title, like I said.
Speaker: I think you know watching this movie, was it was on the longer side. it was They had an intermission. I think the second half of the movie was much better than the first.
Speaker: Wait, why do you say that? Why do you think the first half was than the first half? happened in the second half. You know what i mean? To look at it kind of kind of lightly. um You know, skip ahead to the ending was, even though you know it's coming, it's still shocking.
Speaker: I'm not going to give that away. but Well, it it's history. If someone has no history, that's their problem. I guess. They all die. Anastasia screamed in vain.
Speaker: Yeah, they did. They got, they got, it you should all know this from history. That's all we're going to say. The children too. And which was, you know, they say you don't, you know, kill pet to animals or children in movies. But they, you know, it is a true story. So they did in this movie.
Speaker: um Can't say that I really like cared about many of the characters in this movie. Oh, really? Yeah. I know. i just it it was just It was like a history movie that i I knew what I wanted to know already about it. I didn't really need to know more about their lives. Did it remind you of like when you when you sometimes watch the History Channel, it's like a reenactment?
Speaker: Yeah. like it' a like Are they acting or are they just like standing around? You I mean? Right, right. Yeah. they They just, you know, it was it was tough to tell.
Speaker: But the i don't I don't think the acting was, I mean, I like Tom Baker in his role, former Doctor Who. um Yeah. Other than that, I didn't really, nothing really jumped out at me. and made me ever want to see this movie again.
Speaker: i don't think I'll ever see this movie again. i lost interest several times during it. And surprise, surprise, I will not be picking it for my Best Picture winner. And I don't think you guys will either. Spoiler! Do you remember who the director was, Rob?
Speaker: Did you catch who the director was? i Was it Lean? No. Oh, Jesus. No. Oh, yeah. Franklin Schaffner, who directed and you're not going believe it. Patent and Planet of the Apes.
Speaker: Oh, geez. OK, I guess. Yeah, I know. Like, how do you come up with this? ah Yeah. Virgin piece. Wow. Yeah. So i will I don't recommend this movie. If you if you um have nothing else to do, go for it.
Speaker: But that's my thoughts. If you have nothing else to do, read a book. yeah you're gonna be a lot of a lot of weeping in this uh in this episode um dylan think we got a we got a sense of maybe what you feel about this movie but do you have anything to add to what rob but rob said no it's a big period piece that doesn't work on that level and it's supposed to have like rob when you said david lean again it aspires towards that but it's just so dull um It's too long. And like you said, oh, is there a romance?
Speaker: Well, no, they're not there's no courtship. They're already together. So it's not like there's a romance. you know No romance. It's almost like a family drama. But you know part of the problem is they probably weren't interesting people to begin with.
Speaker: um I'm sure most of this, well, obviously, almost all of it's highly fictionalized for what they said in their bedrooms or what they said behind closed doors. Right. Right. With all that, what ah what an interesting period in history where you have the end of an empire while other empires are ending, the end of the czarship, the Russian Revolution coming, which sets off all this communist revolution. It's almost like one this period in history deserves a good movie, and it got one. and It was called Reds.
Speaker: Well, kind of. And then you have Rasputin thrown in. It's like you have like so many great ingredients. That guy needs a movie. That guy needs a biopic. He does. He was really interesting. And they kind of hinted at it. But yeah, I think there's a lot going on and and that he still didn't put together, which is, again, disappointing because he did do Patton and Planet the Apes, which are like, oh, these are great movies.
Speaker: So I don't know what happened. It was just such it's just a big misfire from start to finish. just don't know what happened. Right? I mean, you're like, oh, the guy did Patton and Planet the Apes? Oh, I'm ready. It's like, oh no. so Yeah. People are executed. This is a...
Speaker: a very fascinating time in history. No, just a snooze fest. Well, I don't have three hours now. Yeah. I don't, I don't have a lot to add to that, uh, to what you both said. It's a snooze fest.
Speaker: However, actually I don't have have much to add to how much it's kind of not watchable, but I will make a case for it. If you have an upcoming test, on Tsarist Russia, and you need to know some broad strokes, maybe this is the movie for you.
Speaker: I will say a few things. I'll check my schedule. Right. I think there are a few things i did that lingered for me about this movie. Again, not necessarily recommending it as something to watch.
Speaker: don't unless you really want to know a lot about that time, but yeah I don't even know if you're going to get a lot about that time. But what i did like about it is that they really showed how clueless this family was, this ruling family was, uh, to, to what was going on in Russia. The people are suffering.
Speaker: um and, and they're, they're taking kind of a, let them eat cake attitude, You know, like, what are they complaining about? I must take care of them. And I appreciated that, that that came through.
Speaker: um and they had a real patronizing attitude, right? Like, they're our children, and I'm their father. This is my house, Russia. Exactly, exactly. And they need to do what I say. um So you can definitely understand, if you ever wanted to know the reason, the rationale for the Russian Revolution, I mean, this is, it's not like it was great before.
