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Publishing Data Columns at the Washington Post with Philip Bump
327 Plays3 years ago
Philip Bump is a correspondent for The Washington Post based in New York. He largely focuses on the numbers behind politics and he is the author of the weekly newsletter, How To Read This Chart.
In this week’s episode of the show, Philip and I talk about his work at the Post, and dealing with all of the haters. We also talk about his work using data in the media and starting his new newsletter.
Be sure to check out my new Winno community! Get great dataviz tips and tricks to your phone every week!
Episode Notes
Philip Bump | Washington Post | Twitter
How to Read This Chart newsletter
Mentioned articles:
- Can Google searches predict where coronavirus cases will soon emerge?
- At the end of the second year of the pandemic, the effects are more obviously partisan than ever
- Which is easier in your state: Buying a rifle or voting?
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Philip Bump
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome back to the PolicyViz podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabisch. On this week's episode of the show, I'm really happy to chat with The Washington Post's Philip Bump. If you don't know Philip's work at The Post, you really should because it's a great combination of politics and the economy and, of course, data visualization. And recently, Philip started a new newsletter called How to Read This Chart, which I thought when I first signed up for it would be about his work at The Post.
00:00:41
Speaker
and maybe some of the more deep dives into some of his columns and maybe some things that didn't make it to the post site, but are sort of on a cutting room floor. But it's really a deep dive into data visualization. And it's not necessarily about tools and how to go from step A to step B and build something, but it's really about his process and how he thinks about creating a visualization that can work and communicate the stories that he's trying to tell, which again is primarily about politics and the economy and other breaking news.
00:01:10
Speaker
So I think it's a really interesting conversation. I was really fascinated to hear about how he thought about building this newsletter and how he thinks about making arguments and telling stories in his columns and in the newsletter as well. So I am going to pass it off to that interview with Philip Bump, and I hope you'll enjoy this week's podcast.
00:01:29
Speaker
Hey, Philip.
Shared Western New York Roots
00:01:30
Speaker
Good afternoon. Welcome to the podcast. Good afternoon. How are things? Good. How are you? Good. I mean, you know, it looks like we're heading into spring here. Long last. Yeah. I mean, it does feel like it wasn't a bad winter. It just feels like it's been going on forever. Yeah. I mean, every winter is inherently bad.
00:01:46
Speaker
I mean, I love snow. Don't get me wrong. I'm from the snow, but I'm from Rochester, New York. Oh, okay. So I'm from Buffalo, so I didn't even know that. Oh, man. It's the Western New Yorkers. The Western New York connection. That's it. So, yeah, you know, I mean, you got to love, you know, you get to about October and you're like, I wish you would snow. And then by February, you're like, okay, tell this. Let's, you know, let's move on. And then for us, we still have another like four months to deal with.
00:02:07
Speaker
Then you get those glorious month and a half and then you're right back to it. I think it was a few years ago where we had enough snow where we could build the igloos at the end of the driveway, which my kids aren't familiar with, but that's like how I grew up. You just have this thing for months that you could just keep building on. Snow forts, yeah. That's just the way it is.
00:02:30
Speaker
That's a good start. Western New York Connection.
Philip Bump's Journey to Journalism
00:02:32
Speaker
So thanks for coming on the show. I want to chat about a variety of things you've got going on. I want to start with your basic day job because it seems like kind of the perfect job for someone who's into politics and the economy and data visualization. And we'll come to the newsletter in a little bit. But like, is this where you always want it to be?
00:02:53
Speaker
No, it's interesting. So my dad is a sports writer. And so I grew up both going to a lot of games, Rochester Red Wings, Buffalo Bisons on occasion as well back in the day. So he was a journalist, but I never sort of foresaw myself going into journalism. I came to it actually to a large extent through technology.
00:03:13
Speaker
When I was in college, I was in college in the early 90s right at the advent of the web, I taught myself HTML, I made websites, I taught myself Perl, I learned how to do dynamic websites, and then I discovered that it would be fun to have my own blog, and so I made my own blog.
