Transcript
Speaker: Hello everyone and welcome to the first official episode of Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I almost forgot the name of my own podcast there, but we're okay.
Speaker: Today we are joined by my good friend Timothy Van Bruggen.
Speaker: Tim is a graduate of Hope College.
Speaker: He has a degree both in theater and business and he's currently the managing director of Master Arts Theater and
Speaker: He's been involved in theater and ministry in various parts of the country, mostly Michigan and Florida.
Speaker: And now he's here with us for an hour or longer, if we get really long-winded, for us to pick his brain about being a faithful artist.
Speaker: So welcome, Tim.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: It's good to be here.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Also, I'm John.
Speaker: I realized I didn't say that at the start, so I'm saying it now.
Speaker: My name's John.
Speaker: Hi.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: How are you doing, Tim?
Speaker: I'm doing all right.
Speaker: I'm doing all right.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: So, our topic today, which I just thought was a good one to kick off the podcast, is what does it mean to be a faithful artist?
Speaker: Because thinking about this concept of being artists who are also Christians and walking that path...
Speaker: You know, as Christians, we have to be faithful to God.
Speaker: And so then if we're living out our lives through art, how do we continue to be faithful in that way?
Speaker: So that's kind of the big picture of our conversation today.
Speaker: But I have two questions for you beforehand that don't connect to that.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: First...
Speaker: since this is a podcast for artists and mostly in conversation with Christian artists, I just want to know what you're working on right now.
Speaker: What's, what's your creative projects that you are delving into and trying to master?
Speaker: Well, um, as the managing director of the theater, I always have my hands in a lot of theater pies going on.
Speaker: Um, so right now I'm with you in Hamlet, which is going to be opening soon that I'm trying to navigate that.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: I'm also prepping to direct our youth show, which is based on some wonderful books that I love very, very, very much.
Speaker: The Red Wall Books by Brian Jacques.
Speaker: So I'm prepping, I mean prep to do the youth theater thing.
Speaker: But then I'm also starting to give some thought and branch out to some other just creative projects of my own.
Speaker: I'm working on a couple of different projects.
Speaker: play scripts.
Speaker: Um, but one thing I'm really excited to try is I'm going to try a new, uh, recording stories specifically designed for people to use when they're trying to fall asleep.
Speaker: So I'm starting this podcast.
Speaker: It'll probably be about three, four months out, uh, called twilight tales with Tim.
Speaker: where I take some classic stories and just read them in a very soothing voice that people can go to the podcast and find one they want to listen to and fall asleep to it.
Speaker: That sounds super cool.
Speaker: That's kind of my latest project that I'm working on.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: That is exciting.
Speaker: I will fall asleep to your voice.
Speaker: Thanks.
Speaker: To the soothing dulcet tones.
Speaker: So, our second question...
Speaker: I always find that art is a big spiritual formation thing for me.
Speaker: Sometimes I feel like it serves me more than the audience that I'm presenting it to.
Speaker: So I am curious with those projects you're working on, or even earlier than those, how has God been using art in your life to speak to you or to shape you or to edify you?
Speaker: Oh, he's always using art in my life in many ways.
Speaker: I know in my current role playing the villain in the play that I'm currently in, it's really kind of forcing me to take a look at my own personality and my own individual desires, thoughts, and how there but for the grace of God go I. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: as a theater artist who needs to find something to connect with my character, who's not really a nice guy.
Speaker: It's one of those things where I realize my need for Jesus a lot with what I'm currently working on.
Speaker: So that has been, in many ways, very transformative in a different way than most of my theater projects have been because most of my theater projects bring me close to worship of God.
Speaker: This one's bringing me closer to my depravity as a human being
Speaker: And the sin that dwells within me, even if it doesn't necessarily exert itself like the villain in the play, I see those same inclinations and same things in my own life.
Speaker: So I'm in this season right now where I'm really, really pursuing mercy and pursuing grace because I kind of feel like...
Speaker: both the enormity of God's love for me, even while I have that sinful human nature, is really in this particular season something that God really wants me to focus on.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: And I will say, I'm going to go off topic a little bit, and I might write a blog post because there's going to be like a blog element to the podcast too.
Speaker: But I might end up writing on this.
Speaker: It occurred to me recently, because Hamlet is also not a great guy.
Speaker: I think I have a maybe slightly higher view of him than you do, but still he does some horrible things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think it's just been a really interesting accidental Lenten discipline to be walking through in the Lent season with these horrible people and remembering where we're at with God and remembering our need for God.
Speaker: through the various murders we commit on stage.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Well, and the interesting thing is I don't look at them, either Claudius or Hamlet, or really anyone, but especially those two because they're the focus and they make so many bad decisions.
Speaker: But they're not, at their heart, bad people.
Speaker: They're... I think both of them are people who allow their desires...
Speaker: whether it be for power or relationship or revenge or jealousy,
Speaker: they allow the, those things to take their eyes off God.
Speaker: And I think that makes them unbelievably, uh, relatable to all of us because when we sin, um, when we make bad decisions, when we make bad choices, it's usually because we have, we've taken our eyes off of our relationship with God or we've, we haven't asked him first or look to him first.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: So in many ways, I think Hamlet and Claudius and Gertrude and all the characters in Hamlet really are not that far from all of us.
Speaker: And they just have...
Speaker: a little less resistance to making decisions about based off of their feelings and desires that most of us hopefully have.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: So, uh, let's go ahead and transition now into our main topic.
Speaker: The idea of being faithful as an artist.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: First, I want to kind of hear a little bit, I guess, of your story of walking through.
Speaker: Oh, I may not have sent you this question, too, so this might be a surprise question.
Speaker: I just want to hear a little bit about your story of, I guess, becoming an artist and becoming a follower of Christ and kind of how those two have worked together.
