Transcript
Speaker: You know that thing you love that your friends and family don't want to hear about anymore? Tell it to us, Patty and Charlotte. We want to learn all about your weird and wild obsessions or your perfectly normal hobbies that you've taken just a little too far.
Speaker: We want to dabble in your curious interests. Can we interest you in today's episode?
Speaker: all day and all night and then it's working because of that i turned i let it like just charge and charge and charge and this morning it finally turned on and it was only at 65 percent so I let it charge for the rest of the day what can you is your work going to send you a new computer because it's that sounds like it's my personal computer oh it's your personal oh yeah yeah yeah Are you going to buy yourself a new computer as your own boss?
Speaker: ah Yeah, exactly. i am kind of thinking like, is it time? Do I just get a non-Mac computer? Because I don't need all that Mac offers me.
Speaker: Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not taking advantage of what you would need a Mac for. Should I just get a cheapo whatever else? but I don't know. I feel like the the other computers, I don't know how to operate them as well. yeah that's a good point. It's been too long. Yes.
Speaker: yeah Like I still can, but if I... like try to use and an Android phone or like, um I mean, I got a the Nook like tablet, which is basically a Lenovo tablet.
Speaker: And I'm like, what is happening? How, ah Luckily, i only use it for two things, just like two apps on there. But for the longest time, I was like, where is this app? The one of the two that I use.
Speaker: Why can't I find it? Yeah, there's too many buttons. There's a lot of there's a lot of things to click. I still remember the first time I ever tried using a smartphone. It was Chris's smartphone. And I was so drunk because I had he that was the night he picked me up when I attempted to run the marathon for the second time that first year like, and it didn't work out. And I like called him from the airport and was like, my flight didn't leave. And he's like, I'm coming to get you. And we went out and we went to a party or something to a bar. And like, we were so like, I was very drunk. And then he was driving me home. And his friend was texting and he's like, can you just text him back? And I could not.
Speaker: figure out how to use a smartphone like an apple an iphone like i kept like sending like one letter and so i couldn't figure out if it was that it was that difficult or i was that drunk and so then every time people talk about how easy tablets are for elderly to use because it's just so like user friendly i always think of that like that i was like i couldn't figure it out Yeah, so that happens to me more than I'd like to ah admit these days where it's just like something that should be very simple and it takes me about an hour and a half to figure out how to do. ah Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And then I'm just like, oh, I'm really glad nobody's watching me do this. Yeah. Because I don't want anyone to know. Like the other day I was working in an Excel spreadsheet sharing my screen with someone at work and she was like, oh, that's funny that you do it that way. And I was just like, this is exactly what I hate. I don't want people seeing how i do things. Like,
Speaker: Don't judge me. But then you can't, like, you can't learn how to do it any better or different because it's like, okay, I'm never going to let anybody see me do this. So ah I just will always do it the wrong way, I'm sure.
Speaker: is fine. say it and Save myself in the embarrassment. Yeah. And I have stress streams about it. Like the other day, i I was having a familiar stress stream, which is trying to make an outgoing call from a conference room, and I cannot do it.
Speaker: ah that's your stress yeah Mine is usually i'm in a class and I haven't been going to class up until like the end. Yes. Although, yeah. But yesterday I had an extensive dream about dry shampoo.
Speaker: i don'tten I don't know. It was extensive. There are like two steps to dry shampooing your hair. i was like trying to find the right kind of a dry shampoo and some of the dry shampoo weirdly was wet.
Speaker: So. mr
Speaker: but Like, so do I have to get it dry first or. yeah There were a lot of other plot lines too. So that was just one of the many things, but it was the one that stuck the most.
Speaker: I was in a meeting today with my colleague and she like sent me an email ahead of time and was like, let's also talk about this, you know, and added at an attachment. And she's like, PS, you were in my, you played a pivotal role in my dream this morning. Yeah. It involved Shakespeare and singing. and so then when we like joined the meeting, she was like, you were wonderful in this. Like you you said that the audition for Shakespeare play had gone so well and you were so excited and you started to like talk in a British accent and you were singing some Shakespeare music, like songs from Shakespeare. i don't know. She's like, but it was great. And I was like, wow, thank you.
Speaker: It's so weird because it's like that, yeah you know, a dream has frankly nothing to do with the person who's in the dream. Yeah. but I represented talent.
Speaker: yeah Excellent. Thank you for associating me with talent in your subconscious. Yeah. I'm sure that if nothing else, it was just because she was like, oh, Patty will be back tomorrow. You know, like if any, if, if anything.
Speaker: a Well, should we officially start our recording? Hi, Charlotte. Yeah. yes hi patty we're just to chatt chit chatt chi chatting away the beauty of yeah it being just the two of us although we love our guests it's also quite hot out where i am and where you are yeah when it's hot out my brain is not correct no No, it's hot. It's later than what we usually do for a record. Yeah.
Speaker: All those things. Yeah, but I'm happy to have a Just Us episode so we can catch up. Yeah, me too Especially i am just back from a week away.
Speaker: and man, a Monday after a vacation is really... depressing so it was nice to have this to look forward to even though it was like a reschedule because of technical issues on my end well but you got an extra day to just decompress then did you so did you have a wonderful time you were like by a lake right Yes, a lovely time. Michigan, um kayaking, morning stretching. i even did, I decided to do a plank challenge. So i would hold a plank every every day for a little bit longer each day and went to the beach one day and jumped over waves, which
Speaker: So I was – when we went to the beach, we were on Lake Michigan, and the waves were great, like constant. And you can kind of walk – you can walk into the beach. It's not very – into the water. It's not very deep.
