Transcript
Vince Maidens: And welcome to the authentic voice with, uh, myself, Vince maidens and, uh, my good friend, Josh Jalicki. Oh my God. almost said Jalicki. Cause I was thinking Yiri as we're just talking about Yiri.
Vince Maidens: Sorry. Sorry.
Josh: I'm probably related to Yuri down the line, man.
Vince Maidens: Sorry, Josh. Uh, anyhow. yeah, so this is the first show. thanks for Josh for jumping in and saying he'd come on and, you know, with his own podcast, he's, he's a very capable and helpful player here. So the wildlife photography podcast he did as with Rob, very popular in the community.
Vince Maidens: I think so. At least I listen to it a regular basis. So, so I'm going to decide what's popular on my show. And, uh, you know, uh, there was a time that it was,
Vince Maidens: in the, in the early tens here that, uh, it was you and me and Currum would be in contests and it would be some, one of us placing nearly every single bloody one.
Josh: Thank
Vince Maidens: So that, that's how I got to know you years ago. is just by running into you in the same contest. So, you know, it just fits that let's full circle this and come back around.
Vince Maidens: so welcome. Thank you for showing up. we had a couple of technical glitches here at the start, but that's normal part for the course. I think we're sorted, but, uh, yeah.
Josh: Great.
Vince Maidens: So thanks Josh.
Josh: Yeah, I really appreciate being here, Vince. Thank you so much. And I'm honored to be the first guest on your podcast. So this is great.
Vince Maidens: Wow.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Let's see how shit this is. And then we'll decide on how honored you are, but but let's hope for it so we're kind of this is kind of the you know we i call the blog the authentic voice going to call this the authentic voice and where it's just i'm trying to do things in a unique and genuine fashion right because it's kind of the way that i shoot i know it's the way you shoot and you know i think it's probably the right way for everybody to shoot but i'm not going to be the uh the fun police on everybody, really, even though I do come across like that online, I guess, because I just, you know, I see things, I say things and, you know, sometimes people get upset by it, but oh, well.
Josh: A lot of what you say, people are thinking, Vince. So, you know.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, I've heard that. It's funny. keep getting told that lately, and that's part of the reason why this has come about, right? You know, I drew at F-stop who's happily supporting this and, and,
Vince Maidens: lot of folks have given the encouragement to, to get out there and, you know, let's try to bring some sensibility back to what's going on. Right. There's a lot of, behaviors that, you know, over the years being the owl guy, right.
Josh: Yep.
Vince Maidens: I've seen every bit of bad behavior with baiting and, and, uh, chasing and harassment and whatnot.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Vince Maidens: And, you know, it's just seems to be getting worse as photography becomes more commodity based. And you start seeing on social media what the hell that has entailed, right? So how do you think that with the evolution of social media and all these digital platforms recently, how do you feel that's impacted wildlife photography?
Josh: You know, I think it's actually impacted wildlife photography mostly in the negative. And, you know, you were just talking about wildlife photography.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: For me, it's important for wildlife photography to become a passion for people, not a sport. And when it becomes a competitive sport, that's when you start to see these types of behaviors that you were talking about with owls.
Josh: And... I think it runs the whole gambit, Vince, right? Everyone, there's many, many more photographers out there in the field and everybody sees what they're shooting on social media.
Josh: And because of that, in many ways, for a lot of photographers, not all, but it becomes a sport. They want to one-up each other. And normally trying to one up another photographer that normally corresponds to getting closer to the animal, taking just standard portraits of the animal, whether it's, you know, great gray owls or whatever. And that could be a lack of field craft. They're new to photography. So you have a lot of issues right now, I think, when it comes to ethical shooting with wildlife. And a lot of that stems from the competitiveness from social media.
Josh: The other thing that's changed so much, I think, with social media, And I'll speak primarily to Instagram because that's the platform that everyone uses to share the images.
Vince Maidens: Yep. Same.
Josh: It's gone from still photography. Some years ago, go back to 2017, I would post an image. I'd get over 100 followers day, and it was all still photography.
Vince Maidens: Yep.
Josh: And it was a great spot for photographers to – not the best medium to view an image, granted, but – hey, people are looking at things on their phone, at least it's getting exposure. So it was a good community. And now, certainly with Reels, it's changed to a TikTok-like platform.
Josh: And what really sells now on social media, it's not still photography, it's these quick Reels. And the photographers who are most successful are the photographers who are selling themselves or their personality, their lifestyle. And the image is secondary to that. So I'm hoping at some point either things change.
Josh: I don't think they will, but maybe there'll be another platform, right? Or some other platform for photographers to share still photography.
Vince Maidens: I agree.
Josh: And it's about the image and it's not about their lifestyle or what they're doing or what they're eating on the weekend whatnot. I don't need to sell myself or my lifestyle as a brand. I just want to show good images.
Josh: And I think that's where it comes to me.
Vince Maidens: Exactly. Bringing back the purity to what it is photography started off as.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Listen, I am a technology guy. I totally understand it. I embrace the new, but there's a point where my fundamentalism becomes part of my ethos.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah.
Vince Maidens: And and I stick to what I know how to do. Now, if I knew how to do video, I might do it on occasion, but I think it's like you get the, the, the Jack of all trades kind of thing, master of none at that point, because I see a lot of people doing video and putting a lot of effort into the video. And I think their, their photography drops off. I've not seen a lot of like YouTube.
Vince Maidens: I'm going to probably piss a lot of people off, but there is, you know,
Josh: Yep. I know.
Vince Maidens: yeah, single digits of people producing YouTube content that really should. The majority of them couldn't put a photograph together. You know, the Epstein files will be released before these people find actual talent, right? So the...
Josh: Yeah. You either have incredible B-roll in a video you have a good image.
Vince Maidens: Right, yeah.
Josh: It's one of the two and they're typically mutually exclusive.
Vince Maidens: Exactly. Right. And so I see all these people out there putting huge amount of effort and talking to camera and all this stuff. And, you know, they just, they, they haven't done anything to warrant anybody paying a bit of attention to them.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: And, and that's okay. I mean, I see it a lot on reels. Now there's, there's a lot of kids that have taken up wildlife photography and thank God for it because,
Vince Maidens: you know, as we age out of this at someday, you know, we, we drop dead and no longer have images to create, you know, somebody has got to pick up the mantle hopefully.
Vince Maidens: but I find, uh, the larger number, you know, want to be influencers, right? So they, they're going out and they're doing things that are ethically reprehensible at their age. Uh, they're not being given the guidance that they should have been given by people that are, are, uh,
Vince Maidens: more mature and thoughtful, hopefully. And the content becomes king, right? Because these kids are, you know, I've got to keep producing. I've got to produce because A, I'm growing followers.
Vince Maidens: B, I'm being monetized, right? And you've got these kids that, you know,
Josh: Yeah. Yeah.
Vince Maidens: how they've got accounts at 14, 15, 10 years old and are, you know, capable of making all this content is incredible. and the fact, you know, they're being monetized either by their parents or they're just doing it themselves is even more shocking. Right. So,
Vince Maidens: I don't know what it says to the future or not. I did a blog on it a while ago saying we're doomed, right? Because there's kids that are just, they don't care about how they get the content as long as they get it, right? Any kind of exposure good exposure to them.
Josh: Yeah, it's a catch-22. When I was with Rob on Wild Art, we ran the Wild Art Photographer the contest, and
Vince Maidens: Yeah, that was a great, you gotta bring that back because that was good stuff.
Josh: You know, there's some announcements coming up soon. So I think I'm hoping that it will, hoping it's going to please a lot of people.
Vince Maidens: Oh, good. Okay. Don't don't pull up your spot. Yeah.
