Transcript
UKRunChat: Hi, Sam. Thanks for joining us on the podcast today. and So just just give us a flavour of what... dragon's back race is for those people who haven't actually come across this iconic race before
Sam: Yeah, I mean, where to start? It's... um I mean it's... a kind of legendary iconic multi -stage ultra which takes participants across um the Dragon's Back of Wales.
Sam: The event first happened in 1992. um and it was considered so difficult that only a small group of military were allowed to were invited to take part in it. It then didn't happen again. for 20 odd years and was bought back by a company called Rare Events.
Sam: um who have been delivering it ever since. ah Sadly earlier this year at a rare events. went into administration and um It was, yeah, kind of... un The event became a little bit uncertain and that's where we stepped in and got involved. But the event itself is now 380 kilometers.
Sam: Six stages. 17 ,000 meters of ascent. across some of the most remote gnarly technical terrain. um of Wales and it's a an amazing epic adventurous course. um that will challenge anyone on on the on the planet. And to many, it's, you know, the toughest mountain race on the planet. um To many, it's kind of...
Sam: a serious kind of notch on the bedpost kind of thing um and um and it's uh it's been really eye -opening and interesting to kind of learn more about it particularly over the last um five, six months as we've got. a lot more involved.
UKRunChat: Yeah, I mean, it's it must have been a bit of a kind of... a rush to get it kind of off the ground again, because in early spring, it it wasn't happening, was it? Because the the event was off, the previous kind of custodians had gone into administration. So what what kind of prompted you to step in? and and look after the event.
Sam: Yeah, I mean... It was... um It was a kind of funny time. um arrear announced the the administration which effectively meant that. three events um that they planned and and sold entries for this year.
Sam: uh at that position weren't weren't going to go ahead which meant that um the Cape Wrath Northern Traverse and Dragons Back Race. Um, we currently without someone to deliver them. um We, um...
Sam: Organize multi -stage events. um We love the space. um We are based in the UK. um And. I mean... all of us and me personally have always followed the events that Ray had put on, and in particular the Dragons' Back Race, which, as is we kind of alluded to, is is just so iconic. um and so effectively, we were we were quite quickly in conversations with them to see.
Sam: if there was an opportunity that they could be saved because it it would have just been a... A huge shame if these... events hadn't continued um but also if all of those competitors that had you know,
Sam: paid money. done a load of training Um, given up. actually a lot of kind of time even you know even the event which was five months away you know these events are things that people you know prepare for months if not years for. um weren't able to kind of realise that. so um Yeah, it was ah We kind of had to jump in quite quickly. And then, as you say, um and rightly so, there was a bit of a scramble to...
Sam: get everything together to deliver this year's event. In fact, there was kind of two months in the middle. um March, April, um where... It was a lot of uncertainty. all the All the suppliers, all the stakeholders, all the campsites, all the permits effectively weren't expecting the the event. um However... um and it's testament to all of the work. Array ahead. had ah done in previous years, um but also the amount of support and goodwill there is for this event. um
Sam: It was amazing how many people... as soon as the event was back on, jumped in to support it and and make it happen. um and um for For us, you know it was a huge learning of um you know, how... how unique and how special this event is. um And so...
Sam: Yeah, it was great to be. um finally uh standing at the start line in conwy castle um what now two weeks ago and it and i actually felt like you' almost you know surreal um being there and the whole week itself was a bit of a celebration of ah of an event which could quite easily not not have been
UKRunChat: Yeah, I mean, that that that start line itself looks looks epic because it's it happens kind of, it isn't dark is it it it's the There's singing, there's all the runners standing there kind of ready to to go into the fire, really.
Sam: Yeah, so it's... Yeah, it's...
UKRunChat: its It looks brilliant.
Sam: I mean it is. You know, it is. very very atmospheric and I've you know, I've Been fortunate enough to... travel and do lots of amazing events in lots of amazing pre places but i i don't think anywhere quite matches that.
Sam: you know, moment, as you say, kind of dark in the centre of Conwy Castle, you know, um there's kind of... like so this kind of plain chant music coming on in the background and then...
Sam: We light the red flares and kind of lead the runners out in a procession through the castle gates. and um there's this kind of moment and the wind in particular this this year was kind of blowing it all. Okay. in towards the castle so you could see the kind of runners heading out and this kind of um under the gates and this red smoke billowing in and it kind of looked like they were kind of entering the gates of hell to begin this
Sam: this week of um of adventure and uh you know this journey um but it was um Yeah, it's it's pretty iconic. And I think anyone that's... been there, experienced it, seen it.
Sam: um we'll we'll know a little bit what it feels like but it was um yeah very very cool
UKRunChat: So what I'm interested like what what the organization of something like this actually involves and you've obviously got a lot of experience in putting on multi stage races haven't you very long distance events in far -flung places but like what What's involved in putting on? it' It's effectively a week -long event, isn't it? It's huge.
