Transcript
Speaker: You know that thing you love that your friends and family don't want to hear about anymore? Tell it to us, Patty and Charlotte. We want to learn all about your weird and wild obsessions or your perfectly normal hobbies that you've taken just a little too far.
Speaker: We want to dabble in your curious interests. Can we interest you in today's episode?
Speaker: Hi, Patty. Hey, Charlotte. And hi, Caleb. this is We have today Caleb Avraham, who I went to grad school with like many decades, well, two decades ago, i guess, technically, for social work. And right now he lives in Atlanta with his family and is a lawyer, not not a social worker anymore.
Speaker: Correct, yes. But a lawyer with a social work view of things, that's necessary. Yeah, absolutely. I i use my social work background every day and in my private practice with clients. it's It's super, super helpful and it definitely helps me in a lot of different ways that just going to law school probably wouldn't help you with. And now, Caleb, were you just recently in Colorado for this mini unofficial reunion?
Speaker: I was. I was. And that's how i heard about you you all's fine podcasts from Charlotte. I went to the reunion, which was my first one going to in the 20 years. Yeah. i've I've never gone. It's always been something else I've either...
Speaker: been having a baby or going to law school or starting a practice or moving from Florida to Atlanta. So it's been so many different things happening. And so we you know, this was the first time we bought the whole family and had a great time.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's so cool. And valid reasons to not make it. Yeah. All good reasons. All good reasons. It was so cool to see everybody and to see how close we still were after all this time. And it's just an amazing, amazing experience. Amazing group of people. It really is a great group of people.
Speaker: Yeah. And I would imagine also so interesting to see the different ways that people are using that schooling because there are so many different, yes, of course, lawyer being one of the most biggest jumps, but that even if you're in social work, there are so many ways to to use that.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, absolutely. From anything, even in business, you can use it, right? And being able to speak with people and speak with people with a level of respect. Like our whole thing at SSA was like we were facilitators. We didn't consider our our school was more like a like social reform type of school, whereas like University of Columbia was more like a therapy kind of school. that Those are the two main schools of thought of social work. And so our thing was always like facilitate. So I'm not there to solve your problems. and We're really there to sort of help you in that journey of solving you some of your issues, right? We're just there to facilitate, or at least that's what I got out of it. Charlotte, would would you say that was true?
Speaker: Yeah, and getting like ah the broad perspective of it, because I do think that some schools, well, you you did more of the macro social work, so that's more like policy advocacy, those sorts of things. And then I did the clinical track, so that is more like the direct practice. But um either way, I think that it's getting a perspective of like the systems that impact somebody and and how they're doing rather than like some programs, if they focus on something like counseling might be more focused on like psychology and specific interventions, rather than maybe there are structural issues like racism and sexism, and the whole economic system that are impacting somebody's mental health just as much if not more. Right.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. And definitely facilitating and encouraging empowerment. I remember inre empowerment all the time. Yeah. Just great. Wonderful.
Speaker: And you are now empowered. nice So Charlotte, what, what's been interesting you recently? i am I would say my I'm mainly consumed by by pitching agents my novel and ah trying to get an agent. it's It's taken up a lot of brain space. But I did do a um pitch event on Friday. It was a Zoom pitch event where you you get like a couple minutes to verbally pitch, like a pitch slam. Everybody pitches, and then there are two agents who
Speaker: pick winners and I was one of the winners. Oh, 17 people. Yeah, me and another person. So that was great. Nice.
Speaker: Good job. Yeah, it's it's pretty cool, but it's like it's like you get you get one and then and then Monday i got like, you know, a rejection.
Speaker: It's just like freaking roller coaster, but it is okay. It is okay. I still i still get dopamine out of it. And as we know, that's also very important. Yeah, yeah that's true.
Speaker: It's true. Yes. An important part of it. Yes. Yes. Patty, what about you? what have but What's been interesting you? I just went this past weekend to a Savannah Bananas game. oh Are you guys familiar? Yes, very so. learned about them at the reunion. That's where I first heard about them. I can't believe that's like, oh yeah, a month ago.
Speaker: Yeah. So before we started recording, Caleb was mentioning that he and his son often go to three different baseball parks a year. different teams a year. And so that's what I was thinking of. was like, my God, I was just at this, which obviously it's not MLB. But they did play. I live in St. Louis. And so they played at Bush Stadium where the Cardinals play. And it was packed. Yeah. And it was fun. Yeah. And I hadn't known a ton about it. But my friend Liz, who is like really into kind of everything, she has gone three of them already. Wow. Okay. And guaranteed rate in Chicago, where I'm from. then one in Iowa. She went where the... The Iowa Cubs.
Speaker: Yeah, that's our double A team. Yep. There you go. Okay. Okay. So there you go. So she's already seen it at three. She knew when the tickets were going to be going on sale. My friend, Laura, who lives here, she was right on top of it too. And so they're like, how many tickets should I get? Five, get it as many as you can. And you don't get to pick your seats. if They just like assign you tickets. We had amazing seats. We were right along with the third baseline. in the 100 levels like I could watch the things on the field instead of on this jumbo screen and I had to keep reminding myself that like I was like no it's it's right there um and it was so fun they do like choreographed dances they have great music and you know usually at a standard game there might be some like nice walk-up music or when the pitcher's coming out right yeah we've But this was like nonstop every 30 seconds. They're changing the songs and it's all, all hits. The, the umpire is really into it and is dancing while he's, you know, behind home plate. They get points for trick plays. There was a pitcher that came out on stilts to pitch and a player who was up at bat on a,
Speaker: hoverboard that was like a um surfboard hoverboard. It's just like it was insanity and it was so incredibly fun. yeah So yeah, that is my that's what's been interesting me lately.
Speaker: That's awesome. Yeah. Bananas are from they're fun. They're fun. Have you seen them, Kayla? No, therere there I've been priced out of Savannah Bananas. Like, it's it's it's difficult. You have to get into the lottery. So if you are if you're going to see it at a place like Bush or whatever, then do you have a much better chance of getting it.
