Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the Authentic Voice folks. I'm Vince Maidens. This is Laura Jackson. Hi everyone. just ah what have a We're go just going to have a really off-the-cuff discussion.
Speaker: We both have a lot of the same likes, the same drivers. We've done a lot of the same things, funny enough. um So you've been shooting since 21.
Speaker: Yes, I first picked up a camera at the age of 21, completely by accident. I am a conservation biologist and as part of my university studies, I got to go to places like Madagascar research and I went equipped only with a GoPro. And of course you can't get any photos with a GoPro. So I had six weeks in Madagascar and photos to show for it. So soon as I got home from that trip, I was like, okay, need to get a camera. And I started out with a little bridge camera. Oh, wow. Yeah, I didn't want to get into that whole thing of buying silly expensive lenses. Of course, it changed quite quickly. You think so at the time, right? Yeah. Yeah, and then, you know, with my research, I got to go to places like Belize. I spent three months in Kenya researching black rhinos. And the camera just didn't leave my hand. I think my research partner used to get quite frustrated. I have to say rhinos are really hard to make an interesting photo of. Yes. And you've done a really good job because I've seen some of your stuff and it's, yeah, you've, you need that access to do it because they just are monolithic standing things usually, but you've got some fantastic angles, like really, really lovely stuff. No, I totally agree. I think rhinos are so amazing. But they're quite difficult to get people to care about because you can't really anthropomorphize them. They're not like elephants. stone people. They really mourn their young. So, yeah, trying to get an interesting shot, which makes people care. Yeah, exactly. challenge. being able to do that, and you have successfully, I mean, no wonder you're an ambassador for them. So, yeah, it's excellent. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker: So what was that transition like from the zoology background into photography? You're doing it full time, basically. Yeah. Well, again, it was sort of by accident. The pandemic meant that all of my funding got cut for the project I was working on. understand that one. Yeah. So was working in Zanzibar managing a dolphin research project and then had to come home. But I'd been doing photography on the side and I'd been...
Speaker: you know putting photos on my Instagram and I noticed that there were loads of wildlife photographers and they were all way better than me but I found their content quite boring because they were just talking about manual settings and yes I wasn't interested in that at the time. So I started uploading my photos with conservation stats about the animal and the threats they were facing the wild. and And then I guess I just used the pandemic as a a trigger really to see if I could make something happen in wildlife photography. There weren't any conservation jobs going and I didn't wanna just sit at home doing nothing for a couple of years. um
Speaker: And I was really fortunate. I got to travel to Tanzania during July of 2020. Bit of a strange time. There were no travel restrictions. was there too at the same time. Were you? It was weird, wasn't it? Cause there was no one around. awesome.
Speaker: um it was amazing yeah but yeah i was there to basically document the impact of covid because obviously conservation efforts rely really heavily on and tourism absolutely yeah and the internet the overnight stop of international travel just completely curtailed any fundraising absolutely yeah yeah so i was there and um i was there for the annual world of peace migration where millions of Wildebeest, zebra, and antelopes are moving through the Serengeti Mara ecosystem in search of greener pastures. And we saw a lioness kill a wildebeest. Imagine that. yeah Imagine. It's a great time to be a predator. um But yeah, the lioness was young. It wasn't a clean kill. And unfortunately... clearly wasn't a clean kill. Yeah, the wildebeest was still alive. It just started eating. And that resulted in...
Speaker: The very bloody face. My very bloody lioness shot. Yeah. I mean, but being able to take something that is considered a bit gory and actually it tells a story, right? It tells the the complete story of what that animal's about.
Speaker: I think so. I think we have a habit of Disney-fying nature. Absolutely. It's not the Lion King. It's brutal. It's brutal it's savage. um The circle of life is pretty horrific. yeah And yeah, of course it was hard to watch. I'm i'm actually vegan. Hard to hear. Oh, God. This is very graphic. yeah But of course I'm also a scientist. So I was like, wow, this is fascinating. I need to capture this. um And I actually think having a camera helped me to be one step removed from it. because it definitely is It's just much easier. um
Speaker: But yeah, no gruesome graphic. um And then obviously that image was awarded. WPY 57. Same year as you. No, no, I'm 60. You're 57. You did it before me. Okay, okay. yeah um But yeah, and that that sort of really kick-started my career in photography, I guess. Absolutely. yeah Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that whole experience, considering it's like the Oscars of wildlife photography type thing. Yeah.