00:03:28
Speaker
You know, so it was me sort of riffing on what was happening in the news, but then also I worked for a while as a designer at Adobe. And so I also knew how to do design stuff. And so there's a lot of sort of like the data side, the math side manifested in the design work to a large extent and in what I was sort of interested in and being able to take things that were in the news and see them, which is just sort of how I see things often just through this lens of data. And so then I was, you know,
00:03:58
Speaker
Took a while. It wasn't until I was in my 30s that I ended up working in media Specifically because I found myself I was just writing for websites Like I wrote, you know media all the time and it's just sort of like you know on the side from my regular job And then I was like,
Challenges in Political Journalism
00:04:14
Speaker
you know, why don't I just do this? And so well, so you didn't go through journalism school as to be a journalist Gotcha. I don't know as a philosophy major
00:04:26
Speaker
Well, that's turned out that's turned out pretty well, right? So, you know, so things have obviously changed and moved around with with the post. And, you know, there was there was wonk blog for a while was sort of like the kickoff to this more data. I don't want to call it data driven because that's not really fair, but like more in the weeds data, I guess, than traditionally. But you write so much about politics so much. I want to ask, like, how do you keep your sanity like?
00:04:51
Speaker
especially today. And I'm sure the amount of hate mail that you get is nothing that I want to want to look at. But like, so how do you keep your standing? How do you maintain your, I don't know, like your, your confidence or, you know, how do you not have panic attacks every day, basically? It's an interesting question. And
00:05:11
Speaker
You know, I mean, there's, there's a very honest answer, which is that it's, you know, there's a lot of stress. It's very stressful for everybody. It's been a stressful, you know, six years, seven years. I have two kids that were born in that meantime. So, you know, layer on top dealing with toddlers. And, you know, the fact that no matter what you write, there are going to be some people who are very angry about it. Um,
00:05:40
Speaker
And how do I deal with it? I don't know. Maybe I'm just in Europe to it by now. But yeah, it can be a drag.
00:05:47
Speaker
You know, I mean, I'll say this, you know, if you read something that you think is good from someone, take a moment and send them a note if you can, because it's useful, because usually the only people who are motivated the right are the people who are furious. So, you know, if you can do that, that's nice. But yeah, I mean, there's no, you know, look, I'm not going to pretend that life is harder for me than it is for a lot of Americans. You know, I have a job, I maintain a job through the pandemic.
00:06:14
Speaker
was able to work from home, like I have a lot of advantages a lot of people don't have. And so, you know, it's difficult for everyone. And I think everyone would like to get back to a time of normalcy and stability and, you know, uninteresting times as the adage has.
00:06:29
Speaker
Right. And do you feel as, I mean, I'm sure you get a lot of the hate mail is sort of like off the deep end, but do you feel because your stuff is so heavily data driven and a lot of it, at least my reading of it is it's very much like, here's the data. Here are the facts. Do you feel like when you get that mail that you're just like, I'm just presenting the facts here. And if you hate that, then fine. But like, do you ever feel like we'll show me your facts that make the argument as opposed to I just hate you because I just hate you.
00:06:58
Speaker
No, it depends on what I'm dealing with. Obviously, there are ways to present data that influence perceptions. That's obviously the case. I'm not going to pretend that every single time I drop a number to an article, I am doing so. Expecting it to be treated as entirely objective and not in support of an argument. That's how it works.
00:07:20
Speaker
The way in which what you just described manifests most frequently is on the voter fraud stuff, which I write about a lot because it really is a data story. It is about evidentiary processes and it's about trying to, there's this huge
00:07:37
Speaker
group of people that's trying to use statistics to prove fraud occur. They don't ever actually prove fraud. They just say, look at this weirdness in the numbers, therefore fraud must have happened, which is this disconnect that they usually don't recognize. But this is a black and white issue. And so it is absolutely the case that there are times in which I will write something about how there has not been any rampant fraud in the 2020 election and get feedback that's just like, oh, yes, there is. You just ignore the evidence. And it's like, look,
00:08:04
Speaker
By now, I am better versed in the evidence for voter fraud than probably 99% of Americans. There's nothing that I have not seen and considered. If I could discover there's rampant voter fraud in the 2020 election, I would win a full surprise.
00:08:23
Speaker
But it's just not there.
Debunking False Narratives
00:08:25
Speaker
And so it's very that's very frustrating to be like, look, this is objectively not true. I can show you how it is not true and how you're being misled and have you be like, you're a liar and you're fake news. Right. Yeah. So so when you're doing.
00:08:38
Speaker
Voter fraud is a good example. You've probably been neck deep in the data because there's a lot of data that you can parse from all the election places around the world or around the country. What makes you happiest in the process of doing your work? Is it being deep in the data? Is it writing the article? Is it making the graph? Which part do you really get excited about?