Speaker: What has it meant for you to walk through this?
Speaker: a life that grows deeper in your relationship with Christ and your knowledge of him while also growing as an artist?
Speaker: You know, what's that journey kind of been like?
Speaker: Um, wow.
Speaker: That's a big question.
Speaker: Um, well, I grew up in a home that was, you know, my parents made sure we were in church on every Sunday, but I wouldn't say it was a religious home.
Speaker: So we didn't do a lot of,
Speaker: there wasn't Bible devotions and worship happening at home.
Speaker: It was pretty much a Sunday, Sunday thing.
Speaker: Um, like we would go Sunday, we would go every time the church doors were open Sunday morning, Sunday evening, Wednesday evening catechism.
Speaker: So I think my parents wanted to instill that love of God in us, but didn't know how to do it themselves.
Speaker: So they kind of, you know, just assumed that the church would do it and being at church was the way to do it.
Speaker: Which was good because I think that did give me an education and a foundation in understanding scripture and the Lord.
Speaker: But it never really took me to that place of personal relationship.
Speaker: I just felt like, okay, this is part of the world that I, you know, I never questioned being part of it or not being part of it.
Speaker: Going to college is when, in high school and college is when I really discovered that I was a creative person.
Speaker: I don't really come off as a creative person.
Speaker: Like I'm not flamboyant and stuff like that.
Speaker: I'm very kind of conservative in how I present myself, but there's a pretty fierce creative personality underneath that.
Speaker: And I discovered theater and music, but really theater became my love.
Speaker: And when I went to college, I went to small conservative college, Hope College, Christian school, and
Speaker: But as is the case in many Christian colleges, the arts departments don't really reflect the Christianity of the college.
Speaker: So I was there and I did this double track of kind of business administration and theater performance.
Speaker: But that was also where my religion was first tested.
Speaker: Because as I was taking religion courses and world religion courses, I was realizing I didn't know a whole lot.
Speaker: And I didn't have a really firm foundation in my faith.
Speaker: So near the end of my time at college, my dad passed away, which kind of became a huge faith life event in trying to figure out who Tim was.
Speaker: And shortly after that, I started to attend church with and discovered there was a whole bunch of things about God that I didn't know.
Speaker: And that put me on a course of really digging into scripture, really finding out what the Bible says.
Speaker: And eventually that led to me
Speaker: giving my life to Christ and really starting a much more personal individual walk with Christ as the center of my spiritual life and eventually all of my life.
Speaker: Um, so that's kind of like the foundation in a nutshell.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: think I answered all of that question?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Um, I think a lot of times for artists, it can feel like there's a war between your art and your faith, like which one's in control.
Speaker: Um, and I mean, you know, I know there's a lot of times the, the question of, you know, where are your boundaries in your art?
Speaker: What is okay and isn't okay to go into with your art?
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: which I feel like is even an aspect of that.
Speaker: So, but I know at least in my life, when I'm pursuing creative projects or pondering things I could do in the future, there's always this like danger there of like, that the art could become so big a thing and so enrapturing and entrenching that that like becomes...
Speaker: my all instead of Christ.
Speaker: So you kind of have to go through this discipline of repeatedly submitting it to Christ.
Speaker: So are there times in your life that you can think of where you've had to very actively tell your art or make your art submit to God and where you've had to sort of
Speaker: I don't know, do a 180 or change what it is you're working on to try and make sure that it's something that's faithful to God and submitted to him and not the other way around.
Speaker: That's a really interesting question.
Speaker: Not when it comes to individual projects that I've worked on, and I'll explain that in a minute.
Speaker: Now, when I first really gave my life to Christ,
Speaker: Shortly after that, God made it very, very clear to me that I had to set theater aside.
Speaker: Completely and utterly.
Speaker: Now, at the time, that was a really, really hard thing for me because being a theater artist was so much a part of who Tim is that for me to set aside that part was like, okay,
Speaker: I have to set aside what is my identity to follow Christ.
Speaker: It was one of the most hardest things I've ever had to do.
Speaker: But sometimes that's what God calls us to.
Speaker: Most of the time, he's calling you to do that to get your priorities in perspective.
Speaker: And fortunately for me, three years later, he started to show me how I could really walk and be a theater artist and honor him with my art.
Speaker: Now, I can't say that I've ever been in a project where I felt like I had to do a change or a 180 to make sure that it was submitted to God.
Speaker: Now, there were times when, as I'm considering being part of a project, I struggle with God as far as, is this a project that I, as an artist who wants to honor Christ, can be part of?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: it's been a very small number of times that that was actually a struggle.
Speaker: Usually, if I'm considering a project and I take it to the Lord, it's either in looking at Scripture and what Scripture tells me that God wants for our lives, or through prayer and devotion, I usually get a really strong sense of discernment about whether I should be involved or something like that.
Speaker: The struggle comes with when I'm in the project, not necessarily do I need to adjust the project in some way to make it more honoring to God.
Speaker: It's like, okay, am I being faithful as I go through?
Speaker: That's more the question that I ask myself is, am I being faithful to what God is calling me to be doing in this particular project?
Speaker: So that's where for me...
Speaker: the struggle comes in is maintaining my faithfulness to the Lord and not letting taking my eyes off of him in the process.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I am curious.
Speaker: Are there any projects that you felt like God has said no to that were just like heartbreaking to not do?
Speaker: You know, no.
Speaker: I've,
Speaker: I think since really kind of turning my, the way I approach theater around to being one of honoring him, there's never been a project that I felt like I'm really disappointed because I'm not doing this.
Speaker: Um, and, and the reason I'm not doing it is because God doesn't want me to.
Speaker: I think if you're walking with the Lord, um,
Speaker: Here's the thing.
Speaker: My love for Christ is the primary thing I have in my life.
