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Escape Velocity with Elizabeth Bawol, Senior Brand + Creative Director
21 Plays1 month ago
In this episode, Tracey speaks with Elizabeth Bawol, Creative Director of Brand and Strategy at Wide Eye Creative. With a career spanning work at Planned Parenthood, AmeriCorps, and Wide Eye, Elizabeth shares her experiences shaping major campaigns, including the Democratic National Convention. She discusses the messy yet rewarding process of creative work, the importance of strategic storytelling, and how the best creative breakthroughs come from going through the hard parts rather than looking for shortcuts.
The conversation covers the pitfalls of design by committee, how great creative gets watered down, the role of AI in design and brand strategy, and why trusting the creative process is essential. If you’re a designer, strategist, or creative leader, this episode offers a masterclass in balancing strategy, risk-taking, and audience empathy to create work that truly resonates.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction to Elizabeth Baywall
00:00:08
Tracey Halvorsen
Well, thank you all for being here again for my conversation with Elizabeth Baywall. She is a creative director at Wide Eye Creative of Brandon Strategy.
00:00:21
Tracey Halvorsen
And did I say all that right so far?
00:00:22
Elizabeth
I was all right. Yep.
00:00:25
Tracey Halvorsen
um I have known Elizabeth for many years and have admired her work and the professional journey she has gone on um from places like AmeriCorps, right, here in Baltimore, which I'm curious to hear a little bit more about.
00:00:39
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:00:41
Elizabeth
Yep.
00:00:42
Tracey Halvorsen
I didn't realize you were part of that. um We both share a common history of Maryland Institute College of Art, and then you spent some wonderful time, it sounds like, at Planned Parenthood leading their creative strategy and direction, and then over to Wideye, where you've worked on some really high-profile campaigns.
00:00:50
Elizabeth
Right.
00:01:04
Tracey Halvorsen
Most recently, the Democratic National Convention, all of the grand and yeah, so it's been quite a ride.
00:01:09
Elizabeth
That's right.
00:01:13
Tracey Halvorsen
um And today, I think we are going to dive into a lot of different topics and we'll see where it goes. But um as always, just kind of talking about how we as creative people, as strategists, as people that are just always growing and trying to learn and do better, we know that we always need to breakthrough or as you're your website said, collapse the box.
00:01:42
Elizabeth
Mm-hmm.
00:01:42
Tracey Halvorsen
ah Great quote.
00:01:44
Tracey Halvorsen
ah Collapse, what is it? Collapse the box. ah Yes, think outside the box, collapse the box and take a fucking shove knife
00:01:50
Elizabeth
Take a knife to it. Good Banksy quote.
Challenges in the Creative Process
00:01:55
Elizabeth
Attributed to Banksy. I presume it was actually me. Get in here firsthand.
00:01:55
Tracey Halvorsen
to it.
00:02:00
Tracey Halvorsen
That's great. um So thanks for being here to talk with me today and I loved some of the things that you sent over that were kind of on your mind um and you know one of the things I guess just over your career as a as a creative has there been anything that you've kind of
00:02:12
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:02:26
Tracey Halvorsen
held onto as a tried and trusted, like, if I go to this well, I'm going to find the answers that help me get to wherever it is I'm trying to get to or whatever, through through whatever blocker um you're encountering, whether that's in work or in life.
00:02:39
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:02:43
Elizabeth
That's a really great question. I feel like, um you know, this whole career of mine, um it's not necessarily been strategic. It's actually been quite a wandering journey. So going with my gut has been a big part of that. And it sometimes has led me to great places and sometimes um not, but for the most part, yeah um you know, it's a win to follow your gut. I think that, um you know, it's not the sexiest answer, um but almost without fail after a few years in the business and a few years of really professionally like making things, um sort of that knowledge that the only way to get there is through. like You can't get around the hard work. You can't get around going through it all and the hard parts and there's always going to be hard parts when you're creating something.
00:03:31
Elizabeth
and innovating, um but trusting that sort of process, even if the process isn't really rigid, doesn't always follow the same steps. I know from the brand side, it almost never follows the same steps. I'm curious how you feel from the interactive and digital space too, but um so like it's trusting the process and knowing that if you roll up your sleeves and do the work and go through, um you'll arrive somewhere because you've put in the work. And I think that that,
00:04:00
Elizabeth
um that pans out almost every time.
00:04:03
Tracey Halvorsen
That's
Value of Experience in Creative Work
00:04:03
Tracey Halvorsen
a great answer. um I think I've got that book sitting over my bookshelf. The only way is through. um And I guess, you know, that's why the the good things wouldn't feel so good if it was just easy to get them all the time.
00:04:16
Elizabeth
Yeah, I find a lot of people are sort of like looking for the formula, especially like young in your career, you know, it's like, well, but it may be next time if we follow these steps will be easier.
00:04:17
Tracey Halvorsen
um
00:04:25
Elizabeth
And I think the answer is, it just isn't easy.
00:04:29
Tracey Halvorsen
I know it's it's amazing to me that we as a species just continue to look for the magic pill. um And we're still we still waste a lot of time and money believing that it exists.
00:04:35
Elizabeth
Yeah, we do.
00:04:40
Elizabeth
That magic pill is just time and work.
00:04:41
Tracey Halvorsen
and Yeah, and pain and fear right because it's it's also a lot of unknown the through art.
00:04:44
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:04:48
Elizabeth
Dead ends, right? Yeah.
00:04:51
Tracey Halvorsen
There's no guarantee of when and how you're going to get through it. So you have to be willing to
00:04:56
Elizabeth
Right.
00:04:59
Tracey Halvorsen
enter into a very scary place. And I would say from a business perspective, it's even scarier because how do you put scope around that?
00:05:03
Elizabeth
yeah
00:05:06
Elizabeth
Yep.
00:05:10
Elizabeth
Well, it's true and there's a bravery and a faith, right? And if you're not necessarily generally a person of faith, like having faith in that is such a deep sort of an experience.
00:05:13
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:05:19
Elizabeth
I think that um working for makers in particular can be really helpful because I do think that people that have been makers And then became directors or became owners and things of companies. Like at least they know that there's no clear path that it's not like a, it's not like a formula. You can just apply to everything. I think that can be really helpful.
00:05:40
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, it's really interesting. um You know, as I've been, you know, talking to other people who've, who've had long successful careers, and we we get into the topic of like, what you should charge for an hour.
00:05:53
Tracey Halvorsen
And I'm like, well, your hour is a lot more valuable than someone who's just starting out hour.
00:05:55
Elizabeth
Hmm.
00:06:00
Tracey Halvorsen
um Because it's even though you still have your throughs that you've got to go through, right, like, you're a lot more likely to
00:06:01
Elizabeth
Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:09
Tracey Halvorsen
kind of have an amazing idea in five minutes.
00:06:13
Elizabeth
Right.