Speaker: it It's hard to explain to people that haven't been there what it's actually like. Yeah. It is, you know, people do aspire to it, and but they don't actually understand what actually that impact is. Yeah. So for you, after that happened, everything for you changed. Everything. I mean, I got my creatorship with Nikon because of that. um And suddenly I had...
Speaker: I guess it was just this this clout to approach brands and approach people that I wanted to work with in charities and literally be like, look, my image was just awarded. like i want to work with you. And I think it just gives you that leverage. definitely does. yeah I mean, be because one, it's you're one of 100 in the world. You are the best of the 100 in the world for that year. yeah And it is undeniable, right?
Speaker: Yeah, and I think there's an extra layer for me as well being a ah woman in wildlife photography because we're so underrepresented. And in my year, only seven of the 100 images were taken by women. Wow. And obviously the competition's judged anonymously. Absolutely. So it's not like there's any bias. As it should be. in yeah Exactly. Yeah, it's just that there are so few of us pursuing this. Yeah, exactly. So...
Speaker: As a woman, how do you find it in a world that is very much dominated? It's a male-dominant world, basically. But the the wildlife photography world, especially, is quite male-centric. How do you find it as a woman? Do you find that you're able to go out in the field and be more um assertive? Not assertive, but... don't know, that would be a good word for it. Like pursuing things. Yeah. Are yeah yeah are you finding that it's it's opened the door for you that you you can feel like you're kind of more confident to be there now? Yeah. I think both conservation and photography are still very male dominated. Right. um Especially in places like East Africa. When I was working in conservation out there, it was very white dominated as well. Yes. So I think I have had a lot of experience of dealing with that. And of course, there's still unconscious bias. I remember sitting in a conservation meeting and I had like a really valid point to make and it was sort of dismissed just because I was yeah young. Yeah, yeah. Maybe because I was a woman as well, but definitely I think because I was young, they were like, well, she wouldn't know better. and but I just learned about it. So but it probably was actually quite a valid point. But discounting people's ideas is just silly, isn't Yeah. I mean, otherwise, I think I've been quite lucky and I've not experienced any overt bias. Of course, there could have been things behind...
Speaker: the lens or whatever that I'm i'm not aware of. um The biggest thing that stands out to me is that being a Nikon creator, I sometimes get to loan things like the 600mm f4, which is ah yeah a beast of a lens. um And I had it with me on Moll, which is where I live, the Isle of Moll. And because I only had this lens on loan for a couple of weeks, I took it with me to photograph puffins. oh yeah Obviously, like you don't need a lens over overcome that long. Yeah, of course. But I don't really get the chance to use this lens often, so I'm going to take it. and everyone was looking at me carrying this lens, and I got a couple of comments of like, you don't need that for puffins, or like, what are you trying to photograph?
Speaker: My husband is also a wildlife photographer, and when we switched the lens over... Nobody says a word. No one looked at him, no one said a word, so I find that quite interesting. yeah um But yeah, I suppose the biggest...
Speaker: bias that's happened recently is that I had a baby just over a year ago. And I remember when I got pregnant, completely freaking out, thinking, my God, my career is over. Because there are no young mums in this industry at all. So are they asking you to like choose one yeah direction or the other? and Yeah, I've had quite a few...
Speaker: conversations with people where, you know, it progresses because I've pitched an interesting idea. And as soon as I say, well, you know, I'm not happy to leave my son at home at the moment, it just shuts down because no one's willing to put that extra effort in to sort of get you there. And I just think that I shouldn't have to. You shouldn't have to. Yeah, i shouldn't have to give up my maternal instincts just to keep my career going. But obviously that's not something that a man would have worry about. would never experience that. Yeah. no No, it would never be an issue. Absolutely. Yeah, so that's an interesting. And I don't really know how to change that because I do understand that...
Speaker: you know but perhaps i'm asking for a brand to spend a tiny bit more money to you know bring my husband with me or my mom um but i've also suggested that i would cover those costs myself so that i could do the project and it still hasn't progressed anywhere see that makes no sense to me yeah so it's interesting i do think that there's a lot that we still need to so if it were me i think in that situation i would just stick to my guns and If they're not going to play the game, then absolutely refuse because there's no reason for that. yeah It's not respectful. yeah they They want your work. Your work is what they're going to get. How it how it happens shouldn't be of no consequence to them. And obviously there's like additional barriers. I'm still breastfeeding, so i literally can't leave them at home even if I was fine to do that. But yeah, it's interesting that no matter how supportive a partner you have, there are still things that they just they can't do No, yeah, yeah. We can't do much thing. But anyhow, that's a whole other discussion. So so conservation projects that you' working on at the moment. yeah Do you want to talk about that a bit? Yeah, sure. So um I live on the Isle of Mull, I think I just mentioned. And I'm working with a charity over there called the Mullin Iona Community Trust. And in 2019, they bought a previously commercial logging forest and they are restoring it back to a native forest.
