Transcript
Jim Crider: Cade, I'm excited for today's conversation. Before we dive in, i will admit this is something that I, not that I have all the answers on really anything we talk about, but this is certainly an area that I don't have all the answers about. A lot of level what I'll be discussing today is my pondering on this with this topic.
Jim Crider: And i would i was I would assume that's the same for you as we go into this.
Cade Grimm: Yeah, absolutely. I have maybe some opinions, but none of them are super strong. i could i could be swayed. So we'll we'll see what see what comes out of this.
Jim Crider: Yeah. So as we, as we dive into this conversation, just keep that in mind that Kate and I are not trying to say that these, our opinions are the, uh, correct ones per se, but hopefully this conversation will be, something that will spur on your thoughts, be it for you or for a loved one, friend, family, as they're navigating money before marriage. So today our our conversation is really about, uh, having conversations and setting expectations.
Jim Crider: for money before you enter marriage. And obviously before marriage can imply any point before you're married second, and it could be when you're a child, that could be when you're, uh, when you're an adult single, but we'll be discussing today specifically, we'll be, discussing money, kind having money conversations and the role of money from dating through engagement to early marriage.
Cade Grimm: Thank
Jim Crider: So that's that's the role of our conversation today. Now I'll admit, I haven't been single in in a long time. Kendra and I got married at, I just turned 22. So it's been, we've been married for about 13 and a half years.
Jim Crider: And so it's it's been a bit, and we got married when we were young and broke. So we didn't really have to navigate a lot of these conversations. And I'm sure some of that that will be tied into our conversation today is just our experience.
Jim Crider: So today's conversations will be largely anecdotal. And again, a lot of us sort of pondering these these thoughts as well. Kate and I, we we've had the privilege of navigating thousands and thousands of conversations with individuals and families over the years regarding their life and their money.
Jim Crider: So we do have a lot of exposure to how money can impact relationships. So maybe maybe we do have a unique perspective. And again, I'm not saying that our unique perspective lends us the correct answers, but at least lends us some observations that may be useful for you.
Jim Crider: I think a good place to start sort of setting the stage, and then we'll go back from here. Again, we'll sort of a bullet point odd conversation today. We'll navigate this together. But before we before we get started, this will set the stage.
Jim Crider: So I saw an interesting statistic. It said, and these numbers have varied over time, but the latest poll that was taken by LendingTree and US News stated that 56% to 67% of us marriages start with debt incurred specifically from their wedding.
Jim Crider: i thought that was pretty interesting.
Cade Grimm: Wow.
Jim Crider: And then second, uh, nerd, nerd wallet ran a, uh, a study that said that 60% of married people wish they had discussed money topics before marriage to help prevent future issues.
Cade Grimm: That is.
Jim Crider: So they wish they would have discussed money topics before they were married. And now that they have been married, they they have they have issues. They think those conversations prior to marriage would have helped maybe alleviate or remove those later those later issues.
Jim Crider: So that's setting the stage for where we will go today is, well, if you if they if they regret not having those conversations, when do you have them? How do you have them?
Jim Crider: what What is appropriate to be talked about? yeah, I think it should be fun conversation again. I don't have the answers here per se, but I think there is some prudence to be exercised and it's something you should at least consider rather than casually dating and then ending up married and realizing like, goodness, we, we skipped over this major part of our, our marriage or us coming together.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Cade Grimm: Yeah. It's like, what's the balance between on date number one, requesting that your date bring there their financial statements and you review them together versus not ever discussing any of that at all.
Cade Grimm: Somewhere in the middle is probably the right answer.
Jim Crider: Exactly. So guess let's let's get into that. So i would assume it comes in phases, but when is it appropriate to talk about, to talk about finances and those finances could be, uh, income.
Jim Crider: Let's just, let's make it simple. So income outflows. So cashflow, what do you make?
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: What do you spend? Uh, and then your balance sheet, what do you own and what do you owe? When is it appropriate to talk through these things and how do you broach those, those topics? And then, uh, you know, as you just mentioned on date number one or even date number two,
Jim Crider: maybe you maybe you're on a third date and you're realizing like, wow, I really enjoy this person. i could see this going to us spending our lives together. Is that too early to dive into, hey, here's what I own. What about you?
Jim Crider: Then you run this risk of maybe maybe she's not into you, and but you have a lot of assets and suddenly you've opened the door to do a gold digger or maybe the maybe maybe you don't own and you just open that up to maybe maybe you have a lot of debt and
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: you you decide you want to conceal that because you don't want to. Maybe you're afraid that it'll hamper that relationship and disallow it from continuing where you want to go.
Jim Crider: And that's that can be some dishonesty. But when you when is it okay to disclose that? I don't know.
Cade Grimm: yeah
Jim Crider: these are this lets Let's get into this.
Cade Grimm: I would think I would think even date three is probably too soon. i would think and again, I don't have a specific number in mind. But I think that early, you're still just really getting to know each other.
