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The Tohono O’odham Nation and Kitt Peak National Observatory: Building Relationships and Creating Resources - HeVo 90
445 Plays1 month ago
On today’s episode, Jessica talks with Dr. Jacelle Ramon-Sauberan (Tohono O'odham Nation Education Development Liaison at Kitt Peak National Observatory; Tohono O’odham from Wa:k Ceksan [the San Xavier District]) about her work fostering relationships between the Tohono O'odham Nation and Kitt Peak National Observatory through tours for Tribal Departments, programs, and schools, serving as a point of contact for tribal members and the Nation as a whole, sharing Tohono O’odham history and culture with general public visitors, and continuing to build on the promises made during the original agreements to lease the land from the Tohono O'odham Nation. Additionally, Dr. Ramon-Sauberan (or Dr. J.) works with the larger Astronomy community on how to be a good neighbor to Indigenous communities. Throughout Dr. J’s career, her focus has always been on providing resources and serving Indigenous communities, from journalism that focused on Indigenous people making a difference in the world to developing her dissertation that centered community voices as a resource on land and water rights in Wa:k Ceksan (the San Xavier District).
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/heritagevoices/90
Links
- Heritage Voices on the APN
- Kitt peak article
- Kitt Peak National Observatory
- Kitt Peak National Observatory Hosts Open Night for the Tohono O’odham Nation (article)
- Tohono O'odham Community College
- Mission Garden
- Friends of Saguaro National Park
- Arizona Humanities speakers group
- Arizona Humanities Lecture (Video), “Caretakers of the Land: A Story of Farming and Community in San Xavier with Jacelle Ramon-Sauberan”
- Arizona Humanities Lecture (Video), “Food Sovereignty in the Desert: Reclaiming Traditional O’odham Foodways with Dr. Jacelle Ramon-Sauberan”
- NOIRLabAstro Lecture (Video), “Information On The Tohono O'odham History And Culture”
- San Xavier Cooperative Farm
- Tohono O’odham Young Voices Podcast Episode
Contact
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store
Affiliates
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Transcript
Introduction to Heritage Voices Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
you're listening to the archaeology podcast network
00:00:09
Speaker
Welcome to Heritage Voices, Episode 90. I'm Jessica Uquinto, and I'm your host. And today we are talking about the Tonno Automation and Kitt Peak National Observatory, building relationships and creating resources. Before we begin, I'd like to honor and acknowledge that the lands I'm recording on today are part of the Nooch or Ute People's Treaty Lands, the Deneita, and the ancestral Puebloan homeland.
Meet Dr. Gisela Ramon-Sabran
00:00:31
Speaker
Today we have Dr. Justel Ramon Sabaron on the show, and she is going to introduce herself.
00:00:37
Speaker
dutash was it demo anap jugi dr deelra monarvan chop walk amaid Good day to all. My name is Dr. Gisela Ramon-Sabran, and I come from the Santa Vera community on the Thon O'odham Nation. I currently am the Thon O'odham Nation Education Development Liaison for Mior Lab that oversees Kip Peak National Observatory that sits within my reservation.
00:01:05
Speaker
And I also am an adjunct instructor at Thawnottham Community College, teaching within the Thawnottham Studies Program. And I also sit on a couple of different boards. I am a current board member for Friends of Tucson's birthplace at Overseas Mission Garden in Tucson. And I recently joined the Friends of Sorrel National Park which is near and dear to my heart and you know pretty much grew up in Soar National Park, Tucson Mountain District, which is on the west end of Tucson and was really my playground and you know just my backyard. And so really excited to be serving on on those boards. And I'm also part of Arizona Humanities Speaker Series. So I travel around Arizona
00:01:57
Speaker
and give presentations about the Anatom history and culture. Or, you know, I do a presentation on my dissertation research, which is on the history of land and water in my community, San Xavier. I'm excited to be here with you all. Yeah. So excited to have you. I also grew up in Tucson. And so this is very exciting to to get to talk about a place that's also near and dear to my heart. So that's fun.
00:02:27
Speaker
So, growing up in in Tucson, well, in San Javier, near Tucson, what what got you interested in in this type of work? How did you get into this field?
Influences and Education Journey
00:02:38
Speaker
So, that's a good question. Both my parents are retired K through 12 teachers. And my mom taught out on the main part of our reservation in Sells, which is our capital for many, many years. And I would drive with her, you know, my babysitter was in cells. And then, you know, I went to elementary school where she taught, she taught second grade for, you know, many, many years. And so my brother and sister did the same and, you know, we traveled with her. And if you don't know where the main part of the town out the nation is, it's about 60 miles west of Tucson, one way. So I was going to say, that's a, that's a commute every day.
00:03:19
Speaker
Yes, yes, it is. And so, you know, again, me and my brother and my sister, they're both older than me, but, you know, we would travel with her. And so I have these fond memories of traveling back and forth on Ahoe Way, which turns into Highway 86. And I passed Kit Peak National Observatory on a daily basis. And you know when I was young, we'd take field trips up there. And so it was very much part of growing up. And you know as I got older, there was always times when I would be drawn back to it for different reasons. And that really happened
00:03:59
Speaker
in 2010. And I was a freelance journalist at the time, my undergrads in journalism. And I was working for Indian Country Today Media Network. And this is when they were actually in New York. Now they're in Phoenix.
00:04:15
Speaker
And so, but at that time I would freelance and I would let write all sorts of different really awesome articles about, you know, my tribe and then I'd get assigned, you know, other stories and get to talk to people from all over, you know, the US and even in Canada. And so it was really awesome experience being a freelancer for them. Can you tell us about like a couple of your favorite stories working for them?