Speaker: So when I was on my knees in the water, the waves looked huge. And so I was jumping over them, and it was really fun. And then when I saw a video from the beach of me jumping over – nothing.
Speaker: I was like, wait, where the waves? I was jumping over waves. And everyone was like, oh, we thought you were just kind of like bobbing and jumping. Like, didn't know that there were waves there. And I was like, no, there were definitely waves. So it makes you feel kind of crazy. No, no. It's under surface waves. there which you had to this is really one of those. You had to be there. You had to be there. Yeah. Yeah, it's like i how how I have defined ab muscles underneath the layer of fat on my I know they're there. i can feel them in interior interior. Yeah.
Speaker: Trying to find their way to fresh air someday. hu Just keep watering them and giving them sunlight.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Not helping my abs at all. i I also had ice cream almost every day. Went to like an ice cream shop every day. And that was so nice.
Speaker: so What flavors did you get? I really like, I always think it's Mackinac fudge. It's not. And so I did incorrectly order that.
Speaker: um It's Moose Tracks. I love Moose Tracks. It's got vanilla ice cream, kind of a fudgy swirl, peanut butter cups, which are like the mousse tracks throughout.
Speaker: Just really good. Really good. And then I did one day do a standard ah mint chocolate chip, which is also good. Yeah. my God.
Speaker: Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So then it was water time, family time, ice cream time. Yep. Played lots of games, um had lots of good meals out and at home, took naps, read a book.
Speaker: It was great. It was, yeah, it was very, kayaked every day, which was other than the last two days because of the bad weather, just the weather.
Speaker: And smoke was really bad there from the wildfires. Not nearly as bad as Chicago. So that was good for those who came from Chicago. But um yeah, just kind of that was a little bit of a bummer. But it was nice that we had a jigsaw puzzle. So we all worked on that. That sounds like the perfect, perfect summer vacation to me.
Speaker: It was really good. i was emotional the day before. Like our last final day, i was emotional leaving. And then I was emotional again today when I had to get back to work to the point where we like on my morning, you know, no input walk, I was doing the like check in with your body. How do you feel? and I was like, There are tears right at the edge. They're going to come out at any moment. And um the night before, I wasn't feeling great and I had a hard time sleeping. And I was like, maybe I'll get food poisoning and then I won't have to do work tomorrow.
Speaker: ah like i think that's a bad sign. i am going to say Yes. wow that's That's the Sunday scariest, scariest.
Speaker: yeah Yes. Although I felt like that before, you know, where you're like, God, if I just broke my leg, I could hang out for a long time at home, not go to work.
Speaker: Yeah. and we're that's not That's not great. No, it's really not. Yeah. Oh my god. ah yeah, that's happened a lot to me.
Speaker: And that's actually probably gotten me into some jobs that I would not would not have gotten into otherwise. i wouldn't have done it if it wasn't going there to leave a different job.
Speaker: Yeah, like if it didn't get bad enough. so yeah Anywho, how are you? i Pretty good. I actually went to just for like a couple days, a lake near here, Grand Lakes. I had friends in town who were going to their family's house there.
Speaker: And so he invited me and Adam to come. And so we got to have ice cream. Ice cream. i I had the almond joy flavored. So it's like coconut ice cream. And then basically that's the part I care about, the coconut.
Speaker: aha And we did. Have you ever heard of wake surfing? Okay. No. Tell me. I had never heard of it either. So it's basically like board, I realized, but I don't actually know what that is.
Speaker: It's basically like, okay, there's a boat and then it's got, you know, the propeller in the back and it creates these waves that then you have like a little, like a little surfboard smaller than, you know, one you take out into the ocean, but then you surf the wave that's created by the boat.
Speaker: Wow. Yeah. It's pretty cool looking. So are you pretty close to the boat? Yeah, you're very close to the boat. You hold on to like um like a rope or something at first just to get up.
Speaker: And then, you know, you surf the wave and then it kind of propels you along with the boat. And then you can drop the rope.
Speaker: Now, I... did not get up on the board yet, ah but, but it takes a while to learn. Yeah. I would imagine. So i would have been so impressed. And, and here I'm like, wait, why would you ever let go of the rope? How are you going to stay up? That's amazing.
Speaker: yeah It looks pretty cool. And I guess it's a way to surf without, going to place that has an ocean and waves and learning how and getting surfboard and being afraid of sharks. All of the things that go with that. Yeah, mean, you do need to like rent a boat, I guess.
Speaker: Sure. and then you know then the rest you just have to figure out how to do we have pictures of me a lot of them i am like blowing air violently out of my mouth because it's just like i'm making a lot of effort look like a blowfish but now that's awesome and did you enjoy it was it was it fun Yeah, it was really fun.
Speaker: Cool. Yeah, I was really into it. Oh, that's great. So do you think you would try it again? i would definitely try it again ah just so that I could learn how to stand on the board.
Speaker: Once you can stand, it seems like, okay, you're pretty good, at least. Like that's maybe the hardest part. then yeah Then when you're good at it, it just seems really easy.
Speaker: to do that right then it's just a matter of figuring out the physics of like oh wait where's that where's that wave coming from let me check that one and then are people trying because I remember when we would go tubing there would always be some friends who would want to try to get you to fly off you know like the person driving the boat then would be like oh you're having fun and now I'm gonna up it so that you fall Well, it was a hired hired guy okay driving the boat. ye so he his job is to make sure you don't get killed.