Josh: But I will say when it comes to photography concerts that are concerts, I'm thinking of music contests and some other contests I've been involved judging.
Vince Maidens: Yeah. Yeah.
Josh: Always a huge challenge in getting young wildlife photographers to submit because there's just not as many out there. We would have, you know, the youth categories, the submissions in the youth categories were, they were very low. I mean, in some cases we'd only get a couple of images. So the most part, for the most part, it's, you know, middle-aged, retired, know,
Vince Maidens: Yep.
Josh: white guys shooting wildlife photography for the most part.
Vince Maidens: Yep. Absolutely.
Josh: It's changing over the years, which is great, but it still hasn't changed, I think, enough. And getting young kids involved and active and just being outside, just putting down the Xbox or the Switch or whatever the heck it is they're playing, know, Call of Duty and all this nonsense, just go outside, experience nature. So that's great to see young photographers out there But the influencer part and how they do it and what their motivations are can be a challenge to your point. So it's a catch-22. You want to get more young kids out there, but at the same time, you want to make sure that they're starting off ethically. They love their subjects. They love nature, and they want to document nature and show the beauty of nature versus it just being a personality-driven person.
Josh: narcissistic adventure, which frankly, most of the population in this, at least in the United States, they're heading in that direction. Unfortunately, people are just more vain than what they used to be. And social media has everything to do with that.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, I definitely think that's more universal than just the States.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: You know, these kids are getting out there and creating all this content, but are they actually bettering their skills? I don't see it. I mean, there's some younger photographers here that I've had a chance to meet that are exceptionally talented.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: They stay focused on what their actual core competency is. And they get out there and they try to make images the best they possibly, well, at least until they meet girls. But, you know, there's some really talented kids with excellent eye, right? And if you don't have that excellent eye, mean, you're only going to progress so far.
Vince Maidens: And that's given if you keep at it. If they don't keep at it and actually trying to better their skills, but they're just trying to chase those likes and followers, they're just never going to progress. And when whatever platform that they're pumping up these numbers on eventually dies, and they all do, know,
Josh: Yep.
Vince Maidens: you know, what are they going to have for it? Nothing, right? They won't have better skills. just have to try to recreate it on another platform. And by that time, you know, they're 18 years old. Their little high voice is now a man's voice and nobody cares, right?
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: So if you're not actually becoming a master at your craft, whilst you are trying to produce images or content, you know, you really have very little to show for in the end.
Josh: Yeah.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: They could, you know, do both if they really put their mind to it and tried to create a skill set for themselves, but I'm not seeing it really.
Josh: Yeah, I think it all depends too on where they draw their inspiration from. Like when I was first starting, and I was not a kid when I first started photography, I started birding and being out in nature when I was a kid, but I didn't pick up a camera until, mean, I would say my late 20s, early 30s, being serious about it.
Josh: But I learned really from print. I would buy books from Art Wolf, for example, on composition, complementary colors, different types of theories on how to make picture That's how I learned.
Josh: If you have a lot of young photographers, and frankly, they don't even have to be young, just new aspiring photographers, if they're learning from a 15-second reel from social media saying, I am a photographer and here is my image and some kind of plasticky produced lifestyle, you're not going to learn the fundamental dynamics of composition itself.
Vince Maidens: Instagram styles. Yeah.
Josh: and color theory and all these different things to really, it gives you a foundation for you to eventually find your own style and then continue to build and build and build. If they're just now, yeah, most people I don't think are doing that and they're just picking their favorite photographers on social media.
Josh: They're mimicking that and maybe they develop their own style, maybe they don't, but they don't have that strong fundamental foundation of what makes a good image.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, well, that's exactly it, too. Right. And you see a lot of these like younger or new folks being picked if they if they are getting some level of success on there. There's always some hanger that's going to try to get in there and leverage that and boost their own accounts.
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Vince Maidens: Right. With with these people. And. Trying to mentor them in some way, right? And I like mentoring people. think it's a good practice. I think it's worthwhile to do if the person is receptive and capable of actually taking a bit of criticism and learning from somebody who's been there, done that.
Vince Maidens: But, you know, you can't look at it as a way to get something for yourself. You're trying to help. Right.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Not not just what's in it for me. Right. What's in it for you is that you feel good about yourself. Not not I've I've monetized my account on the back of somebody else.
Josh: Yeah, I agree. And the photographer needs to be receptive of feedback. I mean, when I was first getting feedback starting off, I mean, some of it was, it was pretty tough, but I accepted it, right? And I learned from it.
Josh: But, you know, it's either do you want...
Vince Maidens: Yep. Yeah. You know, block you. Yeah. What are those?
Josh: Yeah, it's like, do you want feedback or do you not?
Vince Maidens: Yeah. Sure. Whatever.
Josh: And I'm not trying to offend you, but I'm trying to give you some tips to help you out. We're all lifelong students in this, right? So it's no, don't take it personally.
Vince Maidens: Exactly. Yeah.
Josh: But I feel like, especially today, there's a lot of people where if you give constructive feedback to them, they may take it personally. And they see it as a personal slight, not constructive criticism to help their image out.
Josh: And that prevents growth on their part, frankly. If I didn't listen... to some of the feedback I got years ago, I'd be nowhere near where I, where I am right now on my journey, I should say.
Vince Maidens: Absolutely.
Josh: But yeah.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, yeah. Well, and you surround yourself with like-minded, strong photographers, right? Or you try to, right? People with different disciplines within whatever you're trying to do.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: You know, like we were just talking about, Yuri, master at his craft. I have no freaking clue how he does it. I can't wait to find out.
Josh: Me either. Yeah.
Vince Maidens: You know, and yeah, he's just like the savant that just goes and cracks out these insane images and it doesn't make any sense, but it's beautiful. Right. And, and it works. So, you know, constantly learning it. And I've, you know, from the WPY, you know, you get, you get introduced all these people that have been,
Vince Maidens: successful for very long periods of time, or they do different things different to you. And they're more than willing to help, right? And, or give you some kind of idea or feedback and whatnot. So if you, at whatever level you're at, these guys top level game are still giving feedback and still taking feedback, right?
Vince Maidens: So you have to look at it from that perspective is that everybody has an option to learn from anybody, right? It doesn't matter who it is. You're good. If somebody says the right thing, you might pick it up, hopefully, right?
Josh: Yeah.
Josh: And it's all about the journey. It's not, you know, the end point. There is no end point. You know, it's a constant journey and no one should be in a hurry, I think, to get from point A to point B.
Vince Maidens: Oh,
Josh: Getting from point A to point B, that's actually the fun part. Learning, discovering, yeah, learning and discovering new things.
Josh: And one of the pitfalls I find a lot of new photographers fall into, especially in the States, because these are most of the photographers I come across, obviously, because that's where I shoot most of the time.
Josh: But it's kind of like a Pokemon game for them. Oh, I want to get this bird and that bird and this, you know, and this mammal and that mammal and they're collecting images. But all they're doing is taking documentary shots of, and some of these animals are rare, right?
Vince Maidens: Right. Yeah.
Josh: I get it, right? Kalima warbler, you have to go to Texas and hike up a mountain that's a cool thing. And I get, but you're collecting, you're not creating art at that point. I think it's, try to,
Josh: avoid that pitfall and try to just even work with common subjects and focus on creating something that's aesthetically pleasing or documenting the struggles of that particular animal, your subject. It's really about focusing on composition and the beauty of nature rather than collecting things. The people who start collecting, they ultimately become more literal documentarian type photographers.
Josh: And maybe that if that's what they want, great. But if they want to go beyond that, they have to be careful not to fall in that trap.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, I totally agree with you on that one. I had a conversation with a newish photographer recently, know, they said to me, well, you've been doing this for 40 plus years. So, you know, I've got to learn my, my, my own way. And yeah, there is, but I think there's a good reason to listen to somebody who's failed miserably.