Sam: Yeah, so so there's there's really kind of two pieces, and one is the race. um and one is the kind of infrastructure and support around it. And you're right, it is... it is I mean, it's actually not a week -long race. It's really six individual races.
UKRunChat: right
Sam: So each each stage is effectively a standalone race. So effectively you are putting on six.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Sam: probably if you pull out A few of them. definitely day one definitely day two maybe day five you know three of the toughest probably single stage ultras in the uk um We're kind of putting them on back to back and then in between.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Sam: We are building and dismantling a camp for... 300 people which is um fully supported. so building a kitchen a full field kitchen so we can provide um you know Two full.
Sam: meals a day as much as much food as people want completely unlimited um we're building uh Yeah. tense Because a lot. competitive stay there. We're building a kind of field hospital. We're building a race control. um And the way we operate is... um we effectively because we don't have enough time to um bunny hop every single day we effectively have two campsites which are built at any one time
UKRunChat: Right.
Sam: So there's a... There's a lot of moving parts and it is a bit bit of a military operation. um and There are a lot of... very experienced people kind of doing quite specific things. um And it was yeah it was it was really interesting Because coming from my perspective of it as having organized stage rent but of eight stage races for now eight years for Ultra X.
Sam: in that. um because of the scale of the... um the support um and the kind of campsite which is is is in on on another level than than our events because typically that our events are self -supported people bring their own food we provide in the campsites it's quite quite minimal.
Sam: There are so many. very specific teams you know i'm i'm kind of very used to the the race management but actually for this event that's only like one of four quite big teams that are doing doing the delivery of it. So so that was pretty amazing to to kind of see and be involved in and and learn about and and and deliver. um But it's... um yeah It's a well -oiled machine and I think um yeah the the kind of feedback we've got already has been has been amazing and yeah we're really excited for next year.
UKRunChat: Yeah, that's brilliant. and And entries are opening very soon, aren't they, as we record this for next year?
Sam: Yeah, so entries open on the 27th and it's going to be, yeah, we're we're really excited for it.
UKRunChat: yeah
Sam: and We've had got over a thousand people now registered interest, which hopefully is ah a sign that people have, of you know. seeing that we can we can deliver the event and um hoping to join us next year which would which would be get great because um ultimately the event to continue needs needs competitors and need supporters and and um yeah we're more we're super excited to deliver it um but obviously we we do need people to come and and Join us.
UKRunChat: Yeah. So how many people do you let in? Like it must be limited entries because there were 210 runners on the start line this year, weren't there?
Sam: Exactly, yeah. so ah The... In the past, there's been... up to around 500 participants. there's There's four formats of the event.
Sam: um and kind of really three so uh for the full week you can you can come and do um what we call the full dragon which is every day 380 kilometers over six stages. But you can also register and do what we call the hatchling, which means if you don't finish.
Sam: Stage one.
Sam: or stage three or stage five um you can continue and basically choose to do half of each day you can either start from the beginning and do the first half or you can do start from the halfway point which effectively and people get a medal and so they and they can actually opt for this at the very beginning if they prefer to experience the whole week but actually do half the distance um so we kind of have both of those and then we also have um what we call the dragon's fire and the dragon's tail dragon's fire is the first two days of the event um and you also stay in camp you experience that you have the food um or the dragon's tail which is the kind of final two days so there's
Sam: um several options there i think Our limit for the entire event is about 500 people. um And if we could get. close to that we'd be we'd be really happy but um yeah at the moment it's kind of getting us over that 300 to 350 person mark we'd be really happy with for next year just to just to kind of allow allow that growth but to make sure that we're doing it you know sustainably
UKRunChat: Yeah, but so what what kind of people do you get? like registering for the event then have they have they got a lot of experience at multi -day events. before.
Sam: Yeah. It's um it's it's interesting. um coming with my Ultra X hat on because the, I guess the... the average customer is slightly different in in that.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Sam: typically very experienced typically um had done multi -stage events before and and also what's interesting is um it's an event where people Often. come back to year after year. um often because people don't finish because because of the nature of the challenge you know this year we had a 40 sorry just under 40 finish rate um And so.
Sam: you know actually finishing on your first attempt is um is amazing and and and and not a lot of people do so but a lot of people then come back because you know you've got unfinished business with the dragon so um Yeah, I'd say... It's...
Sam: um an experienced crowd um a crowd of of people that really want to kind of test themselves but you know my ethos is completely that uh you know anyone is capable of of ah of you know doing these kind of challenges um and It's really just about...
Sam: the right preparation and the right support and what our goal is. with this event is to create one of the most physical was one of the most physically challenging and also um I guess. um well generally challenging events from your kind of it's going to test your admin it's going to test your skill on the mountain it's going to test your um you know how you hold yourself over six days But also on the same side, we want to provide that support.
