Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
We Don’t Have an Auroch in This Arena: A Discussion about Potentially the Oldest Evidence for the Bow-And-Arrow in Europe - Ruins 146
1.2k Plays1 year ago
On this episode the lads dive into the exciting world of Upper Paleolithic archaeology by discussing our thoughts on the recent Scientific Advances article Bow-and-arrow, technology of the first modern humans in Europe 54,000 years ago at Mandrin, France by Metz et al. 2023. Does the conversation go off the rails? Absolutley.
If you have left a podcast review on iTunes or Spotify, please email us at alifeinruinspodcast@gmail.com so we can get shipping information to send you a sticker.
If you are listening to this episode on the "Archaeology Podcast Network All Shows Feed," please consider subscribing to the "A Life in Ruins Podcast" channel to support our show. Listening to and downloading our episodes on the A Life in Ruins channel helps our podcast grow. So please, subscribe to the A Life in Ruins Podcast, hosted by the Archaeology Podcast Network, on whichever platform you use to listen to us on the "All Shows Feed." Please support our show by following our channel.
Transcripts
For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/ruins/146
Literature Recommendations
- Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54,000 years ago at Mandrin, France by Slimak et al. 2022
- Bow-and-arrow, technology of the first modern humans in Europe 54,000 years ago at Mandrin, France by Metz et al. 2023
Contact
- Email: alifeinruinspodcast@gmail.com
- Instagram: @alifeinruinspodcast
- Facebook: @alifeinruinspodcast
- Twitter: @alifeinruinspod
- Website: www.alifeinruins.com
- Ruins on APN: https://www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com/ruins
- Store: https://www.redbubble.com/people/alifeinruins/shop
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store
Affiliates
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
You're
Introduction and Setting the Stage
00:00:01
Speaker
listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
Human Capabilities and Humor
00:00:22
Speaker
We near the shorts are here with our ability to make fire our ability to speak a foreign language and make stone tools using the levitation technique Not levitation, but we're intelligent and complex man. Come on That's why I've sent vice pina colada hair lip to launch a full-scale attack on the homo carbatheans and kick them out of native fall territory
00:00:41
Speaker
Even though they're extremely attractive, I would love to sex time with them and smell their hair. They have these bow and tarot card things. Not bow and tarot cards, man. Bow and arrow things, man. They're bad dudes, man. They can launch their small and large PPs from long distances. Just like, you know, Neanderthals use thrusting beer. Not thrusting beers. Spears, man. We gotta get these guys.
00:01:04
Speaker
Don't worry, though.
Podcast Announcements and Archaeology Paper
00:01:06
Speaker
Uncle President Joe Rogan Thall is on the case. Because Indiana Jones, illogically, without the preserved shafts and their project miles, there's no way to know for sure if they even had Johnny Jebb blow technologies. Not, not, not, not blow technology, man. It's a bunch of malarkey. Today, we're going to talk about... You broke Carlton!
00:01:34
Speaker
While you guys are doing the outline, I wrote that piece of gold. Okay. All right. And for reference, if you guys haven't seen it, Kyle Dunnegan, Joe Biden Impression, it's the best. All right. So today we're going to talk about a new paper that came out.
Bow and Arrow Technology in Early Humans
00:01:50
Speaker
Oh, I guess welcome to episode 146 of A Life from Rules podcast. I'm muted. Carlton, you are muted. So we just had a conversation about being careful.
00:02:03
Speaker
And David just starts off with the homosexuals are invading.
00:02:08
Speaker
I correct it, it wasn't homosexual, it was a homo erectus, man. Homo homo sapiens. So here's the deal. Welcome to episode 146 of A Life in Your Hand's podcast. I'm your host, David Howe, and I'm driven by my co-host, Connor Jahnen and Carlton Schill, the professor extraordinaire. We're today talking about a new paper from Laurie Metz, more of a Yankees fan, and it's the bow and arrow technology of the first modern humans in Europe 54,000 years ago at Manbeam, France.
00:02:37
Speaker
Yeah, we're going to set the stage a little bit more. So the time period that this paper is referencing is called the Upper Paleolithic in Europe. Carlton is still broken, like some of these stone tool technologies. He's been thrown against the wall. The Upper Paleolithic in Europe. So we got at least two different species of humans, right? So we got to define species, but for the lack of a better term, yes.
00:03:07
Speaker
We have different types of humans. We've gone over this podcast before. It's homo sapien andrythalensis and hopo sapien. Yes. So same species, just different sub species species.
Human Species Debate and Migration
00:03:22
Speaker
What episode is that was like an early on argument about a long time ago. Yeah. We did a promo too. There was a commercial that we recorded. Do you remember that?
00:03:31
Speaker
We did. I do remember the promo. He'll lumpers and splitters. I'll just say it really quickly. You got Homo erectus, leave Africa, and they go into Europe, into Asia. Those kind of evolve into their own things, which are Neanderthals and then Denisovans. And then modern humans are constantly boiling and interbreeding in Africa, and then they leave and replace those Neanderthal and Denisovan populations and all interbreed
Neanderthal vs. Homo Erectus Technologies
00:03:56
Speaker
together.
00:03:56
Speaker
which they were all in a breeding. So in a sense, I would say we're all just mutant homo erectus, but the purposes of this paper, it's like there's Neanderthals in Europe and then there's modern humans coming into Europe.
00:04:12
Speaker
And Neanderthals and Homo erectus are doing pretty distinct stone tool technology associated with the Mysterian stone tool tech. Lots of blades, is that right?
00:04:28
Speaker
What's Mustarian? Mustarian is like the Neanderthal tool complex. That's not the level technique. It's just like, like choppers, axes, kind of bifacial looking things. There are some blades associated with them too. And like triangular points, right? I'm trying to think about it without looking at it. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Uh, triangle points, both, uh, both of them have bifacial technology. Homo erectus does as well.
00:04:55
Speaker
But they look different than what Homo erectus is using, which is the Shulian stone tool technology. I feel like the people give judgment on the more primitive, less primitive, but they're just different technologies.