00:06:14
Tracey Halvorsen
um Does that mean that that you charge for the five minutes?
00:06:17
Elizabeth
Or what it's worth.
00:06:18
Tracey Halvorsen
You know, that it's like the entire, it's like Picasso saying, you know, scribbled on the on the napkin and charged $10,000 for it.
00:06:23
Elizabeth
Yep.
00:06:26
Tracey Halvorsen
And the lady said, that just took you 30 seconds to make it. And he said, it's taken me 65 years to make it, yeah.
00:06:29
Elizabeth
Right. And a lifetime.
00:06:33
Elizabeth
It's so true.
00:06:33
Tracey Halvorsen
So um along those lines, You know, what what advice do you give to the younger professionals that are coming into this field who are butting up against the deadlines and the deliverables? And yet, you know, that part of that process is the going through and the unknown.
00:06:56
Elizabeth
Yeah, it's so interesting because there's no amount of advice that teaches you or like hearing from me, you got to push through it. You will get there. Like you have to experience, I think doing that enough times and having success at the end of that road to know that that advice is sound.
00:07:13
Elizabeth
So it's really tough to just tell someone kind of starting out that they're going to hit it if they really put in the work and use the talent they have, but also trust the process.
00:07:14
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:07:25
Elizabeth
Um, I really kind of think that the only thing that teaches young people in in this business is really like the wins that they have and the failures that they have along the way. Like that's what gets you to a point of confidence that, you know, the hard work is worth it.
00:07:43
Tracey Halvorsen
Do you, ah do you get suspicious of it, of things being easy or like if things are seem a little too obvious? Like when do you, when do you, when do your spidey senses like kick in and, and you know, to start questioning things?
00:07:54
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:08:00
Elizabeth
That's really interesting. You mean like when guiding other people, like when younger people are in dinner?
00:08:04
Tracey Halvorsen
Well, yeah, especially when guiding other people because you know that like the last thing they want to do is hear that they need to like change something or revisit it.
00:08:10
Elizabeth
Right. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. I mean, I think that like, It's not so much that I get suspicious as like, you know, everybody can get lucky.
00:08:21
Elizabeth
There are people, you know, you'll get lucky, you'll have a good idea, or something, but will a breakthrough will happen early sometimes. It's just, that's gonna be the rarity, noge that's gonna be the exception, not the rule. So I'm a little distrustful of the folks that are kind of like, oh, well, I nailed it in the first half hour every time.
00:08:38
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:08:38
Elizabeth
um But also, you I think that the older you get, the less objective this work becomes too, because you're looking at, you know, if you really wanna do something different, you wanna really do some creative that breaks through, there has to be some sort of strategy guiding that.
00:08:55
Elizabeth
There has to be some deep understanding of who it's for um or who it's about or both, usually both, and sort of the intersection there.
00:08:56
Tracey Halvorsen
right
00:09:03
Elizabeth
And so you can measure it against, oh, does this just look cool? and just Or does this actually meet the measure of success that we have strategically? So I think it's easier to call out what does and doesn't work.
00:09:17
Elizabeth
Because it's not really all that subjective.
00:09:17
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah Well, here's another question for you. How much do you think that that foundation of strategy that, as you know, a good, exciting, innovative strategy that really does connect with, you know, the mission or the the vision or the authentic, like whatever it is, the brand, in a way that, like,
00:09:41
Elizabeth
you
00:09:45
Tracey Halvorsen
gets you know all the rockets firing, all the engines firing, and like it really does provide that velocity that you know will we'll make the the work better.
00:09:51
Elizabeth
yeah
00:09:56
Tracey Halvorsen
um Is that something that you think can be can be analyzed by and by an outsider who's just kind of experiencing it?
00:10:07
Tracey Halvorsen
Or do you think that's just something that's like a nuance and felt in the work, even though the people that are working on it have the briefs and have developed the strategy and all those things.
00:10:15
Elizabeth
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think that what's really interesting about strategy and what I think keeps me really engaged in it and trying to get better every time is that I don't know how often it's sort of the core sound bite that comes through in the analysis at the end of a strategic process. Like I think that that's helpful and often can be a great North star, but sometimes the things that I've seen designers on my team or brand creatives
00:10:51
Elizabeth
or even campaigners come to is like some part of the strategy that I didn't maybe even spend as much time on. So like some little nugget in the research or like some little piece that someone said in a global office that really resonated that unlocks the whole thing for them. So like I might look at strategy a little differently in that like while the analysis of a strategist is so important, there's just like a lot in that discovery journey that strategy journey that can unlock and I don't think you always know which piece it's going to be.
00:11:27
Elizabeth
I
Remote Work and Creativity
00:11:27
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah it does it reminds me of um one of the something David Ogilvie was talking about well when they when they he came up with the tagline for I think it was Mercedes or Rolls Royce or something and it was it was saying that the clock is like the the ticking of the clock is the loudest thing you'll hear in the car and it's something he picked up in like a you know very technical manual that the
00:11:27
Elizabeth
don't know if that answers your question.
00:11:29
Elizabeth
but
00:11:59
Tracey Halvorsen
people in the that were on the production line were reviewing for quality control.
00:11:59
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:12:03
Tracey Halvorsen
And he said, like, learn everything you can about your clients, you know, product, business, whatever it might be, because you never know where that that little yeah of inspiration and that like that little thing said so perfectly what no giant, you know, obvious strategy could.
00:12:14
Elizabeth
yeah Yeah, exactly.
00:12:24
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:12:24
Tracey Halvorsen
And that was about time, right? Spending the time with the client, having those and doing the research.
00:12:31
Elizabeth
yeah
00:12:32
Tracey Halvorsen
But that brings me to another question, which is, you know, now that we've had COVID and everyone's virtual, how important do you think discovery and research is or like getting a sense for a client since, you know, you work with clients too.
00:12:47
Tracey Halvorsen
um How much do you think in-person time together is important?
00:12:52
Elizabeth
Yeah, I might be a little bit of an anomaly here, but I do my work and have since before the pandemic. I think 98% of it is probably remote, including the work with my creative teams and the work with my clients. and you know i I have been able to build connections and build relationships and workshop did interact, at you know, do interactive workshops with groups of people up to 30 and like, no actual real post-it notes. And, um you know, whiteboard, I think there's just tools now. Like, there's tools, there's human connection. I think you have to be of my generation, which I wouldn't reveal, in that I'll pick up the phone and ask. I will get on a Zoom and chat through something. I'll work it out on an online whiteboard. It's not always in written communication.
00:13:45
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:13:45
Elizabeth
Um, but I, I don't consider it a serious barrier. I really don't as much as I'd love to get in a room with people and put some sticky notes on the wall and like, look at a big visual landscape. you There's just so many tools. So it doesn't really, I would, I'd be interested to hear how the teams I've worked with over the years.
