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Decoding the modern bloke, with Geoff Norcott
2.2k Plays4 months ago
It wasn’t so long ago that one phrase sat above any other in the hierarchy of endorsements for a British or Australian male: “He’s a good bloke.”
You don’t hear it as much in 2024 because blokehood is under attack across the Western world. Historically positive masculine virtues are now shamed as toxically masculine. At a minimum, blokeishness is derided as boorishness by our social betters in the media, politics, business, and culture.
The first step to reclaiming blokehood is understanding it, which is what Geoff Norcott has done. As a rare right-winger, Geoff is a unique voice in British comedy, and has been hugely successful on the stand up circuit, with his podcast, and on TV.
His latest book has made him the official expert on British blokes. It is titled, "The British Bloke: Decoded – From Banter to Man Flu, Everything Finally Explained."
Follow Will Kingston and Fire at Will on social media here.
Subscribe to The Spectator Australia here.
Visit Geoff's website here.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Fire at Will' Podcast
00:00:19
Speaker
G'day and welcome to Fire at Will, a safe space for dangerous conversations. I'm Will Kingston. It wasn't so long ago that one phrase sat above any other in the hierarchy of endorsements for a British or Australian male. Here's a good bloke. There are few sentences in which so much meaning is imbued in so few words. We all have an image in our mind of a good bloke, and I'd suggest those images wouldn't be too far apart from person to person. You don't hear it quite as much in 2024.
Masculinity and Modern Criticism
00:00:54
Speaker
Why? Because blo could is well I guess under its more formal title of masculinity is under attack across the Western world. Historically positive masculine virtues are now shamed as toxically masculine. At a minimum, blokishness is derided as boorishness by our social bettas in the media, politics, business, and culture. For one thing, a world with fewer warnings and freddies and more commences and roots is certainly a duller place. But it's more serious than that. Boys and young men face an incredibly difficult challenge, finding purpose in an age in which many of them are encouraged to think of themselves as innately bad or dangerous.
00:01:37
Speaker
The first step to reclaiming blokehood is understanding it, and admittedly, self-reflection isn't something most blokes are known for.
Jeff Norcott Joins: Exploring British Masculinity
00:01:45
Speaker
I am delighted to be joined by an exception, Jeff Norcott. As a rare right-winger, Jeff is a unique voice in British comedy, and despite the degree of difficulty for any comedian to the right of Marx being considerably greater, He has been hugely successful on the stand-up circuit with his podcast and on TV. His latest book has made him the official expert on British blokes. It is titled The British Bloke Decoded. From banter to man-flu, everything finally explained.
Changing Perceptions in Sports Role Models
00:02:17
Speaker
Jeff, welcome to Fire at Will.
00:02:19
Speaker
Yes, thank you for having me. It was good to hear a cricket reference earlier. You said you said there's less Freddies and Warnies and there's more Cummins and Roots. I know what you mean. I mean, I really like Cummins and Roots, but if you're asking me who I'd want to go drinking with for the day, although Freddy doesn't drink anymore, but in their heyday, I think it's a bit of ah a no-brainer. It is a no-brainer. Well, it's actually a nice little microcosm of the way that We think about blokes or role models as changing in that they're both the captains of their respective sides. And I think it will be a very boring night out with both of them. But they're the ones that get the sponsorship dollars now. They're the ones that get the media attention. And and I get the sense that the guys like Freddie and Mornie would be marginalized if they were making their debuts today.
00:03:02
Speaker
Well, it's just it the society does change and I'm always conscious of, you know, we're not wanting to sound too old and and out of touch. You know, Joe Root is a good bloke in his his own way. You know, like in the context of his age group, they, you know, he might be, he's a bit of a prankster and stuff, but the, the Overton window of blokishness sort of changes. The only thing I would say is that, um, The anecdotes from this generation of sportsmen will be way worse. you know If you go all the way from David Boone doing 56 tins on a flight, you're not going to get that. i mean you'll get You'll get anecdotes about the time that they met the head of KFC to talk about sustainability
Positive Aspects of Being a 'Bloke'
00:03:38
Speaker
or something. you know So it's fine, it's their choice. it's just I suppose the book in itself is... I hope ah sort of try and straddle that line. Sometimes the chaos of being male, you know whatever it is testosterone does to us, the recklessness. And not in a way that it impinges on other people's liberties or happiness, but just those moments where and you just follow a mad idea to its conclusion.
00:04:00
Speaker
cutting loose, those ideas, I think they still have a place. But the problem is, is the way that the cultural discussion has gone, the manosphere, or as it's sometimes called, it does have darker, more toxic ends to it. So, you know, I'm not saying, it's not for me to say whether or not I'm a good or a bad bloke, but normal bloke, you know, it felt like a timely moment to just step in and say, look, The male brand has taken a bit of a batter in, and I think the vast majority of blokes are still good. So let's articulate how and why. and And the book is just that really. It's a sympathetic stock take for your average
Balancing Modern Masculinity
00:04:34
Speaker
bloke. And of course, it's called British, but even as you're talking there, the the cultural overlaps with Australia will be will be pretty significant.
00:04:40
Speaker
Yeah, I noted at the start of the book that you did concede that it is a British phenomenon, but from memory, there is ah there is a whiff of blokishness in Australia, but you did say Australians are 20 years behind, and so we' we'll live in there. In the context of blokishness, I actually thought it was a good thing. Might well be, yeah. It's interesting the way you frame that. in that a lot of the attacks on modern masculinity are probably coming from a good place. in that you know There have been dark sides of male culture in the past and and there still are, but like so many of the conversations today, like race, stuff around gender, it's almost like the balance then gets tipped entirely in the other direction and we lose any sense of perspective.
