Transcript
Speaker: Sami Awad, thank you for joining me. Where does today's recording find you? It's really good to be with you, Eric, today. Well, I am in what many people know as the little town of Bethlehem in Palestine, in the occupied Palestinian territories sitting in my home.
Speaker: This is where geographically I am. And I will say, yeah part of this is to also acknowledge where I am is in a place where there is a lot of suffering, a lot of pain, a lot of injustice happening on a daily basis.
Speaker: Today, compared to many days in Bethlehem, it is a calm day so far. It's still in the afternoon, so we don't know what the night will bring. Usually many raids from the Israeli army happen at night.
Speaker: And I have to say something that might surprise many people. Part of me is actually happy today, even in the situation, because for the first time in almost a month, we have access to running, drinking water for 24 hours.
Speaker: that we have to save in tanks, we have to save in wells. But one of the big, big challenges that we as Palestinians have that people around the world don't know, this they hear the big and news, the big headlines, is our access to what something is so normal to many people, which is just drinking water.
Speaker: And so for over a month now, close to a month now, we haven't had any water. And today was a day where the faucets opened and we have water in our neighborhood. So that's where I am today. That's how and that's where and how I'm joining you.
Speaker: Well, thank you for that. And there are some things to be thankful for in there. I suspect that we'll get some context for some of those things that you talked about in your answer to the next question.
Speaker: Would you mind telling me a bit about yourself, Sammy? Yeah, so my name is Sami Awad. I'm a Palestinian. I'm an activist. I'm a person who is committed on violence.
Speaker: And I would say part of my life is being on a journey, on a journey of of discovery, on a journey of one of the big questions is asking, what is the being of the human being? What makes us who we are as human beings? What makes us treat each other?
Speaker: And coming from a Christian background um of a family that has existed in this land, at least on document, for over 800 years, we are very much connected to the teachings of Jesus.
Speaker: That's the family that I grew up in. and And these teachings have become a big part of my life. And I will share a little bit of the history of why this is important for me.
Speaker: um Because my family on my father's side originally comes from Jerusalem. Again, being a Christian family, not a family that converted into Christianity as again many Westerners think. that all Palestinians and all Arabs are Muslims and then some missionaries came and converted us to become Christians. this This is where it actually started and this is where we actually converted many people and I have to say sometimes I regret some of the people that we converted into Christianity for what they're doing in the name of Christianity itself.
Speaker: ah But my father's family lived and grew up in Jerusalem. This is where the family comes from. And 1948, as you know, was a disaster for the Palestinians. We call it the Nakba, the literal meaning of disaster.
Speaker: What was the war of independence for Israel and the Jewish people caused us the biggest disaster in our life. The person who would have been my grandfather was killed in that war, leaving behind his wife and seven children.
Speaker: The oldest was 12 and the youngest was two. My father was nine years old at that time. And when the Jewish forces came and took over the neighborhood that my father lived, they demanded that all the non-Jews leave that neighborhood.
Speaker: Now, when I say all the non-Jews, that should open the question of what does that mean? That means there were more Jews, non-Jews, Muslims, Christians. And again, this is something that many people historically have forgotten or bypassed. The reality that Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived in this land before 1948. The original inhabitants of this land that come from these three religions lived in peaceful conditions with each other.
Speaker: They were neighbors. They spoke the same language. Arabic was the language also that the Jews used here in this land. They took care of each other. I sometimes say they were better neighbors with each other than we are today with our current neighbors, even if we come from the same ethnic, racial, and religious background.
Speaker: But in 1948, and then this is why we as Palestinians, we we never blame Jews for our suffering. We blame an ideology, an ideology that sought to have exclusivity for the Jewish people in this land called Zionism.
Speaker: In that exclusivity, we received our suffering. And the family, after my person who would have been my grandfather was killed, the family became refugees. 75% of the non-Jewish population, Palestinians, Christians, and Muslims, became refugees during that time.
Speaker: And we ended up in Bethlehem. This is why i actually live here in Bethlehem. The reason I always like to share the story and talk about it is because a big part of my life has been affected not just by the family experience, but what came out of that experience. My grandmother, Huda, who looked into her Christian faith in a way that I have learned to honor and admire in a way that she saw the teachings of Jesus as the teachings that we should not take revenge and retaliate for those who have done this to us.
Speaker: And at the same time, we should never turn our back away from the injustices and the violence that we see, that we should always seek peace and justice and reconciliation, even with those who have caused us the greatest harm.
Speaker: And that seed was the seed that my grandmother planted in her children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren and now And this is why my life has been committed to nonviolence and peace work since almost the day I was born, because of the influence of my grandmother and the influence of an uncle of mine.
Speaker: His name is Mubarak Awad. who in the 80s began to train and build strategies about Palestinians engaging in non-violence resistance, similar to what Gandhi did in India, similar to what Martin Luther King did in the civil rights movement in the U.S. He became even known as the Gandhi of Palestine in the 80s.
Speaker: And the Israeli army and the Israeli government saw in his non-violent activism, in his peace work, including working with many Israelis, a threat. and decided in 1988 to arrest him and deport him, never allowed him to return and live here until this day.
Speaker: And so this is the family that I grew up in. This is where my commitment to engaging in nonviolence, engaging in justice work, dismantling systems and structures of oppression, and and imagining and creating a better future for all of us it comes from.
Speaker: Thank you for that. I appreciate getting so much of the context and there's still a lot to explore. So hopefully I ask you questions where it's clearly lacks some information, you will tell me, and then we can, you know, push on each other a little bit.
Speaker: We're in this together. Exactly. When you talk about nonviolence, at least it in in the way that it shows up for you or your family or your advocacy right now, was that a a trait of your family? Was it something that your family was committed to prior to 1948? And maybe, i suppose what might be wrapped into this, a sufficient answer, Sammy, might also be...
Speaker: Was there a need for some form of resistance or reformation or or something else prior to that time? That's a really good question. And the answer is yes, because before 1948, as Palestinians, we lived under what's known as the British mandate.
Speaker: So the British, in a way, had occupied this land from the end of the First World 1917, all the way up to 1948. And that British mandate also was a military control over the Palestinian population.
Speaker: And part of what the British mandate allowed for is an influx of Jews from Europe beyond the capacity of what this land and the people of this land can actually take.
