Transcript
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Speaker: Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by fantasy middle grade author and web developer, Oliver Linden. Hello.
Speaker: Hello, Jamie. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. We we talked a bit before, but we are surviving the heat. yeah Hopefully it's going to cool down a bit in the UK because we're not built for it, I think, in in this country.
Speaker: No, we're definitely not. Let's um jump in then and talk about you and your writing and your soon to be released book, No Tune Ned.
Speaker: Tell us a little bit about the story. So yes, No Tune Ned is a middle grade fantasy set in a fantasy kingdom called Dravenloch. And in this kingdom is where music is magic.
Speaker: ah So 11-year-old Ned Numbles, as the main character, he desperately wants to be a bard. But unfortunately, he's terrible at music. So so his whole ambition of the perfecting music and you know trying to impress his master is just not working. But suddenly a a villain of sorts called the Krooner Below starts using perfect music to control monsters and steal people's voices
Speaker: And that's when Ned discovers that the thing he's always seen as his biggest biggest weakness might actually be exactly what the kingdom needs. and That's a great pitch. I love that. I also love the crooner from below is a great name for a villain. So obviously music such a core part of this whole thing. Are you yourself a musician?
Speaker: No, I'm not. okay But um yeah, I mean, I've always had an appreciation for music and I feel like it kind of, I had a ah good understanding of how I could implement music. So even though I don't play any instruments, I ah still felt like I had a bit to add to the whole music side of the story.
Speaker: Okay. is ah Is there a part of you that is that relates to Ned and that like you you perhaps wanted to be a musician one day, but it wasn't in the cards for you? yeah Yeah, I mean, the the whole kind of... i mean, the idea was it really came back to me thinking of my own childhood because...
Speaker: ah You know, No Toon Net is, in a sense, all about imperfection and how, you you know, you never felt like you had that one thing you were particularly good at, while it seemed like everyone else did. So, you know you know, when you're at school, you always have that, always have children who are really good at playing an instrument, or they're really good at playing football, or they just, they were the funny one. But, um you know, that that eventually became...
Speaker: the question behind Ned is, you know, what if the thing everyone tells you you're bad at turns out to have value and precisely because you do it differently. So embracing your imperfection because you do it different to every everyone else.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. Yes. And that's a great sentiment, especially for like children's literature and things like that. way Yeah. you Yeah. you You want young minds to be open to the possibility that just because you don't do it the same doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely. And I mean, I've i've had um scenarios in ah you know where I've been thinking like, you know, going back to you know kids that are really good at football, there are some who you know might be not very good at it, but they play it because it's fun and because they enjoy it. And that's got even more value than...
Speaker: being amazing at it. And it's the same with writing for me, you know, I never, I never felt like I was ever going to be the best writer or, you be perfect at it, but I still, I still do it because I enjoy doing it.
Speaker: So, yeah. Yes. I think that's so important as well because people treat, People treat different hobbies differently, i find, especially as an adult. when When you're younger, people are much more flexible. But as you as you get older, it's like, um you know, if someone says, oh, I play you know i play on my in my Saturday football league or whatever it is, Sunday football league, And you're like, okay, cool. That's, that's like a fun thing that you do on the side. But then as a, as a writer, and I've talked about lots people like this, you're like, oh, ah I'm writing a novel or like I've written a novel. And then the first thing people will ask you is like, oh, well, where can I buy it? Has it been published yet? Yeah. And it's like, you're not asking the Sunday league football player when they're turning pro. You know mean? Yeah. Yeah. It can just be a hobby and I think that's that's an important message and it's great that you like you're kind of saying that out of the gate here and being like, i just you know i would I would write just because the joy of writing.
Speaker: Yeah. And I've, I've always, even when I started writing, you know, I did write as a child and then kind of fell off it a bit as I went through school and I got back into it, you know, the last few years, but I never had it in my mind that i was ever going to publish anything like that would, you know, be on a bookshelf. I think I count myself really lucky that, you know, No TuneNet is actually being traditionally published and I've managed to get as far as I am. I, you know, I never say that you,
Speaker: you can't achieve what you set out to, but I never started to thinking I was ever, you know, making a career out of it or, you know, trying to, ah essentially achieve, achieve something basically.
