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Episode # 198: Scott Berkun
216 Plays4 years ago
Author and speaker Scott Berkun visits the PolicyViz Podcast to talk about his new book How Design Makes The World.
The post Episode # 198: Scott Berkun appeared first on PolicyViz.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Milestones
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome back to the Policy Viz Podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabish. Happy June, everybody. I hope you are all well and healthy and safe. As we near the end of this season of the Policy Viz Podcast, just a couple more episodes for this season. I'll be taking off the month of July and August to rest and relax.
Recent Activities and Content Expansion
00:00:35
Speaker
And I'm also gearing up for the 200th episode of the podcast. That's right. Episode number 200 comes your way at the end of June. And I have yet to figure out what will be special about that episode. But make sure you tune in because I'm sure I have something fun that will be planned for that particular episode.
00:00:54
Speaker
Now I hope you've been checking out what's going on in PolicyViz on the blog. I've been running a lot of different types of things lately. I've done a bunch of Excel tutorials and I've also been expanding the YouTube
Engagement and Upcoming Features
00:01:04
Speaker
channel. So I have more videos about different types of charts. So if you haven't checked out the one chart at a time series, I really do recommend it. There's more than 50 videos on there. You can learn about all sorts of different types of charts and graphs and diagrams. I also have more Excel tutorials on there. So if you're interested in expanding your Excel capabilities, please go over and check
00:01:24
Speaker
out and I have a few other things planned that I'll be working on over the next few months. So if you want to get a sneak peek and preview of what I'm working on, consider checking out and subscribing to the newsletter. The newsletter comes out every other week right before the podcast. You'll get a sneak peek of what's going on behind PolicyViz. You get a sneak peek on the guest of that week's podcast episode. So onto the podcast.
Introduction to Scott Berkun and His Work
00:01:46
Speaker
I'm really excited for this podcast because Scott Birkin is on the show. Scott has written the new book, How Design Makes the World.
00:01:54
Speaker
It is a fantastic book. It's a really nice quick read. And as you'll hear in this week's episode of the show, Scott talks about design, not as the way probably many of us in the data visualization and presentation fields think about it as as good color or good font or good layout, but he thinks of it more as a verb. And so we're going to talk about a broader aspect of
00:02:17
Speaker
how design works and how it can be better used in our world. Scott, as you may, as you hopefully know, is the best-selling author of eight books, including one of my favorite books on presentation, Confessions of a Public Speaker. He also wrote the book The Year Without Pants, which of course is very applicable in our last 12 to 14 months.
00:02:37
Speaker
and his new book, as I mentioned, How Design Makes the World.
Exploring Design as a Verb
00:02:40
Speaker
So we talk about his book in this episode. We talk about different types of design. We talk about inclusivity and exclusion when it comes to design and design firms and all sorts of other things that I think you will find really valuable in your own work. So I'm going to pause here and send it over to the podcast episode. I hope you'll enjoy this week's episode of the Policy This podcast with Scott Birkin.
00:03:06
Speaker
Hey Scott, how are you? Welcome to the podcast.
00:03:08
Speaker
I am good. Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. I am very excited to chat with you. We're going to focus a lot on your new book, How Design Makes the World, but I actually found out about you from your previous books about presentation skills. Um, that's where I found about you and I love your presentation book. You've got this like personality in your writing, this sort of like lightheartedness. Is that like purposeful?
Context and Inclusivity in Design
00:03:33
Speaker
It's connected back to this idea of design actually, because
00:03:37
Speaker
A book is like a book is a relationship, you know, you people buy a book is all I'm going to learn this thing. I'm going to understand this thing. Then they open it and it's dry or it's boring or it's self-involved. And so I always think of writing as it's a kind of design process. I'm trying to design an experience for the reader so they feel comfortable. They feel like having a conversation with some smart, but also accessible and interesting person.
00:04:06
Speaker
So that was entirely by design, especially for presentation books, which by and large can be really uptight and sound like they're written by someone who has studied rhetoric or always gives perfect presentations. So I'm like, no, that's not the way the world works. Most presentations are terrible. Here's the straight, here's a straight story. That's what I try to do. And the books are great.