00:14:02
Elizabeth
have done, but like, you know, when I was at Planned Parenthood and I was building a team, I was in Maryland. Part of the team was in DC. Part of the team was in New York. We then ended up going virtual entirely. And you know, there's, we were working with 20 people at any given time and some agencies and they were all over. And I don't think it was a barrier. If anything, the quiet time I had in my office or studio when I wasn't in an office space was the most valuable to my coming up with ideas and being able to get to a get to a place. So for me, you know, the balance of introvert and extrovert that I am, I haven't found it a barrier.
00:14:39
Tracey Halvorsen
That's great. um Along the same lines, how important do you think it is to do, to spend time or have interests that are like completely, you know, have nothing to do with your work or, um and not just hobbies, but like how often or how important do you think it is to indulge what might be seen seen as like fringe interests or rabbit holes um to go down?
00:15:09
Elizabeth
I mean, I think that's potentially the whole game. That's like the ah real, that's where a lot of the real kind of juice comes from. I think the one thing I would say now that I live where I live, which is kind of rural and away from a metropolitan area for the first time, it's like, I miss the sound of a city. Like I miss being able to walk around the city and see, hear, see, observe the kind of like noise and buzz that happens there and culture that happens there. Like that's my one sort of like real missing piece here in the quiet. um But like, I think, I think those rabbit holes, those distractions are actually where
00:15:49
Elizabeth
a lot of the connections happen that lead to great ideas.
00:15:52
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah. Yeah, it's like, you have to have the faith, right?
00:15:54
Elizabeth
And I don't even think you know those connections are necessarily happening. It's just in creative brains, these little pieces find, find a home years later.
00:16:03
Tracey Halvorsen
Yes.
00:16:03
Elizabeth
I mean, I lived in Baltimore for so many years and I still write things down.
00:16:04
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah
00:16:08
Elizabeth
I heard a kid say, or like, you know, like little bits of things that I experienced there. It just like became a part of me and I still think about it quite a bit.
00:16:20
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, I guess um all those experiences and rabbit holes do kind of they their their ingredients um that you're just adding to your your
00:16:27
Elizabeth
yeah
00:16:31
Tracey Halvorsen
your soup, ah your your people soup, your, yeah.
00:16:33
Elizabeth
yeah
00:16:35
Tracey Halvorsen
um So I think this is this a good time to kind of move over and talk about AI as we're, you know, we're talking about, you know, how important it is to do the research and get the strategy right and The only way is through and all these things that are really about you know and and having other interests where you take deep dives and all this stuff kind of sticks and and becomes part of who you are.
Role of AI in Creativity
00:17:05
Tracey Halvorsen
Now you've got generative AI and all of these tools that can produce stuff that passes a lot of sniff tests um at at such an amazing speed
00:17:08
Elizabeth
Well.
00:17:13
Elizabeth
Well.
00:17:23
Tracey Halvorsen
that like the the amount of of shallow qua you know the amount of shallow stuff um is hard to fathom.
00:17:38
Tracey Halvorsen
I gotta sneeze. Ah, see, I mentioned it on camera and it just totally disappeared.
00:17:43
Elizabeth
It stops. We'll come back later.
00:17:44
Tracey Halvorsen
Wow. um
00:17:48
Tracey Halvorsen
And so I feel like we're there's this pressure point right where everyone's like, oh, well, I don't need to pay for this time or these thinkers or these creatives or these writers because the AI can just do it.
00:17:57
Elizabeth
Sure.
00:18:01
Tracey Halvorsen
um And the AI can do a whole bunch of stuff. But what's good?
00:18:06
Elizabeth
sure
00:18:09
Tracey Halvorsen
And then how do you push AI to like really develop deep, well-thought-out um well-executed ideas when it's really oriented towards like kind of spewing a rainbow of of crap.
00:18:20
Elizabeth
Mm hmm.
00:18:25
Elizabeth
Yeah, I mean, that's it.
00:18:26
Tracey Halvorsen
you know had
00:18:27
Elizabeth
This is like, so there's so many questions in this question. Um, ah you know, AI, so far, even generative AI, it's all derivative.
00:18:38
Elizabeth
And to me, it's a lot, it's a great, all of these tools are great tools in our toolbox, right? But it's not, it's so far, not technology that is bringing
00:18:51
Elizabeth
the kind of idea generation, the kind of genius that can come from authentic lived experience. um And it's not coming up with ideas that are new, right? Like it's always going to be derived on what existed. And so there's a limit to which that could ever be as smart or as innovative or as interesting as what is something new in the mix, right?
00:19:20
Elizabeth
And to me, it's like having a great researcher on your team, but not necessarily a great ideater, like having someone that can pull stuff so quickly and frame it up, right?
00:19:29
Tracey Halvorsen
Right.
00:19:29
Elizabeth
But it's all from what has been done before. And I don't know about you, but in most of the rooms I'm in where we're trying to come up with something that really resonates, it's about the current moment. and what's next and it misses that sweat next piece to me.
00:19:43
Elizabeth
Now, I also think that, you know, there's a very small part of the population that knows the difference between really great creative and what AI could spew out.
00:19:43
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah
00:19:52
Elizabeth
And I think that's maybe where there's a slippery slope and sort of danger is that, you know, it's sort of like the slow boil. um Are we going to lower our standards or lower the kind of innovation that happens sort of slowly because of the way i ah AI generates ideas, right? Like, are we going to lose touch with that really, the really genius types of creative, the really good stuff? Because there's so much crap or so much that's derivative. And I think that's sort of where you're seeing that already with misinformation. And I just think that like, that's where sort of the risk is that and just the copying of really original artists over time, but
00:20:33
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, and I think um this this great sort of copying or sameness has been you know seeping into everything um already.
00:20:49
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:20:50
Tracey Halvorsen
so But I do think there is um there's a a lot of people that really want to embrace that. And I think it's probably because it lowers the barrier to entry, and nobody wants to have to work that hard to get to great creative, right?
00:21:04
Tracey Halvorsen
Because it is scary.
00:21:04
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:21:05
Tracey Halvorsen
It is hard. um So it's a lot easier. It's sort of like when the digital cameras came around in the 80s, in the like late 80s, early 90s, and all the photographers were like, you know, the blast for me.
00:21:09
Elizabeth
Hmm.
00:21:19
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:21:20
Tracey Halvorsen
And all of a sudden, everybody's like, I'm a professional photographer. um
00:21:23
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:21:25
Tracey Halvorsen
In the end, you know you still really want a a real artist, a real trained photographer to work with. not just But there was a there was many years, and I think the same thing happened with web design and all the design and desktop publishing programs that became available.
00:21:40
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:21:45
Tracey Halvorsen
All of a sudden, everyone's like, oh, my cousin in the basement is doing my brand. you know it's like So now that's going to happen on a lot of fronts.
