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Adult Animation Redux with 'Blue Eyed Samurai' and 'Scavengers Reign'
34 Plays1 year ago
For its second year, Zeitgeist checks in on the state of the animation industry. In the first half, Jordan and Niv talk about 'Blue Eyed Samurai'. They Tackle race and identity (06:30), break down the talents behind the series (11:29), animation style (17:48), and tone (26:40). Then, they touch base on 'Scavengers Reign' on Max (now also Netflix). They investigate the state of the industry (46:56), the show's animation style (51:31), themes & influences (55:24), and how ensemble plays a role (01:05:24).
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Happy June, Zeitgeist fans. This is Jordan. I am talking to you from the future. Niv and I recorded this podcast just about two months ago now, and we are finally getting around to releasing it. We have a ton more stuff coming up in particular. I think this podcast really bodes well with the previous episode we did and the episode we have coming up. So if you haven't already, I would invite you to listen to um our episode on the Oscars after you listen to
Oscars and Streaming Previews
00:00:35
Speaker
this one. And then make sure that you are tuning in very shortly to listen to our next podcast, which is about Mary and George on Stars.
00:00:43
Speaker
Not totally necessary to watch that show if you don't want to, if you don't have stars. And Shogun on Hulu, which is, I highly recommend you do watch that. um You can, there's a really great deal going on right now for an ad-free version of both Hulu and Disney Plus, which is just slightly more than what you would pay for an ad-free version of Hulu. It's a great deal right now. Hashtag no free ads. That said, coming up in the summer, we are also going to be talking about Fallout on Amazon and X-Men 97 on Disney+, all of which are available to stream right now. So feel free to go into that grab bag, start watching stuff and get ready for our analytical conversation that we will be talking about in these upcoming months. Thank you for listening and enjoy this episode of Zeitgeist.
Introducing the Zeitgeist Show
00:01:45
Speaker
Hey there, everyone. Welcome to Zeitgeist, the show where we talk about all the latest movies and TV while we listen to the latest music. Today, we are going back in time a little bit and talking about two shows that came out near the end of the year, Blue Eyed Samurai, and later in this episode, the show Scavengers Rain. These shows can currently be found in their entirety on, respectively, Netflix for Blue Eyed Samurai and for Scavengers Rain, Max, joining me for this conversation is, once again, my fellow co-host,
Niv's Animation Journey
00:02:17
Speaker
Nibel Boz. How you doing today, man? Pretty good, man. Excited to talk about some animation. Yeah. We've got quite an awesome March episode ahead of us, man. So talk to me about your relationship with animation. You and I actually first bonded our friendship over an anime called Fate Stay Night. And from there, we have had some spirited conversations about adult animation over the years. What makes great adult animation in your book?
00:02:41
Speaker
I think this is like our fourth episode talking about animation. It's a pretty big deal to me at least because I grew up on Ghibli films and that sort of anime aesthetic when I grew up in Thailand because Asian storytelling and Asian animation is sort of what I was exposed to having lived in the East. And what it has always attracted me to those types of storytelling is the maturity, right? We talked about this when we did our animating episode, how mature sort of that kind of animation is and how even though it looks childish, the storytelling involved treats children or at least gives children adult material to work with. And I think that's important. And to me, that has always been its draw, right? Treating children with an intelligent maturity and how in animation, it's sort of limitless what you can do, right? We look at Blue Eyed Samurai and Scavenger's Reign. Both those shows could have easily been live action shows with the tone and the maturity and the storytelling. But I think it would have been really, really expensive to make them into actual live action. Whereas with animation, it's a little cheaper. It's still very expensive, but it's a little cheaper in the sense that you can do so much more. You can go a little crazier with the design and sort of what you're trying to tell on a visual spectrum. And I think that's another just massive pro in animation. And I think moving forward, I want more animation to be adult in the West.
00:04:09
Speaker
specifically. I think the West has always been playing catch-up with the East in that kind of medium, and I'm very happy that we are catching up because the best kinds of storytelling in terms of limitless prospects come from animation, I believe. That's true.
Complexity in Animation
00:04:24
Speaker
and There is a sense you were talking about children's animation feeling adult, but then there's also the difference between something that I think is for children, something with a child protagonist, for example, something that feels very much built for children and something that's family friendly, something that can have children. there, but is ultimately equally for adults and children. And something like the Barbie movie, I think, is a little child friendly, but it's family friendly. It predominantly focuses on the family. Princess Bride, one of the best movies ever made. That is a family friendly movie. So I think just because there is a PG rating, a lot of people think that it's going to be something very simple. But in reality, you can have just as many complex themes in an animated PG movie as you can in an R rated movie. And I've been saying that forever. I think that there has been this death specifically in the West of the G rated movie. And I think that's a travesty because a animated G rated movie can be intense and thought provoking. without being overly dangerous. Because that's the thing that'll get you in trouble by the MPA is stuff like violence, stuff like threatening situations. Those are the things that boost you up to a PG rating. But you can make things very simple, very basic. I mean, in the East, they have whole
Cultural Perceptions of Animation
00:05:44
Speaker
genres.
00:05:44
Speaker
of slice of life stories, things that feel very true to maybe our daily life, but are things like a man going fishing, somebody cooking food, you know, these are things that are very common in Japan, but are not common in America. And you're right, I think that is a shame. And I do agree that we're playing catch up. And I'm glad that we have the internet sort of the great equalizer to be that force, because in general, I think that things that are most readily available are on Netflix. And that's why people are, I think a little bit more ready for something like that. And we saw last year when we were talking about One Piece, that whether I like that show or not, it's a great revelation to our culture that we were able to accept a show that feels so un-American. Absolutely.
00:06:30
Speaker
Speaking of un-American, Blue Eye Samurai is predominantly based in Japan. It is a story that follows a samurai who has, you won't believe it, blue eyes. And her name is Mizu. Her identity is complex. I would immediately bring our audiences to somebody like the bride from Kill Bill as she lacks a sense of community. Now, I do want to say before we dive in that I am planning to get a little spoilery for both of these. So if you have not watched them, just a quick reminder. Floyd Samurai is on Netflix and on HBO Max, you've got Scavengers Reign. They are both fantastic shows. That's all you need to know for now. Unlike The Bride from Kill Bill, who disavows her community, Mizu is rejected by both her creators and those in Japan. So her creators, meaning her parents, the people who raised her, often she felt sidelined, right? And so you get this sense of deep trauma. And that trauma comes from the exclusion, feeling shame without a home or a family, or even a sense of culture. She is effectively half white. So Blue-Eyed Samurai is set in the 17th century Ito, Japan, and explores themes of race and identity.
00:07:46
Speaker
Niv, as the resident historian of zeitgeist, can you give me some information on 17th century Ito Japan? What do you know about that particular type of history? I know sort of the surface level information, right? Japan at that time was starting to grow through a great change, right? They were starting to um open itself up to the outside world, at least secretly, right? Because the outside world was very much, they started noticing Japan, and what I mean by the outside world, I mean like the Western powers of that time, like England, France, Portugal, and they each saw Japan as like a breeding ground of opportunity. And um that's sort of what this show explores, that beginning of like
00:08:27
Speaker
Oh, we're gonna come in as Western powers and we're gonna, you know, take advantage of various situations, right? Because Mizu's... I love the Kill Bill sort of comparison, because just like in Kill Bill, how the bride, her singular focus is getting revenge on a certain number of people, that's the same thing here. Mizu's doesn't know who her father is. That is the white sort of side of her, her father. And because her white side caused her to have a very difficult upbringing by being mixed race and being heavily discriminated against within her own community, she's hyper focused on getting revenge and on a person she's never met, right? Because she feels like all the pain she has suffered is because of this person. And because there were only five white men in Japan during the time where she could have been born, she decides to find and kill all of them. That is the sort of purpose.