Sam: to make sure that it's as safe as possible and that you have the infrastructure, whether that's the food at the finish line or the start line. or the camp setup to enable you to do that.
Sam: So it's kind of...
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Sam: Yes, it is really tough, and that's that's the point. But also, we really do want you to finish. that is that is we we don't We don't want to kick people out on day one. or or get them downgraded to hatchling.
UKRunChat: No.
Sam: That's kind of that's kind of our ethos. so um Yeah.
UKRunChat: yeah what What is it in your experience this year that... kind of stops people from finishing. the rice.
Sam: um It's... It's actually quite rarely the physical side i think i think people typically over emphasize the physical side when they're preparing for these events i think often the reason you know I mean, sometimes bodies break down after six days.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Sam: I think that's quite normal. um but actually it's the it's the kit it's the admin it's what what do you do when you get back into camp to get yourself ready for the next day um you know quite often people are coming in you know in the dark they they're in shared tents it's like okay how how do you make sure you're recovered you're getting your fuel in, you're...
Sam: prepping your kit you're drying it off whatever you're doing getting into your sleeping bag getting the night the the the right rest for the next day. So actually. It's a lot more about like systems and and admin and strategy that it is about.
UKRunChat: yes
Sam: um like physical fitness um i do also think um knowing what the course is like you know we have um a pretty UK -based field. One of our goals is to is to make it a little bit more of an international event. um i think where people have the opportunity to getting time on the course is really really will make a huge amount of difference particularly some of days one and days two where you know, the the kind of. um
Sam: crib gawk area um and and kind of uh over the rinogs is is is quite remote uh can be really technical can be very different to you know If you're running in ah in a city, for example, it's it's a different sport.
UKRunChat: Yeah. Yeah, very.
Sam: um And so having that kind of awareness will make it will make a huge amount of difference.
UKRunChat: yeah Yeah, so how but how much of the course do you know? Have have you done any any parts of it?
Sam: um I know... A lot of it, and definitely not all of it.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Sam: we We used to do one of our events. in kind of South Snowdonia over the Cadder Idris and Rhinog region and actually we also had ah an event which went a little bit further south so more like Mahuntleth which is the day three of the course.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Sam: um which is always very exciting because there's a good co -op there and all the runners can can go and grab the food that that they've been craving for for the last three days. um So i know I know a lot of it quite well, um but definitely not all of it.
UKRunChat: Yes.
Sam: um uh and uh yeah kind of one of One of the things I'm hoping to do over the next few years is is get a little bit more time on the ground, but it's it's not often easy when you're on on location during the event.
UKRunChat: No, I can imagine your your priorities are elsewhere, aren't they, on on giving your... your participants are good a good event. Yeah. So you you were running yourself, Sam?
Sam: uh yes i would describe myself as a runner um i've uh yeah i mean ultra x was kind of Um, founded, I mean, there's two co -founders. but partly because I kind of had experience of ultramarathon.
Sam: um running and found the the sport transformative um amazing inspirational and and Effectively our tracks were set up because we want to get more people into that space and make it a little more friendly make it a little more accessible and try and bring more people into that world because um We know.
Sam: all of the positive things that that can come out of it. and Yes, I kind of... seem to... I seem to have done everything from Phi. People often ask what's the your favorite distance or what's your best distance, but I mean, I've...
Sam: um been lucky enough to do everything from 5k to 100 miles plus um and... um Yeah. and enjoy enjoy a bit of everything, enjoy the big big events, enjoy the local park run, and enjoy the fell race and and everything kind of in between. um and And... And yeah, love love putting on events as well. it see It seems that every year I do this, I i end up doing slightly less racing.
Sam: and my fitness And my fitness goes down a little bit. but ah Yeah, it's... um it's something i really enjoy
UKRunChat: So what are you aiming for personally in your running over the next few years? Have you got your eye on anything?
Sam: Um. so it's It's funny. i did one of I was out in Chamonix at the end of August to do one of the UTMB events. And for the first time, probably in about... four years.
Sam: I don't have an event in the calendar. um And it's partly because I'm also about to have my first child in like... a couple of weeks time so I'm kind of...
Sam: putting off racing for a while. I'm going to focus focused on family and home.
UKRunChat: Sensibly, yes.
Sam: um and um being present with Ultra X things. and kind of...
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Sam: do do uh you know, run run for enjoyment, rather than putting too many things in the diary. but I've got a long list of um of bucket list events. and I think probably at the top is is Western States out and out in the US, which I think I'm about six years or seven years into the ballot now.
UKRunChat: yeah i will yeah well hopefully good good luck with that at some point yeah Yeah. And so dragons back then. So
Sam: Yep.
UKRunChat: is it Is it going to stay as it is or have you got plans for further kind of, because you because you introduced the new Dragon's Fire this year. So have you got more plans to kind of expand that? further rule.