Speaker: So, but other than that, that's a lot. Like, I think you could read a book. Yeah. but get better information. And that yeah, the acting was wooden and the the children were annoying and it didn't really get across. Like Rasputin is such an interesting character, but it really didn't get across enough about Rasputin and why he's interesting. So really, again, biopic for him, please. um yeah Yeah. There's not much to say more about this. um I really love big historical dramas, but I'm realizing that maybe I only like
Speaker: merchant ivory historical so yeah this movie is uh you know zero to ten recommended don't don't watch it okay last picture show Dylan we will start with you have you seen this movie before and if so uh what did you think of it this time I saw it in my 20s and I didn't really get it but now that I'm older I understand it better And, ah you know, side note, having lived in a small Texas town, it's like, oh, shit, that shit's true. But I think it's universal for any small town. So um it's very on Peter Bogdanovich, although I guess that's not true. He tends to do. What are you comparing it to? I'm not. Well, he did like he ah did Paper Moon, which was sort of a um ah road comedy from the 30s. He did What's Up Doc, which was supposed to be a screwball comedy.
Speaker: um Even Mask was kind of a hard drama in a sense. So I think he does genre pieces. So this is very unusual. It's um it was very much like an independent movie. At the very least, you see all these young stars who are pretty much unknown at the time. Jeff Bridges, Randy Quaid, Sybil Shepard,
Speaker: um I think Cloris Leachman had been kicking around, but knowing who she was. And I've just forgotten Ellen Burstyn. Yeah, this had to be one of her early roles, certainly. who's Again, I've forgotten the actress, but outstandingly outstanding.
Speaker: yeah um It's just very interesting. I think it's very universal. ah Did we determine it's after world War II? Yeah, it' set fifty s yeah yeah so it's the the Korean War. Ah, that's right. The complete Korean War. That's right.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, because he goes off. You know, it could be any small town. The young guys, some of them want to get out, and but some are quite comfortable being local heroes. ah The older people give a sense of having been stuck there and and are stuck there. And they all have, as Thoreau said, quiet lives of desperation, you know, or is it lives of quiet desperation? I forget. but Yeah, I think the second one.
Speaker: They're all vaguely unhappy and and just kind of stuck in And now I've been around more. It's like, oh, that's very true to life for a lot of small town of ah America where people just sort of stuck and they amuse themselves with drinking and and fucking and racing cars and getting the fight nothing else to do.
Speaker: um So now I appreciate a little bit more having some more life under my my belt. And yeah, the pacing is really slow. So if you don't like that, that's totally understandable. But it is it is almost like a foreign movie, like and like a French or Italian movie. It's so it's so slowly paced and so interior.
Speaker: But this time around, I really liked it a lot, much more in the first time. And again, I'm chalking that up to not the movie, but my perspective on things. So I think I related more to people like... oh, Ellen Burstyn. I'm like, why don't you just leave?
Speaker: It's like, no, I'm stuck here. you don understand. Now I've seen that. I've seen like, oh, people get stuck they just don't know how to get out and they just stay with it just because it's easier to stay with it. That's nothing I understood as a young person.
Speaker: It's like, oh no, i've I've been around life and now like, oh, people get stuck and they may not like their lives. They're like, well, what else else am I supposed to do? It's like, oh, that's really... I think the first time I saw it, I was angry. Like, fuck these people.
Speaker: Second time, like, oh, i'm very I feel pity for them. Like, I feel sorry for them. Like, oh, no, you're stuck and you don't know how to get out. You're like a fly caught in a web. um So it's not for everybody. It's very slow and interior. um But as you you surprised yourself or it surprised you because you ended up liking it.
Speaker: Yeah, I did like it. I think Ben Johnson, always underrated. He got his Oscar for this. He played Sam the Lion, the character Sam Lion. Veteran Western actor, so awesome. He's always great in everything.
Speaker: and So I was glad to see him as the kind of the old, wise voice of wisdom. Right. This kind of mystical figure, you know. by what Rob, what did you think? um It's funny. I compare this movie a little bit to the to the Big Chill Oh, wait yeah. In a way, it's it's kind of like an ensemble piece with actors about the same age with a couple of they have a couple of older characters like Ellen Burson's and Cloris Leachman's. But, um you know, I i like I liked it.
Speaker: It was a little slow. I agree with a lot of what you said. Um, I like how even, even though i'm not quite a big fan of early fifties country music, that's strictly what was in here. And it was, um, least it was Hank Williams. Can't argue with that. Mostly Hank Williams got the lefty for sale. Yeah. Things like that. So they, and they would, they would hear the music in the movie. There's a term for that. and I forget what it is, but they they actually heard the music in the movie and, uh, it wasn't just playing in the background.
Speaker: Um, set in the 50s kind of looked like it was shot in the 40s. It was hump black and white. um I guess Bogdanovich and Orson Welles were roommates together.
Speaker: Really? Yeah, and and Orson Welles was the one who suggested it's in black and white. Go figure. It really worked. It worked for Citizen Kane. You can do it, Peter. Do it in black and white. Do what you want.
Speaker: But it may seem like ah like a documentary almost where it's like, oh, this really seems very real. Yeah. It made it feel like it was being shot in the fifties. Yeah. And I thought he was pretty good to and like, it really mimicked the tone of movies from that time.
Speaker: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And it was nice seeing people like Sybil Shepard and Jeff Bridges and and Randy Quaid so young and kind of, uh, you know, just starting out in their careers and, you know, some of them had better careers than others.
Speaker: but you know, it's we all know who they are. um Everything kind of takes place as though the world is ending because the town is dying. i think they do some ah desperate things, but some things, some they make some choices as if, you know, there weren't our last few years of, of of living on earth and and this is what I'm going to choose because this town is dying. you know so yeah The last picture show. i think like last And that's why it was called. yeah it was It was kind of a double meaning that was the last movie because the theater was closing and like all their decisions are kind of like the last picture show type of decisions.