Speaker: Sometimes I've executed that well.
Speaker: Sometimes I haven't.
Speaker: But scripture says that those who love me will obey my commandments.
Speaker: And I think the more that you love someone, whether it be Christ or whether it be someone in your life, ideally you want to please that person.
Speaker: You want to have a really good, solid relationship with that person.
Speaker: And with my relationship with Christ...
Speaker: If I feel like this is not something that's going to please him, I don't struggle.
Speaker: You know, I'm like, okay, if this is going to make you upset, I don't want to, you know, so I don't, I don't, I don't feel disappointed by that.
Speaker: Are there, are there some.
Speaker: And I hate this term because I don't really like the separation.
Speaker: Are there some secular projects that I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, that's a really creative project that I would like to be a part of.
Speaker: Yeah, there's some of those out there.
Speaker: But ultimately, I value my relationship with Christ more than,
Speaker: So if I feel like, if I start examining a project or looking at a potential audition or start working on writing something and I feel like, and I get the sense that this isn't going in such a way that it's going to be honoring to Christ in my life, then it's usually pretty easy to back away from that and say, no, this isn't for me.
Speaker: And I think that that's like, I don't know, I feel like that's an ideal place to be with people
Speaker: God and just with your identity and such where it's, you know, like you said, it's all about you love God.
Speaker: So you want to, to please God.
Speaker: And that's really the highest good and thing that you can achieve is to,
Speaker: have a healthy relationship with him.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know.
Speaker: Well, and I should amend that because what I have found, like there was a period this past year, we had, we have some amazing shows going on at Master Arts this year and I was involved in a lot of them.
Speaker: And there was a point where there were two shows that I was supposed to direct, both of them, and they overlapped each other.
Speaker: And both shows that I was passionate about that I really wanted, that had good messages that were
Speaker: You know, there was nothing questionable in either of them.
Speaker: Both of them had really powerful stories that I wanted to help tell.
Speaker: And there came a point when it was really, really obvious for my own self-care and health that I couldn't do both.
Speaker: So I had to give one up.
Speaker: And on the surface, I probably gave up the one that on the surface would probably be the one that's more directly God-honoring.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: that I had a really, really powerful vision for.
Speaker: So in the moment that I had to make that choice to give up directing that show and just doing the other one, there was a bit of a struggle there.
Speaker: Because I'm like...
Speaker: And it wasn't, I'm giving up something that's obviously not God honoring for something that is.
Speaker: Both of these were really wonderful projects that I felt I could be worshipful in.
Speaker: So there was a bit of struggle giving up one that I had such a strong vision and passion for.
Speaker: But once I made that decision...
Speaker: Once that I felt really strongly that God saying, hey, Tim, you got to lighten up.
Speaker: You know, got to take some things off your plate.
Speaker: Once I made that decision, I was totally at peace with it.
Speaker: Was it a struggle to actually get to the point where I made the decision?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, it was.
Speaker: But once that decision was made, I very immediately felt peace with it.
Speaker: And looking back, it was the right decision.
Speaker: The project I did do brought so much...
Speaker: joy to my heart which i needed at the time and the one i didn't do i was able you know other people were blessed with and i saw god moving in their lives and so was there a struggle to make the decision yeah there was um so i'm backtracking a little bit but it was not it was it wasn't a matter of
Speaker: I was disappointed when I had to make the decision, but very, very quickly came to this place of, Oh yeah, that's the right decision.
Speaker: And God confirmed it.
Speaker: And my life was better for it.
Speaker: And the shows were both better for it.
Speaker: Um, so I would say there's never lingering disappointment because he pretty quickly will bring me to a place of peace.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: I always love it when I get to look back and say, Oh, that's what God was doing.
Speaker: That's what God intended with that.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: I think that's a really good segue into the next question I'm going to ask.
Speaker: Um, and I want to circle back to the idea of us being faithful in our art to God, but I, I, I really latch onto the idea, um, that if you're faithful to God, he's faithful to you.
Speaker: Um, that,
Speaker: A lot of times I think about this when I'm making a decision and I want it to be God-honoring.
Speaker: I'm like, well, if I'm trying to be faithful to God, he'll be faithful to me.
Speaker: And he's just so faithful, even when I'm not faithful to him.
Speaker: So setting aside the discussion about us being faithful to God in our art, which we'll come back to, but what are some ways in...
Speaker: your art and the things you've created and been involved in that you've seen God be faithful to you through that or use that in your life?
Speaker: Me personally or the project that I'm involved in or both?
Speaker: Both.
Speaker: I was thinking you personally, but it can be the project as well.
Speaker: So kind of riffing off of something you just said, the great thing about God is he's always faithful.
Speaker: Even when I'm failing at being faithful to him, he's always faithful to me.
Speaker: Sometimes that means he's pointing out to me how I'm not being faithful.
Speaker: It's like, Hey Tim, you're a little off track here.
Speaker: You know, um, that happens.
Speaker: And more often than I wish it, you know, I'd love it if I could be more faithful than I am.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Sometimes it's, it's really interesting because almost every project that I do, when I look back on it, I see God's hand in it and how it's been something of a blessing to me, even if it was difficult or even if it was hard or even in the moment it felt overwhelming.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Like, for example, the show I referred to, I got to direct this beautiful little two-person show.
Speaker: It was really just a little romantic comedy, and it was very well written.
Speaker: And I worked with a wonderful couple, a young married couple, to do it.
Speaker: And I came away.
Speaker: And the best thing I can say that God did for me through that show personally was it brought me back to a place of having joy doing art, which I had kind of been away for a while.
Speaker: So that's just one example.
Speaker: In that particular project, it wasn't any big, huge revelation.
Speaker: It wasn't any like...
Speaker: changing my spiritual life.