Speaker: ah Jewish migrants came in out of the anti-Semitism that was growing in Europe, out of the Nazism that was growing in Europe. Many Jews came here.
Speaker: And many of them were actually welcomed by the Palestinian Christians and Muslims. My great grandfather actually welcomed Jews into his home in in Jaffa. It was known as Yafo now.
Speaker: and And then the stories of how he left his bedroom with his wife and let a whole Jewish family actually stay there because they were refugees. And so that hospitality and that care was always part of Palestinian presence.
Speaker: But when the number was growing too much and faster and Palestinians began to see the influx of Europeans into this land as a threat, Palestinians revolted.
Speaker: And then one of the big revolts is 1936 revolt the Palestinians. revolt of the palestinians that was in its nature actually quite non-violent. ah Even Gandhi praised the Palestinians in 1936 for how they were practicing non-violence, which included strikes, refusing to pay taxes, refusing to abide by the British military orders, ah closing roads, all kinds of activities that they were doing to protest the British mandate itself and the influx of Jews. Now, I don't have a clear history of how much my family was involved in this. I know my grandfather and great-grandfather were also community leaders in this land. So the assumption is they were quite present in and at least that revolution.
Speaker: And so nonviolence goes goes way back in this land. I mean, we could even go back 2,000 years of of this land being occupied, being colonized, having empires in and out of it. And there was always a resistance for some sort of liberation by some group of people that faced oppression here.
Speaker: For me, lacking a depth of knowledge about the area, but having read you know my history, for example, there are certain things that I recall without at the same time necessarily recalling how one thing relates to another.
Speaker: I suspect that if you go to your average person in the United States, that on the edges, certainly you will have people Zionist or anti-Zionist, I guess that it, like that on the edges, you know, of, of the norm,
Speaker: You have people who have an opinion and they're very well informed because of their faith or they're really into history or politics or any number of other things. Perhaps their families come from one part of the world or another.
Speaker: But for many people in the United States, I'm guessing that there's just a general sense that is informed by things starting probably from ninety ninety ish you know, first Gulf War sort of things up through September 11th in the United States and October 7th, 2023. Just this general sense that the the Muslims hate the Jews and maybe even the Christians and don't want anybody else there and nobody can get along. And so we have the, I forget the year, but in the 1990s, there were the Camp David Accords, if I recall correctly. And then The Oslo Accords. Yeah.
Speaker: Oslo Accords. Sorry. There we go. And we've had things more recently, but I think that the general sense is that there's something going on in that part of the world, largely driven by religion, and nobody wants to get along.
Speaker: And it's clear that it should be clear to all of us that there's a lot more to understand than that. But while we don't have an entire lecture series here to go into it, I'm wondering if you can help me understand What have been, i suppose, some of the big developments over time where there was a great opportunity for some agreements or peace or who knows what that fell apart and why. And then, you know, more recently, what people are aware of, at least vaguely, is October 7th, 2023. So I'm wondering, you know, kind of what led up to that and where, as I said, there was a real opportunity for breakthrough or something of that nature.
Speaker: I mean, we we have to go back to the Balfour Declaration. This this is when ah Lord Balfour, who was the British Foreign Secretary at that time leading up to the First World War and during the First World War, made a promise to the Jewish people in Europe that they will have a homeland, in Palestine he actually called it Palestine not Israel he called it Palestine and he called it a homeland in the land and in the Balfour Declaration there was something that most people ignore even till this day where that will not infringe on the indigenous people that live in that land so having a homeland means also honoring the people that already live there that part was crapped
Speaker: And so from 1917 onward, what we as Palestinians have been facing, i would say, is a colonial project. Now, Jews would listen to this and many Christians would listen to this and all, but this is God's promise. They have returned to the land. This is the promised land. This is where they came from.
Speaker: Again, say, as Palestinians, we never, never had any issue with Jews who practice Judaism in their religion, in their tenets, in their values of Judaism, which is the foundation actually of Christianity and Islam, to to live in this land.
Speaker: That was never an issue. But Zionism, as a colonial project, brought in it that sense of exclusivity. that this land should be ours and only ours and nobody should live in this land and if they live on this land they should be at best subordinate to us at best thankful that we might give them actually a good way of living in this land but they will not be like the rest of us This this is this is a key tenet of Zionism. I know people will disagree, but just that concept of exclusivity of one group of people living here while others don't have the same rights. This is, again, what we as Palestinians have been facing.
Speaker: This led to the war in 1948 that, as we talked about before, created the disaster for the Palestinians. And Palestinians resisted. I mean, any group of people, any any indigenous group of people that has faced a colonial project resisted.
Speaker: And yes, sadly, many of these indigenous communities lost because the colonialists had weapons, had tools, had the the money, had the power, had the political clout. Because again, this is European and American-led mechanisms to win.
Speaker: But there was a resistance. And 1948, as I said, created the disaster. Between 1948 and 1967, which is the Six-Day War that you talked about, Palestinians who lived in what we now call occupied territories lived under Jordanian and Egyptian rules.
Speaker: Again, not the best and not independent. And Egyptians and Jordanians never gave us our independence that we even wanted, even in the 20% of the territory that remained for us. 1967, another war broke out and There's a lot of discussion on who started the war and why it started.
Speaker: Israel occupied the rest of what was known as historic Palestine, from the river to the sea, you know that slogan that many people hear. And so Israel now has control over the whole thing.
Speaker: They control us. They control our lives. I talked about water. They control our water. They're the ones that open the water to us in the Palestinian areas to come once a month. They control our electricity. They control our electricity. Our borders, every product that goes in and out is controlled by them. And we live under their military rule.
Speaker: Even though we have what is known as a Palestinian authority, a governing system, even they are controlled by Israel. So in 1967, I always say Israel had a choice.
Speaker: They could say, okay, we're going to declare this whole thing as being the state of Israel. And those who live here will need to live here as Israeli citizens. Maybe we won't be first-tier class citizens like the Jews here, but that we could live.
Speaker: We could also live in our joy, and living our lives. And Israel did not do this. They did not take over the newly acquired land and make it part of the state of Israel. They imposed their military in 1967. As I said, that still rules us today.
Speaker: Now you say opportunities. Yes, Oslo was an opportunity. It was the first time when Pedestinian and the Israeli leaders were forced or coerced or told they have to sit with each other, especially after the first Gulf War.