Cade Grimm: Obviously money and and what do you make? And what do you own? What do you owe? All those things are important as the I think relationship progresses and starts to look like, hey, there might be a a real future here. So I think date three is still early, but all relationships move at a different pace.
Cade Grimm: Like, you know, like some people, they date for several years before they get married. Others date for a few months and feel like, Hey, you're the one i'm going to get married. So it's so difficult to say when should those conversations come up? I think it shouldn't be, based on a timeline, but based on a, uh, I guess a feeling of, Hey, this person may be the one I think.
Cade Grimm: I think maybe when you get to that point, those conversations should should come up instead of it being on a timeline because of what I just said.
Jim Crider: Yeah. If you put it on a timeline, let's my, my, my parents, for instance, they're, they're certainly the end of the spectrum, but my parents, they met and then they loped less than two weeks later.
Jim Crider: So if you put them on a timeline of, Hey, you should have money conversation at month three, they already blew through Pat through, blew through that. And they're already in the, uh, the newlywed phase.
Cade Grimm: yeah.
Jim Crider: So that, that doesn't work.
Cade Grimm: yeah
Jim Crider: So is it, uh, we have established though, that you and I'd agree that having money conversations before marriage is important. So, at some point between meeting and marriage, you need to have these conversations.
Cade Grimm: Absolutely.
Jim Crider: So again, we're back to the question of, but, but when, and I would agree it's, you can't say at week seven is when you have this first one, because maybe week seven is really advanced for one couple and week seven is you're still early on and that's inappropriate for another couple.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: and then again, you have these different topics again, like what's your, how much money do you make? And obviously as you get to know someone, let let's let's break these down in a different ways. So again, we talked through cashflow, so income and outflows.
Jim Crider: Let's talk through outflows.
Cade Grimm: Yep.
Jim Crider: You'll probably, as you date somebody, you'll probably start making observations about how they spend their money. We've talked about this in prior conversations and how, how money's a tool to help you do what's important to life and the way that use your money communicates what you value.
Jim Crider: And if you're going on dates with somebody, you'll probably observe how they tend to spend. Now, maybe they're putting on a facade because they want to
Cade Grimm: yeah
Jim Crider: uh like they want to pamper you or they're trying to make themselves look better in a different light than they normally would so you have to consider that and take it with a grain of salt but i think there is some level of indication in those early relationships for how someone wants to tend to spend their money so you can start seeing that there is what do they value in the way that they spend uh or their the willingness to spend or not
Cade Grimm: Yeah. I think you can probably also make an assumption on at least ballpark what your, uh, what this person makes too. Cause I feel like early on in conversations before, i don't know,
Cade Grimm: so So much of of dating today happens on like apps and stuff and you have conversations on the app for a week or whatever before you actually go have coffee. You've probably, it might might even be in the person's profile. Like, yeah, I'm um'm a financial planner or I'm a teacher or I'm a physician, whatever. and Just based off what you know at the surface level, just getting to know this person can probably have an idea of this person makes a lot of money or or not.
Cade Grimm: And then, yeah, once you start spending more time with them, you get a really good idea of what their spending habits are.
Jim Crider: Yeah, I think that's great. is Yeah. Once you, once you get to know them, an early question is, well, what do you do for a living? And that problem is going to be some sort of indicator in what their rough income is.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: And again, I'm not saying their income or their, what they do for a living per se should be a, uh, reason you marry someone or not, but you know it the scope of the conversation today.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Cade Grimm: Right.
Jim Crider: So
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: Of course, you could have someone who maybe they put some they put it on a facade and the way that they spend their money makes it seem that they have and or make a lot, but in reality, they are bearing yeah accumulating a mountain of debt.
Jim Crider: Maybe that's the case.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: And again, these are the ways you needss start having these conversations.
Cade Grimm: yeah at the
Cade Grimm: Yeah. At dinner, when they when the when they pay the bill, you're going to be like, hey, is that a debit card or is that a credit card? You racking up debt for this date or can you do this?
Jim Crider: yeah
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: Yeah. So yeah, start talking or just, just observing how they spend their money and you know, piecing other clues as far as what they do for a living and how much money do you think they're making? And and again, I'm not saying that's by any means most important thing, but just in regards to conversation we're having right now, when, uh, of course you would then have like assets and liabilities,
Jim Crider: So you can start feeling for these money habits, but when is it appropriate to actually first conversation of either disclosing what you have or asking what they have, you know, you, maybe you have a lot of debt and when, when should you feel comfortable with sharing that?
Cade Grimm: Hmm.
Jim Crider: I have a, I have a a friend of mine. He has a girl he really likes a lot. And we were talking recently and he's done a really good job of saving and investing for, for quite a while now. So he has a good,
Jim Crider: good pile of money saved up. And he said that his girlfriend understands that he's good with money, but he has not shared with her how much he has because he's afraid that that will skew her perception of him.