Speaker: Did you like it, Rob? i i'm I'm not even sure if I'm getting the sense that you liked it. Did you like the movie? I mildly liked it. often Thank you for bringing me to the point. um I, I did. I, actually I actually, I'd kind of like to see it again because I, because I had had't only seen it once and I want to look at it from a different point of view than than the first time I saw it.
Speaker: The first time I saw it recently, I didn't really know what to think or what to expect. And now, now that I know what's going to happen, I'd kind of like to see the performances again. um cause we, you know, we care about the characters, but we don't necessarily want to want to be them.
Speaker: Um, So I think that was kind of an important thing. I mildly liked it. I'd slightly recommend it. I do want to see it again. um I go from there. What do you think, Clintus?
Speaker: um What did I think of this movie? I think I tried to watch this a long time ago. Maybe in my early 30s, maybe in my twenty s I'm not sure. I have a vague memory of watching a black and white film that I found incredibly interesting.
Speaker: I have to say the word. um And ah so I was not looking forward to watching this. And then we watched it. And sort of like Dylan, I was pleasantly surprised. Like, there's some there's some substance to this movie that will really resonate, I think. Even if you've never lived in a small town, I think it really hits on...
Speaker: what it's like to be in a small dying town specifically. There are many small towns that are vibrant and doing great and fine. I happen to have lived as a child in a small dying town of less than 2000 people.
Speaker: And let me tell you, this really gets the atmosphere right. I think, um, I really generally don't like watching movies in black and white. That's just an, an aesthetic, uh, choice for me, but I think it really, really worked in this. So I, I ended up really liking that aspect of it.
Speaker: And it was amazing to watch Sybil Shepard acting. Like, i didn't know she could act. um Listen, I like like Moonlighting. Did that require a ton of acting? It did not. So I think it's fun to see... It's broad screwball comedy. Right. It's fun to see all these kind of new and upcoming actors.
Speaker: ah Jeff Bridges, Sybil Shepard, or new at the time. Randy Quaid. It's weird seeing him as a young person. And I think that it was not actually...
Speaker: dull it wasn't uh it was just slow but not so painfully slow as to make it unwatchable and think that's deliberate right to match the idea of being in this town everything is like oh nothing's moving everything's the same it's black and white it's it's kind of centered around this main character um timothy bottoms the name of the character i've forgotten even though i read it this morning Anyway, it's sort of centered around him and and how he's perceiving things.
Speaker: And things are changing around him. And he's got a crush on the prettiest girl in town, Sybil Shepard. And she's sort of got designs on getting up and out of there. She doesn't want to become her mother. ah She's J.C. and he's Sonny Crawford. Thank you. Sonny, yeah. Yeah, Sonny.
Speaker: And, you know, it's sort of, is there a big love story there? Not really, actually. It's not a love story. It's not a romance. It's actually great that that people cycle through relationships in this and there's some punches at the end like, oh, that's interesting. that You know, coincidences, you might work it out before before you get to the end. But, yeah, I think I would recommend this movie.
Speaker: Yeah. And I'm surprised that I would recommend it, actually. ah usually don't like slow movies, but I kind of like this one. Can add also, I think he did something, I don't know how novel it was at the time, but compared to, say, American Graffiti, you know people in the 50s said, fuck, and they like to get drunk, and they like to get laid.
Speaker: So there was always like, oh, it's the 50s. It was like so, like, this, like, who was it? So I like that. And, it's based, as Rob said, Larry McMurtry, who lived through this. It's like, no, they say fuck in this movie. they're trying to get drunk.
Speaker: Sybil Shepard's like, I just want to lose my virgin virginity. Will you fuck me so I can just get it over with so for the next guy? like You know what I mean? it's like I like that. It showed like people were as realistic back then as they are now. right They just didn't show it. They showed Leave the Beaver. was like, well, no, that's not. That's how it's different from a movie that was actually made in the fifty s is that it's it was realistic to the time.
Speaker: we know that that is how people behaved. It's just they weren't showing that. Yeah, it looks like a movie you would see in the 50s, but it it is realistic. It's actually what people were like back then. um Yeah. And if I can have on one thing, I watching this movie, we're talking about how it's a little slow and plotting.
Speaker: I didn't like it so much when I was watching it. I liked it more the more I thought about it after it was over. Yeah. yeah It's interesting, right? Fair. Yeah. Yeah, it is fair. Some movies are like, wait a minute. I'm really thinking about this a lot. Maybe I did like it. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Yeah.
Speaker: So. We're going to talk about Fiddler on the Roof. So it's a musical. I'm just saying it's a musical because I don't like musicals. But our big complaint about musicals is often that you can't sing sing the music.
Speaker: But you will know ah most of these songs and you will be able to sing them. I mean, even if you've never seen this movie, which I had never seen, you can at least sing all the songs. You know, um hey, even Gwen Stefani did a cover of Yeah, she did. Yeah. wonder If I were a rich man. Yeah. Yeah. yeah um So I'm biased. I've got a, I've got a handicap here or something because I don't like musicals and I think they're silly.
Speaker: ah But this one is more watchable than Nicholas and Alexandra. I mean, that's not a musical, but as a movie, I think it's still more watchable. I was looking forward to watching it to add to my, you know, knowledge of the canon of, of great movies or movies that people like in general. Yeah.
Speaker: ah But overall, i got to say, it's just fine. It's fine. a lot i think I think you're going to love this if you're like somebody from New York who loves musicals. um I think that's why you would love this movie. Otherwise, it i just feel, going back to our original premise, which is that musicals are a little bit silly.