Speaker: And they were told, you need to find a solution here. And negotiations began for something called the two-state solution that people have heard about. One state had called Palestine, one state called Israel, living side by side in peace. This is what the Oslo peace process was about. Even though in that Oslo process, Israel never acknowledged, not a single Israeli leader ever said that there will be a Palestinian state.
Speaker: So this is something that we need to take into account. We, I was around, I was in Washington, D.C. actually when Yasser Arafat and Ishak Rabin signed with Bill Clinton the Oslo deal on the lawn of the White House. We were excited. We were waving Palestinian flags and honking our horns on in Georgetown celebrating the Oslo. We thought this was it.
Speaker: We were going to achieve peace. We knew the end result, the two-state solution. The problem we as Palestinians had was that while we were negotiating the Oslo peace process, the Israeli government, and it didn't matter if it was right-wing or left-wing, labor or Likud, continued in the policy of confiscating land that was supposed to be handed over to the Palestinians,
Speaker: And building what are known as illegal settlements, settlements that are existing in the occupied territories. And settlements are not, you know, like little enclaves. These are towns and communities and villages, 40,000, 50,000 people.
Speaker: citizens or residents living in them with malls and shopping centers and restaurants all built on the land that was supposed to be handed to the Palestinians for establishing a state.
Speaker: And Sammy, when you say that the, but was there either a stated purpose or moving into those areas or occupying those areas or whether they were stated or not, was there a reason that you understand for doing that?
Speaker: the The reason, and I will say this with all honesty, is that Israel never wanted a Palestinian state to be established. Israel wanted to control the whole thing from the river to the sea as they have since and until now.
Speaker: And Israel wanted to deal with an issue that for Israel was very important, which is the demographic issue. How many of each side exists in this land?
Speaker: You know, as if politically my motivation is only to move as a Palestinian and Israeli only to move as an Israeli or a Jew only as a Jew or a Muslim as a Muslim. And so so for Israel, they wanted to reach some sort of solution for how do we deal with a growing population that is non-Jews in the land that, again, we wanted it to be exclusively Jews.
Speaker: And if we want to declare ou ourselves as a democracy and we want to be seen as a democracy, we cannot be occupiers of another people. We cannot suppress on another people.
Speaker: Imagine, i mean, as as terrible as it is for indigenous communities around the world, if it's in New Zealand, if it's in Australia, if it's in in the United States or South Africa,
Speaker: Those people, that indigenous, became citizens of that colonial state. They don't have a New Zealand different passport for the Maori than for the white people or, again, in any of the countries. Here, it is different.
Speaker: And this is how they were able to deal with this demographic issue. We reach an agreement with the people who we're occupying to give them some sense of autonomy, to give them the symbolism of the state, but never a state and never access to the whole land.
Speaker: And I think this was the intention of Israel from the beginning. I think many of us around the world, including many Americans, got duped into the promise that this was going to lead to peace.
Speaker: And it just kept leading to a disaster, ongoing and ongoing disaster. And of course, at one point, the whole peace process collapses. The whole peace process fails. And we go into resistance. We go into what's known as the second intifada.
Speaker: where Palestinians engaged in demanding that right that failed in negotiations through resistance. And it included nonviolent resistance that I was very actively part of and engaging in. And I would say also sadly included armed resistance, what we could call violent resistance. But resistance is resistance. And this is what people do when they face tyranny and injustice.
Speaker: So I guess the short answer is there was never really a real opportunity. And there was never really a time when the US actually really told Israel, even though as a Republican, George Bush Senior was the only US president to put a little pressure on the settlement expansion project, but that was very temporary and very little.
Speaker: There was never US president who said, for your sake Israel, you need to stop doing this. for your sake you need to reach a just peace agreement with the palestinians and we guarantee security i mean palestinians you know we're we're not out to murder we just want to live in peace we want to live in dignity want to live with our families ah but this image and that you mentioned earlier which is very important that how muslims are perceived in the western world how muslims are perceived in the western media as the enemy, as the bad, as the evil, as as the terrorists, as the ones that just want to rape and murder and pillage everything around them. That that image is is what allowed the public in the US to actually remain silent when we as Palestinians, again, Christians and Muslims were suffering even during the years of the Oslo peace process.
Speaker: And so how is it that we arrive at? i was about to say end up, but it's certainly not the end of things. How do we arrive at something like October 7th? And then hopefully you'll inform me about how things have gone since then as well, Sammy.
Speaker: I don't know, again, how much your audience knows of what the situation in Gaza was like before October 7th. I talked about my father's family. My mother's family is actually from Gaza, from the Gaza Strip.
Speaker: And I'll share a little bit more later maybe about the fact that they were there in Gaza when October 7th hit. So my mother's family, uncle, my uncle's aunts, cousins, they all lived in Gaza until this time.
Speaker: and And Gaza was was a human disaster. It was a a a literal open-air prison, a small area of land, probably the second or third most populated territory of land in the world today, you know individuals per square meter that were living there.
Speaker: living for many, many years under an economic blockade. Most products couldn't go in and out of it because they were illegal by Israel, including medical products, including construction products that were illegal.
Speaker: ah This is where we started hearing about the tunnels from Egypt, not because they were smuggling weapons. I'll tell you a story. of my My cousin surprised my uncle once in bringing him Kentucky Fried Chicken, KFC, that was smuggled through the tunnel from Egypt to Gaza.
Speaker: that's That's what people were smuggling it during during those days. ah So it it was a disaster. At the same time, on a bigger collective level, there were negotiations happening known as the Abrahamic Accord with Saudi Arabia, with the Gulf states, with Egypt, Morocco, Qatar, engaging in some negotiations with Israel about creating some new Middle East ah map, economic, political, geographic map.
Speaker: And for the most part, Palestinians were ignored and neglected from these negotiations. Palestinians had no idea what was happening in these negotiations other than negotiations are happening even though we are the heart of the issue that needed to be addressed.
Speaker: My analysis of this is Hamas, which is a group that on every level I want to say I don't agree with, ideologically, politically, theologically.
Speaker: ah It is still a Palestinian group. and They are part of the Palestinian collective. They they exist. saw the things falling apart so fast and such a disaster that they decided to do something about it.