00:09:20
Speaker
The four weasels who found their way into Japan. Well, five weasels that found their way to Japan. Fair enough. But all of this drama surrounds the Shogun and the Shogunate. Yeah, the Shogun and the Shogunate is an interesting thing because like the Shogun is not the Emperor. That's like two different things, right? There was the Emperor of Japan who was very much like followed by a lineage. The Emperor was decided by sort of a heavenly principle or heavenly mandate. So it was based on family. But the Shogunate, was basically the high general of Japan, right? The strongest family in Japan. If I remember correctly, I believe Kyoto in particular was the seat of the shogunate, the seat of power of this grand general who ruled sort of Japan. At one time, I believe you're correct. Yeah, I did not research this beforehand and it's showing, but like from what I remember, that's what a shogunate represents. And it was always up for grabs because all it took was another powerful family to come in and kick the other shogunate out, you know, like, because it was basically the strongest rule. That's how it worked in Japan during that time. Yeah, the interesting thing about Edo Japan in this case is that we already have a sense of race even early on in our history. Of course, many say, and I agree, that race is a social construct, but nonetheless, the Western and the Eastern concepts could not be any more different.
00:10:41
Speaker
there is a strong relationship for each character to their own particular sense of self and their own particular sense of morals. And that really comes through in the show. But particularly early on, Mizu is someone who has those sense of morals and yet She is constantly facing discrimination against people who view her as mixed race and view her as lesser. So as you mentioned, her main goal throughout the series is going to be to take down the five total white men who have penetrated Japan. And she throughout this first season has felt very burdened by her heritage and thus driven to revenge.
00:11:21
Speaker
So her hatred towards her father is ultimately the thing that causes her to come up to blows against Fowler. Before we get into that, I do want to shout out the actors in this show. So since we talked about Fowler, let me give him a shout out first, because he's somebody I, as a theater actor, I'm very interested in and have a lot of time for. Even if as a director, he has had as many misses as he has had hits, and that is Kenneth Branagh. Niv, first time you've seen Kenneth Branagh, when was that? uh like in person or like on film unfilled have you met Kenneth Branagh? I've seen Kenneth Branagh on stage in England when he was doing like a sort of a dual performance with his theater company it was two different plays basically and it was incredible like both coaches were incredible I do not remember the name unfortunately But I saw Kenneth Browna like on film for the first time. When I saw Othello with Lawrence Fishburne and him, he played Yago in that film. We watched it for English class. And that's when I sort of discovered Kenneth Browna and his sort of intense love of Shakespeare and anything Shakespeare.
00:12:29
Speaker
Yeah, that has been his main focus throughout his career. It seems as if his interest in myth has also propelled him into the spotlight with stuff like directing Thor, which was a Marvel movie. He's had quite a distinguished career. Obviously, you mentioned his Shakespeare adaptations. My first experience with Branagh was, I think, much more of a childlike one when he played Gilderoy Lockhart in Harry Potter 2. But that said, his direction and acting talents have been decades long. He has directed, as I mentioned, a Marvel movie, a Cinderella movie. He directed a Frankenstein adaptation starring Robert De Niro, where he once again did star. And most recently, he was a cast member in the movie Oppenheimer. He has worked with Christopher Nolan three times now, and he wrote and directed the Oscar-nominated movie Belfast. Let me quick catch my breath.
00:13:19
Speaker
Ah, so he has had quite the resume and obviously his Shakespeare stuff has been very notable. ah Henry V, I thought, was a lovely film he made. He's done a number of others as well and probably will continue into his later age. And his role as the Irish villain Fowler was very surprising to me because I didn't recognize his voice right off the cuff. Well, because he's being very Irish. I always forget that Cannabrana is like Irish, and only when I watched Blue-Eyed Samurai did I realize how Irish he is, even though like he directed the Irish-centered film Belfast. But I was also pleasantly surprised, I think, that he has like a very unique voice, and I think a character like Fowler, who represents the antagonist of this first season, requires a certain gravitas, right? And I think Cannabrana nails it.
00:14:15
Speaker
be honest to be a Shakespearean actor is to have that gravitas. But it also centers on many prominent Asian actors, obviously being a Asian centric show. It is an American produced show, but I think it will have a lot of popularity across the globe. And two of the voice cast that I recognized right away were Brenda Song and Randall Park. Brenda Song is best known, I think, as London Tifton. Yes. From the Suite Life of Zack and Cody, yeah. And she also is married to Macaulay Culkin. So two child stars who got together. I think their marriage is so cute. Maya Erskine, who is playing the lead Mizu, she is recognized for her comedic talents, but I personally don't know her much. Are you familiar with Maya Erskine? I mean, I know that she started her career or at least was very prominent in her career with Pen 15, the show Pen 15.
00:15:09
Speaker
And right now, she I think this is her year, right? Because she did both this and the Mr. and Mrs. Smith show on Amazon Prime with Donald Glover, which has been getting really good reviews. I don't know. I think she is a really great actress in terms of what I have seen, because I haven't seen much of Pen 15. But I've seen this, and I've seen one episode of Mr. and Mrs. Smith, which he's pretty amazing in. That's great. I hope to watch more of it. I know it just came out. That is ah maybe a future Zeitgeist episode. Who knows? Who knows? Randall Park also is another comedic talent turned dramatic actor here, and he is also known for being in the at Ant-Man and Aquaman movies. I know him as Agent Jim from The Office, but he was most famous for being the dad in Fresh Off the Boat. yeah Yeah, that's what most people know him from. I mean, I know him from that and also the interview because he played King Jum-un, I think. he Yeah. The James Franco Seth Rogen film. When I think about like quintessential Asian actors of our generation, I constantly think about like Randall Park.
00:16:13
Speaker
Because I feel like he's in everything. And he's also a little bit more low-key. I mean, I think of then someone like Ken Jeong, who is a prominent Asian actor and a comedian, but he's really over the top. Well, Randall Park is interesting because he has a really unique voice. Even in this, I feel like he has a very unique sort of speaking voice. So it's very recognizable. So I feel whenever, even though he is low-key, whenever you see him or hear him in something, You know, oh yeah, that's Randall Park. He's got this loper. That's really nice. But then you also have two other supporting actors, smaller parts. Those were the leads. Stephanie shoe. She plays a supporting role. She was previously nominated for in case you've been living under a rock, her Academy Award for Everything Everywhere All At Once, which was then awarded to her co-star, Jamie Lee Curtis, George Takai, who I know as a social media influencer, but who most know as Sulu from the original Star Trek. And he plays Akemi's mentor and father figure. And that is the main cast. There are several other smaller actors. there's also Masi Oka. He was very prominent in the show Heroes a really long time ago. And I wanted to give a shout out for him because he plays the wonderful role of Ringo, who's like Mizu's sidekick. Do you like Heroes? I do. I thought the first season in particular of Heroes was one of the best sort of first seasons I'd ever seen in my life because every episode made me want to go on to the next episode. It was the most thrilling sort of season I'd ever seen on television. And I was like, wow, this is so amazing. But then it nosedived right after the first season into mediocrity, I feel.