00:04:37
Speaker
Sure. So I really always like to do feature stories and do profiles. And so a big goal of mine when I was a journalist and, you know, a young journalist was I really wanted people to understand that within Indian country.
00:04:55
Speaker
You know, there's there. Yes, there's the the trauma. There's, you know, bad things that happen, but there's also good because at the time growing up, all I ever saw was these bad and negative stories coming out of Indian country, you know, where it would it it was controversial or, you know, and so I really wanted to change that narrative and and really be able to say, hey, you know what, you know, there there is good out there and there's people doing amazing things from Indian country.
00:05:25
Speaker
And so I helped with profile pieces. And so, I mean, those are really my favorite. And again, meeting people, doing all these amazing things from, you know, this one young individual, he was First Nations from Canada, and he was, you know, up and coming rapper. And just like his story of like what he had gone through, you know, that's what really just to me is hearing all different walks of life. And and so he you know was telling his story and found you know healing through music. And that was really something that he liked. And then others were just their academic careers and you know becoming lawyers. And then another, you know she was up and coming fashion designer. like you know Again, to
00:06:12
Speaker
amazing stories and what all of these different people were doing and you know and it it always tied back every person I talked to tied back to their culture their traditions and you know and I always really connected with that and so those are some of those stories and so I was freelancing you know but also too I had in journalism internships and so I had this one internship in I think it was my last year of my degree my undergrad degree, and I was assigned to work with the newspapers that were south of Tucson, so that would include like Sahuarita, Green Valley, Sierra.
00:06:56
Speaker
Yeah, your vista, like all those areas and they're all kind of networked under, you know, one news publication and the editor I worked with, he was really awesome and he was just, you know, wanting me to really push myself in terms of, you know, that's great, you know, doing features, but then also to like, what are other stories that you've been wanting to tell that you haven't? Like he was just like giving me this opportunity and I was like, cool. And I was like really into it, you know, and I would, you know, cause I did, I had these, you always had a list of stories, you know, or topics you wanted to touch on. And one of them, you know, was Kit Peak and wanting to talk about the history. And that actually came up when, you know, doing a story for Indian country today. And, you know, so it was just something that sparked an interest. And so it made it onto this list of like, Hey, that's a future story. And then I was finally able to do that with this internship I had. And,
00:07:52
Speaker
I always had been curious because I didn't know what the story was. I didn't know the history of how, you know, this ah observatory became, you know, part of the main part of the Thawn O'odham Nation, because we have four parcels that make up our 2.8 million acres, but they're not connected. And the four parcels were all designated by executive order at different times. And so,
00:08:20
Speaker
Again, always speaking my curiosity and whenever I read drive by and so I had this opportunity to write a story. And I started reaching out and figuring out, well, who could I talk to? You know, who would have this knowledge? And, you know, it led me to talking to one of my mentors and the person who actually, you know, helped me get the job that I have today with Kit Peak, her name's Katie Garmini. And, you know, she.
00:08:52
Speaker
she told me she said well this is what i know and you know shared documents and everything else that really started our our friendship and you know um me looking up to as a mentor over the years and so you know again it was really like a a starting point, right? And then being able to read through what she shared, what she knows, and then her suggesting, oh, reach out to this person and this person. And so I wrote this story and it made it into Indian country today. And then also the newspaper publications for
00:09:25
Speaker
those small communities that are south of Tucson. And it actually was a really good story. And, you know, I wish I had had more time with it. But again, it was kind of like a starting point. And that's where I still share that article, even though it's 14 years old now. But again, you know, it it opened my eyes to learning about the history, but also continuing to
Career Transition and Balancing Roles
00:09:51
Speaker
learn about it. And so today in that the job that I have as a liaison and being a bridge person between Kitt Peak National Observatory and the Thon Ophthalm Nation, I'm now expanding on that. And I'm starting to reach out to you know more of our tribal members to ask, what do you know? What stories do you remember? What you know what was passed down to you? And so hoping to
00:10:15
Speaker
Start being able to sit down with some of those individuals other I mean I've had others reach out to and talk to me and say hey You know what I somebody it'll be really great for you to talk to I'm gonna connect you you know and so again just more preliminary But it's it's exciting though because of that you know it really started things and then four years ago when I was still a PhD student, Katie reached out and said, hey, I have an idea. You know, I kind of want to run it by you. Let's meet for lunch. And so we did. And she asked if I'd be interested in a summer internship. And she was really looking for a tribal member to help
00:11:01
Speaker
be able to be a resource, but also give cultural competency presentations to staff and, you know, anybody who's visiting Kitt Peak, you know, because we there's always astronomers and scientists that come and visit and, you know, do research up on the mountain. And so,
00:11:17
Speaker
I said, sure. And so then that's where like I picked up again of like, okay, I wrote this this article, you know, so many years ago, and then how can I update it? What else has happened over time, you know, in terms of like resources I have. And so I was starting to build a presentation and I did do um a number of presentations and yeah That was kind of like the start of everything and then that internship then turned into a part-time job and then finally leading into becoming
00:11:50
Speaker
a full-time job, which was last December. I literally finished teaching classes, had a weekend off and I started my my new position with TV. But it was around the holidays. So it was like super chill, like easy, you know, really like flexible time. And I really just, you know, did things with like HR and, you know, like did those types of like when you first start a job.