Speaker: Now, just in the last 24 hours, there are reports coming out of of the warnings that Israel had, including from Senwar, the Hamas leader himself, who actually issued this warning to Israeli leaders that he was in negotiations with that we need to be on the table. We need to have an answer for the situation in Gaza.
Speaker: And if not, this is going to end up in disaster. And so there are now reports that are coming out almost three years later that I think analysts are still trying to figure out what really happened from the warnings. Netanyahu not listening to these warnings or ignoring them or seeing an opportunity in these warnings that if something happens, here's an opportunity for me.
Speaker: to create havoc and destruction. Again, the the dust hasn't settled, so i don't want to jump into conclusions. but But there are reports that are now coming out that have never been ah reported on before in terms of what was happening leading up to October 7th.
Speaker: But the fact is Israel knew it was coming. Israel warned was warned by many, many sources that this was coming. And Israel did not do anything to stop it. They could have done this stop it.
Speaker: I mean, people in Israel say not a single mouse can cross the fence that they created out of AI intelligence and surveillance and computers that were created and and monitoring information. And all of a sudden, you know, hundreds and thousands of militants are able to cross the boundary and border and and create a disaster, and which was a disaster October 7th, and I acknowledge this.
Speaker: So there there is a lot of nuances in the story. Again, it's not just how the Western mindset and media presents it as Muslims hating Jews and wanting to kill them.
Speaker: This is not the story. It was never the story. The story is always about a people living under occupation, living in suppression, living in injustice, and seeking freedom and liberation.
Speaker: And freedom and liberation is not anti-Semitic. Freedom and liberation doesn't mean the other has the right not to exist anymore, especially in the framework that was suggested and still is suggested known as the two-state solution, where Israel will be its own independent state living on 80% of the land and Palestinians will have to figure out how to live on 20% of the land.
Speaker: But again, that colonial project does not even want that. and And this is the sad reality of what we have seen in the aftermath of October seventh I want to acknowledge that, you know, before I ask too many more questions that, you know, you, you said, right, that you, i believe you said this at least, that it's not like you supported the October 7th tax or that you're ideologically aligned or anything of that nature.
Speaker: ah So more so as I ask about this in more depth, I'm hoping to understand the context, current context, and and, you know, sort of from October 7th forward, you mentioned that you either had or perhaps still have family in Gaza.
Speaker: And so I'm wondering about some of, I guess, what the experience was like for them around that time and since then, and also, Sammy, what you have maybe come to learn.
Speaker: from living you know near there and also having family there. Yeah, so I'll say October 7th is one of those days that will go down in history as the day that you'll remember exactly where you were when you heard the news. you know Just like you know the the Kennedy assassination that people thought they knew exactly, they can remember exactly, or the Discovery explosion, the the space shuttle exploding.
Speaker: And so on that day, I was actually giving a lecture to two American groups in the Bethlehem Bible College, the Bible college that my father established to train Palestinian Christian leaders.
Speaker: And we started hearing commotions. We started hearing the sirens and rockets and firing. And i actually told the groups that this is normal. that Every once in a while, we hear this. And I left left the group.
Speaker: to to realize this is much bigger and much worse than every once in a while Hamas firing rockets from Gaza towards Israel or or Israel provoking some attack and counterattack with Hamas.
Speaker: ah And then I was deeply shocked. i was I was taken back. I wasn't never expecting anything like this to happen. And the first thing that I did was when I got home, I called my cousin Ramzi in Gaza.
Speaker: And I said, Ramzi, we need to find a way to get you out of Gaza, to get the family out from Gaza. This is going to be a disaster. This is this is not easy, what what's happening. and And for people in Galilee, they still didn't even know what was happening. and And he just said, oh, but Sam, you know, every couple of years we have this, you know, Hamas launches rockets, Israeli retaliates against Hamas leaders where the rockets launched, and then we move on.
Speaker: And I said, this is this is not it. this is going to open the doors of hell on gaza because what hamas did wasn't just an attack that killed again wrongly many innocent people what hamas did was in in my opinion the way i viewed it was expose and embarrass the state of israel itself a state that had promised its people that we will always control the palestinians we will always make sure you are safe we will do everything to prevent any israeli from being harmed no matter what the prices that the palestinians have to pay all of the sudden that illusion fell apart
Speaker: So Netanyahu was actually embarrassed by by what that experience was, more than more than more than it being a threat to Israel. Because honestly, I would say no matter what Hamas would have done, it would have never been a threat, an existential threat to Israel.
Speaker: They didn't have the weapons. They didn't have the capacity. They didn't have the the military strategy and and maopower manpower to to do that. but they created terror.
Speaker: that was you know That's where we get the word from. And at the same time, it exposed Israel for its own people, the Israeli government for its own people. And so the response of the Israeli military and government wasn't proportional like in the past.
Speaker: Proportional meaning you know Hamas kills one and we kill a thousand. That's the proportion that we got used to. Now it was we are going to make sure this this is beyond revenge. This is beyond retaliation. This is us reclaiming our power in this land.
Speaker: And if that means committing genocide, destroying schools, hospitals, universities, kindergartens ah you name it we will do this again in the name of security and then protecting ourselves but but it was coming from a different different energy than anything before and then this is what we continue to experience as pedestrians i mean you know the situation happened in gaza
Speaker: Palestinians living in the West Bank where I live had nothing to do with it, had no idea about it. We don't even have military capacity like what Hamas did to even join or build on what Hamas did. And we end up suffering the same.
Speaker: And then this is where this notion of collective punishment, just by me being a Palestinian, I will be punished for what another Palestinian does.
Speaker: Doesn't matter if I'm a Christian or not. So my restriction on movement, my restriction on traveling, my restrictions on on accessing ah resources is has all become limited. Land confiscation, as we see today more and more communities that are being ethnically cleansed from their land, Bedouin communities, farming villages,
Speaker: that have nothing, just a desire to live on their land, are being ethnically cleansed from their land, again, under this notion of collective punishment, under this notion that every Palestinian needs to suffer because of the acts of the few, because of the acts of Hamas, that never, ever represented the Palestinian community other than representing themselves.
Speaker: But it's an excuse. It's an excuse to achieve. and And this is the sad reality that I feel I was, and many people were duped into that possibility of peace that, as I said, never existed.
Speaker: That there is a colonial project happening in this land. And Israel wants this land, the whole thing for Israelis themselves. And the Palestinians, at the best, as I said, will have to live as subordinate. This is what is happening now.
