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GM Interview - Bob Gerard - Part 2
21 Plays15 days ago
This week we conclude our two-part interview with Bob Gerard, GM, player, Storyteller, Pinballer, and Star Wars fan. We talk about all those things and how they contribute to making you a better GM. Whether you're bringing Star Wars to life with the Hero's Journey or you're replenishing your creativity, Bob's got some great ideas to share with you. We hope you'll enjoy this concluding interview episode. If you haven't heard the first part, it's worth going back instead of picking up in the middle, and if you haven't checked out Bob's podcast, we recommend you give Short for a Stormtrooper a try.
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Tabletop Tune-Up. I'm your host, Ben Dyer. This week, we are concluding our conversation with Bob Girard. We're talking about fan fiction, Star Wars, storytelling, and how you can use all of those things to help you be a better GM.
High School Fan Fiction Days
00:00:25
Speaker
Tune up, level up your mind Tune up, your press has now begun Tune up, I'll show you how it's done
00:00:47
Speaker
I just remember in high school, this is like in 1990, maybe 89. My, my best friends were, some of my best friends were into fan fiction. They would write star, Star Trek stories.
00:01:00
Speaker
Yeah. This is on like these use net groups. Like it wasn't even like, maybe it was AOL use groups or something like that. I don't remember. Yeah. They would swap these like fan fiction stories about, you know, and I was like,
00:01:15
Speaker
what is this? Like, I remember thinking like, this is, This is crazy, but it was super fun. And they were all enjoying it and they were kids learning how to write. What a great experience.
Star Wars Fan Fiction and Galaxy’s Edge
00:01:26
Speaker
Well, you know, i had a I had a fan fiction project that I worked on for a while um as Star Wars Galaxy's Edge was fixing to open up at Disneyland and Disney World. And, you know, and and I'm also a big theme park fan and a big Disney fan.
00:01:43
Speaker
And which I know you love going to Disneyland and Disney World, Mark. Oh, no my God. Yeah. I love it. I love like sunbird. Exactly. But I started thinking because, you know, they were talking about how it's going to be very immersive. You're going to live your Star Wars adventure. And, you know, the cast members aren't going to talk. They're not going to know what Tomorrowland is. They're only going to know that they live on the planet Batuu.
00:02:05
Speaker
And then I started thinking about, well, how is this actually going to work? Like, for example, I knew that they were going to sell Coke products in in Galaxy's Edge. And I was like, how is it that you've got Coke products?
00:02:20
Speaker
from Earth in Galaxy's Edge. So I wrote a little fan fiction story. I created this ah newspaper called the Batuu and Recky.
00:02:30
Speaker
and ah And so it was just like a report about Das and Ani, two Rhodian characters um who are importing these exotic drinks.
Pandemic Pause and Fanbase Resurgence
00:02:44
Speaker
And, you know, it was it was Das, D-A-S, and Ani, like Dasani, water. And the reason I picked that was because, God, I'm really nerding out on you guys here. So bear with me. We're here for it, man.
00:02:56
Speaker
is They have the bottles, when you go and you buy your Coke products or your Dasani water at Galaxy's Edge, the bottles actually have the Orabesh, the Star Wars writing on it, okay?
00:03:09
Speaker
So now if you picture in your mind the Dasani, the regular Dasani logo. You know how the S is like really big in the middle of it? Well, what they did in the Star Wars bottles was it was DAS in Oribesh and then that big like Earth S to still be kind of the trademark and then ANI. So it was really like DAS slash ANI.
00:03:31
Speaker
was like, oh, so these are the names of the two guys. And i so I published that out on a Star Wars Galaxy's Edge fan page on Facebook. And I got some attention from it. People started following it. So I started writing just about once a week. I would write an article from the Batuu and Reki. And it was some sort of an explanation of how...
00:03:51
Speaker
like this fantasy world and this real world were working together. And I lost my mojo on it with the with the lockdown, with COVID, you know, when everything was shut down. And so I kind of lost my mojo on it. And then it was like really hard to pick it up
Essence of Star Wars in RPGs
00:04:05
Speaker
again.