00:12:17
Speaker
And so it wasn't like, you know, I hit the ground running and like had some major project. yeah But yeah, and so it's really exciting because my position is like the first of its kind. And, you know, I really saw the a need and that's why I read ah reached out to a few people that i was I worked really closely with. And I said, what did you, you know, what did you think about me coming on full-time or me proposing that at least and everyone's like yeah do it and so I said okay and you know and I and other people had kind of hinted to me too of like you know it'd be great if you were here full-time and you know and so
00:13:01
Speaker
through all of those conversations, you know, and and also I think also too through my my spirituality and how I was raised and how I grew up, you know, there's things that you don't ignore, you know, and there I really felt a draw and a pull and a need, you know, for me to step into the role that I'm in now. And so, you know, I feel there's a lot of great work that we've done going from me being an internship to part time to now. And then there's still so much more that, you know, lies ahead, but moving in the right direction. And
00:13:37
Speaker
I've also been giving really good feedback from, you know, O'odham that whether I know or I just met, you know, and given a presentation to, and they're really happy to see me in this role and to know that there is an O'odham serving in this capacity. So it makes me feel really good, you know, that I am where I am, but ah it also came with stepping down from my faculty position that I had at the O'odham Community College and That was hard but I totally haven't walked away from teaching so that's why I'm just now an adjunct instructor and I'm i'm still teaching. ah Well now I'm teaching one one class a semester but when I stepped down there wasn't anybody to replace me so I continued to still teach
00:14:29
Speaker
multiple courses, but you know i it's in my blood. you know As I mentioned, both my parents being teachers, I you know grew up in the classroom and I was there before school started, during school, after school. you know so And then I would also help my parents when I was old enough and I'd set up their classrooms for them. And you know so again, that's it's what I mean by growing up in the classroom. And and so when my mom retired,
00:15:00
Speaker
I felt the need to step in and continue but what she had passed on to me and you know many of our our generations before us and my family. And you know not not to say that i I wouldn't have otherwise, but I just really felt like you know being in an educator role was the right choice at that time. And so that's that's what I did. And I went back to school, got my master's and then my PhD.
00:15:27
Speaker
But during my PhD, pandemic happened. I also had a child and that's a lot. but And, you know, of course all of it, you know, my daughter's not planned at all, you know, him and, but then also to the pandemic and, you know, it was just, it was crazy. It was a crazy, crazy PhD. Yeah. Yeah. So, but during my time, it was just, it was hard.
00:15:56
Speaker
to do my research. So then I looked into then getting a job until I could do my research because when the pandemic hit, you know, of course there was, you know, city of Tucson ordinances in place, but also to my tribe had their own as well. And so for my tribe, those ordinances actually I felt were in place longer, you know, and so that delayed things for me even even more. And so I said, well, you know what, in the meantime, why don't I just start teaching? And, you know, I kind of did things a little bit backwards, but hey, that's okay.
00:16:33
Speaker
ah And so, you know, that I did that and I started teaching and, you know, definitely it was hard juggling having a ah young one and teaching full-time and still trying to work on my dissertation.
Challenges of Pursuing a PhD
00:16:47
Speaker
And actually my last semester I was teaching five classes and I wrote my dissertation and graduated. I don't know how to be honest, but I did and I did it. And so, you know, and I still have have those moments of like,
00:17:03
Speaker
realization of like, wow, like, ah because i just because I've been in school for so long. that I'm like, I'm done. Like, you know, and I'm a doctor of philosophy now. Like, you know, that's ah again, just really hard because I grew up very humble and, you know, and, and so, you know, to have those moments and and, and just everything, you know, that I went through, because I went through my master's into my PhD. So there was no break. And so it was nine years altogether. And,
00:17:36
Speaker
So again, you know, it's just like those times where ah it's, I don't know, it's just, I surprised myself and, you know, I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes I'm speechless about it, but you know, I am proud to say that I'm a three-time graduate of the university of Arizona. I'm a second in wildcat and the first in my family to earn a PhD. That's awesome. Yeah. So I, you know, getting into that.
00:18:05
Speaker
of you know saying that more and more you know whereas it before it was just i don't know like i never thought there was gonna be light at the end of the tunnel you know i was just like still trying to hang in there and you know push forward but then it was like getting pulled away because being faculty you know and being you know, trying trying to fulfill all the responsibilities and duties I have, but I'm like, I still got a foundation. So, you know, it was just back and forth. and But I mean, it's awesome, you know, everything that i I've accomplished and been able to do. And, you know, now again, like those times of of moments where I just am driving in the car and like, you know, thinking about things, I'm like,
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah, you know, like that happened and I did that and, you know, here we are. Yeah. So again, it's still also getting used to even being called doctor and utilizing that. And sometimes, you know, I forget and I come back to it. But again, you know, it's it's ah great to be, you know, where I am, I'm happy where I'm at. And, you know, really wanting to you know be a role model and to make my family proud and you know be just be me and you know and push myself because I always love to be challenged and you know take on you know different
00:19:34
Speaker
projects and you know be be involved in so much and a lot of people are like wow you do a lot but I'm like I love it though like that's me you know in a nutshell of like being here there everywhere but you know I also know when it's time to be like okay you know I need the weekend or you know i mean it's too much Yeah, or I'm going to go to, you know, Flagstaff and go camping with, you know, my family. So I know those moments. But yeah, I mean, that's essentially, you know, how I got into into this position. But again, you know, it's a lot of it's also just being in tune. And as often we're in tune with, you know, our environment, our jurega, as we say, our land, you know, and that incorporates, you know, the the weather, the seasons, you know, the plants, the animals.
00:20:22
Speaker
ourselves, you know, ah those that are that we love, you know, that, you know, part of our our family and friends circles. And, you know, it's just like all of that really is interwoven and intertwined together. And so, you know, again, just going where I feel, you know, there's a need and where I can definitely help out because I've always wanted to be a resource for people.