00:21:48
Elizabeth
can yeah it's there
00:21:55
Tracey Halvorsen
um which is scary if it's like oh we're doing medical research with uh yeah joe's doing it on uh chat gpt you know we don't need to pay right
00:21:55
Elizabeth
yeah
00:22:04
Elizabeth
yeah You know, what's really interesting about that though is like, I do agree that it's like democratizing um, the world of creation, right? In a way that, you know, there's some good to that. There are folks that you might not have heard from, right? Or, or you've seen anything from that might be able to get into the game and and into the mix, right? And come up with some really ingenious things using AI as a tool. And like, there's still going to be, you know, like, I think that authentic things and authentic art and ideas will become a currency and a differentiator.
00:22:40
Elizabeth
in a bit more dramatic way, like you're saying about photography, real photographers, real deep crafts people are still needed, right? And I think those ideas and those creations become more rare and therefore stand out more because there's so much more noise, right? If everyone's got a microphone, everyone's got a camera, everyone's got chat GPT, everyone's gonna start to sound the same more and more. Like it's just sort of this dull roar in my opinion and like,
00:23:06
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:23:07
Elizabeth
It makes people that really have that spark, that ability to make new things stand out a little bit more. And there's hope in that, I think.
00:23:17
Tracey Halvorsen
I love that. um You've given me some more hope. I tend to and can get a little cynical about it all. um Along those lines, how do you how do you engage with AI and the tools in your day-to-day?
00:23:31
Elizabeth
Yeah. I mean, I think. So far I find it just like an incredible tool for research. If I double check it, you know, like I just find like, Hmm, I remember I heard this thing and I want to use it for inspiration and I can find it so easily or like find us a hundred versions of it so easily and learn more.
00:23:48
Elizabeth
So like just from like a groundbreaking sort of like baseline of research, I find it fascinating.
00:23:54
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah
00:23:54
Elizabeth
Um, I think, you know, I think it's really interesting for tone of voice and writing work. um and like ideating i almost use it as like someone to brainstorm with if that makes sense but like very rarely does it spark the idea if ever um but it's kind of like throwing a lot at the wall and having somebody in there that can just kind of put the one hundred sticky notes up you know um i find it a lot less useful on the visual front i just find it so generic and i find it um
00:24:10
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah. that's really yeah
00:24:26
Elizabeth
lacks any humanity and I just think that maybe the technology is still catching up and hopefully ah there are some boundaries being put in place around copyrighted and artist work because that worries me a lot.
00:24:40
Elizabeth
But I don't find it as helpful on the visual for it yet. I'm curious about you though.
00:24:45
Tracey Halvorsen
of You said something about it's it's a great sort of brainstorm or a research partner, um which I totally agree with, but that it's it's rarely like giving you the the nugget of the idea that you're gonna be pulling on, right?
00:25:02
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:25:04
Tracey Halvorsen
It's like, it gives you lots of different threads to pull on once you've given it the idea.
00:25:05
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:25:07
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:25:10
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:25:11
Tracey Halvorsen
Um, or, or talked about it or been like, how does this sound? What is this? Yeah. Give me different perspectives. Um, what am I missing? Like who would argue this?
00:25:19
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:25:19
Tracey Halvorsen
What would a counter, you know, an argument to this be?
00:25:21
Elizabeth
yeah
00:25:23
Tracey Halvorsen
Um, what I, so yeah, I mean, I use it in the, in very similar ways. Um, I, I'll ask it to give me like 20 variations on a headline for a blog post just to be like,
00:25:38
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:25:40
Tracey Halvorsen
what might sound different. um If I ask it, you know, if I just say, though, like, here's the blog article, give me a great title.
00:25:52
Elizabeth
Right.
00:25:52
Tracey Halvorsen
um It's just usually pretty shitty.
00:25:54
Elizabeth
can Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's really true.
00:25:59
Tracey Halvorsen
Somebody said, it's like all flowers and no heart. And it is a very flowery.
00:26:03
Elizabeth
Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, if you think about it too, though, just when you when you think about the amount of information out there that's been amassed, it's pretty whitewashed stuff, right?
00:26:07
Tracey Halvorsen
Even
00:26:14
Elizabeth
Like there's so much less diversity in our just internet archives and like this the the folks, you know,
00:26:15
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:26:25
Elizabeth
with the power and with the privilege to archive things online. Like it skews white, it skews generic, it skews probably Eurocentric. Like I don't have like the data behind that so much, but I've seen what comes out when you ask it to create an image, you know, and I've seen how um lacking a nuance it can be.
00:26:46
Elizabeth
It just feels like you're asking a robot to do a thing. Like, and it's very, very generic.
00:26:51
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:26:53
Elizabeth
And that's just, I think, you know, in part, not all the voices are equally elevated.
00:27:00
Tracey Halvorsen
Yes, and that leads me to the question, have you tried creating a custom GPT at all.
00:27:11
Tracey Halvorsen
Because the idea behind that is you know you can train it on your own or or someone else's you know voice and information and books and all of that.
00:27:20
Elizabeth
a Yeah.
00:27:21
Tracey Halvorsen
And then you're you're sort of supposed to be kind of working in this purity bubble of you know just whoever it is that you've trained it on.
00:27:27
Elizabeth
Yeah, I have.
00:27:30
Tracey Halvorsen
um Have you explored much of that?
00:27:32
Elizabeth
And I, you know, I think I do think again, it's like further along in voice that it is in visual.
00:27:37
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:27:38
Elizabeth
But I still find it very flat and almost almost cliche in a weird way. Like I often find that sometimes the sound bites just don't add up to the same way.
00:27:45
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah
00:27:51
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, they're cringeworthy often.
00:27:53
Elizabeth
Yeah, like you have to really, really check. Like, and I, what's funny is I think a lot of people are using it as a tool on that silver bullet and they're not, you know, like the cover letters and like, I think there's a lot of folks using it that are not checking it, but the the signs are all there.
00:28:02
Tracey Halvorsen
Oh, yeah.
00:28:07
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, pro tip, do not use it for your cover letter.
00:28:10
Elizabeth
Yeah, please don't, please. We all can go.
00:28:12
Tracey Halvorsen
Another thing too, don't let it just rewrite. It's very It's very pushy. It will just take liberty and rewrite your stuff.
00:28:17
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:28:20
Tracey Halvorsen
If you don't say specifically, don't rewrite it.
00:28:21
Elizabeth
Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:25
Tracey Halvorsen
Tell me where and why you might make a change, whether that's grammar or flow or tone.
00:28:29
Elizabeth
Yeah. Totally.
00:28:33
Tracey Halvorsen
But I want to see your process and I want to know what you're recommending because 90% of it I'm going to ignore because it'll strip the personality and realness out of it.
00:28:42
Elizabeth
It really is about how skilled and I think smart the people are that are using it. And so that's where it gets a little worrisome, potentially.