Stone Tool Technologies Explained
00:05:16
Speaker
Yeah, and you could even like argue that you could separate the species like quote unquote species through their cultural complexes of tools More so than they like bodies, but I think the conventional wisdom would be to just separate them by their biology That's kind of what most people are familiar with but yeah It took me a year to be able to make it actually in hand acts like just like without having to think really hard about it so yeah, and they're they're they're bifacially worked and you know this the use for analysis and
00:05:45
Speaker
impact fractures, et cetera, really show that they're these multi-use tools. They're the Swiss army knives of stone tool technology for Homo erectus.
00:05:56
Speaker
Yeah. Trying to think what else. So yeah, that's kind of what's going on. Generally wants to hear it. Yeah. We have evidence of Homo erectus doesn't foray into Europe, but it's not like battening down the hatches and really investing and getting far. Yeah. And as we were talking about before the show, like Homo erectus
00:06:21
Speaker
is like more known for being an Asian species where it's homo or gaster is more associated with Europe. But I think Carlton pointed out they're mostly just in Southern Europe, like in the Iberian Peninsula. So I can't recall off the top of my head, but I just know that people lump them into two different species, but they're kind of just the East and West variant. Yeah. And if this is complicated to anyone out there, it's complicated to us as well. I think we just spent, what, 30 minutes trying to align this perfectly and we still are not aligned perfectly.
Origins of Projectile Technology
00:06:50
Speaker
So Neanderthals are more known for their thrusting spears, as Uncle Joe Broganthal said. And that might be why their skeletons are extremely battered. They think it might be interpersonal violence, or it's just somewhat like they were falling all the time down cliffs. It was the ice age. It was cold. They're wrestling a lot, maybe. Or the more logical thing would be like,
00:07:12
Speaker
You can't tell, you can't distinguish interpersonal violence from walking up to a rhino and getting gored by it pretty like easily with a thrusting spear. I mean, you can see parry wounds on arms that happens sometimes, but you also have to parry like an animal that's charging you. So it's hard to determine, but the point being, they, they use thrusting spears. There's not a lot of evidence. And I would say not any of Neanderthals using projectile technology, like they just didn't have it.
00:07:38
Speaker
And during this time, there's not really good evidence for Homo erectus using it.
00:07:43
Speaker
either, right? Are the Schoeningen spears, are those homo erectus? I can't remember. I think those are, they might be Neanderthal, but I think they're, they're thrusting spears. That would be shea, shea at all. We don't conventionally think of them as using projectile technology during this time. Um, the earliest evidence we have at least indirect for use of the atlatl is from Australia from mongo man. And that's because of atlatl elbow. Is that what it is?
00:08:13
Speaker
Yeah, so like that would be the biological evidence for it. Atlatl elbow is like a distinct pathology that you see on Homo sapien. I think it's their radius, I want to say. Like down at the very, like where the humerus meets the radius and ulna. It's like a spur that kind of grows on your arm from repeated use of throwing an atlatl. And Mungo Man in Australia has that in Lake Mungo where they found his body and that's about 42,000 years old.
00:08:40
Speaker
the idea that at-lateral technologies existed for at least 70,000 or so years in Africa, but I can't for the life of me remember the citation for that.
00:08:52
Speaker
But like the first like direct evidence we have of it where we actually have a dart attached to Or at some point attached to a dart is 17,000 years ago and that's in either France or Spain or Germany. Yeah in France. Okay Where we actually get the preservation of that so it's it's believed to be The direct evidence is believed to be earlier than bow technology. Yes, that would be the conventional wisdom
00:09:22
Speaker
Yeah. So the earliest, at least indirect evidence for the appearance of bow and arrow technology comes from a Cebudu cave. South Africa. Yeah. In South Africa. And it's around like 70,000 years ago. Yeah. That's an interesting one too. Cause they're like little blade looking things, but they were found in like piled on top of each other in like what would have been like a quiver or a pouch.
00:09:51
Speaker
Cause it's just where they were all laid in a similar direction. Like it'd be weird if they were just thrown into a bag, but they were probably attached to the end of either sticks or something that you were like a rudimentary arrow. I think that's pretty good evidence of that, but it could be something else. That's combined with like use wear too. Right. And I believe, uh, yeah, you swear and I believe there's residue analysis on it too. If I might be conflating it with something else, but you guys can look that up.
00:10:17
Speaker
Yeah, but we don't, at that point, we don't have a projectile point attached to a arrow. That comes much later, around 10,000 years ago, in Stellmore, Germany. So later, in theory, than that little technology, but kind of coming from the same area, which is really interesting, I think, that they're all kind of coming from the same area.
00:10:45
Speaker
Yeah, and I also, when I was doing my thesis on this, I think it was kind of interesting that I was finding very similar dates for the invention of both. My thought on that would be that's when you can see the stone versions of them, but if you just think about it, if there's a lot of things we could postulate or ponder about,
00:11:05
Speaker
technology in the past, and at-lateral is inherently way more simple than stringing together a bow and like making all the sin, you know, so it's just like, just logically it's a similar, simpler technology. We don't know like if that was invented first or not, but you could see
00:11:22
Speaker
Like I guess just play with me here. There's just a sharpened long stick and then another ship stick that has like an L shape to it. You're throwing an atlatl. That's all you need. But an arrow is inherently more complex, but you can also just have a wooden one. So you wouldn't see that either. So I would argue that the atlatl was a far older technology because it's just so much easier to.
00:11:43
Speaker
to just make but we don't know that because like if they had some kind of cordage you could have pretty much figure out like if I pull it tight and like do that like the ethnomusicology guy we had was saying you could make like a jaw harp out of it too like we have no idea. I mean they're still both complex tools. Yeah they're simple machines. Yeah and they're compound I mean like it's easy to talk about these things today but
00:12:10
Speaker
the logical leap to make a six foot long dart and attach it to another, it's still extremely complex. Like theoretically, like bare bones you looked at too, you'd be like, okay, yeah, that can see the bow being more complex than the idolatile, but even just that first, making the first idolatile is still just like, that's still a huge fucking transition.