Speaker: our access to our farming land our access to our olive trees our access to water is completely controlled and limited even more now before 800 roadblocks and checkpoints were formed just in the first few months after october 7th between palestinian towns and villages in the west bank where we couldn't even go visit family members and visit your villaging and community neighbors because there are checkpoints that have been established In addition the brutality that we face at Checkpoint, in addition to so many Palestinians in the West Bank being arrested for absolutely no reason, including very, very close friends of mine, people who were peaceful, people who were committed to nonviolence, arrested, beaten up, tortured. i don't know if you've heard of the situation of how Palestinians live in prisons today.
Speaker: very little food, showering maybe once a week, having to wear the same clothes for a months at a time, no medical care, zero, like zero medical care, no visitations from lawyers, no visitations from family, no visitations from the Red Cross and organizations that are supposed to monitor political prisoners and how they're treated.
Speaker: Forbidden. forbidden and then they leave there with illnesses and sicknesses that are lifelong for them and again most of them without any accusation without any trial even something known as administrative detention which is Israeli military can decide to detain somebody for six months at a time, renew it automatically without charging them, without accusing them, without them even having the ability to meet a lawyer.
Speaker: This is a law in the Israeli military itself. And then when they decide they want to release them, they release them. Thousands, thousands of Palestinians from the West Bank are in prisons for that reason.
Speaker: And so in in a way, the way I describe it is what October 7th did again in the disaster of what October 7th was, was speeding up what Israel actually wanted to do from the beginning.
Speaker: to say that we have no partners. They've said that so many times before, even though Yasir Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas literally bent their back to appease and to reach an agreement with Israel, but they always accused the Palestinians, again, in the Western mindset, the Arabs, the Muslims, they are not our partners and the West buys these lies all the time.
Speaker: and And therefore we cannot make peace with them. At the moment, We give them a chance, they become violent. And so how can we make peace with them? We need to get rid of them. This, this is the day to day reality of what Palestinians have been facing after October 7th.
Speaker: Now, i suppose being a nonviolent activist activist or supporting nonviolence does not necessarily mean that you have to just forget about the past. So I don't want to pretend that it's all water under the bridge and we you know only think about today forward, but also maybe trying to think about the most realistic agreements or settlements or the most realistic future potentials.
Speaker: You think, Sammy, is one or more realistic outcomes of, gosh, now that i now that I think about this, Sammy, I'm thinking both in terms of if there's a quote-unquote successful nonviolent Palestinian movement, what might be a realistic outcome of that, and then nonviolent or not.
Speaker: You know, do you do you have an idea of a peaceful solution that we might arrive at, whether it's 10 years from now or 100 years from now?
Speaker: I want to state something that is very difficult. Resistance as resistance is now forbidden. we live under if it's armed resistance which is a legitimate right that many people use around the world to resist tyranny to resist occupation to resist colonialism you know it's it's always interesting why the Palestinians are always the ones that are labeled as terrorists when they engage in legitimate armed resistance against occupation but we'll not get into that
Speaker: Because groups of people around the world have used armed resistance. They and see used armed resistance. South Africa liberation movement was an arm resistance and we celebrated those who engaged in arm resistance to end apartheid. The US country itself, America, was built on the revolution that included armed resistance against the British. And we celebrate.
Speaker: We celebrate the fact that people picked up arms and resisted systems of tyranny and occupation. The reality that we live in now as Palestinians is is nonviolence is rejected and armed resistance is rejected. I cannot organize a nonviolent action in this land without being arrested, without being injured, without being shot, without being detained immediately.
Speaker: This is the reality that I live in. I used to organize demonstrations and protests that included also Palestinians and Israeli activists coming together. to resist settlement expansion, to resist uprooting of olive trees, to resist building of the separation apartheid wall that we see.
Speaker: Now, to be honest, it is life-threatening to even engage in nonviolence. and And so this is for me also is is to acknowledge the power of nonviolence as well, because nonviolence is about resistance.
Speaker: Nonviolence, as you said, it's not about, you know, lovey-dovey and let's all get along and and water under the bridge and sit sing and sit under around a campfire and and sing lullabies. that's That's not nonviolent resistance. That's not what Martin Luther King was engaging in. That's not what Gandhi was engaging in.
Speaker: It was standing up to the systems of tyranny and injustice and resisting them through means that do not cause harm to those who are in that system and structure of power.
Speaker: Because in a sense, we acknowledge that they are also being coerced and being manipulated into becoming part of that system. through fear, through manipulation, through different tools that they think that by standing with the system of power, it is good for them.
Speaker: And this is why nonviolence at the core is very important.
Speaker: At this time, Eric, my my biggest fear is that I don't even know if Palestinians will be around 10 years from now to even have that conversation, what it would look like.
Speaker: The world has shifted a lot in terms of seeing how Israel has been treating Palestinians. And we see this in the many marches that are happening globally. We see this in the shift in American public opinion polls in terms of the view on Israel and the view on Palestinians.
Speaker: And so so there is a shift that's happening and we're we're seeing it even becoming an issue in elections in the United States. Even presidential elections have been shifting who wins and who loses based on certain views in terms of what's happening in Palestine, what happened in Gaza and how it affected the Democratic Party in the last presidential elections was a big issue.
Speaker: And at the same time, I say, what is changing on the ground? How is the life of Palestinians becoming better? How is the life of Palestinians actually is beginning to see hope that there is a better day tomorrow?
Speaker: And the reality, it's not there. I'm a very optimistic person, Eric. I'm and ah um i' talking to you and at the same time, I'm really trying to find an answer. I believe that the answer will come when the international community begins to tell Israel enough is enough.
Speaker: Political leaders around the world need to step out of fear of being accused of being anti-Semitic if they criticize Israel, if they tell Israel you're doing wrong, if they tell Israel you're violating the international law that was actually created as a result of the Holocaust to prevent things like this from happening again. You are the ones that are violating it.
Speaker: and hold Israel accountable, like all nations need to be held accountable for crimes that they commit. And once that happens, I think there will be a chance. There will be a chance that we could talk about peace, that we could talk about Israel being put under enough pressure by the global community to actually acknowledge that, yes, we have committed something wrong, and maybe new Israeli leaders will come out of this and look into that last generation of Israeli leaders and say, yes,
Speaker: They were fascists, they were dictators, they were militant, they were terrorists even, as even many Israeli leaders now are saying about the current existing leaders. And that we need a new generation of Israeli leaders to come out and say, yes, we need to make peace with the Palestinians. We need we need to to restore the damage that we have done.