Speaker: um to basically improve biodiversity but also for members of the public to access nature which is obviously super important for mental health and well-being and that. absolutely. not Yeah. So so that that whole rewilding thing is where I'm from. It's not that popular. I mean, yeah we we have so much space because it's so congested within the UK. This rewilding idea is brilliant. I mean, the stuff that the RSPB does where they're buying up dilapidated land and turning it into wilderness areas and what...
Speaker: small individual consortium seem to be doing and and buying these spots and and rewilding. It's massive. It is, and it's so needed in the UK because we, I mean, we're one of the most nature-depleted, if not the most nature-depleted countries yeah in the world. And I think it's quite funny because we have big opinions about how other countries handle conservation issues and, like, we're one of the worst. um Yeah, there's so much to do. i do find it amazing what this charity is doing on Mole because...
Speaker: it was a fragment of temperate rainforest that had been felled to grow this commercial conifer plantation and temperate rainforest is this globally rare habitat yeah um most of which only occurs on the west western canada yeah because of the rainy humid conditions um and it's something that's only sort of people are only finding out about it now um I just think it's such a shame that so many trees in this entire globally rare habitat, it's more rare than rainforest, oh yeah and it was just felled. um But the lovely thing about the community forest on Mull, it's called Ardura, there's still like a fragment of that temperate rainforest and you can walk through it.
Speaker: And it's like being in a fairy tale land because the trees are ancient, they're hundreds of years old, and it's just covered in moss and lichen. Like it's absolutely stunning. And the moss is like dripping off the trees. It's so visual. um So I think it gives a lot of hope that I'm working on a project where, you know, several hundred years in the future, yeah it could feasibly look like that again. Wow.
Speaker: Oh, that's fantastic. that That gives you hope that there there's a people, young people like yourself making a change because older generations screwed it up. No putting it out of the way. No, exactly. and um you being able to have that voice and and and cachet that you have is is helping facilitate that. So that's a good thing. So the work that you've done in photography is carrying forward into really tangible yeah conservation movements, right? Yeah, so i'm I'm working less on the photography with that charity. I'm i'm actually helping to drive the project forwards as a biodiversity officer. you're right engaged. Yeah, so I'm literally like working on the conservation project. It's part-time. It's something i'm I'm able to do around childcare. Perfect, yeah. And it also leaves time for me to continue doing my photography on the side. But I think it's something that I noticed over the last few years. I really...
Speaker: missed being in the conservation space. And I've always tried to do photography projects that have a conservation angle because it's what I'm passionate about. But the reality is it doesn't always sell. Like people don't always want to cover that heavy conservation topic. So I really missed feeling like I had a tangible impact. So it's been really nice going back to my roots and exploring that. Well, you can it You can actually reach out and touch what you're actually working on. So there's that gratification and you're still able to deliver the image that is helping others realize it as well. Yeah, absolutely. So we're doing bird surveys, protected mammal surveys.
Speaker: We're planting trees. We're removing non-native invasive species. um Everything is going on. And then as you say, like I'm using my skills as a photographer. And your zoology and yeah background and all that is is all there. Absolutely. we had um The forest was featured in an article by Flora and Fauna International, and they used my imagery for that. So it feels really good, and it's such a natural synergy to be using the two together. so they planning on doing any reintroduction of species that it might have been impacted back then? Not sure. um I would like to introduce beaver there because I think that we would they would do a fantastic job. yeah But there's not any evidence that beaver were ever on mole. really? So um the sort of purists are like, oh, we shouldn't reintroduce a species where there wasn't one previously. but I think they'd be
Speaker: Yeah. They do so much. So much. Yeah. yeah i used to be My property, i used to have seven or eight of them. and Really? Yeah. Yeah. Very common. And what they would do to to regulate the water flow and regulate the the farmlands even is massive. Right. yeah So, yeah, they're they're incredible creatures have around. Absolutely. And with climate change as well, wildfires are on the rise. And last year was one of the worst for Scottish wildfires.