Speaker: But you kind of have to know when they're going to come, and you have to sort of know in advance. Getting them in Savannah, I think there's 2 million people on the wait list.
Speaker: wow. getting the Savannah Banana, our closest is Savannah. So getting the Savannah Banana tickets in Savannah is like impossible.
Speaker: And so the only way to get them is on the secondary market, which is how most people get them is on the secondary market. And they're like football tickets are expensive. These are like almost twice as much as a football ticket. It's really, really expensive. And it's kind of like, oh, you're going. Because you're going to see that. And the people who, Savannah Bananas have been around for decades, right? As as ah an affiliate. I can't remember who they were. And then i guess this guy purchased them and did all. So you have people who are like grandfathered that have these season tickets.
Speaker: So they can sell them on a secondary market and make a bunch of money. But it's a cool experience. My son wants to go. So we're looking to get tickets somewhere else. Yeah, on the tour. Yeah, when they go on tour. And I was like, hey, do you want to see, you know, the party animals or the coconuts? And no, they want to see bananas. So...
Speaker: ah Well, and that's the thing, Charlotte. So like Caleb was mentioning, like they they have a season at home, but this is their world tour. So they go around to different stadiums to play. And yes, they do play baseball, but it's not as serious. You're not...
Speaker: as i don't think anyone's as invested in the outcome of the game. The outcome is like the least important thing of this game. You just want to see, you want to hear music, you want to dance.
Speaker: If you catch a fly ball, it counts as an out. yes So in that everyone gets to play, right? Even if you a foul ball. So like if you catch a foul ball, it's still an out. It's still an out.
Speaker: it's now So it's it's ah a way of involved, like baseball is the most serious of all the sports. And the stiffest of all the sports, i I love it dearly, but it is the stiffest of all the major American sports. That's probably true. And so taking it and basically turning it upside down on its head People are crazy about it because they can't believe you can do this in a baseball game. I don't know if it'll be as exciting.
Speaker: And you already have this. You have the Harlem Globetrotters. That's how I keep explaining it to people. I'm like, it's like the Harlem Globetrotters of baseball. yeah Yeah. Yeah. And they exist. And imagine when the Globetrotters first happened, it probably was the same. Like,
Speaker: same kind of energy but again at a basketball game you have cheerleaders you have dancing you have music you have ah every time out there's somebody coming on the floor doing something some right in chicago you have the jesse white tumblers will come out and do tumbles and back clips and stuff so it's already like that yeah so you you're so the with the globetrotters you're just kind of seeing tricks and stuff whereas the bananas you're doing, it's like going to a basketball game almost, because they got the music and they got the trick plays too as well. So it's just a little different.
Speaker: It's the most different atmosphere that you're going to get, you know. I guess I hadn't really thought about that because, yeah, it's like some of the other sports, they'll do like a touchdown dance or like with basketball, they might do little like whatever the showboating type things they do. But baseball, you got another.
Speaker: Yeah. You do that and then the next the next batter gets hit with a ball. We're back at 100 miles an hour. And the thing which I think one of my favorite sports to watch is women's softball.
Speaker: And women's softball is a lot like girls softball in that girls softball, if you get a double, you're doing dances on the basis. Like you're celebrating.
Speaker: You always celebrate. You're cheering. You're doing all kinds of songs. And my daughter plays softball. And so couple of years ago, we went to the playoffs and the World Series, softball World Series.
Speaker: And i was like, this is crazy. It's the same in terms of the enthusiasm is the same, right? The women, they hit her, they they steal, they get they're doing dances and and no one feels like, oh, she's showing me up.
Speaker: So going to hit her with the ball. the next thing yeah like Yeah, stop showboating. Yeah, you can have fun, right? In baseball, you just aren't allowed to have fun.
Speaker: Unless you're like in the Latin leagues, you can have fun. We saw a game in Japan this year. Me and my son saw a game in Japan. You can have fun.
Speaker: But American baseball is just so like dry, dry, dry, dry. dry They won't allow you to have fun. Which is where this is kind of like you were saying, if it happened in basketball, which we already have with the home glow players, it's not as much of a juxtaposition. right But I think it's also what's driving a lot of people who are purists of baseball crazy because they feel like this is not baseball. This is not what you do. right um But there was just, my friend sent me a podcast today and it was, which one? It's like the Daily
Speaker: Isn't that like and New Yorker? Yeah. yeah New York Times. And so they didn't. they covered this and it was all about like, okay, I am a super baseball fan. What am I going to think about this? And so then she went and she's like, I love it. This is crazy. What are they doing?
Speaker: But it's not baseball. And then she interviewed someone like a young girl who was like, I love baseball, but I love this too. i And I'm not saying it's better. Like I still love both. so It's not like it's going to be one or the other, but it could be a gateway for some people who don't like it.
Speaker: I also really like, so they changed up a couple of the the rules. And like Caleb said, the one where if you catch a fly ball or like a foul ball, if one of the, ah anyone in the stands does, it counts as an out. And the other one being instead of a walk, ah it's ah it's a sprint. So, you know, if you get four ah balls,
Speaker: you can walk to first base generally. Well, this is you sprint. And so you can run as many bases as you can before every single player on the field touch catches the ball, like has had the ball in their hands so that they all come in from outfield, from everywhere. And they're right at the second base trying to like, you know, talk to everybody so that the player doesn't steal anymore. but And I'm like, that would be so fun. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah. you know yeah And that's what it is. It's just a fun way of getting people interested in baseball. and And it will kind of loosen up, I think, everybody when it comes to baseball. So when you do see celebrations, a bat lip in regular baseball, it doesn't, it's not as shocking, right? And it's sort of acceptable because they do that in other countries.
Speaker: Like we're the only country that doesn't do it. So it's still a serious sport, but you could still have some fun. That's how, and that's what, the bananas are doing. They're just like, yeah, we know it's a serious sport, but you can also have fun at it too.
Speaker: Yeah. yeah and They're probably also like, and you guys are watching us a lot more than you're watching them. Cause I go to a baseball game and I'm just focused on what I'm eating mostly. Yeah. That's a big part of going to a baseball game. Very important.