00:09:03
Speaker
I think it depends on what I'm running with. I mean, I enjoy making a nice, complicated graph, you know, probably too complicated at times, absolutely, admittedly. But, you know, that sometimes I also just like, I like to debunk talksters, right? You know, like, yeah, this guy, Douglas Frank, who's this math teacher from Ohio, who puts together all this total
00:09:24
Speaker
I don't know what words I'm allowed to say in this podcast, total nonsense about voter fraud. It's fun to pick that apart and be like, look, this is stupid and here's why it's stupid. Without being like, you're stupid for blaming it, but there's no reason to take this as base value and here's why. That sort of thing is fun because I mentioned that I've been a philosophy major and the value of that is in being able to
00:09:47
Speaker
you know, walk through an argument and, you know, assess things logically. Like that's the side of philosophy that always really appealed to me. And, you know, I feel like that's something that I'm fairly adept at, particularly in regards to these nonsensical claims. Yeah. So in addition to your column at the Post, you recently started a new newsletter called How to Read This Chart. And I've really been enjoying it. And what was kind of surprising to me when you launched it is that it really is like a database in the weeds type of newsletter. It's not like
00:10:16
Speaker
you know, the post that you wrote on the cutting room floor, it's like a really like, here's how I made this charter. Here's the varieties of that chart. Can you talk a little bit of how you decided to go that route rather than, you know, you know, any of the millions of other ways you could have gone? Sure. So one of the things that I have learned over the course of my career and experience on the internet, which is longer than it might be, you know, I tend to be people that think I'm younger than I actually
00:10:39
Speaker
but I've been around a long time. And one of the things I've learned is that there's always, if there's something I think is interesting, there's an audience for it, right? You know, the example I love to use is furries, right? There's this group of people like to dress like animals and they probably thought they were weirdo outcasts. And then all of a sudden they get online, they discover they're all these other people that they can have a convention.
00:10:56
Speaker
Every six months, there's there is if you are into something, there's going to be an audience for that. And so the thing that I'm into is just looking at data visualizations and presenting them and figuring out how they work and why they're interesting when they don't work and when people try and mislead through numbers. And so I wouldn't say that I'm in the weeds in the sense that I'm like, you know,
00:11:15
Speaker
open up R or enter this code. Not quite there. But still, it's often not necessarily a step by step in how you built it, but it's a step by step in how you thought through it. Yeah, no, right. Because part of the goal here is to have people be more confident in figuring out how does they want to actually resent that. So I don't want to just be
00:11:35
Speaker
Here's a cool chart from the Financial Times that you can never ever replicate, but rather it's like, here's why this works. Even if I don't say, this is precisely how you can make this chart, although I have at times offer tools, so I include a nice tool that you'd make that allow you to replicate some of this stuff. I do think it's valuable nonetheless to say, here is a different way of thinking about how you can present this data. The thing that I go back to,
00:12:00
Speaker
And you know, every single newsletter, someone's like, oh, you should read that. We're tough, which I have. And I've been to one of his seminars and I actually put that on the newsletter. It's like, Hey, everyone I've been to, I've seen him. I'm familiar with him. And then of course people didn't read that one or they sign up later. They're like, Oh, you should. The thing that he did at his seminar, which was really, really eyeopening for me, uh, it's smart in a way that you might expect.
00:12:21
Speaker
I assume everyone who's listening this knows who he is. And everybody listening to this simultaneously has gone to his seminars and also had some. Okay, so anyway, the thing that I thought was really smart about it is he starts out in the morning and he goes through all this really fascinating stuff, the stuff with the O-rings and yada, yada, yada. And it's really a great assessment of it.
00:12:42
Speaker
Well, at least when I was there, which is probably 20 years ago in San Jose, you come back, you go to lunch, and you come back, and then it's just all about how to do nice charts with PowerPoint. At the time, I was like, well, that's so hokey. But then I'm like, oh, but of course, all these businesses are going to pay their people to go and take this. They get this, but it's also valuable. It's valuable that people would be like, okay, that's cool how he did that thing in PowerPoint. I want to both inculcate an appreciation for data visualization,
00:13:11
Speaker
and by making it so it's not intimidating, but at the same time also offer something of use so that people actually can take away something that they can actually apply in their real lives.