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah, because like it's so different from like previous technologies where you don't have any sort of compound sort of technology. And they're more likely like the delivery system is different, but without the at-lateral dart, which is also probably fletched and hafted, you don't get arrows.
00:12:55
Speaker
They're both very complex. So I mean, just like, just, and that's not saying David's wrong. Cause I'm not, I'm just saying like for our audience, the wrong for someone to come up with this to be like, what if I made this giant, cause I want to kill something, but it's 30 feet away from me and I don't want to move. You know, like that's, that's a huge leap in human thinking.
00:13:16
Speaker
Yeah. Cause you're, you're already throwing spears, but like, then you would just be like, uh, maybe you launched it up your foot one day and you're like, well, that was cool. Like, let me make something that replicates my foot. Um, how do we know the earliest dates for the earliest spear? Shrown engine spears. The only thing I can think of, there's probably some in Africa, but again, Homo erectus probably just had sharpened sticks that they burned over a fire. We have no idea, no way to see it.
00:13:43
Speaker
Yeah. And also like there's a, there is a sampling bias definitely towards Europe, which is like what they were talking about earlier. Why do we see a lot more physical evidence in Europe? It's because Europe is far more archeologically investigated than the second continent of the world. Yeah. Is it really? Yeah. Africa is number two Asia, Africa.
00:14:07
Speaker
Oh, I thought even Europe. I was like, I feel like Europe's like the smallest. No, no, no, no. Africa's huge and also rife with geopolitical conflict, making it difficult and blah, blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada. Yeah.
Spread and Impact of Technology
00:14:18
Speaker
I thought I was always, I was talking with Todd, Todd Servile and Spencer the other day, and I was like,
00:14:24
Speaker
You know, making that first step, you know, creating technology is hard. I do think replication from there is much easier. Like that makes sense. Yeah, I produce it. But like, oh, that person was using a stick on another stick. I think I can reproduce that and create it for myself.
00:14:44
Speaker
Yeah. And like, I would be curious to know like a baby. Would they figure out a lever technology first or would they figure out a spring technology first? And like, not to say that humans are infantile, but like you just, I'd be curious to know which one comes first. I assume lever, but like with a toy that has strings on it, you also then have a spring. So like, don't know.
00:15:05
Speaker
Yeah, but when we see these things invented, we kind of see them widespread pretty quickly. It's not just like, it's not a slow burn. It spreads pretty quickly, which is really interesting. Yeah. Well, according to Graham Hancock, it's because the Atlanteans
00:15:42
Speaker
what is going on in Europe during the UP. And we're not talking about the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, we're talking about Upper Paleolithic. Yes. And so the impetus for this is a recent article that came out in Science Advances.
00:15:52
Speaker
On that note, we'll be right back.
00:15:58
Speaker
It is a research article titled bow and arrow technology of the first modern humans in Europe, 54,000 years ago at Mandarin France. And this is by Lorraine Metz et al. And they don't have an abstract, but I have an introduction. I'm looking right at it. Oh, yes.
00:16:19
Speaker
Consensus in archaeology is positive that mechanically propelled weapons such as the bow and arrow or spear throw or dart combinations appear to propel in the Eurasian record with the arrival of anatomically and behaviorally modern humans in the upper Paleolithic. Hashtag UP. I mean, parentheses UP after 45,000 to 42,000 years ago. While evidence for weapon use during the preceding Middle Paleolithic MP in Eurasia remains sparse.
00:16:42
Speaker
The ballistic features of MP points suggest that they were used on hand-cast spears, whereas upper paleolithic, lithic weapons are focused on micro-lith technologies, commonly interpreted as mechanically propelled projectiles, a crucial innovation distinguishing UP societies from preceding ones. Here we present the earliest evidence for mechanically propelled projectile technology in Eurasia from layer E of Grotte Mantrin 54,000 years ago in Mediterranean France, demonstrated via use-wear and impact damage analysis.
00:17:09
Speaker
these technologies associated with the oldest modern human remains currently known from Europe represent the technical background of these populations during the first incursion to the continent. I don't like how they say weapons. Was that? Yeah. That's a loaded term. It's buzzword. Yeah. I don't necessarily have too many qualms with it, but I like, I didn't think about that point until right now when you pointed out like we shouldn't
00:17:36
Speaker
Like we should just say projectile technology or tool.
Lithic Technology and Arrowheads
00:17:40
Speaker
Yeah. Like it's just like weapon, a little more woke, but no weapon to me just comes across as like hunting people implement. Right. But not just trying to kill people. That's what it is. But yeah, weapon, weapon sounds more like killing other people. Whereas tool sounds like use something to hunt.
00:18:01
Speaker
Like I would I would bet it's more of a, you know, hunting technology. Much like a modern hunting rifle as a way of life and not a weapon. Hey, it's my home defense rifle. That's right. Your AR. My semi auto AR. For like 100, 100 meters or whatever. Yeah. If you had to pick to defend a home with a six shooter and AR, I'm a pick here.
00:18:33
Speaker
Anyway, you go shotgun. Shotgun's the foolproof. I would just use a Kentucky long rifle because, fuck it, might as well. I'd use a Game of Shepherd. I'm gonna use a Canon. It's good for like... I'm gonna use a Blunderbuss.
00:18:53
Speaker
The ancient blunderbusses would be projectile MPPs. They're calling a modern project or mechanical projectile was saying
00:19:04
Speaker
Oh, that's the UK guys, right? The MPs? Yeah, military police. What are they calling it? It is MP, middle school. Yes. I mean, one of the big mechanically propelled projectiles technology. There we go. Yeah. So they're suggesting that what they're seeing in this cave in France, based on the lithic debutage now, like some of the things we talked about in the last segment,
00:19:32
Speaker
We're not, there's no evidence for the wooden arrow shaft or fletching, right? This is just analyzing the lithic technology and they're analyzing these points and suggesting that they're arrowheads.