Vince Maidens: Right. And, and, Learn from it. It was, it was over something simple such as, you know, they just got a 400 to eight. He's going love that. I'm talking about this, but they just got a 400 to eight and just kind of living in two eight land. Right. And not realizing that, you know, two eight is not ever going to be your optimal.
Vince Maidens: setting, right? Unless it's really, really dark, it's not the most useful path to take. And, you know, I have similar glass. I never shoot there. I'm always stopping down, right? Because I know where my sweet spot is on any given lens.
Vince Maidens: And two, I know that if I want things to be in focus along different planes, I need to be able to work with it. Right.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: So, and, you know, you'll get people that don't enter contests and they just don't care about being in that space. Right. So if you're in, if, you know, I don't need to tell you this, but.
Vince Maidens: Entering contests, you need to have best image out of camera that you can get. So not crushing your blacks and not blowing your highlights.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: You know, you have to be able to work with that image and the light you have. Right. So whatever your settings are has to be in coordination with that option. Right. So a lot of people don't think of it in that respect. They just think I'm going to just make an image because my platform is Instagram and they think nothing of it. But the day that you get in a situation where the opportunity provides itself and you've got what would be an award winning winning image,
Vince Maidens: in your face and then you shoot it at two eight in some ridiculous setting that doesn't give you the optimal image, you just have an image for Instagram, right?
Josh: Yeah, yeah.
Vince Maidens: It could be something that could win you a WPY, but you just have an image that's ready for Instagram.
Josh: Yep, I completely agree. You know, it's interesting. I've got a 200 F2. It's an older Canon lens.
Vince Maidens: Oh God, that was a good, oh, that was a, I had one of those at least.
Josh: This came out like, oh, yeah. Was it like 20 years ago it came out? Most people use it for portraits, but whenever I'm shooting, like using that lens, for instance, if I'm shooting at an F2, I like to do it from a distance.
Josh: Like an environmental portrait and the bird's small and there's like a lot of
Vince Maidens: Well,
Josh: If I'm shooting a heron, for instance, and behind the heron, it's this busy background of a lot of brambles and trees. So it's kind of like in-camera Orton effect, right? So I'll shoot at F2, but that's when I'm at a distance from the bird.
Vince Maidens: yeah.
Josh: As I get closer, never would I shoot at F2, right? Depending upon what I want to do.
Vince Maidens: Exactly.
Josh: So it's interesting how people approach. And that's another thing too with wildlife photographers. I'm completely going down a different tangent, but everybody always wants to shoot wide open.
Vince Maidens: No go.
Josh: Whatever that lens is, always wide open. And it's not always the case. And, I, I find that a lot with photographers, especially bird photographers when they're first starting, it's okay.
Josh: Whatever, whatever's wide open, I'm shooting wide open. I'm on aperture priority and not paying attention really to different types of exposure standards and people fall that trap too.
Josh: And it's so easy to learn the camera to shoot manually.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: I mean, that's the easy part in my opinion.
Vince Maidens: Like you go out and spend all this money on gear, right?
Josh: Uh,
Vince Maidens: And then you end up with a $20,000 point and shoot, right?
Josh: That's right.
Vince Maidens: And you could, you just get an iPhone and be happy with yourself or, you know, buy something else.
Josh: Yep. Yep. And it doesn't take long to master it really, especially now.
Vince Maidens: No.
Josh: I mean, with cannons, your cannon shooter, I'm a cannon. I'm sure Nikon's the same.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: Now that I have three dials, I have one for ISO, one for aperture and one for shutter.
Vince Maidens: Oh God. Yeah.
Josh: So it's even easier. Years ago, was two clicks away. Now it's just one click. So it's, it's not hard.
Vince Maidens: Well, it's even, I mean, use auto ISO most of the time anymore. It's, it's so good, right?
Josh: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Vince Maidens: You don't need to really care about ISO. Everything with it's.
Josh: That's right. Yeah. Because years ago, if you went over, in some of my cameras, you went over 800, you were toast.
Vince Maidens: Oh God. Oh God. Yeah. Listen, I started in film.
Josh: Think of the 7D. Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Believe me, I am very much aware of how ISO used to be important.
Josh: Yeah. Yep.
Vince Maidens: It just isn't anymore. Right. So, uh, yeah, it's, it's a whole other world. So you let's talk about that using the environment and making an image as a story.
Vince Maidens: Cause I think a lot of people today do tend to just see what happens on Instagram and they, like you said, become a documentarian as opposed to actually creating a story.
Vince Maidens: Like if you look at that shoot small hub on Instagram, which I think is it's the best one going because it's actually interesting.
Josh: Yeah.
Josh: Oh, yeah. I follow that.
Josh: It's amazing.
Vince Maidens: Right.
Josh: I agree.
Vince Maidens: And there's so much talent there. It's, it's, it makes me happy to see it because most of the time you just go through the doom scroll of garbage and you know, you're baited Kingfisher, baited badger, blah, blah, blah.
Vince Maidens: Right.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: It's the same crap over and over and over. And you can't tell the difference between anybody's images in that space, but you look at that shoot small where they're using the environment they're using, they're using the weather, you know, and the, it's just beautiful work.
Vince Maidens: And, you know,
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: how do we get that back right it used to be everybody shot like that you know you get an ansel adams or like you said art right art wolf you know he started as a painter i got to work with him when i was in the canon program back in early 2000s so i got actual it was i mean the stuff you learn from the guy is incredible because he sees patterns like nobody else
Josh: Yeah.
Josh: Oh, that's amazing.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: I don't if you've seen his YouTube series that he's had going on for the past couple of years, but he went to Australia and shot and he just saw these reeds in the water and started shooting it. And he made this incredible image.
Vince Maidens: It just beautiful.
Josh: Yeah, you're right. He has an eye for patterns, lines, curves.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: I mean, color. I mean, everything. I have to write him a letter. There's so many things I need to thank him on, and I never met him. I've just bought his books over the years, and he's taught me so much on composition, especially.
Vince Maidens: Yeah. He's great guy.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, he's a lovely guy and he would respond. He's that kind of guy. But, you know, we're losing that sensibility, I find, with a lot of current photographers because it's, like they said, they see what they see on Instagram and that's what they shoot for because they feel that's the correct path, right?
Vince Maidens: It's the commodity path.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: It's not the correct path.
Josh: Yeah, I agree. I agree. Environmental images too, I've always been attracted to them, especially over the last couple of years because it challenges my eye more from a compositional standpoint.
Josh: You're almost a landscape photographer in a certain way if you're shooting environmental portraits of animals.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: I also like to include a lot of content in my environmental portraits. There's minimalism, which is a different way of doing it, right?
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: Where the animal's small in the frame and you have tons of negative space and that works too. I do that a lot, especially like high key, low key stuff, but...
Vince Maidens: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josh: When it comes to environmental portraits, I like to include a lot of content. And you have to be hyper aware of how much content to include. You have to work the edges when you're framing it, right?
Vince Maidens: Yes.
Josh: So I feel like my creative mind is much more active and it works a lot harder and it's more satisfying to get those images than just filling the frame with the animal, rule of thirds, boom, right?
Vince Maidens: Absolutely.
Josh: If I'm going to get close, I actually like the more details, you know, where... maybe it's a portion of the animal. If I'm shooting a great blue heron, maybe it's a portion of the bill in the eye, right? Or if I focus on textures and details, that's more attractive to me than just putting it rule of thirds, fill in the frame with it.
Josh: And to me, I should say, right? I mean, I started there. I started worse from that, you know, and I eventually started to find, you know, certain things that I like in my own style. But that's why I've always been attracted to the environmental portraits.