Speaker: That there is a possibility of all the communities that live in this land to live in dignity and freedom and equality and justice and respect. and And for me, to be honest, it doesn't matter what political framing it is. If it's one-state solution, if it's a two-state solution, if it's a a confederal solution, you know, there are 23 different solutions that have been been presented to to the Palestinian-Israeli crisis, let let me call it.
Speaker: And at this point, none of them are workable. And so we have to create together, i think locally and globally, the conditions that would allow for the emergence of new leaders within the Israel itself that understand that we have committed crimes against the Palestinians and we have done a disaster that to the Palestinians and we need to reconcile this and move forward. And that can only happen with the help of the international community.
Speaker: It's not as, you know, as Palestinians, our resistance now is resilience. Our resistance is to try to stay in our land for as long as we can.
Speaker: And steadfastness is is what we are trying to do our best. But honestly, I mentioned earlier how my family comes from 800 years of being here.
Speaker: For the first time in my life, I really wonder if the Israeli army will come to my door in Bethlehem and demand that me and my family leave, be evicted from our ancestral home. I never, ever thought of this until this last year.
Speaker: Do think there are one or more dominant reasons that the international community is not pushing for solution, like you know but pushing the Israeli government?
Speaker: Yes. One thing is that, as I said before, Israel is a colonial project and and Western nations are colonial projects themselves.
Speaker: they They were created from colonial projects and they have colonized other peoples throughout their history. And so history is repeating itself in this regard. that And and i've we've heard Israeli leaders say this.
Speaker: We've heard Israeli leaders say this to Americans. Look what you did to your indigenous people. You're coming to tell us we shouldn't do the same? You killed millions of them. Don't come preaching your values on us. That's Israeli leaders telling you know the U.S., their best ally in this country.
Speaker: And so one one aspect of it is consciously this is still part of Western colonialist structures and systems that exist. The other aspect of it is, as we have been mentioning before, it's a very racist approach of Judeo-Christian, what we call values or or unity, seeing Islam as the greatest evil this world has ever experienced.
Speaker: And in their unity, committing atrocious acts of evil towards, again, Palestinians, Lebanese, Christians, Muslims, people of a different skin color than what they are.
Speaker: So that that religious marriage is is very dangerous, and especially when you're connected with theologies that promote what's called end days theology, dispensationalism, that all of what's happening is some fulfillment of prophecy that's going to lead to the second coming of Christ and Armageddon and and and and and and so on.
Speaker: and And in that actually the the the seeds of anti-Semitism exist because i don't know how well you are aware of Christian Zionism as a theology.
Speaker: It actually sees the end of Judaism itself. That when the Second Coming happens, when Armageddon happens, Jews will have the choice. Either you follow Christ and become Christian or you will be eliminated and destroyed.
Speaker: So even Judaism as a religion, as as ah as a value, will be destroyed through Christian Zionism. So Christian Zionism, ah Judeo-Christian unity, economic, political values, influence by Zionists in political structures, especially in the United States. You probably heard of a group called APAC,
Speaker: which is the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, and the millions and billions of dollars they spend in even small you know town elections in the United States and then the congressional district elections to put people who align with their policy and will fulfill their policy in these political structures ah So there many, many things.
Speaker: and And maybe the last one I would say is the guilting and shaming. Guilting and shaming. Because Israel has always and will always continue to claim the Holocaust, which was a global disaster, as the greatest global disaster in human history. And the world owes Israel and will always owe Israel. Not the Jewish people.
Speaker: israel for what happened in the holocaust so anytime again just if you follow the news anytime what we're recently hearing even britain just yesterday announced sanctions on israeli settlers for the violence that they're doing towards palestinians and the immediate response is anti-semitism and look what you have done to us even though britain is the reason why israel exists today you know the Balfour Declaration that we talked about.
Speaker: And still, they are guilted and shamed into being anti-Semitic for sanctioning settlers for real atrocious acts of violence they're doing to Palestinians. So there are many, many nuances as to why the world remains silent.
Speaker: and and it's And for me, it's a stain. It's a blood stain on the West, especially, that they still remain silent and not speak up. I have been leading up to this conversation, really curious about what you see in a potential future. And I mean, honestly, Sammy, when I, there's still a lot that I don't know, but when I think about just your average person, you know, as a parent, having to think about what might the future look like for my children?
Speaker: For example, what kind of life is, is that? I don't know on average what it's like, but we all want better, whatever your religion is or your political opinions or whatever. We all want better for our children. And it sure, the picture that you paint and what I think I read in the news is one that is very difficult for Palestinian children.
Speaker: the The bottom line is we need leaders. we need We need good leaders that understand, as I said before. We need leaders that are ready to come together and say, yes, this has been a disaster.
Speaker: All the communities in this land have suffered. There is a historic reality that we will also acknowledge. I mean, i I went to Auschwitz.
Speaker: I was one of the few Palestinian leaders to visit Auschwitz and acknowledge the pain of what happened for the Jewish people there. in In combination with my nonviolent activists, I started creating and leading healing spaces where we as Palestinians and Israelis would come together and look into the historic traumas not just as the stories, but how they affect us today.
Speaker: This was one of the big things that I've done, again, part of my activism, because we cannot we cannot engage in peace work when two sides are living in fear, either fear from each other or fear that they have inherited that makes them see the other as a potential threat.
Speaker: And so i've done I've done this work, Eric. I mean, I've been i've been in the trenches. I've been accused and attacked by Palestinians of almost treason. Why why are you caring about their trauma that happened 60, 70 years ago and you're not doing anything about our trauma that's happening today?
Speaker: Of course, I am doing something about the trauma that's happening today. But I really understand how if we don't address that past in the right way, not in a way that uses, abuses, manipulates, demonizes and dehumanizes and guilts and shames so that I can gain more today.
Speaker: But to look at it as the disaster that happened, look at it and and what does grace look like? What does forgiveness look like? What does the ability to move on look like? And this is the kind of leadership that we are missing today.
Speaker: And I would say that is the leadership that is missing mainly on the Israeli side. The Palestinian leadership is a disaster. i'll I'll tell you that. so I have no shame in saying this. As a Palestinian, our leadership is ah has been a disaster.