00:05:25
Speaker
but yeah i mean The moment that males sort of became a pejorative, you sort of fited like it's it's changed a lot within a short space of time. I think i believe that they're in a version of male privilege. I don't think it's a broad thing. I believe it existed when I i was younger. ah without Without doubt, there was I could remember getting a job once. I was up against four female candidates who were definitely more suited to the job. But because I was a bloke, it was a sales role, they just wanted to... And it was two women that gave me that job, by the way. However, society tends to overcorrect, right? So they go to the point where let's redress inequalities, let's try and root out sexism in the workplace too, to a sort of broader, you know, certainly post Me Too. And I understand that post Me Too was at a cultural moment that had had value and relevance, you know, when it began.
00:06:07
Speaker
But then it became like a broader attack that the the word male in itself was bad and and and this presumption of privilege on behalf of all men That was where I think they started to lose people because you know da if you're a working clock I would rather you know in terms of privilege I would rather be a middle-class woman than a working-class male your life will be more comfortable. You'll have more opportunity So straight away you can draw those lines which kind of shatter that that
Cultural Shifts in Male Perspectives
00:06:30
Speaker
illusion. So when you have, you know, and there's a period in the media, you know, whether over here, whether you're on BBC Radio 5 live or any of these discussion programs, certain lines were trotted out with with without challenge, yeah you know, your argument was sometimes denigrated by the fact you were male, were you your male?
00:06:47
Speaker
you go go we really lost some share price here what's that long ago where we retire to smoking rooms to make decisions and how the fact that i've got a penis is being used as ah as a reason why should be talking so you always does this as you say that the the project of of and sort of ah sort of chiseling away at the rough edges of masculinity was a was a fair and noble one but society always overcorrects and then there will be a smaller group of people in there that realize actually it becomes about power so if you can take power from one person you might have more for yourself and and that was where i felt some of the debate had ended up yeah you you mentioned then how that's played out in media how how have you seen it play out more specifically in comedy
00:07:29
Speaker
but in comedy so Comedy is predominantly it was predominantly male. you know When I did the circuit as such, as as it was then in the noughties, most lineups most lus didn't have a female comic on. Now, you can always argue about the reasons why that was. I mean, obviously, when it's an all-male environment, it was less attractive for women to come into. There were less women that wanted to do comedy at that time. yeah There still are. Still are way less women that start comedy. Way less. And so it was fair to to say, can we improve
Diversity and Storytelling in Comedy
00:07:56
Speaker
this? You know, and and we did improve this in terms of television. I mean, but I saw an old Mock the Week the other day from 2005, and it was literally seven white blokes between the ages of 40 and 50. Right. So you go, OK, right. fit There probably what there was a case for tweaking the formula a little bit just to get different voices in. But so but yeah, in comedy, there has been a ah gradual change over time. And I think that
00:08:21
Speaker
you know there were people that wanted quotas at at that time but you know comedy is not something you can you can't just decide we want loads more female comics and then there suddenly be loads more female comics because the the apprenticeship for comedy is longer than anything else longer than trying to be a doctor learn longer than trying to be a fucking jedi probably so So the desire to have diversity, like with everything in comedy, the desire to have it is one thing. Making sure that when you give people opportunities that their skill set has evolved enough that they're they're ready to to deliver, that's a completely different thing.
00:08:54
Speaker
Well, it's ironic that you are you bring up Jedi's because from what I've seen of the latest Star Wars, there are certainly a lot of female lesbian Jedi's. I think they've well and truly rectified the art, the imbalance there. Yeah, well, so the acolyte. I mean, it's interesting because I obviously on a casting level, it's the most diverse casting that Disney have ever done. And on a message level, there's certainly the third episode where I was like, OK, yes, we we get it. Or what is the subtle message that you're trying to push here? Is that, well, oh, the galaxy doesn't like women like us. What what could that possibly refer to? Having said that, I always try to just shoot from the hip and say, and this would make me unpopular, episode five was a belter. I don't know how the hell I stuck with it to episode five.
00:09:36
Speaker
but some of the best lightsaber duels i've ever seen like literally ever in the star wars universe so if we want to go blokey and mail on it ah look all that stuff in films you go if you if you're really passionate about diversity and what would be called in inverted commas won't message you just make sure the story is really good then that would be my approach go if i want to earn the right to kind of preach a little bit It's like comedy. You have to write a really good joke. And you know, with the Star Wars series, you've got to write an absolutely kick-ass series. And the problem with the acolyte is that the moment you look at the direction, the acting, some of the plot holes, then there's space for people to go hang about. You know, ah there there doesn't seem to be many blokes in this.
00:10:17
Speaker
you know they they do so try They do seem to be trying to push a worldview. So, so you know i'm I'm one of those people, like I noticed that stuff, but I'm not, you know i'm not tear you know I didn't lose my shit because they made a film about female Ghostbusters. I was annoyed because the film wasn't good. And and you and when when it's not good, you sort of then refer back to their purpose. And if the purpose is dominated by saying, let's have a female Ghostbusters or let's have more women on panel shows, That's not, you know, the first priority should be entertain, make people laugh, and then the other stuff can come after that. Yeah,
Understanding 'Bloke' Culture
00:10:52
Speaker
I agree. And I think it also greats with people when those shows come out, see the bad reviews, or not the bad reviews, normally the reviews are good, see the low audience numbers, and then basically get told, well, the reason that this wasn't successful was because people are racist, or because people are sexist, as opposed to, well, they just weren't particularly entertained.
00:11:14
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I don't know how many people will stick with the Acolyte till episode five. Yeah, there there is that point. I mean, it works on both sides as well. Episode five was definitely a good episode. It really was good to watch. But then there's also people on the right or the culturally conservative right that have dug in so far that they can't let themselves admit that it was a good lightsaber. like know yeah so this is always and my My comedy always works on the basis and the same reason I've got a podcast called What Most People Think is that on the the average and the norms and I come from a ah ah conviction that most people are decent, most people are are all right you know and and and they're not unreasonable and you know we're coming up on an and election here and I'm sure that if like a party like Reform
00:11:54
Speaker
get thirty percent of the vote here unlikely but they might get high twenties you know people will go go through the same process we went for after brexit they're all racist they're all sexist they don't care and you know if you start from the point that the vast majority of people are reasonable and decent then that's a good starting point to understand why something has or hasn't worked but yeah if you want to take cover and just go the reason we got thirteen percent on rotten tomatoes is because everyone's racist or sexist they then you're never really gonna learn Yeah. And I think that's why why this book was such a pleasure to read because it does actually see the innate goodness in some of the habits and foibles of the bloke. And I do note that the bloke is a, at least in part, distinct phenomena from male. So let's get the terminology out of the way. How do you define a bloke?