00:17:48
Speaker
So talk to me then about the animation style. So we've talked about the talents, which are immense. And I feel like the emotional through line of the show is at least partially influenced by the obscenely talented voice cast. But the other half of it is the actual facial expressions that these characters have and the specific movements that these characters make. Niv, before we get into sort of the research, I just wanted to hear your first thoughts on what you thought about the animation style, which is a little unusual. Well, it's a little unusual, but not for Netflix, right? Because there was a show that was released on Netflix not too long ago based on the League of Legends property from that famous video game made by Riot Games.
00:18:32
Speaker
called Arcane. And when it was released, it also had like ah this unique almost cell shaded animation style 3D and stuff like that. And it was also very expressive. It had like this uncanny valley look to it a little bit because again, it was stylized. But I found that it was a triumph. It was animation that was made by a French company named Fortiche that worked with um Netflix. And I feel like Blue Spirit, the company that did this show along with other production companies, I feel like they took inspiration from that to sort of make this show because I think they saw Arcane and they were like, OK, this is a show that represents heavy, mature themes and storytelling. And the best way to capture that is by having really expressive, really subtle sort of animation and to capture sort of that subtlety of emotion present in all these characters. And I think they just went with it. I feel like Arkane jump started this movement in Netflix to create more mature sort of standalone stories. And in many ways, just feels like a spiritual successor in some way or a continuation of that. Sure. And especially on account of it being a different take on the 3D as 2D aspect, because you have a show or movie like the Spider-Man saga. There's a lot of stuff going on. Which is also similar. Yeah, the Spider-Man, what's it called? Across the Multiverse or whatever. That one in particular is also very similar in style. And Puss in Boots, The Last Wish. But creator Michael Green actually notes in the behind the scenes that he was really happy with Blue Spirit's animation, obviously with a show that is this
00:20:15
Speaker
scaled, you do have multiple animation studios, and I could really tell that there was a bit of a quality difference in some faces, especially background actors in specific shots. You saw that the quality of animation could be a little lower, but as time went on, especially near the finale, I noticed that Blue Spirit seemed to be predominantly the focal animation studio that did most of the shots. Initially, I would say the animation style didn't sit totally right with me. I'll be honest, I did think it felt a little cold and digital and I had to sit with it for a while in order for me to really get in. And I think that's ah the case generally with Blue Eye Samurai. People talk about this all the time with TV, that they have to really sit with the stuff and kind of get to know it. And I felt that was definitely the case here. where the first two episodes, I was intrigued, but I was a little put off by some of the choices they made. And I think that is largely because when you have a story that is this foreign to American audiences, there is a little bit of setup that has to be done. And I certainly was doing that labor as an American to do that. And I think that's partially why. So I would be interested to rewatch it to see if I still had those hang ups or if they've mellowed with time. Well, it's also interesting because I agree with you that in the beginning it's hard to get into it because it's trying to tell what feels like two stories at once. The micro story with Mizu and the macro story with the shogunate. But it does it at sort of a snail's pace in those first couple of episodes.
00:21:45
Speaker
So you're just getting to know the world and sort of the tone and aesthetic of the world because so much of it remains a mystery. It's like you are learning about these characters, which there are many of, and because the focus is split not evenly, but, you know, close to evenly between them. It's hard to get a sense of who they are as actual people by the end of the first episode. And it takes time. It takes like a little bit of emotional investment in order for you to reap the actual benefits of the this show. But the benefits are massive. Yeah, and I think the characterization in Blue Eye Samurai, the actual execution can be a little broad for my taste. And that partially is why those early episodes maybe faltered a little bit, because when the broadness is also paired with these visuals and with time and being able to really sit with these characters, I think I've found a lot more. emotional connection with people like Mizu, with many of the other characters in the show. And when I was starting out, that emotional connection was simply not there. Yeah. And it's again, because it focuses on style and composition. It's trying to mimic almost like an Akira Kurosawa film in a lot of ways.
00:22:53
Speaker
Absolutely. Speaking of which, the fight scenes likely used with motion capture often stood out, I would say, for the realism. It actually was a priority for director Jane Woon to work closely with the fight choreographer early on, even before previs, to make sure that the physical sets were effective, were the most ergonomic possible, where the fight scenes really felt grounded and real. And I saw that in the final product, it really did seem like we were watching a live action show during those fight scenes, because it is rare, even in quote unquote, live action, which predominantly uses CG to accomplish these methods, it feels weightless. And you really want that weight when it comes to action, because then you feel the impact
00:23:40
Speaker
And I see it very rarely that that is the case in blue eye samurai 3000%. I think this is maybe my favorite action piece of the past few years. It is leagues above most Marvel in terms of actual combat, I would say. Absolutely. But again, it's because it's, and we had this conversation sort of with Chainsaw Man and even Demon Slayer, right? When you shoot those fight scenes, it's all about composition and how animation in particular has an advantage of like shooting it truly frame by frame of drawing by drawing. So there is sort of like a very strong stylistic take in those fight scenes being choreographed in animation because it's far more controlled versus something that's live action. Right. A side note is that I did intentionally try to program this so that we were exactly a year away from our previous conversation about Demon Slayer and Chainsaw Man because that really feels nice that we have a once a year talk and check in on adult animation specifically because you and I as personalities really care about this stuff. Of course.
00:24:47
Speaker
And I think even before that we did what primal and Harley Quinn. That's true. But that was even less of a time. That was just early in the podcast days. I think that was during the summer. But regardless, you mentioned Kurosawa Kurosawa. It was absolutely a vocal influence by the creatives in their behind the scenes Netflix. special. They drew influence as well from Zatochi, I believe is the pronunciation of these films. They were a long series of films beginning around the 1960s. I would describe them sort of in the same realm as like a Bond movie in the way that they were produced yearly. They were often similar actors. I think it was the same actor who played it and they were samurai films.
00:25:30
Speaker
So they were the kind of films that I think a lot of people grew up as the seminal samurai movie. And they were, of course, from Japan and really chronicled these adventure stories. So, you know, name your adventurer. Maybe James Bond isn't the most apt person. I also am not familiar with these programs. So feel free to call me out in the mentions or comments if I am off base there. I do intend to watch the movies hereafter. The character designs are influenced by Bunraku puppeteering. They mentioned that as an influence as well. And the settings, the actual matte paintings that you see, well, not literally matte paintings, but sort of that look is an attempt to mimic the 20th century artist Hiroshi Yoshida. And so all of these influences create this really specific tone of Japanese culture. And Jane Wu had a keen sense
00:26:23
Speaker
of how movement should be choreographed in this show and made an intentional choice to train the animators in that movement so that they could have a sense of what it's actually like to move like a geisha, to wield a real sword. And it's interesting that you mentioned Bunraku because I think one of the best episodes in this show is episode five, where there is a Bunraku play happening on stage in the entire episode. And it's sort of mimicking the actual story that Mizu is going through, specifically in a flashback she has. And I thought that was, again, stylistically brilliant, something you would do in a live action show versus a traditional animation show.
00:27:06
Speaker
Because there's a lot of forethought into sort of structuring these types of stories and these types of episodes. There's a lot of forethought and sort of not just a choreography, but also just the intentionality of the themes of what you're trying to show with the visuals. Yes, absolutely. And I agree that episode is really harrowing and really effective in terms of tone. I will say also, though, on the other side of it, that I thought the way that that episode ended, which I'll be generic about for the sake of podcasting, was, I think, a little overboard. And they went, I think, a couple steps too far. Now, in the end, I think it worked out. I think that the The creators probably understood what they were doing, but just to my taste, I don't think going so violent when it comes to a backstory and really going that dark was necessary to achieve the point. Well, but I think it goes with the rest of the tone, right? Because this is inherently a very violent and very mature show. ah Because I think, again, it's drawing from classic Japanese tales.