Speaker: Yeah, leave a review. then that you have fun. Yeah, leave a good review. So it's really just one person doing it at a time. So that's the one of the weird things about it is that everybody's watching you. Oh, yeah, yeah. See, that's what I don't like about bowling.
Speaker: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But this is more intense. But then there's, I mean... Luckily, there were a bunch of us who had never done it before. Two of them are surfers, and then the other two were me and Adam. and But Adam got up on like a second try and did really well.
Speaker: The two surfers, they they they had a harder time. So that made me feel better, at least. I mean, one of them did get up and and did like really well, but it's just not quite the same as surfing. it's like a different set of skills to get up on the board.
Speaker: But I did feel better because like the 12 year old daughter was like, it took me several summers to learn how to do this. I was like, thank you. And then she got up on her board and was like, amazing.
Speaker: Wow. Yeah. I really want to become a boat person. But there's like a lot of types of people that I want to become. But that's one of them. Yes.
Speaker: um So yeah, I was thinking like if anybody's a boat person and wants to come on the show and talk to us about becoming one. um And then invite you on their boat as our as our homework. Yeah.
Speaker: I also want to learn to to make dioramas. If anybody's a diorama ramma dirama maker. Oh, wait. So who does that that's not in third grade?
Speaker: Adults do it. Yeah. Okay. We went to Meow Wolf recently in Denver and there's a whole, there's like two rooms, one in particular that has a whole bunch of dioramas and they're like hollowed out stereos or other electronics. Okay. It's very cool.
Speaker: So it's essentially a diorama is a small, like it's a space in miniature. Yeah. Yeah. And okay I think artists will do it.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. Then I take that back. I, I do take that back because have, did you ever go to the Thorn Room in, at the Art Institute of Chicago?
Speaker: No. That's the one where it's all super small, almost dollhouses, but there are no dolls. but like And they're of homes of different eras, like oh wow across the world and like Victorian and, you know, English cottage or French provincial, blah, blah, blah. But all incredibly small and...
Speaker: very cool I mean that was really fun to to go into as a kid yeah I would be into that that sounds amazing Also, there is a show. So I used to watch 90 Day Fiance. you know that?
Speaker: um I have heard of it. Okay. So it's a TLC show, The Learning Channel. And it is, you know, people who fall in love with, they're like in two different countries. And so 90 Day Fiance, because in the U.S. it's like you get a 90 Day visa Fiance visa.
Speaker: And so there's this woman, I don't watch it anymore because I don't have cable, but I do still listen to multiple podcasts that recap it. And so there's currently a woman from Brazil who is in the U.S. right now, and she's all about manifesting. And she so she she will buy things in miniature of like what she wants. So she wanted like a really nice bathroom. So she got a miniature toilet.
Speaker: And she lives with a man who is a minimalist, but not in an attractive way, in the kind of way where he puts just a board on yoga blocks and calls that a table.
Speaker: So so it's it's that's one of their points of friction. But... That seems like it could be a huge point of friction if they stay married.
Speaker: but is Okay, so they get married for 90 days. No, they have 90 days to get married. like So they are able to come over on a fiancé visa. And within that 90-day period, you have to get married.
Speaker: And then... o the show is basically just looking for people with this type of situation. And then do they like fly one of the people over to the other country? Do they, what support do they provide? Pretty much nothing. Yeah. They put a camera in front of them and they provide them with no support, including like not looking into the background of people. There's one guy who was on the show when I was still watching. So at least,
Speaker: probably five years plus ago. And he's currently featured on a show called worst X's ever or something like that. But this is where you're like, Oh no, you're thinking like worst X, maybe they cheated on you or like moved out of the house and,
Speaker: left you with the rent you know like to have to pay the rent i don't even know no this man was abusive and maybe trigger warning was responsible for the death of a child o and he was a character on the show and like they all of this was available you know his his record it's Yeah. So um they provide no support is what I'm trying to say. But they do. And so they just are looking for people that are in this situation. And then they have a ton of spinoffs, one of them being 90 Days the Other Way. And that's for people who move to from the U.S. to the country where their person lives to go live there.
Speaker: Okay. Huh. I... i I think that your way of like watching the show where you listen to podcasts about it, but you can't actually watch it is probably a pretty enjoyable way. it's so enjoyable.
Speaker: Yeah. For a while there, it was getting to be too much because not only would I watch the show, i would then watch, they would have a pillow talk version of it where it's people that are not, that have been on previous seasons or are on on spinoffs watching the show.
Speaker: and so then you're like, kind of watching it again but then with their commentary and then i would still listen to at least two podcasts that would recap it whoa wow yeah so now i'm just down to three podcasts that recap it it's no biggie um And then, but then do you watch the spinoffs too?
Speaker: Or did you? used to, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because, you know, they don't overlap. So it's kind of like one finishes and then you need to have something to fill that spot. And so you're like, oh, okay, cool.
Speaker: Now watch Happily Ever After, which is after they've gotten married, you're following them and seeing how how it went. Is it? Each episode is one couple, 30 day, 90 day.
Speaker: no No, the whole season's following. Yeah, their 90 day journey. And so you have a couple, like maybe five different couples that you're watching. And so, you know, you go from a couple to couple in each episode. So you're kind of checking like,
Speaker: Oh, what's up with them? And wow, they hate each other. why are they even together? Or like these people have been together for six years and they've never met. Or there was a catfish situation where it was like, oh, my God, Yolanda, how did you not know this man never has done video chat with you? Every photo he sends you is so obviously a model. And he tells you he's from Manchester, but his accent is clearly not English. like It was wild.