Gender Roles and Housework
00:12:38
Speaker
What's the mail is the species and bloke is the breed so ah there there's other breeds there's geezer you know geezers a little bit different geezers will tend to walk in doing that pigeon head thing and i know that i know australia's got plenty of those the pigeon i think that uh that spans uh the hemispheres uh there's the chap you know there's uh the gentleman but the but the bloke is your rank and file I mean, it probably is more noticeable in middle age, but I think it can occur before that. And I i dare say that there will be women who have blokes tendencies or women who want to identify as blokes. But I would say broadly speaking, it it will ah be for males, you know, getting in and around middle age that just realize that
00:13:19
Speaker
their main job in life is to be dependable calm and and and loving partners you know i fathers and and and friends they might not be they might not remember like birthdays or they might remember the names of all their kids you know but if anyone needs running up to an airport or anyone needs help moving house or something dropping off at a recycling center. You know, yeah you're in your element. I think we just stopped acknowledging the good things that blokes do, you know, like why, you know, what the the things that husbands provide, that that fathers provide. So so the book suddenly, I mean, it is a lighthearted book, as I'm sure you appreciate, but, you know, it landed in a time when the debate, I think, was starting to turn here. I don't know how he it or was in Australia, but I think people are just getting a bit tired of bloke bashing and also a lot of women are going, hang on. like I've got a husband I love, you know, an uncle, I've got a son who's, you know, emerging into the world at a difficult time for males. Actually, maybe it's time for this overcorrection to start moving back, you know, towards a more sensible sensible position. Yeah, I think that is happening across the West. And I felt that as well, not just in the the
00:14:24
Speaker
sex and gender area, but also in race and all the other culture wars stuff. One of the joys of the book is after that quick outline of terminology, you then go into just the different snippets of our lives and how some of these little foibles can highlight maybe deeper truths. So I picked out my favorites. You start with housework. Let's start there.
Acknowledging Gender Differences
00:14:44
Speaker
British men apparently do half the amount of housework compared to their female counterparts. Why? Well, I mean, on one level, it'd be that mathematically, women are still more likely to have kids, more likely to take time out of the workplace to have kids. So that it was skewed because of that. Then it was skewed because ah we just don't do as much. And and it'll also be different priorities. So it was interesting here at Glastonbury, so Paloma Faith, who's gone through and a breakup, which she's spoken about a lot, the singer Paloma Faith was on stage at Glastonbury. And she was sort of, a nagging is an old fashioned word, but she sort of nagged all the men in the audience. And it was almost like she was speaking to one man, like her ex maybe. And she was saying, look, if a woman does something every day, it's because it just needs doing all right. So just do it. And I thought, my God, it's one of those things that, you know, the classic, if a bloke said it, it's really toxic then, it's controlling. Maybe we should send some police rounds, social services, has he got anyone in the cellar? But the point is, you cannot, this is the point about a relationship that is a negotiation.
00:15:43
Speaker
How clean do things need to be? Each partner will have a different view of that. you know How many days will I wear a pair of jeans on? Answer till they get itchy. My wife doesn't understand that. Equally, you know one thing you learn being in a relationship with a woman for a while, they do not bathe as often as us. right Most blokes will shower or bath once a day. Well, because of the hair thing, You learn, you go, oh shit, like some of them go three or four days. I mean, they don't, they just generally don't smell as much as is another issue. So that's the beauty of a relationship is finding that common ground, you know, or that compromise point. The point I'm making in the book about housework is that there is certainly for my generation, a belief that if we do do the odd bit of housework, we should be celebrated for it and be given medals. Now this is a controversial idea, but I've had a lot of women that have ah contacted me since that have sent me photos of them given their, I basically suggest that women should keep little plastic medals handy.
00:16:34
Speaker
So you reward him like a dog, you know, when you go out, you take treats out and you just get him used to it because we like feeling like heroes. We like being celebrated for for for for minor things. And the point is, they you know, a lot of women might say, well, I shouldn't have to reward him. He should just want to load the the dishwasher. All right. He's never going to want to. All right. That's not going to happen. So you need another plan. Yeah, that's much more pragmatic. And what flows through that answer, but also the book more generally is something that would have been a truism even 20 years ago, and that is men and women are
Comedy and Cultural Movements
00:17:08
Speaker
different. yeah Now, that comment has almost a whiff of controversy about it in some quarters. How do you reflect on this quite modern phenomena of just ignoring the innate differences between men and women?
00:17:24
Speaker
Well, ah so in comedy, in the late noughties, the comedy industry and the early 2010s decided that talking about the difference between men and women is just passé, it's boring, you know ah so gender is a construct. you know I've always thought gender is a consequence of biology, right? So there's differences in our anatomy and our priorities that that manifest in in certain characteristics that people call gender. But I think to me, sex has always been the driving force. That's the most important thing. So it's a kind of form of small c conservatism to just acknowledge those differences. the The, as you say, the pragmatism of well, how is it really? How is it for most people? You know, if I appear on a BBC, I was actually on a BBC radio show, and I was, a I was talking about mechanics, and I referred to the mechanic as a bloke. And the woman said, Well, you know, you know, a lot of I know a lot of amazing female mechanics and there' something about the way she said it, I was like,
00:18:13
Speaker
Do you? I mean, like, I don't doubt that that there are female amazing female mechanics that exist. But what you just said is I know lots of amazing female and I'm going to doubt that you know lots. So but it's almost like maths. It's like, at what point can you talk to the generalities really? And in my comedy, you know, I talk about politics, but I've always my favorite subject always is about relationships, men and women, you know, and I'm always in the market for new observations in that area. Not like the old, you know, just sitting there going, oh, we're in shopping, Lance. They love shopping. They love shoes. And by the way, they do a lot of them do like that. But.