00:28:09
Speaker
as well. like There is a very strong sense of violence in those classic Japanese tales, at least from what I remember seeing and reading about, but it is a little fascinating that they went that dark as well. i was It felt like shock as opposed to something that was earned. I will give you that. Yeah, and I really don't respond to shock. That's why I haven't been on record for many horror movies, because I find that to be a little distasteful. To me, I think a great horror movie is a thing that relies on soul and sort of pure fear as opposed
00:28:42
Speaker
to something like gross out. Now, that to me is just a personal taste. I know a lot of people will disagree with me on that, but I know that there have been people I've spoken to about Blue Eye Samurai who agree that occasionally they like to kind of bump up the melodrama a little bit. Just a bit, yeah. Specifically, talking about the theme of revenge in opposition to justice, that's something that is prominent throughout the show. Now, of course, Mizu's attempt to eliminate and dispose of these five white devils is the prominent force I've already mentioned. However, this particular program is focused on one, Fowler, and Fowler is someone who is distinctly non-just, and I think that's what's kind of interesting about him. So, in Blue-Eyed Samurai, you have this really elusive sense of justice, particularly at the end where she comes to blows with Fowler, because Fowler is able to express effectively
00:29:41
Speaker
all of the contradictions underneath Mizu's pursuit of vengeance. And ultimately, you get a really big set piece, this really huge act of destruction that Mizu becomes a part of. Now, these are events that are actually detailed in the episode descriptions. So if you're listening to our episode and you're looking for a light amount of spoilers, this is a good podcast for you. But additionally, please don't read the title of the final episode because that will spoil your enjoyment, maybe just slightly. well But that's interesting that you sort of refer to that episode, which is the finale, right? Whereas I feel like destruction is a big theme with the character of Mizu. Everywhere she goes, I think she leaves a very destructive path, right? She's constantly compared to a demon, which is something that she views as a very insulting thing.
00:30:31
Speaker
And we as the audience like empathize with her because we're like, okay, the only thing that makes her a demon is her blue eyes, which doesn't necessarily make her a demon, right? It makes her quote-unquote deformed, and she wears these sunglasses throughout the show. As the show goes on and that destruction follows her everywhere, you start seeing that her thirst for revenge does make her almost demonic, does make her monstrous. I mean, there was an entire episode where she finds Fowler and she attacks his base, right? And she leaves a massive like wake of destruction in her path. And I think what's fascinating about this show as well, which we haven't really talked about. And I don't know if you've noticed it as you watched it, but many parts of it almost feel like a video game because it almost feels like she's progression progressing in a video game sort of state. And no more was that true than an episode six, the episode that I'm referring to. She is slowly taking out the guards, she's slowly going from pillar to pillar, and it's even shot like in a way that made it feel like a video game cutscene. And in that way, that took me out of it. That was actually one of the few things that took me out of it when I was like, wow.
00:31:40
Speaker
The way it's being composed as as a visual medium doesn't quite feel like a film or a TV show, but in fact feels so mechanical and so like point A to point B that it feels almost like a video game. Like I'm watching a video game cutscene. I have to be honest, I disagree. I personally don't play a lot of video games. So I just don't have that frame of reference, but that was absolutely not something that hit my brain at all. It hit my brain, especially in that episode, because the base was broken up in literal levels and each one ended in a quote unquote boss fight or encounter. So I think it just, especially that I noticed like hints of it in other episodes, but in this particular episode, it it was basically screaming at me. Right. But the inherent drama that comes with the level in a video game is inherent drama that appears in story. It's just that the way it was executed is somewhat similar. But what I love about it and what I think makes it interesting is truly how grounded it is. yeah Now, perhaps the violence in video games feels similarly grounded because you're actually there, and a lot of violence in movies can feel less than grounded, as I've mentioned. But what I loved about episode six is parts of it, particularly the ending shot, gave me chills. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
00:32:59
Speaker
The enemies feel larger than life. They fight in really novel ways. They have their own types of fighting styles, which is why I think it feels very cinematic. It feels almost like a live action show in the way that you really feel the impact and the battles like real scenes have plot beats where the characters are either at an advantage or a disadvantage ah depending. So I would say not only do I think that level six or I should say Freudian slip that episode six isn't video game like to me and distinctly cinematic but I think it is on the same level as something like Barry like the fight scene episode from Barry in I think it was season two
00:33:44
Speaker
To me, same level, same kind of thing. And in Barry, the acts feel very real, and they feel very vital, and they really feel scary at times. And this, I think, is similar. I was generally concerned for Mizu multiple times through this show, you know, and knowing that Mizu is such a A tier fighter, you always know that she's going to be able to make it through. with the exception of maybe her fights with Fowler, which again makes it more grounded, more interesting, more drama-laden. I have to push back just a little. I think there is a nice middle ground here. Because video games, especially AAA video games, are inherently very cinematic. That's what makes them AAA games. The feeling that you're in control of the movie, so to speak.
00:34:30
Speaker
And I feel because we are so in tune with Mizu, I think we are almost, we see the world through her eyes. And that cinematic nature of it, and sort of that level design, quote unquote level design, makes it feel, at least to me, very translatable into the same sensation I get when I play a video game or when I watch a video game cutscene. It's not an insult, but I'm saying you just talked about, like, how we always know that Mizu's gonna make it, because she's the main character, obviously. Except in those fights with Fowler, because, you know, he represents the big bad, the big boss. The same is true in video games. You know how many times, like, the main villain of the story, like, appears in the beginning or the middle, and then handily defeats the protagonist, only for the protagonist to keep coming back?
00:35:13
Speaker
That's more apparent in video games because they're such a long sort of like storytelling medium. Like normal video games take 10 to 40 hours to complete. Whereas in a film, when something like that happens, it happens in moments, not in like long stretches of time. And I think because this is a TV show, it does the middle ground of that, right? It draws from both things, the cinematic nature of film and the cinematic nature apparent in video games as well. You just said AAA games are inherently cinematic. So there is a cinematic quality to a AAA game. There is a cinematic quality, obviously, to cinema. But I think what we're really saying is that they feel very grounded and vital at the end of the day. yeah You're talking about pineapple flavored jelly beans. I'm talking about pineapple flavored jello. But at the end of the day, this stuff tastes like pineapple. yeah And that's the key. We're both getting to the fact that it really has impact. And that's the most important part. So I want to get into some themes here because the show has many. And I also want to talk to you about gender in the context of Mizu and Mizu and Akami, because these two are women, obviously, but one is kind of hidden and one has sort of like a Mulan like approach.
00:36:31
Speaker
After the pilot, one of the big mysteries presented is whether or not Mizu is a man or a woman, right? Because she presents herself as a man throughout most of the show. And in the pilot, we're not sure, right? That's part of the mystery. That's part of the draw. The reason she masquerades as a man is because she's hyper aware of the role of women in her society, that they are disempowered and they have less access to the world than a man does. And when she operates as a man, there is a sort of freedom to it. And I think that in itself is a very interesting dynamic. Right? That she constantly has to feel like not only an outsider to this world, but an outsider in her own like gender and sexuality. Because there are brilliant episodes like specifically episode five where she is in touch with her femininity. That femininity is shown in a very positive way until it's not, of course, right? because it almost feels like that femininity felt feels like a luxury. And that word luxury is very important because it relates to the other character that you just mentioned, Akemi, who is the daughter of a daimo. A daimo is, I would say, not the Shogun, but someone like lower. It's like a colonel or lieutenant, basically like a rich military person from a rich military family that owns a city. Who's like the leader of a smaller city.