Self-Taught Data Visualization
00:13:20
Speaker
Right. Do you try to watch the dataviz field in terms of like, you know, just like general conversations that are happening on Twitter or are you just kind of like more on the media side, the conversations around dataviz maybe on the media side of things?
00:13:33
Speaker
Yeah, no, just on the media side. I mean, I'll come across stuff usually. I mean, I absolutely encourage people to send me either good or bad data visualizations for the newsletter just because it's useful. But, you know, I mean, I come across interesting stuff every week and I'm like, okay, this is what I want to focus on. So that's what I look at.
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you know, it is in part because I came to graphic design data visualization as being self-taught. I sort of, I've never been sort of part of communities in that way, right? Which is probably short-sighted, but I think that's probably for actualization.
00:14:06
Speaker
Well, I mean, you know, I've had, what, more than 200 episodes of this podcast. And I don't think I've had two people come to the date of his field from the same spot. Right. I mean, you know, you're from philosophy. I've had, you know, astronomers on the show. I've had all sorts of different people. So, yeah, I mean, it's it's interesting and it's interesting how people think about their process of working their way through, you know, through the process of visualization.
00:14:30
Speaker
I'm curious, when you saw Tufti 20 years ago, did he have the white gloves with the Galileo book, or did he get that book later? Oh, God, I don't remember. Is that how you say it? I always thought it was Tuft. I never. I always said Tufti, but, you know, I'm sure he would be happy to tell us. Right. He gives a little chart about why the pronunciations in various times. So I know you don't talk about this in the newsletter or at least haven't yet, although I feel like I saw maybe a tweet from you the other day about the tool set that you use.
00:14:59
Speaker
And so maybe you could talk about, I know you started Adobe, so I'm guessing you're deep into the Adobe suite, but are you like a coder on top of that? Or are you an Excel guy on top of that? And then how does that intersect or not with what's going on on the graphics desk?
00:15:16
Speaker
Uh, great question. So it is a little embarrassing because I'm like, you know, it's all like ad hoc and bespoke. Really. You know, I mean, I said, I taught myself Pearl. I use, I still use Pearl a lot to like our static because I'm just familiar with that. I can be really clear. I mean, don't use this.
00:15:33
Speaker
I do most of my charts in Illustrator because I know how to use Illustrator really well and it's good. Visualizations, I do coding. I'm actually working on something right now that is just basic JavaScript display using Canvas and HTML and so on and so forth. It's literally is just tools. Over the course of my career, I've just been like, oh, that's cool. How do I do that? Then I talk to myself. There are massive holes that
00:16:02
Speaker
I'm sure I could be much more efficient if I use certain things, but again, I'm old and so I can set my ways, but I can do stuff fast. Those are the tools I use. There is this thing that I pitched actually last week called rawgraphs.io, which takes data sets and re-insurance out really quick, different visualizations in different styles that they can export as an SVG and then bring into Illustrator as well. I use that a lot as well. That's what I really recommend too.
00:16:28
Speaker
And is that for them to use raw graphs for more of those bespoke? I mean, a lot of raw graphs is more of those bespoke sort of off the, you know, off the standard thing. They've got the thank yous and the luvials. So are you using, are you using the charting engine in illustrator and do you hate it as much as everybody else? Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Right. No, I do. Yes. Um, you know, what I use raw graphs for is if I want to do like a scaled scatter plot, because it's super easy to do that in raw graphs and you can't do it in illustrator very easily. Um, you know, I just.
00:16:57
Speaker
you know how when you it's like having an old crappy car and you know how to make it run really fast and you know how to maintain it you know what to do and what not to do that's how illustrator is making graphs and i've just i've had this crappy car a long time right i just i know how to make it work
00:17:13
Speaker
Yeah. No, I hear you. I've been trying to do some Tableau learning this year and it's like all these little things where I'm like, this makes no sense. And then I'll talk to someone who's, you know, great at Tableau. They're like, well, it's an obvious fix, but like you, you know, if you've never driven that car before, you're like, where's the turn signal?
00:17:29
Speaker
But this also goes back to your other question about the graphics. I actually don't work with the graphics desk at the post, which is absolutely at times been a frustration to them. And if any of them are watching, I apologize for having been a frustration. But, you know, I mean, it is we're talking about a very specific product here. And so I tend to do mostly just static images because, you know, that's obviously the post heritage. Right. But it's just it's easier. You know, I don't have to get in and I don't have to figure out
00:17:57
Speaker
I don't have to figure out scaling based on devices and all that nonsense. Right.