00:18:47
Speaker
you know just just trying to think what those modern changes in our behavior and one of the ones i'm talking about the moment is the fact that we're all watching clips right watching reels these funny little clips of the stuff i watch is just way darker than hers so she'll send me and this is nothing women did i'll say i'll just send you a clip did you watch that clip you're like no i've got my own fucking clips do you know what i mean like i'm not you know if there's one thing we're not sure of in 2024 it's like short funny clips to watch ah but I can't send her like mine of just a punch up in like a
Right-Wing Comedy Challenges
00:19:15
Speaker
car park. I can't say, oh, this is really good. This guy gets, i he gets flattened like about four times, but still gets up. but so So you speak because I am a very middle of the road person and it sort of helps me comedically because if I experience something or think something, I can talk about with a reasonable degree of confidence that that will be a broad experience. I sometimes think people say it I'll be in a
00:19:34
Speaker
small c conservative or right wing comic people say it's harder i actually think it's sometimes harder to be a left-wing comic because the comedy industry will have whatever the sort of new extremes are whether they're vegans you know or whether it's non-binary or you know ADHD or all these things comedy will always have way more of those right way more and we over represent as an industry. But then the problem is, is like if if observational humour is the most successful form of humour, sometimes the challenge can be unpacking that for people. So if you've cultivated your own crowd and you go, guys, you know, it's like when you're trying to get vegan cheese, but it's a bit powdery and you get people go, fucking no, I don't i don't know what that is. But if you're me who likes football, cricket, beer, curry, you know, watching clips of people getting hit in the nuts with a cricket ball, you know, it's just a bit the route to
00:20:21
Speaker
an observation potentially landing is is is a bit easier. you know and I think another thing about left-wing comics as well is that the presumption is is that you put yourself on a higher social, moral moral pedestal. right That's what it feels like. You're sort of saying that you have a ah you've come up with a political philosophy that would be better for mankind. But that's also a harder position to be funnier from. Whereas, you know, because you're, it's the tall poppy thing, right? Whereas if you're a right-wing comic, a lot of the presumption is that you're a bit of a git, or you're a bit selfish, or a bit individualistic, or you punch down. It's way easier to over-perform those expectations, let me tell you. yeah Way easier to come in slightly above the average of whether people thinking that you're a selfish shitbag, you know?
Boundaries in Comedy
00:21:01
Speaker
so So, I think there was a period at the end of the 2010s where being a left-wing comic was easier, you know, because of the media landscape. I think that's not true now. I think it's there's more challenges.
00:21:12
Speaker
You can look at the trends by saying who netflix are promoting for example and that twenty twenty year period. Memory hannah gadsby was all the rage for better or for worse and now you look at someone like a shane gillis who's almost like the anti hannah gadsby and is the response to that and that seems to be. I think it's great that they all exist i think that they should be you know the kind of now i call it narrative comedy the kind of stuff that hannah gadsby does is kind of stuff you see more at the edinburgh fringe. But it does not surprise me at all that if you look at the top performing stand-up specials, it's gonna be Ricky Gervais, it's gonna be Dave Chappelle, you know, it's gonna be ah Shane Gillis. Shane Gillis is almost a perfect example. He's the most middle-of-the-road bloke. I mean, he's got an amazing mind. A bit like Louis CK once upon a time. Just looks like your normal bloke that surprises you with these but these takes. You know, like, him but that those clips of him just saying how funny Trump was.
00:22:05
Speaker
That was there to be hit by any comic, but in a way only Shane Gillis could do it. Because because he looks, that's what people were saying in life, right? On WhatsApp groups, you're going, look, whatever you think about Trump, personally, I think the guy's a bit of a dick. But he always made me laugh. He was always entertaining. and and it's just and And that's the thing that comedy can do, is it can acknowledge those corners of your psyche that other people are scared of acknowledging in certain situations. Do you think that there should be topics that you shouldn't joke about? Well, I'd know, but I do think that the when you get into sensitive areas that are obviously serious for groups of people, you've got ah the the threshold for it being funny, it goes up, right? That's just, that's the same as if you was in a social situation and you was to tell a joke about World War II, right? You know, and there was somebody there whose family had been in a concentration camp. You go with this joke, better be fucking funny, you know? So that that's what I think. I think there are no, like,
00:23:00
Speaker
Look, if you talk about a difference between men and women, there's not massive sensitivities in that area. If you talk about trans stuff, if you talk about slavery or something like that, obviously the jeopardy level goes up. So I believe personally that you it's you it's just being a good professional to make sure that the joke is good.
Men's Growing Interest in History
00:23:16
Speaker
Although having said that, my first appearance on Live at the Apollo, one of the jokes depended on me talking about my wife packing too many shoes to go to Egypt. And I go like i've got a clap back for that. because i was in plan that women like shoes and they would all write all women like shoes today and i like the stats that back this up but don not maybe not all but quite a lot but and then and then it got you know then there was women go well i like shoes so what you saying and i'm not it was kind of odd at the end of the twenty ten s and and
00:23:45
Speaker
that that summer of 2020. Twitter had pulled the debate so far left and towards progressivism. it was so It was dishonest in the way that it was representing people. And I actually think it did media and culture a disservice because the the culture sort of pivoted towards that. And you're still seeing films, scripts and television shows coming through now that were commissioned and conceived in that time. But they thought, well, this is what everyone thinks. I mean, like people debate the merits of Musk owning Twitter. I think he's done one thing. It's definitely a fairer representation of the two sides. You're still getting extremes, but I think it's it's it's it's neutralized the bias to a degree.