00:04:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. So I'll link to all of your books, but I do for folks who are interested in presentation skills. The Confessions of a Public Speaker is one of my favorite presentation books. So I do recommend people check that out. But let's talk about your new book, How Design Makes the World. It's a really great book. It was such an easy read to back to what we were just talking about. But I wanted to ask you just maybe tell folks a little bit about the core message of the book, and then I have a few specific things maybe we could talk about. Sure, yeah. Well, the core message of the book is really,
00:04:56
Speaker
For anyone who's been paying attention, especially for the last year and a half, there's a lot of stuff that we use and depend on that isn't designed very well. And we're very proud of our technologies. Like, oh, we have mobile phones and the internet and we should be proud of these things. But at the same time, there's a lot of aspects to how things have been built that we depend on that are just bad.
Team Dynamics and Design Outcomes
00:05:20
Speaker
And in general, most people don't understand how things get made, from how your mobile phone gets made, the websites you use, but also how like our healthcare system works, or how like our safety networks, these are all things that were designed by people. And so the goal of the book was to help everybody
00:05:39
Speaker
better understand what good design is and how it's done and how to look more critically and I mean that in the best sense, not to criticize it, but to think more clearly about what it takes to do things well so that we can have a better design world and make better choices in our own lives about how we design things for ourselves. That was the goal of the book. Anyone can read it, really short, try to make it fun, but memorable.
00:06:03
Speaker
That was the goal. So when you think about something that's good versus not good, how do you define good versus not good? Is that like the scarf working? I have a formula I can't tell anybody, or is it more like a feeling? I have opinions on this, but I also know that some really smart people like Plato and Aristotle tried to sort this out, and they never reached a final conclusion that was satisfying either.
00:06:29
Speaker
One key theme of the book is we make this mistake of convenience that if we have a couch we like, we'll say, oh, that's a great couch. Or a pair of sneakers. So we tend to put the goodness of something in the thing. And it's natural. But if you want to think about design and think about what is good, that's not enough. Because you have to put an object or a thing into a context.
00:06:54
Speaker
And so one of the jokes in the book that I use to explain this is about hammers. And I tell the story about Thor's hammer. Thor's hammer, it flies through the air. It's infinitely powerful. It can generate lightning and thunder and responds to Thor's command. So it seems like an amazing hammer.
00:07:11
Speaker
But if you start to think about, wait a second, who is this for? Is this for an ordinary citizen? Well, if it's for an ordinary citizen, it's a terrible hammer because they can't even pick it up. So we have to start asking the question when we're talking about any design of anything, a policy, a design, an apartment, a hammer, anything. Who is it for? And what problem are we trying to solve for them? And that leads you on a path to having a useful conversation about good.
00:07:41
Speaker
It has to be in a context. That's what people who are able to make better things or companies that make better things, they are very good at making sure all their brainstorming and all their idea generation is always framed in a context that's going to set them up to solve the right problem for the right person. Right. It's interesting hearing you speak about this because I probably approached your book in this way, even though it does have Legos on the cover, which folks who listen to the show know that that's a big draw for me.
00:08:07
Speaker
But I think when people think about a design book, how design makes the world, what is good design versus bad design, they probably think about colors and fonts and layout and affordances. Does the door, do I push it or do I pull it? But your concept of design is much broader than that. You've already mentioned healthcare and the safety net system. So I'm curious if you could talk about your vision of what design really means for everybody.
00:08:33
Speaker
I think that that's part of the semantic battle, I guess, around professions. If you say I'm a professional designer, you're right. A lot of people will assume, oh, you work on style. You make things look cool. Or you work on the superficial layer of something, but someone else is actually building the thing. But then in practical use, the word design gets used as a verb.
00:08:59
Speaker
everywhere. If you talk to someone who designs a NASA rocket, they're going to say, we designed the engines for that rocket. If you talk to someone who's working on a new healthcare policy, they'll talk about policy design. So I'm really after the verb usage of this word and trying to promote that as a better way to think about this subject, because that's a universal verb then. And that means to
00:09:24
Speaker
that there are shared elements for how to design NASA rocket well, an apartment complex, a website, a mobile app, the shared traits there. That's what I'm after, the root of the tree. And if you can learn that, you can apply some of that knowledge to designing anything. That's the spirit I'm after.
00:09:43
Speaker
Gotcha. And everything that you just mentioned in that list, rockets, building apartment buildings, building mobile apps or mobile phones, all of that really embodies the concept of team, which you have a whole, I think, like chapter two on teams. Can you talk a little bit about what does it mean to build a team and then have that team create good design?