Collaboration with The Post's Graphics Desk
00:18:01
Speaker
And so are the various parts then of the post broad enough where they're not so, I'm assuming it's where the graphic sets would be maybe concerned about the branding and the look that everything's sort of consistent just because there's so many different verticals? Yeah, no, they are. I mean,
00:18:19
Speaker
One of the things that I hope happens over the long term is that we have more people who are able to do basic coding and basic graphing. I mean, we have a chartable tool that's internal and turn, pops things out in the proper aesthetic. I use a template that the graphics team made so I make sure I'm using the right type of faces and colors and so on and so forth.
00:18:39
Speaker
it tends to still sort of be aberrant just by the nature of what I'm making, which I'm sure is frustrating to them. It's not the total Wild West, but it's sort of like there's now this one town that's connected by one small railroad. That's my depot and I get to sit on it.
00:19:01
Speaker
You've got the desk that's doing a lot of the custom interactive stuff, but you had mentioned earlier that you are a little more fascinated with the more complex graphs. So is that what gets you excited is like a cool, you know, whatever custom connected scatterplot or seiki diagram or something. And then when you are building those, are you thinking about how to educate your reader and how to read that? Not just like, here's the graph sort of like,
00:19:31
Speaker
You can go figure it out. I try to. I mean, perfect at it. And part of the challenge is obviously that my day job is about responding to the news. And so I don't have, you know, I'm not usually blotting things out in the morning. I'm like, Hey, I should do this. And then by the afternoon I've done it. And so it's, you know, I, I will often not spend as much time as I ought on some more complicated things.
00:19:55
Speaker
Part out of confidence reader and apart out of the oversight of my part part of the goal of how to read this chart Honestly was to get people who read my stuff a lot to feel more familiar with the sorts of things that I do So yeah, I am not as good at as I should be but also, you know, all of us have blind spots, right? I
00:20:12
Speaker
something that's intuitive to me is not necessarily intuitive to others and I may not be able to predict what is not intuitive to others. And so I will get feedback about graphs and then I will, you know, later go back and update posts and, you know, add things and be like, oh, you know, here's how you read this, right? Just to make it more clear.
00:20:27
Speaker
In terms of what really interests me, the things that really interest me are when data really locks into place, even if it's a simple graph. There are two examples for it. One is that I endeavored a couple of years ago to try and figure out how presidential vote results related to the number of licensed gun dealers in a zip code or county, I forget which. I did this plot that was adjusted for population and it was just this absolutely
00:20:54
Speaker
perfect correlation line, which was just really rewarding in what it revealed. There's another time when someone had mentioned on Twitter that they were seeing that there were increases in the number of searches for loss of smell and loss of taste that preceded bumps in COVID cases and places.
00:21:16
Speaker
And so I did a per capita analysis by state and then a Google Trends value for those searches. And it wasn't just that they overlapped, it was that they overlapped the per capita value was literally the same in those states as the scale from zero to 100 search values for Google, which I think was just a weird artifact in the data. But it was just that they overlapped literally exactly. And it was just sort of a fascinating, I don't know if it still holds and I've been meaning to go back and look at it.
00:21:45
Speaker
But it was just those sorts of things where things just overlap and fit exactly when you wouldn't necessarily expect them to. Those are the sorts of things that I find kind of thrilling. To this point you just made about going back. Do you think about going back to things?
Revisiting Data Trends
00:22:00
Speaker
We had all these conversations about COVID vaccinations or COVID infections and the vote share. Do you go back and do you just look out of a sense of personal curiosity or do you end up, if it makes an interesting story, you're like, well, now I can just write about it.