Cultural Significance of Tools
00:19:50
Speaker
So there's no, so this is like circumstantial evidence, which is great. We do that all the time in archaeology.
00:19:56
Speaker
And in the courts. Yep. However, for our American audience, which we're used to some of the most gorgeous and well-worked lithic technologies in the entire world, the European points were much more blade. Yeah. They're very unifacial. I like if I saw one of these in like an American context, like David has said, it looks like a blade or a scraper or shatter.
00:20:23
Speaker
But these folks are suggesting that these are arrowheads and they have some science behind it. Um, but this is out of my wheelhouse. Yeah. What I'd like to, I'm sorry, I forgot, but what I'd like to see is like a comparison of, cause they have a table, table one, the values and statistical results for archaeological experimental and ethnographic points.
00:20:46
Speaker
I would very much like to see these data in comparison to like North American blade technology, like the shatter and scrapers and see what the relationship is.
00:21:04
Speaker
I would like to say, looking at them, one, Europe has a lot more, I mean, they mostly have blade technology, so this isn't out of the norm for them. Here, I'd be like, what? Especially if this was a pre-Clovis site. We should probably talk about this in the third segment. This site, my first impression of this paper, it has a complex, they're uniformly made tools, and there's tools. There's more than four of them that are definable as tools. You can see the notchings are the,
00:21:31
Speaker
the flake scars on them and things, that's a tool. So like, this is the kind of stuff we're talking about when we see an article of something in the Americas that's really old. It doesn't look like this. Not to say that it should look European. I'm just saying like, this is like, okay, there's a culture of people here making this. Pre-cluba sites often are just like, you gotta squint your eye and look at it. Anyway, regardless, these look just like what those things in South Africa are in that little quiver-like formation. So to me, I think that is like fine. You don't even need like,
00:21:59
Speaker
Adhesive really you could just wedge these things in the end of a stick and use it as a thrusting thing But they are very tiny and that is a little sus to me. But then at the same time What are you using these for that tiny maybe cutting fiber? Leather working don't know but the use wear on it doesn't really indicate leather working to me. Huh? And then another thing
00:22:22
Speaker
I have, dude, this is so out of my wheelhouse. Like that, that's the issue. I want to ask you about the dates. What do you think about the dating techniques? The dates are fine. Okay. I mean, like it's, it's decent Bayesian. Like I got to see the supplementary files actually to really look at their code, but they do Bayesian in there.
Timeline of Human Presence in Europe
00:22:40
Speaker
And my guess is the dates are pretty good. My issue isn't necessarily with the dates, like it's with the attribution of these being humans. And so you have to go to an earlier article that, uh,
00:22:56
Speaker
as opposed to on on. And so it's slimmick at all. And science advances in a research, also a research article from 2022. And it's based on the same cave because it's the same same context. And they're saying that there are modern humans in Neanderthal territories 54,000 years ago in France, which is much earlier than what is believed humans reach Europe, like homo sapiens sapiens.
00:23:22
Speaker
Cause that's like what 35,000 years ago from like Turkey. Bro, like Lascaux and stuff is like 39,000 years old. Humans have been there for like a hundred thousand years. No, but when do modern humans get to Europe? Behaviorally modern? Well, that's the debate. Like, did they just wake up as behaviorally modern humans one morning or like, was it a culture spreading from Africa? But like I'd say.
00:23:47
Speaker
at least 50,000 years back to a hundred thousand years. This is, you know, I know that's not correct. Okay. I know they've been around for a hundred thousand years, but not in Europe part of that part of that whole thing. So the article talks about it like,
00:24:03
Speaker
the earliest first settlements of modern humans in Europe have been constrained to 45,000 to 43,000 years ago and starting in Greece. So now they're pushing humans into France 54,000 years ago. When's our Ignatian? Cause I know those are like the oldest like defined culture there. I mean, our
00:24:22
Speaker
One of those like, I know there's a debate that homeless- 43,000. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Early modern humans. Yep. Okay. You're right. Yeah. So, so now that we have 44, 40, 54,000 years ago in France, which is like, wait a minute. So this is kind of similar to like the pre Clovis Clovis thing. Like when we talk about, it's nowhere near as, as a stretch as Monteverde.
00:24:46
Speaker
But there is a gap between where we know humans are 54,000 years ago in Africa versus France. And so that's a whole different story. But the way they get to 54,000 years ago in France is it's not based on genetic material. It's based on dentition. So they looked at the people in the cave at these different levels.
00:25:10
Speaker
And based on that, they think some of those molars are human and the context of that has been dated 54,000 years. And they talk about in this paper, they were thinking about doing genetic analysis on the teeth there, but they did it on horses of similar age and they couldn't get the genetics out. So they didn't want to risk because like any sort of DNA analysis is going to be destructive.
00:25:36
Speaker
So they have a thing in this 2022 article, before deciding whether ancient DNA extraction of rare, precious hominin remains could be successful, we assessed the overall DNA preservation rate at mandarin using six equideath excavated from layers B to G. So that was their thing behind it.
00:25:53
Speaker
I don't know anything about dental morphology between anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals, but they use that as the basis to suggest
00:26:06
Speaker
I've got a couple of teeth. Once again, we're talking about paleoanthropology, which we have bitched about on this podcast about the lack of statistical data behind everything they do because they have so few remains that they're like, people are in France for 1000 years ago. That is, that's a big deal.
00:26:26
Speaker
take a word for it. That's a big deal. And then they use this to go for a supplementary paper. That's like, and by the way, those same humans that shouldn't be here also brought with them the bow like 10,000 years earlier too. And so my question is like, I don't have a dog in this fight or a cat or a rooster.
00:26:45
Speaker
whatever, if they are wrong, if those teeth are Neanderthal, that would then suggest Neanderthals had bow and arrow technology in Europe, which would be fucking revolutionary because we don't believe they had that and would therefore also upset our understanding of human Neanderthal interaction, technological replacement in species, stuff in Europe.