00:04:05
Speaker
Well, here's the funny thing, you guys, is I've just discovered that people have been discovering it. Like I haven't written anything in two or three years, but all of a sudden I've got like over 500 followers,
00:04:19
Speaker
Oh, wow. For my little Batoon Recce page. And so I'm like, you know, I think I need to pick it up again. You need to point them to your podcast. I do. And I think I'm going to start doing the Batoon Recce again. That's fun. You know, and have that go back and forth. so What did I like about this story, though, is you're you're taking all kinds of like found objects and you're building story into them.
00:04:39
Speaker
And I yeah think there's such a great lesson for us in that. I'm curious, ah when you think about what it is that you...
Influence of 'Andor' on Storytelling
00:04:49
Speaker
like capturing about Star Wars in a game. And I don't think they all have to be Star Wars games, but I think that sensibility that we see in Star Wars, you can see it in Star Wars, certainly, but then of course, in other kinds of adventures and stories and games, like what kinds of things do you think are kind of hallmarks, you know, that that you would bring into an RPG?
00:05:08
Speaker
That's a really interesting story because Ben, I think I would have answered that a little bit differently had you asked me two months ago before season two of Andor came out. um Yeah.
00:05:19
Speaker
Which was a very, very different take on Star Wars. And yet still, to me, felt 100% like Star Wars. it was Star Wars for grownups, essentially.
00:05:31
Speaker
And we're going to disclaimer here. Mark has not seen either season of Andor. So don't think we have to worry about spoilers. But I do think this is a be discovered episode. Yeah. Andor is on my list of shows to watch only because I've heard how good it is. Yeah. And I will put aside my love hate with star Wars and just try to embrace Andor.
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah, I honestly think you'll like it a lot. I think you'll really, really be impressed by it. um I realized, you know, I've got a little bit of recency bias and I've got a little bit of Star Wars bias, but I have never been as emotionally invested in a story in my entire life as I was in the last six episodes of Andor.
Importance of the Hero's Journey
00:06:17
Speaker
Thanks, Bob. I've been running the game for you for how long? I'm sorry, dude. But you know what? If Bracabash doesn't survive the final battle against Gunstrad, I can probably wake up the next morning and be fine.
00:06:31
Speaker
But, you know, have we not? Well, no, I'm not going to spoil it for you. um i'm looking forward though I'm looking forward to watching Andor, though. it's got It's really good. I've heard good things. Yeah. but To really answer your question, Ben, for me, it it does come back to the hero's journey stuff. And that that is kind of the connection in my story that we weren't quite making yet is I never had heard of Joseph Campbell or the hero's journey until ah about 25 years ago, I figured it was the Smithsonian Institute.
00:07:03
Speaker
had an exhibit with all of these props and costumes and stuff like that from Star Wars. And we went, ah my two Star Wars friends and I, and we bundled my nephew, who I think was 10 or 11 at the time, into a van. And we drove from Chicago to Washington, D.C.
00:07:20
Speaker
to go visit the holy relics was the way we looked at it. The theme of the actual exhibit was, it was called Star Wars and the Magic of Myth. And it was about Hero's Journey and Joseph Campbell and how Lucas capitalized on that ah to build out the beats. And that's essentially what Star Wars is.
00:07:39
Speaker
And that's where I realized that the hero's journey story really resonates with me. So, you know, I say that that's true of all stories that for me, I need the hero's journey for it to really resonate, but especially with Star Wars, when I'm playing a Star Wars game, ah whether it's a TTRPG or whether it's a video game or you know, whether we're on the Galactic Star Cruiser, I want to see those hero's journey beats and feel like I've really overcome some conflict ah to accomplish something that has some stakes.
00:08:12
Speaker
You there's a really good side note in there, which is that somebody might have answered that question and said things like, you know, well, you've got to have kind of a rundown technology and you've got to have ah droids and you've got to have X-wing fighters or lightsabers or whatever. Right. And they might have looked at all of this kind of surface materials. But what's interesting about what you said is if you have all that stuff, but you don't have that hero's journey, there's gonna be something feels little hollow about it, I'm guessing.