Speaker: Yeah, no, no, I see what you're saying. Yeah. You had your, your, your kind of, uh, what you saw as success was not necessarily like must be published, must then set up future career as author.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, okay. So you said you started writing pretty young, then took a bit of a break and start again. So i would imagine you you've been a reader your whole life. And I saw on your website that you are a Terry Pratchett fan.
Speaker: Yeah. I love Terry Pratchett. I mean, he's one of the all timers. He is one of the all timers. Yeah. Interestingly too, he, he's kind of, and it's not, it's not, would say it's uncommon, probably not rare, but he's an author where I would say his writing spans all age groups. Like you can read that as a, as a, like pretty young. And then you can also read it as an adult. And there's, there's so much for kind of both age groups. Um,
Speaker: When you're reading, obviously, you know, this is your, your debut kind of traditionally published novel. You've, you've self-published two children's books when you're reading. Do you mainly read books that are accessible to younger people, or do you also go through some more adult works?
Speaker: i I've got quite a lot of the moment that I just read anything and everything. Yeah, I mean, my bookshelf is filled. I've got loads of middle grade books.
Speaker: I've got loads. I've got, you know, all the Witcher books, for example. I've got Star Wars books. I've got comics. I've got um a different variety of sci-fi books and fantasy. yeah,
Speaker: ah In all honesty, I kind of, when it comes to reading, I don't know what I actually want to read. i kind of, I always judge it, like if I'm in a bookshop and I see... ah you know, a cover that really stands out to me and then I read the back and it sounds interesting, I'm probably just going to pick it up and buy it. And that's a really bad mindset as well because I'm wasting a lot of money on books I'm not sure about. But, you know, we it we have like such a diverse choice that it's probably, it's never worth just putting something down because,
Speaker: you didn't connect with it or you, you know, you didn't think it was good. If you, if you know immediately, know I'm not going to like that and fair enough, but I felt like I'd miss out on so many great stories if I just didn't pick it up and go with it.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes, obviously we should not judge a book by its cover, but what I will say is if you, if you do pick up a book that has a beautiful cover and you end up not liking the book, at least you have a beautiful book in your bookshelf.
Speaker: True. Yes. and i At least it's not going to look a bit weird with all the others. At least it will stand out. so Yeah, exactly. i mean, there's a, cause conversely, there's a couple of books that I have that I think are incredible books, but I, I'm just really not a fan of the cover. And I'm like, I'm not, i need to tuck this away in the bookshop somewhere because it's just ruining the vibe.
Speaker: that's what That's what the back shelf is for. Nobody can see yes yeah, yeah. can hide them behind there. The drawers and things. Yeah. um Okay, so so you read you'll read kind of any age and not just prose. You're in graphic novels and things like that too, comics. um But it sounds like you're very much within a sci-fi fantasy sphere.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. Have you read Dungeon Crawler Carl? I have, yes. Oh my God, that's so good. Only book one, because i'm I'm one of those people that I i bought the hardback of Dungeon Crawler Crawl and I kind of, I got about halfway through and then I switched to the audio book.
Speaker: Oh, okay. and i And I finished the audio book and then it was amazing. You know, they do such great work on that and like the the production and the voice acting is incredible. It's like you're actually there.
Speaker: um And I got to the end of that and thought, I really want to read book two, but I know the paperbacks are going to come out in the yeah UK, so I kind of want to wait and get all the paperbacks and then okay read them that way. um Because, yeah, i I do have some hardbacks in my collection, but are they just it's just ruin the the flow with all my other paperbacks. so Okay. yeah but But, yeah, Dungeon Crawl Cars is amazing. Highly recommend it if you're you know into that kind of...