Josh: And you were talking about that Instagram hub. awesome, the stuff they have on there. It's beautiful. It helps people grow because it's stronger. You need stronger compositional techniques. You need to consider light more. You need to consider the edges, where you place the animal in it, what your exposure technique is, what time of day, all that stuff because you have a lot more content. You're not just considering the bird and silky smooth background. Everything's blown out and it's soft.
Josh: That's just, it's what it is. So there's so many more considerations in there and it's way more fun to play with.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: And you can help tell a story too.
Vince Maidens: And they look less fabricated, right?
Josh: I agree.
Vince Maidens: You get all these really just smashed down backgrounds and it just looks fabric.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Now I love a smash background if I can do it in camera, but I'm not going to make that change post.
Josh: Gautium blurb, boom.
Vince Maidens: Right. Yeah, exactly.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: It's just, that's the thing, right? A lot of newer folks, they, you know, I'll just get it right in post, right?
Josh: Yeah, which is not good.
Vince Maidens: They don't actually think that the background's important, you know, your angles are important, leading lines are important, you know, there's all these factors into what makes great photography great, and then what you get on Instagram is so bloody mediocre, right?
Josh: And it's hard for Instagram.
Vince Maidens: And
Josh: Well, it's hard to use these images put these images on Instagram because it's just not the right format to convey these images, right? Like when I take an image, my ideal medium is a print, right?
Josh: I want to make a print of it and I want to put it in a gallery and I'd love for somebody to buy it. Not because it's a great blue heron or snowy egret or a black Bernie and warbler. I want them to buy it to say, this is a really nice scene and I want put it in my living room and I would be honored.
Vince Maidens: Fine art.
Josh: That to me is the greatest honor versus
Vince Maidens: Agreed.
Josh: 10,000 likes and viral and, you know, people sharing my stuff on social media.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, exactly. You can't eat a like, right? But you can eat the funds of what somebody's paid for that print.
Josh: Yeah.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: And that's not what it's about. It's exactly what you said. It's the honor of being on display in somebody's home or a gallery, right? That is a huge, massive honor printed in a book, you know, in a contest, et cetera. Those are where if you are a photographer that has lot of respect for yourself and your craft, that's where you want to end up.
Vince Maidens: And I know we're going to get into the discussion at some point with somebody where, you know, I don't want do contests and I don't want to do this and I don't want to that. And that's great if that's what you really don't want to do.
Vince Maidens: But I have met, I've never met anybody that said that they wouldn't like to have a WPY win if they're a wildlife photographer.
Josh: Oh, I totally agree with you on that. I mean, again, it's the Oscars in wildlife photography. And one thing I'll say, speaking of WPY, and I think this blends into another point I wanted to make on environmental portraits, it's not enough these days because of the decline of wildlife.
Josh: I mean, you go back to the 1970s, it's like a 65% decline, in some cases even more, like if you go to grassland species and birds.
Vince Maidens: Mm-hmm.
Josh: It's not enough now to have a pretty image of an animal anymore. You need to tell also the story, and I think it's incumbent upon us photographers to document what's going on.
Josh: So photojournalism has become a major medium in telling the story of the decline of animals. It's tougher in certain subjects than even North America.
Josh: It's like, how do you tell the decline of, or how can you convey the decline of songbirds, for instance, right? Well, maybe it's window strikes, or maybe it's whatever. So,
Vince Maidens: Yeah. Like last year with, with Patton and her, uh, image from Toronto that won the bee party, right?
Josh: yes. And what?
Vince Maidens: Incredible.
Josh: very strong. You look at and you're like, oh my goodness, right?
Vince Maidens: Like that hits you like a truck.
Josh: There's beauty in that death, but totally.
Vince Maidens: Yeah. Yeah. The way she arranged all that, it hits you like a truck.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Do you see that vast amount of species in numbers from one small area in Toronto that had that level of impact?
Josh: Yep.
Vince Maidens: Right. And it was incredible.
Josh: Yeah. And
Vince Maidens: Hard image, not something I would have ever thought to do or necessarily like to look at, but it is the power within that image that made it win, right? And she's a brilliant,
Josh: I had an image, I don't know, couple of years ago, was in Shetland where there was Northern Gannet hanging from a fishing net, right?
Vince Maidens: yeah.
Josh: Because they use fishing materials as part of their nesting process.
Vince Maidens: That's
Josh: So that image was strong for me and I wanted to go a little looser And I had a number of other gannets around that dead gannet that was just dangling there, just trying to, you know, create the next generation and move on.
Josh: It shows the resilience, you know, avian flu they've been dealing with and all these other things.
Vince Maidens: Yeah. Oh God. Yeah.
Josh: So it's incumbent upon us to take these opportunities. And it's not just about a pretty image anymore. We have to move on because we're going to lose these animals. We're going lose so many species in the next couple of years in our lifetime.
Vince Maidens: That's right.
Josh: So it's really scary.
Vince Maidens: That's you, you, you nailed it. And WPY is, is kind of unique. They've gone from being that portraiture type thing to more of a documentarian behavioral level of image that, that wins as opposed to, you know, a static shot of something, right? There has to be something happening to really make the impact in that one. it's not so much about the art making, making something that's like a piece of fine art doesn't necessarily cut it within the, in that contest anymore, where, you know, bird photographer of the year seems to be a bit more focused on like,
Vince Maidens: magazine-y, at least the past couple of years, we can get into that too. I plan on that because you judge too, and want your opinion. Each contest has its different nuances in what it's looking for and what it puts up, right?
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Vince Maidens: And WPY...
Vince Maidens: definitely has gone that hard level of journalism and then behavior, right? The, the artistic pieces, they have their own class, but I mean, it's, it's, they're definitely looking more in the space of, of telling that strong, impactful story about whatever species is in question.
Josh: Yeah.
Josh: And there's other photo competitions, I think, that have really dove into the artistic. So when I think of like artistic images, I don't, and certainly WPY covers those, but I mean, there's other contests too that focus almost exclusively, like big picture, I can think of, Esferico in Italy, Nature Photographer of the Year, Q Potty.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Yeah. Yeah.
Josh: I mean, there's other contests out there that really focus more on just the artistic aesthetic versus, to your point, yeah, agreed.
Vince Maidens: Which is good because know for me, will go out and shoot behavior, but I also want to shoot that fine art too. And I need, if I'm going to, tailor my images in a contest, I want to know what is expected of me, basically, before I enter.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: So that's a good segue. You being a judge as well, let's talk about that.
Vince Maidens: The whole concept of being somebody within the community that actually shoots the subject. actually shoots whatever is being judged do you not find that that has or resounding impact on the quality of what the contest is actually saying at that moment prime example let's bring it up because it's the elephant in the room and rob's not on so i don't want to put any pressure on him and if you feel uncomfortable saying so just tell me bird photographer of the year this year that the uh
Josh: Okay. It's
Vince Maidens: The silver award, clearly fabricated. Let's just say for what it was.
Josh: the quickest, you know, 120. What was the shutter speed on that?
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: That was 1.250, I think it was.
Josh: It's the quickest 120 if I've ever seen in my life, but yeah.
Josh: Okay.
Vince Maidens: Getting an entire flock of them in focus, it's just not happening.
Josh: Copy, paste, right?
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Yeah. Right. So, you know, I think had the judges being actual bird photographers and not so much, I'll say it again, influencers, and, and non-traditional photographers, because I, they do take images, but they are not in the traditional sense photographers.
Vince Maidens: to.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Cause I don't want Rob giving you shit for it. Cause I don't, even though he's arm's length and gone from that, I know he's going to have some sensitivity about it cause it was his baby.