00:28:54
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, I mean, there's a there's a long tail element of this that builds on you know all the other long tails that have created that have been created um where you're just going to have, you know they were shallow little pockets, right?
00:29:12
Tracey Halvorsen
of Even if it was complete you know conspiracy theory or fake news or whatever, they were still limited in how how much, how much the volume could be in each one of those little kind of fringe
00:29:21
Elizabeth
Sure. How amazing. Yeah, totally.
00:29:24
Tracey Halvorsen
marketets And I think the the the ability of for AI to create and generate so much stuff, again, like I said, that passes the sniff test to your average viewer or reader, ah that's going to make for a very very interesting future, right?
00:29:47
Elizabeth
Yeah. And I mean, we have to really watch, I think, to to maintain a discerning eye and ear, right? Like that's going to take effort. That's going to take work because they it's going to get better. The noise is going to get more consistent.
00:30:02
Tracey Halvorsen
So this goes back to an interesting question that I used to ask, you know, years ago. I was like, why is it that someone who, you know, is not an artist, but just, you know, likes Monet's, right?
00:30:17
Tracey Halvorsen
And has a Monet calendar in their kitchen and just really likes the pretty pictures.
00:30:19
Elizabeth
um one Yeah.
00:30:23
Tracey Halvorsen
That person will You know, nine times out of 10, if there's going to be a big Monet exhibit coming into the museum near that person, that might be the thing that like they might go to a museum to see those paintings in real life.
00:30:35
Elizabeth
Mm hmm.
00:30:39
Tracey Halvorsen
Why? Does someone who is not like an avid art fan, but is the the buyer of the calendars, you know what compels them to become that crossover?
00:30:50
Tracey Halvorsen
I want to engage with something in real life. And if we take that question and then move it to where we are today, how much do you think people are going to care
Audience Perception of AI Content
00:31:05
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:31:06
Tracey Halvorsen
if they're you know the the Super Bowl ad they're watching was created by humans or created by AI?
00:31:16
Elizabeth
I mean, this is like the optimist pessimist on my shoulder here and I have to like decide which way humanity is going to go. So it's a very big question. I mean, ultimately. When it comes to a Super Bowl ad, who cares when it comes to a politician?
00:31:35
Elizabeth
Speaking in a crowd it matters a lot right so like that's where Like I tend to agree with you that Just like folks aren't checking the sources of what they're resharing on whatever their favorite social media platform is but a Lot of people just don't care where it came from they care What friend of theirs or perceived friend of theirs shared it right so this sort of democratizing has made it
00:32:02
Tracey Halvorsen
Right.
00:32:05
Elizabeth
information is so peer to peer that like, whether or not it's true or false or AI or real production. And I do think AI will probably reduce the need for real production and that industry will be really deeply affected.
00:32:21
Elizabeth
But like, I think that it's just going to be a lot harder to tell what the truth is.
00:32:21
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:32:27
Elizabeth
And I, my negative side, my pessimistic side is saying, how much do people care whether this is true or not? how How much are people just choosing what they want to believe?
00:32:38
Elizabeth
And that's where I want to go open up a lemonade stand somewhere and leave society and live in the mountains.
00:32:39
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:32:45
Elizabeth
I don't really know what you do with that, but that is a big fear I have.
00:32:49
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, I think that's a I think that's a very universal fear. um ah Very, very real fear.
00:32:53
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:32:57
Tracey Halvorsen
And I don't think anyone really knows how it's going to go. Right.
00:33:00
Elizabeth
Nope.
00:33:01
Tracey Halvorsen
But um
00:33:01
Elizabeth
For sure.
00:33:05
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, i I mean, I hate to think that the most prophetic piece of media, you know, in the last 2000 years is going to end up being the movie Idiocracy, but it might be ah just where we're going.
00:33:20
Elizabeth
Yeah, right?
00:33:23
Tracey Halvorsen
um Everything is getting very easy for a lot of people. And so why? Yeah, why have to think outside the box or work that hard?
00:33:35
Elizabeth
On the other hand, maybe the voices that are shouting, oh my God, no, you have to look at this will be louder, right? Like maybe there's a possibility that the more the masses sort of follow this same formula What is that movie?
00:33:50
Elizabeth
not the ah Don't Look Out, sort of a similar kind of an idea.
00:33:52
Tracey Halvorsen
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Great movie.
00:33:54
Elizabeth
like There are people that are so like amazed and irate and loud about how like, no, this is crazy, pay attention. um I mean, the movie doesn't end well, but there's there's a part of me that thinks that like the smart voices, the discerning voices, the people that are seeing what's happening will find new and innovative ways to be heard.
00:34:16
Elizabeth
and The noise will be so consistent that possibly it'll be easier to hear them. I don't know. It'll be a very interesting, it's a very interesting time to be alive and creating.
00:34:24
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:34:27
Tracey Halvorsen
It is, it is. I mean, part of me thinks that everyone's just gonna kind of pull back from all of this connection and noise and um doubt.
00:34:41
Elizabeth
Sort of swing the other way.
00:34:42
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, I mean, and just sort of be like, yeah, let's let's meet in the pocket park and have lunch together and read the newspaper and find out what's going on you know in our neighborhoods.
00:34:52
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:34:52
Tracey Halvorsen
and um because the physical, you know, you kind of look around sometimes and a COVID was an interesting experience to go through with this, but you kind of look around and you're like, well, this is actually my world. So I could sit and spend all day reading about and freaking out about all this stuff, half of which may be real or not. But when I turn the computer off or I put my phone away, what's actually here?
00:35:17
Elizabeth
Yeah, right in front of me.
00:35:19
Tracey Halvorsen
And what matters, right? And how much of that am I missing, you know, or not tending to because of this?
00:35:24
Elizabeth
I think a lot of us during the pandemic really like had that same similar revelation.
00:35:30
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah. yeah
00:35:32
Elizabeth
That sort of forced isolation, forced slowing down, for lack of a better word, was pretty eye-opening, at least for me, and I know for some others.
00:35:40
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah. I was, I mean, I was okay with it. I didn't, I mean, obviously it didn't, like all the people, you know, getting sick and dying and it's terrifying what this, you know, just means in terms of the future and the next pandemic and all of that, but I didn't mind the slowing down and the kind of focusing on family and neighbors and who was around physical, your physical world.
00:35:44
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:35:54
Elizabeth
Right. What was right in front of you? Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:06
Tracey Halvorsen
um So it's, but, you know, with AI and everybody being remote and virtual now, it's a really different kind of career path for somebody who's just getting started.
Adapting to Industry Shifts
00:36:20
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:36:20
Tracey Halvorsen
And I'm you know and i'm seeing a lot of people that had good you know confidence in their careers and were more established suddenly be getting laid off or you know companies are shifting or downsizing in a lot of these areas, in the creative services, in digital, in brand, in marketing.