Speaker: you know, lit RPG. okay Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought I thought would ask because I yeah read the whole thing in like two months obsessed and I was like, you seem like the kind of person that this would really be a sweet spot for.
Speaker: Yeah, and it's really weird as well because online I see loads of people who like just say how bad it is when like their whole kind of vibe is the gaming kind of... Yeah, so it's just a bit weird. It's a bit like Marmite, isn't it? There's people that just love it and then people that just...
Speaker: don't like it for some reason, but everyone's... I've not encountered many people that don't like it A couple of my friends but were apathetic about it and I'm like, fine, not your cup of tea. But ah I mean, it's it's huge. It's going to take over the world soon. and the The TV show sounds like it's going to be such high budget.
Speaker: Anyway, let's get back onto you. um No Tune Nerd is being published by... Everything With Words, which is um an indie press that I've not had too much contact with. So was that through open submission? Is that is that how they find their authors?
Speaker: yes so Yes, it was open submission last year. A temporary thing. Yeah, they show um the lady who who runs it, she's called Mika and she's lovely. And she did um a small window where she opened for submissions from ah you know authors without agents. And that was last, I think that was that was beginning of August, that was last year. So it's been it's been one whole year since...
Speaker: I ah sent my submission to her. And um it's quite funny because um up until that point, I was i was querying NoTuneNet from probably about end of May until around that August.
Speaker: um And I didn't really, you know, again, with querying, I was getting a lot of um positive rejections, as as you as you get, um and a few kind comments about how they thought it just wasn't right for them.
Speaker: um So this kind of was like not the last ditch effort, but I saw that she had opened and I i queried her and she replied within an about four hours saying she loved the idea. And I sent her the full manuscript and we went from there. So...
Speaker: it was It was very much a, um I say this to quite a lot of my friends and other authors who are querying, that it's all about finding that right person to champion your story.
Speaker: Yes. You know, if I hadn't a queried her, I don't think Ned would probably exist at this point. It might, but I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent.
Speaker: Cause it's, you know, you only need, you can, it doesn't matter if you get a hundred no's, you just need one yes. Yeah. And then that's not now you're on the way. Um, and you mentioned that it was submissions for unagented authors. Am I right in thinking that you, you are, you're currently um not with an agent.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm still still an we're still without an agent, but i'm I am querying a new project at the moment, so ah still trying, as they say. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and you you had queried agents before sending it to everything with words. Yeah.
Speaker: Did you also send off to like competitions and things? um Yes, I sent off to one competition last year. i can't recall what it was, but I didn't hear anything back. Okay.
Speaker: but But, you know, there's so so many so many authors out there and so many different stories that sometimes when you click submit on yeah a query or a competition, you just got to put it in the back of your mindset that, right, forget about that one, move on to the next one, because, you you know, the best mentality is not to expect a reply.
Speaker: No, exactly. And given how you've kind of come into this saying that, you know, like you, you, you did this first and foremost for the joy of writing. What was it? Was there a part of you that just thought, well, let's, you know, I've written this book and I'm happy with it. Let's see how far it can go. And is that why you started sort of querying and things like that?
Speaker: ah Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, going going back before No Tune Ned, I was, um the two self-published books I did, they were Emily's Cosmic Journey. They were, um you know, they were inspired by my daughter who was born, she was born at the end of 2023. And i was kind of, I'm going a bit off topic here, but it's a bit, ah i was I was in that kind of,
Speaker: that state of where, you know, you've got a newborn, life has completely changed. um And kind of, that's when I just jumped back into writing. I thought it was very, it was very therapeutical at the time. It was something I could switch my mind off and,
Speaker: just it's kind kind of relaxing and really it really helped my ah mental health at the time um and that's where i based those stories on emily so my daughter and i you know that's where i got back into the joy of writing and it wasn't until ah kind of finished that first book i kind of started writing no tune ned and i kind of had that mindset of this feels like a bit of a different project this still was like you know Hopefully, it could be that step step above that could potentially be traditionally published. and i
Speaker: ah believe it was around about early 2025 when I'd kind of finished that first draft, and I... I sent it to a few, you know, a few of my friends and someone to, to beta read. And they kind of said, um you know, this is really good. You know, what are you going to do with it? And I kind of said, you know, might self publish. And I think one of my friends just said, well, why don't you just send it to some agents, see what happens. And I kind of,
Speaker: I stuck with that and kind of polished it a bit more. And that's when in May, I just thought, right, yeah, I'll just try and see what happens. And if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't, you know, it's not. So yeah, that's kind of where that went. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, you know, you are still very much viewing this as like sort of hobby plus, like yeah you weren't invested in being like, oh, this needs to sell. I need to make money on this. Oh, no, I i i still count myself lucky that i'm making any money out of any book I've ever put together. So yeah, I don't see this as...