Speaker: you it It is also really cool. Cause there's now the women's pro baseball league. Yeah. so yeah thank Prior to this, they allowed women to play on the banana bananas, Savannah bananas team. Yeah. But fewer of them have been playing recently on this world tour because they're playing baseball league. So a lot of them are actually in that league, which is kind of fun and hopefully like encourages some more cross watching like, oh, you know, remember this person. Now you can watch them on whatever team they're on. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah. ah Well, Caleb, do you have any sub interests to your main interest that is interesting you recently? Well, recently I've been doing a lot of like climbing, mountain climbing and trying to get um my son into it a little more. i would say ah woodworking and and being in the mountains, those are my two biggest passions. And for sure, just getting out, being outside. i love being outside.
Speaker: And I was trying to figure out a way how I can do this interview in my shed. And it worked out because there's something wrong with my my phone, but like our internet is not acting right. um But... um because I just love being outside and part of the reason why i like woodworking is for that reason too.
Speaker: um Just getting up in the mountains, i find them to be beautiful. I find them to be sacred spaces. It is what I consider to be my religion and is being outside and being in nature and climbing mountains is part of that. So I always find sort of my center and and things that have to do with nature. i think climbing mountains and working with wood are sort of, they go hand in hand.
Speaker: um You get the wood from the land, the mountains are from the land. And so that connection there is something that I'm sort of really exploring. a little more and just getting out and getting, getting getting out and getting up into the mountains. So like this past weekend, we attempted to do the, the Calabron, but we got started a little bit late and then the storms came in. And so we just found it safe to go back down, but we were able to summit up to,
Speaker: Mount Brass because we did the reverse of the Calibron. So we went up Mount Brass, which is crazy because there's a lot of scree. So we're going up there. We we got to 14,000 feet. We didn't get quite to the summit because it's private. So you can't trespass up there.
Speaker: Oh, yeah. That's an interesting story. I'll save for another day. But then the the clouds came in as they're you you want to do in the mountains in the afternoon. And on our way down, we did get caught in a hail storm, a little, a bit of hail storm on our way down. um So, but it it didn't last very long with me and my son, we got down to the bottom. So it was his force.
Speaker: 14-er, which was really cool. And it was my first 14-er in the United States. So we got that to share that too as well. So that was pretty cool. So that's what I'm really into now. with Both of us are kind of looking to see what we're going to do next. What's our next 14-er we're going to do. We want to finish the Kyle Brown, but we might do Mount Whitney next um summer.
Speaker: Where's that one? in California. So Mount Whitney is the tallest or the highest tallest, how do you say it, tallest mountain in the contiguous United States, right? So the tallest in the United States is Denali um in Alaska. And Alaska has a ton of mountains over 14,000 feet. um Or, ah it you know, in the contiguous United States, we don't have as many. California has a bunch. Colorado obviously has a bunch, 58, 57 by some people's count, 14ers.
Speaker: But in Alaska, they have a lot more. But the biggest one here in the lower 48 is Mount Whitney in California. Wow. Good for you guys.
Speaker: Well, 14er is... 14,000 feet or more? yes Yeah. It's like a big thing here in Colorado. Like people are like always, don't know, trying to bunch of 14ers and you have to get up really early.
Speaker: You have to, you've got to get up early to do the 14ers. Two, ah you know, two o'clock is pretty early, but most people start at four ah because you want to get done by um noon before the clouds come in What's great about Colorado is their trails are very good, well maintained.
Speaker: haven't been on a bad trail, not to say that they they don't exist, but me personally, i haven't been on a bad trail in Colorado. In California, they can be rough. Like, especially in the high Sierra, there's a lot of, they have quite a bit of snowpack that can affect when it melts. You might have some avalanches. There's the fires that can affect how strong the trees can be. And then the snow kind of weighs down on them, breaking them down. And so the trails kind of Yeah.
Speaker: so you gotta do quite a bit of trail finding when you're on some of those california fourteeners it it tends to be a little bit hotter even though you're still high up but sort of down low in the low sierras it can be a little hot when you're starting out your climb yeah um Colorado, you don't get as much of that. it usually stays, in my experience, pretty pleasant. And as you get up, it gets a little bit colder. But for for my money, I like the Colorado 14ers over the California one. But both of them are great.
Speaker: That's so cool that you guys just did that. that is And how old is your son? He's nine. Nine years old. Yeah. Yeah. Shut your mouth. I was expecting like 18, 16. No, because you had said like by the time we get to 18, I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker: Nine years old doing a 14er. Yeah. Look at me using that term. hes Yeah. I feel like I could do it. Maybe. Except, you know, nine year olds, they got energy. You could do it. You could do it. Yeah. um yeah I'm super proud of him. I think he did really, really good on the mountain. um When we got up to the top, he was a little bit loopy yeah is as as the altitude starts to get to you. um But he did a great job. And I think if we had a few more days at altitude, then I think he would have been even stronger.
Speaker: now But I'm proud of him. He trained for it. We've been climbing the the the mountains here in in Georgia, the North Georgia mountains. We got a couple of mountains of 4,000 feet or stuff stuff, but we still get the elevation or the elevation gain. So even though they're shorter, we can climb more feet.
Speaker: You see what I'm saying? some of the 14ers, the trail starts at 12,000 feet and elevation and you just got to get to 14,000 so your elevation gain is only 2,000 feet which is a lot you know for sure which is a lot but um it's like the mountain we did here a couple of weeks ago was Brasstown Bald we started down at the road
Speaker: And that was 2,500 feet elevation gain, right? Even though we were just going up to 4,185 feet, I think it was, thereabouts, right?
Speaker: It was still a lot of elevation that we gained for that particular track. We'll have to have you on the show again and talk about this, if only to make me and Patty do a portcino. The only thing that's going to motivate me at least.
Speaker: Yeah. I was telling someone the other day that I went to Red Rocks just to hike it with you because Charlotte, when I to visit you a couple of years ago, we did that. And yeah, it's just, it is funny. Cause when you hear someone say like, oh, climbing a mountain or whatever, and I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. Like went on a nice little stroll or hike. And it's like, no, you're actually doing that. Crazy. Very cool. yes Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: But we'll have, we'll have to learn more about that. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. But yeah, you are here to tell us about your other interest that also has to do with nature.