00:22:14
Speaker
Well, there's there's a couple things at play. The first is that I've been at the post since 2014. And so there are, you know, and I read about politics. So this stuff is naturally cyclical. Yeah. And so, you know, I'll look at, you know, how does presidential approval relate to midterms? You know, what is what's the effect of the state of the union on presidential approval? So there are certain things that you can go back to over and over again, because they have new data. Your point about Covid partisanship, I've written about, got it. I write about it biweekly at this point, just because it is
00:22:41
Speaker
I keep expecting the trend to break, but instead the trend keeps exacerbating. And part of this is related to the decreased interest in vaccination among Republicans and so on and so forth. But I mean, that is something that I keep revisiting in part because not
00:22:56
Speaker
Honestly, in part, because I keep getting challenged and being like, well, just, you know, yes, weather was bad last summer, but wait till the winter. And also it happens in Northeast. So we wait till the winter and what happens? Okay, so it's still bad in Brent counties, right? So I mean, it's just, you know, so you want to keep revisiting that. And so now we're like, okay, so what happens if there's another wave that happens this summer? What does that look like? And where is that disproportionately affected? Just this morning I wrote about, you know, the effects of vaccination and the positive benefits of them. I mean, it's just, it's something that,
00:23:22
Speaker
particularly because we're talking about something that has an obvious and immediate public health benefit. It's worth elevating when you can. Right. Philip, thanks so much for coming on the show. You've got the midterms coming up in a few months.
00:23:34
Speaker
Well, let me just ask one last question, I guess, then, because I was about to sign off, but then I was like, one last question. So we're in March. So we've got, I think, you know, at least three big things going on. We've got in the U.S., we've got the midterms coming up in November. We've obviously got the pandemic continuing. We've got Ukraine and Russia. I'm sure many other breaking news things will happen between now and then.
00:23:54
Speaker
But when you look forward to the next six months, do you see your time spent primarily on COVID and then the midterms or are you just sort of like, I'm just going to like whatever, like I'm just going to do what the news is and the interesting data stories that I can tell.
Unpredictability of Writing Topics
00:24:11
Speaker
Yeah, man. I don't know what I'm writing about on Friday. I remember going, I went to Indiana University in the fall of 2019, and I remember talking to them, and they were all just curious. What are you guys going to do for the 2020 election? I was like, okay, here's where our plan is. We're going to do X, Y, and Z, and voter file stuff, and yada, yada, yada. And then March 2020 happens, and then June 2020 happens. It's just like,
00:24:33
Speaker
There's just no way and I've just given up on, am I gonna write about the midterms? Yes, absolutely. 100%. Is that what I anticipate writing about in November? Yeah, sure, October, November. Yeah, absolutely. Is that what I may end up writing about? You know, actually, I have to write about the emergence of Godzilla from the Atlantic Ocean. Like, who that? So, we'll see. I mean, the way things are going, we might have to see that article, so. You never know, man.
00:24:57
Speaker
Alright man, thanks so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it and glad to know we've got a Western New York connection. We got it. That's always good to have. Alright, thanks so much. Thanks man. Thanks everyone for listening to this week's episode of the show. I hope you enjoyed that.
Supporting PolicyViz Podcast
00:25:10
Speaker
I hope you'll check out Philip's column at the post and you should also sign up for the newsletter. I'll put links to both in the show notes so you can check it out.
00:25:18
Speaker
If you'd like to support the show I've got a number of new ways that you can interact with me and you can support the show financially. You can go over to my Patreon page where we now have just a single $5 tier so for $5 a month you get a sneak peek at who the guests are coming up and you can even send me some questions. That's one way you can support the show. Another way you can support the show is through my paid newsletter where you can get some more behind the scenes work
00:25:43
Speaker
You can even get on a Zoom call with me. I'll be setting these up every month for paid subscribers. You can get on Zoom call with me and we can chat about whatever it is you want to chat about, primarily data visualization, maybe some specific challenges you're having, maybe some ways that you're thinking about solving a data visualization, whatever it is, you can check that out. And the other way you can support the show is heading over to the WinO app. The WinO app is a new tool in which I am sending out two or three text messages per week with just a little
00:26:13
Speaker
clip of a visualization I think did a good job in just one kind of tiny aspect maybe it's a good label it's a good color or it's a good technique that I think I might use in my work so check those three options out plus if you want to just share the show
00:26:29
Speaker
with your friends, your family, your networks, please do so. Please subscribe to the show and check out all the great content coming to your way on the PolicyViz blog, YouTube channel and elsewhere. So until next time, this has been the PolicyViz podcast. Thanks so much for listening.
00:26:45
Speaker
A number of people help bring you the policy of this podcast. Music is provided by the NRIs. Audio editing is provided by Ken Skaggs. Design and promotion is created with assistance from Sharon Satsuki-Ramirez. And each episode is transcribed by Jenny Transcription Services. If you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it and review it on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:27:07
Speaker
The Policy Vis podcast is ad-free and supported by listeners. If you'd like to help support the show financially, please visit our PayPal page or our Patreon page at patreon.com slash policyvis.