Vince Maidens: But, you know, the, the, uh, the impact of having people that wouldn't have, that would have caught, caught that real time right before it got out and became an embarrassment.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: would have saved that competition a lot of reputation because I know right now, I know for myself, I am absolutely not interested in entering that contest for a while. One, they don't publish to the judges are ahead of time. So I cannot do my due diligence and see what it is that those judges one shoot and two appreciate so that I know if I have a vast array of content that I can provide, what I will tailor to put in that contest.
Vince Maidens: And two, I don't necessarily trust the level of judgment as being on level playing field.
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Josh: Yeah. Well, I'll say this, Vince, speaking of the image, that silver award that got disqualified, which, I mean, the wildlife photography community is small. When you get to the bird photography community, it's even smaller.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: So everybody talks. I mean, that lit up like lightning when, was that two weeks ago, I think, when they issued that disclaimer.
Vince Maidens: Yeah. Yep.
Josh: So everybody was talking about it. The first thing that came to my mind as a judge you know, where was the raw image, right? So when you, there's, if you get moved on to the final round, you know, we've all been there, we submit the raw image, we submit the high res TIFF, and we have to give, you know, an additional storyline around it or just more context.
Vince Maidens: Yeah. Yeah.
Josh: So did that happen? And if it did, how could that photographer have faked it? Did he just say, oh, well, I shot it in JPEG and here's the JPEG? Or what I'm hoping did not happen is, you know,
Josh: he submitted a raw or he declined to submit the raw and they just passed it over and just gave that photographer a pass because they liked how the image looked. Hopefully that's not what happened because you really need to, everybody makes mistakes.
Josh: And when you're getting 35, 40,000 images, there's gonna be some things maybe that slipped through the cracks, I get it.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: But this one seems pretty obvious to me, right? So I don't know what happened because obviously as everyone knows, they DQ'd it after the results were already announced.
Vince Maidens: Went to print. Yeah. I mean, it's seven months after it was awarded, really.
Josh: Yeah, absolutely. And it's not like the anteater, right?
Vince Maidens: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josh: In WPY, everybody knows the anteater story where, okay, you could submit the raw on that because it was there in the image.
Vince Maidens: Or the wolf.
Josh: In this case, you really can't submit a raw because certainly it was blended.
Vince Maidens: That's right.
Josh: And we all know that the swallows were probably pasted based on the camera settings and Looking at the shadows of those marigold flowers or whatever they were.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: So yeah, everybody has questions around that. I'm not sure if they'll ever explain it, but better late than never is my opinion on that. So I'm glad they came out and at least they did DQ it.
Josh: But yeah, I don't know. I still have questions around it.
Vince Maidens: So I messaged Will right away, who's the owner and head of the competition. And, you know, he was pretty front with me because I said, look, what the hell is going on?
Vince Maidens: Because, you know, this is doom for you at this point, right?
Vince Maidens: If you don't actually get out in front of this, you're screwed.
Josh: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Vince Maidens: Nobody's going to bother. And he said, you know, basically it made it through the original or the request for Raw was granted and it passed scrutiny at that point. And then upon further investigation, somebody had said, you know, the settings don't make any sense, dude.
Vince Maidens: And they did some forensics on it. They found out that it was not genuine.
Josh: Oh, okay.
Vince Maidens: Okay, so that's interesting, right? So was it a fabricated raw? I think it might have been, right?
Josh: Which even shows, you know, the photographer was even more nefarious about it, right?
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: I mean, there was intent to deceive, which, you know, and that ruins your reputation. All it takes is one thing like that. I mean, do you really want it that badly where you're going to try to slip through and ruin your reputation from here on out?
Vince Maidens: You get one. You get one.
Josh: I mean, it's so foolish. All we have is our word, right?
Vince Maidens: As a Nikon ambassador.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: He's a Nikon ambassador for Christ's sakes. What the hell, right? I mean, if you...
Josh: I met him, by the way, Vince.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Uh-huh.
Josh: He was a category winner. I was a category winner. His image was amazing. I remember it. We had like a little awards dinner before the ceremony and I chatted with him a little bit and, you know, whatever.
Josh: So we went to the ceremony. It was great. We had the ceremony. And then afterwards, the grand prize winner, a German photographer, his name escapes my mind at this point. But anyhow, he had a really cool swallow image. And when you win the grand prize, there's a specific... little trophy they make. I think there were like two Avocets crossing bills. It was really pretty. It was like a marble-like trophy.
Josh: I didn't think anything of it went in and out of my brain at that point in time. But when I saw this, was like, oh, I forgot about that. So he, as the category winner, this photographer, goes up to the grand prize winner and says, hey, can I borrow the trophy?
Josh: So he took the trophy and he walked and he was having people get photos of him with the grand prize trophy.
Vince Maidens: Oh, no.
Josh: And then he made some reels about it showing him like, that's a little interesting. I'm looking at this.
Vince Maidens: gives you the ick right there, doesn't it?
Josh: I'm like, yeah, was like, okay, this is a little bizarre. I wouldn't do that because certainly I didn't win it.
Vince Maidens: That's right.
Josh: And it kind of, you know, left my brain. And then when I saw this, was like, oh, okay.
Vince Maidens: Brought it all right back.
Josh: So it kind of did. And I, you know, I don't want to think, I don't like to criticize other photographers, but that stood out and the ability to try to intentionally deceive, just to win a, it just, you know, it makes no sense.
Josh: And his reputation is going to be ruined from here on out, unless, you know, something happens, but no, I'm with you.
Vince Maidens: You don't come back from this. You just don't come back from it, right?
Josh: Yeah. Yeah. All we have is our word. And once that, you know, once people see that they're not going to trust anything ever again that you put out.
Vince Maidens: That's right.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: That's right. And they're going to go back and scrutinize what you've already done.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Right?
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: So, yeah, it's pretty poor. But, yeah, it should have been dealt with.
Josh: But yeah.
Vince Maidens: You know, judging does matter in these situations, right? You can't just assemble a group of people and expect them to have expertise in whatever that they're looking at.
Vince Maidens: Like I, if somebody said, Vince, come and judge a fashion photography competition, there's no way I'm going to do that. One, I couldn't be asked to do it. Two, I wouldn't really know what I'm looking at.
Vince Maidens: Is it good? Is it not good? I don't know. The aesthetic for me might work, but is it?
Josh: And the Giorgio Armani Award is brought to you by Vince Maiden.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. Oh shit. Yeah. Nobody needs that one.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Right.
Josh: Back to your original question. I think being a practitioner is helpful in being a judge, right? So when I'm looking at images and being a wildlife photographer, I think that certainly gives me more insight in the ability to scrutinize images and look at the end of the day all contests are subjective right the judges i always tell people they'll come to me and they'll say josh you're a judge i haven't been winning contests i'm really upset i feel like you know i want to just put my camera away forever and just move on i'm like no it's not about that if you're consistently growing as a photographer if you're consistently getting in into the semi-finals or maybe you have a commended image here and there that's what counts use that as a maybe a metric for yourself in terms of being able to be recognized and getting material out there.
Vince Maidens: Absolutely.
Josh: Don't always count on winning a contest because it's like a hole in one and it's always, always subjective. But I think to your point, the judges should be practitioners. If they're not practitioners, it's very hard for them, in my opinion, to truly discriminate because that's what it comes down to.
Josh: It's easy to narrow down when you're judging a contest, you narrow down to the top 100 and then you go into each category and you narrow down to the top five or 10. That's the easy part.
Vince Maidens: That's right.
Josh: The hard part is looking then at the details and discriminating to say, okay, this should be number one, this should be two and three and whatever.
Vince Maidens: Yep.
Vince Maidens: Exactly.