00:37:48
Speaker
Is it fair to say that military is sort of a status of class as opposed to landowning in Europe? Yes, because that's ultimately what it was, I believe. Again, don't quote me on this. I just know it from surface level information. But she is a person of high class, a chemi, and she is constantly reminded about how lucky she is, of how simple her life is because of her high status as a woman. But at the end of the day, the opposite is true as well because she constantly feels like she has no control over her destiny because her own father decides to marry her off to someone rich and someone powerful that she doesn't want to marry. And she's essentially treated like livestock in some ways.
00:38:31
Speaker
Right. And so her journey throughout the show is her relationship with her femininity, specifically almost as livestock. She asks herself, how can I use this? And by the end of the show, I think she has a very keen sense of that answer. And that is in large part because of her relationship with Issei and the general world of prostitution, which is a prominent part of Japanese culture. Well, it's weaponized femininity, right? It's the idea that when you live in a hyperbascaline world, how can you as a woman survive in it, right? By weaponizing your femininity, which is why I love those episodes focused on the brothel and on the prostitutes, because they constantly are aware of how the world works. And they're like, well, this is what we got. This is what we need to do to survive and thrive. I think that's the other word here. How can you thrive as a woman in these kinds of situations?
00:39:28
Speaker
thrive in the sense of financially, sure, but thrive also in the sense of having autonomy. yeah And the answer is ultimately that the show gives you don't thrive. You have to make sacrifices no matter which way you go. So the best way to live is to make the least amount of sacrifice and you have to decide that person by person. And I feel like that's a major theme here, sacrifice. Every main character in the show feels like they have to make some kind of sacrifice in order to keep going. But the one thing that they won't sacrifice, or at least the main characters, specifically Tygen and Mizu, is honor. And honor is then taken as a spectrum from colonialism, I would argue, in the sense that Fowler, the antagonist, symbolizes change and dishonor. He is literally the guy who brings a gun to a sword fight. yeah
00:40:22
Speaker
So that is really the struggle that I think Taigen and Mizu have against each other because on one hand, Taigen and Mizu very early on have a major conflict where Taigen wants to harm Mizu in some way. Yeah, and Taigen in particular, he's like a character we haven't really mentioned yet. But he is a character that comes from Mizu's past and she's reintroduced to him in her present story. And basically he starts off as first true enemy. But then, you know, their journeys align and they become sort of frenemies at best. And I think that relationship is really interesting because Taigen in particular is like a character who is a man, who is in a very good position in the beginning of the story. He's very privileged in his position.
00:41:07
Speaker
And he represents what happens when that privilege is taken away, which is so dramatically interesting. Yeah. And what is left, too, because I would argue that Tygen is truly a hero in the show. And despite the fact that he has conflict with the protagonist, he largely respects Mizu or learns to respect Mizu enough to consistently have some kind of beef with her. And I wonder if that may transform their relationship as time goes on. But then you also have R- is it Ringu or Ringu? Ringu. And he is somebody that- or Ringo, like the Beatle. Yeah, Ringo, yeah. Well, and I think of him similar. I truly don't find Ringo to be that much of an interesting character. In my book, I think if there is some fat that Blue-Eyed Samurai could have trimmed, I think it might have been the removal of Ringo. I understand why he's there. I think he is meant to be a comedic character. However, I don't think he's particularly funny. Now, I know that you already have been singing the praises of Ringo. Do you agree? Yeah, I really want to push back. I think Ringo in particular is the heart of this show. This show would not exist without him. He represents the foil to Mizu. Mizu is so driven by revenge. Ringo in particular is driven by love. And in so many ways, Ringo is a unique character because he's also an outsider.
00:42:31
Speaker
He's also an outsider, but rather than despising the world around him like Mizu does, he is able to look at the various terrible things around the world, but look at them in a way that is positive rather than negative. And in that way, he serves as a true foil and a grounding force to Mizu more than any other character in the show. Because another unique part of their relationship in this story is that they have a master and student relationship in the story. at first it's played for less right because he's like oh you are my master and she's like no i am not stop following me and she tries to get rid of him in multiple different ways in multiple different episodes but he always finds a way to come back to her well and it's worth mentioning also that Ringo has no hands yeah and that is a reason why he looks up to Mizu in a world where most people look down to her is because he sees her as somebody who has achieved despite disability and he is in our world considered disabled and yet he still aspires for the same level of greatness.
00:43:38
Speaker
Yeah, and that's a thing. There is a greatness to him because he is so intuitive and so intelligent, even though he appears dim-witted, which is such an interesting thing. I feel like it makes him one of the more human characters of the show because you're right, he doesn't have hands, but he still functions very, very well in the world. Yeah, he's functionally an outsider to the story. And I think that to me is what gives me a little bit of distance from him. Fair enough, I stand by what I said. There would be no show. It would not have the same impact without him as a foil. So as a whole, the show does take its time early on, but I feel it accelerates as time goes on. And its unfolding nature is, I think, ultimately the thing that makes Blue-Eyed Samurai such a success. Well, I
00:44:21
Speaker
did say before that my interest was waning near the third episode, and that's when I ended up moving over to scavengers rain for a bit. The more that I went back, the more I found water at the well ready for me to drink. So that said, as things progress into the finale, you actually get everything tied back together in a really beautiful way, which is something I haven't mentioned yet. The way in which this really broad world around the shogunate all feels very intimate by the end. And they all move back into Edo, right? Edo, yeah. So earlier I said Kyoto, but it's funny because I just remembered that it was Edo because it was called the Edo period. That's where the capital of the Shogun at that time was, because it was the Edo period. But I agree. I think that, as I said, the beginning of the story feels very much like a micro story, right? Because it focuses on the micro stories of each of these characters.
00:45:19
Speaker
There's a lot of these characters. That's why the mystery overtakes the characters in some way, because we're learning about so many characters on different levels. But it accelerates because they all move towards the same spot, which is Edo. That's where they're going. And that's where the story is going. It transitions from the micro to the macro and sort of all the roads lead back to Edo. And there is a massive set piece and climactic showdown that happens with every single one of the characters. And that set piece is a masterful sight to behold. Speaking of the segmentation and episodic nature of these kinds of stories, in a moment we're going to be moving on to Scavenger's Rain, a show that I truly think has a lot of beauty in its pacing and its episodic nature, and it's similarly. feels very adult in many places. So that said, we are gonna take a break and listen to some music and then come back and talk once again about a animated show with a little light sprinkling of spoilers. And that show is Scavengers Rain. Stay tuned.
00:46:25
Speaker
Hi there, listener. I know you are not hearing music right now. That's because we actually do a legal form of music streaming that you can find exclusively on our homepage, which is Mixcloud. So if you are interested in listening to a playlist that I personally curate for every single episode, then I would highly recommend you take a trip to Mixcloud and finish the episode starting exactly here where you left off and listen to that playlist and then dive into the second half. That said, if you choose not to do so, here's the second half right now. And with that, let's talk about Scavenger's Reign. So this is a show that I adored and it is something that the fans really like. It was well received by critics, but I think maybe a little under seen. Blue-eyed Samurai has already been renewed for season two. The future of Scavenger's reign is a little bit more up in the air. So while we're talking about the zeitgeist, what do you feel about this era where things are getting cut? I mean, this really is bad news for animated programs, which, as you mentioned, are not cheap to produce.