Speaker: And that is woodworking, right? Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about, i guess, how you got into it? Yeah, it's it's kind of interesting because i I'm from Chicago, born and raised in the city of Chicago, grew up in Lincoln Park um in the late 80s to sort of mid 90s. Right. And that's the time at which, at least in Lincoln Park, I always say Cabrini Green, which was a housing project, was right across the street from where i grew up.
Speaker: So if you go to Chicago today and you see Lincoln Park, you'd be like, yeah, this is a very nice area. Parts of Lincoln Park didn't always look like that. It was a little that you did have wealthy areas, but right across the street, you would have like pretty stark poverty. And in that's just the tale of Chicago. and um But you grew up in the city, right? I didn't even learn how to drive a car until I was like 23 years old. I took public transportation, trains everywhere, concrete jungle, right? um
Speaker: And i didn't know how to... do anything, right? Build anything, make anything. um I started learning how to cook when I was very young, but even that wasn't like great, you know. um yeah Just to have food. Right. Yeah, it was survival, you know.
Speaker: um And then moved from here. I moved to move from Chicago, moved Washington, D.C. to start my career in social work, met my wife. And then we kind of moved to Georgia. And again, all all this time I'm in apartments. I'm in apartments. I'm just going to apartments, apartments, something breaks down. Maybe it's a little thing I can fix.
Speaker: But then, you know, about, it's been like almost 10, more than 10 years now, like 12 years ago, we bought our first house here in in Georgia.
Speaker: And we had, in the back, we had this nice like forest in the back there. And it was pretty cool. It was my first house, first house that I ever purchased. You know, I feel like I was like, I'm an adult now. I got it.
Speaker: ah mary I'm in the suburbs of all suburbs, you for Georgia. And I'm um'm i'm feeling it now. And so when we moved in, um you know, the house was pretty good.
Speaker: But for some reason, i was like, man, we need a new toilet. Not a new toilet seat, but a new toilet. I'd still today, I don't know why.
Speaker: But we needed a new toilet. And so my first... real job doing anything with like my hands for real was replacing our toilet. Why I felt like I had the confidence do it, I don't know. But I was like, I'm going to take this toilet out. So I took out the toilet, replaced it, did the whole wax ring and everything like that. Since that time, I've replaced maybe half a dozen toilets.
Speaker: But like the toilet was the first thing that introduced me into like working with my hands. Right. As a lawyer, social worker, kid from the city, I never really did anything like that. The next project I did was I installed a garbage disposal in our kitchen.
Speaker: And from the start, it sounds like a pretty simple job, except for the fact that our sink, our sink was not made for a garbage disposal.
Speaker: So I had to do all of the electrical wiring safely up to code in order to install the garbage disposal under our sink, right?
Speaker: So I was able to install this garbage disposal under our sink. I did all the wiring. I put the switch and all this kind of stuff down there. And I was like, man, I'm doing it now. I'm feeling pretty good. Like I'm doing all this stuff. And then I just started becoming obsessed with like making stuff from scratch, like anything from scratch.
Speaker: I was already doing that with cooking and stuff, but I wanted to start making things. And i said, you know what? I think would be cool if I made a coffee table and not just any coffee table, but if I can make a coffee table from these sticks in our backyard, like the big,
Speaker: some logs and stuff. So I gathered up some, was like, it might look pretty cool. So I gathered up some sticks and some random things. And i don't know, i can't remember what I use for the top of this coffee table.
Speaker: But it was some organic material and I just kind of put these sticks together and made a coffee table from these sticks that I used in all these weird ways and that's coffee table top. And I was like, oh, this is cool, but admittedly it was not a great coffee table. It wasn't very stable.
Speaker: I think it broke eventually. But then we moved from that house to the house that we live in today. And that's when for me, it really kind of started like the real woodworking stuff started where I started to really become interested in. i learned how to do woodworking through putting this house together that I'm sitting in right now. So we bought this house. It was a good house, but it was very drab. So I am notoriously cheap.
Speaker: And at this point, I was like, shit, I can do anything. Excuse my language. But I was like, I can i could do this stuff in here. And so we had an apartment and I would come to the house every night and just build.
Speaker: So knock things down, build things, all the floors in this house. I put down all the floors. a panel of flooring in this house I put down. The kitchen, I've remodeled that kitchen twice, put in the cabinets, all the painting. The whole house is painted by me, except for the main living room area. Every other, all the paint in this entire house. And there's a lot of walls in this house.
Speaker: I've painted all of it and the furniture. So the tables, all of our tables in our home, I built all those tables. Oh, and that's what I started woodworking with. My first real woodworking job was for this house. Right.
Speaker: um And I built a table. Now it's the first thing I built and I learned how to do all of this on YouTube. I'm just like I say, I'm a YouTube woodworker. Right. um And there were a ah couple of guys that for some reason didn't.
Speaker: started watching their videos. um This one cat, of he goes by Bourbon Moth. um I started watching his videos a lot. um Paul Sellers, who's a genius when it comes to woodworking, just an absolute brilliant genius when it comes to woodworking. And he taught me a lot about hand tools. So at first I was using machines, which I still use machines, but I go through all of these phases and stuff. And Paul Sellers does amazing work.
Speaker: using hand tools, just regular tools, like a hand planer instead of ah an electric one. Hand tools, hand saw, he's sawing everything with his hand. No, no circular saws, nothing, just a hand saw and doing all of this beautiful work with wood and watching Paul Sellers, watching all of these guys, um, that I come to like this guy,
Speaker: Katz, Moses, he's awesome. He taught me basically how to build what I'm going to give you guys an assignment but on, but I'll wait for that later. And just working with tools, working with this material called wood, and I just, at that point, I fell in love. And and it kind of started with the table for our dining room.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And we had so because this sounds quite different from like we had somebody on who did Mariel with turning. And then this sounds like totally kind of you can go quite wild in a different direction um where you could be doing floors, you could be doing furniture, you could be like just um Chairs.