Neanderthal Technology Debate
00:27:14
Speaker
That's my, that's my critical lens. Looking at this is like, wait a moment, but I don't know anything about dentition. So I'm not going to say these people are wrong. They're experts in this field, but how different are Neanderthal teeth from human teeth?
00:27:31
Speaker
They're all two, one, two. Like we're all the same old world dentition, but like, I assume they have bigger mouths because their skulls are a little bigger, but like we were still in our breeding. So like one of them had a regular teeth. The next one was like changed. I like when it was.
00:27:58
Speaker
I didn't expect you guys to laugh at that so hard. Make a meme about that. But anyway, yeah, it's like, I don't think, I think getting into the weeds on that is like not really too like much about bow. I see your point, but.
00:28:13
Speaker
They would be revolutionary if it was actually Neanderthal, not homo sapien, but also like even the fact that humans are there in France that early also with the bow once again, circumstantial evidence because it's just the points. And I mean, I want to ask you, David, you did an experiment for your thesis in which you had like
00:28:31
Speaker
one style of projectile point made of obsidian, like 30 different sizes. How different? Like in terms of like an add a lot of point from a bow point, are we talking about that really affect transmission?
00:28:46
Speaker
I would say, yeah, well, I have multiple injuries to that, but Servel Wagesbach, Heinemann, and what's the other myth, buzzer's name, Savage, all have a paper together where you could use a bow and arrow with just a sharpened piece of wood, does the same thing. It doesn't bleed as well. Like the aerial gets kind of plugged in there like a suction, but the point then would help with the ripping of the flesh and like allow for bleeding better. But also I've talked with Nathaniel Kitchl about this. It's a professor at Dartmouth, I think he.
00:29:16
Speaker
Like essentially a point at the end is just wait like you just need something to like on the end of there to like make it fly better and that might put my experiment kind of showed that like wait really affects how the projectile goes but like those arrows without points on it still would have shot right there. You know, so how big were the biggest points?
00:29:36
Speaker
Biggest points for like 30 grams. They're big. They're chonkers. Like it was like a height like inches. Can you try to think they, they were basically like the size of like a regular Mississippian, like fat spearhead arrowhead at little dart. They look like knives. Like put, put it out. Like they're, they're big. I can't remember the slice and then we got to look it up. But
00:29:58
Speaker
With that being said, it's perfectly acceptable to me, especially if I want to go with the thing in South Africa being points. These look just like those. They look more like these than they don't. I don't want to say like Salutrien versus Clovis point, but these are pretty much the same thing. It wouldn't be crazy to me then that that technology diffused pretty quickly.
00:30:19
Speaker
to North Africa then and then that through the Levant or through Morocco into Europe and then Neanderthals adopted it because they weren't dumb. They could have figured it out what they had it traded to them but also like I think we often conflate like Neanderthals couldn't have done this because they're not as intelligent as people but like we forget that like much like Clovis to me it's a technology and a culture it's not a biology thing.
00:30:42
Speaker
So like, this is totally fine to me, especially if the dates are right. But like, whether it was Neanderthals, don't know if it was people. Sure. But again, like Carlton saying, Neanderthals were still pretty prevalent in Europe at this time. So then it would, it would scream Neanderthal. So I don't know.
00:30:58
Speaker
Yeah, this both these arguments hinge on like various circumstantial evidence. But I think that's my biggest beef with kind of these, these indirect arguments. And I'm not a use where analysis person. I'm not an impact fracture person. And maybe this shows really well in projectile points when you do experimental stuff, et cetera. But use where and impact fracture.
00:31:21
Speaker
as a marker for technology is hard for me to... I don't feel strongly and trust that data very much unless you're getting an actual arrow with a point on it or a dart with a point on it. If that preserves, that makes me feel good that that technology exists.
00:31:39
Speaker
But if we're going to look at points that had gone through a series of post-depositional processes, a crazy use life like that, I think there's a lot of error potentially within that to possibly get
00:31:54
Speaker
where things like that. I agree. Something I noticed about this paper too, the pictures of them screamed to me that it's possible. But their methods, I was like, I didn't figure out what they did.
00:32:10
Speaker
impacted them. Like maybe I just didn't read it correctly, but it didn't seem to compare. It wasn't like a full on fledged out experiment to
Challenges in Dating Artifacts
00:32:17
Speaker
me. Yeah. And, and sorry, I, I did mean to mention something about dates. I have a fucking postcard here and I absolutely forgot to mention it. 54,000 years ago on radiocarbon dates, the half life of radiocarbon, it's like just beyond the half line. Like it is pushing the boundaries of, of carbon dating. Gotcha. Those days are so like they talk about it. They're like, yeah,
00:32:40
Speaker
because it's probably beyond the 50,000 year marker. So like it gets, there's no, they're pushing the boundaries on C14 to its limit. And these are things I don't think about, right? And then what we've all kind of talked about is like, we're used to working on a lithic culture, lithic cultures, lithic technologies that are far more sophisticated.
00:33:04
Speaker
we're complex than this. Like this is early shit and we're just, and I'm not used to seeing it. And we're like, even the way that you're talking about their hafting, I don't know. Cause I don't, I'm not used to seeing that or understanding that. And I'm, and I'm, you know, we have humans here confirmed 15,000 years ago, well within the range of radiocarbon dating. So like this is like looking at this, it's just like,
00:33:27
Speaker
It just doesn't feel right, but I don't know enough to dispute it. Question then to lead us in the next segment, like with it being right on the cusp of radiocarbon being accurate or not, also with Neanderthals quote, dying out 40,000 years ago in Europe and humans getting there about 42 to 48,000. Well, we decided 42,000 like.