Speaker: Oh my God. Yeah. This is giving me some some flashbacks to time I had a Zoom date with somebody during COVID. And I think he was is British. And it was good we had a Zoom date over COVID because he told me he was like,
Speaker: I don't know something about a court date for throwing a brick through his ex's car window. oh ah mean, situation. Can he be like, and I was right.
Speaker: I was in the right. Like you threw a brick through a car window. know. Oh, And then i i would tell people that story and they'd be like, well, i guess at least she was honest. I'm like, yeah yeah. I mean, the real reason that I was like, I don't really want to see you again is because he also couldn't listen to anything I said.
Speaker: Like he'd ask me a question, I would start responding and he would just like be doing something else. Yeah. so He's like, ah cool, I forgot that you could see what I'm doing. I'm just waiting for you to stop talking so I can talk again.
Speaker: Yes, because the things that I have to say are so attractive to you about my legal history. Let me tell you what else I'm going to be going to court for.
Speaker: god that's what thank goodness it was the zoom one because that would have been probably a first date at a bar or a coffee shop right like oh boy ah Man, oh man, I don't, I don't miss first dates. They were very entertaining and I treated it like a job. Like I had a spreadsheet. So I was like, okay, I'm go to see this person on that day. This is what I'm, I wore, you know, so I made sure I didn't wear the same thing again. And it was always just like Monday through Thursday only. And it would always be a drink. um
Speaker: But yeah, first dates. This is why you're project manager. And also why I do not date anymore. Like it's awful. ah Well, I mean, you don't have to have a spreadsheet. No, I know. But because I approached it that way, I'm like, uh-uh.
Speaker: Like, oh, isn't dating the absolute worst? It's just like work. Because I treat it like work. Exactly. Oh, man.
Speaker: But the truth is, it's it sucks, whether you have a spreadsheet or not sometimes. Right, right. Oh, my goodness. um Well, that kind of brings us to, not totally, but the novel. We are recapping the homework we gave ourselves the last time that we were on with Marissa Joy and she was just going to be publishing her self-publishing her debut novel, a Family Affair.
Speaker: oh Oh, my gosh. And we both read it. Yeah. Yes, we did. and to remind people, Marissa was in the book project with me, which is a Lighthouse of Denver like writing program. And this was the book she was working on then. and it's so it's it's gone through.
Speaker: like some changes since I last read part of it. And so I was very excited to read it. And she just published it May 20th of this year, 2026.
Speaker: Very exciting. Yes. And you mentioned that she shared some of um kind of the stats of the book since, since published.
Speaker: Yeah. So she emailed some of us who were in that same program and said that this was the like the week that it came out, that it was the number one new release in its category on Amazon. Amazing. Which is amazing.
Speaker: That's so good. Yeah. And I mentioned to you, um if you can believe it, we talked even before we started recording ah that when I finished it, I went on to Goodreads and I was so excited, a that it was on Goodreads. And there were, I was leaving a rating and a review and there were already some. So that was really cool too.
Speaker: And there's some already on Amazon. so if anybody does join in and read the book, you can give a review, which makes a huge difference, especially on Amazon. because I think a lot of people look at those, those ratings and those like lists of bestsellers in different categories.
Speaker: And I have not bought anything besides her book from Amazon for probably like two years. So Amazon would not let me leave a review. They didn't spend like $50.
Speaker: So leave a review for me if you are able. Yeah. Charlotte loves it too. Charlotte, who is noted in the acknowledgements, which was so fun to see.
Speaker: It was so fun. Yeah, it's she references the we had sort of an accountability practice where we sent each other selfies when we were writing. Very cool.
Speaker: And was very good for for just keeping keeping it up. So like on a daily basis. So there was a while when I had really hundreds and hundreds of selfies of Marissa.
Speaker: That's so cool too. Like if somebody would have gone through or if your phone cataloged, like your number one favorite person based on the number of photos, I'd be like Marissa.
Speaker: Yep. Yep. So many. Yeah. Yeah, it was just, it was really helpful for actually writing daily too. Yes. It's part of that checklist, right? It's like being able to check something off. Take that photo of yourself. It's like, all right, did it.
Speaker: Yeah. And like a little reward for yourself too. Just you get to send it off to somebody who's gonna be like, ya yeah, you. Yeah. Well, so did you read this book while you were on vacation? did I did. i started the book while on vacation. um and so an interesting book to read around a multi-generation and your family for multiple reasons. But overall, i have to say, i really liked this book.
Speaker: I really liked it. yeah yeah i agree i well and we should say i think we'll probably have some spoilers today yeah so um but which we could try not to have too many big spoilers yeah i don't know but um yeah related to i read it like over the course of three days maybe yes and Yeah, I never felt bored. No. And I often feel bored when reading. Or like, I just, um you know, I get taken out of the action by something. But this book, I just kept going and going and going.
Speaker: And I thought about it when I wasn't there and I've continued to think about it. Like it has stuck with me. And that's what I tried to write in my review where it's like, I loved that there were multiple characters. I could relate to parts of all of them, but also couldn't relate to parts of them in that they made me then think about Things that I would have thought were so black and white for myself from another perspective that really was eye-opening
Speaker: and and thought-provoking and kind of disturbing in a good way. Yeah, I totally agree. So for anybody who, probably a lot of people have not read the book because it just came out, but it's told from the from three points of view. The point of view of a couple, a married couple, who got together when the the wife got, well, she wasn't wife at the time. She was 16 and got pregnant and then ends up having
Speaker: another child and they get married and they've been married like this whole time until they're in their mid thirties. And the kids are like the oldest kid is on his way to college. And then the husband of the couple meets a woman and starts having an affair.