Speaker: And this feels a little bit silly. But it's also like a very heavy topic, which is, um you know, there's a... Also Tsarist Russia. Right, Tsarist Russia is a Jewish community and they're like suffering pogroms all the time. that the right word? Yeah.
Speaker: So I think if you like musicals, you probably like this. ah You know, again, the acting isn't really required. Great acting isn't required in musicals, but the acting is fine. Yeah.
Speaker: but glen So, Glenis, though, being quote-unquote objective, for a musical, for its genre, hu do you think it excels? you think it's mediocre? i think it's, like right in the middle. Like, i when I think of musicals that I love, it's... Maybe it's slightly above the middle, actually.
Speaker: So I don't know. I think that, but it's got, it, you know, again, there's an interesting story there. um but I, I don't like musicals. This is, this is my handicap.
Speaker: So I mean, Rob, do you like musicals in general? I can't remember. Let me ask you one thing. yeah Do you like musicals?
Speaker: Well, no, no, no. Um, I, I, I'm, I, it's not a genre that I really, um, kind of gravitate towards no um but i i as far as the musical goes this is right up there this to me i mean you can't beat the music it's just these songs will get stuck in your head for days afterwards and it's not an annoyance it's kind of like you know you kind of like bop into these songs like later on um the you know, the fact that it's a happy story, a sad story, a silly story, a serious story. It's, it's set on Desirous Russia, but it's, um there' ah there's a fiddler who's on the roof.
Speaker: yeah yeah And you wonder, like, you know, why, what does that mean? What does that ever metaphor mean? And it's supposed to, represent the the balancing act that Jewish people have to live through. Like they're fiddling, so your arm is moving, you're wiggling, but you have to balance on a roof and you have this, some bad things can happen and you're probably going to fall off like anti-Semitism happens.
Speaker: But that's the musical, it's a musical metaphor that's that's used for their plight, I should say. um i think I mean, I can't find too many faults in this movie. I think it was a near perfect movie. It's based upon the play.
Speaker: It's not a very complicated plot, but despite that, the musical is very powerful. It's powerful for a musical. It's not lighthearted throughout the whole thing as you would expect a musical to be.
Speaker: um The memorable songs, the moral lessons that it gives have survived, which still resonate today with with Jewish people, especially. And then another movie that a documentary was made of, a pretty good documentary in 2021 about bringing Fiddler and on the roof to the big screen and what it took and interviews with the cast. And I think, yeah, most of the cast is in the in the documentary, except for the wife, Goldie, who she died of...
Speaker: She died of cancer, I think, a couple of years after the movie was made. So she wasn't in it. But the rest of them were. ah So I love this movie and I highly recommend it. And I think it's it it should be it should be required viewing for for for anyone who loves movies.
Speaker: That's my thought. Dylan? Yeah, I agree. It's kind of in the canon. And for musicals like Glennis, I have a very low tolerance for musicals, but mostly because they're not like this. So the songs are singable.
Speaker: You can so you can yeah sing them. So that's the that's the first key. Second, there's there's a ah there's a comical aspect with a lot of the Jewishness, which is kind of funny with the rabbis arguing with each other.
Speaker: And then there's kind of ah another story, the kind of love story where she's going to marry for love or for tradition. And then there's kind of a very serious part where there's the there's a pogrom. And even, you know, the guy guy seemingly in charge is like, well, i like you, but, you know, I have to do my job. So it's actually pretty layered for a musical, which are mostly...
Speaker: you know, silly and stupid. But this actually was a fairly complex story. As a movie, I think it would have worked even without the songs, frankly. So that's what I want. That's what I want. I want this movie without the music. oh Yeah, I want this movie. But at least the music's like, oh, I can hum that, like Matchmaker, Matchmaker. So was like, oh, that's pretty cool. So...
Speaker: But that's a credit to the movie, I think, that you're saying that the songs are are great, but it can survive even without them, the movie so strong. Exactly. Yeah. agree. I think that's what a good musical is. It has to survive as a story without the songs.
Speaker: Yes. And when the songs come in, they they have to be singable. So i think that's why a lot of musicals fail, where it's like, well, the story is stupid, but fine, what's the songs? Oh, you can't even sing them. so this is But within its genre, it's like you said, Rob, it's pretty flawless. Yeah.
Speaker: And think people should see this as an example what a good musical can be. So no, yeah, I agree with Rob, though. People, if they want have their musical education, this would be one of the musicals you should see to see this is what musicals are. This is a good example of what they can be. All right.
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Speaker: Let's talk about A Clockwork Orange. ah Rob, let's start with you. um It's a strange movie. It's very it's it's unpredictable. I mean, you don't expect it to go the way it went, where he's such a hooligan at the beginning. He and his friends, Malcolm McDowell's character, Alex.
Speaker: um And then, you know, he gets reformed like halfway through the movie and can no longer do these things, quote unquote, reformed. um you don't you don't really expect that was which i give credit to the movie for uh it was a book of course before a movie um say that i can't believe it was nominated is not because due to the quality of the movie it's just because of the subject matter i i think i think i think this movie if i were to see it a third time i don't I don't intend to, but if I did see it third time, I think I'd be shocked again.