Speaker: ah you you know if it did become a full-time career that's plus but yeah yeah but i don't i don't have that mindset currently no okay it sounds like your friends that were reading this are are they also writers they it sounds like they're kind of at least to some degree clued into publishing if they knew that the next step was to send to agents Yeah, well what one of my one of my friends, um so I met them a few years ago on Instagram, and they were they were writing books, and they hadn't actually ah traditionally published, but they had self-published, and they kind of clued me in, because i will i will be happily I can happily admit that
Speaker: when I was writing in those early stages, I had no idea how the publishing world worked. I, I had a very crash course on self publishing and learn about, you know, ah ah yeah ISBNs and how Amazon's metadata works and stuff like that. And it's still to, to this day, it's still mind boggles me. Some of the stuff that have to learn and, know, putting a book together is, is ah an achievement in itself. So, yes um anyone who, anyone who publishes anything deserves a round of applause because it is hard work. Um, but yeah, that, that friend was really, really helpful. And they kind of, they told me like, this is the other way, you know, you, you can sell publishing one, but there are agents out there. There are these, um, you know, these publishers out there who, if your story is right for them, they will, they will offer you a chance. So yeah, I kind of,
Speaker: I kind of in in that moment, there was that little spark in me thinking, oh, maybe I could do this. And that's where yeah I thought if if they don't give it a try, another no. Exactly. And you you really have nothing to lose. Like it doesn't take if you've written the book already, it doesn't take you long to mock up like a a submission page, like a a subnoious synopsis and all of that stuff. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And the worst they can do is say no. i would actually say, you know, you said you got a number of polite redirections and like, that's, in in the kind of modern landscape, that's actually better than most. Like a lot of the time there is, you know, it's become, and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing.
Speaker: Agents have more ah submissions than they ever have. So like I don't expect them to reply to every single one, but like it is quite common to be ghosted. So the fact that you were getting ah personally written rejections, I think is a good sign of things that like you were onto something with that.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, definitely. um And i and i know, you know not not saying that I know the agent side, but I know that there's probably some agents out there that when they open for queries, they get like hundreds or thousands a month or hundreds a day, yeah hundreds a week. So you can't you can't logically expect them to reply to every single one because they've got their own clients to to worry about. And this is just their kind of...
Speaker: I was going to say past time. It's not really a past time, but their thing on the side trying to find new clients, isn't It's not their actual full-time job. So... i can I can understand, their side. It's extracurricular for them. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. And I've spoken to lots of agents on here. And and yeah, you're right. I mean, some of the the more renowned agents are getting like 200 submissions a week, probably more now that AI is everywhere.
Speaker: Well, yeah, it's probably like tripled. And I mean, you could you could easily tell you from yeah from the email being sent. Okay, this might not be the person, but yeah. Yeah. I get loads now of AI written emails about the podcast. And like, it's, I used to have to like think about it and now I, you just see it. Like, I can't explain why, but I could, you just see it in the first few sentences and you're like, oh yeah, this isn't a human.
Speaker: Yeah. um but of ba bar So we are at the point where I ask you, Oliver, if you were snowed in at a cozy woodland cabin in the middle of nowhere, which book would you hope to have with you?