Speaker: So it's Joyce and Michael are the couple. And then Ava is the woman who he has the affair with. that a spoiler? Nah, not really, I guess. So it's told from their three points of view, which is totally like what you're saying, kind of just messes with your mind because think we're used to to feeling like, okay,
Speaker: i am on this person's side or maybe these two people's side, but not all three people's side. And then it's really weird and confusing when you can understand everybody's point of of view yeah and empathize with everybody.
Speaker: Yes. And they're doing stuff that you're like, I want to hate you for this. And I still get it Right. And even like in one moment, I'll be like, stop. That's so ridiculous. Oh my gosh, what you're saying, you know, you're so naive or or blinded by lust or whatever. And then in the next paragraph, I'm like, oh no, you're not.
Speaker: i totally get it. Oh my goodness. What? why do How do I get this? how Yeah, it just... She really, really wrote such rich characters. So believable. Like when she had mentioned to us that people had said the dialogue is so believable. Oh my goodness. Yes.
Speaker: Yes. Yes. I believed all of them. and felt I could relate to all of them, even though I can't, you know, like it's not, it's not relatable to my life directly.
Speaker: Um, oh It just, yeah, it really, i'm like, i have still been just thinking about different parts of it that really brought up things for me that I was not expecting. Yeah.
Speaker: I keep kind of having a sense of like the mood, ah just like a feeling of the mood and the ending And just kind of like a complicated, like it's, is it happy? Is it not happy? It's kind of all of the above. Yeah.
Speaker: Right. And that that is life. Like, it is so complicated. Yes, their story in particular is complicated because of the way that they got together and started and some of the little twists and turns and and race coming into it. Like, man, the even i was saying to my sister,
Speaker: This book had made me think like, here they are, these 30-somethings now that even at a Dave & Buster's for their son's high school graduation, they're playing this role of, oh, we know that this Black woman who's coming in as you know the manager, she's looking at us with such pride because, wow, here we are.
Speaker: you know, a family that made it and stuck together and that Michael gets all the praise for being a black a father who stuck around.
Speaker: And that that was such a huge part of their story and their dynamic and that Joyce as a you know,
Speaker: having been a teenage mother got either ignored because it's like, oh, just another teenage mom, or got the shame that comes with that, whereas he gets commended for sticking around for that same situation. And how that became just so their dynamic that here he is, she sees him as this martyr who she's constantly trying to repay.
Speaker: for staying with her and he sees himself as, well, I need to keep being this person that then they lose complete track of well, who are you? And of course you want to make decisions that are good for the people that you love, but at what expense?
Speaker: Yeah. And remember that even those choices are still your choice, even though he's like, kind of starts to think, well, I'm stuck in this situation. this is what I have to do rather than like, it's a choice I'm continuously making stay.
Speaker: Yeah. Very like subtle and complex like emotionally in terms of the their motivations and and and then on ava's end just like you know the things that she does are propelled by grief and it's entirely believable yeah so some kind of awful things you you really feel like
Speaker: Well, i get it. You know, she's she's grieving. Right. And that she's making decisions to try and gain back some power or have some control. and For the most, no, I would say, I was going to say for the most part, but throughout, it's always with willing participants. So she's making decisions that maybe I wouldn't make, or I would say, oh, this isn't a healthy way to get through your grief, but it's working for her. And until really Michael, there is no harm.
Speaker: Well, I guess I'll just stick with, I mean, because there could be harm, right? But but that they they are all willing participants. Right, right.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because it demonstrates ways to work through grief that are not, like you said, the the so-called like healthy ways, but when it's so...
Speaker: big and overwhelming, you of go to whatever's available, whatever's going to do what you need it to do. And yeah, that's what you feel is I really loved the different relationships represented in mothers and daughters.
Speaker: Yeah. So Joyce grew up in a very conservative household. Her parents were really strict. I can't remember if they were religious.
Speaker: think they're religious and have a lot of money. Yeah, right. Right. And so her mother was so ashamed of of Joyce and and very strict. Like she she wanted to control and make sure that she acted the right way and did the right things and represented her and her family correctly. And so when she got pregnant, the shame was just through the roof. Yeah.
Speaker: and And it feels like even as an adult, she continues to be really distant, cold, and judging.
Speaker: And then there's Ava and her mother, Irene, i believe. think so and man ah there there's a point there's a part i'm gonna see if i can find it in my notes um ava said that she was showered with a consistent unbreakable love no judgment about her choices um Even when she's warning her, you know, when when Irene finds out that Ava is seeing a married man, she warns her, but there's there's no judgment. And the fact that Ava knows that there's no judgment from her mother, and even then, eventually, her father, was crazy.
Speaker: and believable and such a juxtaposition from what Joyce had experienced growing up.
Speaker: And then for Joyce and Jesse, so Joyce has a daughter, Jesse, um her second child, and she is not not as
Speaker: She's a little bit more casual with her than maybe Joyce's mother is with Joyce, but she is so controlling. So there's a lot of judgment of don't get in trouble. Don't go out and do anything wrong.
Speaker: Just wait until you're old enough. You know, like trying to protect her from making the same decisions that she made so that she can have the life that Joyce didn't get to make. And how their relationship kind of shifts through this evolution of Joyce coming to terms with her own situation.