00:33:50
Speaker
50,000 years is not that far of a stretch from, you're not saying 280,000 years. You're saying it's a matter of like, it's like 10,000 years. Yeah. But even then that also changed. Cause like the whole idea of how Neanderthals went quote unquote extinct. Cause it's like humans just arrive as Neanderthals are leaving. So even if these are humans, 50,000 years ago, that extends the overlap by 10,000 years. Like it, it, it,
00:34:13
Speaker
It's the dog versus wolf skull debate to me. Like when, when do you call it? And you don't throw, when do you call it a human, especially right at that? Like twilight. It really throws a wrench.
Interpretive Challenges and Publishing
00:34:24
Speaker
I don't know. It's really like that meme of putting a stick in his own bicycle wheel. Like it's like, no matter how you cut this, it changes things. It changes interpretations like pretty radically either who has the technology, how long humans have been there,
00:34:43
Speaker
And if it's like, it's kind of, it's, it's not as bad as sorority in terms of like the consequences of the results, but these are present and they are still as prevalent that they have to 10,000 years is a long time. Yep. Yeah. Anyways. Okay. We'll end this and we'll get back into stuff and things.
00:35:03
Speaker
Welcome back to episode 146 of the Life of the Ruins podcast. I think that last segment was coherent. The first one, we apologize for it in advance because it was Dad and Carlton was doing a hamster ball in his brain. We can't apologize in advance because it already happened.
00:35:20
Speaker
Apologize, I'll apologize whenever the fuck I want. Yeah, so what are you gonna say? This is published in Science Advances, so it is not a archaeology-specific journal, but it does publish archaeology articles. So I'm gonna just put that in your ear as a little skepticism coming from me, but I also don't publish, so take that with a grain of salt. I'll publish you, that's stupid. Or smoke it like a grain of salt, whatever David's doing.
00:35:48
Speaker
Just write a regular paper that's easy to read that's not behind a paywall. I'd like maybe people to stop buying Hancock books. Science advances is not behind a paywall. Good. The whole model that I was just about to explain the difference between science and science advances and science advances is the open access model.
00:36:05
Speaker
So these people paid a shitload of money or their institution. Oh, right. Cause you have to pay to, yeah, lots of pay. But to my point being like, when you guys send me articles, sometimes I have to like log in until like someone else's account to like read it. But this one at science advances, I forgot is yeah, you're right. And there's another one that's, you could read like online too. Is it, it's not nature. It is.
00:36:27
Speaker
Penis. Penis. Penis. Okay. Not penis. Penis. Penis. What is that? What is Penis? What is Penis? What is Penis?
00:36:44
Speaker
One, just real quick, an issue that David talked about, like to do an open access journal or submit to one, you have to put a lot of money upfront to do that, which does limit the, which scholars can do that. Some institutions will allow you to, I mean, it's like thousands of dollars, like, or you publish in a paywall in which people have to access it through 50 dollars a year. Anyways, it's a whole thing. Sapiens articles though, peer reviewed scientific blog posts. That's it, Sapiens, yeah. Yes.
00:37:10
Speaker
And they published two of these articles within a year. So they have the money to do it, which is interesting and maybe why this is getting spread as wide as it is.
00:37:24
Speaker
physical. Like I'm pretty, that's why it's kind of easy to, once you submit to one of these things, like it's, it's out. So like for, for instance, the, the bow and arrow tech one, they received it June 15th, 2022. It went through revisions. It was accepted January 25th. And then it was posted online February 22nd, which is a very quick turnaround time for accepted to being out.
00:37:49
Speaker
It took my years normally, right? It can be. It depends on the journal. I think American Antiquity right now, the wait is at least a year. My thesis has taken since 2017, dude. I don't get it. You have to submit it first. You have to submit it first. I was waiting for you guys to call me up.
00:38:06
Speaker
Yeah, so I don't know. I don't have a dog in that fight or a cat or a thylacine. Like, I don't know what
Modern and Ancient Technology Coexistence
00:38:14
Speaker
to do. But if this one, I forget why we get on open access. Like what were we going to talk about? We were just mentioning because we talk about another when we do these articles that we actually mentioned the journals itself. And so we just put that out there. We said it.
00:38:27
Speaker
I don't know if it's bad or good. Carlton seems to think that. Yeah, it's, it's good. It's, it's one of the more reputable, like to get a paper in scientific advances. That's a big deal. Cause that shows that you're able to acquire the money for it. So like it's, it's a whole thing in the ivory tower. It's one of those journals that if you have at least one pub in there, so I got two.
00:38:50
Speaker
You booty. I'm like fifth and 20th coauthor, but it counts as one. Paywall and open access aside. So for our audience, both the papers that we just mentioned, Neanderthals and humans at this cave, bows and arrows at this cave, we'll put the article down below. It is open access. You can click on it and you can read these papers for yourself.
00:39:16
Speaker
These are, in my opinion, a little jargon heavy. It, I had to read through both of these a couple of times because it's, they're, they're very quick articles. So they're very dense and content. I would agree with that. I had to listen to it on like speech. Like I had to have it read it to me because I was like, I can't focus. Like this is too much. Yeah. That's normally me though. Cause I need people to read me story time.
00:39:39
Speaker
Yeah. So we will drop those articles, but if you want to pay us for them, we'll take your money. We'll put our Venmo account in there. So feel free. But this does bring up a good point as to why you should adopt or not adopt technologies or what the deal is. So like we know that adlatls and bows were used contemporaneously in the Americas.
00:40:01
Speaker
for at least a thousand years because Bo's show up. A thousand AD ish medieval war period middle of Tuesday. Yeah. So yeah, there's pots at Spiro and other Mississippian sites would show people with both at laddles and bows. And we know when Cortez got to the Aztec empire in Mesoamerica, he was attacked by at laddles and bows.
00:40:24
Speaker
Some people in Australia had both and still use them, so it's like they exist together. The Europeans seem to and Africans just kind of got rid of at-lattles altogether, it looks like. It is interesting, though, that they do coexist. I feel like that's an arms race that usually one technology emerges out of and is usually more efficient and replaces previous
00:40:48
Speaker
Yeah. Well, like Devin said, like he was saying, like in Mesoamerica, it was more of like a costly signaling type thing. Like, like you were just like, not like your weapon load out. Someone was like, I'm an eyeliner guy. That person was, I'm a bow guy, which like, that also leads me to think like, that's probably the case. Like my thesis was in, you could use either with those big points. So like, it was just preference, but.