00:36:39
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:36:41
Tracey Halvorsen
So I think it's become a very volatile market and what you know what do you think people need to be focused on if they want to get into it? like What matters now that's different than what used to matter 20, 25 years ago?
00:36:57
Elizabeth
Yeah, I mean, I think like most things that silver bullet is not there. And I ah really wonder how my career would have gone had I had um those kinds of barriers.
00:37:08
Elizabeth
when I was a young creative, because so much about being strong in your creative, in your craft and in your pursuit of good creative is the confidence that, the confidence you earn over multiple kinds of different, what do you call it? Like sort of paths, right? Like I had a lot of intersecting paths that got me to where my career is. And I have confidence now based on those successes.
00:37:37
Elizabeth
and or the things I learned along the way. and And if you're constantly sort of stopping and starting the way the economy has forced people to be, I mean, I think the probably the most important thing is to don't not forget that building relationships is sort of the key to figuring out like who and where you want to work and where you're going to do your best and thrive. But also I think it's really important to remember, and I think I kind of just found this out again about myself.
00:38:05
Elizabeth
to keep making in some shape or form. If that is the career you want, you know, like the career that I have and the the job that I do is not all the facets of me as a creative person, but it fulfills a lot of that. And I have a drive for it. And I think creatives are just are driven, right? Like they're driven by this desire to make things. And I think make things that matter. And so in the face of sort of the stopping and starting and the number of people who don't know who they're firing, right?
00:38:36
Elizabeth
Like it's happening in these large groups of people.
00:38:38
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:38:39
Elizabeth
And like some of the most talented folks I know have been laid off from various places or have had stops and starts in their career based on what's happening in the world. I think it's just so important to keep making, keep making things, whatever those things are and like not being precious about it, but keeping that, that sort of drive going.
00:38:59
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah I think um you know, I have this painting behind me, i've I've returned, you know, I've taken longer gaps from painting so over the course of my career at different times, but when I've been at my most disrupted professionally, um or and it's really because it's the path that got me, you know, on my career path.
00:39:22
Tracey Halvorsen
it was it was It all started with making paintings, with creating things. you know That was the foundation that that started it all. And when every time I return to it, you know I learn new things that I can apply to everything.
00:39:38
Elizabeth
yeah.
00:39:39
Tracey Halvorsen
um You don't need a client or a ah job or a task you know or an opportunity to explore those ideas in whatever it is that you that you do and your on your own time.
00:39:51
Elizabeth
yeah.
00:39:52
Tracey Halvorsen
um how How much do you think those kinds of things are are of interest to see like when a young designer or creative is applying for a job and they might have like here's you know my portfolio of professional things or school assignments or whatever and then they might have their fine art section or their like hobby section or their writing or whatever it might be.
Importance of Personal Projects
00:40:16
Tracey Halvorsen
How important do you think that is? Do you pay attention to it? Does it factor into you how you think of them as a As a young creator.
00:40:23
Elizabeth
Yeah. So, I mean, I do, I pay attention to it. And I think what it, what I appreciate about it is I don't think it's a requirement. Some people aren't going to be fine artists or illustrators and designers or, you know, strategists and creators. Like, but to me, the versatility of idea generation is really important. Being able to seek different kinds of.
00:40:46
Elizabeth
inspiration, being able to to use different medium to communicate ideas is a really, really valuable skill. And I think sometimes, I don't know if you feel this way about art school, but art school set me back a little bit in that I got so incredibly precious about things I made and how I had to make them and the bar they needed to meet, that it kind of got in the way of my creativity. And I think when I see somebody that's got their line art illustrations and their sculptures and their design work on their, and they're in their book, you know, I'm like, that's interesting. Like they can explore ideas and communicating with others, working by themselves, working with others, working in this medium, working with that medium. And generally I find that those are more the people that are more able to ideate the people that I want at the idea table.
00:41:32
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:41:32
Elizabeth
um
00:41:33
Tracey Halvorsen
And it shows that drive, too.
00:41:34
Elizabeth
You know, not just production, but like ideas and that applies to branding and applies to campaign. It but applies to everything.
00:41:40
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:41:40
Elizabeth
Websites, you know, user journeys, like you name it. I think that having that kind of thinking unlocks a lot more.
00:41:47
Tracey Halvorsen
Well, it takes it takes some bravery, right?
00:41:49
Elizabeth
It takes a lot.
00:41:50
Tracey Halvorsen
And some lack of ego.
00:41:51
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:41:52
Tracey Halvorsen
You can't be too precious. Like you said, I struggle with the same things, you know?
00:41:55
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:41:56
Tracey Halvorsen
and um There's nothing that will crush your ego faster than like starting a blank canvas day after day, you know.
00:42:03
Elizabeth
It's really true. Well, and I think that, you know, I've gotten some good advice recently from a former professor of mine I reconnected with who I just think is a really brilliant teacher and maker. And he was like, give yourself a couple of it. This sounds so obvious, but give yourself a couple of small assignments, sort of themes, whatever, but like, don't sit there and think I got to get to the studio. Or like, I'm going to do this many hours in the studio this year. He's like, you're going to sit there. It's the blank canvas. He's like, you're go just going to spin when you get in there and that time is wasted. So like,
00:42:33
Elizabeth
You don't have to show it to anyone. You don't have to put it on a wall. You can if you want to, but like, don't go in there with, I have to sell this or I have to put it on a wall. Like go in there with a couple themes and see which one hits and strikes you and that you can, you know, lose yourself in.
00:42:47
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah
00:42:47
Elizabeth
And I was like, that's such a simple suggestion and it's gotten me back in the studio so many times already.
00:42:51
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah it's
00:42:53
Elizabeth
So the other thing I think is really interesting is like, even if you don't put your, your fine artwork, for example, or your photography on your portfolio. Cause like, maybe that is your private work.
00:43:05
Elizabeth
Like that's okay too. But I think what's really interesting is taking the time to work on your own and being able to work in a group.
00:43:12
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:43:13
Elizabeth
Like I work in an agency so much as collaborative, but I am so much better at it.
00:43:17
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:43:19
Elizabeth
If I take the time for my part by myself, like idea generation as an as an isolated artist or creator is so important and sort of sometimes forgotten, I think, once you get out into the world.
00:43:35
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, well, it's a different process, right, how you evaluate your own ideas.
00:43:41
Elizabeth
Mm hmm.
00:43:41
Tracey Halvorsen
You know, like, I've always i've kept a sketchbook since I was, you know, 14 years old, and I use my phone now for the same things. Like, anything that I find interesting or pops into my head, I just try to record it, write it down, take a picture of it, because I i never know where it's gonna start to inform things.
00:43:52
Elizabeth
Mm hmm.
00:43:59
Tracey Halvorsen
And
00:43:59
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:44:00
Tracey Halvorsen
The same thing too, I'll just literally pick up a but a brush and just put paint on a canvas with no other, it's just the physical, it's like getting my steps in, you know?