Speaker: it's deliberately shocking. Yes. It's yeah is it' deliberately shocking. Um, yeah, I don't feel good about myself after seeing the movie. yeah I appreciate one time you pushed your friends into a river too, or no, um, or you don't listen to Beethoven anymore are not in same way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Um,
Speaker: yeah yeah yeah yeah there you go um Yeah, I mean, he was he was quite the character. He was a model prisoner. He was reformed and imprisoned, supposedly.
Speaker: um but he But they get revenge. as His victims get revenge on him after he gets out of prison, which is kind of interesting to see, too. So the movie takes a turn. the Stanley Kubrick, right, directed it. A lot of close-ups with the camera, a lot of weird and unique camera angles.
Speaker: Uh, again, singing in the rain was used as he would like was beating up this, this writer and his wife, um, like kicking him in the ribs, singing, singing in the rain. Um, so, but I guess clockwork orange, um, for those of you wondering why it's called that it means organic on the outside and,
Speaker: mechanical on the inside. I guess that's why they call it Clark. Yeah. It's not natural, even though it seems it. yeah Yeah, exactly. and The second half of the movie. It seems very natural to them to commit these crimes. Yeah. so Are you saying that you didn't like it? Like you said, I feel bad about myself after like, do you, do you, I appreciate this. I appreciate this movie and what they were trying to do and how they pulled it off.
Speaker: I'm not going to be a type of person who goes out and and says, like, this is a fantastic movie. You've got to go see it. And the last point I want to bring up was I thought that it was in a very interesting choice to make Alex Malcolm McDowell's character, the narrator, so you could see it from his point of view. I thought that was a stroke of genius. So there are strokes of genius in this movie, but the subject matter is not one I'm going to go out and tell people to see for that reason. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Dylan, I want to know, yeah I want to hear what you think, because tell me, do you like this movie? Oh, yeah. It's it's it's terrific. yeah Of course, it's Kubrick, so the direction's masterful. um Right.
Speaker: And there's so many wonderful themes in it um that you can pick a apart intellectually, but then it has just, like, great set pieces, and it it has great themes. It's a little too long, of course, um that's Kubrick. Yes.
Speaker: No, i no i I think it's a masterpiece. I think the themes are are wonderful about like, he's he's a young hooligan doing terrible things, but as you see, the state is falling apart.
Speaker: He lives in a dump and there's no services and shit's fucked up. Yeah, i really like that urban decay look that, you know, even in Alex's apartment building foyer, um it's, you know, he's it's it's this elegant decay that's happening. It's like something was good once and now it's all just falling apart.
Speaker: Right. He's not ungrateful demon. he's He's a product of a slum because that's the state's fault. And there are references to that where they're like, yeah he beats up a writer and they're like, oh, you know, we're going to put that writer in jail for his political views anyways. It's just mentioned in passing, but it's a fascist shitty state. He's like the least of the problems. They're throwing people in prison for writing against the government. They say that, you know what mean?
Speaker: um So what he does his crimes pale in comparison to what presumably the government's doing which is also the point when they reform him they completely remove his humanity which the priest keeps bringing up His victims get revenge, which is the basis emotion.
Speaker: Alex is just pure it He just does whatever he wants right these people in fact his friends who become and this is again part of the point of movie their police officers and And there they kick the shit out of him gleefully. Like, wait, what's the difference between you and Alex?
Speaker: There is no difference. They have a badge and Alex doesn't. So you start to see like, no, Alex is actually the least evil one. He's just acting on instinct. Everyone else is calculating and doing things on purpose. That makes them way worse. And even the guy gets revenge him on the end.
Speaker: That's not a happy moment. It's a terrible moment where it's like, Like the homeless man, the homeless man that he attacked earlier. well then too but yeah He ends up at the writers. Oh, the writers. Yeah. that And they write a record. This is the raped my man. That's terrible.
Speaker: That's terrible. Right. yeah But he is not civilized either. Alex has been reformed. He's paid his debt to society. He's like, oh, no. Now I take my revenge. Like, you're just as bad. You don't want to follow the rules either. You just want to do what you want to do. So, you know, so the themes are quite amazing and still resonant.
Speaker: And again, you have these great set pieces. And you have like funny moments where he he picks up two chicks and like fucks them and fast forward or, you know, the groundbreaking soundtrack, Wendy Carlos doing it all, all the Bach on synthesizer. So no, I think there's a lot to recommend the movie.
Speaker: I don't know if it was perceived at the time, like watching it now compared to a lot of the ultra realistic violence you see in movies now, ah compared to that, it's, it's very, it's like a, this is going to maybe be perceived wrongly, but almost like a,
Speaker: disney-fied version of violence like it's a fairy tale like a fair right he he we know he rapes a woman but we don't see the visceral details of that and for that i'm glad um and it's sort of comic book violence in a way so so it's representing violence but it's not i think when you watch it it's not like when you walk away from i don't know dylan you talk about rec room for a dream a lot like That's a movie I'll never see again. It's a tough movie that's very visceral the and the stuff that's happening is ultra realistic in it.
Speaker: um In this, it's it's I think i think it's we're able to have multiple viewings because it doesn't you don't walk away feeling like kind of barfy about what you've just seen. Maybe that's not true for Rob, but, but I think that it's, it's the, that's the direction, right? The direction is very colorful and it's depicting this sort of urban rot that's happening.
Speaker: um But at the same time, the the violence is, you know, they're having fun. You're seeing why they're doing it. They're having fun. And that's the kind of fun that you have in this society at this point. So I think that's what makes it watchable in a way. It's not like you're watching,
Speaker: ah I don't know. Even some people talk about how something like a Game of Thrones ah is too violent for them to watch because the the violence is kind of feels realistic and you see a head come off there's blood spurting out.