Speaker: It just, it was eight weeks of joy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, there are other times where I'm able to do a project that's very directly honoring to him, uh, where it becomes very transformative for myself, for my relationships with people.
Speaker: A lot of the friends that are in my life are in my life because of some of those transformative collaborative art, um,
Speaker: pieces like the singer like uh beams are creaking the story of dietrich bonhoeffer which i had the you know wonderful blessing to be a part of um the times i've done cotton patch gospel which uh you know those were all ones that were very directly i could i could sit here and say each one of those was very obviously honoring to god um
Speaker: Beams Are Creaking changed my spiritual life just because I got exposed to the writing of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and got to portray that life, which made me, it changed my devotional life.
Speaker: Father Brown, which is interesting, it's a murder mystery, but playing Father Brown and researching Catholicism and the writing of G.K.
Speaker: Chesterton,
Speaker: all of a sudden now GK Chesterton is a huge influence on my life.
Speaker: So God used that to bring me exposure to this unbelievable mind.
Speaker: A lot of times it's just a project that's a lot of fun, but all of a sudden I now have friendships and relationships that speak into my life, that God uses in my life.
Speaker: So God is always faithful and I always get something out of every project
Speaker: what it is just varies.
Speaker: Yeah, I guess that's the best way I can answer that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So let's circle back to that idea of faithful art.
Speaker: What qualities, if any, do you feel need to be present in a project or in an artistic work in order for it to be faithful to God?
Speaker: Or...
Speaker: Because now I'm amending my question because I almost feel like maybe that's less qualities in the piece of work itself, but rather in the creation of it, I suppose.
Speaker: Okay, let's say if you were...
Speaker: An omniscient fly on the wall watching the creation of a book or a play or a film or an album.
Speaker: What are qualities that you would look for in the creation of that to point to that process and that work being faithful to God?
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: If any.
Speaker: There might not be any, but...
Speaker: I think there's a very simple answer to this with a huge explanation behind it.
Speaker: Truth.
Speaker: Even if it's art that's being created by someone who's not a faithful follower, if they're creating art from the basis of wanting to represent something truthful, right?
Speaker: Truth comes right to the heart of God.
Speaker: So I think if I'm looking at a creation process or if I'm looking at a piece of art, whether no matter what it may be, I think if it is representing something truthfully, there is God in it.
Speaker: Which is why sometimes we can be moved differently
Speaker: by art that's created by someone who isn't necessarily purposefully trying to honor God with it.
Speaker: So let me give you some examples.
Speaker: If art is being created to manipulate and to try and specifically edify something that isn't true, then you're losing some of what could be God in that art.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So that's why I have a really funny feeling about marketing and advertising because I'm like, okay, are you being truthful or are you just trying to manipulate result?
Speaker: I think there's a lot of art that's created to manipulate result.
Speaker: And the moment you're trying to manipulate a result is
Speaker: in an extent we're all doing that, but what are you trying to manipulate and what's the result you're trying to get?
Speaker: And is it truthful?
Speaker: I'm going to be honest.
Speaker: I see a lot of Christian art doing that too.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Now, if there may be truth in it, which may, which means that even though it's very obvious that the artist is, is using blatant tactics to try and get you to feel a certain way, um,
Speaker: And that's not necessarily bad, but is there truth at the foundation?
Speaker: So I think the one essential element in creating art or in a piece of art that can it be something that honors God is, is it representative of truth?
Speaker: Which is why, just like in the Bible, God is omniscient and all-powerful and he can speak through anything he wants to.
Speaker: Which is why sometimes we can watch a film or read a book or see a piece of art or watch a dance or go to the theater and created by completely non-God-honoring people.
Speaker: But if their process was to create something truthful, God can use that piece of work to touch people in a truthful, God-honoring way.
Speaker: Now there's another step to that because it's not worship if it's just truth.
Speaker: So we can honor God with art that is truthful, but it's not worshipful.
Speaker: Then you have spirit and truth that is necessary.
Speaker: So there's art that is truthful and there's power in that, but it never will be
Speaker: God honoring in the sense of, is this praiseworthy?
Speaker: Because it lacks the spirit.
Speaker: And I think part of the other side of that is the recipient.
Speaker: Because if God is working in the heart of you and you're experiencing a piece of art,
Speaker: God's good.
Speaker: The way you view that art is going to be filtered through your relationship with God.
Speaker: So you might be able to get something spiritually powerful, truthful from that piece of art that someone else would not get because of the relationship that you have, because how God wants to use that to reveal something to you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And God can do that whether you're a believer or whether you're not a believer.
Speaker: But if you're open to God's influence and you're walking in spirit and truth in your life, he has a lot more ability.
Speaker: I'm going to reverse that.
Speaker: You have a lot more ability to discern what God's trying to tell you through that piece of work.
Speaker: So part of that truth, in the creation of art, that desire to be truthful is there.
Speaker: And you can have that whether you're a believer or not a believer.
Speaker: I think the responsibility is greater if you're a believer because you not only want to be truthful, but you also want to be honoring and praiseworthy, which means then you have to bring the spirit into it.
Speaker: That's the difference.
Speaker: If there's, and I hate talking about the difference between secular and religious art because I'm not sure there really is.
Speaker: But if there's a difference is,
Speaker: is the artist trying to not just portray truth, but also trying to honor God.
Speaker: Art can be truthful no matter where it comes from.
Speaker: But it can't always be praiseworthy and worshipful.
Speaker: Could you...
Speaker: That we're going to sing and it says specific things about God and we're like, God, you're this and this and this and we have a pretty melody to sing it to.
Speaker: I think a lot of times we look at a movie or a show and we're like, oh, that's really complicated and sad and emotional and weird.
Speaker: And so I think a lot of times we just look at those as different things.