Cade Grimm: Hmm.
Jim Crider: And I can see that the same way. If you have a lot of debt, wanting to hide that out of skewed perception. Now, of course, those the reason you would hide it are different
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: reasons. And I would say, I would argue that the hiding the debt is way more manipulative and dangerous than hiding the asset side, or maybe you're hiding asset because you never plan on disclosing that at which point I would say it's very deceptive as well.
Cade Grimm: I agree, yeah.
Jim Crider: yeah, again, do you have any thoughts on when that conversation or how that conversation comes up, be it you disclosing what you have or opening the commerce?
Cade Grimm: Yep.
Jim Crider: Like, do you ask, do you disclose, do you so formally state, Hey, today's date while we're eating is to talk about this and you really have a formal agenda. Do you have any thoughts there?
Cade Grimm: Yeah. And again, I could be way off on this, but like you said, you should not make your decision on who you're going to be with the rest of your life based off of how much money they make or how much they have, how much money they have or don't have.
Cade Grimm: So I don't think, I don't think this conversation should come up. at least like diving deep into, Hey, let's just lay it all out. Here's what I have. Here's my debts. Here's all of this stuff.
Cade Grimm: I don't think that conversation should, should be, should be discussed until you are, you've reached that place of, we both agree that we love each other.
Cade Grimm: We think we want to spend the like rest of our lives together. We've determined all of that without considering these material things and how much money do you make? And, you know, how much is in your 401k or how much student loans do you have? We've already determined that, Hey, I want to spend the rest of my life with you.
Cade Grimm: Let's make sure before we jump into this, that, uh, all of our cards are on the table and part of having all all your cards on the table is talking about finances. So I think it would come up, uh, later if, if you bring it up too early, then you run the risk of these things of like, man,
Cade Grimm: I don't know if you really were that into me until I brought up the fact that I've got $2 million, dollars you know, or man, you seemed like you really liked me until you found out I had $150,000 of student debt.
Cade Grimm: Like if you bring it up too early, you run the risk of, of those things happening. So I think bring it up. It doesn't happen until, you know, like, Hey, I might spend the rest of my life with you.
Jim Crider: Yeah, but well it's let's just to play the devil's advocate would be, let's say you are very serious and you've expressed that you love this person and spend your life with them. But then they did the data disclose that they have $200,000 of credit card debt.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: and that is not just from the past.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: It's something they're continuing to accumulate. And that is completely contrary to how you view money. At that point, you end the relationship? Because you know you're you're not married yet. you end it? do you how do you How do you get into those conversations? So You have any thoughts there?
Cade Grimm: yeah i would I would think if you if you waited like I'm proposing, and again, I don't have all the answers. this I could be way off on this. But I think if you wait until you've already made that decision, this could be the person I spend the rest of my life with.
Cade Grimm: Then you have this conversation. You find out, wow, they've got $200,000 worth credit card debt. that's the That's time to say, hey, let's pump the brakes. Let's talk strategy here. like Is this something that I think you and I can, now with this new piece of information that's been thrown in,
Cade Grimm: how would we navigate this? Because if if we wait until marriage to find out how we would navigate that financial struggles or, or lack of communication is one of the leading causes of divorce year over year. So like, let's tackle this now. How how are we going to navigate this? Cause this is a heavy hitting topic based off of my input on how you should handle it and your input of how you should handle it, how you got there in the first place.
Cade Grimm: What's our conflict resolution like? can we Can we function as a team here on a on a big financial discussion and and navigate this in a healthy way?
Cade Grimm: And so I think i think what if they come to the table with with nothing alarming, then great, let's continue moving forward. maybe Maybe we really are the one for each other. if they come to the table with something really a big red flag,
Cade Grimm: here's your first test before marriage to, Hey, how going to handle this? So I still think it's appropriate to wait. Uh, even if you've got a load of debt that you're going to unpack on somebody in that conversation.
Jim Crider: Yeah, I would tend to agree. And we have to go back to thematically what is money and money is a means of communicating what you value. And if we uncover that someone has saved a lot or they spend in a certain way or they invest in a certain way or whatever, that's typically indicative of them valuing something, be it they value delayed gratification for the sake of future financial security.
Jim Crider: They value clothes, they value charity, they value food, whatever. So again, the way you use your money generally communicates what you value.
Jim Crider: Again, a large problem here is that most people in my experience go through life simply taking action and are being reactionary with how they use their money versus stopping and being intentional, thinking through what it is they value and then ensuring that their resources, their time and their money are truly aligned with that.
Cade Grimm: Mm-hmm.
Jim Crider: and But yeah, if we're just seeing Uh, if someone, if if, if money comes up in a conversation, it doesn't have to stop at the money, but rather, okay, why is this the case?