Speaker: It is very realistic. Yeah, you're not seeing that in this movie. So I think I can appreciate that because it makes it very watchable so that you can talk about all these themes or think about all these themes later on, which is...
Speaker: you know, what is free will and who's actually bad and who's actually good. And in this movie, really, there's almost nobody good. So i I do like this movie, but I'm probably somewhere along with Rob. Like if I never see it again, I'll be fine.
Speaker: So I think this is a pretty good movie, highly watchable, um still really, like you said, resonant themes. And just this year is just full of movies in the canon, right?
Speaker: Um, so we are coming to our final movie to talk about, which is the French connection, which was the winner that year. um and Dylan, let's start with you. Cause I think you're a fan of this movie. Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, it's a great movie. Yeah. Again, odd it it reminds me of Last Picture Show where it seems like it's a foreign movie. It doesn't seem very American. Like they don't catch the criminal in the end. He gets away with it.
Speaker: and And the hero is, to say he's an antihero, is certainly putting it mildly. Like he kills another cop. It's like, oh, well, I didn't like him anyways. You know, it's so it it has a really almost like a documentary Popeye Doyle, played by Gene Hackman, he looks like a cop. you know i is It was the first kind of realistic cop movie that I can think of, where it's like, he's not a good guy, he's not a bad guy, he has a job to do, and he's going to do it.
Speaker: He's pretty much above board, but he'll cut some corners if he has to, but it's to catch this guy. So I can't remember in American cinema if that ever been done before. um The drug dealer isn't particularly twiddling a mustache.
Speaker: Or like, I'm going to get little kids hooked on heroin. He's like, that's what I do. Catch me if you can. you know i am So so influential on on cop movie culture ever since. you know You've never had a heroic cop who's just pure driven snow because that's b****.
Speaker: and it's mostly because of this movie. You know, you have interesting cops who are interestingly flawed. And usually you villain who's kind of interesting, almost charismatic, almost like, I don't know. um And I said, the pacing is so interesting.
Speaker: Where, like the last picture, or so sometimes it seems slow, but but I get it. It's like setting up this atmosphere of what New York City must have been like at the time. I think the French character is brilliant showing, like, really what it's like to be a cop, really in New York City, really doing your job. And there's no better Gene Hackman and Roy Scheider.
Speaker: But what do you think, Rob? This movie frustrates me because i i everyone seems to love it, and I don't love it as much as everyone else. I think it's a bit overrated a little bit. um i can i i appreciate it i think it was a great use of new york uh i think the car chase is one of the greatest car chase scenes ever yeah i totally uh the to the train umbrella scene where they're stepping the choreography of that stepping in and out of the subway yeah brilliant brilliant i mean you there's brilliant aspects to this movie i just i want to love it like everyone else does but i just i just don't i just think it's a bit overrated i think the the
Speaker: The music was annoying. I think. Yeah, I don't i don't know. I think i I like the fact that it was influential. How about that? Because it really was like we now we've seen movies like The French Connection a thousand times. Right.
Speaker: OK. And that's complementary to French Connection and not to the other movies. And going back and seeing this movie, you say, I've seen this kind of movie a thousand times. And that's that's how I felt.
Speaker: But it's not the movie's fault. You know what I mean? It was 1971. It's the reason you've seen those movies. Right. This came first. Correct. That's why I'm a little frustrated watching this movie. You know what i mean Because it's not fair to the movie and I want to like it. But I just don't like it as much as it sounds like you guys do. So that's my take. Well, we'll see if Glennis liked it.
Speaker: I don't know. Again, I'm probably, I'm like even Steven. I'm probably somewhere in between the both of you where I can recognize this as a pretty good movie. gotta say cop movies are not my favorite genre. I have a hard time following the action.
Speaker: What's going on? Who's that guy? Why does everybody look the same? um Especially, you know, back then um everybody's in a suit. Like there's just not that much difference in the way people looked, I think.
Speaker: um I do think it's a really good film because I am not a fan of cop movies, but I do like this movie. um I think the direction's great. It's so interesting, like, thinking about the way, just the visuals. So the way this movie looks compared to this...
Speaker: from the same movie, the way a Clockwork Orange looks like. Film stock matters, right? Like, I don't know what it was shot on, but it just, there's a real grit to the way it looks. Yes. So, I think, I do think it's a really good movie.
Speaker: And I'm with Rob also. I'm wondering if it's a little overrated. Yeah. Yeah, fair enough. Not sure. I'm not sure about that. I think, I don't get excited about watching it. I just go, yeah, that's good. And I love Gene Hackman. Like, I think he's great. I think all the acting is fantastic is really great in this. I love, uh, what's his name? Rod right Schneider.
Speaker: Roy. my God. was going to call Rod Steiger. Roy Scheider. Sorry. Roy Scheider. Yeah. I i love Roy Scheider. Um, I think there's nothing wrong with this movie. I think it's a really very good, nearly perfect movie.
Speaker: ah There's no pat conclusion to the end, which is really interesting. But again, it's, do I get excited to watch it again? don't really think I'm probably going to watch it again.
Speaker: I don't know. Maybe I would have it was on TV, but. I mean, i'm not going to unless... Right. so Somewhere. We have concluded our business with the French Connection. yeah So I do, but I do think this is a really good watch.