Speaker: Right. So that's actually like a real threat, yeah which we don't really have anything to mitigate against. So having beavers to sort of help with our wetland areas could only be beneficial. Absolutely. Absolutely. But no, maybe that's a conversation for many years in the future. But there's an angle you could use to justify it possibly, right? if you Yeah. As the AI models change and you can actually work and get some some empirical data on that, you know, it would be perfect for that. Yeah. but um So Nikon, how's the relationship there? It sounds like it's awesome. They support you in all these different projects? Yeah, Nikon are fantastic. And I have to say that since becoming a mother, they are the only brand who have gone above and beyond to make sure that I can come to events like this. So last year I was here at Global Bird Fair. My son was only three months old. And they literally paid for my mom to come with me so that she could be here and she'd be around the event and come bring him to me could feed Is she in the mall as well? No, she's not.
Speaker: She's in Surrey down south. um But yeah, so I feel like really, really lucky to have my partnership with them. I just think they are fantastic. um And then, yeah, I get to work on some projects with them. So they've been up to Mole to film yeah with my husband and I before. um And I've done quite a few projects in places for their optics team. So um i think I did some work for them in Uganda, Kenya, and most recently, New Zealand. Oh, wow. so That's great. Yeah. Yeah, that's really lovely. yeah They've supported you in that way that, you know, when you can take care of your your life and them as at the same time. Yeah. It works really well. Absolutely. And obviously, being a creator and having access to loan gear that I i can't afford is also pretty fantastic. Yeah. um Yeah, I get to use things like the 400mm f2.8, the 600mm f4, and yeah, just experimenting with the new lenses and new bodies when they come out is is great.
Speaker: So I know from past Canon world, I would get pre-production stuff as well. Are they good like that? Yeah, definitely. yes i think if you're a WPY alum and you have the skill sets, they want that level of image to come back to them, and and especially on their pre-production gear. So I'm not surprised you're getting that. Plus, of where you live is so picturesque. Yeah, it definitely helps. haven't been. I've seen lots and lots of pictures. I would love to come up at some point. but Yeah.
Speaker: like i so Like we were talking beforehand, it's easier to get to Kenya. Definitely takes less time. um What's the owl situation? I'm an owl guy. So what's yeah the owl situation like there in the winter? Yeah, um good. We have shorted owls in the the summer. um We do have barn owls, tawny owls. There's actually tawny owls just down the road from where I live. So all night then. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. um you don't see them all that often no they're tricky yeah yeah it is i mean i've to be fair i've never actually gone out with the sole aim of trying to photograph them listen in for blackbirds and yeah you'll yeah but the shorted owls when they're around they're really cool and though i will say that mull is obviously huge yeah and it's very dissimilar to sort of local habitats or like wildlife um
Speaker: protected areas down here where it might be a shorted owl going up and down a meadow and yeah you have so many opportunities to take photos. Like up on Mole, they do massive loops oh yeah and they might pass you every 15 minutes. And I've had clients who you know really want to take a photo of a shorted owl. Great, I know a spot, let's go, we'll sit there.
Speaker: And you just can't ever meet their expectations because, you know, down here it it is literally like a patch or a strip of meadow and they're going up and down and like you have ample opportunity to take the photo. Whereas it's so much more wild on Mull, like it really is wildlife. and and Unless you do things unethically where you're baiting and things like that, then you can control the situation. yeah But you can't in that situation. But I think that's more special because you have to work harder for the image. So when you do get the one that's like, that's it, that's what I've come here for. I don't understand i never understand the satisfaction people have with it a manufactured image. Right. and And I get that it's experience and they might be practicing some photography skills, but it's a very hollow endpoint. Right. Yeah. And I think it's important to sort of research as well, because I think we all sort of accept that baited hides are a thing. But have we actually done research behind it? That's the thing. I know that there are hides in Finland where the bears are baited, but then in the winter they're shot. Right. So it's like.
Speaker: yeah we need to be looking into it and there's definitely a level of personal responsibility does that habituation make them easier targets right yeah it's yeah it's a really it's a tough subject and I find a lot of the back push that you get from the baited folks is well there's no research done on it and I did a podcast the other day with Martin Harper who's the bird life international guy and CEO and he said he was going to go back and try to get some research started on that so that's so important because we And it would be a knock-on to other species, just not just raptors, right? Yeah.
Speaker: And I guess some of these hide systems have been set up, but not necessarily by people that actually know about the species. 100%. They're just there to photograph them, which, and you know, they probably still love them, but perhaps it's not influenced by best practice or the most up-to-date knowledge. Well, and as soon as you add money into the equation and it becomes a monetized thing, it's just exploitation, isn't it? Absolutely. they're going to look out for the bottom line as opposed to the the influence of the and the well-being of the animal. So, yeah, I am in full agreement there. yeah but Have you had experience with ah people that have negatively impacted owls animals?