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah, so there's something in our culture around ideas that goes back to probably the enlightenment of just, we love to think that creative people are lone geniuses, and they come up with, have an epiphany, and then they're able to instantly transform that epiphany into
Qualitative Research and Presentation Skills
00:10:22
Speaker
some new invention or new thing that changes the world. That's the story we're told. And we just, we'd like to hear it. But the history of that story is
00:10:30
Speaker
pretty bad. Very few people actually succeed at progressing anything on their own. There's always a team. And this goes back even to Thomas Edison, who, oh, what did Thomas Edison do? He meant the light bulb. It's like, no, that's really not what he did. Other people had patents on the light bulb. Many of Thomas Edison's patents had lots of other people on them too. He was actually a collaborator. But that's not the romance that we know. So one goal of the book was to explain how
00:10:56
Speaker
A lot of what goes wrong on projects or leads to bad outcomes has to do with just simply the design of the teams. How are the roles set up for who's gonna make what decisions? How do you set it up so people feel they have shared goals instead of they're working against each other? And I think the number one reason for why we end up with things that are designed poorly in the world has to do with the way organizations are designed. Most organizations are just functional.
00:11:24
Speaker
Sometimes it's in a superficial, mild way and they can overcome those limitations. But a lot of the time, I'm sure many of your listeners can think through their work experiences where they had a good project with good goals and good ideas. And the outcome was terrible. Why? Because this team leader and that team leader didn't get along. So that also leads to discussions of power.
00:11:47
Speaker
and the power dynamic in an organization. And that is also a major reason why things work out well or not. It's not the intellectual quality of the ideas. It's something about relationships and leadership that often we want to gloss over. But those can be the real issues.
00:12:02
Speaker
Yeah, you talk in the chapter about teams, about teams where, as you just sort of mentioned, about the power inequalities, but also about design teams that might be exclusionary, both either within the firm or in how they think about sort of the external folks. And I wanted to ask you to maybe talk about that piece a little bit, and also to sort of extend it, whether you're thinking around what exclusion means with
00:12:29
Speaker
particularly with design, has your thinking at all changed or evolved or modified over the past year, I guess 18 months or so, especially in the United States since we've started to have, I think, a real discussion around race and equity and inclusion?
00:12:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think the default notion about bias and exclusion and leaving people out is that it's sort of, you know, it's something that happens by accident, it happens, maybe people are thinking they got busy, and oh, sorry, we forgot, we left out these people. And I think that's where I probably, I thought about these issues of bias and design years ago. But in working on the book and doing more research on it, I realized that the default is actually the opposite.
00:13:13
Speaker
So there's a story in the book about a woman who's doing research on voice recognition. And she was doing, you know, this is important research. She's figuring out this new model and new toolkit to use. But she based her work on a technology that had been built by a team at Microsoft for doing voice recognition for robots. And she's working on this project.
00:13:33
Speaker
And it turns out that to demo this work she was doing, she couldn't use her own voice because the engineers on that project were all young men. And the young men on this project, I mean, it wasn't a product for sale. It wasn't this well-funded project. They just simply used their own data, their voice data to train their toolkit.
00:13:54
Speaker
They weren't doing it intentionally. They weren't thinking, hey, who can we leave out today? No, it's just they're busy. They're trying to get stuff done. They're trying to be agile. So they just use their own voices. Now, that led to the exclusion of this woman who just she had to have a man demo her work, which sounds ridiculous in a terrible way. Like, what? But that story is a story that gets played out by default.
00:14:20
Speaker
by default. So that means that the burden then on anyone who is a decision maker or project leader or a designer
00:14:28
Speaker
Your job then is to have, you have to go out of your way to recognize your biases. It's not this thing you get for free. By free, you're probably gonna leave somebody out. And there's lots of evidence and stories in the book about how projects that have done that successfully and gone out of their way to recognize there are other cases and other users they should think about. It often makes the product better for everybody. It improves your thinking about what good means by recognizing there are other cases.
00:14:56
Speaker
And that's still, I think, I was late to figuring that out, that it's an obligation. It's not this bonus thing. And I wanted to make sure that was included in the book. That is part of design. That is part, if you think you have an idea that can make the world better and you spend your career, you're investing your time in doing it, if you're going to change things, you are obligated to learn from the past history of people who are like you and wanted to make things better and ended up making things worse.