Speaker: ah Chairs. Yeah. Yeah. I have a couple of chairs, stools that I built. And that's the beauty about woodworking. It's an art. Right. It is an art.
Speaker: Woodworking is an art. um And so woodturning is a type of woodworking. right? um and It's an art in ah in and of itself, even carpentry, and which I love doing as well. Carpentry like putting in floors, ah building our theater room and doing doing things like that. That's carpentry, right? That's different. anything that you that's a little yeah Correct. That's different, right? Carpentry can be uniform, but it can can also be an art form.
Speaker: All of this stuff takes an incredible amount of skill. And what I learned the most about woodworking is how much like respect and appreciation I have for ah carpenters. I have for people, for laborers and so much so that i I always encourage my kids, hey, do good in school, do well in school. But if you do a trade, that's im I would be such A happy father if you decided to do a trade. as said, maybe if I had it all to do over, would do a trade, you know, yeah and be a tradesman as opposed to being an an attorney. and I mean, the skill that it takes to do some of this stuff, like you look at your wall and your wall is flat.
Speaker: There are no such thing as flat walls, right? Your wall is a bunch of panels put together with mud and water and and by mud I mean that the material that they use to put the wall in nails and it looks flat. That takes... And can hold weight. And it can hold weight. There's so much physics that goes into building a house and and I just built my shed this past winter and yeah,
Speaker: yeah When you're building it, I'm like, this is like building a little house, right? And there's so much physics that go into it, so many measurements that go into it. It's extremely complex. And so that's a little different because it's exact measurements. Like carpentry, a lot of it is very exact measurements, right?
Speaker: Whereas with woodturning and some parts of woodworking, some parts of woodworking are very exact. But then there other parts that you can just go crazy. One of my... favorite creations is I did a side table for my daughter, which has like this, and and i I'll send you guys pictures so you'll actually see them. Yeah. um That has like this really wild looking, um it's a pedestal, right? So it's like the stem is pretty, it's like curvy and whatnot. And I just decided, hey, I want to do something different that looks cool, that looks a little different. And it's made out of walnut and um white ash, I want to say.
Speaker: But sort of two, because I want to have look like a black and white kind of table, right? um Nice. And so I was cool to do because I was like, man, this is like cool. Like i'm I'm really doing something, creating something. And it scratches that artistic itch that I have of doing something like interesting. Right. um In the pieces of wood that you pick, like your lumber, when you go to the lumber yard and you're looking for wood. I like to pick wood that has a lot of character to it. So knots, like big knots that that are in there. so A lot of times woodworkers may not like that because you got to take those knots out. You need to fill them. They can be hard to work with. But I love knots because it shows like that a kind of character to it, a rustic look to it. And so I love to pick those pieces of lumber out at the lumber yard and put something together. call the...
Speaker: The table that we have in our a breakfast nook at home, I call it my Jupiter table. Because when you look at it, and I'll send you a picture of this, it looks like the planet Jupiter, because it's got all of these like bands to it. And there's one knot up to the right that looks like like a like a gas spot or sunspot that you see on planet Jupiter. So it's like pretty cool.
Speaker: But I like doing stuff like that. So you said it scratches the art artistic itch and and these are all very interesting pieces so do you design them as well do you go places for inspiration to people like does your wife commission it yeah so i have done some work for for money and i used to i i did it a little bit more than i say do it now now i do most of the work i do i do for friends who want things or for just my house. Because when I started to really ramp up things for like a side business to working, um it became pretty stressful. in fact you know it And I said, I love doing this and I don't want it to stress me out.
Speaker: Yes, right. And so I have a job. That job stresses me enough. I don't need another job to stress me out. And my wife was supportive. She was like, this is good stuff. You can make money. Can you can you make some money doing this? And I was like, yeah, sure. they's Be cool. And i could I commissioned some pieces. I built a beautiful table for a family friend of ours. out of tiger wood which is it sounds exactly looks the exactly the way it sounds it looks like it's like sort of this orangey wood that has like these brown veins in it that looks like a tiger it's really really cool um it's uh exotic species from they call exotic species from africa
Speaker: beautiful with cast iron legs on it. um It's one of the best pieces I've ever made. um And I loved making it, but it was, I had to get it done by a certain yeah time and they required that. And I was like, it was stressful to get it done, but I got it done. I'm like, you know, I don't know if I want to like do this, do this for, for, for work because I love doing it. So now If I make something, somebody wants to buy it, I'll sell it to them, you know? Yeah. um
Speaker: But or if it's a family friend or someone's getting married, then I might make them a cutting board, something simple um like that where I can put it together or gifts. I make things for people as gifts, especially for for my wife. She enjoys getting some gifts and stuff. um And that's that's really kind of what where my focus for my craft is right now is just making me happy i but it's the thing that makes me happy and getting out of my shed and doing it and so to answer your question long story short like i did do it for commissions but now i i'm sort of commission free if i build something i think it's cool if i post it and someone wants to buy it then they can go ahead and
Speaker: So then do you kind of let the... How how do you come up with the design? Yeah, with the for the designs, I just kind of... it just Things just kind of come to me in my head.
Speaker: um give you an example, I made a cutting board for my mother-in-law, and I was like, I want to make something for her. I've always wanted to make something for her. I never could think of like the right thing to make for She's such an incredible woman. She loves to cook.
Speaker: That's her thing. My Ami loves to cook. That's her thing. That's how she shows love to everybody. She always cooks for me. i love going to Ami's house because she's going to make me some good briyani, some dosas,
Speaker: ah fat me up, you know, and so and she loves to do it. You know, this is like your traditional. Yeah, that's how she tells love. Yeah.
Speaker: Indian um mother, right? The mother-in-law who loves her son-in-law like a son. So I couldn't have a better mother. And so I wanted to make something to symbolize that. So I made a cutting board and on it, I sort of carved in a shape of ah of a mountain.
Speaker: um And this is a mountain in ah in the same area in the Himalaya, in the same area as Mount Everest. And this Ama de Blom.