00:47:32
Speaker
No, they're not cheap. And also they have a smaller audience depending on the tone, right? Because animation is considered by most to be geared towards children. Adult animation is sort of broken up into two brackets. Is it adult animation in lieu of like Blue White Samurai and Scavenger's Reign where it's like adult storytelling that could fit in and live action? Or is it adult animation, a Harley Quinn family guy, The Simpsons stuff in Rick and Morty, of course, which is far more accepted. Right. Well, and the half hour comedy style of animation has grown over time. I think Rick and Morty hits a nice balance. It has occasionally been a little deeper, a little more interesting, a little bit more intricate as a show.
00:48:16
Speaker
But obviously it's still very much feels like the niche. And I wonder, I mean, obviously it's a good thing that Justin Roiland was taken off of the show due to his past transgressions. It makes sense that a man like that shouldn't have a platform. But at the same time, I wonder if having its creator ripped from it is going to do damage to a show like Rick and Morty. Now, talking about the specific program at hand with Scavenger's Rain, this is a show that has been in production for many years. So it's not a show that has this very assembly-like production style, the way that a lot of the Fox shows do, the way that something like South Park does. This feels very much like a art piece, I would say. Absolutely. And it feels more of an art piece than Blue Eyed Samurai does in some ways. I feel like Blue Eyed Samurai in particular feels like a big budget cinematic experience. Whereas this in some ways feels more artistic and connected to something more like Primal, which we covered, I believe two years ago. We did. Yeah. When it's second season debuted. And I think it's similar in terms of like animation style, both being on Macs.
00:49:30
Speaker
But at the same time, it deals with survival in a different way than Blue-Eyed Sam. I mean, I think there is something to be said that both shows deal with the concept of survival. What does it take to survive in the world that you're in? But I feel like Scavenger's reign definitely makes that more literal. And so did Primal. Primal as well was very much like a show about surviving in your environment. Right, it is pre-Jurassic kinds of survival and here you get a new species arriving to a planet that has an established ecosystem and of course the aliens in this case are the humans and those are the people interacting with this planet and that's the show.
00:50:12
Speaker
It's simply a new environment for human characters. And of course, the human characters crash land from their ship, the Demeter, which is a reference to Dracula. The Demeter is the ship that I suppose probably met a untimely end based on the Demeter is also a god, right? It's also. based on a Greek Roman god, right? And what's interesting about Demeter in particular is that it's the god of harvest. It's the god of agriculture. It's the god of environment. And they literally enter into an incredibly hostile environment.
00:50:47
Speaker
Absolutely. You could argue that this is something like sci-fi horror. I would classify this closer to space opera in the same tone as something like Star Wars, but I would say it is very unlike the American style of science fiction. But also Lost. It's a show that feels like the show Lost. It feels, I think, a lot like the pilot of the show Lost. And I think moving into the second season, I imagine it would feel more like the Lost that most people started to know and love, which is the Lost that took up a good section of the first half of its run. Of course, the second half of its run, we don't need a to talk about.
00:51:27
Speaker
But moving from that, we have the actual background, right? We were talking about the animation style, which I think needs to be heralded. Titmouse, which is a relatively small studio relative to animation, provides this absolutely superb 2D style. And unlike many animation houses, Titmouse predominantly is not interested in outsourcing. Obviously, with Netflix, Netflix does outsource. Netflix has multiple studios operating. It's not just one studio doing all of the payload. There's a lot going on there because there is so much work. There is so much weight that goes into an animated program. So you need to have a lot of tendrils out there. But if you're willing to take the time with something like scavengers rain, that's where I see a lot of pay off. And this really basic comic like style, I think it's instantly captivating.
00:52:19
Speaker
Now, in terms of the format, Scavenger's reign is 12 episodes each 30 minutes long, so it's not a short show, but it does have these pretty bite-sized chunks. The format, I think, is similar to Blue-Eyed Samurai in the way that it takes its time, but I think that it is even more in that vein because it doesn't like to speed itself up. The actual climax of the show, as it continues to build, also feels very in line with the very beginning. So it doesn't have that expediency that I felt when watching Bloitte Samurai. That said, I think the settings and the characters and the everything, every aspect is vibrant and nuanced. And the series features very many ecosystems and memorable moments and memorable character moments. And I think it's that complexity that would make it a really interesting rewatch and something that I can continue to come back to.
00:53:15
Speaker
And I understand that this program may either be on video on a physical release or that that's coming. And I think this is is a great example of something that does reward having it on physical media, because you can really get into it in a way that you would with a limited series. Well, what's also interesting about it when you compare it to Blue-Eyed Samurai, right? One had definitely a higher budget than the other. Blue-Eyed Samurai looks like it was a much higher budget to make than Scavenger's Reign. You can also look at the actors. There's a lot less known actors in Scavenger's Reign. There are some like ones that I can point out that I'm like, oh, I know their work, but they're not as big as the actors in Blue-Eyed Samurai. There's only really one I want to shout out, and that's Aaliyah Shawkat. She was both Levi and Fiona. She plays a dual role. And, of course, Fiona programs the robot Levi, which is what makes it a dual role. But the one big thing about her is that she was on Arrested Development as maybe. Yeah, that's who I knew too. and But that's what I mean. She is the most well-known actress in this program. But again, she doesn't represent like a level of Randall Park or... Not even close. No, or even Stephanie Shue who just appears in like a bit role in Blue Eyed Samurai. I think that might also be a tenant to the reign of HBO that we're currently in because Zazlov is looking to trim off the margins as much as possible. So having a bunch of unknowns do the voice cast actually kind of makes sense. And realistically, having an all star voice cast is Fine, if you are adapting a DC property, you mentioned Harley Quinn, which has some of the best comic actors currently working. A lot of people who've appeared on shows like Curb Your Enthusiasm or other A-tier types of comedies on HBO. I just don't think that Scavenger's Reign necessarily necessitates.
00:55:09
Speaker
that level of stardom. All it needs is a high level of acting talent and ah talented actors are everywhere. We don't know all of the names of these very talented voice actors and I think Scavenger's reign has it. Yeah, and there's something to be said that the unknown is a theme of this story because the characters constantly go into the unknown and we get to learn so much about them by their experiences in the unknown, which is, I guess, a weird little draw to make. But at the same time, I'm glad that they chose relatively unknown actors because it made it feel more grounded and less cinematic. Budget was a big thing. But even though it had a lesser budget, it gave them the ability to have more imagination.
00:55:52
Speaker
Blue-eyed samurai is very much connected to realism. It's connected to an actual period of history with actual dynamics that happen in history. Because this is a science fiction story in Scavenger's reign, they had the ability to do whatever the heck they wanted, right? They designed various different creatures and various different ecosystems and wildly different like ways. and really imaginative and subverting ways. Like every time I saw a new creature or a new plant or a new hazard, I was pleasantly like surprised in their design. But not only that, it had a function, right? Because each monster or each thing presented a puzzle to the characters. OK, how am I going to survive this? Because every day, and I kid you not, every day on this planet is a death trap.
00:56:37
Speaker
And every day the characters had to find like some crazy way to survive, usually by the skin of their teeth. Totally. And it's because they don't know this world, right? Later into the story, we actually meet a human character who has learned to adapt to this world, but it has come to a tremendous, tremendous cost to her personal being. And that's the case across the board. There are a lot of characters that have to do that in some way, shape or form. in order to continually survive. And trying to bend this world into a shape that it's not is, I think, fundamental against the ethos of the story. And you talk about the unknown being such a character force. And I've read, surprisingly to myself, a lot of reviews that compare this to horror. And while I think there are horrifying aspects, I think it's distinctly non-horror.