Speaker: and how the way that she sees herself is really a large influence on the relationship she allows herself to have with her daughter.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. I did love all the the mother and daughter relationships and then how... It's just Irene and is like the mother that I think everybody in the book would love to have.
Speaker: She's like a warm, friendly woman who's Caribbean and just like... accepts everybody and doesn't appear to have really any sort of insecurities that because i mean that's that's one of the things that's gonna make a ah mom or somebody be judgmental potentially of their child is like some sort of insecurities of like i didn't raise them well enough or i didn't do enough to protect them or i need to
Speaker: to be somehow different. There's my child's a reflection on me. yeah and so like for her to be so secure in herself that she's like, okay, aye trust you, my daughter to go do what you need to do Just be safe.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. And that, like, we will be a soft landing place for you, which... So I was just amazed at how much of that kind of, like, those layers are in there with so many of the characters where none of them is really just one one thing. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah. these layers There was also just such a lack of each of them processing their own stuff and an inability to communicate. So with Joyce, you know, her shame, her idea of what had happened and And and what their dynamic was. And then with Michael and him coming to terms with, you know, each of them had lost what they thought their dreams when they were so young. And so they both felt like they had such promise. Joyce wanted to go to l L.A. and she wanted to be an actor and and perform. And um Michael had a scholarship to play. Was it basketball?
Speaker: Mm-hmm. At UNC, which, you don't turn that down. Right. And he had... Or was it him or his son who's gone UNC? Anyway. Right, right. Yeah, i don't recall.
Speaker: but But that he was, you know, and he... grew up without a father and and he didn't have money and yet he was going to be able to go to college and he wanted to become a star and of his own and that they both had to give that up and so the resentment towards each other just towards life in general, the all of the higher level of importance that then they were putting on their children or higher levels of pressure that they were putting on their children to ensure that they didn't lose out on every opportunity that was afforded to them. And you can do whatever you want, but there will be consequences that Michael and Aaron would always say that to each other. And how that came around back to the father was very interesting.
Speaker: But that that they hadn't really processed. And then Ava, same thing. It's like, you know, she had this horrible loss and and what she thought her life was going to be and hadn't yet processed really what that looked like and was in the process of it Process of processing.
Speaker: But that only a year had passed. But really with with Joyce and Michael, that they just kept kind of talking around what it was that they needed to say. And in large part because they were trying so hard not to hurt each other.
Speaker: And yet that ended up causing just so much more hurt and, and, and not being able to truly tell each other what they wanted, but in part because they didn't, they didn't know themselves. You know, it's like, you can't communicate what you don't yet know.
Speaker: Right. And then it's so interesting to then read it from the different characters' perspectives because then you see one scene where Joyce is like, ah, we have come to this kind of understanding between us. And then the next scene, you you see Michael's point of view and it's like,
Speaker: yeah still thinking about that woman. Yeah. Yeah. And, and how here it was like when they met up in the grocery store that one night and such a moment, you know, and it's like here, it felt as though they were both finally on the same page and willing to meet each other. You know, there's, there's so much of that where it's like, okay, I'm going to try to put out an olive branch, but then the other person's not ready. And that just felt so real too, where you're like, because you're putting out an olive branch they're reacting in a way that's like oh now you want to do that you know but they both met on the same page and they were both willing to like play ball and yet when they left that interaction you know the next day she's like okay and so his pain is gone and he's like that brought my pain to the surface and it's like damn you know like
Speaker: If only that, yeah, just so many times that they were just missing each other and and not asking for what they needed, not able to give the other person what they needed and kind of reverting back to old dynamics that that they had just were well-worn.
Speaker: Yeah, and it's interesting also the whole kind of role of like family secrets because there's one family secret that they keep hidden from, they like try to keep it hidden from everybody, but like Joyce and Michael know, other people know, and so it just sort of festers and becomes this big issue That is very, very much like just what happens with family secrets where it's like people can tell that there's something.
Speaker: Yeah. Like within the family, it's like you can sense that even if you have no idea what it is or why. yeah So I thought felt like that was very, very realistic too.
Speaker: Yes. Well, and when Simone, who is the new wife, they get married during the book of um Michael's best friend, Malik. When Simone at the end says...
Speaker: oh, we all knew you were miserable or we could all see you, this, this facade. I was like, what's really, but then it it makes, cause exactly what you're saying. Like you think that you're hiding it, but it's like, even if I don't know what's going on, I know something's going on.
Speaker: Yeah, I thought that was very interesting because then you kind of remember that you're reading this from these three people's points of view and the two people who are in the married couple have their point of view that Of what they think everybody thinks about them. Right. And then you hear what people actually think about them.
Speaker: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, of course they think they're doing a good job because otherwise they would do better. You know, they would change it up. Yeah. Also, what do you think about all of the sex issues?
Speaker: Oh my gosh. So well-written. it was not overkill by any, like on, well, okay. Says me, right? That's whatever, like overkill, whatever. But I was expecting it to be, I knew, i knew she had told us this wasn't an erotica book, but that there was sex and it was going to be explicit and it was going to be there. There wasn't going to be like, and then they went under the sheets. um So I don't know why I was totally surprised, but I was surprised that there wasn't more. And i did feel like
Speaker: all of it was so necessary for the story. Like it really added such an important element to, again, the believability of, of the decisions that were being made of the additional layer of emotions that were involved and so well-written.