00:24:26
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I'll use that little nod to World War II before to move on to your observations on blokehood and history. Why do blokes almost inevitably become more interested in history as they get older with World War II and Rome probably being the two the two standards? I suppose the thing is, you start to realise all the films that you watch. By the way, Rome is not as much of a thing in Britain. I know that there was that meme of, like, how often do you think about the Roman Empire? That's not so much a thing here. Here, it's all World War II, like, because it's your granddads. And I know that obviously people, you know, in Australia and New Zealand served as well, but I guess because you now also had to shut the curtains during the blitz and and stuff like that. For my generation, it's still woven in. And then you kind of realise that a lot of the films and the narratives that you've loved growing up were, a lot of it was drawn on
00:25:13
Speaker
the story of, you know, the Second World War, you know, the Star Wars and, you know, the the Empire and the how Palpatine claimed, I mean, everything, everything for me is a Star Wars or cricket metaphor. So you sort of go, maybe cut out the middleman and just go straight to the story,
British Resilience and Identity
00:25:28
Speaker
really. As you get older, I just love stories of bravery as well. And and and one of the things that the left sometimes get wrong about conservatives or what they call gamans over his, they think that we're sitting here dreaming of days of the Empire, you know, we want to go back to the Empire. And that was why we voted for Brexit and all this but But the truth is is that the defining narrative and I think I say this in the book for British males He's he's actually Dunkirk really and the blitz, you know, there's two things Dunkirk a narrow escape, right? Actually running in the other direction But just getting out in the nick of time to live to fight another day and the blitz is which was this gritty endurance of ah of a horrible thing You know where where the spirit didn't bend or break. It's not it's not world domination.
00:26:09
Speaker
ah is I've never genuinely never met even the most right wing and even like genuine racist I've met. I've never ever heard them say God I would love it if we were still running India, you know, it's just not a sentiment but they you for a while again because of perhaps the way the social media skews this became this narrative, you know, there was another narrative in this country as well was that when Brexit happened was that the 2012 Olympics was the absolute high watermark for culture in this country, right? They forget it happened in London, and it was a much bigger deal to people in London. They sort of thought that the country looked at that and went, no, we hate multiculturalism. We hate all of this. And in four years, we're going to pay you back for enjoying the Olympics. It's fuckal. Brexit and the 2012 Olympics have nothing to do with each other. But there is a strange, almost orientalization in this country of what that Olympic
00:27:01
Speaker
those Olympics in London mean. It's really weird. There's this sort of there's this sort of strand of centrism where they believe that that was the last time that Britain was good. It's almost like their version of you know the empire. That was when it was good. It's funny because the exact same thinking I think happened with the Sydney Olympics in 2000, 12 years earlier. There's something about that. I think it's this weird nostalgia thing. But I want to to pick up on that thought around the Blitz and and how we look back on war history. When I, as an Australian, look at the British national character, I think of that character during the Blitz. I think of that stiff upper lip, quiet endurance and you know determination in the face of of adversity.
00:27:43
Speaker
Do you think when you actually look at the Britain of today, that strand still runs through the British character? ah Look, I don't know if it runs through a lot of the West any anymore. I think, you know, people said that the way that we handled Covid exhibited that. I'm not sure it did. We would just beg in to be locked up, really, a lot of people. I mean, it was a real eye opener for me. of how how people really think. you know There was there's still, there was 20% of people that felt that there should be a 10pm curfew, full stop, right? I think there's still a few that think that. There was a good 10% that thought the nightclubs should have remained shut forever. I mean, you just, you didn't realize how sort of little
00:28:23
Speaker
people that want other, how few liberties people want other people to have. So if you're a person that doesn't go out much, feels socially anxious, you know, be scared by crowds and stuff, like it was that weird moment where the the anxious people were calm and the sociable people were anxious. So having seen that, yeah, I do ah do wonder if we, I mean, the sense of humor is still there and that gives me hope. You know, British people are never happier than when everything is crap. So like a good example is Euro 2024. England and Scotland being massively disappointing, but it's the closest we've been as two nations in years. We're getting on great because we've we've we both feel let down. and There was an element of that in Brexit. i mean the far People forget the there was you know the real hardcore leavers and remainers going at it every day, but a lot of people just thought it was just sort of hilarious how
00:29:13
Speaker
how fucked up everything got during that time. you know and But the did the atmosphere in this country now, I don't know. I think things are chilling out. I'm not you know one of those people on the conservative side that's saying everything's going to hell in a hand
Society's Historical Awareness
00:29:25
Speaker
basket. I think culturally, I think we're in a better place. And I think that some of that is because people have just been reminded what sells, you know, some of it is because, you know, conservative commentators have done the brave hard work of digging in, you know, during the difficult years. So even though we might have a Labour government here, I think culturally, we might be moving into a more nuanced, representative time. But I might be wrong, you might speak to me in a year, and you find out that Starm Run veils all these plans for aggressive targets, you know, God knows what else and, you know, pulling down statues and monuments. So fingers crossed that won't happen.
00:29:56
Speaker
How do you think about the statues and monuments stuff? What's your when you see that kind of stuff taking place? And again, I think it was out at its Zenith around 2020, but still still happening. How do you reflect on on that instinct among some people to tear down as opposed to build new history? Yeah, I just always always surprised that that was their priority. If you think of it, it's the same with like, you know, you look at the numbers of modern slavery, you always think, well, there's stuff right now if you want, if you that's what you're motivated by, there's stuff right now that you could be looking at. And and and it was, it was infantile really with the statue thing. It was like, but this has always been
00:30:32
Speaker
an issue and yes, we could have a discussion about whether we need more context for certain people or to update the biographies, but to just say, well, this makes me angry. I'm going to throw it in the sea. you know it's You're not dealing with your past then. It's like, it's a I mean, a therapist, if you sat down with a counselor. I said, well, there's this thing that really makes me unhappy, so I'm going to throw it in the sea. You go, hmm, let's delve a bit deeper into that. Or should we understand why it makes you unhappy? Or what's the context to that? I mean, literally, intelligence is context, right? It's all about context. So the period where, you know, particularly with actors, films, you know trigger warnings on things that were clearly from a different era, it felt stupid. It was embarrassing. It was intellectually barren.