Speaker: But how do you think that all these different forms of art that maybe aren't directly proclaiming God or his character in like a this is who you are God kind of way, how do you think that can be worshipful?
Speaker: Okay, I'm going to come at that from two different aspects.
Speaker: The first is as an artist myself.
Speaker: in the book of Colossians, it says, work willingly at whatever you do as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people.
Speaker: So there's an aspect of worship in absolutely everything.
Speaker: You know, the idea of worship being the music that we sing to is really a modern contrivance that,
Speaker: church culture in the modern area has kind of said, okay, this is our worship.
Speaker: And the word worship is so much larger and so much more entailing.
Speaker: And there's so much more to the idea of worshiping God than just, okay, we worship him with song and then we receive the word and then we have the sacraments, you know, the worship service is all that, but also life is,
Speaker: And worship in life is all that.
Speaker: When I go to work, if I'm giving the best in my job, that's worship as unto the Lord.
Speaker: If I go to my relationships, my friendships, my family, and I am loving them with the love that God has given me for those people, that is worship to the Lord.
Speaker: So I think part of it comes from as a creator, as a person,
Speaker: We need to be saying, how can I honor God with, you know, how can I honor God with administrating my theater?
Speaker: You know, that's, that's not artistic.
Speaker: It's, you know, making sure the bills are paid, making sure that I'm, I'm being a good steward with the funds, making sure that like, if I have to,
Speaker: you know, get paint.
Speaker: I'm getting the paint at the best, you know, what's best for this organization that God has blessed me with running.
Speaker: And when I do that, even if it's not foremost in my mind, but if I'm giving my best, that is worship to the Lord.
Speaker: As an artist, if we're creating, whether you be an actor who's trying to, you know, bring across truth or a painter, if we're doing it to the best of our ability, especially if we're
Speaker: journeying this life as a Christian, if we're doing that with that in the back of our minds, every single thing that we do, whether it's building a prop or painting a wall or creating a character is worship to the Lord.
Speaker: So from a creator standpoint, from a human standpoint, from what we do with our lives, there's that aspect of it.
Speaker: Everything we do is worship to the Lord.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And when we are walking with Christ, we need to remember that we need to be doing the things that we do in our life as if we're doing them for him.
Speaker: The way we love our spouses, the way we care for our kids, the way we have relationship with friends, the way we do our jobs, the way we, you know.
Speaker: And you could take this to the point where it can be almost impossible.
Speaker: you shouldn't take it too far because that can stifle you when you're worried about how God's going to respond by what gas station I choose.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: He's just honored that you have provision that you're going to feed yourself or can put gas in your car.
Speaker: So you shouldn't take that too far.
Speaker: But then as a, and again, this is a word I hate, consumer of art,
Speaker: how we choose to respond to art and to the different things that we choose in our lives i mean there are tons and tons and tons of scientific studies that say what we choose to watch what we choose to read who we choose to be with those all are strong influences or influencers in our life you know
Speaker: And I think we are being worshipful to the Lord when we are being discerning and conscious about what we're putting into our mind space.
Speaker: And the funny thing is, is, is I'm definitely not one of those people that says, well, this is something that's unacceptable to the Lord.
Speaker: And this is something that is.
Speaker: And
Speaker: You know, I'm not that way because I do believe that Christ's sacrifice gives us freedom.
Speaker: So we have, and I don't know exactly, you know, book and verse, but I know that Paul talks about freedom.
Speaker: And in the passage that he's talking about, he's talking about things that we eat.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: things that we drink, things that we consume.
Speaker: But this is also true about art and about books and movies and theater.
Speaker: And, you know, we are free to experience all of that.
Speaker: And all of those things are available to us.
Speaker: But then he says, but not all things are profitable.
Speaker: So I think part of being a worshipful follower of Christ is
Speaker: whether you're an artist or not, is having discernment about the things that you're letting influence you.
Speaker: All of those things are available to you, but God loves you, and not all of those things are profitable for you, but if you take the time to both read scriptures, pray to the Lord, let the Spirit give you guidance,
Speaker: I think we are worshiping God when we use that spirit-given discernment to make choices about what we allow to influence our lives.
Speaker: And that is a form of worship because, you know, Jesus said, if you love me, you will obey my commandments.
Speaker: You know, God loves all of us.
Speaker: He's faithful all the time, like we were talking about earlier.
Speaker: But a loving relationship is a two-way street.
Speaker: So yes, God loves you.
Speaker: God loves you and he's going to provide for you and he wants the best for you.
Speaker: But part of that loving relationship is we have to love him back.
Speaker: So if we're loving him back, our desire has to be to do those things, to choose those things that are being worshipful or loving, because that's really what worship is.
Speaker: It's us loving God back to him.
Speaker: And that can be different for absolutely every person.
Speaker: You know, it's kind of like for the alcoholic, alcohol is a thing that can take their eyes off of God.
Speaker: So for them, being worshipful means I do not do alcohol.
Speaker: Other people may not have a problem and they actually, you know, have a glass of wine and it can be totally non-effective and they can actually feel like they're being worshipful.
Speaker: because they're enjoying the fruits of what God has provided us you know for me for example I cannot handle uh horror films now there are some I know a couple people and it's outside of my understanding but can get a lot of spiritual truth out of watching a horror film and I'm like for me
Speaker: it just makes me way too uncomfortable and I don't feel like I can do that.
Speaker: And, you know, so I think you have to be discerning about how God has made you as a person, what is going to take your eyes off of God and what's going to direct your eyes toward God.
Speaker: And as you ask the Lord for guidance, he's going to give you that discernment.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So that's both how we can be worshipable as a human being, creating, doing work every day, but also how we can be worshipful in
Speaker: what we choose and how we choose to honor God and just use discernment in our everyday lives.