Jim Crider: And maybe I disclosed to Kendra that I have a mountain of credit card debt because I love to go shopping and Kendra has been prudent in saving forever. So she has a whole lot of assets.
Jim Crider: it's not necessarily the money that's the issue, but rather Is that, is that an expression that we value different things? And now we have to, we have to go past the conversation on money. We have to get into the conversation of, well, okay, well, what is actually important to you?
Jim Crider: And that's, I'd say that's even, that is a primary importance is talking through,
Cade Grimm: Mm-hmm.
Jim Crider: you know, and that's where it's fun to get to know someone as you start dating is really getting to know this person and what's important to them. You know, that's Kendra and I, I like i liked Kendra a lot, a whole lot long before she liked me.
Jim Crider: And part of my strategy was to, i i was I'm a night owl and all of our friends would go to bed and Kendra and I would stay up late and we'd sit on the couch and we would just talk for hours. And get to know like what her aspirations were and Things she enjoyed, where'd she want to travel, what she want to do if if money wasn't a, wasn't a thing, what would she spend her time doing? And just really getting you to know her.
Jim Crider: And, so I would say that that exploration process as you date and you're hoping to get to know this person for who they are.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: And I think everyone wants to everyone, you want to know other people and everyone wants to be known. And i think that's of the deepest. wants and needs in life is to truly be known for who you are and that's one of the exciting things about dating is is finally being having someone that you are excited to have open up to you and then finding someone that you trust and that you want to open up to and as you start allowing someone else in your life and as they allow you into their life you start having these conversations about what do they value what are their goals what do i value what are my goals and you start communicating those things and as you get more serious it moves from
Cade Grimm: yeah
Jim Crider: simply what are my values and my goals to what do you value for in a spouse what do you value in a family do you want to have a family do you want to stay single do you want to get married do you want to have children and then what are the uh what do you want the the values of your family to encompass what would be the mission statement for your family What would be those core tenants that your family would hold? What are the goals that you have for them?
Jim Crider: And that starts leading into probably some sort of expression of how money would be used. i so I think that could be a good way to trickle into that. And then suddenly if it's indicative of that, they are through that conversation, it becomes clear that they will take kindred, I, for instance, that, okay, we, but we both definitely want to get married and we want to have several kids and we value time with the people we love.
Cade Grimm: Mm-hmm.
Jim Crider: and financial stress uh not having financial stress is important well that's going to indicate that you know we're both uh recognize that we we are okay we are okay with with prudence and and not spitting a whole bunch of money on things because we want to one be able to support a large family and lots of kids which is important and then having not having financial stress is important and then as we discussed in prior conversations that having accumulating a high debt to income ratio is a primary driver for financial stress.
Jim Crider: So if we understand that, then okay, this person doesn't want to stressed financially. So either they're really good at bearing their emotions or bearing their head in the sand when they should have financial stress, or they're going to do things that would avoid financial stress.
Jim Crider: And then that would get in the conversation of, well, like, okay, what does money look like for you right now? And you any you have any thoughts there, Kate? I just went on quite a long rant.
Cade Grimm: No, I think that's all good stuff. I mean, I, and and the more I reflect on like the timing of this conversation when it's appropriate. When I say like, wait until you're to the point of,
Cade Grimm: thinking this person might be the one. I don't mean like you've decided, hey, I'm i'm going to propose to this person next week. Like that's too late. But like once you start crossing that threshold of, hey, this person might be the one and they agree, they they share those feelings.
Jim Crider: Thank you.
Cade Grimm: That's when I think starting to trickle in these these conversations, like you said, make sense. And I agree though that if you start with, again, what do you value? What's important to you?
Cade Grimm: and And let the conversation go from there. I think that's a be a really good way to approach it. and And you'll uncover a lot. just Again, a lot of this stuff, probably by the time you've reached a point in a relationship where you think this person might be the one, you probably have a pretty good idea. Even if you don't know for certain that, man, they've got a lot of debt or this person has a lot of assets or somewhere in between, you've gotten to know this person well enough throughout up until this point of really laying it all on the table, you probably you've got a pretty good idea of what what they're going to come to the table with.
Cade Grimm: So it is going to be different for everybody, obviously.
Jim Crider: Yeah. Well, again, as you get to know someone just for who they are, you're also going to get to know them for how they use their resources, how use their time, how they view relationships.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: Do they have a lot of, do they have a handful of close friends? They have a lot of like just a larger friend base, maybe not as deep. Like, so I would you say that, you know,
Jim Crider: relationships, how they use their time, how they use their money. Those are three of the primary indicators of ultimately what they but they value. So you'll you'll start learning about those things, those their use and views of those resources. and But I think there can be some other interesting conversations as things maybe get more serious.
Jim Crider: One would be just learning about money scripts and money scripts being, and you you know what have you heard that term money scripts before?