Speaker: And Ama de Blom, for my money, is the most beautiful mountain I've seen. I went to hikeed to Everest Base Camp a few years ago with a good friend of mine. And you on the Everest Base Camp trek, you pass Ama de Blom. So you get like a really great picture of Ama de Blom.
Speaker: And the name of Amad Ablam means of Sky Mother or or Mother of the Sky, right? um And the Ablam sort of like the necklace, right?
Speaker: um And the story is Amad Ablam is sort of like this big peak and there are two smaller peaks. It's like her children. And so this necklace of these like kind of smaller mountains um that you can see it when you when you look at the mountain, I wanted to like symbolize that in the cutting board. So I made like this amada blam and then I put like.
Speaker: circles for each one of her kids out of like different wood. So each one of her kids, I put like a circle for each one of her kids out of like different types of woods. I use purple, um purple heart, which is cool.
Speaker: Purple bar it's like one of the coolest things. It's purple wood. It's purple. It's a tree, it's purple. It's like, when I, the first time I saw a purple heart, as I was like, can't believe it's purple.
Speaker: um and walnut and I think I used maybe some tiger wood or not tiger wood I used some but I used different colors for all her different kids like sort of in a necklace shape um and that's kind of the inspiration that I had right and it's always sort of I have to think about what's going to what is this wood itself symbolize What does it mean?
Speaker: What does it mean to the person that I'm making it for? You know, um I did a a cutting board for someone where I put the cord coordinates on the side of the cutting board of where he and his wife met.
Speaker: So they met in in a Caribbean island, but that coordinate of where they met, i put of that island, I put in the cutting board, right? So it's all these sort of things.
Speaker: that are meaningful, the table I commissioned on the underneath underneath the table, I put um purple heart in the shape of a heart, like embedded in the wood underneath. And I put the initials of the mother, the father and the daughter across the bottom so they can have it.
Speaker: You know, like this is for them. This is their table. This is for their family where they're going to share meals. And so building, and that's why tables are kind of my favorite thing to to make are tables because it's where you sit around with family, you share meals, you gather together. um It means a lot to me. um And so putting together a table, which tables are big, so they can be a challenge to get them flat. It takes a lot of work to get them flat, um especially when you're using hardwood.
Speaker: It can be a challenge. And so that's kind of how I get my inspiration from the people that I'm doing the work for. Otherwise, i just kind of just make stuff, you know, that I think is interesting. I imagine it would be so like, given what you do for work and then given that it's been like social work and then law very like in your head kinds of things or sometimes in front of a computer kinds of things it must be then just almost the opposite to be able to use your hands use your whole body and then also use your the artistic side of you
Speaker: Right. And I think that's the biggest thing for me is someone who works behind a computer screen for most of the day. It's number one, it's good to to use your hands to work.
Speaker: I think it's really cool. i always say this. I'm like, there's a pile of sticks in front of me. And what I can do with these pile of sticks with these two hands is awesome. It's just a pile of sticks in front of you. And then you can create anything from that.
Speaker: So that's what I think is like the coolest thing about woodworking or any kind of and creation is being able to do that. We're amazing in that way as humans, right? um But also as a lawyer, it takes a year, if I'm lucky, to be done with a case.
Speaker: Cases take years and years and years and you're just going through it and going through it and going through it. The other side, can be a jerk.
Speaker: They probably think I'm a jerk. um It's just, you know, there there is like, you're just grinding through it. And with woodworking or any kind of thing like that, I find like there's an end to it and I can see it. Yeah.
Speaker: There's a start, there's a middle, and there's difficulty in that, for sure. There's challenges. You've got to throw things away sometimes or it gets messed up. Wood is, you know, a little different than, say, metal, where you can kind of manipulate metal in a certain way where you can still kind of salvage it. something When you cut, that's why you say measure twice, cut once, because if you make the wrong cut, that's it.
Speaker: You can't, a lot of times you can't make up for it. So getting something done and being able to see a finished product is like super, super satisfying.
Speaker: And that you can always be improving and like that you kind of get into different techniques and yeah like master that and then the next one and then something the mastering of the of the craft. you''re You're going constantly learning, learning, learning, and it's a muscle.
Speaker: So your your your hands get used to cutting a certain way. And that's why i love working with hand tools, even though i I'm not going to say I'm like the best at working with them, but I love working with hand tools because I can feel the the wood when I'm working with my hands. Like I find I make fewer mistakes.
Speaker: when I'm making it working with hand tools because I can feel it. right I'm like, I know I'm not going straight, I'm veering off, let me try to correct it. And then your hands kind of feel that, right your body feels it too. So one of the things I learned from Paul Sellers is when you're working with wood, a lot of times you're not just using um your hands, you're using your entire body.
Speaker: It's sort of like how you like your indexing. For example, I would saw and I was like, why can't I saw straight? Why am I always like sawing? And it's because you have to like index the wood. Your your arm has to be at a certain angle in order to get that line dead straight.
Speaker: You can draw a line and you can use your eye or you can feel it. You might have to position your body in a certain way in order to get down a straight line.
Speaker: And so doing all of these types of movements kind of with a work table Your body is learning how to move around the wood. It's learning how to like accept it in a certain way. And that's that's the part of it that I love. It's like you're really engaged. I find it like climbing a mountain.
Speaker: You know how sometimes people, when I go out for a run, I usually have some headphones on, especially a long run and stuff like that. I don't listen to anything in the mountains. I'm so focused.
Speaker: on what I'm doing because I can't, it just, I don't listen to anything. I don't listen to podcasts. I don't care how long it is. Me and my son, we were out there for six hours. Like, and it was just us because you're just kind of figuring it out. You're so, focused I'm just so focused on the task and what's going on around me and maybe enjoying the views or doing things like that. It's just kind of really intense. And I feel woodworking is the same way. It's just like, you don't want to mess up.