Speaker: And I think following that idea of, I love what you said of worship is just loving God.
Speaker: So I think if we as artists could approach our art in the sense of like, we don't create in a vacuum, you know, even if you're a painter who's going in your studio and painting,
Speaker: you have a mother or father at least, if you don't have a spouse or kids or brother and sister, you know, what you create in some way and the way that you do that affects something relationally.
Speaker: So for me, you know, doing a lot of theater, I have to think about, okay, how much theater can I do?
Speaker: Actually, that's not the way I'm thinking about it.
Speaker: This is the wrong way to think about it.
Speaker: How much theater can I do without upsetting my wife?
Speaker: That's a valid thought.
Speaker: That's a valid question.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But the mindset should be more, okay, what's the appropriate amount that's the right balance that allows me to love my wife well while still creating things and doing what God made me to do?
Speaker: And so I think if we can, I don't know, just think of the realness of the relationship with God.
Speaker: So then every action as people is, like you said, geared towards loving him.
Speaker: And then as artists, as we're
Speaker: you know, in pre-production for a show, or as we're sketching out this painting, or as we're outlining a novel, or putting together these lyrics for a song, you know, thinking about how does this affect my relationship with God?
Speaker: Is it something that's honoring to him, or is it not?
Speaker: And like you said, I think that's different for everybody, depending on where they're at, and
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The way God made them and what their conscience is telling them, what the Holy Spirit's telling them through that.
Speaker: But I think if we could just all lead with that idea of, you know, to be a faithful artist is to love God well and to keep that relationship at the forefront of our mind, even as we work on these things.
Speaker: I think that would be a good...
Speaker: sort of plumb bob, sort of level.
Speaker: I'm using too many obscure building tools.
Speaker: A good measuring rod for us to walk through that with.
Speaker: Well, and to add on to that a little bit, something that God's really been impressing upon me over the last year or so is
Speaker: I've gone through a lot of different personal challenges, but one of the things that he has really expressed to me is that there's a difference between doing something for him and doing something with him.
Speaker: And what I'm realizing is that... And doing something for God is fantastic, and he loves that.
Speaker: But I'm also realizing that sometimes God is whispering in my ear, hey, I want to do art with you.
Speaker: When I was in The Singer...
Speaker: there was this, this one night where I like was really emotional.
Speaker: And I think it was late to rehearsal and I was just having a rough night.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: I think you and I wound up talking after rehearsal and stuff.
Speaker: But that night was just a really rough night, and I was overwhelmed because I was designing this big, giant set piece of a tree that was like my love letter to God's creation.
Speaker: And I was also playing a character that was like my love letter to my relationship with God because literally every line I could pinpoint to, ah, this is this point in my life, and this is this point in my life.
Speaker: And I was just like on the floor, like...
Speaker: breaking down because the character was breaking down.
Speaker: So I was like, I can have an emotional breakdown and nobody will know and it'll be fine.
Speaker: And I was just like, God, I'm just, I'm so tired.
Speaker: And I feel like I'm screwing everything up.
Speaker: And I don't get it.
Speaker: I just wanted to do this beautiful, lovely thing for you.
Speaker: And I just heard him whisper in that weird way that you sometimes hear God whisper in your heart
Speaker: John, I don't want you to do this for me.
Speaker: I want you to do this with me.
Speaker: And I was like, whoa, what a crazy idea that I don't have to grab this giant stone and haul it up this mountain myself and get to the top and be like, look, God, I did it.
Speaker: Aren't you proud?
Speaker: But that he and I can lift that together and walk that together.
Speaker: And that can be just as glorifying and edifying.
Speaker: I think when I look back,
Speaker: on my artistic career, the times, the ones that stick with me, the ones that I can point to and saying, this was a life changing experience are the ones where, whether I was deliberate of it or not, but they were the ones where I could look back and say, Oh, it wasn't just me creating.
Speaker: It was God creating.
Speaker: And those are the ones that are really the life changing ones for me.
Speaker: Um, some of them were openly religious.
Speaker: Some of them weren't.
Speaker: But, and again, I need to kind of back up and say there's nothing wrong with doing things for God.
Speaker: He will receive it, and he loves that, and he enjoys it.
Speaker: But every once in a while, he's like, I want to do this with you.
Speaker: And when you can actually, as an artist, open yourself up to God's voice, hands, spirit to actually work through you, which...
Speaker: It's hard to describe to someone who hasn't had the experience of surrendering yourself to the Lord in that way.
Speaker: It becomes a whole different level of worship.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I do think it probably looks different for different people.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker: Because I have this very charismatic...
Speaker: well, kind of introverted charismatic bent where I'm like, Holy Spirit, woo.
Speaker: In the back of the room.
Speaker: Yeah, in the back of the room, in a corner with a book that's titled Holy Spirit, woo.
Speaker: That's how I'm worshipping.
Speaker: This is why you and I relate to each other so well, because I'm the same way.
Speaker: But I have like that charismatic bent where I'm like,
Speaker: Like, I remember when I played Jesus once, I was like, Lord, if you can just literally inhabit me and puppet me, that would be amazing.
Speaker: But then my wife, Shay, who, you know, was raised Catholic, is a lot more liturgical.
Speaker: And with her faith background, being able to see the beauty and, like...
Speaker: taste the elements of the Eucharist is super important to her.
Speaker: So something like that, like the physical tangibleness of that, you know, her creating something with, with God is going to be a lot different for me creating something with God.
Speaker: Like she, she just did her poetry book and you know, I don't, I don't think, I guess maybe I'm putting words in her mouth now, but I don't think she would say that as she was writing, she felt like the Holy spirit was in her and,
Speaker: editing these poems and crafting these new poems.
Speaker: It was just like gritty down to earth, working this out.