00:31:15
Speaker
to be saying, well, here's a black and white cowboy film, we're going to put a trigger warning at the beginning saying that attitudes might have been different. So what a film in the 1950s made about the 1880s might have had different attitudes. I think most people would factor that in genuinely. You know, if you see some cowboy there shaking a woman going, God damn it, you hysterical woman. I don't think anyone then thinks, oh, yeah, I'll go to my local weather spoons. And if there's a woman who seems emotional, I'll try that. approach. No one's doing that. So I think one, it was stupid. There was a lot of very stupid things happening, stupid suggestions. But also, as ever, with kind of aspects of the liberal bubble, that a very dim view of people, you know, what they're essentially saying is,
00:31:53
Speaker
The vast majority of people cannot watch this without immediately going out and saying something racist or, or you know, attacking someone. So again, it comes back to that that faith, you know, is is that, you know, the old fashioned sort of conservatism, which is just ah generally I think that people are fairly smart and by and large left to their own devices. They'll they'll do good things.
Emotional Expression in Men
00:32:13
Speaker
Let me run off your therapist analogy. The old Stereotype of blokes is that they hold all their emotions in the more modern man is meant to be more emotionally sensitive in some respects that's a good thing perhaps in other respects is this again is that over correction you reflect on the way that men handle their emotions and potentially ah that's changed overtime.
00:32:38
Speaker
What's interesting with there's an episode of a series i'll just finish recording called jeff norkotz working men's club and it'll be available on bbc sounds you know and but this is another example bbc going in the right direction a show called working men's club you know it's i don't know you know 10 years ago whether that would have been in the mix but we spoke about that many working men actually working at the bbc but nonetheless but it's definitely it's it's definitely less working men's clubs these days but um but yeah one that we spoke about in one of the shows and it's coming out on july the 19th but i think it was i made it ah There was a line about, you know, that line between sort of dealing with your feelings and excavating every thought and feeling you've ah you ever had. It may be that as males, we are predisposed to just holding back a little bit more. So trying to force somebody that instinctively doesn't doesn't have the capacity to do that.
00:33:26
Speaker
That might not be healthy either. So it's about a small evolution, really. it's just People want to revolutionize men. right They ever want to fix men and say, this is how we stop men being toxic right and on the one hand, or you've got the manosphere going. This is how you get abs in a Lamborghini and become a new alpha. And you go, look, most blokes just want to be a bit healthier and a bit happier. Right? So there's this small evolution towards that, which might be not bottling everything, up you know, or considering if you can't do counseling, consider journaling, you know, simple things that the average everyday blokes could do.
Beer and Socializing Among British Blokes
00:33:59
Speaker
And, you know, there was that part of me that slightly, you know, thinks that my granddad coming back from the war and just not talking about it. I'm like, that's a real man, you know, heroic. I mean, he did become a massive alcoholic, but, you know, you
00:34:10
Speaker
Maybe that's more fun than talking about it, I don't know. but So again, I find myself caught between these two worlds of of understanding the value of things like counselling and talking therapies, but also knowing that that stoicism does have a place. it's like The point is, is like you can push your feelings down to get through a difficult time. you've got to remember where you put them because at some point when that difficult time passes you might have to deal with them then you might be like oh right where the fuck are these feelings and you know so that's that again is the sort of nuanced space that I tend to operate in. Let's uh take your grandfather's alcoholism as an opportunity to talk about beers. My favorite line in
00:34:46
Speaker
The book was fancy a pint. For British blokes, this constitutes one of the greatest sentences in the English language. The to be or not to be of blokey. What's at the heart of the love affair between blokes and beers? I mean, I don't know. I think there's a lot really. Fancy point is one, we're going to spend social time together, but it's centered around an activity. The activity is fun as well. It's not like coffee. Coffee is not fun. No one can tell me coffee is fun. It can be pleasant. It can be stimulating. It's not fun. And so we're going to be in a pub and that pub might have sport, you know, on. It might have a fruit machine. You know, it's going to be an environment where there are distractions, men like activities, right? Just facing each other one to one.
00:35:28
Speaker
It makes me even makes me feel tense. I've gone with friends for coffee. I just make me feel anxious. And then you have something that naturally makes you feel more anxious. I think beer as well, it's like you got to work for the drunkenness you get from beer. there's so yeah Cocktails got no respect for cocktails. Wine's too easy to drink. Apparel, spritz, all this stuff is like, yeah you're not working for it. You're saying it's got to taste nice. Women do tend towards sweeter drinks. And I think that a beer, like not too strong a beer, is it imposes certain controls. like It's too gassy for you to just neck pints regularly. So there's ah it's sort of like an egg timer in a way Now some guys are absolutely monsters, but most blokes would have to pace themselves It's like a it's like an innings and then when you end up beer drunk I think it's the best kind of drunkenness really because you've had to work for that You know, I mean, it's not like just just sort of neck in three sex on the beaches in a row or espresso martinis and all this and nonsense I think that I think that it's a it sort of epitomizes
Youth Drinking Habits and Social Media
00:36:26
Speaker
bloke read away you know there's a there's a modesty in it and also you know five percent and above craft beers or there's anything that's with notes of toffee i like middle of the road lager something that was designed to be drunk a lot you know something that something is literally mainstream The Game of Thrones kind of style where you're just drinking on it throughout the day or the Churchill kind of thing. Kids are, from what I've seen in the stats, they're drinking less, shagging less. They're seeing friends less. All of this stuff. Why?