00:44:11
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:44:12
Tracey Halvorsen
um And then sometimes I might see something in that, you know, a few days later and that will take me off on a journey. So it's, I love inviting, me yeah, I love inviting that that that in, but at a certain point,
00:44:20
Elizabeth
The two year journey. Yeah, that's true.
00:44:30
Tracey Halvorsen
in the professional world of you know creative services and and brand and strategy, like the goal is to connect and to cause a reaction from
Empathy in Creative Work
00:44:46
Elizabeth
Mm-hmm.
00:44:46
Tracey Halvorsen
that engagement.
00:44:48
Tracey Halvorsen
So it is a lot more than like your own you know sharing your own internal creativity, um It's a lot more of like connecting with audiences and and and making that meaningful in whatever way it needs to be meaningful.
00:45:00
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:45:06
Tracey Halvorsen
and That's not a solo process.
00:45:09
Elizabeth
That's not a solo pursuit. And what's interesting is like, I feel like in my professional world, I'm constantly pointing that out. So for example, you know, I do all this work with nonprofits I have for many, many years. And the number of times that I have to very gently sort of say, yeah, but you want this brand or this thing, whatever this thing is to resonate with a person like this or this group of people, right? That is not you. That is not you, eat executive director. That is not.
00:45:43
Elizabeth
You board of trustees, lead person, like you all have very good instincts about this work or you wouldn't be here, right? Like you're obviously leaders, but this brand, this design is not meant to speak to you.
00:45:57
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:45:57
Elizabeth
And it's okay if it doesn't, as long as it lands with the people that you want this next generation of donors, you want this next generation of activists. They may not have the same taste as you. They may not have the same drive things that drive them.
00:46:10
Elizabeth
And we have to understand that. Like that's what you're paying us for.
00:46:14
Tracey Halvorsen
How many times do you have that conversation and then realize you're talking to like, you know, a narcissist or someone with a personality disorder who who clearly
00:46:23
Elizabeth
Well, I don't know if I should reveal that. I mean, I will say I have that conversation probably at least twice to three times a month with different clients. We have a lot of clients at the same time, but like I have that conversation a lot because it doesn't occur to everybody. Like you get in it when you're in a creative process and we're really collaborative in the way we engage our clients and like they're in it, but we have to constantly sort of remind that it's not about what they are drawn to. It's about the audience, the audience, the audience. And, you know, I would say.
00:46:56
Elizabeth
You know, maybe eight or nine times out of 10, I think that that works. Like you're talking to smart people who generally know that I know what I'm talking about.
00:47:01
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:47:05
Elizabeth
And I can, if I can get them to look at it that way, they understand and can like, you know, sort of a push us, approve us in the right direction. Like that is their job that in that space is to approve us in the right direction and know we know what we're doing and talking about and that we're strategic about it.
00:47:21
Elizabeth
there's always going to be every 10, every nine or 10, there's always going to be one that says, no, I'm going to make my board happy.
00:47:28
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:47:29
Elizabeth
Excuse me. Um, and you know, I think it's better actually when clients are just transparent about that because it saves us all a lot of time.
00:47:35
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:47:38
Elizabeth
It's a huge disappointment and it's, it's a shame because I've luckily been able to work with a lot of clients with some really powerful brands. And to see that sort of power wasted when there's good to be done in the world is hard for the silliest of reasons.
00:47:53
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah Yeah, it's for such petty. for such a silly, very silly reason.
00:47:58
Elizabeth
Yeah. Yeah. Like, do you want this to be an effective organization or you want, you know, your board of trustees to be happy?
00:48:03
Tracey Halvorsen
Right. Just want everyone to admire the, whatever want do it yeah, admire the window shades or the, yeah, the new new carpet.
00:48:05
Elizabeth
Like, you know, and yeah, I mean, at our best we'll make everybody, well you know, everyone will come on board, but you know, that's not usually the case.
00:48:18
Tracey Halvorsen
Well, especially when you've got, you've got to prioritize certain audiences, right? I mean, you've worked in with complex organizations.
00:48:23
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:48:26
Tracey Halvorsen
I know, I mean, I remember seeing just shock on the faces early on with my higher ed clients when I said like, here's the long list of audiences that you need to speak to.
00:48:28
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:48:38
Tracey Halvorsen
We're going to put them in ranked order because we are going to prioritize what
00:48:41
Elizabeth
hu Makes people very uncomfortable.
00:48:45
Tracey Halvorsen
One is going to be at the top, and we are going to all agree that one is more important than all the others.
00:48:51
Elizabeth
Oh yeah, it's not a popular conversation to have.
00:48:53
Tracey Halvorsen
No.
00:48:55
Elizabeth
I mean, it's also like, what's it interesting to me is that a lot of times in the higher ed space, in the nonprofit space, which is has some similarities, um it's like a lot of times what motivates these multiple multiple audiences is very similar.
00:49:04
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, very.
00:49:12
Elizabeth
So like you can center what motivates people and still make sure that the journey is designed for the first audience on the list that they give you.
00:49:12
Tracey Halvorsen
ah
00:49:21
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:49:21
Elizabeth
Because they're the ones using the website or they're the ones like really interacting with the brand. Like you can make that hierarchical list. It doesn't mean that others are less important.
00:49:32
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, I also think that it comes, I think the desire to like cater to all the audiences, especially high rights and nonprofits, it comes from a place of empathy, right?
00:49:43
Tracey Halvorsen
And so sometimes you just have to remind them like, hey,
00:49:45
Elizabeth
Inclusion. Yeah.
00:49:47
Tracey Halvorsen
that is really great that you care and you want to be inclusive, but this audience is not expecting to hear from you here. They're not expecting it.
00:49:56
Elizabeth
Right.
00:49:57
Tracey Halvorsen
It would actually be kind of rude for you to try to talk to them here.
00:50:00
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:50:01
Tracey Halvorsen
um They're gonna go here and that's fine.
00:50:04
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:50:05
Tracey Halvorsen
that's what <unk> That's what they're used to doing. They're not gonna be offended by doing that.
00:50:09
Elizabeth
No.
00:50:10
Tracey Halvorsen
and And they'll miss it if you try to but talk to them while you're talking to everybody else right here. So it's okay.
00:50:16
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:50:17
Tracey Halvorsen
who's Who is the audience that really expects to be taught you know spoken to or engaged with here? like let's Let's just talk about that a little bit.
00:50:24
Elizabeth
Well, then how can you make sure like to lean into that empathy, right? Sometimes it's about doing no harm to these other audiences, right? Like if this is a website for a program for educators and parents, I don't want kids in the program to look at that site and be like, how am I being talked about here?
00:50:31
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:50:41
Elizabeth
Like, dude, these adults don't get me. Or like, you know, like, what is this thing about?