00:20:45
Speaker
and always wanting to help in any way that I can. And if I can't, then I'll find somebody who can. you know So that's, again, just how I i was raised and continuing to you know practice practices those things. and you know and And like I said, i'd be a role model and teach those to my daughter, Lydia. She's five and a half, and she's starting kindergarten this week, which is exciting.
00:21:12
Speaker
Yeah, I know. It's a big milestone. I can't believe it. And then also to my sister, she between her and her husband, they have seven kids. And so, you know again, also being there for them and you know and and all the other youth that I talk to. you and So I'm going to stop there because I feel like I could just keep going on and on and on. We have several questions, so I might've actually answered a few of those. All right. Well, we're we're already at our first break point, but I'm excited when we come back to hear more about your work at Kit Peak and some of these other topics as well. So we'll be right back.
00:21:58
Speaker
Okay.
Role at Kitt Peak National Observatory
00:21:59
Speaker
So coming back from our break, do you tell us a little bit more about your current work at Kit Peak? What is, what does that look like on a, on a daily basis?
00:22:10
Speaker
Sure. So within my position as a liaison, I do several different things. I lead tours up at the observatory with Thalnotham Nation groups. So whether it's from a program or a department, you know, on the reservation, or even like this summer, we had a lot of different summer programs come up from the Thalnotham Nation. We also had a couple come from the Pasquayaki tribe, which is a neighboring Yeah, Tribe. And so leading those tours are a lot of fun. Also too, you know, having a chance to be able to, we have um our engagement team and so working with them and, you know, wanting to engage with K through 12 school districts and talking about how we could do that.
00:22:59
Speaker
You know, and definitely, you know, a big, a big, big part of what I, what I'm doing and what I, you know, especially in the last four years is helping reestablish relationships and communication because, you know, it's no, it's no fault by either entity, meaning that I'm not the nation or, um, with Kit Peak where, you know, there were relationships established, you know, good communication between folks, but you know, people retire, people step into other positions. And so.
00:23:29
Speaker
you know, the relationships leave with these people and, you know, maybe yeah know there's somebody that comes in that they're able to say, hey, you know, this is my point of contact, but not always, you know, and so.
00:23:41
Speaker
I always wanted to make sure, again, you know, being a resource person and helping out. And so, you know, for myself, I i noticed I'm like, you know what, I don't know what goes on at the observatory. And I wonder how many other Thonotham, you know, are wondering the same thing. And so, you know, I started talking to two folks you know at the observatory and you know trying to get an understanding and a lot of it was you know because yes of course people switching and positions or leaving retiring but also too because of the pandemic and then also too we had a fire the Contreras fire in 2022 it was in the summertime so having all this shutdown you know of the observatory and with that you know people not knowing well where do I get updates or
00:24:32
Speaker
you know, and people meaning whether it's from the Thon O'odham Nation, you know, or public. And so, you know, reaching out and to tell people like, yeah, you know, you can get fire updates here or you know what, you know, this is where I'm the person to contact now, you know, for special tours if you're from the Thon O'odham Nation. So again, you know,
00:24:56
Speaker
putting that out there and being able to do that. And we also created a newsletter that we have shared with tribal members and hoping to to do that on, you know, I don't know, we haven't really decided, but, you know, I was saying at least maybe two or three times a year to share updates, you know, because not everywhere on the Thon O'odham Nation is there internet access.
00:25:22
Speaker
So being able to create a newsletter that can be electronic or print, you know, and being able to share that out on, especially the main part of my reservation, you know, is important. And so, and then also to, you know, we had a really big event in May, and it was the Thalnut Foundation Open Night. So it was an evening for just tribal members to come up and participate in all sorts of different really fun activities, visiting different telescopes, being able to look through portable telescopes once the sun went down. You know, we had a kid's zone. You could go into the visitor center and visit, you know, we have different displays up in there. We have a gift shop in there. So it was really a chance to then, you know, allow everybody to come up and be like,
00:26:16
Speaker
you know we're open again you know this is who's in this position you know and all of this and so again helping with that communication and rebuilding and you know um another part too is really being able to find a balance. So like within my himathug, which translates to way of life, we we really you know are big on having a balance you know of all you know different parts of your life. And you need to be in balance with all these things. And as I mentioned, you know
00:26:50
Speaker
so much as interwoven and intertwined. And so carrying that with me and being a liaison and looking at the observatory and saying, you know, this resides within the Thanatam Nation, specifically the Shukthawak District. And it, you know, the observatory is on top of one of our sacred mountains.
00:27:10
Speaker
You know, the Quinlan Mountains in Octum, we call it Iogum Duag, which translates to Manzanita Shrub Mountain. It also has a nickname of Ithoy's Garden, and Ithoy is our creator. So there's a lot of sacred knowledge and history on the mountain where the observatory is. So really trying to find this really good balance of, you know, sharing about our him at the, which, you know, I feel like a lot of times, you know, that's where you need to start, you know, when, you whether it's like with a tour or, you know, any information you provide, you know, and really having people understand place and where they're at. you know, because we get visitors at the observatory from all over, you know, from not only, you know, within the country, but outside the country too. And so, you know, again, having that, but of course we are at an observatory, you know, so sharing astronomy and science and, you know, just the amazing research being done, you know, and again, having this really good balance of the two. And so I've been really trying to to do that and help because,
00:28:18
Speaker
I'm up there leading tours, but also too we have docents and tour guides and so just making sure like everybody's on the same page as well. um And so, again, you know, doing all sorts of really awesome things and the tours are my favorite because I just get, you know, to engage with you know, my my people and, you know, especially when the youth come up and, you know, just talking with them. And we had youth workers that came up. So within my tribe in the summertime, our districts, they hire youth workers you know to come in and learn about, you know, maybe it's it is something that is of interest to them.