Sam: um
Sam: Actually, not that much, no.
UKRunChat: Hmm.
Sam: um We... We've spent the whole kind of. most last six months learning. as much as we possibly can about about the event how it's delivered um where um improvements.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Sam: can be made and whether that's kind of behind the scenes or actually with regard to the product um and what Firstly, you know we The event itself.
Sam: is loved. um and having now been on location and been a part of it. it is it it works really well and people you know the experience is is great so We really don't want to.
Sam: tear it up and start it again we really don't want to make it dragons back by ultra x or you know anything like that this is an independent event with an independent community and a group of people that care deeply about it. So.
Sam: Yeah, absolutely there will be change. um But to be honest, I think that's going to be really gradual and over a period of years. um We're opening 27 this weekend. um and Apart from a couple of...
Sam: almost negligible kind of operational things. People aren't going to. see anything different on on what's included. or where the course goes what the campsites um where the campsites are um but Because I think... changing it would do more damage at this stage than than than benefiting. um and um Yeah, I think... um we're We're very conscious that. um
Sam: yeah we we kind of don't want to don't want to change something which which works and and do it gradually and do it slowly. But um i'm I'm sure there will be changes. you know but but relatively slow ones.
UKRunChat: Yeah, that's brilliant. So what what was the best part of this year's event for you then?
Sam: um That's a good question. I... We've already mentioned it. Starting... Being at the start line. Conwy Castle. um I'd actually had an event in Slovenia the weekend before. So we the the event, that was Monday morning.
Sam: I was race directing an event in Slovenia Saturday, Sunday, so I flew from Venice on Sunday night. Got in late on Sunday night, drove the start line.
Sam: ah for like 4am on so monday morning and then and it was this kind of because you know my co founding quite a lot of the team had been on location doing all the briefings, etc. Saturday, Sunday, but I literally arrived.
Sam: to the start that was my first like like a runner um and So being there for that was was surreal. like kind of pinch me moment as a as someone who kind of loves the sport and has followed it for ages and then being on the other side and you know picking up my kind of crew uniform um was um was was pretty amazing um And I think the final day, i mean maybe it's too obvious to say, but...
Sam: you know seeing seeing people finish. um After. you know I always find with stage races, it's it's always the same. kind of journey as member of crew or a race director or whatever you know you get like probably three or four days in, and you're like...
Sam: Wow, have we have we got this right? Have we made it too hard? like ah like this you know look at these people they're you know they can't walk they
UKRunChat: okay
Sam: And then and then over the next like 48 hours, something. changes. where this like you know this i don't know if it's belief people see the finish line and suddenly they're like no i'm i'm i'm carrying on i'm not stopping you know i'm on there and quite often we see that like the final day is where people move the best and you know they they they're the fastest and um and so yeah seeing everyone finish collecting their They're dragons. they get They each get a ah dragon trophy at the finish line.
Sam: And having that kind of award ceremony where... um And I... And actually, I'm going to pick out another moment and you should ask. because i know you're speaking to danny in in a second um and this is kind of i guess a reflection of
UKRunChat: Yes.
Sam: the uniqueness of this event. um There was an awards ceremony and there was a few of us saying a few words and and Danny... Isabel and Danny came up to collect their trophies. And Danny came up and he had a book under his under his right arm.
Sam: and it was was going on there, and um he read out a poem. Um, ah it kind of One was the the the real version and then one was his own version of the week. um And it was so beautiful and so poignant and literally had, you know.
Sam: The whole audience were kind of... you know, completely raptures. um completely still and quite emotional. and I don't think there are many events.
Sam: out there where that would happen or could happen. um from a kind of the the type of person that's kind of do that but also the the the the reception it got i think is quite reflective of the kind of community that is built in those kind of events so um Yeah I don't think I'll forget that. um in a hurry um and um you know they're all phenomenal people but i think you know that That was...
Sam: um amazing for danny to have done that and particularly the end of running 380 kilometers so ah quickly.
UKRunChat: Yeah. and for them both to have finished like having because neither of them had done that event before either had they it was first time for both of them.
Sam: No, ah danny Danny had done Cape Wrath.
UKRunChat: Yeah.
Sam: um a few years ago and one won that and i think 2004.
UKRunChat: Which, he yeah. Yeah.
Sam: um so he he had you had stage racing pedigree, but you know it's it's a very different event.
UKRunChat: yeah oh yeah oh what a lovely ending for it all so yeah oh well thank you so much sam for your time it's yeah It's been fascinating hearing about it.
Sam: Pleasure.
UKRunChat: And I think the running community is very happy that Dragon's Back Race is still going ahead. and So all the very best with next year and beyond. Thank you very much.
Sam: Thank you very much. Really appreciate it.
UKRunChat: Yeah. So yeah, thank you.