00:08:37
Speaker
I would think so, too. Yeah. You know, I spent a couple of years working at a video game company out here in L.A.
Diverse Connections with Star Wars
00:08:43
Speaker
when I first started. ah while i was being interviewed by one of the guys who was going to be on my team. And at the end of it, he's like, oh, I hear you're a big Star Wars fan. what do you like about Star Wars? and yeah I mean, that that answer will change occasionally as well, like my preference for what movies and like, do I like the prequels or do I not like the prequels? That changes.
00:09:01
Speaker
But I said, oh, you know, it's like a story of redemption, like, you know, all of this kind of spiritual symbolism for me that really mattered to me, helped me get through my adolescence and all that kind of stuff. It's really important to me.
00:09:14
Speaker
It's like, oh, that's cool. I like the spaceships.
00:09:19
Speaker
And, you know, I was kind of like, oh my gosh, that's tragic. You're missing it. But no, I realize I've matured and, you know, it depends on who you are. And like, if that's what brings you in, that's great. One of the things I really love about Star Wars, and and I'm going to defend that guy yeah right now, is I love the droids.
00:09:36
Speaker
Sure. droids are one of my favorite thing about Star Wars. Yeah. I like the design of them. i like the aesthetic. like I always thought the way they look was kind of funky. Yeah. um i would The one time I ever got to play a Star Wars game,
00:09:49
Speaker
I played a droid and, um, it was a lot of fun. I played this droid that was a, uh, I mean, we had, was it CTPO was the translator droid. Well, my droid was a translator droid, but he was a translator for one of the Jabba's like the Hutts, you know? Okay. So he was, he was used to dealing with bad guys.
00:10:08
Speaker
And so um his programming was all about like being, being basically a bad guy. Yeah. Yeah. It was a lot of fun, but, um, So I get what that guy's saying. And it's a very aesthetic thing that I viscerally see a droid and I get kind of excited.
00:10:26
Speaker
Like, i'm like, oh, that's Star Wars to me. And I do, i you know, I do love that aspect of it. I love the rundown universe aspect of it. And, You know, Ben, I think that's ultimately one of the reasons that the galactic star cruiser failed was because it was so clean and pristine.
00:10:46
Speaker
And I think it's true. a lot more people. Yeah. They would want a star Wars that felt a little bit more like the millennium Falcon. So got a question for you, kind of like talking a little bit about these things that we aesthetically like about star Wars and what makes us think about star Wars.
00:11:04
Speaker
I think about the current crop of star Wars films. I really don't care much for some people like them. I'm talking about awaken rise and those three films that came out.
00:11:17
Speaker
Force awakens, that's should I rise of Skywalker. What is that current crop kind of inform us as GMs about the danger of the source material? How much of it should we even be touching?
00:11:31
Speaker
Like we're talking about Luke Han and all that kind of stuff. I feel like those movies could have just been better if they just didn't touch it and they did something new. Yeah.
00:11:42
Speaker
And how does that inform? Like when you're running a star Wars game, what are your thoughts on that?
Advice for Game Masters in RPGs
00:11:47
Speaker
My preference would be to not involve any of like the major characters and have it be other stories that are set in that universe.
00:11:58
Speaker
And I think if you look at like the current trop crop of Disney plus shows, um, you know I would argue that the Mandalorian was great until you started bringing in some of the more legacy characters. And then it started suffering a lot. I mean, I still really like the Mandalorian, and but I think it started suffering a little bit.
00:12:18
Speaker
You've got to be very, very careful with using those legacy characters. Tough to do it. Yeah, because you don't... People talk about member berries, right? Like a lot of what ah the the fan service, and I typically hate that term fan service. I just think it's just a way for Star Wars fans to hate what they love in some ways. But, you know, I i get what they're saying. And when when you're just throwing something in there for people to go like, oh, that's really cool.