00:29:00
Speaker
you know but also to saying you know well there's these other jobs and just you know again it giving them that opportunity to work and earn some money but also to to share with them you know these are different fields these are different you know what this job entails versus this job to get them thinking about their futures and so they came up to the observatory and so I designed that tour a little differently because thinking about you know their age and what they were doing and so having them learn from different folks that work up on the mountain and telling them you know it's yes we have our astronomers and scientists up here but you know it takes
00:29:45
Speaker
so much more you know to run an observatory. You need somebody to feed everybody. You know you need somebody to manage this. You need somebody you know to fix this. And so just you know giving them that exposure of these different jobs and these different people. And it's really neat, too, because a lot of the people that talked and shared when they came up, they've been in these positions for you know quite some time and you know so again it was really neat to give them and you know that exposure of these different jobs but also too you know we got to visit a couple of the the telescopes and you know they had lunch up there with us and so and I'm always happy too to talk about my educational journey and you know
00:30:35
Speaker
ah again just be able to like be in the space with them and share so again that's like the fun part of my job that i really really really enjoy and not to say i don't like the other parts of it too but just being able to be up on the mountain and you know it's always funny too because people are like wow you drive up there every day and i'm like well no actually you know i i'm only up there when there's tours or when i'm needed you know but through june i was up there i felt like almost every day because of the different tours I was leading but on on a normal week I should say that you know I might be up there maybe once out of the week and then other otherwise you know I'm I'm working between my home office and we have a headquarters that's on the University of Arizona campus and so
00:31:25
Speaker
again just kind of splitting my time between all the different places but you know when I'm up there it's it it is something special and you know I feel very honored you know to be able to be in my position and be able to lead the different tours and you know again be that person of contact and you know we also too had a really great tour yesterday up on the mountain with one of the communities that's you know, right at the base of the mountain. And so, you know, ah again, it was great to engage with them and talk to them and, you know, hear, you know, their questions and concerns and letting them know that I'm there, you know. And so I think that's like the biggest thing. Even though we, you know, we've we've always had tribal members working at the observatory, but, you know, being in a liaison position.
00:32:16
Speaker
you know I think is a really big step and ah a big step though in in the right direction and goals and plans that we have. So if thinking about your work at Kip Peak and like where you would like to go with that work, is there something that you hope like by the end of your time there,
00:32:38
Speaker
that like this I will have done this or people will know this or you know, is there some sort of like larger goal that you have in mind that you're hoping for? That's a good question. I mean, I haven't you know, really thought about that, to be honest. You know, but I think the biggest thing though is just, you know, the the communication and the relationship because, you know, the lease was signed in 1958 between the observatory, what is now the observatory, and the Thawn O'odham Nation, which at the time we were called Papago, and more specifically the Shukthaw district, which is where the Quinlan Maoians and observatories within those boundaries. So if you're not familiar with the Thawn O'odham Nation,
00:33:27
Speaker
If you looked at my tribe as its own country in comparison to the United States, within the United States, you know, we have all of our different states or 52 states. Within the Thon O'odham Nation, our equivalent is our districts, and we have 11 districts. And then within those districts, we have communities and villages, which are similar to cities and towns.
00:33:52
Speaker
and of course you know it has to do with population and so that's how ours is too where you could have a village where there could be you know five families or you can have a community of 2,000 you know because we have in total 36,000 tribal members and so within our districts there's a chairperson and a vice chairperson and you have a district council and so own governing body for each of these different districts, just like how our states do, you know, and more specifically even thinking about, you know, like city of Tucson, council, having a mayor, you know, different things like that, that all kind of falls in line. But we do also have our three branches of government. So we have executive, legislative, and judicial. So our chairman that oversees the whole town, not the nation, is the equivalent of the president of the United States.
00:34:46
Speaker
And so that's how we're we're structured, governmentally. And so for the observatory, you know, the first people, you know, that we go to for, you know, any updates and, you know, sharing or any permission is with the Shukthwa district. And so, but again, you know, when that lease was signed in 1958, you know,
00:35:12
Speaker
it took some time for those tribal leadership to have a really good understanding of what an observatory was going to be, what telescopes did, you know, who astronomers were, you know, and so it took quite some time, you know, to to have those discussions because also too you had tribal members this is you know in the 50s that didn't speak English so you had to have translators too you know to help with those conversations but then also too there had to be this long-standing agreement of
00:35:49
Speaker
you know, yes, we're going to lease this to you, but you need to uphold, you know, some of those things included providing ah job opportunities for tribal members, being able to have tribal members sell the arts and crafts in the visitor center, you know, being able to provide educational opportunities, not only for the public, but tribal members as well. So, you know, and and there's more in there, but again, there was just, it was beyond just being, okay, we're going to lease this land to you.