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Many. Like people, about my own property, people baiting with guinea pigs. No way. Yeah. One time a a fellow came up from Toronto and had a kitten.
Speaker: What? So I had to go rescue a kitten. That's horrific. Yeah. like go But 20, so 27 years of doing that was enough, you know? So, yeah, I think it, I think it's a dangerous line when ah an image becomes more important than the welfare of the animal that you're there to photograph. Why should something die at your hand so you can make a click? It doesn't make sense to me. I i do wonder if social media is a lot to blame for that absolutely attitude. Absolutely. it's I think it's 100% the reason why, because people are rushing to get the like the like to them has value. It has no monetary value. It has no real personal value. And it's by usually by people that aren't really understanding what they're seeing. So there is no value. It's like chasing that dopaine dopamine rush, isn't It totally is. That's exactly what it So um for me, but as as one of my conservation projects is trying to push that forward. It's made me not very friendly to people, but I mean, OK.
Speaker: Right. you You just have to make a standpoint if you're if you're going to be in in the conservation realm. Yeah, I think it's difficult. um Living on the Isle of Mole, we have a lot of people coming to photograph otters. Yeah.
Speaker: And they're under a lot of pressure. and Mole's the size of Greater London. Two and a half thousand people live there. But we get 600,000 visitors a year. 600,000? 600,000. There's not much a lot of infrastructure for it. um But a lot of people want to photograph the wildlife. Right. And a lot of people specifically want to photograph otters. Right. And I totally love that because I do think wildlife is for everyone. I think with the state of the planet, we have to get people reconnecting with it. And if they're going connect by taking a photo of an otter, fantastic. The problem is that people come not necessarily knowing how to ethically approach an otter or without the correct field craft knowledge. And I've seen some really horrific things. like when an otter catches a big prey item like a crab or an octopus or a lobster they come into shore to eat it and that is when you do not move at all. If you're in the wrong place tough right? I've seen people literally run off the road directly towards the otter and the otter's seen them dropped the prey and like not been seen again And I just think what a waste of energy that that animal has The caloric impact massive. Absolutely. And I can guarantee that's not the first time that us has been disturbed that day. It's a cumulative effect. And I think people forget that. That's right.
Speaker: That's right. And and there they figure, well, I'm only here for a short time. I've got to maximize my opportunities. I'm going to go get the shot. yeah and And they either don't realize it or don't care.
Speaker: But I have had some interesting encounters because i I try to tell people if they're doing something wrong. Because if it was me, I i would want to know. Yeah, please. Exactly. um And I've had some really, really unpleasant encounters with people just basically telling me to...
Speaker: F off. And that it's my opinion it's how can they prove it. And like, even though I've got a background conservation and I've done animal behavior stuff and I've lived a mole for four and a half years, it's still not enough. But other people are really lovely and they're really grateful that I've told them. And I have to believe that most of it is just out of ignorance. It's not because people genuinely want to cause harm to these creatures, but unfortunately it's always the few that ruin it for the majority. Yeah, you have.
Speaker: I always think that if I can reach one or two people, I've done a good job and and hopefully it will cascade because they've learned. Yeah. But yeah, I think because of social media, it's just so much more churn in that space. It's just so many more opportunities for people to to see things and try to try achieve that same image. Yeah. I not understand how it happened.
Speaker: And I'm definitely seeing a trend of YouTube being a problem as well. um A lot of people, if they come up to Moll, they create like a YouTube video. Yes. um And of course, like they're always lovely to watch, but they might have learned the incorrect method of someone else's YouTube video and that person's learned an incorrect method of someone else's. And it just kind of propagates this like negative behavior. And again, I don't think people actually realize um Yeah. The creator mentality ah is challenging, I think. Yeah. yeah where you Yeah. It's difficult to know how to approach it and how to fix it. It is. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: And, and so the the whole, I've seen a lot where people will, there's an animal in the distress and they'll make all this footage and then they'll help the animal. Right. it's It just doesn't compute to me. Right. Why does, why does that video footage make the difference here? It's like that Black Mirror episode. Have you seen where everyone's just holding up a phone and not helping? I do feel like it's a very strange time to oh god yeah be alive. But not getting too deep. Well, because everybody's got the access to be creative now. Everybody has a phone. They're out there and they think they can be an expert in whatever it is they're they're they're shooting and they don't have the training that...