Cade Grimm: it it's like Essentially, it's your your beliefs around money come from how you learned money as a child or growing up, what what you're what your beliefs around money are is heavily influenced by how you were raised around money.
Cade Grimm: It's kind of the gist of it.
Jim Crider: Yeah. And a money script for instance could be any kind of debt is bad or another money script could be, checking accounts are for frivolous spending and saving accounts are never to be touched.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: Or you should, don't know, you, uh, you should always have a new car. You should always drive a new car because a new car, expresses success.
Jim Crider: Those are all different types of money scripts.
Cade Grimm: Yeah. but Before we hopped on here, I, uh, I was looking up money scripts actually specifically. I found an article from, uh, creative planning and then they cited a bunch of different resources around like psychology of financial planning and all these other places. But, uh, this article said that there's four main money scripts, which are money avoidance, money, worship, money, status, and money vigilance.
Cade Grimm: And then they go to break down, some examples of those four different money scripts, which I could share with you what this article says, or you may already have your own thoughts on those.
Jim Crider: No, go for it. I'd be curious to hear some more.
Cade Grimm: Yeah. So money avoidance, they categorize as money equals greed and corruption. Feels undeserving of money, feels guilty for desiring money, avoids thinking about money.
Cade Grimm: So that would be someone who has the money script of money avoidance. Money worship is that money equals freedom and happiness. They seek fulfillment in buying more stuff. They overspend and make risky decisions.
Cade Grimm: Generally, these are workaholics. Money status is your net worth equals your self-worth. These people are prone to gambling, lying about money. That leads to overspending, unhappiness, and anxiety.
Cade Grimm: Money vigilance. Money should be saved. Handouts are bad. Avoids buying on credit. And anxiety over money.
Jim Crider: yeah I think these, so a conversation like that, you're probably not gonna have that as a first date conversation over coffee or a second date over tapas or something like that.
Cade Grimm: Right.
Jim Crider: But that, that I would say that that that conversation should be had before entering marriage is how do you view money?
Jim Crider: What is your, again, you're not gonna ask like, what are your money scripts? But like, how do you view money?
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: Like what? What role does or should money play in your life? How do you view spending it, saving it, giving it? Yeah, I think that's that's a great conversation to have. another a Another conversation that, or maybe a question to pose that would be better or easier than asking, what's your money script that can get pretty involved quickly would just be to ask, what was money like growing up?
Cade Grimm: Yep.
Cade Grimm: yeah
Jim Crider: Just asking that open-ended question and you're all sharing your stories about that. Because they're probably not going to answer of, oh, money was tight or, oh, we had a lot.
Jim Crider: If that's the extent of their answer, i would imagine your dates overall are really boring. They're probably going to disclose more detail. Oh, we had a lot of it.
Jim Crider: But that's because dad worked all the time. which I hated because I never really had a relationship with my dad, but you know, we had a lot of stuff. So that was neat. All right. Well, tell me more about that.
Cade Grimm: yeah
Jim Crider: And you start learning their, how they view money, how they view, maybe that's led to a tainted view of money. Maybe that's led to them having overspending because they don't have relationship with their dad, but dad used money as a bandaid and you would then, so you would go use, you would use that bandaid and go, go buy stuff to cover up bad relationship with dad.
Jim Crider: Maybe that's the case. Maybe it was, you should avoid money at all costs because money is bad and it shouldn't be talked about. So yeah, just opening that, that conversation of what was money like growing up, that will probably start and helping you understand
Cade Grimm: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jim Crider: your, your segment, others views on money and really where that came from. Cause it's hard to change behaviors. If you don't understand what's influencing the cause of that behavior.
Jim Crider: And I would argue that's even for yourself. Like, why do i view things this way? I've never considered that. Oh, it's probably because we grew up in a situation like X, Y, Z. i you know, we grew up without much money, but I had a rich uncle that would come around to this rich uncle had and did these things. And I always idolized him. So therefore i want those things, you know, it could be something like that. So you start realizing, oh, I have always wanted a sports car.
Jim Crider: Because the neighborhood i grew up in that was never around, but there was a guy who'd come around who was my, when I was little, was my sister's boyfriend. And i always thought he was cool. and He drove a new, a neat sports car.
Jim Crider: And even as a four year old man, i now think that a neat sports car is success because I'm viewing that through lens of seven year old me. No, I'm not saying having sports cars, that's your case.
Cade Grimm: Yep. Yeah.
Jim Crider: You have this, some weird childlike childish fantasy. But maybe that's why. So asking those questions, what was like growing up and what is influencing how I view money now and stopping and asking your, I would, I would, I would pose that you should ask yourself those conversations.
Jim Crider: And then again, if at some point, i i don't think this conversation needs to wait until
Cade Grimm: yeah
Jim Crider: engagement. I think this could be a good, fun conversation relatively early in on dating. Hey, what was money like growing up?