00:57:27
Speaker
And I think I believe this because it really depends on whether or not you root for the planet as a character and the planet is effectively the antagonist of the story. But at the same time, it is not an antagonistic force in a true sense. I would say that predominantly the human characters are a virus to the planet itself. And you think about what happens when you have a virus in your body? Well, there are like these little blood cells and there are lots of ways in which your body should sheds a virus you know the fat all of the things inside your body create these antibodies that in turn combat it and that is how you survive as a person now when it comes to the world of scavengers rain it's identical but the difference is these viruses are people and these people are constantly being battled by various things and they have to skirt away from them it's not about necessarily defeating any one force it's about just surviving And some of it is awful, but not all of it is like murderous and destructive. Some of it is quite beautiful as well. Not every piece of this planet is dangerous. It's just there is a difference between knowing what is dangerous and what is not dangerous.
00:58:41
Speaker
I think what's really interesting about it is that I thought about this a lot. I was like, imagine an alien race coming to our world and not knowing what was dangerous and what wasn't. We live in a world where we have so much information, where we have lived for so long in terms of history, that we have created solutions to problems that would destroy us almost, or at least pose a very strong danger to us. I mean, modern medicine and all that. that stuff. These characters have none of that. They need to discover everything on the fly. That is the dramatic tension and the dramatic action of most of those episodes, right? And I want to go back to what I said earlier with Blue-White Samurai as well, because they operate in a very, very similar way, structurally speaking.
00:59:24
Speaker
scavenger's reign is a show that focuses on a lot of characters as well and it starts off with a mystery of like how these characters got there what is their relationship to each other and it focuses on the micro level of storytelling at first but you know there is a common goal between them And as the show goes on, it accelerates, right? Because they all have an end goal. They all have to get back to the demeanor, right? They all have that similar goal. They're all very far from each other and they're all surviving on their own, but that is their collective goal. So it goes from the micro to the macro story as well. And that's what I want to give kudos to about these shows.
01:00:00
Speaker
Because even though they are like, you know, stylistic and artistic and they have sort of their own way of going about things in terms of structure, they know how to develop and entice the audience and create a really lasting impact. I feel like both finales, even though they were very different in scale, Blue White Samurai obviously had a much larger scale than Scavengers Reign did in their finales, respective finales. But I feel like both managed to leave the same strong impact. Ultimately, I 100% agree. While I do somewhat disagree, ah just in terms of tone, I think they're wildly different. I think if you look at it from that mechanical level, if you really break it down and atomize it, I certainly can see how there is that similarity. I mean, in terms of them all kind of going back to home base, but I would say it's sort of similar in the same way that you could like say, Mad Max Fury Road has a similar trajectory to these stories, despite the fact that if you looked at each one individually, they are wildly different approaches. So I do want to touch back on the concept of ecology and the planet a little bit because
01:01:09
Speaker
What I really love about it is that it speaks to sort of my sensibilities and sort of my political whatever and talking about. So the planet is called Vesta just for the knowledge of the audience, because even if you've seen scavengers rain, you may have missed some of these little moments because a lot of these things aren't necessarily said. There is a a character that comes to a front with a lot of these humans named Hollow, and I don't believe Hollow's name is ever said. No, I call him Salamander because he looks like a salamander. And that's fair. But the way in which the planet's approach to nature is indifferent to human desires is something that does feel so true to our existence and something that we constantly forget about. in our day and age because we look at stuff like global warming and we look at stuff like, I mean, there are people who believe that, you know, global warming is fake, right? And they just don't really care about the way in which they interact with the planet, the way in which they meaningfully contribute to our ecosystem. And of course, that's a mistake because we live on a planet. Why wouldn't we acknowledge that as a possible ah line item in our grand total of existence?
01:02:21
Speaker
So, the planet in Scavenger's Rain plays this crucial, critical role, and observing the daily life of the planet then becomes the episodic joy because you get these harrowing situations that each character gets into, and they, of course, have to find their way out of it. Which character plot were you most interested in? ne We have the A plot with Ozzy. There's the B plot with Sam and Ursula, the commander and his subordinate, respectively. And then there is the more dreamlike plot. And that's going to be with Kamen. Kamen, who looks a little bit like me. Yeah, he really does. That's interesting that you said that Ozzy's storyline was the A plot. I actually saw Sam and Ursula as the A plot. Just because I think we were introduced to them First, technically, as the pilot was shown. That was a while ago, but all three plots, A, B, and C, they're in duos.
01:03:19
Speaker
Yeah. So with Cayman, he and hollow, the salamander, salamander, the alien salamander. And with Ozzy, it's with her robot companion Levi. And of course, Sam and Ursula. So it's always in those duos. And those duos have like very interesting dynamics between them. They're all wildly different from each other. They both have like a sense of one is the alpha and one is the beta in some ways. And it's really interesting because the beta often rises up in really interesting and subverting ways. And that's why I really love sort of those character moments. Because even though those characters are stuck in those relationships throughout most of the journey of this show, they constantly change and evolve because they are affected and challenged in different ways. And to me, that's masterful, right? Because you have essentially six characters.
01:04:13
Speaker
And you're giving them the same level of evolution and and care. Also, if you want to talk about another parallel, later on we were introduced to Chris and Barry and arguably Barry is the beta and Barry too learns to get a sense of self-reliance and understands throughout his journey on Vesta what he believes in and what he believes in independent of his two companions, Terrence and Chris. I actually the reason why I thought Ozzy was effectively the protagonist and here's kind of a very complex situation because you're king of there is only one protagonist. one I really think it's difficult to determine in this show, but I connected most with Ozzy and ah the reason why I labeled her as the The main protagonist is in fact because I think she drives the major conflict not just for this season but throughout multiple seasons because you have characters that appear later that I would imagine probably will appear in numbers to try to be generic here later in the show. Characters similar to Chris.
01:05:24
Speaker
Yeah, and I think what's interesting, I've once broken it down of how you define a protagonist. And I believe I did it in in three ways. It was a while ago. I was teaching a class in Northwestern and I presented it to them. But the three ways I presented it as were scope, change, and focus. So what I mean by scope is that how much does the story allow for the character to serve as our eyes? That represents the scope of like how much of the world or how much of the pain of this world do we see and how much are they challenged? The focus is just generally how much the story focuses on one character because it's all in percentages, right? Like how much does a story focus on a character defines? Right. And the focal point means that you get the most depth and you get all those elements. Yeah, and of course the last one, which is the most important, is change slash growth. How much does a character change and how much does a character grow? The one that grows the most alongside with those other two facets usually define, in my opinion, who the protagonist is. and I think that Wala Ozzy does change a lot and there is a lot of focus on her. I think the character that changes the most is actually Ursula because she is what a character that is very much in tune with who he is. And sort of her relationship with him is a mentor sort of mentee relationship. In so many ways that relationship is the healthiest one in the show. but It's also the most tragic because eventually she has to outgrow him because of the situation. She has to step up instead of him.