Speaker: And then when she went back and read it, she was like, wow, God was really in this with me.
Speaker: And she like noticed patterns and like an arc to it that she hadn't noticed that, you know, so I thought.
Speaker: And honestly, that's usually the way it works.
Speaker: Very rarely are we like, okay, God is inhabiting me and doing the work.
Speaker: And I don't even think I would say he did that when I asked.
Speaker: Most of the time it's us doing the work and
Speaker: But as we're doing the work, we just say, hey, God, please help me.
Speaker: Sometimes it's something as simple as that.
Speaker: Now, coming from Pentecostal and Charismatics, sometimes you actually do feel like, whoa, God's doing something in this moment.
Speaker: Those are so rare and so precious.
Speaker: I've had one.
Speaker: I think I've had maybe two, possibly three that I can point to and say, I know.
Speaker: I knew in the moment.
Speaker: that God was there and was utilizing what was happening.
Speaker: Most of the time, it's just surrendering and trusting.
Speaker: And like, I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker: I don't know if this is going to be what God wants or not, but I'm going to give it my best, my all.
Speaker: And like with Shay, a lot of times you don't realize until you get a chance to look back and say, oh, wow.
Speaker: Or for theater people...
Speaker: and the singer is a good example.
Speaker: It wasn't until I heard, until I heard from audiences and I had people come and say, this is happening in my life and this is how this is speaking into it.
Speaker: And this is, you know, this, and, and then, then all the work, all the late nights, all the tears that were shed, all, you know, and sometimes that's the hardest ones where you're in it and you're like, why am I doing this?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And usually the ones that I can look back and say, well, God used that in a very visible, tangible way are also the ones where in the middle of it are when I'm questioning it the most.
Speaker: The ones where I'm saying, I don't know if we're doing this right.
Speaker: I don't know if God's in this.
Speaker: I can't feel him.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: But those are usually also the ones where I get to the end of my rope and I'm like, I keep going.
Speaker: And I just do the work and trusting that God is going to do something with it.
Speaker: And I think for most, for most of the things that we do, you know, we make decisions best we can with the guidance that we have.
Speaker: And ultimately it all comes down to faith.
Speaker: It all comes down to God, I'm going to trust that I'm hearing from you correctly.
Speaker: And I'm going to,
Speaker: move forward or, or not move forward sometimes, you know, it's like, okay, God, I'm going to, I'm going to trust that I just need to be patient and you're doing your thing.
Speaker: That's probably the hardest for me is those periods where I, where, where I need to stand back and not do.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Um, but I think, um,
Speaker: except for those very, very, and usually those rare occurrences when I can say, yes, I felt God's manifested presence in this moment came after months, if not years of hard, tough work where I was questioning whether God was in it over and over and over again.
Speaker: And am I, am I doing this for the right reasons, God?
Speaker: Am I, you know, so much self doubt, but, but,
Speaker: ultimately it's just, I had faith.
Speaker: I trusted God and did the work, even if it didn't make sense to me.
Speaker: And then it came to the point where God's manifested presence was there.
Speaker: And then I could say, then I looked back and I'd say, wow, God was there the whole time.
Speaker: I didn't feel him the whole time.
Speaker: I, I struggled the whole time.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: But then it all comes down to, you know, what it comes down to in life all the time is are we trusting that he's there?
Speaker: Are we having faith that God actually has our best interest in mind in everything?
Speaker: And ultimately, having that trust and having that faith, no matter what you're doing, whether it's like accounting or customer service or being an artist or being a husband or being a friend or being a, you know, I think...
Speaker: When we fail, it's because we stop trusting that God has us.
Speaker: I know for me, when I've made bad decisions, it's when I stop trusting that God is there.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: I got really deep with that.
Speaker: I'm sorry.
Speaker: Oh, that's okay.
Speaker: That was good.
Speaker: That was actually stuff I feel like I needed to hear.
Speaker: So that was good.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: I'm going to draw us towards a close.
Speaker: I have one more question that is not on your list because I thought of it like 15 minutes ago.
Speaker: But I think I'm going to ask it at the end of every question.
Speaker: What's funny is we didn't do some of the questions on the list.
Speaker: Oh, I know.
Speaker: I was jumping around.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The audience, if you guys loved this so much, then let me know and we'll do an extended edition where I'll ask some of the other questions, which might be repetitive because I feel like we answered some of the questions in some of the other questions.
Speaker: But I will sell myself out for extra content that might be repetitive, if you so desire.
Speaker: Anyways, so our last question.
Speaker: What would be your number one or your top three, if you can't pick one, resource for Christian artists who are trying to develop themselves artistically and spiritually?
Speaker: specifically for, for artists who want to honor God.
Speaker: Just in general.
Speaker: Like if, if, if a new Christian artist came up to you and was like, I'm a Christian, I'm an artist.
Speaker: I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker: Uh, where, where's a good place to a good resource book or, or documentary or something.
Speaker: Um, okay.
Speaker: Um, I'm going to try not to make this a long answer.
Speaker: First and foremost, Scripture, the Bible.
Speaker: Get yourself in the Bible as much as you can.
Speaker: Get yourself in a community that worships and not just does music.
Speaker: Get yourself in a community that honestly asks themselves, what does God want out of this life for us?
Speaker: If you're wanting to honor God with your art, you need to understand where God's heart is.
Speaker: The most present thing we have to figure that out from step one is scripture.
Speaker: Go to the Gospels first.
Speaker: Spend time in the Psalms.
Speaker: Make sure you're working your way through the New Testament.
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: Because I think those are going to open yourself up to God's character and have an understanding of God's love and his mercy and his grace.
Speaker: It will also open your eyes to a lot of the harsh realities that are depicted in scriptures that we as in the American church culture kind of want to push under the rug.
Speaker: Like?