00:41:10
Speaker
And even context today, we have a black powder season. We have a bow season in some parts in New England and Canada. There is a chaplain season now granted. Oh my God. Has someone looked at that? Yes.
00:41:25
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. I've not read that. It's a thing. It was like versus at laddles versus bows. Children like seasonal. Like they, it's kind of like what children in Canada learn on is Java Java on hunting. Cause it's earlier. So like, and though it leads to the point, right? Like we're talking about context, people like at laddle bow, these at the same time in American, specifically in American hunting context, there are different seasons. So it is kind of like, if you want to use a rifle during rut,
00:41:53
Speaker
You can't unless you're doing black powder and then it's, it's easier to, you know, there's a whole maintenance season. So it depends on hunting strategies, but we do know people today, like I thoroughly enjoy black powder. It's actually cost prohibitive for me to get into it too. Cause the rifles are more expensive. The tack and equipment is more expensive. So there's kind of a,
00:42:13
Speaker
an inverse. It's easier for me to go to the local gun store to the bargain bin and get like $100 .30-06 than it is like a $600 planes black powder rifle, buy all the brass caps, buy all the balls. So like, yes. What's a black? Are you talking like a musket? Yeah. You'd look like you actually do powder and you put it in there. Like you're playing like Yankee Doodle in the background. Snapchatting me a couple of years ago where I'm dressed up as a Victorian.
00:42:37
Speaker
and I say there can only be one queen but Victoria, and then I fired Devon's black fodder rifle. You might want to delete that when you publish a book. I do want to... Dude, like what the fuck? I was going to say, although I'm not discounting what you're saying because modern hunting preferences are obviously different, but I think hunting for food and for living
00:43:06
Speaker
is a different context for sport. I will say that, but obviously there is still some overlap and some like either nostalgia or some situations where the atlatl is better in situations and it exists up until today.
Experiments with Hunting Tools
00:43:26
Speaker
I think personally, and once again, I don't have a capybara in this fight. That's the best one. I don't have ferrets in the fight. You got the whole zoo pals collection, bro.
00:43:49
Speaker
I, when, when I did played battle at all with Devin and Justin, people at hell gap and battle at all is a sport. They invented to test this hypothesis in relation to grunge and grunts dissertation in which you take an at a lateral, you don't have to, with a stone point, what you do have to, with is a nerve football. And then you wear a hockey pads.
00:44:12
Speaker
and you make a little Mijtech shield out of a sled, and then you throw them out of each other, battle at all. It's like pretty easy. Now granted the ballistics are different.
00:44:21
Speaker
to block and maneuver away from atlatls, unless you get five on five and throw them in mast, then it becomes fucking difficult. That said, when you put a Nerf football on an arrow and launch it from a bow, that is terrifying. And like, you can't dodge that. It's really hard to block. And it's even like when you go from throwing atlatls for 10 yards from each other to firing a bow at someone who's prepared for it 30 yards,
00:44:50
Speaker
the velocity behind the arrow at 30 yards will reach its target before the atlatl from 10.
00:44:56
Speaker
So there is, yeah. So there, there is a difference. Like in terms of just like, if you want to kill somebody, yeah, an arrow's pretty good. But as we've talked about in this podcast, we know people hunted megafauna with adodal. So they are effective because even though they have lower velocity, they have greater impact than mass blunt force trauma, right? So that's my personal experience. Once again,
00:45:22
Speaker
I do not have a Carolina parakeet anywhere associated with this fight. But like just from the personal experience and anyone can do that if they have nerve footballs and or at a level tech. So David, you've noticed and you've studied this. There is an increase in violence in the past once the bow and arrow technology
00:45:43
Speaker
like appears like as somebody with a bandicoot in this battle i would say that had that locked and loaded dude yes like violence like bows and arrows are much more effective at killing people because you can hold many more arrows on your back or on your side quiver
00:46:00
Speaker
Archers are a toxic community, by the way. They're like, they didn't put it on their backs. I didn't put it on the side yet. I shoot it just as fast from my back, so whatever. Yeah, that happens right around the middle of the warm periods. We talked about last episode, people start bashing each other's brains in like crazy all over the world at that time. And it just so happens the bow and arrow is pretty prolifically spread a thousand years ago in North America. So it's easier for violence.
00:46:27
Speaker
and agriculture is associated with it. And also, yeah, also someone that is not in this Mario Kart race. I'm not an Italian in this Mario Kart. No. What are those called? I'm just not racing at all. I'm on a monitoring. I'm just doing the Mario, the Mario mushrooms, the turtle shells goomba goomba. I'm not a goomba in this Grand Prix.
00:46:56
Speaker
It's also to be more, to be stealthier. It's easier to fire a bow stealthily. Like the mechanics of firing a bow are much more reserved to the upper body. Well, because if you want to throw out a ladder, like if I'm hiding behind a tree and I want to hit an elk, I have to get away from the tree. And then I also have to like step into it. It's a way more full body motion. Whereas like the bow, I can just, you know, it's much more upper back. It's much more traps.
00:47:22
Speaker
I just know Donny is listening right now and he's like shitting himself because he's going to be like, I can do that. And he's going to send me a video and be like, yeah, like throwing out a little stealthily, throwing out a little while you're on the ground. You know, that's probably right. I'm just thinking about my personal style. I would agree. Think about it. It's like.
00:47:40
Speaker
It's a, it's a lot more, what's the word I'm like, not exotic, expressive. When I throw an atlatl, it's way more expressive and I'm way more intensive in it. Whereas with the bow, it's conducive to emphatic, emphatic and gestures. Yeah. Yes. Uh, I meant to ask this before and I kind of got sidetracked from it, but like when I asked like, has someone researched that has somebody researched bow versus atlatl use in seasonal hunting strategies in the past? I didn't mean like modern.