Speaker: Like if you if you like cop dramas or even if you don't, this is pretty interesting. And the... The actual story is very interesting, too. Like, how are they getting to the drugs into the country and who gets involved? And, you know, these towns. Well, when you find out that's true about the actor, it's like, that's that's amazing. I love that these small-time restauranteurs are kind of like wanting to get into this big drug action. And they're kind of bozos. And they're just like the in-between people. Yeah.
Speaker: You know, it's it's very interesting. And then at the end, it kind of gives you... Like, you you don't know at the end, like, what happened? Did they get the guy? And then they give you the actual conclusion to what happened in the actual incident. it's like, oh, hmm, womp, womp, guy got away.
Speaker: So that's... It's an interesting movie about an anti-hero, a cop anti-hero, essentially. He's not... He's not even really heroic. He's just kind of crappy at his job. So it's interesting that they decided to make this this movie.
Speaker: um The people who seem like they've really got it together are the heroin dealers. Anyway, I think I'm midway in between the two of you. I do see why it was chosen. At the same time,
Speaker: and i Am I that excited about the French Connection? i can't get that excited about it. So did the Academy get it right? French Connection won that year. i Dylan, I want to start with you.
Speaker: Yeah, I do think they got it right. yeah um I think Friedkin, he makes it, again, seem almost like a documentary somehow, um where it seems you're really in these people's lives. And I like that it's a really interesting story. Like, oh is he going to get the guy? And then the end he doesn't. It's like, oh, that's really, i i I personally like that because every cop story, like, well, eventually we get him.
Speaker: Yay. um and No matter how flawed we are. But like that, oh no, in the end, and you know, it is based on a true story, but they still could have fictionalized it. Say, oh, they got him in the end. Yay, you know. But I thought that was brilliant because the the point in the movie is just showing how the cops do their their jobs.
Speaker: And if it had been anyone but but Hackman and Scheider, I think it doesn't work. I think they're perfectly cast in these roles. Even Fernando Rey, he's really, he did like, I think the like Louis Bernier, like, you know, all these like absurdist French movies and shit.
Speaker: um But he was really good in this. He's very, like, he's a really kind of like foreboding villain, not saying much or doing much, but you can tell like, oh no, he's he's someone to be reckoned with. So even that was really great casting.
Speaker: And I totally forgot, Rob, the car chase scene alone is like, ah, it's way better than bullet. It's amazing. Yeah. And like you said, the umbrella scene, he gets outsmarted, which I think is wonderful. So yeah, I would, I think it's the French connection. I think the Oscars for once in my estimation got it absolutely right.
Speaker: And, and no problem with Clockwork Orange, which I think is a ah masterpiece. It's not the same though. It is a movie you, you watch and you get it. But I think the French connection, there's a lot going on in terms of the actual quality of the work.
Speaker: And it's much more influential. um And again, I think much more digestible than A Clockwork Orange. So yeah, I think they got it right myself. But Rob? I can see why they picked The French Connection because there was really not, other than maybe Bullet and a couple other movies, there was not really a lot that was like this. And you can't they didn't have the foresight to to be able to jump forward in history and say, hey, this is going to be an influential movie.
Speaker: They didn't know that. At the time. But yet they still kind of had the feeling that it was. I can see why they picked it. But what I'm going to do is end my streak. I think I've gone quite a few months here. With agreeing with the Oscars. Agreeing with Hollywood. And just kind of you know giving in to what they said.
Speaker: But I'm not going to do that this this time. Exciting. I'm going to go with with Fiddler on the Roof. Wow. wow We did not see this one coming.
Speaker: i so i Wow. Thank you. i have I saw it weeks ago and I'm still having i still am still humming the songs in my head and thinking about it. I know what you guys are saying about how it's probably less less likely as a musical to win Best Picture, but that's what I think they they should have done because it was so good within its genre.
Speaker: But it's it's it's steps outside its genre and it's ah it's a wonderful movie outside of its genre as well. Dylan hit the nail on the head and I wish I had been the one to say this, but it would it would have been a great movie without the songs as well. And the songs are fantastic.
Speaker: I mean, that's just so well put. um And I couldn't agree more, but it's it's you know it can be compared to other movies. They compare it to like Rebel Without a Cause, of Splendor in the Grass.
Speaker: because of the themes of faith, family rebellion, things like that. um The metaphor of the fiddler on the roof, he's always there kind of watching over them. And, you know, that kind of taking taking note of their plight.
Speaker: And, you know, the the the theme of tradition, it doesn't, you know, he it doesn't stick with him. It's kind of comical that it's like, He's like, you know, tradition, I'm going to arrange the marriage marriage of all five of my daughters. And I don't think he got one of them. You what I mean? Right. Yeah. He really didn't.
Speaker: And it's, ah you know, it's comical in that way, too. But he he's a strong personality, Tevye, but yet he couldn't he couldn't pull that off. Yeah. So it's, you know, the ending is is quite sad when they all have to go off to different cities in the world that they know nothing about because the anti-Semites, they bought the town, they're coming in, they hate the Jewish people.
Speaker: um So they're no they become a nomadic group once again, but yet they they they don't stick together, which I find a little odd as a a town. There's an element of hope in it, don't you think? Where it's like... Well, yeah, we'll we'll figure it out.
Speaker: Thank you. Yeah, there's an element of hope. Yeah. In that. So which i and I enjoyed. And I just I just can't speak enough about the movie and the play and how brilliant I think it is. So, um you know, just what would we think looking back in history saying like, you know, we don't obviously remember 1971. We're all too young.