Speaker: And like, because you can cut your finger off. so you're not famous it in these hands These hands not only have calluses on them, but they have a fair amount of cuts. I have been to the urgent care to get stitches. It it happens. you can But I still have all my fingers. But you still have all. I was going to say, I would like to report. I see all 10 fingers. Yes, I have them all. I still have all my fingers. I got some stitches on on my thumb. I got stitches here. I got some stitches here. But all of my thumbs, all of my fingers, they're still there.
Speaker: The way you talked about it was such like, it just brings forth mindfulness for me, you know where it's like, you're so in tune, not just with what you're doing, but like what the wood is telling you and what the what the wood and the tool are telling you. It's like that you're aware of the things that even you don't even know that you know.
Speaker: yeah Yeah. yeah yeah Yeah. That's really cool. Absolutely. And it in it's fun to, you know, it's fun to do it and when you're doing projects Seeing the end result is like super fun, but the work that it takes to get to that end part is by itself rewarding. It's like the journey, right? That's to me the most important part of all of this, isn't the end result. Because like the guys on YouTube, they're so good.
Speaker: That's one thing I had to get out of my own head. I'm like, these dudes are great. They're really, really good. And they've got years and years and years that you don't have. So your stuff doesn't have to look as pretty as theirs does. But it just needs to work, Caleb. It just needs to work. um And and it just take your time. And it just needs to work. And it doesn't have to be perfect the way they have it. Because you're not seeing a lot of times the entire process. And even if you are seeing the process, they have. And sometimes they just have tools that you don't have.
Speaker: I love to do it with my hands because then I can say I did that. I built that with my hand. i didn't put it through a planer. i i so I planed those edges flat myself, right? And that's got to be the the hard part about, you know, if you do try to sell something, then there is that time frame on it. But if you don't care about that and it's really about that whole process, then... you're doing it you don't have to go to the gym because you're planing right you don't have to go to the sauna because you're in your because it's hot man yeah yeah you're working out in my hands you know my hands got because i i remember i went to get a ring and a new
Speaker: wedding ring and I had one that my mother-in-law bought for me when I first got married. It's part part of the like Indian tradition. I had been working, went working for for years at this point and it got stuck.
Speaker: I couldn't get it off because now my fingers had got swollen because of all of the hammering I've been doing and like sawing and everything like that. and I remember going to the jeweler and he's And he says, well, you got really, he's like, you have big knuckles. You must work with your hands or something. Or you must, like, do a lot. of And I was like, yeah, I do. It was crazy to me to think that because I was like, I'm a lawyer.
Speaker: Right. You know, i'm a I'm an attorney. Attorneys don't have hands that look like that. Were you like, thank you for noticing I work with my hands. that I was. I actually was. i was like, oh, cool. My hands are all beat up and gnarled. That's awesome.
Speaker: It's cool to hear you talk about it. It's very like, you know, clearly just something that's that you love and that you've loved for a long time. Cause you've been doing this at this point now, how long?
Speaker: i've been yeah yeah I've been doing it since we've been in this house since my boy is like six months. So yeah, it's been about nine years, you know, about eight and a half, nine years since I've been like doing it in a way um,
Speaker: I could say like I was building stuff and like you could see the stages of of my work. Even in this house, you could see the stages of my work. My first table was serviceable. It was pretty decent.
Speaker: And the tables that that I make now, my most recent table, I think it's pretty, it's a is a really cool design. And I'll send you guys a picture of it. So what I did with this table is a coffee table for our living room.
Speaker: um I wanted to do something cool. So um there's some pine trees outside that we had to cut down to make some space. And so I took these pine trees and I said, i i what can I make with these skinny pine trees? Like, I can mill them up, but the boards would be so thin. And so it would take me forever to make something out of these thin boards. Not to mention, you they have to dry, right? Wet wood is no good. So it's got to dry. You have to have the perfect...
Speaker: content liquid content, water content in your wood ah for for you to work on it. The drier, the better. And there's monitors that you can use. And so this is fresh wood, so it's wet wood.
Speaker: So some of it had been laying out for like, I want to say a year, but it was still laying out in the elements. It's drying, but it's not in a dryer. So I said, you know what? I can cut these things into disc.
Speaker: So I cut them in a disc And I bought a toaster oven. So I used a toaster oven to dry out. You put it in up top or slide in? The slide in. to slide it okay yeah okay so i do So I dried out these pieces of wood as best I can outside, by the way, because you don't want to smell all that stuff. So I used a toaster oven to dry out the wood. Of course it cracked, which is fine. It was part of the aesthetic. And I made an epoxy table out of these discs. So I put it in a
Speaker: I made a form. I put on all of these pieces of wood. I poured in black epoxy, planed it down and everything, and made a coffee table out of it.
Speaker: And the best thing I like when people come over the house and they don't mention, like, anything. And in some ways, you're like, oh, you don't you want people to mention your work? I'm like, I actually don't. I want them to think I bought it.
Speaker: Yeah. You know, like, oh, did you make that in preschool? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Where did you get this? It looks so interesting. It's like, no, they think it's that I got it from a story. And then what inevitably happens is if we start talking and people are around and stuff and they say, oh, what would do you like? to end I'm like, oh, yeah, I did. I did all of this stuff. And then I say, what do you mean? I'm like, yeah, I made that table or I made that thing there and stuff. And then they're just like, wait a minute, you did that? I'm like, yeah, i did that.
Speaker: And that's that's like pretty cool, like like kind of experience. And so I'm not fishing for compliments, but it's really cool when someone acknowledges like, wow, like I thought you got that from like a furniture store or something like that.
Speaker: I hope you'll send us a picture of your your work, like your shed. Because that sounds pretty amazing that you built that yourself. Yeah, I'll see it i'll send you a picture of it. Yeah, it it's it's it's pretty cool.
Speaker: um I started working with some this Japanese technique of protecting wood. I can't remember the name of it right now, but... um what what you do is you burn it right you burn it and char it and that charring protects the wood from from rain and so part of my shed i burn so you'll see that like it's it's burned but that's on purpose to be to protect the wood from the elements and from bugs because bugs don't like the smell of
Speaker: What is our homework? So your your homework assignment is, right, so o my project for you guys, I don't know you can see the whole thing.