00:15:21
Speaker
That's part of your job. Unfortunately, it's not taught that way. Computer science majors, which I was one, you're not taught that. That's really, I think, a failure against the notion we have for progress as a society. Anyway, I wanted to make sure that should be in a book. If you're going to explain the basics of designing something, that should be part of what you are taught. This is your responsibility. Right. Now, a lot of your work and your writing is about
00:15:47
Speaker
communication, it's about innovation, it's about design. And I wanna come back to the idea of teams. So within all of those different pieces, do you have thoughts for people who are part of a team where maybe they see that their group is being exclusionary and let's just make it for the final product. How can they as the individual in the team promote a more inclusive approach to their design, their team, their presentation, whatever it may be?
00:16:16
Speaker
answering that question in a meta design way. How do you design the design of something, right? The best answer is that they should, you want to have a diverse team on the project. Then you build that all in because then every discussion, every brainstorming meeting, every specification you write, you share, Hey, give me feedback on this. It's going to be built into your culture.
00:16:37
Speaker
In the case of the voice recognition toolkit, if instead of being a team of young white men, there was a middle-aged woman, there was someone who's African-American. If you had a diverse team, then the sampling data, they all doing their same thing. They're being efficient. The sample data would have been more diverse. They wouldn't have had to worry about some extra step as much because it'd be built in.
00:17:01
Speaker
And that's a harder problem to solve. I'm not an expert on solving that problem. But that is really, if you are trying to solve it in the most coherent, deepest way, that's the answer. Diverse teams tend to make products that better support diverse outcomes for more diverse people. It seems very simple to me, but hard to do. But hard to do. And I wonder, you come from a computer science background. I come from an economics background. And I would suspect in both of those fields, there's not a lot of
00:17:30
Speaker
qualitative methods taught in either of those. And I think that's something that I've seen, especially over the last 12 to 18 months, that these qualitative methods where we actually talk to people and understand their experiences and try to build that into our work is vitally important, and yet we don't have the training on how to do that. Because it's not just like
00:17:51
Speaker
you call someone on the phone and start talking to them. It's like, you know, kind of say it's that simple, but it's not that simple. So have you worked with folks or thought about, you know, this mixing or merging of these different methods?
00:18:02
Speaker
Yeah, I was a weird student. I wasn't a great computer science student. So I knew during my college career, I was never going to be a great programmer. Like at best, I'd be a mediocre programmer and not that happy. Before I left, I tried to figure out what else can I do with this technical knowledge, but I wanted to make products. I studied human factors skills, which include how you do qualitative research, how you do interviews. So I learned some of that in college. And then during my career, I worked on project teams that had made investments in those things.
00:18:32
Speaker
I don't think it's that hard to learn. I think the bias that economics and computer science and the sciences have is this faith in the rigor of what's measurable and hard data. But if you talk to a customer, it's considered soft data somehow.
00:18:50
Speaker
But I've come to the opposite conclusion that it's all the stuff that's harder to measure that can often be the most important data or information you can get. And so I think the book talks about some of these methods. And the most important one was if you're making anything,
00:19:06
Speaker
You are obligated to watch someone try to use a prototype version of the thing you're making to watch. You don't have to track their click through data, hard data. Yeah, you can get that, but you want to actually observe because what you are doing by making something, and this includes presentations.
00:19:24
Speaker
You are making something have a psychological effect on the other person. Cognitive psychological effect. They're going to learn something. They're going to behave differently. So how do you study that? You can observe it. So in the case of software and things like that, you make a prototype and you sit someone down who's in your target demographic and you observe and you watch where they struggle. Where do they do well? What words did you use that they think means something else? All that's observable, which in a way is the heart of science.
00:19:54
Speaker
That's what Newton did. You observe. You have a premise. You do an experiment and you observe. That curiosity to observe and to be patient and to realize that's where your real information is going to come from is scientifically viable as a premise for how you're going to get your best information about what you're doing, but it involves other people. It involves what we pejoratively call soft skills.
00:20:18
Speaker
Which when they're really, really the important skills. The important skills, yeah. And yeah, so, and this is basic things you see product people do. You can call someone up like you're suggesting and say, Hey, what do you think of my product? And we know from our cognitive biases, most people are going to be polite and compliment you.
00:20:37
Speaker
So they're going to say, hell, your product's great. You're going to, okay, my customer research is done. I'm joking. But a lot of CEOs and executives, that's exactly what they do. That's exactly why they believe they're making good stuff. And we know as users of it, that their stuff is terrible and we don't understand why. That is the cognitive dissonance.