Speaker: 20% of Genesis.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And every other Psalm that you read.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Where he's like, Lord, can you just kill my enemies?
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And then 10 minutes later, they're talking about how God is honoring them.
Speaker: And, you know, the Psalms are a wonderful place to start, especially as an artist, because it tells you that God can handle it.
Speaker: God doesn't need you to be sanitized.
Speaker: You don't need to be sanitized to create for the Lord, to have a life for the Lord.
Speaker: In fact, the Bible is probably the dirtiest, ugliest, grittiest book you will read in your life.
Speaker: I have a friend that's like, you could totally make a Game of Thrones style show out of the Old Testament.
Speaker: Oh, absolutely.
Speaker: And it would probably be more controversial than Game of Thrones is.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So, Scripture reflects life, but it also guides you toward the character of God.
Speaker: Yes, there's the ugly grittiness of reality and life on this earth and humanity and, you know, all the things that the Bible talks about.
Speaker: But the Bible also says,
Speaker: There's a way to transcend those things and be in connection with God.
Speaker: So one resource, if you don't do anything else as a believer wanting to do anything, whether it be art, whether it be manufacturing, whether it be whatever, be in the Bible.
Speaker: Be in the Bible as much as you can.
Speaker: I've had seasons where that's been harder than others.
Speaker: And some that are like right now, I'm in a season where it's super, super easy.
Speaker: Now, some of the books I'm reading are not super, super easy, but I have a genuine desire to be in God's word every day.
Speaker: Sometimes you got to fake it till you make it.
Speaker: But scripture is the one place that we know without a doubt that God's character is reflected.
Speaker: So as an artist, if you're wanting to get to that point of spirit and truth, reflect truth, but in a way that's worshipful, that's loving to God, you can't go wrong with going to the Bible first.
Speaker: Second to that, I would say pray.
Speaker: Let yourself develop a habit of prayer, which for me is super hard.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I'm really good at praying for other people.
Speaker: I'm really, really lousy at praying for myself and just getting to that space where I'm like, okay, this is just going to be a moment with me and God.
Speaker: And sometimes that means I tend to pray by typing, which is weird.
Speaker: Sometimes I'll sit there and I'll just have a blank screen and I'll just let God's presence be there.
Speaker: And I'm like, God, I'm just here.
Speaker: If you want to say something, great.
Speaker: If you don't, great.
Speaker: If I want to say stuff, I will.
Speaker: Sometimes I don't.
Speaker: Sometimes I'm just like, God, I just want to be with you for a few minutes.
Speaker: So scripture, prayer.
Speaker: After that, wow, there are so many resources out there.
Speaker: So a couple that have been really helpful to me, I don't know if these are still in publication, but there's the Reflective Life series by Ken Gere, G-I-R-E.
Speaker: Um, and he has two books that really impacted me.
Speaker: One is the, uh, the reflective life, I believe it's called.
Speaker: And then another one is called is reflecting on the movies, um, where he teaches you about how to look for God's voice in movies.
Speaker: And that has, that became like almost a handbook for me to, it's like, how do I see God?
Speaker: How do I try and hear God through the things that I'm consuming?
Speaker: Um, those two, um,
Speaker: have been lifelong things for me.
Speaker: As an artist, I would also say two people you should look toward are C.S.
Speaker: Lewis.
Speaker: Definitely, especially if you're a newer Christian, read Mere Christianity.
Speaker: You will have come to a whole better understanding of not only who God is and the reality of who he is, but how culture and history and philosophy get it wrong.
Speaker: The other person...
Speaker: I would say just find out any of their stuff, whether it's their fiction writing, some of their nonfiction books, is Madeline L'Engle.
Speaker: She has been life-changing in understanding being a creative person who's wanting to honor God in a truthful, spiritual way.
Speaker: So those are probably the resources that come to the top of my head is like, go to the Bible first.
Speaker: C.S.
Speaker: Lewis and Madeline L'Engle, you're not going to go wrong with almost anything they've written.
Speaker: They will show you how you can be faithful in a way that's blatantly honoring to God, but also not confined.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because secular people can read their stuff and be just as moved.
Speaker: They're fantastic stories, whether you're a believer or not, but you're going to get a lot more out of it if you understand the foundation that they're writing from.
Speaker: So Ken Gehr...
Speaker: C.S.
Speaker: Lewis, Madeline L'Engle, and ultimately just be in scripture and be in prayer.
Speaker: Be praying because God wants to create with you.
Speaker: So he will speak to you.
Speaker: He will make his presence known to you.
Speaker: How he does it, that's going to depend on your relationship with him because very rarely do I actually hear his voice.
Speaker: But he will be there for you.
Speaker: So yeah, those are some resources I would point out.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Tim, thank you so much for joining us on this premiere episode.
Speaker: This has been a wonderful discussion.
Speaker: I've really enjoyed it.
Speaker: I've been edified.
Speaker: And I hope you have been edified as well.
Speaker: If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to hear from you.
Speaker: This podcast is obviously in its infancy because this is the first episode.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: you know, still trying to discern where exactly God's wanting it all to go.
Speaker: So I'd love to hear from you if you have a topic that you would love for us to discuss or somebody that you want me to pester and see if I can interview them.
Speaker: You know, if it's somebody that you've never heard on a podcast before and you're like, boy, I wish this person would be on a podcast.
Speaker: Then I don't know, message me and I'll be annoying to them.
Speaker: You can visit our website if you want to contact us and give any suggestions.
Speaker: You can visit our blog.
Speaker: I'm going to be writing on this topic about being a faithful artist, you know, after our discussion and kind of some of those thoughts there.
Speaker: Thank you all for listening.
Speaker: I just pray that God blesses you as you continue to strive to follow the way of Christ and continue to create to bring him glory.