Josh: And I think being a practitioner gives you the ability to properly do that versus someone who just appreciates wildlife and is not a photographer.
Vince Maidens: Exactly.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, I agree. I want to get Andy Parkinson on here at some point to explain.
Josh: Yeah.
Josh: Oh, yeah. I mean, he would know. I mean, he's got so much great experience. He's so eloquent, too. Andy, I've never met him before, but he almost made me go totally vegan.
Josh: He gave a whole presentation on being a vegan, and he talked about the industry and what they, you know, pig slaughter, all this stuff. And I almost immediately went.
Vince Maidens: Oh, yeah.
Josh: I mean, he's such a powerful speaker. I hope to meet him one day.
Vince Maidens: Oh, yeah. Well, when you're over, we'll talk about that later on too.
Josh: Okay.
Vince Maidens: I have to see if we can sort that out because he is a lovely guy. He has so much time for anybody, right? And, you know, Kev Morgan's, I know for a fact that, you know, one of his mentors is Andy Parkinson and, you know, he pays attention to the community.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: He goes and like, I had a bit of, like I was talking about this young influencer kid. I went on one of his posts and made a comment saying, you know, it's great that you're trying to do this with wildlife, but, you know, really think about what your personal reputation is going forward and, you know, what you're trying to get out of wildlife, not just content, you know, and he, but he actually backed me up on that post. Right. And, and, you know, he's just a solid guy and he truly knows what good is.
Vince Maidens: Right. And if you don't have people that know what good is, you are compromising those results.
Josh: Absolutely. Absolutely. And no one does it. No one does a mute swan better than Andy Parkinson.
Vince Maidens: Oh, that and bloody the mountain hairs. I mean, God, the guy is...
Josh: Oh yeah, that's right. He and Kevin used to go up in Scotland. I'm sure they still do, but, uh, and the conditions always look super tough.
Vince Maidens: Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Josh: You could, you know, what surrounds them.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: He had an image that one big picture a couple of years ago. was, uh, mountain hair with all like ice and snow around It was just a, it was a portrait.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josh: It was just a gorgeous shot.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, there's nobody who does hairs better than him.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Vince Maidens: And, yeah, and people that get very upset by not winning, I am totally in the same space as you because you can't, you have, like, you have a tenth of a second to get that judge's attention, right? Because they're going through those images at pace.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: And,
Josh: And it's got to be fresh too, I would say, Vince. One thing that's hurt images, and I've been in multiple contests, if it goes viral on social media and everyone's digested it and consumed it, it's not going to get that same dopamine hit for the judges when they first look at it, right?
Vince Maidens: oh, yeah, Dune.
Josh: They're going to like, oh, I've seen this before, but it's a great image.
Vince Maidens: Oh
Josh: It's going to lose out. In my opinion, I've seen these images lose out. The only one that has not in history, Amit Eshel. He had those two rams.
Vince Maidens: yeah.
Josh: Everyone saw that image. It went viral on social media, but it was still too damn good.
Vince Maidens: Yep.
Josh: And it's the only one I've ever seen that got beyond that.
Vince Maidens: Well, and his, his bloody Arctic wolves that he just had too, he posted that.
Josh: Oh, my God.
Vince Maidens: He he's an anomaly.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: He's such a nice guy too. I got to get him onto. He's just a lovely guy. And absolute talent.
Josh: Oh, yeah. The expeditions.
Vince Maidens: Just
Josh: What is that? That island up in Canada with the Ark Ellesmere.
Vince Maidens: Ellesmere.
Josh: That's right.
Vince Maidens: Yeah. Awful.
Josh: I've known people who have gone up there and have not gotten the wolves. You know, they got muskox and some things, but he went up there, I guess it was two or three years ago.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: I mean, they were walking right around him with blood. I mean, the bloody mouth. It was insane.
Vince Maidens: Oh yeah.
Josh: It was insane.
Vince Maidens: He sent me some of the shots as it was happening. Cause I, I, I was messaging him and saying, how much fuel are you taking?
Josh: Oh, my God. Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Cause you have to bring your own fuel when you up there for the length of time you eat it.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: need huge amount of canisters by the way.
Josh: Oh my God.
Vince Maidens: And, uh, You know, he sent me some of these shots of these wolves just walking around. I'm like, are you kidding me? Because they don't really know what people are right up there. They're just, they're not really sure. And they're not that afraid of anything because they're not persecuted as much as they would be south.
Vince Maidens: And, you know, just the stuff that he, you haven't even seen the best shots, I think, out of that one from him yet. So it's, yeah, it's crazy.
Josh: Oh my God.
Vince Maidens: He just gets himself into opportunities that just are incredible.
Josh: Yeah. I,
Josh: He had that one shot. I think he was recognized. Maybe it was GDT. It was somewhere recently, and it was one of the Arctic wolves. You could see the blood all over the snout, and then in the distance, there's a little pack of muskox looking.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: I mean, I'm like, talk about a story.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: Just everything, right?
Vince Maidens: That's a story, right? Exactly.
Josh: I mean, yeah.
Vince Maidens: That's, that's your cycle life story right there.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: That type of photography is so much more attractive to me. And in a way, it's not digital art either. I mean, it's documentarian to a certain extent, but you're telling a story.
Josh: It's aesthetically pleasing. It's high key, the colors. There's so many other things. You don't have to be completely abstract to have an artistic image that conveys a story.
Vince Maidens: That's right. And, and, but that's the whole point of getting it right in camera. You get your vision of a story. And, and I think we'll segue into another thing.
Josh: Yeah.
Josh: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vince Maidens: I get an idea in my head of something I want to see when I find an opportunity. And I kind of plan it out in my head how I want it to look, what I want to look in the image, how I want to position it.
Vince Maidens: And when I know what the area I'm going to be in, as I'm trying to get into the background I want, and like you said, all the edges and whatnot, all the content in there. Do you find that's part of your process as well, where you're actually pre-planning a lot of stuff, or you just completely opportunistic?
Josh: Well, I think my best images, and I think most people would say this too, their best images are close to home. And that's where I can plan.
Vince Maidens: That's good.
Josh: Because like, for instance, where I live, I've got a place on the Eastern Shore Maryland. So I'm right near, right behind my house is this shallow water cove. off the Chesapeake Bay. I know every bird that's there. I know every, you know, I, named them. I even give names to these. So I know where they're going to be every evening.
Josh: can go out and I know where they hang out and it helps me plan and figure out, okay, how do I want to compose? What do I want to do tonight? And I can kind of foreshadow it a little bit my head. Never goes according to plan, but I get in the right, I'm there.
Josh: I'm in the right area and in the right space.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: And that's where I, that's where I basically get, my opinion, my best images from, The images that I've had over the years that have been most recognized, they're great blue herons. My buddy, GE, I call him.
Josh: I know these birds and I see them all the time. Now, Amit, for instance, when he went up to Ellesmere, whenever I've been in situations like that, I'm somewhere for the first time or I'm on an expedition or if I'm traveling somewhere, rarely.
Josh: Do I have time to plan? Unless I'm staying and shooting in the same location for like a week straight. That's happened a couple times.
Vince Maidens: Right. Yep.
Josh: But typically, you go on these trips and I'm in Kenya, for instance, I go to Amboseli for a little bit. Then we go to the Mara. Then we go to Sumburu. And you're there for such a short amount of time.
Josh: You just photograph what comes across your lens. And because you're seeing some of these things for the first time, you tend to go more conservative. You want to get the shot versus, you know what?
Josh: I'm going to do some. some motion blurs, some pan blurs, and you're giving up opportunities for just solid images to post online or put in your portfolio. So you're more conservative and you don't have a chance to plan as much.
Josh: So yeah, I think the best images are planned.
Vince Maidens: Agreed. Yep.