00:36:17
Speaker
you know, it was like there's these certain things that, you know, we want you to uphold that will benefit and help us as autism. And so, you know, I just want to help with that to continue that. And, you know, again, having really good communication and having good relationships is a big part of that. And, you know, stepping into to this role and being able to help with that, you know, I hope that in the future, you know, there will be there can be more tribal members in my role or like we could have our own, you know, like little team. And that way, you know, when it's, when it's time to, you know, leave or retire, you know, then I know that it'll be in good hands where there'll be somebody continuing this work, you know. But I think also too, I also, you know, this is more local, but
00:37:09
Speaker
I do a lot to national with colleagues in Hawaii and boom we've been working together to really be able to help the astronomy community learn how they can engage with native and indigenous tribes groups closest to them, you know, and they're, they have a report is the decadal report and a big part of that was saying, you know, as astronomers as scientists, you know, and you think about what sort of relationship if you have a relationship or how you can start one and be a good neighbor to again, you know, the native indigenous peoples closest to where you're working, you know, and so I think a lot of folks
00:37:57
Speaker
again, didn't you know they they saw that, but they didn't know where to start. And so between myself and my colleagues in Hawaii, we've been going to conferences to help give you know folks tools to use and you know it's and providing information to them of you know where to start and how to do that. And so that just goes back to me and wanting to be a resource, but you know I really,
00:38:23
Speaker
yeah I feel like there's there's good things happening now and you know and it's really great to meet all different folks. And then even after conferences for people to reach out and be like, it was really great meeting you. I have questions. you know Can you talk? again So you know again, those are just different things that I've been doing. And you know i again, I just want everybody to just you know be happy and be really you know engaged with each other and you know collaborating and having partnerships and you know everything in between there. And that's I think for me, that's really a big goal of mine. And over the years and all the different things I've been doing, I've been able to
00:39:08
Speaker
build, you know, my my network of go-to people. And so, like, for when we had the Thalnatham Nation open night, you know, I said, well, I know, you know, so-and-so, and I know somebody here and here. And I'm like, I'm going to pull them in. And so it was really great because we had Soar National Park, we had Pima County Public Library, we had Tucson Children's Museum, you know, and You know, they were they were there to support and also Arizona Humanities. A couple of really great people I work with drove from Phoenix to come to that event and, you know, have an info booth and, you know, just make it a really fun night. And so again, I was i realizing I'm like, you know what, I'm like.
00:39:58
Speaker
I know people, ah you know, I have friends and, you know, connections and all these different places and, you know, others really wanting to, you know,
00:40:09
Speaker
they didn't know how to engage with Kit Peak, but always wanted to, right? And so a couple of those organizations are like, yeah, that'd be awesome. You know, we're trying to reach tribal members and I've never been to Kit Peak. So, you know, that let's, you know, we'll come out, let's do this. And so that's been really great. But I think that's another part too, too, is like building partnerships. So like in a nutshell, you know, I just, you know, what big, big goals is, you know, making sure that Our communication is good. You know, people are happy, you know, and we have these really great collaborations and partners, you know, in everything that we're doing and, you know, really being able to provide, like I said, with what's in the lease to tribal members and, you know, always keep up upholding and keeping, you know, what the observatory said it was going to do.
00:41:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's awesome. I also, I'm, I think that's so cool that you're going to, you know, astronomy conferences and things like that. And, you know, hopefully trying to avoid like Monica type situations. So that's awesome. Cool. Well, we were already, it goes so fast already at our second break point. But, um, when we come back, I would love to hear some more about your, your dissertation. So we will be right back.
00:41:35
Speaker
Okay.
Dissertation Focus and Community Impact
00:41:36
Speaker
So as promised before the break, I'm really curious to hear more about your dissertation work. Obviously, growing up in Tucson, land and water is a big topic. So so definitely really curious to hear what got you into that topic, you know what you found, some major takeaways, things like that about your dissertation.
00:41:57
Speaker
Yeah, so when I decided to go back to school, so I graduated my undergrad and then I was like, I'm just going to get out of Tucson. I want to travel, you know, and I did. I studied abroad in Italy. I was. Yeah, it was ah amazing. I spent a whole summer there and then I.
00:42:21
Speaker
was living in Seattle, Washington. I had a journalism internship there. And then I moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I was working there for the Osage Nation and their tribal newspaper. And so, yeah, and so I got to explore and I have, you know, friends I still keep in touch that, you know, are living in Seattle and Oklahoma. And so,
00:42:50
Speaker
When I was starting to think about, you know, next steps, I'm always, you know, thinking my future and, you know, all that, all that great stuff. And my dad had encouraged me to go back to school and, you know, I kept thinking about, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then finally I was like, all right, I miss home, you know, and packed up.
00:43:15
Speaker
left my job and applied at the University of Arizona and so I started with my masters and I have always loved history and I always made a point to do research on just things I was curious about when it came to my culture and, you know, just things I wondered about. So I always, you know, my topics always definitely related back to my tribe. And so, you know, with that, for my masters, I wrote a biography on the late Dr. Bernard Bunny Fontana,
00:43:54
Speaker
who ah was an anthropologist and he spent his life's work writing about the Thun O'odham Nation and also the San Xavier del Bach Mission, which sits within my community. And he was a neighbor. He lived five houses north of, like, where my grandma's house, which is now my mom's house, and, you know, my auntie, my uncle, my sister, like, all of us kind of live, you know, in this kind of neighbors, this whole little area together. And so, but yeah, and so I always was like really curious about him and I wrote a biography and then
00:44:30
Speaker
after that, you know, and he got a lot of good attention from friends and family within my community. And, you know, some people saw him as a community member because he lived right off of our reservation. And, you know, and he was, he had some really, I would say, good, good best friends, you know, they just neighbors and everybody really liked him. And so, you know, I also did that because my mom and my older, my mom's older sister, auntie Julie, you know, they, they really, you know, had fond memories of him and he'd give them rights to the University of Arizona when they were going to school and he was a professor there. So, you know, it's just kind of like a ah
00:45:14
Speaker
but a nice way to, like I said, honor him. so But then having that, because he provided so many resources and he had had this really like deep appreciation for O'odham and wanting to help and you know share his knowledge and provide you know what he could. And so there's these really great foundational documents that really have helped me as an Otham scholar and you know to have something to you know work off of right when you're doing research and wanting to see what's out there you know that predates when you were born and you know' be able to to just
00:45:52
Speaker
get a glimpse into you know what life was like. you know And so with that, it led me into what my dissertation research topic is. And the title of my dissertation paper is The History of Land and Water in San Xavier.