00:12:46
Speaker
You know, you're like, oh, you know, that's not really gonna further the plot. the Like there's a scene in Rogue One, right? Where they're walking through Jeddah and they bump into the two aliens that hassle Luke in the bar, you know, like a couple of days later on Tatooine. And that's just like, okay, cute. Ha, ha, ha, ha, right?
00:13:08
Speaker
It doesn't really do anything. I think the lesson that I learned as a storyteller or as a GM from the Star Wars sequels is it's important to have a plan.
Creative Recharge at Disneyland
00:13:20
Speaker
you can you can have you know You can let things go in different directions. You can let stories unfold organically, but you have to have a master plan that you're operating from. And that's where those movies suffered is yeah the decision to just say, we're going to have three different auteurs tell their own versions. And then when people didn't like the second one, say, oh, let's go back to the first guy who made us a lot of money.
00:13:45
Speaker
Yeah, and and and also I would advise people to let's not forget that these are these are fantasy movies. Like, they're dressed up as sci-fi, but they're fantasy. They are. So, like, yeah that high fantasy, and it's really high fantasy.
00:14:00
Speaker
Bob, that's that's some some good stuff.
00:14:08
Speaker
Bob, you know what that sound is? Sounds like droids. Getting ready to... Yeah, I know what that is. It's time for a tune-up. they certificate That's right. As we always love to do, we like to conclude our podcast with a tune-up segment.
00:14:22
Speaker
When we have guests on, we like to ask our guests things about how to tune us up. We've been hearing advice all along the way, of course, but um I think we're in a very interesting, this a well-timed podcast, Bob, because I think this is we're ask you a question that I think is going to be a softball for you. I think you've got good answers here, but I think Mark and I are both actually at this point winding down some games.
00:14:44
Speaker
These are games that we've been running too, Bob. you like We've been running these. We're feeling a bit of that burn. Well, and i play I'm playing one of them. And then one of the ones that Ben is running, the Pulp Story.
00:14:56
Speaker
For some reason, I get notified on Discord when you guys are are playing. And so I see all of your Discord text going on. And sometimes I can't help but jump in. So I'm pretty aware of what's going on. Yeah. So these are games that are wrapping up. and i think as GMs, we're finding our creative reserves are a little low.
00:15:13
Speaker
So the question for you is, you know, when you need to recharge your creative spark, you're refreshed, reinvigorated, re-inspired. ah What do you do to tank up? Well, at the risk of being a one trick pony, I'll give you a very specific answer, but then I will generalize it for you is when I am feeling creatively depleted, i go to Disneyland.
00:15:35
Speaker
I grab my iPad and my, you know, my backpack and i go to Disneyland and I set up shop somewhere and I will spend the day working there.
00:15:46
Speaker
So i need to find I need to find my own Disneyland. That's how I generalize this because this is what I'm doing when I try to go to Disneyland is I find that almost every time I go to Disneyland, I am able to see something new and amazing that I really have never noticed before.
00:16:07
Speaker
And one thing that I do as a discipline –
00:16:12
Speaker
Whenever I see something that has any kind of emotional reaction with me, even if it's just like, oh wow, that's really cool. I take a second and I think, what is it that I can take from what I just saw and incorporate it somewhere else?
00:16:27
Speaker
And often that comes through in my day job with creating learning experiences and thinking about learning innovations and the type of stuff that Ben and I do. Well, Ben actually asked me this question the other day, like they've got this thing going on at Disneyland right now where you can buy the key to Disneyland. And I don't have it with me or I would show you and Mark would laugh at me so much because it looks like a toy that is designed for a preschooler. It's plastic and blue and white and like this big key. It's big cartoon key, right? A big cartoon key. And it's electronic. And what you have to do is you go from you go from station to station. You have to find in each land of Disneyland where the station is. And then that station has a keyhole in it.
00:17:05
Speaker
And you put the key in and you unlock that keyhole. And when you've done all nine lands in Disneyland, you can do the final one and you unlock it. And lights, magic, bubbles, balloons, and a little door opens up and there's a pin.