00:37:00
Speaker
Well, I think social media is ah is a bribe and a trick, isn't it it? It tricks you into thinking that you've had something that you haven't. So you've had contacts or you've had social time with people. It's not the same. I mean, like if you look at the stats on like what's what's the most fulfilling for people in terms of contact, obviously it's it's being with a person and talking to them. But like being on the phone to somebody is exponentially more rewarding than texting somebody. Right. So essentially social media, a lot of it is like texting, you know, whether it's to a broad audience or otherwise, but people kid themselves into thinking that that that is a ah substitute. You know, I think for a lot of young males as well, they've been exposed to way more porn at a younger age. So it's wired them slightly differently. There's, I know that there's more instances of erectile dysfunction in younger men. I'm not surprised. we know I mean, it was the interesting thing in this country. We had like the lads mags in the late noughties, right? We had zoo nuts and all that sort of stuff. and
00:37:53
Speaker
There was a real moral panic about that, real moral panic. And, um you know, you have the sun page three, and eventually the campaign's got rid of them. They got rid of them. And now all we've got is hardcore pornography that's free forever, all day long, right? Go, well, we dealt with that. like You know, lads, it's sometimes it's better than the devil. You know, people I don't think you're ever going to get rid of. you know men's desire you know to look at the female form. And actually, if you look back to the lads mags now, there's almost a so compared to some of the stuff you see on the internet, there's almost an innocence about it. They're just lovely looking women, you know topless women. It didn't go any further than that. Now you look at the way that these clips online are titled, and you know it's it's like ah an arms race to have the most extreme content.
00:38:34
Speaker
I don't think that's worked either. you can't It's like whack-a-mole with the male male psyche. you know very Men are very visual sexually. so If you just whack it over the head in one place, I mean, that was probably not a good choice of cosiology, but it's going to pop up somewhere else. so i think you know and and Socially, they do have more anxieties. They're more anxious generally, partly because they're worried about the future. and That's certainly something my generation is culpable for, one for the management of the economy and forward planning, but also through various fears about the environment. you know I'm not saying that there aren't concerns there, but the level to which those have been you know venerated, like it's given them a sense that there's there's not really a few if there is a future, it's not going to be a fun one. So I think as ever, like this is a very conservative attitude, is for the adults
00:39:21
Speaker
to make it better, you know, to like, literally, you don't get a phone until you're a certain age, maybe a teenager, you know, to make the difficult decisions.
Linking Teaching and Comedy
00:39:28
Speaker
This is probably my most conservative point of view is on parenting. It's like, discipline, like strict reinforcement, all that stuff. I mean, people might be surprised given how I sound, but when I was a teacher, I was i was really, you know, I wore a sharp suit. was really you know read the right act because that's just what they need and people remember people saying well you know teenagers they're themselves they've got that no they're impressionable okay and you've got to put the fear of God into them because that's the most constructive thing for them
00:39:58
Speaker
I actually didn't know that you were a teacher. It's interesting because obviously Francis Foster, a friend of yours, been on the show, was a teacher as well. come together I think ah Greg Davies, who was a teacher as well. He was Romesh. Romesh was a teacher too, yeah. There's obviously some sort of a connection. What is what is that connection between comedy and teaching? I think the answer might be boring. I think it's maths. There's just a lot of teachers full stop. So, you know, there's like several hundred thousand teachers in the UK. There's probably some kind of Venn diagram between, um you know, speak in front of people, win over a room of people, comedies. So there's definitely a skill set thing, but it is just numbers. And and similarly, because obviously NHS is massive here, there's quite a lot of people that were in, you know, were doctors too as well. Harry Hill, Simon Brogkin, Paul Sinner, you know, there's there's a lot of ah
00:40:48
Speaker
doctors as as
Cricket's Cultural Impact
00:40:49
Speaker
well. But yeah, there's definitely a thing where I'll throw out one there in that you're both dealing with tough audiences in that. Well, especially when you do supply teaching, I mean, I did supply teaching in Luton. So if once you can do that, you know, it's very it' dis similar principle of first five minutes, you have to establish yourself because if they don't respect you, then it's going to be a long hour. It's the same with comedy. If you're doing a 20 minute set, if you see a guy go out and not get a proper laugh in the first three minutes, the it's like the turning that around is like Ben Stokes ahead in the sorry for bringing that up. but
00:41:18
Speaker
but i was actually I was actually there on that day, so I remember it well. It must have been like a waking nightmare. Talk me through it in excruciating detail. so We went to a Wetherspoons before the start of the play, me and five Aussie guys, and we were tanked by the time we got in. and If you remember, I think it was about a 98% likelihood that Australia were going to win That was part of the day. And if we won that game, we retained the Ashes. So a million five Aussie blokes come into the stadium, just being typical boorish Australians. We've retained the Ashes, we've retained the Ashes. We were screaming and yelling and all the kind of English, 10,000 English fans around us in the stands, took it with good humour throughout the day. But I will never forget as we then hit the winning runs, 10,000 English blokes in unison, turning around to us going,
00:42:05
Speaker
you You don't need a second anymore kind of thing. we ah we yeah We had to go down. I remember shaking everyone's hand at the side of the aisle as we we walked down the stairs, and then we absolutely blitzed it out of the stadium. Well, if it makes you feel any better, I had the reverse. I was at the last day at Edgebreston last summer. So England were fancied going into the day and Pat Cummings, you know, maybe with his zen light approach to cricket, got Australian over the line. and And that, yeah, we really felt like we were in the box. It wasn't quite to the degree of Ben Stokes at Henley, but we really, I remember there was one wicket where everyone was looking around like, yeah, we broke the back of this now. And that with cricket, you know, it's not as intense as football, but that feeling when it's slipping away is just awful. It is like an anxiety dream.
00:42:51
Speaker
Well, it's interesting. I remember watching a documentary of that 2005 Ashes series, which is one which I'm very happy to bring up. You're probably less happy to talk about it. But I remember Flintoff talking about cricket and he said it's a very unusual sport test cricket because unlike most other sports, if you're going to lose the game, it doesn't just happen and then you've lost. You can see it slowly slipping away. You know that it's coming and it's this slow motion car crash that you can see from a long way away. I've got a question on this and that is, what do you think the relative decline of test cricket and the rise of 2020 says about the modern bloke?