00:46:12
Speaker
And so a lot of it started within my masters and just what Bunny had written. And, you know, again, it was just kind of at the time I was writing more about his life, right. And why, you know, he chose.
00:46:26
Speaker
to live you know right like right off of the the boundaries of my community. you know like just I just wanted to know about him. And so whenever I would find something that he did, you know whether it was like a report or you know anything, I just kind of was like, oh, I'm going to come back to this.
00:46:46
Speaker
And so when I was in my doctoral program, I started to then figure, try to figure out like, what should I write about? What should my topic be? And I talked to my mom and I, you know, I talked to my auntie Julie and she was the one that really told me that.
00:47:04
Speaker
I should put, you know, ah essentially a resource, create a resource that talks about the history because so many people don't know our history. And where I come from in Santa Veer, our history and what has transpired within my community is a bit different than the other three parcels that make up the Thon O'odham Nation. And it's because we have the Santa Cruz River.
00:47:29
Speaker
that flow, you know, for so, you know, many years, and we were able to keep that water flow, you know, alive until, you know, we had outside entities, you know, that started to go in and pump the water and they didn't have the same mindset as us as, you know, we just take what we need and they took it all. And, you know, that range from farmers and, you know, the city of Tucson was involved with, you know, doing that as the population grew. And so, you know, also too, having Jesuit priests, Father Eusebio Kino come through and
00:48:13
Speaker
build you know the the mission and so again you know it's just our our history and encounters and you know just what has transpired over time was a bit different and that also includes having my community be part of the Dawes Act and having a lattice or, you know, also referred to as landowners. And we were never put here to be owners of the land. We're here to be caretakers. So, you know, throwing that, you know, into the mix here. And so when my auntie was talking to me and she was like, you know, in terms of history,
00:48:56
Speaker
She said that a lot of people, you know that then become a lot to use their landowners, you know They don't understand the importance of it They don't understand how we became to be a lot to ease and what that means and what that entails and you know And it was true. We really didn't have Anything written down you had to go talk to different people my auntie was one of those people you know that was that is a a knowledge keeper and so she you know a lot of times people were like you know oh yeah you know your auntie's the one that always go and talk to you you know or have questions when it comes to land and water rights and you know and but for her you know she she realized she's not gonna live forever and she wanted to pass this knowledge on and so i stepped up and i said i you know will gladly accept because i'm a future lattee i need to know this
00:49:47
Speaker
You know, and again, it was like going back to with Kit Peak of, you know, how many others don't know the history of Kit Peak or don't you know know what's going up at the but mountain every day as we say. You know what I mean? And so then that was kind of also for me, too, I was thinking about with this topic, I was just like, I wonder how many other people kind of know things because I did, you know, because I asked questions growing up. But you know, don't know the full, full history and don't know, you know, the importance of being a landowner and, you know, they have questions, but they've never known where to go or turn to. And so I said, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll gladly, you know, accept the, the duties of learning. And then also to, you know, a big part of what I wanted to do is
00:50:39
Speaker
where it was to stay true to our traditions because we're an oral society. And I was going to do something that is not within our traditions, which is to write something down, right? And so I wanted to be mindful of that and I wanted to get permission of, is this okay to do? Because i I saw that You know, we've lost so many elders over the years and, you know, whether they were able to pass the knowledge on or, you know, or in a lot of cases they weren't, so that knowledge is gone. And by having my my dissertation research be on this topic and the way I wanted to structure it,
00:51:24
Speaker
you know, we were able to be able to preserve. And I did audio interviews, so I recorded, you know, and, but then also to add it transcribed. And I really wanted my dissertation to
00:51:38
Speaker
be able to let people hear from these individuals that lived these events. Because a lot of them happened before I was born. And you know i I wanted, again, to for people who are reading my dissertation to hear directly from these people. And I'm just there guiding it all. And I'm adding you know information throughout. But that also stems back from me being a journalist and you know letting you hear from you know different people and I wrote it that way you know and I Of course filled in and you know did my part as a scholar and a researcher and everything But it was really to have their voices be heard and especially since having this oral heart to it and being able to record audio
00:52:27
Speaker
You know, i and I again talked about, you know, people passing away. I had two of the people I interviewed pass away before I finished writing. So, you know, that just lent.
00:52:39
Speaker
You know, to, it kind of really leaned on what I was talking about and, you know, kind of open people's eyes of like, Hey, you know what, this is really important. Like we, you know, really need to think about writing more things down, right? Um, or recording it in some way. And it kind of like, ah like I was starting to say, kind of like lent, you know, attention to that and people then were like more on board. You know, not to say anybody was against me writing my dissertation on this, but you know, I, I mean, there was certainly hesitation on my part too, but you know, it all came together and I learned so much and I was able to interview 15 people and you know, I did tons and tons of research and dived into, you know, the tons of rabbit holes.