Speaker: you would right but again I think it's difficult because like we want people to be caring about the natural world so like this boom in photography even if it's with a phone it's fantastic because so many more people are interested it's so much more accessible now um but yeah there do maybe need to be some sort of guidelines or yeah yeah some research that we can fall back on to say yeah no I actually am right here just look at this it would be lovely if people did a bit of due diligence in in the beginning and and did some research and thought, okay, I'm going to take this up as a practice. I want to communicate because like it's clear to me that 99% of these people want to be doing good. They don't want to be causing harm, but they, and they want to help the animals, but they, like you said, they either theyre just going on gut instinct or're watching somebody else's bad advice. Mm-hmm. So, but if they actually did some real research and looked into it and looked what animals required for distance yeah and food resources and and caloric intake and not bothering them type things, it would it would maximize their experience and it would be better for everybody and the animals. Yeah, or I think even just, as you say, like a personal level of responsibility to do your research into what locations you're going to. um I've done a lot of work in Kenya because I lived there. And the Maasai Mara is a big problem during peak season. um
Speaker: Basically, there was never any limit to how many tourism camps could be set up. So it's just exploded yeah in the Masamara National Reserve. Exactly. um You know, people do day trips down from Nairobi and the people driving them are just drivers. They're not guides. And like loads of the local guides are absolutely phenomenal. And they've lived there. They've grown up in the environment. They've done their training. and They work really hard. But it's just so busy. So don't contribute to that. Exactly. Conservancies.
Speaker: Conservancies. 100%, still go to the Masomara National Reserve, but go outside of peak season. Or there's lots of private conservancies around the national park, where the animals still roam freely, but these conservancies are private, so they actually have rules of the number of tourists that can be there. Five five vehicles per sighting. Exactly. So that's the way forward because ecotourism is so important for conservation efforts. And i I think we all need to be inspired by the natural world. And, you know, if you want to go on safari, please do. It's the most life changing experience. But it's just doing your research and making sure you're going somewhere where it's got an ethical approach. I could not agree more. That's the way we do our safaris. And we only go conservancies because...
Speaker: you know that experience is going to be more controlled. There's ethics involved. The guides are highly trained. The rangers are there. You know, all the piece parts that go together to make sure that the wildlife is is in a conservation mode and you have the maximal experience. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker: it yeah It's a much nicer experience as well. I remember the last time I was in the Masai Mara National Reserve, it was really early June, so definitely not peak season. yeah yeah But do you remember there was that coalition of five-meal cheeses? Yeah, yeah of course. I can't remember their names now. oh like I know it. It's on the tip of my tongue. At the time, there were only three left, and yeah we saw them. And then very quickly, word got out that they'd been spotted. Before we knew it, there were 60 cars around. Yeah. And they started hunting and these cars were literally driving like 70 miles an hour to try and get the hunt. Interrupted it. um We left because it was awful. You can't be there. awful Exactly. um But yeah, I haven't haven't been back since. Tamar Burra.
Speaker: That's it. yeah That's it. Well done. Yeah. And that does happen quite a lot. i There was a cheetah that was lost this season as well with with Young because it was surrounded and the hyenas came in. So, I mean...
Speaker: And the thing the guides don't understand, I think, is that the knock on impact is going to hit them because people won't be there when the cheetahs are gone, which is happening rapidly. They are not easy to be replaced. They are struggling. And even the conservancies in Tanzania. And once they're gone, that's a huge tourism loss. I would like to say that it's probably not the guides that are actually feeling comfortable. It's the people, it's the customers. It's the customers. I know a lot of them have been pressured and felt really uncomfortable in situations, but because of the guests in their car, they haven't felt able to say anything. And I've heard really horrific stories about guests.
Speaker: literally throwing rocks at lions to make them move. In that scenario, the guide drove him straight back to the camp and asked the managers to make them leave. But you can see that if that's your first job or you're really relying on an income to support your family, you can understand why some guides might not be comfortable saying no to their guests. Yeah, yeah. Especially the younger, the newer ones. I even knew one person that would find these younger ones and just because they would do whatever they wanted. Let them get out of the vehicles with camera traps and stuff. So, yeah, we could do a whole podcast just on the Mara. I think so. Yeah. But, no, this has been lovely. I really appreciate your input and your level of conservation. Your age is just phenomenal. Thank Right? And you having the voice you do and the quality of work you do is just all there. Thank you. I really appreciate that you're being on the show. Thank you for inviting me to come on. It's been lovely to chat to you. love you as well. So, yeah, thank you very much.