Speaker: where They haven't given us anything as Palestinians. but at the and But at the same time, who is the one that holds on to power? Who is the one that decides everything? Who is the one that can decide tomorrow if the Palestinian president actually stays in Ramallah or is kicked out?
Speaker: And they could do that. They could actually come in. Two Jeeps can come in and take the Palestinian president and throw him to Jordan tomorrow. And nobody will say anything about it. They have the power. And those who have the power need to understand the responsibility that comes with this power.
Speaker: And then this is the invitation. This is the invitation. The Israelis need to do this work because honestly, at the end of the day, and I'm hearing this from so many Israelis and so many Jews in this land and around the world, what this government is doing and the policies around this government and the ideology that this government is pushing and forming is destroying Judaism itself.
Speaker: It's destroying Israel itself. When you are beginning to see countries look at Israel the way they are looking at it now, and that whole image of the only democracy in the Middle East, the only one that carries certain values in the Middle East, the only one that respects human rights, all of these stories are beginning to fall apart.
Speaker: and that shadow is beginning to emerge this is what people are seeing many israelis are leaving this land not because of what israel is doing to the palestinians because they're afraid of what this government might do to them people who come from progressive thinking from liberal thoughts including many of my friends israeli friends they say we're out of here because after they finish with you they're going to come after us so So this is this is a disaster on so many levels.
Speaker: And systems of tyranny eventually fail and fall. And most of the time they fall by imploding. This is what happens mostly to dictatorship. It implodes from within.
Speaker: um And so so the disasters are are still coming one after the other. And at the same time, I do remain in the question, will leadership emerge in the midst of this disaster that can actually say, yeah, we need to create a different future, create a better future, come together, reconcile, heal our wounds together.
Speaker: It's always possible. It's not a pipe dream to have this. This is this is why Mandela needed a the clerk in South Africa. He needed an Afrikaner leader, the president of South Africa at that time, to acknowledge apartheid, to acknowledge that we have done injustice.
Speaker: And in that acknowledgement, they were able to meet and do their best to try to resolve the system of apartheid that existed in their time. And this is what we are missing as Palestinians now.
Speaker: What does your work look like today? Well, my life is still committed to nonviolence. I still believe in nonviolence more than anything. And i would say even as a result of October 7th, I'm more committed to nonviolence than any time before because I see the disasters that violence can create on all sides.
Speaker: I say this. And my work is also moving and shifting to spaces where I'm trying to look at this from a bigger picture as well. Looking at this as as, I think I started with this, what is the being of the human being? What makes us who we are?
Speaker: Why do we continue to live generation after generation in a violent situation, in wars and conflicts, seeing the disasters that happen every time, And always thinking that this is going to be the one that's going to end all other wars. If it's the First World war the Second World War, ah genocide in Gaza, ah you name it, that this is this is going to be After this, everything is fine. And then the next generation, we're back into this war.
Speaker: So a big part of my work in in the last maybe 10 years has been understanding the collective human consciousness. That consciousness, what I call the prevailing consciousness that actually makes us all behave this way.
Speaker: you know we We're were're talking about here as a as a very harsh point of violence, but but it's happening in the United States, it's happening in Germany, it's happening in South Africa, it's happening in Kenya.
Speaker: Disasters led by humans towards other humans are happening everywhere. And so there's a prevailing consciousness that I say we have inherited and have been living in for thousands of years that causes us to seek separation, focus on identity and not collectivity, ah focus on systems of domination and control, using fear as a tool of how we relate to each other.
Speaker: This is what we might even call patriarchal systems and structures that are based on separation, hierarchy, fear, domination, avoiding, ah negotiating political solutions, but seeing what the benefit is behind them. Pax Romano, you the great Roman peace that was introduced. Stability with control and manipulation. This is what the system has been for 2,000 years.
Speaker: And then I look at a man who lived here 2,000 years ago, a rabbi. who was born not far from where I live. People name him Yeshua, people know him as Jesus, in Arabic, Yesur, who really was able to see that collective consciousness, that what that prevailing consciousness, and offer something alternative to it.
Speaker: What he referred to as the kingdom, the kingdom of God is at hand, the kingdom of God is within you, let your kingdom come. And I began in my research to understand that his engagement in looking at the kingdom wasn't about what happens to us after we die, because he actually said you could live it here and now.
Speaker: And he actually gave the tools of how we bring that consciousness into our being and into our collective being. The consciousness that is embedded in unity, in love, in coming together, in justice, in equality.
Speaker: What he actually promoted in his times. This is what he was teaching, the kingdom that he was teaching. And that he wanted his disciples to also bring into the world itself.
Speaker: So this this has been my biggest research and and my biggest sort of laboratories living in this land where these teachings happened 2,000 years ago. And really asking the question, if if Jesus was actually here today, how would how would he deal with with this situation? How would he deal with this reality?
Speaker: and And one thing that I realized is Jesus never turned his eye away from those who suffered. He always went to them. He always closed the gap with them. He always honored them.
Speaker: He always took care of them. And at the same time, he stood very, very strong against those who were creating the violence, creating the injustice, including his own Jewish leadership at that time.
Speaker: And ultimately, the greatest thing he did was when he went to the temple and turned the tables over. in the um the belly of the beast this is where it is and then he knew somebody that does this crucifixion is your judgment there there is no running away from that and he still did this so he understood that we could move into a new consciousness by not bypassing and escaping the reality that we live in And this is, I think, the challenge that I have with many sort of new age movements and spiritual movements that are emerging, especially in the West, where it's all about bypassing, bypassing injustice, bypassing racism, bypassing gender inequality and saying, I just want to form, you know, my inner little space of peace and align my chakras and and everything will be fine. and Yes, we we need to find that inner peace and we need to align our consciousness in the right way.
Speaker: And we are called also to stand against those who are committing violence and injustice and and liberating them from the oppression that they are causing others as well. so So this has been my biggest movement in the last few years. And then that that led to me writing a book called The Sacred Awakening, Reclaiming Christ Consciousness.
Speaker: Because I think, honestly, even as a Christian, I say this, one of the biggest disasters for the teachings of Jesus has been the church itself that came out of the system and structure of empire, of the Roman Empire, and has been dominated for 2,000 years.