Speaker: What did you think? I agree that it's all needed scenes, right? And then you kind of get the sense that the whole book, it's about a lot of things, but it's about sex in a lot of ways.
Speaker: um Cause I guess, did we mention it's called a family affair? And so the word affair in the title. Yeah. So you already get that sense. But then like for so many people, that's so key. I mean, it starts with a teen pregnancy. Right. So it's like.
Speaker: what sets everything off. But I, I think I was expecting more sex because, you know, we had talked with Marissa about erotica. Yeah. And so then that almost made it like, cause the, the beginning, there's some sex scenes that are not fully like sex scenes. It's like, Oh wait, what's going to happen? Oh, are they gonna? And so it builds up like a good tension.
Speaker: you know? aha So she did a good job of that. And then relieving the tension. yeah Yes.
Speaker: Well, and that it did call into question the idea of love versus lust, you know, and how do you know? And when you're blinded by,
Speaker: the newness of somebody or the sex when there is none, in ah in your other relationship or that it's become boring or whatever that is, that that it plays such a huge role, like you said, and that it's also showing kind of the the use of it by a woman where, and and she's not the one who was the teenage mom, but kind of, again, questioning
Speaker: I don't know, not questioning, but raising that double standard or the... the That it's even...
Speaker: a plot line because it is a woman that's using it versus any of the men that were in, that Ava was meeting up with. It's like, well, that wasn't, that wasn't a plot point for that. You know, like that that wasn't, um, notable,
Speaker: I don't know what exactly I'm trying to say. I guess I'm just saying like that there's, ah it felt like it was pointed in saying kind of like the judgment that comes with a woman who has sex, enjoys sex, uses sex um as well in, in both Joyce and Ava.
Speaker: Yeah. So yeah, like with Ava, she like makes a point to just get into these like sexual relationships or now you can't even call it a relationship, but like um connections. And it's like in order to not have the emotional link or to get hurt.
Speaker: But it's interesting because like you're saying, you know, she's, using that as in a way to be in control. It's notable because she's a woman and not a man.
Speaker: She's also notable because she's kind of intentional about how she's doing it and aware of it. Whereas I think sometimes people will do that and not necessarily be aware of why. Yeah.
Speaker: But then I also thought it was interesting that there's times where she's in those situations and she's thinking to herself, I'm in control. he Maybe he thinks he is, but I am. And that almost makes me wonder if she's not in control in some ways. Yeah. So it was like an interesting kind of Just like a slightly unsettling layer to it.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, and even just that question of like that. some Does somebody always need to be in control? Like that there is that either you're in control or you're not. um And how quickly you can lose control. Yeah.
Speaker: just even from like, oh, wait, I'm enjoying this. Or, you know, like when there is pleasure involved, that's when you're the one providing that outlet, then you're in control. But if you're also enjoying it, then you're like, wait, wait, but I'm losing control. And that that was such an important part for her is that really the power was what she wanted. Like she wanted to be You want this. You want me more than I want you. i can take it away at any time. i don't need this. I don't want this.
Speaker: um This is serving a purpose for me. here Yeah, because she had been through. like a huge loss that was completely out of her control right i will say there was a lot of biting lips and biting the inside of cheeks my there was ah sometimes i would read that and then i would do it myself and be like
Speaker: Does this feel natural? Yes. um I did have to look up the word succubus. So that was fun to look up the meaning of that. I also did question, there was the scene with the hailstorm and Ava was wearing pantyhose and I laughed. Oh, I, I wondered about that too.
Speaker: was like, is this it? And then i I wonder, there's some logistics there that I was like, I need to see this in um like a movie or something to understand the pantyhose ripping. Yeah. Also.
Speaker: But great scene. Yes. Such a good scene. I loved the scene where. what's his name? Michael is coming clean with Malik and Malik is, you know, registering at a super fancy department store. And there are all of these different reflecting surfaces. So like mirrored surfaces. And so he's like coming to terms with his, this truth And having to look at all of these different versions of himself in the mirror while coming clean, you know, but while saying, facing himself or his many selves. That was just absolutely beautiful. um
Speaker: I also was curious to know your thoughts. Just, you know, there's this this paragraph, which I could read, but I don't have to, where essentially Michael says There is no such thing as getting caught up in the moment. Yeah. Will you read that paragraph? Yeah.
Speaker: And I'm curious if you agree. um There is no such thing as getting caught up in the moment. I've always wondered what it would be like to make this choice. I've never done this before, but I hear so many stories of drunk husbands or sad wives simply getting caught up.
Speaker: It's bullshit. The moment always exists. The moment when your life flashes before your eyes and you contemplate every decision ever made. and how the decisions you're about to make can send your life flying off a cliff.
Speaker: This was must be what death feels like, a fraction of a second where everything that matters haunts you before you plunge into the unknown. But this is a choice. i think i agree.
Speaker: i think that sometimes we make choices differently about things that we know are gonna lead to something that we say is not a choice, but we made the choices that led up to it.
Speaker: So like texting her and any one of those was a choice. So they were all choices leading up to this one. So to say like, oh, I got caught up in the moment, like you put yourself in that moment Yeah, that is such a good point. So it's like, you might be caught up right now or like swept away, but this moment didn't just happen.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, yeah. Like we, I think it's a story we tell ourselves that we truly might believe in the moment that I didn't have a choice or... something along those lines but we would probably realize later that I I can take responsibility for my own choices and for my own life and that that's it's always a choice yeah what are your thoughts yeah I think I agree um and I think that's very well distinguished because I don't know
Speaker: i I felt a little less sure. You know, it's like, yeah, there you can get caught up and swept up, but it that is such a good distinction of you made choices that weren't in the moment that got you to that moment.