00:48:09
Speaker
Devin has in his desk. Okay. Cause I would be really curious to know what that's like. I didn't think about it. Yeah. And he also in Devin's dissertation, he did find that modern day bow hunters in Africa have far greater success rates than rifle hunters in Colorado and in the West.
00:48:28
Speaker
Who does this? This is down for a group, by the way. Yeah. Devin Pettigrew, Dr. Devin Pettigrew, who's been on the podcast like two or three times, and she's appeared in our videos, African Bushman today that hunt with bows and arrows or have a greater success rate and modern. And yeah, it's a whole pretty damn good. He definitely talked about that. So go listen to previous episodes with him. He's the expert. He actually has boat. Yeah. Tared actual in this fight. So.
00:48:57
Speaker
He has an orca in this free Willy show. So this article, which was the main part of part of this, this, the main idea of this podcast today, where are we at? What questions do we have for the audience listening? All three of us contribute a different aspect of our archaeological understanding. We edit and we're applying this to a paper that and an archaeological culture and complexes that we're not familiar with.
00:49:27
Speaker
we're not saying they're right or wrong, but it's interesting articles regardless. And they asked, they opened a lot of doors to reinterpreting known relationships either between ancestral humans and their technology or relationships between ancestral human subspecies to one another. It's yeah, no, it's, it's exciting stuff that is being conducted and uh,
00:49:56
Speaker
You clearly don't have an ocelot in this octagon. Maybe that's what we should do. Someone should fund the three of us to do, cause that's what these, the seven ages guys do. Like they get together and go travel around. Yeah. But they're adults with like salaries. We're also adults with salaries. Yeah. One of the, uh, one of us is. I left that life.
00:50:26
Speaker
Yeah, how's it been going?
Audience Engagement and Feedback
00:50:28
Speaker
Not great. I'm hospitalized. We have some questions. That's what I think we should end it at. We have some questions. Yeah. I know I said the last three episodes, I'm going to post an Instagram post about this podcast and I'll let you guys discuss, but Donnie did ask me today, like, where do I like actually post comments and stuff? Apple podcast, you can comment and leave reviews, but I need to be better about putting we
00:50:54
Speaker
need to be better about posting on the podcast, Instagram, this stuff. Let this one should be a cool discussion. Of course, Vinny back at donuts is going to say, what's the species? And I didn't use the Lord's name in vain this time. So thank you, Jay. We did get an email. I appreciate that to calm down. You're absolutely right.
00:51:12
Speaker
because we don't want to upset those people and I would never do that. I don't call them those people though. I don't know that really. You got the point. Um, it was not, we will, we will watch our language. We are, we are constantly trying to do that. It wasn't this point, like not to use other deities, not, not Jesus said to use other deities, not
00:51:33
Speaker
Jesus and then also if I'm unless you're disproving him, I think it's what's an equal opportunist. Yeah Yes, he's like don't target and a part of that is like yes, and if I'm gonna use G GFC JFC I need to be like Jesus comma fucking comma Christ I think
00:51:49
Speaker
regardless of just not going to say it anymore because he was absolutely correct. Um, and I appreciate it. He's commented on her stuff a long time. Like, yeah, thanks for you. He's been really good about giving us feedback. So like, I can't, I wasn't mad at all. I was like, you know what? He's right. And he's him and Ann and brought us. I was always like, they gave us really good feedback. So that's another way. Just like email us. Like we really do.
00:52:08
Speaker
Yeah. And look, if you email us, we'll talk about it. We'll give you a shout out. All right. You're not too dickish. We did roast that one guy. That was a couple of years ago. What did he say? Oh, that we had his 13 year old sleepover. Yeah. Yeah. Like refrain from that. Be professional.
00:52:23
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. I had fun with this episode. If you guys have other topics or articles you want us to talk like this, discuss like this, let us know. Cause this brought us down a rabbit hole. Cause we're both, once we're all like, Oh yeah, let's talk about it. Then we all kind of dove into the article. Like, wait a minute. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, wait, there's some, this needs some
00:52:45
Speaker
delving into. So if you have a panda in this palea, that's like work, I think. What's a paleo? I'm gonna fight lucha. Is that Mexican food? If you have a llama in this lucha.
00:53:01
Speaker
Nacho? Yeah, let us know what you think, and I'll make a post, I promise, on Monday for this. Sweet. And if you want to write- We have no gators in this gazebo, so... What I said I'm going to do is a fight! I don't know. Joe exotic lost gators. Yeah, if a gator's in a gazebo, you are going to fight it. I mean, it's the Florida Way. That's in their constitution.
00:53:29
Speaker
Right, so we will have the links to these articles and the episode descriptions. Once again, they are open access. You can read them for yourself. Like, check out these authors. That's one of the cool things about science. Like, if you didn't know that Science Advances was open access and you're interested in stuff like this,
00:53:41
Speaker
They have a bunch of free articles that are peer reviewed so you know that they're worthy. Yeah, give them a listen. So yeah, please be sure to rate the podcast, provide us with feedback on whichever podcast platform you're using this for a show. In order to leave comments, it needs to be Apple, but you can five star us on Spotify and Apple. And with that, we are out.
00:54:02
Speaker
Thanks for listening to a life in ruins podcast. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at a life in ruins podcast. And you can also email us at a life in ruins podcast at gmail.com. And remember, make sure to bring your archaeologists in from the cold and feed them beer. And I guess it's time, Connor. Don't you have that joke? I guess. How does a computer get drunk? Give me a second. I don't know.
00:54:33
Speaker
I'll take screenshots. Wasn't that from 20 days later? No, uh, the last of us? Yeah. Just stealing shit now. I've been stealing shit since day one. That's true. Carlton, if you ever watch the last of us, it's pretty damn good, dude. And we are out.
00:55:11
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Culturo Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.