00:20:58
Speaker
You're asking a good question. I don't think it's that hard a problem to solve, provided we're open-minded about how these other kinds of data can be the more powerful kinds. Yeah.
Design Principles in Complex Systems
00:21:10
Speaker
So you mentioned presentations. I want to just pivot quickly into presentations.
00:21:16
Speaker
I guess ideal model for people, you know, I always tell people, you know, make sure you practice your presentation, rehearse your presentation and, you know, don't just click through and mumble it to yourself. Like actually stand up and, you know, click through. But the obviously like best approach is to practice your presentation in front of a group. But like not everybody has that, especially now where, you know, we're all at home. We don't necessarily have that luxury, but like, is that your like core part about getting a really good presentation is being able to practice it in front of people?
00:21:46
Speaker
I think that there's, there's at least two parts to what a good presentation is in this context. And so one is the performance and practicing will help you with your performance, how you feel comfortable, how your segues between different topics is going to work. But that's all about performance. If you told me I could only magically give every presenter in the world, you know, one skill improvement, like they couldn't, couldn't fix them up at one. It really be about this last question that you just asked about better understanding of who you're talking to. Yeah.
00:22:16
Speaker
So many presentations seemed aimed at some imagined audience that is not the audience. It's either too complicated, it's too guarded, it's too pretentious. And that's really just about misunderstanding who you're talking to. And a lot of experts, you know, a lot of experts, you know, in public policy and economics, really smart. And you give, it has to be your presentation. And in two minutes, it's like, what are they doing?
00:22:41
Speaker
And that to me is they really need to think, and there's a chapter in Confessions for Public Speak about this, why are these people listening to you? What question do they have? What mistake are they making in their world with your expertise? If you give a talk about that, you're guaranteed to help people, even if
00:23:00
Speaker
You mumble, even if you don't have good jokes, even if your slides are ugly. If you give a presentation that here's the five things I know who you are. You filled out the survey. I know why you're here. There's five mistakes. I'm confident most of you are making. You can avoid them. I'm going to show you how.
00:23:17
Speaker
Boom! Everyone wants to hear that presentation. Everybody. But how often do we get that presentation from experts? Rarely. That's part of why I wrote the book and that's part of why I still coach people in speaking. I feel like the world can be so much better if our experts actually gave something closer to that in their approach to even the topics they talk about.
00:23:39
Speaker
So I want to turn back to one thing and then turn back to the design book because you just mentioned that, you know, find out what your audience wants or what they need. And I think a lot of people will say, well, I don't know how to ask my audience that question before I develop or give the talk. And I don't know how to issue a survey. So that's a pretty practical question. But like, how do you think about, you know, solving that challenge?
00:24:00
Speaker
Well, I think even if you don't have time for the survey, you don't know how to do it, or you don't have access to your audience, you can still go through that thought process of, well, let me step back from my ego. Let me step back from what I want to talk about. Let me step back from that. Just ask that question. Who's going to click on the link to show up at this Zoom webinar? Who's going to do that?
00:24:20
Speaker
What do they know? What problems do they face? What is it that led them to click on that link as opposed to the hundred other things they could do with this hour? Why? There has to be a problem they're trying to solve, a situation they're in at work. What is that reason? Even if you have to guess about that reason, you're going to have a better approach to what you cover.
00:24:41
Speaker
then falling back on, which was what we do, me and my ego, I want to talk about this or, and also sometimes you have the problem. The organizer of the event reached out to you or your boss and says, Hey, Sally, can you give a presentation about tax accounting? And you go, all right, I'll give a presentation about tax accounting. And no one bothers that who knows why your boss suggested it. They have nothing to do with the audience at all. He wants to put on his, you know, report for the week that someone gave it. So you need to do a little bit of journalistic investigation as to
00:25:10
Speaker
What is this? Who's coming? And if you have to guess at it, that's better than nothing. We fall back on our egos and we know from watching those presentations, that's really not what we want.