00:43:28
Speaker
Well, I mean, a lot of it has been led from India. you know I mean, 2020 is popular around the world, but the big change, you know when India won the the limited overs World Cup, that created a big change. Then when they won the T20, and it's the biggest market. And apparently, culturally, there is this thing called Tamasha, which is the idea of the drama, the color, you know like an explosion of something happening very quickly. to So it's a sort of main line into the indian psyche and and but then that that's rolled out at the same time as as as as short gratification you know shorter clips and stuff but i also would counter that we're also looking at a time when films are really long you know like really big films free three and a half hour films wolf of wall street big epics like that
00:44:09
Speaker
um We're also looking at people binging box sets that quite often, you know, so five series of of ten episodes, you know, 50 hours of their lives. So I think that it's not beyond, you know, conception that people seem to have either really short or really long attention span. So I think cricket is still culturally ah relevant. I just think football has got more dominant throughout my lifetime. particularly like the The level of fame of the most famous footballers is is something that just wasn't a thing when I was young. you know when they show When they show like 1984 European championships, Michel Platini, he wasn't famous like Mbappe is now. He wasn't wealthy like Mbappe is now. And it's the same like you know my son is playing football and he's playing cricket, but football dominates. So instead of the football season finishing here,
00:44:57
Speaker
at like, you know, what should finish really in May. Then there's five-a-side tournaments, then teams train on, and then the cricket club, you know, are struggling to get teams out. They can't play games. So football's now encroaching culturally, and I think it's a shame because I genuinely think cricket is a force for good. I say this to my son, but I have to be careful because the more he thinks I'm trying to take him away from football, the the more i could I could tear it. But he did play at the weekend, he took a court and bowled. And um even though I was umpire, I was celebrating. It probably isn't the most impartial thing, but I do worry, I do worry, you know, as as a small, as a conservative kind of person, I want things that I think are good to stay around. But ah you can't, it's a really hard thing, especially with someone his age, even if I took Seb to a 2020 game, he would get bored during that at some point.
00:45:45
Speaker
So, at what age people can pivot towards test cricket? I don't know. But I think what they really have to lean into from a marketing point of view is the narrative, the story. Like, cricket is a box set. Binge the box set. You know what I mean? Stay there for the payoffs. Stay there for the the big stories, the big reveals, all all that sort of stuff. Because, you know, well without test cricket, I was going to say it's a world not not worth living in, but that sounds like a genuine suicide threat. But it It wouldn't be. ah ah ah yeah ah Whenever there's a test match on Involve in England, I'm
Generational Changes in Fatherhood
00:46:16
Speaker
happier. Apart from when they're getting trounced, but I'm genuinely, I wake up happy. It's like a little Christmas day every time. Yeah. I'm much the same. You mentioned your son and it's a good opportunity just to turn to fatherhood and how maybe attitudes to towards fatherhood have changed or, and to what extent they've said the same. How do you reflect on fatherhood and perhaps as your study of the British bloke, what have you, how has it changed the way that you, or, or evolve the way you think about it?
00:46:41
Speaker
Well, I'd wonder if I'm actually, um and again, this is a contrast with the way that I teach. I'm a very fluffy, kind of emotional, soppy, sensitive parent. I think I said in the book that, you know the show Modern Family? I think a lot of blokes, when you watch that, you want to be Jay. Not least because his wife is Gloria. But you want to be Jay because you're like, yeah, Jay is the old fashioned patriarch. He'll have a little sip of whiskey. You know, he won't be too emotionally incontinent. But really, I'm a Phil. I'm a Phil Dunphy because, ah you know, the first day at school, the first day at ah nursery, you know, I was the emotional one and my wife was saying, get in the car. You're going to, you know, you're going to confuse him because
00:47:16
Speaker
I am quite, you know, a sensitive person, despite appearances. But in terms of what I display to him, you know, I'm conscious of what he needs me to be, you know, he needs me. He likes, you know, I've been going to gym more recently, he likes it that I'm physically stronger. I mean, he's literally the most basic who's my protector. He's got slightly more muscles than he did. I like that. And it was weird that my wife probably disciplined him more when he was younger and I never told him off loads. But if he did something wrong, he'd be saying to her, don't tell daddy, please don't tell daddy. Like I was like, will you make me out to be some sort of fucking 1950s dad, wait till your father gets home? But he needed me to exist in that space, like of the disciplinarian or the slight authoritarian.
00:47:58
Speaker
I think if anything, you know, I try to actually be more of, um I want to be more of the dad that he wants me to be rather than the guy that's always going in for hugs. You know, my, I definitely didn't, my generation is definitely guilty of this is we didn't get enough hugs off our dads, but we've probably hugged our own sons far too much.
Conclusion and Book Promotion
00:48:14
Speaker
That's a great line for us to ponder and end on. and As is so much in this book, Jeff, it is good fun to read. and It's just a really kind of fun way to spend an afternoon, but there are some eternal truths in there, which perhaps we may have forgotten. It's a really special book.
00:48:30
Speaker
Link is in the show notes. There's also a link to your podcast, which is also great, as well as your Edinburgh dates, which are coming up, entering into the the hornet's nest there. So all the best. Well, it's the last chance to see basic bloke, but it's also, I started talking about my conservative politics in 2013. So it'd be my first show at the Edinburgh Fringe under a Labour government. I cannot wait. to rip into him. You idiots. what have you If anything, I kind of hope that the pound crashes just so I can say all the same stuff that they said when Brexit happens. So yeah, if you're around, if you or if you just want to come and point and laugh at a guy that didn't get the election result he wanted, 21st to 25th of August. Yeah, well, make sure you go see that because the jury is out as to whether Jeff will get a 2025 invite back after that. Mate, love the book. Thank you very much for coming on today. Cheers, Will. Thank you.