Speaker: But going back and saying the winner of that year was Fiddler on the Roof. Would we think it's that odd? I wouldn't. And that's why I picked it. is It is in the canon. So that's an easily defendable choice.
Speaker: Thank you had said something else, like what? I was kind of kind of hoping you were going to say The Last Picture Show for some reason. i just wanted to be like that movie as well. I wanted to be so shocked. But i'm not I'm not that surprised, I guess, that you picked that one.
Speaker: So there you go. Oh All right. um You know, I came into this still not knowing which one I was going to pick, honestly. And I thought, well, let's sort it out during the the podcast.
Speaker: I can see why the French connection was chosen. And i can't say, are i wouldn't say that was the wrong choice. But for interest's sake, I actually think that they could have just as easily gone with a clockwork orange.
Speaker: Fuck yeah. Oh, really? We've got to get a really for Rob. No, just by the way you talked about it, I didn't think you would pick it. No, I mean, probably it didn't communicate well, but I do think this is a really good, unique, for the time, and still movie.
Speaker: I agree the acting is way better in The French Connection, but I think that the... A Clockwork Orange didn't require great acting. It required yeah like this sort of very stylized acting.
Speaker: um I do think as we were talking about like all the themes that feel really still very resonant today, that wow, this really is a movie to think about.
Speaker: And I also think it's like, even though it's violent ultra violent i think that it is um really pretty to look at but like the it's stunning it's it's visually stunning and i just while we were talking i kind of looked up and i was like wait did any of kubrick's films get best picture and none of them did right so think he's only been nominated for two movies three movies i might be leaning a little bit into one of those movies should have gotten something and i looked at the list of his films and there aren't a ton but the ones that you would you would think of maybe being oscar worthy not barry linden
Speaker: ah maybe, yeah maybe Full Metal Jacket, Dr. Strangelove, 2001. One of those, like, really none of those got picked ever. And I think it's just because they happen to have the bad luck of being in a very strong year with other movies, maybe.
Speaker: Although, may pause? I think for something like 2001, it was too odd for the Academy. Yeah, it was weird. I wouldn't have picked it. Yeah, it was the number two grossing movie, so it obviously popular, but they picked, you know, The Lion of Winter.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. still, it's i still, it's still a weird movie. 2001. um two thousand one But so I think that, yeah, and this movie really sticks in my mind. So I think that's why I would have picked it now. I am not saying that the Academy did the wrong thing.
Speaker: By picking a French connection. I'm really split on this. If it had gone either way, ah french the French connection or clockwork orange, I would have been probably fine. If maybe just to be ah argumentative, if it if they had picked a clockwork orange, might be picking the French connection.
Speaker: That's how I think they're really tied neck and neck in different ways. So I thought, you know, just, just to shake it up a little bit, I really think that easily they could have given it. to A Clockwork Orange, which I think more people still remember too. Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker: Then nobody talks about The French Connection. I mean, I shouldn't say that. In film circles, of course they do, but it's not in the greater- No, I think it's like what Rob said, the influence is so great, you don't even notice. It's just one of many cut cop movies, you don't think of it as the first kind of gritty cop movie. Exactly, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: So maybe it's its influence kind of killed its legacy a little bit. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah. So I am. Oh, that's a good way, very good way to put it Thank you, you guys.
Speaker: um Sometimes I say something smart. So I, and I'm thinking that Kubrick should have been rewarded ah at least. some point. At some point. I'm not saying the Academy got this wrong. I think the French connection is a right choice, but I think it easily could have gone to ah clockwork orange.
Speaker: So there you go. None of us agree. but So which may be. None of us agree. Yeah. But you know what? We all agreed that the movies we pick like, no, I can see why you're picking it. Like I can see why you pick. fi oh yeah I can see clock. And I think you can both see why I pick French connection. It's not like, oh, Nicholas and alex Alexander. Like what?
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, friendship over. Yeah. it's like yeah i' mom And honestly, could have made a case for the last picture show, but I don't like it enough to do so. But that was a pretty good. So i the the top three for me would have been the last picture show, A Clockwork Orange and French Connection.
Speaker: Those are my serious three that I was thinking of. i I agree. But again, like, put it on the roof like, oh, yeah, no, no, definitely. But I can see it. Yeah. That's classic. Again, i'm I'm really having a hard time overcoming my musical bias. That's always going to be a problem for You have to for the podcast. Oh, man, no.
Speaker: I did it for Lord of the Rings. Yeah. No, exactly. Right? Yeah. No, it's true. Right? Yeah. Yeah. yeah I did it for Moulin Rouge, actually. I hate. I don't ever want to watch this movie again. Okay. So um we have righted the universe. We have, um you know, we have decided.
Speaker: wait What? You two righted the universe. I stuck with the universe this time. You stuck with it this time. But maybe we're wrong. If you disagree with us and if you want to tell us that we're wrong, you can email us at the Oscars podcast at gmail.com.
Speaker: The Oscars with an S at gmail.com. ah We will check your answer and read it on air. What's the next what's next episode? I got it right or here. Yeah, 1988, where it was the winner was Rain Man.
Speaker: The other movies, yeah the other four, The Accidental Tourist, Dangerous Liaisons, Mississippi Burning, and Working Girl. All right. Well, thanks, everybody, for joining us, and we'll see you 1988.
Speaker: you