00:17:23
Speaker
like a collectible pin that is your reward for unlocking the magic to Disneyland. So I go through and I do an experience like that. I'm like, okay, this is cheesy, but it's really fun. What is interesting about this? What is compelling?
00:17:36
Speaker
um That idea of I have to go step by step and find different things you know, these different stations, sometimes they're really easy to find, sometimes they're hard, sometimes I need to ask somebody for help, sometimes I don't.
00:17:52
Speaker
I start thinking about, well, how could I take this and apply it to a learning experience? um You know, how could I make this like a knowledge quest where on the next chapter of the journey we make it pretty easy for somebody so they feel like oh okay i can do this really good and i'm i'm making good progress and then we can throw them a really stiff challenge on the next one uh but they know because they've been able to succeed in the past one that they're able to ah they will be able to solve the next one like these are the type of things that i do in the way that i think so the big generalization generalization i have is
00:18:25
Speaker
Just go and explore some something new. Go to some new environment. ah Look at things. Pay attention to what makes any kind of emotional resonance in you.
00:18:38
Speaker
And then think, what can you learn from that that you might be able to apply to recharge your tank with? fantastic. ah Just off the top of my head, I mean, that's making me think of so many different fun things you could do.
00:18:49
Speaker
Your whole key journey, I feel like you could easily translate into the key of the Arch Magus in like a D&D game. And you've got to go to all these different mage citadels and unlock, right? Yeah, for sure. And face all kinds of- And all the kids running around screaming are like goblins that you have yeah sure you have to defeat. Yeah. um God, I'm horrible. I'm sorry. Yeah. But, you know, that would actually be a funny aspect of it, right? Is like, what if the party has the key of the magis that they have to do, like, just like you said, Ben, but they get to that first place to unlock it. And they realize that there's 50 other parties at the same time who are going through the same quest and they all have their own quest.
00:19:28
Speaker
And it's just a battle of who's going to get there first. Right. right So, yeah, you know, you could just start riffing on things like that. And that's that's how I recharge. And I also like this other idea of like, it doesn't have to be a Disneyland thing that could be a little prohibitive for some folks, but like things that are occurring to me, go to an escape room, get a puzzle box, buy a new board game. It's got some great design in it.
00:19:49
Speaker
You know, there's so many different things you could do just to kind of, ah you know, touch base with new experiences. I think that's the, my kind of takeaway here. Go see a movie. um
Finding Inspiration in Unconventional Ways
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah. You know, one thing that I've been doing a lot that I've always enjoyed, but now I'm really passionate about is pinball.
00:20:05
Speaker
I joined a pinball league, and so I'm playing a lot more pinball than I ever did before. And I'm learning so much from the design of new pinball machines and how you are able to tell a story that with, you know, basically like flipping a metal ball around on flippers and keeping gravity from draining it down the bottom.
00:20:27
Speaker
It's just amazing what pinball designers are able to do right now to really make you feel like you're immersed in this story. You guys, this is going to be our longest podcast ever. It is going to be a two-parter. Oh my goodness. It is our first ever a two-parter. I'm so excited for this. Wow.
00:20:42
Speaker
am honored. Thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a blast. I'm sure we'll have you on again in the future if you've got time and would like to join us again. Hey, everybody, go check out Short for a Stormtrooper.
00:20:54
Speaker
You will not be disappointed. It is a lot of fun. Thank you. Please do. Yeah, Bob's a great host. We'll put a link in our show description for this show in a couple weeks. Some new material for you. And until then, keep those dice rolling.
00:22:41
Speaker
Tune up, level up your mind Tune up, your press has now begun Tune up, I'll show you how it's done
00:23:15
Speaker
Do not go, level up your mind Do not go, give them a party I do not go, pick up, show you how to go
00:24:36
Speaker
Come get your tune-ups, time for your tune-up Game needs a tune-up, come get your tune-up Time for your tune-up, game needs a tune-up Game needs a tune-up Tune-up