Speaker: Although now I do want to say i want to add something to it, which is that
Speaker: maybe over like the spectrum of a life because there are like periods in our lives and our development where we, like have less ability to make choices. Our frontal lobe is not fully developed. We are under the control of other people or other systems that we are maybe not old enough or mature enough to know what to do with yet. yeah Or like certain mental health disorders or addictions or things like that can make it feel very much like
Speaker: out of your control. Yeah. And so I think in those cases, it's, can always get caught up in the moment, but that it's always going to be the most helpful and accurate way to think to that most helpful and accurate to think about where you do have choices. Yeah. You know, it's like maybe when I get to this point, I don't have this choice, but I can put myself in a different location yes yeah right yeah excellent point and then I just wanted to say I loved that like extra twist which with the sun and and I definitely I saw it coming but didn't know how it was gonna go and then also kind of didn't put together all the right players um and pieces so yeah that was yeah great
Speaker: I wondered if that was going to be in there still because it was much more prominent in previous versions. And so by the time it pops up, I had started to be like, oh, I guess not. and it's like, oh, I guess so. Okay.
Speaker: So it was still a surprise. But i liked I liked that it was, I think it was vastly different from how it used to be. and it it really like, it just blew everything up in the storyline of the book so well. Like I loved how highly chaotic the, like the, what do you call it?
Speaker: What is it called when it's like the dramatic, I don't know, the most dramatic moment in the book? Yeah, the climax. Yes. kind Oh, my God. ah I'm a mental block. And that climax should be on my mind with this book. but There were so many. that that forgot about one. The non-sexual one.
Speaker: um Yeah. I mean, and I loved how that then shifted the ending. And I just, I mean, it was, it was, man, she's good. She's good.
Speaker: It was, it was a great book. She's good. So, that's in two, like you said, accessibility. I felt like this was such an accessible book. a yes, it stinks that it's only on Amazon, but it is on Amazon. It's available in print and and the e-book. One of our listeners, my friend,
Speaker: ah Laura here in St. Louis got it um right away on her the digital version so very accessible and the way that she writes is so accessible like again i couldn't relate to these stories but I related i felt like I could relate to the characters I was so drawn in it was great I felt like very accessible what about you I completely agree.
Speaker: It's, let's see, so it's $17.90, the book itself, like the paperback, um I guess $9.99 on Kindle, right?
Speaker: And then if you have Kindle Unlimited, I guess you can get it for $0. So those are all various options, all good options. The book itself, one thing I like about the actual book is the cover yeah is like a street with, you know, like the suburban houses lining the sides. And so I just felt like it kind of added to my experience of reading the book to have that sort of idea in mind. It's like,
Speaker: just this little neighborhood where the the tension starts to run real high. Right. Yeah. Because they're where they live, that suburban neighborhood is a big player in, in the story. Yeah.
Speaker: Agree. Yeah. And then i think that it's just, yeah, very accessible in terms of being able to read it, like very entertaining, very thoughtful.
Speaker: um The race issues are handled, I felt like really well. And they really like contribute to a lot of the the choices that people are making the conflict of the book. And so that was like very interesting to see as well. It's not sort of just like referenced. It's like a major player. like Because like when you were talking about the scene when they're um like choosing things for the registry at the department store, the really fancy one, yeah they give Malik the scanning gun.
Speaker: and You know, they talk about, okay, we're all a little nervous because he's a black man and he has to walk around this fancy department store with all these white people with this gun.
Speaker: m it's just like, yeah, something you would wouldn't really think about if you're not a black man.
Speaker: Yeah. Potentially a black woman too. Right. And them in the, in the hospital when there, you know, is a confrontation and it's like security's there and it's like, well, crap. Okay.
Speaker: Let's take it down so that it doesn't become something that it doesn't need to be where someone gets physically hurt and, or it escalates bigger than it needs to be. Yeah.
Speaker: But so, yes, I think very accessible. um All right. So for anybody who is interested in checking out the book, it's available on Amazon. It's called a family affair by Marissa joy, Leo toe.
Speaker: And we'll put that information into our show notes and yeah, highly recommend if you, if you do read it, send us a message and let us know how you like it and post a review.
Speaker: Yes. And if anybody does has read it and wants to let us know what you think, add that to our socials or reach out with it. It was great. I have so many more notes and I just, I loved it.
Speaker: And in terms of likeliness of incorporation or integration score, i will read, i will continue to be seeking out Marissa's works and reading them because I really like her as an author. i mean, I like her as a person, but man she's a good author yeah same i i had the idea in my head like briefly while reading because she ended up self-publishing this and i was like yeah maybe i could become an agent and then i could represent this book but i think that she could do better than a random first-time agent who just decided to do it for the hell of it
Speaker: No, because you like it that much. like that Well, yes, that is why. yeah That is true. And that is what they always say you want in an agent. Somebody who's like really wants to champion your work.
Speaker: Yeah. Such a compliment. Well, Charlotte, I really hope that you and all of our listeners stay interesting. And I hope that you stay interested.
Speaker: by everybody. ah Bye-bye.
Speaker: Thanks for listening to today's episode. Please subscribe, comment, and like the podcast. Follow us on Blue Sky Social at CanWeInterestYouIn. Send us an email at CanWeInterestYouIn at gmail.com.
Speaker: And join us next time.