Speaker: And so for me, yes, this inquiry of if Jesus was here today, how would he deal with this? What would he say? How would he have compassion and care for the people that are suffering in Gaza and at the same time not demonize and dehumanize those who are causing the suffering?
Speaker: but tol us to also be very clear with them and saying, you are doing wrong. You are doing wrong. And what what, again, he told his leaders at that time as well. This, what you're talking about here, your research and your work, would you describe it as a religious project, as in
Speaker: a base requirement is that I share your faith, your religious convictions, or would you describe it as something separate, like a historical project, social psychology, something else where maybe some of the more fundamental or more important aspects are a shared set of values, even if I don't share the same religious convictions or religious beliefs?
Speaker: yeah the The sad reality, I see more people living what I refer to as Christ consciousness outside of Christianity than in Christianity itself. ah Because Christianity has become a doctrine, has become a dogma, has become only a belief system without following the teachings. If ah if you're a Christian and you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, you're gonna that's all you need to do.
Speaker: you You're guaranteed a ticket to eternal heaven. That's the promise, right? So the the teachings become secondary. you know They're like, if you would like to do these teachings, if you'd like to engage in peacemaking, if you'd like to live your life in meekness, if you'd like to grief and mourn when there is suffering, at me you could do that, but that's not going to be the determinant of and And so Christianity has put in the sense the cart before the horse in this.
Speaker: And my invitation actually is to Christians in a way to repent and to return to the teachings. of the man that they claim to follow. And if you believe in him or not believe in him, that's your your own prerogative, that's your own theology that you could take into account.
Speaker: But the teachings themselves, and so for me, the teachings of Jesus, and I dare to use this world, are universal. They are teachings for every human being to live and to reach the point of living the best capacity of their life as they can as a human being.
Speaker: this This is what the teachings are all about. Christ consciousness, kingdom consciousness is not about belief. It's about how we live life on this earth. and And this is why Jesus was challenging the religious institutions at that time.
Speaker: Because they had those teachings actually in Judaism. He didn't bring any new teachings. The Torah actually had these teachings, but the religious leaders were more about focusing on power, on money, and control, and fear, which sadly is what all religions at some point become.
Speaker: This is what Christianity, and I say this sadly, has become. And so when people are studying Christ consciousness and the teachings, they're not studying it as a Christian teaching. They're not invited to be Christian in this.
Speaker: They're just invited to be human. And as humans, we've all messed up. We've all messed up. You have messed up, Eric, I'm sure. And I have messed up many, many times in my life.
Speaker: and And we need grace, and we need forgiveness, and we need peace in our lives. And we need to bring this peace to others. this is This is what Jesus was about. and And from that, we see what emerges.
Speaker: And from that, yes, your belief systems beyond that become your belief systems. That when you do these works and you believe in Christ as your savior, then yes, you might end up in heaven, but not avoiding one or the other because he came to teach.
Speaker: He came to teach us. see I mean, I sometimes think about it. If he came just to sacrifice himself, he would have just done it. Why did he teach all of his teachings? Why did he do the Sermon on the Mount? Why did he live a certain example of how to live life on this earth? Why did he meet though the Samaritan woman? Why did he heal the people?
Speaker: He could have just said, you know, I'm here, I've been sent by God, I'm going sacrifice my life for your salvation, and you have to believe in me, and that's it. He would have made life much easier for all of us.
Speaker: But he taught because he wanted us to live a better way on this earth. That's what he was teaching. All the teachings are about how do we live as good human beings within ourselves and with each other.
Speaker: And it is important for us to begin to reclaim and refollow these teachings. Again, no matter what your faith or non-faith is. Sammy, if someone was to take away just one thing from this conversation or remember one thing, is there something you would want to leave a listener with?
Speaker: If anything to leave with this conversation, I would say is that we are living very, very difficult times in our human collective.
Speaker: and And we need a shift in our consciousness in how to step out of this. We are living disaster after disaster. And for us, we cannot remain silent and complacent as we see these disasters manifest in different parts of the world.
Speaker: And so there is no duality in saying I want to seek peace and at the same time i want to resist systems of oppression. It is not this or that.
Speaker: I can seek peace in my life. I can seek well-being in my life and at the same time stand against the systems and structures that are hurting other people and not to have shame and fear from that.
Speaker: this is This is my my greatest message to to anybody listening to this. It's not about siding with the Palestinians or siding with Israelis. As far as I'm concerned as Americans, well, I don't want you to side with anybody.
Speaker: But look into your neighborhood. Look into your community. Look into those who are being profiled racially. Look into those who are being marginalized because of their ethnicity.
Speaker: what are you doing about them? Are you turning an eye and crossing the road when you see them on the other side? Or are you engaging with them? Are you closing the gap between them like Jesus would have done and then standing against those who could also be from your own racial and ideological and even religious background and say, no, this is wrong.
Speaker: This cannot continue. The more people that do that in the United States, believe me, Eric, the better my life will be here in Palestine. The more people that stand up for the most marginalized in the United States and say, this is wrong, these are not our values, and we will not allow fear to control us, the more my life and the life of Palestinians and Israelis will change in this land.
Speaker: Sami, is there somewhere you would want a listener to go after this, whether it's a website or following you on social media or something like that? Yeah, definitely. i'm available on social media. There is the Sacred Awakening ah Instagram, Facebook, my social media, sammy.b.awad. People can follow me there as well.
Speaker: On YouTube, i talk a lot about the teachings of Jesus. I go deep into the different parables and how they are connected to peacemaking and shifting consciousness, understanding the real essence of what the teachings of Jesus was. I think many listeners would like that.
Speaker: There's also the book that you could also purchase and read and and connect with me after you read the book. I have so many people reaching out to me after the book and to telling me how their life has changed or i have questions about it. And I'm really open to engaging and answering these questions.
Speaker: And the book is available on Amazon. It's The Sacred Awakening, Reclaiming Christ Consciousness that is also available online to purchase. Well, I will have links to all of those places in the show notes. so I hope people will check them out. And I read the book. So hopefully someone listening to this will check out your book.
Speaker: Sammy, As we said, there is a lot more that can than can fit in a single conversation. But I appreciate you making the time for this one and for explaining and helping me understand as much as you could. So thank you for being here today.
Speaker: Thank you, Eric, for the invitation. It's an honor for me.