Josh: And I think for me and most people, the best images are local because they can predict what's going to happen and they can easily get back to that location over and over and over again.
Vince Maidens: That's right. For us, when we go to the Mara, I mean, been there many times. The guides that are used are, they live there in the Mara, they're Maasai, and they know every single corner.
Vince Maidens: How they manage to navigate around the area is incredible.
Josh: Thank
Vince Maidens: You know, turn left at the tree that looks like a spear, right?
Josh: you.
Vince Maidens: They're saying it in Maa. And you know, they just know exactly where everything is and something happens and they know the cat and, or, or whatever animal it is, or, and they'll position you in the right spot, but you get that local knowledge, right.
Vince Maidens: Of that, those local guides mean everything. If you're going to spend money on a trip, you spend it with people that are passionate about it and know the space, right.
Vince Maidens: Because like you said, if you don't have that opportunity to get the best,
Josh: Yeah. Yeah.
Vince Maidens: you know, you're going to go there and make your record shots and you're going to do all the, you know, I'm going to get the bird at 1 4,000th of a second or 1 3200th of a second because I've got to get that static shot. And then going to get creative, right? Having that person there with you that knows what to look for gives you that leg up because you can actually get more creative in the moment, right? as you get those, those, uh, static feed me shots that you need, you can start to actually play.
Vince Maidens: but yeah, I mean, there's a lot of, value in shooting close to home. I mean, truly it is absolutely, as you say, the best bet for you to get that expert image because you know exactly what environment you're in.
Josh: These are the subjects I think that know, demand some of our attention. We were just talking about Andy Parkinson. I mean, he's made so many beautiful images of mute swans, which obviously are super common.
Vince Maidens: Yeah. Yeah.
Josh: I think it's, it's great to see more images of mute swans or Canada geese or great blue herons. I'm just, it can be just as beautiful and done just as well as seeing a pangolin seeing, you know, some lions on a zebra carcass or whatever.
Josh: Right. So, There's beauty in everything. And a lot of times these common subjects just get overlooked because they're common. People just want to move to something different. That, in my opinion, is a tactical error that too many newer photographers make.
Josh: They want to find something that they consider, at least in their head, it's something that's exotic. Now, practice on the stuff you see every day.
Vince Maidens: Exactly. Like, learn your craft on something that you can hit any day of the week.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: And then when you feel that you want to move to that next level, take that trip.
Josh: Yeah.
Josh: Yep.
Vince Maidens: Go work with that photographer that you want to go with. You know, that that's when it's actually going to be of value to you. Just go ahead.
Josh: Yeah, I was going to say the one thing that I do like about taking trips versus shooting from home, when I'm shooting at home, normally it's after work, know, I'll get in the kayak for an hour or two, or I shoot before I start work, or it's the weekend and I have plans Saturday night and, you know, I want out in the morning and shoot.
Josh: I always feel like I'm time constrained or I'm looking at my watch in those situations because, you know, I, got to get to work or I got to get home and get ready to go out somewhere and meet friends and what have you. When you're shooting on a trip and you're only there to take photos, let's say you're in the Mara for a week or you're in Kenya, you're completely zoned in, you're dialed in and you're not worried about the time.
Josh: I do like that freedom that I don't get when I shoot locally.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, that's a very good point.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Yep. Yep. That is very true. That is very true. And if you couple it with a good group and guide, you know, you're even better off, right?
Josh: Yeah, absolutely.
Vince Maidens: So going back to the local stuff, really, you know, Do you find that in those situations that you get an experience that might've actually changed the way you feel about those images and then it drives you be more creative?
Josh: mm-hmm
Vince Maidens: Like your heron, for example, right? Do you actually find that there have been moments that you've made an image so good of that bird that it just drives you to keep trying it in different ways?
Josh: Yeah, absolutely. Because I spend so much time with these birds, I mean, good example, this one bird, I call GE, he's a great egret.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: He comes around, it's a northern dispersal, and they show up in my cove normally late August until maybe the first week of October, they're there in late summer. This bird just walks right around. mean, he'd walk over my head if he could, he just doesn't care. So you start with, oh, okay, here's a shot of the great egret, and it's like, okay, going to get a...
Josh: I'm going to pull back a little bit in the kayak. I'm going paddle back. I'm get an environmental portrait. Oh, there's a feeding shot. Let me get a little closer. So it gives you the opportunity to spend more than one day, maybe weeks even with the same subject.
Josh: And it's important too that, you know, I go out of my way, so I'm not disturbing. One good thing about environmental portraits is very quickly is you're not getting close to the animal and you're not stressing it.
Vince Maidens: Exactly. Yep.
Josh: That's another plus of doing those, but Yeah, so you spend more time with these birds and these subjects, and then you get to play around with different compositions. And some work better than others, but it's fun.
Josh: And it's not about finding the next thing. You just sit around and observe. There's nothing better than when you get to a point as a wildlife photographer. And this took time for me. It took years, actually, because I put pressure on myself.
Josh: I need to go out. I need to get a great image. And if I don't get a great image, I'm going to be really upset about that. Now, I have no desires to get great images. If it happens, it happens. And I find when I go out without pressuring myself and I just let things unfold in front of me and I just observe and I take images when it feels right, I'm much more successful now than I was years ago when I was trying to push myself. Because what I would do is I would say, okay, not much has happened in here.
Josh: The great Ygritte isn't fishing and he's not going to do anything crazy. yeah, I need to keep kayaking. Maybe there's an otter down the way or maybe, you know, so I'd let it go and then I wouldn't find anything, right?
Josh: And then I'd be upset with myself and I'm like, no.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: I come across something, I just wait it out and see what happens and if it happens, it happens.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, I always find I go out with full intent that I'm gonna make my next WPY image out of this thing.
Josh: yeah.
Vince Maidens: And it doesn't happen and I'm okay with it, right?
Vince Maidens: Because I've done this long enough to know that, you know, hey, you're gonna get skunked every once in a while.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah.
Vince Maidens: You know, it's not gonna work in your favor. You are gonna miss that image. You are gonna cock it right up. And you know, oh well, right? Live another day. You've got new experience under your belt. You've seen something exceptional.
Vince Maidens: Take that as the win. And then, you know, hope for the best next time you just keep at it. And eventually you're going to have the success you want. Hopefully. I mean, I mean, I can't guarantee that. Don't take that as a, as a Vince said that you'll be great. Just bang at it. But I mean, you got to keep at it. If you, if you don't keep at it, you're never going to get it.
Vince Maidens: That's, that's a fact, right?
Josh: Yeah, that's right.
Vince Maidens: So.
Josh: I mean, there's some people who are lucky when they come across a once-in-a-lifetime, especially behavioral images, right, that you see in WPY. Some of these things that are captured, these are once-in-a-lifetime things where you have to be in the right place in the right time. You're not...
Josh: constructing that. Like if you come across static heron and the light is a good way, you back up a little bit, you create a really pretty environmental portrait or nice kind of loose in the frame composition, that's within your power.
Josh: But if that great blue heron stabs and takes a snapping turtle out and it tries swallowing it and it can't swallow, that's just kind of a crazy moment, right?
Vince Maidens: Yeah, exactly.
Josh: And it's But the only way to be lucky and being able to witness that is more time out in the field.
Vince Maidens: Yep.
Josh: The more time you're out in the field, the more you increase your chances of coming across something like that.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: But those behavioral moments are out of everybody's control.
Vince Maidens: Yep.
Josh: They just happen and the photographer is there. So in many ways, you're taking advantage of something that's been brought to you. In some ways, it's lucky. But there's so many things you still can control.