00:50:44
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:50:45
Elizabeth
Like, I don't want to be associated with it. Like I i want to come from a place of audience empathy. I think you can do that and still gear a product, like a website.
00:50:53
Tracey Halvorsen
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:50:54
Elizabeth
or ah you know to to the audience that's using that tool.
00:50:58
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah
00:50:58
Elizabeth
And it's actually quite simple. And and you can back that with a bunch of data that you know they might have one student for every 100 parents that come to that site or 100 educators. like The data is the is the piece that it's hard to ignore, hopefully.
00:51:15
Elizabeth
We try.
00:51:16
Tracey Halvorsen
You would think, right?
00:51:16
Elizabeth
you know We try.
00:51:17
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, you would think. um So i one last question I'd love to kind of dig in on that you you sent over, which is a great one, um which is, what is like the curse of of
Impact of Revisions on Creativity
00:51:32
Tracey Halvorsen
the curse of death? um what What does inevitably, as as you've worded it, ah what inevitably takes great creative and makes it just average? It's a great question.
00:51:43
Elizabeth
I should have like, uh, prepared my answer. Uh, I mean, I, I, I think, I mean, and I'm very curious in your, your career if this is very similar, but you know, it is inevitably the watering down of an idea and that is like the most simple way to put it.
00:51:46
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, I mean, I've got to think about it.
00:52:02
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:52:03
Elizabeth
But usually the strongest brands, right? Double down on who they are fully, authentically, deeply. They don't care about the haters.
00:52:14
Elizabeth
They don't care about, um, every board members, personal color associate, you know, they double down on what is authentic about their brand and organization.
00:52:15
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:52:22
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah
00:52:25
Elizabeth
You know, what is the thing that they are there for? They exist for, and who's that person they exist for? Right.
00:52:32
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:52:33
Elizabeth
And it was almost impossible to get a large consensus group of empathetic, smart people through a process where. they will all come to the same conclusion about what that looks like.
00:52:45
Elizabeth
So it's that watering down of the idea that happens chip after chip after chip, you know, like we're gonna please this person here and this person here and change this like word and change. It's just that like chipping away of good ideas.
00:52:57
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah
00:53:02
Elizabeth
And, you know, essentially not knowing where someone needs to be an approver versus a contributor and it can really all fall apart.
00:53:02
Tracey Halvorsen
So,
00:53:07
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah. ah how How do you combat that? I mean, a few phrases, sort of industry catch phrases come to mind, right? Like design by committee, um you know, the never ending revision rounds, um final, final, final, final, right?
00:53:16
Elizabeth
Yes.
00:53:19
Elizabeth
Oh, final, final, final underscore relies.
00:53:23
Tracey Halvorsen
Like out of scope, ah change orders.
00:53:23
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:53:27
Tracey Halvorsen
But I mean, you know, it's a slippery slope, right? How do you, And how do you do you even show a client, you know, if you're showing three options and one of them is already kind of the watered down one, you know,
00:53:42
Elizabeth
Totally depends on who the people are in the room because I've done it both ways and sometimes had success. um Like some people really need one that they can be like, I hate this. And then they'll pick from the good ones.
00:53:52
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah
00:53:53
Elizabeth
And then there's other clients who are like, this is about getting to know your clients in discovery.
00:53:53
Tracey Halvorsen
yeah
00:53:57
Elizabeth
But like the other clients that are like, Oh, maybe that horrible one is worth considering. And you're like, Oh God, this was a bad, bad gamble. um I mean, the only way I've ever circumvented this, the only way I've ever prevented it is to sell people upfront on the kind of process I want to run.
00:54:16
Elizabeth
And that is an audience empathy process. That is a deeply collaborative process, but it is not an everyone in the room is a decider kind of a process.
00:54:26
Elizabeth
It is a, these are the goalposts. This is where regimen and and process really can save, I think, creative.
00:54:35
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:54:35
Elizabeth
It's just, these peep this is the approver, the single approver if possible.
00:54:39
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah.
00:54:39
Elizabeth
And these are the folks that are going to help shape it along the way. And this is where we're going to let you. And then this is the part where we are professionals in an industry of creative where we have studied and worked to be good at a craft. And this is where you have to trust us. And you can get a partner on board with that process up front. It's the only time I think I've ever really been fully successful because almost inevitably there's some curveball along the way or someone that gets and engaged at the end that hasn't been a part of the whole thing or hasn't agreed to those sort of norms up front and you know some things are more watered down than others but but that's where the fail happens almost every time.
00:55:19
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah, the trust is such a key ingredient. If you can have ah a you know ah an experienced client who has the trust in in what you're doing, well, first of all, you can move so much more quickly.
00:55:23
Elizabeth
It is.
00:55:36
Tracey Halvorsen
um
00:55:36
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:55:37
Tracey Halvorsen
you know We've been able to engage with clients lately that because there's trust, where it's like we're 5x'ing on the timelines because we don't have to go through all the little like delicate baby steps of like, okay, now we're gonna do this and now we're gonna show you that.
00:55:52
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:55:56
Tracey Halvorsen
We're like, can we um take a look at your brand, maybe consider some differences? They say yes, we can show them an entirely new different brand and they will consider it.
00:56:05
Elizabeth
yeah
00:56:06
Tracey Halvorsen
um because it is it is rooted in really knowing them, really knowing where they're trying to go and being kind of a partner in that as much as you know ah ah client or a vendor.
00:56:19
Tracey Halvorsen
um The dog knows that children are home, so he wants to go to say hi, which is probably a good time to wrap it up. um This has been an awesome conversation.
00:56:30
Tracey Halvorsen
oh I could go on and on with you forever.
00:56:32
Elizabeth
I know I love talking with you. I should do it again sometime.
00:56:35
Tracey Halvorsen
Let's do it again. Thanks for bringing um a not 100% feeling voice to go.
00:56:40
Elizabeth
Yeah, sorry. The cough drop.
00:56:43
Tracey Halvorsen
No, I think ah we're going to have like, this will be the sexy voice podcast.
00:56:45
Elizabeth
season Little Yeah.
00:56:46
Tracey Halvorsen
Yeah. the I'll put that in the trailer. This one is with the sexy voices. ah No, thank you.
00:56:53
Elizabeth
Likewise.
00:56:54
Tracey Halvorsen
I'm just such a fan of your work and your thinking and you. um So I really appreciate this.
00:57:00
Elizabeth
like
00:57:00
Tracey Halvorsen
And I hope our conversation will be inspiring, helpful. um provide a little camaraderie to anybody who listens.
00:57:08
Elizabeth
Yeah.
00:57:08
Tracey Halvorsen
so All right, until then, hang in there and I'll talk to you again soon.
00:57:09
Elizabeth
Hope so. All right.
00:57:14
Elizabeth
Take care.
00:57:15
Tracey Halvorsen
All right, bye.
00:57:16
Elizabeth
Bye.