Cade Grimm: yeah
Jim Crider: Maybe that's me because I'm weird because I've talked about money every day for the last 10 years. So I'm really comfortable on the topic, but I think that could be a early date conversation. That's pretty quick. Like, wow, I just learned a lot about this person and you're really getting insight to like their, you You're learning about their childhood. they're learning You're learning about their family, their views on things.
Jim Crider: And I think that could be an interesting, nuanced way of getting and learning about them and what they value in life and what's impacted and what shaped who they are and how they view things.
Cade Grimm: Yeah. Like you said, that's a that's a deeper question, a deeper conversation than just, hey, how much money do you make or how much money do you have in your 401k? So yeah, I would agree that that that type of a conversation would be appropriate as early as you want, just because of all the things you're going to learn about that person as you navigate that.
Jim Crider: Yeah, I would say that that that conversation of anything we've mentioned so far is how much money do you make? How much money do you have? How much debt you have? You know, what are your money scripts? I think of any of those topics, this question should come before any of those because it's way more, you're exploring to know who they are.
Cade Grimm: Yeah, I agree.
Jim Crider: It's way more disarming and less invasive and sort of a weird question.
Cade Grimm: Yep.
Jim Crider: and So I would start there and then maybe that opens a door for learning about these other things like all right well goodness you express all these things is that why you became a doctor because xyz with money this this money script that they have that you think they might have now is that why you became a doctor like but i got your doctor i would assume now you make a lot of money like what's that like and then you start learning these things and again i'm i want to avoid making it sound like money is the
Cade Grimm: Mm-hmm.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: of of any preeminent value or of much value at all in relationship to how you choose your spouse. But again, these are so these are really important conversations I think you should have. kind I'll just tell you like, so Kendra and I,
Jim Crider: We again, we got married, i graduated college early. And then we got married in March of 2012. I should have graduated college in like May of 2012. I graduate early.
Jim Crider: So we can get married. And both of us were broke because we are recent college grads. So we didn't have we didn't we didn't get married with a bunch of money.
Jim Crider: We didn't have neither of us had debt, but neither of us had assets.
Cade Grimm: Thank you.
Jim Crider: We were very open beforehand that I told her that I had always like, in a sense, romanticized being a poor newlywed and she was okay with that. So we got married and we did that. We were poor newlyweds together.
Jim Crider: And I actually really look back on those times. Finally, we got back from a honeymoon and the day we got back from a honeymoon, we packed up the yeah U-Haul, we drove to Colorado and we lived a very modest lifestyle there for a few years.
Jim Crider: And it was really fun. We were poor newlyweds date nights was sharing a pint of ice cream while watching a movie. We didn't have, we didn't own a TV. Uh, we had a couch that was ours. That was, it was kindred couch during college that was snapped in half. So you would, you would sit and you would fall towards each other. It was a forced cuddling couch.
Jim Crider: So a date night would be sharing a pint of ice cream while cuddling on the couch because you had to lean in because it was tol to the middle and we would watch a movie on the laptop, or we would,
Cade Grimm: Nice.
Jim Crider: Pint of ice cream, I guess that's our, that was our thing. We go get a pint of ice cream and we would drive it up the mountains and, look at stars or watch lightning or something like that from the car. And i look back really fondly at those times. We didn't have to pay to have a good time. We learned about each other. We had conversations. It was just good time. And not saying that's the only way you can get married. A lot of people get married with a lot more. And I'm glad I'm not a poorly wet anymore.
Jim Crider: That's for sure. But I'm also, I wouldn't trade those things. again, we, we had a lot of conversations before marriage to understand like our families, how her, what her family was like, what my family was like, we knew each other really well, what we valued in life, our goals.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: so we didn't have any surprises there.
Cade Grimm: Yeah. And I think like you mentioned with the the whole, like what was money like growing up as, as a conversation that you could have earlier on. depending on the person, i feel like generally people like to talk about themselves because that question is much less invasive.
Cade Grimm: It might lead to them just starting, you know, sharing with you what they're, what they're like now, you know, like, man, because I, we grew up, my parents spent a ton of money and they were, they piled up a ton of debt and it was fun, but looking back, it was really unhealthy. It broke apart my parents' marriage because they had so much debt and all this financial stress. So now because of that,
Cade Grimm: I hate debt. And so I have no debt. you know, like they may just volunteer this information now because you approached it in a way that was much less invasive and much more like the the root of the question was more about, hey I just want to get to know you better and understand like what makes you who you are.
Cade Grimm: So they're, they come into that more open to sharing things, even like I said, just voluntarily, it just might, it might slip while they're just talking about themselves. So 100%.
Jim Crider: again, I want to emphasize we are not soliciting snooping tactics, but we are saying is you should get to know the person that you you're considering.
Cade Grimm: hundred percent
Jim Crider: Do I want to spend my life with this person? And that's that's really important to get to know them. And then again, starting off, we would we pose that you should have a pretty good idea about each other's financial expectations and background and and situation at some point prior to marriage.