00:25:21
Speaker
Yeah, I tell people now a lot of presentation stuff is subjective, right? Like if you put a design on your slides and you know, could be you might like it, I might hate it, it's fine. But like I have two things that I just absolutely hate. And one is when the presenter and this happens in my field all the time, they have that big list of stuff and they say, I know you can't see this, but and then they just continue. It's like,
00:25:42
Speaker
Could you care less about me as the audience members? Like, I know you can't do this, but I don't care. I'm just going to keep talking. I mean. Yeah. It's a symptom. It's a symptom. It is. Yeah. Also a symptom of how they practiced and just think it's really about me. It's about not that they're intending. It's like the exclusion habit from earlier on in this conversation. They're not intending to bore you. But when you are in your own world about what the presentation is for, what problem you're going to solve, it's going to tend to err on the side of being self-indulgent. It's just for me. Yeah.
00:26:11
Speaker
Well, it also wraps back to your whole book on design, which is understand how people are going to use whatever it is. And in this case, how are they going to use the presentation? And if you can't present it well, if you can't think about how they're going to use it, it's not going to be a good presentation.
00:26:28
Speaker
No, no, I mean, it can be in a minor way. Like you can be entertaining, right? Yeah, that's not the worst situation. But the hope is and that's your intent, probably as the speaker, that you can have this performance. It's interesting. But when it's over, people leave now being able to solve a problem or ask a better question, or feel happier about their lives or be better parents or be better teacher, like, you know, we're some kind of movement.
00:26:56
Speaker
outside of the experience of being in that talk. Right. So I want to turn back here as we get close to our end time. This whole book on design, I love the idea of design is a verb. So are there products, services, websites now in your mind that are like, what are the like, have the worst design and what has the best design? Like, can you pick out like a couple on each?
00:27:19
Speaker
Uh, yeah. So, um, my, my favorite go-to answer for this is actually a strange one. It's, it's an ax. So it's a Fiskars ax. I live in Seattle. I live a bit out in the woods. I split wood. Great stress relief. I highly recommend it. Um, but it's an ax it's, and it's a splitting wedge. It's just, you know, not that expensive as maybe a $70 ax, but it is so well shaped. It fits well in my hands.
00:27:49
Speaker
It augments my strength. I never have to worry about its battery life. It never crashes. So it's very simple obviously. It's not Excel or Google's cheats or something complex, but it reflects to me a very simple tool that's excellent at what it does without any
00:28:07
Speaker
any frustrations. And I think that's an ideal for a lot of designs that we deal with in the world. And on the other end of the spectrum is just to look at the chaos and the mess of what our healthcare system went through over the last year. All the little pieces of the vaccine rollout from the registration websites that would crash,
00:28:26
Speaker
from the logistics, the design of the logistics systems for getting vaccines to different places, to the communication around how information from the CDC was rolled out. There's so many things in there that you could say, not in totality, but individually, in terms of the proficiency of each of these things, were design failures. These were things that should be designed better. They should be designed so we can depend on them in a crisis, and they weren't. And so you could pick any corner of that whole
00:28:55
Speaker
that whole story over the last year, I go, wait a second. What?
Concluding Thoughts and Encouragement
00:28:58
Speaker
What? Who designed this? What were they trying to solve? What went wrong? And and I think it's of all the things I could say, it's probably the most important.
00:29:07
Speaker
Yeah. And talk about exclusionary too, right? I mean, we had the inequality and the vaccine rollout and who's been affected by COVID. All these things draw back to that thing that we were talking about, exclusionary inclusiveness. Absolutely. How design makes the world. These are all the things in the world. How are they designed? That was the thrust of the book is to have everybody have access to asking the ability to ask better questions about these things and understand why these things often go wrong and then also what we can do about them.
00:29:33
Speaker
I have an ax on one hand, my survivalistic instincts is about civilization and society. Great Scott. Thanks so much for coming on the show. The book is how design makes the world. I'll link to it in the show notes. It's been great chatting with you. Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me.
00:29:52
Speaker
And thanks to everyone for tuning into this week's episode of the show. I hope you enjoyed that. I hope you learned a lot about design and this concept of design as a verb. I have linked to Scott's books on the show notes, so do check them out. Again, the new book, How to Design Makes the World, I think is a really great synopsis of how to think more broadly about design. So I hope you're well, I hope you're safe. So until next time, this has been the policy of this podcast. Thanks so much for listening.
00:30:20
Speaker
A number of people help bring you the Policy Vis podcast. Music is provided by the NRIs, audio editing is provided by Ken Skaggs, and each episode is transcribed by Jenny Transcription Services. If you would like to help support the podcast, please share it and review it on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Policy Vis podcast is ad-free and supported by listeners. If you'd like to help support the show financially, please visit our Patreon page at patreon.com slash policyvis.