Josh: Even if it's a static animal, you could still make a beautiful image. Uh, but these, behavioral moments, the only way to do it, I keep telling people that people would say, Josh, look at that. I mean, how did they do that? They were so lucky.
Josh: I'm like, well, they were lucky, but they were there.
Vince Maidens: It's a big part of it.
Josh: They were ready and they were out in the field.
Vince Maidens: Yep.
Josh: I mean, the more time you spend out in the field, you're going increase your chances. It's yeah.
Vince Maidens: That's right. None of this comes for free, right? You are paying for it in time and effort.
Josh: And gear.
Vince Maidens: And cash. Yeah. Yeah. There's all that. You're, you're paying for it.
Vince Maidens: That's all there is to But, you know, it, it comes with the, uh, the territory, right?
Josh: Yeah, absolutely.
Vince Maidens: You, you get yourself in the situation and know what to do and take advantage of that situation. You will make an incredible image. Right. And, but it, it, it all comes down to all those factors.
Josh: And you know, when you take a great image, you just know it. Like when some of my best images I know right then and there, I'm like, oh, this was special, right?
Vince Maidens: Yeah. Yeah.
Josh: Rarely do you go back to your computer and you're calling through 2000 images and you're almost falling asleep. And then it's like, oh, there it is. There's the, doesn't normally, that doesn't normally happen.
Vince Maidens: Almost.
Vince Maidens: The best naps I ever have are whenever editing images. So
Josh: Oh, I know. know. I used to like doing it a lot more. Now I just find it just an annoying, it's an annoyance.
Vince Maidens: yeah. It's the worst part of the process. It's the worst part.
Josh: I agree.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: I love printing when I hit the print button and playing around with that.
Vince Maidens: It's like, yeah, yeah. Oh, print.
Josh: But culling is even worse than processing. And then the processing piece is just, you know, I spend less and less time with it these days. Years ago, would spend sometimes 30, 40 minutes on the image.
Josh: I'm like, what hell am I doing?
Vince Maidens: Yeah, yeah.
Josh: I can't even tell what I'm changing anymore. It's done. Just, you know, save as.
Vince Maidens: Especially you're shooting local, right? If you're shooting local, there's no excuse to spend that kind of time on it. Just dump the image and do it again.
Josh: Absolutely.
Josh: Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, exactly. Well, we're coming up on the, well, we've done this an hour. God, that went quick, didn't it?
Josh: Oh, wow.
Josh: It did.
Vince Maidens: So what are you working on there, young man?
Josh: Hey, young man. I haven't been called young man in a long time.
Vince Maidens: Yeah, yeah, sure.
Josh: I'll take it. Especially when I have, I'm sharing like blue oyster cult records on my story.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: People think I'm like 85 years old, but, uh,
Vince Maidens: Yeah, I know. I look at that. He's got vinyl and their blue Easter coat. Okay.
Josh: That's right. Not two recipes for youth. But I'll tell you what, it's interesting. I haven't traveled a lot in a couple years. So I bought my house. This was during COVID out on the Eastern Shore.
Josh: And I've been spending a lot of time. I had to do a lot of work at the house and all these projects and stuff.
Vince Maidens: Hmm.
Josh: So I just started shooting in my backyard, essentially, and spending most of my time shooting there within like a 45-minute drive distance, right? And I've been doing that for the past couple years.
Josh: But I need to start... traveling again. My last international trip, I came to the Shetlands actually, and this was back in 2023, already a couple of years ago.
Vince Maidens: Cool.
Josh: So that's right, Kerm and we met up with Rebecca Nason, who used to be a judge on bird photographer of the year, actually.
Vince Maidens: You and Kerm, right? Yeah.
Vince Maidens: Oh, yeah.
Josh: That was the last trip I actually went on where I was shooting internationally. So I need to plan something. Kerem just went down actually to shoot the Pumas in Paris Del Pine.
Vince Maidens: I saw that.
Josh: Yeah. And I told Kerem, I said, we got we got to get something together. So, uh, I'm hoping this summer, I'm going to be in, I'll be bird fair. So I'm going to be traveling.
Vince Maidens: Yep.
Josh: So hopefully we'll be able to meet up there, Vince. So maybe Scomer, I can get over to Scomer then up there or something.
Vince Maidens: We'll see you. We're going to be there. Yeah, yeah.
Josh: So I think that's going to be my next international trip. And up until that point, I'm just going to shoot locally and looking forward to, we've got a lot of ducks coming down here the Chesapeake Bay for winter.
Vince Maidens: Cool. We get a lot of migratory stuff there, don't you?
Josh: I'll try to shoot some. tons. Yeah. A lot of, lot of waterfowl they're hunted there.
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: It's a big hunting area, so it's harder to get shots, but we have a few areas where they're park-like settings.
Vince Maidens: Mm-hmm.
Josh: So it's pretty easy to get, get close to them and get some shots. Shorties will be down. you know, that's, that's always fun to shoot them.
Vince Maidens: Oh,
Josh: Maybe we'll get some snowies. We had a really good eruption year recently. uh, yeah, so owls and, owls and ducks. And then, you know, before you know it, spring will be here. you I'll be,
Josh: able to get out there and see what's moving along. Behind my house, I got about five or six common loons, non-breeding plumage, but I've got hundreds of buffleheads right now. And I've had some, I've had some scoters and stuff moving through.
Vince Maidens: nice. They're beautiful.
Josh: I've got this little float blind, which I pay too much money for. I got it for, it's a Norwegian company.
Vince Maidens: Trigopan? Yeah.
Josh: That's it. Yeah.
Josh: And, know, so I've got that and, you know, put my waders on and just go out and I have a lot of fun with that. So I'm looking forward to doing that over the next couple of weeks, but that's about it.
Vince Maidens: And well, I guess you don't blow up your spot. Just guys, if you're listening to this at some point, Josh and Rob are going to announce something that'll be pretty cool.
Vince Maidens: I'm going to guess. I'm just imagining what it is given the fact that the history, but yeah, I suspect it'll be quite good and good for the community, especially for people that will be looking to try new things.
Josh: especially for people to try new things.
Vince Maidens: Let's put it that way.
Josh: That's a good summary, Vince. That's a great summary.
Vince Maidens: Good, good. I used to like that contest a lot. So if bring something back close to that, I'd be quite happy.
Josh: Yeah, it's interesting because when it comes to that type of shooting, you're more limited in terms of the photographers that are out there, right, that shoot that type of work. Now, if you look at, for instance, I don't want to name other competitions, but there's certain other competitions out there that focus just more on...
Josh: the standard kind of documentarian literal type. There's a lot more photos out there, right?
Vince Maidens: Yep.
Josh: So it's striking that balance between getting good amount of images coming in, but at the same time, you want to get them that, you know, images that are pushing the boundaries, pushing the envelope that are artistic, but it's just a smaller portion, right?
Vince Maidens: Yeah.
Josh: So you want to be as inclusive to as many photographers as possible, but you also want to have the gold standard when it comes to quality. So that's always a balance.
Vince Maidens: Exactly. And, you know, I can guarantee one, I'll support it myself. And two, I know quite a few other people that will definitely as well.
Josh: Appreciate it.
Vince Maidens: So we will cross promote as required because there's a lot of room for quality out there because there's not a lot of it.
Vince Maidens: So let's make the room support what is going to drive the quality right and i really like to see that so josh thank you very much for being the uh the sacrificial lamb here
Josh: My pleasure. No, this was great.
Josh: It was great to catch up to Vince.
Vince Maidens: yeah yeah it's been far too long and uh very much looking forward to the bird fair okay well thanks everyone and uh hope you enjoyed and and i'm gonna hit the stop button now and and have a quick chat with josh and off we go
Josh: Yeah, me too. Me too.
Josh: Cheers.
Vince Maidens: See you.