Jim Crider: So we're just talking through how do you how do you navigate those conversations and
Cade Grimm: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jim Crider: not soliciting snooping top, uh, snooping tactics. how about this? So as we get closer to marriage, maybe, maybe it'd be argued that this conversation should happen in marriage. I would argue that should happen prior, but what about the conversation of, uh, financial responsibilities?
Jim Crider: you know, having that conversation, like, are we going to merge our finances? Are we going to keep them separate? Is someone going to be in charge of more of the strategic, how we invest, do we invest and who's going to pay the bills?
Jim Crider: I know in our household, uh, I'm a very big strategic thinker, I think, you know like more of a macro sense. And when it comes to execution, there are certain things I'm really good at executing on. There's other things, not so much. If things are outside of my daily rhythm,
Jim Crider: they probably don't happen. So I either need to write them down and make sure they do happen, or I need to get them off my plate to somebody else. So because of that, Kendra essentially fully leans on me when it comes to executing, well not executing, to leading in the strategy for our family's financial plan but she's the one who does the day-to-day like bill paying and stuff.
Jim Crider: Actually a few years ago, we moved down to New Braunfels.
Cade Grimm: Mm-hmm.
Jim Crider: actually moved, I moved down to our to our house in our town a few months before Kendra. Kendra had just had our second baby. She had a C-section. and she was living, she and the kids were living with her parents while I was down here starting a new job and house hunting.
Jim Crider: And I found a new house. I moved into it. i was getting it set up for the Kendra and the kids. And one night our power went off because I forgot to pay the power bill because Kendra does those things. And I would just forget.
Jim Crider: So Kendra, we have roles.
Cade Grimm: Mm-hmm.
Jim Crider: She does pay the bills. those things that our our power would get shut off monthly if that was up to me. But she trusts me to, i mean we have these conversations regularly about the visions and goal, the vision and goals for our family.
Jim Crider: But then when it comes to the strategy to execute that vision, she trusts me to implement and run. i don't know, Kate, how does in your family, if you want to talk about that, or like, even get my, what i want I start off with was When or how do you discuss those responsibilities? Is that conversation you wait to have? Do you never have that conversation? you hope that each other's like, you're picking up on each other's cues?
Jim Crider: you have any thoughts there?
Cade Grimm: Yeah, I would say to, uh, to your point about how you and Kendra do things where Bethany and I are the same way. Like, uh, I, I kind of come to the table with strategy and talking through like, Hey, I think this is the, this is the trajectory we should head. Here the things I think we should do to, to follow that path.
Cade Grimm: And she a hundred percent is the, she does, she pays all the bills. She kind of makes sure things are executed because she's way more organized than I am. I know that If Bethany has that task, it's going to get done. If I have that task, it will get done eventually, but might not happen on time.
Cade Grimm: So we're the same there. As far as when that when those conversations should happen, I think the conversation i think the conversations, thoughts,
Cade Grimm: at least sharing your thoughts with each other on like what, what you feel is appropriate as far as who is responsible for what, or is it a team thing or when do we merge finances? All that.
Cade Grimm: I think all of those conversations probably should happen prior to marriage as far as like executing, actually merging finances, not until marriage. Yeah. I think, I think that would be a really important thing to make sure that that you're both on the same page of like, Hey, okay.
Cade Grimm: Once we're married, Do we agree on how this is all going to go? Because at the end of the day, that's a, that is a money conversation and money decision. And I think it's healthy to make sure you're on the same page with those things beforehand.
Jim Crider: We just brought up another interesting point was yes. Once you're you you made it sound obvious of once you're married, then you merge finances, but not before.
Cade Grimm: Oh yeah.
Jim Crider: But do you should we you merge finances?
Cade Grimm: That's my belief. That's my belief, but.
Jim Crider: So kid Kate and I, we both come from a a Christian worldview. We're both Christians. So we view this through the lens of, well, like, our kindred and my wife and i like to become one and i am hers and she is mine and uh what's mine is hers and what's hers is mine and we are joint i think it'd be odd from our world view to say yes i'm yours and your mind and what's mine is yours is and yours is mine except for my my money is mine and your money is yours and we'll keep it that way that seems very odd and i would say even if you don't hold that uh that world view
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: just working with thousands of people with their money, navigating things as married couple, but still trying to navigate them from separate financial lenses makes it way more difficult 99% the time, if not a hundred percent of the time, because suddenly instead of planning cohesively from a tax strategy and investment strategy, a budgeting strategy, a retirement strategy, you're trying to plan sort of your life together,
Jim Crider: but Not really. and It's, it's, frankly, it's always, it's a pain when someone comes to us like, oh, well, yeah, we're married, but we do, we do handle our money totally differently.
Cade Grimm: Mm-hmm.