Speaker: Wow. I could... I could just give the favourite book answer. um Yeah, it's going to be my favourite book. It's going to be Mort by Terry Pratchett. um it's It's just one of those books where as a child and as I've grown up, it's that perfect blend of humour and heart.
Speaker: And actually, that's kind of what I've... mashed into No Toon Net as well is um I always found that that that book when I was reading it, it had that that really unique way of making me laugh at one moment and making my heart tear into pieces in the next because it was just it just had had that great swing and yeah you know Terry Pratchett is and Like we said, he's one of the all time greats and the way he writes, I don't think anyone else is ever going to come close to it. So he's got that uniqueness and I, yeah, if I was stuck in that cabin, I'd probably go with more because that would, that would keep me entertained for long enough to be rescued, hopefully.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, i've said it so many times on the podcast, because Terry Pratchett's one of my favorites too, is the, it's so you can, you know you could replicate the kind of humor and things like that, but there's something about the combination of heart with the humor, with the just total disregard for what people often regard as the in quotes, rules of writing. um Yeah, he's absolutely one of one. Have you read a lot of Terry Pratchett's?
Speaker: uh i would love to say that i've read all of this world but i haven't i haven't read all of them i've probably probably i've probably read almost about half i reckon okay so about i think there's 42 books 43 yeah about that so i've read i think i've read about 18 to 20 odd okay so good amount yeah A good amount to know what he's trying to tell.
Speaker: yeah Yes. And the sort of the the undercurrents of like the real emotions and the heart but but between each of the the stories in that kind of world. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: If you had a, what would your second choice Terry Pratchett be? if If Mort was taken? If Mort was taken, ooh, that's not fair. ah cro Probably, you know, i'll I'll go with The Color of Magic, the first one, because yeah that was, um i mean, I read them out of order and I don't think that there is an order technically. but It's debated though. it' a debate I've seen online, people say don't start with Color of Magic, even though it technically is the first one.
Speaker: yeah um i mean yeah i i would go with color of magic because it's while it is meant to be the start it i don't know that that world that introduction to this world and like those opening chapters um for me i'm trying to remember when i first read it it was must have been like i'm probably gonna say a really bad age now i must have been like 12, 13, 14, something like that.
Speaker: And it's, you know, I, you know read other books that were actually for my age group and, you know, loved them. And then when, ah when you read this the first time, you're like, this is crazy. How can someone, like, how can this story exist? It's like, so, yeah, I'd go with Colour and Magic, but there there was loads to choose from. That's quite, it's quite hard.
Speaker: ah that Yeah, there's, he he rarely missed ah Terry Pratchett. All of them are so good. um Next up, we are going to chat about, we're going to go back a bit, talk about when Oliver first started writing and everything that he learned from his self-publishing experience ahead of his traditional debut. That will all be available in the extended episode, which you can find at patreon.com forward slash right and wrong. but You know, in the beginning you have that that hint of jealousy that that person's doing amazing, their book's on the shelf, but yeah you know, everyone's got their own journey to where they want to go. and
Speaker: you know, there might be someone who's looking at me going, Oh, how amazing is he? Probably not, but, but yeah, everyone's got their own journey and we should, you know, don't ever feel jealous about anyone else getting there before you or doing something bad because still just be bigging each other up. Really just celebrating.
Speaker: that Exactly. a rising tide raises all ships. Definitely. Yeah, absolutely. Amazing. Well, that is a wonderful sentiment to end the episode on. So thank you so much, um Oliver, for coming on and chatting with me and telling us all about your your debut traditional publication, No Tune Ned, which is out on the 27th of August. um It's been so interesting and fun chatting with you.
Speaker: Likewise, thank you, Jamie, for having me on. It's been brilliant. And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Oliver is doing, you can find him on Instagram at Oliver Linden Author or on his website, OliverLinden.com.
Speaker: To support the podcast, but like, follow and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes. Thanks again to Oliver and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.