00:53:28
Speaker
and you know and i care about A couple of times in my dissertation, Sherry is an amazing person. He kept saying, okay, that's great, but you got to come back. That's for a later project. And I'm like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
00:53:43
Speaker
But, you know, again, i I wrote, you know, something that is a resource and it's a living document and it's, you know, I really look at it as my life's work. And, you know, I graduate, I mean, you're out now, you know, graduating in 2023, but it's been really awesome to just see it all come together and to go through the experience and learn so much from my own family and others, you know, that are community members, you know, and or relatives and, you know, just even some of them like, I didn't know you were part of that, you know, and then they laugh at me. They're like, yeah, you know, this and that. And so it was really great to to have that and
00:54:29
Speaker
I think you know what I put together you know I've really gotten really good feedback from people and you know because how can you talk about the present and plan for the future if you don't know the history and so I really wanted to be able to give that history and give people a starting point so they have that understanding so then they can move into these other parts and you know at the center of your cooperative farm you know which i'm very proud of of the farm and you know the amazing work that the individuals that work there are doing and so you know they had shared at one of their meetings that you know
00:55:12
Speaker
they were really happy with with having a copy and being able to read.
Preserving History and Education
00:55:16
Speaker
And I did a presentation for them too because you know everybody had a better understanding. And that just made me happy because I'm like, that's what I want. I want people to know and you know and put my my dissertation paper on their shelf and always know they can reach to it for you know a reference or you know and to share it with others and just have this really clear understanding of what transpired for us you know and how we lost our water but then you know we stood up and we fought to get it back and you know just again what really took place over time and you know thinking about the future because in Arizona, you know we're we're talking about climate change on a daily basis. We're talking about environmental issues. We're talking about drought, you know all of these different things. And so again, it's it's been great because I really set up my last chapter of that of like, well, you know this is what's been in in conversation. you know This is what I've been reading. And these are really great
00:56:23
Speaker
You know, jumping off points and so I've been since I graduated and finished my paper, you know, being part of climate change workshop in my community, being able to attend, you know, community planning meeting, you know, working on some grants right now to be able to, again, continue these conversations and help in any way so you know We stay informed and we're educat you know educating each other and sharing like our expertise in our different fields and you know and just you know again moving forward and being within the community, you know again, coming together in different ways. and yeah i guess I think the biggest thing is just staying informed. and so
00:57:09
Speaker
You know, it's been, it's, it was an experience, but, you know, I'm continuing on and, you know, next steps definitely wanting to do publications. We've talked about, um we, meaning and like my family and some of the different organizations I worked closely with during my dissertation about publishing um my dissertation um into a book.
00:57:32
Speaker
And so we'll see, we'll see where things go. But, you know, i've I've been able to go all over Arizona and present about my dissertation topic and, you know, just really inform people, like I said, like, you know, inform people, but also make sure my community is informed and, you know, making sure that they have the resources. And, you know, we continue talking and having conversations about these very important issues that we're facing, you know, in Arizona. And You know, again, also our youth, it's so important for them to know these things and be part of these conversations. So it's been great to see those coming to our meetings and you know even my nieces having them come to and and being part of everything because they are our future leaders, you know? And so it's, and for me, it's like stepping into like kind of this next stage of my life too, where I'm like, I'm not this little like high school, like, you know, I'm I'm auntie, like I'm now stepping up, you know, being in these roles. And I'm just like, you know, the adulting and everything. And I'm like, and I'm a mom now, and you know, all these things. And so, you know, it's like all these things that were
00:58:44
Speaker
told to us and so some of my other friends were I'm like we're it now like we're doing these things and you know they're like I know and I'm like it's kind of scary but you know we we knew this day was gonna come and so then now you know we're talking to the younger generations and saying hey you're gonna be up here in our you know our our positions too you know so and you know we want you to have you know that confidence and you know be passionate and you know carry on and so I think that's another big thing for my research was you know being able to yes provide but also to to have the youth also know like hey you know what this is what happened and
00:59:28
Speaker
you know and when you you become a tribal leader you know this is this is something and that you can refer to or you know you'll know you can come to me to ask questions you know and whenever you need help and so yeah it's just all these different moving parts but again like ah I was saying earlier you know everything is really interwoven and intertwined and you know it's just again you know being a resource being helpful in any way that I can is really what I've always wanted to do and will continue to want to do. And that's, that's in a nutshell how everything came to be. And, you know, and and it was, you know, of course, for my research and academic wise, but also like personally, I learned so much. And, you know, because I need to know these things, especially when it's my time to step into being an Alotier landowner and, you know, concerned with these different issues and going to meetings and you know being able to vote and make decisions on again different things that are relating to our our land and water rights. so Yeah well and I'm so excited you sent me your dissertation so we will as long as everything goes right with uploading it there's no issues that should be in the show notes so look for that in the show notes there also will be some some other really great links including a couple of videos
01:00:52
Speaker
from Arizona humanities of you talking about some different topics. So everyone definitely check all of those out. The the show notes will be a ah wealth of ah resources. And I just wanted to say thank you again so much for coming on and talking to everyone today. And, you know, it be still my Tucson heart. it It was just so great to to learn from you and hear more about this important work that you're doing. So thank you.
01:01:22
Speaker
You're welcome, and thank you for having me.
01:01:28
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Heritage Voices podcast. You can find show notes at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com slash Heritage Voices. Please subscribe to the show on iTunes, Stitcher, or the Google Play Music Store. Also, please share with your friends or write us a review. Sharing and reviewing helps more people find the show and gets the perspectives of Heritage Voices amazing guests out there into the world. Don't we just need more of that in anthropology and land management? If you have any more questions, comments, or show suggestions, please reach out to me at Jessica at livingheritageanthropology.org. If you'd like to volunteer to be on the show as a guest or even a co-host, reach out to me as well, Jessica at livingheritageanthropology.org. You can also follow more of what I'm doing on Facebook at livingheritageanthropology and the nonprofit Living Heritage Research Council, or on Twitter at livingheritagea. As always, huge thank you to Liable Enqua and Jason Nez for their collaboration on our incredible logo.
01:02:34
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, Dig Tech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.