01:06:55
Speaker
Right. And Sam and Ursula, at least initially, Sam is very much in tune with himself and Ursula is in tune with the planet. And that conflict is really palatable, I think more so than the other characters conflict, because Sam isn't interested in the planet. And similarly, Ursula isn't really interested in survival in the same way. But I also think that them as opposites make the best pair congruently because you have two people who understand each other. They understand each other's viewpoints, but they also can interact in a meaningful way with the planet, which also makes sense why they tend to get throughout the story the most harrowing challenges. Yeah, and there's something to be said that Ursula thematically fits more as a protagonist because her job on the ship was to tend to the plants, to tend to the environment. And now she is an incredibly hostile environment and she's learning faster than most of the other characters because of her expertise. But that requires her to step up far more than all the other characters. And to me, she just edges out Ozzy as a protagonist because she just has more to do. Well, and not to get too explicit about it, but I would argue in terms of scope of change that Sam has maybe even a greater scope. Yet, I think that when it comes to the other two, maybe he's lacking a little bit in terms of what we actually know about him specifically. Well, the change that he has, even though it's massive, has a purpose. It affects Ursula. And there is something to be said as well that Ursula, while being an incredibly passive character, has to rise up into a very intentional character because of Sam's impact on her.
01:08:36
Speaker
But I really want to touch on this as well. The reason why Ozzy feels like a protagonist or very much is close to being a protagonist is because she has the most action. She's the most action forward character in the show. Like the entire time we see her on the move and constantly doing something, she is like the alpha of her story. And so it feels like she pushes so much of the forward momentum of the show because she is so intentional with everything she does. But that feels like a detour-agonist role, not a protagonist role, because her actions feed into the other characters, because she doesn't truly change. She's still a very action-oriented person, whereas Ursula is learning to be an action-oriented person.
01:09:17
Speaker
Well, and if I were to be forced to look at this as a protagonist binary conception, I would probably go a little more woo wo and say that Vesta itself is the main character of the show. Sure. Just like Baltimore is the main character of the wire. I mean, yeah. Yeah. But talk about genre, right? So I think what interests me about this show is that it so closely mirrors genre and specific micro genres that I have grown to learn and love as time has gone on, specifically the work of Moibis. I believe his name is pronounced. He's a French.
01:09:51
Speaker
artist. I mentioned that this is sort of comic style. It really does feel in line with the vibrant colors and the pastels of that French style. A lot of people would be familiar with something like Fantastic Planet, which is in turn very unique and very fantasy oriented. And so it has more fantasy elements on a day to day basis than it does science fiction. Now, obviously it is set in the future and it does have a little bit of that. but as opposed to something like raised by wolves, which is also on max raised by wolves feels very hard line sci fi. It also has that grim dark terrain that you would be used to with a live action genre program in the same line as something like Game of Thrones.
01:10:37
Speaker
Whereas this show has that wide-eyed, innocent approach, even while it is a little bit violent and definitely harrowing and, if you believe to be the case, horror in its philosophy. But I would also point to something like Annihilation or 2001 A Space Odyssey, specifically with the transformation of a character like Levi. Yeah, but at the same time, I can see why critics are calling it like a horror show. There is a lot of horrible things that happen on this show, and there is a survival aspect of it. It's survival horror. But I think that, you know, there is something to be said that it's also just a genre of itself of being planet horror. You know, I've seen, weirdly enough, an anime when I was younger called Geo Osei, and it operated in the same way. Two kids go on a very hostile alien planet.
01:11:31
Speaker
and they have to survive. If you're interested, that manga slash anime was written by Natsumi Itsuki, and it's readily available on Crunchyroll. It's one of the more underrated animes I've seen. But when I saw this show, I was reminded of that. This is not a new thing. It's just an understated genre, I feel. Because it's so understated, we have to sort of combine it with other genres or larger genres in order to make sense of it. At its very core, it's just a science fiction story. Yeah, and I have to imagine that especially in the West, we need something seminal in order to branch out and see all of that. So we had annihilation that has some aspects and I think scavengers reign too. As time goes on, we'll be seen in that seminal way because it is so of its own and so neatly sorted in, as you said, that micro genre. As we close things off, I also want to shout out the fact that this doesn't happen every year, that we will see something like Harley Quinn, which I've kept up with. I think it's still a fantastic show, but we haven't seen Primal come back.
01:12:40
Speaker
We are in a situation here in LA where it's been slow for things to start moving again in terms of new work, especially in terms of animated work. And I know that predominantly what studios are going to be interested in is intellectual property and stuff that isn't very risky. But then there's the other side to that, too. So, do you see an advantage to something as conceptual as Scavenger's Reign being on HBO Max, or just Max, as they call it now, for somebody like David Zaslav looking at the bottom line? If you were talking to a producer and you had to pitch a show similar, how would you justify it?
01:13:20
Speaker
Because I know for me, when it comes to something so risky, you have to continue to innovate in order to be able to move the line, right? When you have something like everything everywhere all at once, that's going to be on a small budget, but at the same time, it feels really big. Max, or at least Warner Brothers, always had sort of a platform to do that kind of stuff, especially with animation. It was called Adult Swim, you know? Rick and Morty first appeared on Adult Swim, like a lot of the Eastern animes that first made their big splash in the West appeared on Adult Swim, and specifically the Toonami section of Adult Swim.
01:13:57
Speaker
And I feel like Scavenger's reign, like if it was pre-Max, it would also be on Adult Swim. I think it's always been part of the Warner Brothers Max ecosystem. So there's always a space for it. Just like, for example, HBO as a brand is like they're known for really unique, but dark toned storytelling. I think Max has always been drawn to it because it has sort of that grim tone in most of the stories it decides to produce and tell. So it's that strange thing where that becomes less frequent because Zazlov and the powers that be are like okay what is more commercial, not what is more artistic. I think that's the big fork in the road for them right now because they're trying to decide for themselves. All right, we are undergoing a great change in our industry. In order to keep up, we have to adapt. We have to create change. And in order to change, you need to sacrifice some things, right? That's just the nature of the game. Again, theme of sacrifice.
01:14:55
Speaker
But all I can say is that, you know, these are ideals and sort of tenants that this company has followed for a very long time. The grim dark, the artistic sort of storytelling. Again, the fact that we compared primal and scavengers reign is by no accident. Again, it's just something that fits that specific platform. and it will continue to be as such. But I think what is truly tragic about this is that question of like, are we going to get a season two of Scavenger's reign? Probably not. There might be a chance, but I wouldn't think so, because I think that what's attracting sort of that ecosystem is that constantly new thing. And that is the transition we're going through, because I think that HBO is far more interested in cutting things out versus continuing things as they are. Just look at the whole like debacle with Batgirl or that Acme. Coyote versus Acme. Yeah. You know what I mean? And those were pre-established properties that got cut. I could only imagine it's much worse for new properties. Yeah. But as you said, over time, there will be stuff that sneaks through. There will be innovation going on. And I have seen throughout these years that some of this innovation more and more is starting to get more and more attention and is being rewarded more and more. And so I expect and a hope that that will be going on continually, whether it's on max or whether it's on another service over the next couple of years. And when that happens, I say when not if we're going to be covering it right here on zeitgeist and we will be diving right in.
01:16:28
Speaker
If you guys have listened to the end of the episode, I really appreciate it. I'm gonna just ask you one more favor before we let you go today. Tell a couple of friends about our show. If you've really been enjoying it, we really do need listeners. We don't just talk on mics because we like to hear ourselves talk. That's only one small part of the reason why we do this podcast. So I implore you, just let your friends know, just talk to people, you know, stay curious, have others stay curious, look for new properties. Don't just go see the same couple of things again and again, because there is so much interesting out there. And I have tried to through the lens of pulp pulp culture and this website that we have been curating, to showcase and analyze and platform stuff that is new and interesting and vibrant and not just the same old 10 IP. So, if you're interested, keep on listening, keep on supporting our show. I have been your co-host, Jordan Conrad. And I am Nievel Boz. And we are signing off. Thank you so much for listening and we will see you again in just a few weeks time. Take care, keep conscious, stay safe out there.