Jim Crider: It's like, all right, well, how do you want us to handle that from a tax perspective? How do you want to handle that from an investment perspective?
Cade Grimm: and
Jim Crider: are When you say you're planning for these things separately, like are you all planning on to buy a house at different times? Are you planning to buy a house in two years and you're planning to buy in seven years? Are we saving different at different rates for those things? like What do you mean by that?
Jim Crider: so i would I would certainly argue, again, you can say it's because of my worldview. and Of course, you yeah everyone has everyone has an opinion based off the worldview and everyone thinks that they're everyone thinks that they're correct until you realize you're wrong and then you change your mind and you then you think you're right again.
Jim Crider: on so Of course, even if you if your opinion differs from mine, Well, you have an opinion, but I would argue that my opinion is, is, is best as you would as well.
Jim Crider: but but but I would argue my opinion's best and it, frankly, it makes for easier planning and it's, it makes the most sense. yes, of course there are times of, well, maybe you're married and you realize that this, this person is.
Jim Crider: uh, dangerous to you physically, emotionally, financially, and you need to find a way out. Maybe you need to start doing things. So 99% of the time I would say, yes, having, having secrets financially now is goes into statistics. We talked about in prior conversation about money in marriage is hiding money, things like that. And usually that's a very big, not a good thing, but I could, you know, like we can make the case. There are times that separating assets for the sake of safety or healthy boundaries could make sense to an extent.
Jim Crider: And again, barring certain circumstances, it could make sense.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Cade Grimm: Yeah. And I, I think all that was really well said, but even, even, uh, like, like you mentioned with, without that worldview, if you just think about it from the stance of like, you know, keeping all of your assets separate, it just opens the door for more like more conflict, I think, you know, like versus if if you merge finances, you're kind of going you're going be forced to have conversations with with each other versus if, if things are kept separate, you can kind of,
Cade Grimm: do your own thing and, and you know, one spouse can spend money on this. The other spouse spends money on that. and Neither there's a lack of transparency. And I think to have like really healthy communication around anything there, you have to be fully transparent with one another and not having finances merge is just, you're just starting off with, Hey, there's, there's going to be a lack of transparency here. And I would think that is just going to increase the likelihood that there's going to be money problems in the relationship.
Jim Crider: Yeah, there's, there's times people reach out to us and say, Hey, i I want to work with you. Should I have my spouse in on these conversations? And my response is generally, well, do you, do you love this person? you spend your life with them and do you plan on spending your life with them? And if the answer is there, yes.
Jim Crider: It's like, well then yeah, we should probably at least have both spouses in the initial conversations to talk through like what's important to you both individually and as a family.
Cade Grimm: Mm-hmm.
Jim Crider: what are y'all's again, y'all's values, y'all's goals. both of you getting an idea of where you sit financially. Again, sometimes again, an hour and for Kendra and I, and then for Kate and Bethany, that conversation is usually Kendra runs the day to day, but I'm running more strategic. So maybe Kendra doesn't know all the assets we have.
Jim Crider: So getting everyone on the same page of like, Hey, here's what we have going on financially. It's a good chance to learn and make sure you're on the same page and understanding of what's going on. And then, yeah, I don't expect for every, for both spouses be beyond every conversation.
Jim Crider: Like, I don't think it's necessary for, For let's say the, the husband to be on a conversation when we're hopping in and rebalancing the wife's 401k, is that necessary? No.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: but generally like thematically, yeah, we should, we want to be on the same page and make sure we're communicating well. Cause again, money's a means of communicating what you value. And we want to make sure that each way that you communicate, i is, is understood by one another.
Jim Crider: And so we wouldn't have those conversations together and rather than trying to. segregate these parts of life and money is a large part of your life. So trying to rather than trying to segregate that today, hey, let's let's work on this together.
Cade Grimm: Yeah.
Jim Crider: Okay, I think this is a good conversation. Again, sort of an odd one. I don't have a bunch of statistics to back up my thoughts. Maybe Kate and I should go read some books. I think Kendra and I, and i I don't know Kate and Bethany's behind closed doors marriage, but say Kendra and I have a good marriage. I think Kate and Bethany do.
Jim Crider: And I like the way that Kendra and I handle our money.
Cade Grimm: Yep.
Jim Crider: We we can We've, uh, we were very open with each other from the get go. Again, we were both poor, so that made it easy. then we've grown up together and we, we have, we regularly have conversations about what is important to, to me, what's important to her, what's important to us as a couple, what's important to us as a family and making sure that we're navigating those decisions and setting goals and taking action together.
Jim Crider: I say, that's, that's, that's something that helps our marriage stay unified is just regular communication and implementation of resources towards what we have in a unified vision.
Jim Crider: So, okay. Thanks for hanging out today. yeah, hopefully this helped if nothing else, maybe this will spur an interesting conversation for you and someone you love.
Cade Grimm: It was fun.
Jim Crider: Thanks.