Speaker: Probably not. Maybe lift it up a little bit. Yeah, yeah. OK. OK. For woodworkers, right, anyone who's done woodworking, making a simple box is probably, it's like making an omelet for a chef.
Speaker: Omelets are simple. You know, everyone knows how to make an omelet, but to make a perfect omelet takes an extreme amount of skill. So too for the box, for a woodworker.
Speaker: It's one of the first things you learn how to make and to perfect it and to make it perfect takes a ton of skill. So this is a box. This is a cigar box that I that i made. That's the humidor on top.
Speaker: It is made let's see, white oak. And here you can see, i think you can see it right there. This is called a spline.
Speaker: It's pretty cool, I like it. It gives an accent, but it also keeps, it gives some structure to the box itself. um If you can... Look in here, and I also lined this box with cedar since it's a for cigars, right? So there's a cedar lining inside. It smells delicious.
Speaker: um That's one of the things I love about woodworking is because I can be outside in my shed. i smoke my cigars. um I'll have a little whiskey with me as well.
Speaker: And that was a really tight close that you just did there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a tight fit. So they you want the fit to be tight. It doesn't have to be tight. You can use clasp.
Speaker: You can use um ah buttons. You can use a lot of different techniques to keep keep the top on. A lot of times what people would do is they would use one piece, right? Yeah. And as they use one piece, they will cut the top off and then you know you have a nice top and you can use some hinges to open and close it. And so the assignment I have for you guys is to make a simple box. It can have a top. It doesn't have to have a top.
Speaker: And it's it it doesn't have to be fancy. You know, there's a lot of different techniques. It will not be fancy. Yeah.
Speaker: ours And you can, I don't know if you guys want me to do it, um teach you, but you my thing is for you all to kind of learn the way I learned, which is on YouTube. YouTube,
Speaker: and You mentioned some names that we might check out. so Will they do anything simple? So the one, the the person who i learned how to make boxes from, and in in you'll watch this video, it's, listen,
Speaker: His stuff is like beautiful. It's not to look like that, but he's, he's a great woodworker. Uh, his name is Jonathan Katz Moses. Okay.
Speaker: Okay. And anything that Jonathan Katz Moses does is awesome. He's a great woodworker. Um, he is a great, um, He gives great instructions on how to make things as well. And again, it doesn't have to be crazy. It doesn't have to be complicated, but make yourself a nice nice little jewelry box and you can have it for the rest of your life.
Speaker: I knew was going to be something like make something wood. I thought it was going to be a bench. And I was like, I've made a bench. I made a bench before. I made like a little footstool before when I was in high school. But this yeah has like many more walls than a bench.
Speaker: Bench is just three. Yeah. And that's the thing about if you can make a box, you can make almost anything in woodworking. It's like as a lawyer, what they used to tell us as young lawyers, they say, if you can try a DUI case, you can try any kind of case. And you're just like, are you kidding you could try a You know how to do a DUI. You could try a complex.
Speaker: And I've been a lawyer now for... How many years? 15, 16 years, something. And damn it if they weren't right. Wow. Because in a DUI case has all the elements.
Speaker: Is there glue involved? Okay. Yes. there's not Not just glue. I recognize there's some other things like nails.
Speaker: Yeah. So um most of this stuff, this there's no There's no nails. Like joinery? No. No. like so So all of this stuff is what what is joinery, right? To put these joints together, you have to use special techniques, joinery techniques, right?
Speaker: You can make a box without using any glue. at all. um To do that kind of boxing, in my opinion, takes a great amount of skill. If you're using joints, mortise and tenon joints, those are really hard to cut. That's not what this is, right? I'm using splices here.
Speaker: They're the type of joinery that i used here. Joinery, that's great. Yeah, it's just like 45 degree angles okay let's think up against each other. And it's clamped. and And so the type of clamp I used, right, is to clamp all the sides together. So you'll have to invest in some clamps. They're not very expensive.
Speaker: And i think that the there are like ah tool libraries and places like that, right? Yeah, you can rent things as well.
Speaker: to to To do up a simple box, you probably need, like like you said, glue, wood glue, um clamps, the lumber itself, the wood itself. um You have to cut it.
Speaker: So you need some sort of saw, and you will need clamps. Those are all the those two things. and Yeah, those are the things that you're going to need. But yeah I'm looking forward to seeing different ways of doing it and then actually like using my hands.
Speaker: And then get creative. do Do some different stuff and go to the lumber yard. There's a place called Rockler. i don't know if they have them where you are, but Rockler um is a great place that is in multiple states. that does, um they have all kinds of things and the people there are very friendly too as well. So if you say, hey. There's one here.
Speaker: Yeah, there you go right? Rockler is a great place to go. what they have ah you have classes, this one here. They have one to make a bandsaw box. I don't know what a bandsaw is, but it it looks very, cool it looks too cool for me to do as a starting box, but very nice. this is a So yeah, that's y'all's assignment. hey thank you. I'm excited. to ask Me too. You'll be fine. You'll be fine. You'll have all your figures. Trust me. and
Speaker: Yep. Yep. I think. We'll be back with all 10 fingers and right maybe a box. We'll see. Maybe a box.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much for talking to us about your interest and um getting us excited about it too. And telling us about like, I didn't know.
Speaker: Basically anything that you just said, i don't think I knew any of it before. Yeah, yeah I know I can kind of drone on a little bit. I was just thinking about I did not even know the difference between carpentry, woodworking. I knew what turning, but like I didn't know there's a difference there. i definitely didn't know that a DUI case and a box had such similarities.
Speaker: Oh, that's a good hook. What does a box and a DIY have in Tune in to find out.
Speaker: Started on our boxes. We could do it, Patty. Yeah, awesome. Thanks lot. Yes, we can. You guys got it. And everybody listening, be sure to stay interesting. And stay interested. Goodbye. Bye.
Speaker: Thanks for listening to today's episode. Please subscribe, comment, and like the podcast. Follow us on Blue Sky Social at CanWeInterestYouIn. Send us an email at CanWeInterestYouIn at gmail.com. And join us next time.
