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The 2025 Zeitgeist Mulligan
10 Plays16 days ago
For the very first Zeitgeist Mulligan, Jordan and Niv revisit some shows from previous years' podcasts and discuss how they've evolved. They begin as Niv recaps The Last of Us (1:32), then The Boys (5:44), then Jordan explains how Only Murders in the Building (9:34) has begun to stretch its premise. Before a musical interlude, they discuss House of the Dragon (16:11). After that, they talk about Hacks (22:02) Season 4, and that same season of The Bear (31:33), and how much both have evolved since their respective Zeitgeist episodes.
Special Thanks to Producer Jahlyn Reyes-McKinley and for music, The Powerknobs.
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Transcript
Introducing Zeitgeist Mulligan
00:00:24
Speaker
Hey everyone, this is Zeitgeist, the show where we talk about all the latest TV and movies while we listen to the latest music. Today we have a little bit of a different setup going on. We're trying something a little different. This is what we are now calling the possibly annual, 2025 in this case, Zeitgeist Mulligan.
00:00:44
Speaker
What this does is it allows for us to be able to talk about stuff we've talked about previously, but be able to catch up with a little bit
Evolution of TV Shows: 'The Bear' & 'Hacks'
00:00:52
Speaker
of it. Some of these shows we've talked about seasons and seasons and seasons ago.
00:00:56
Speaker
And as we're going to be talking about in the later half, one of those seasons has adapted and changed a lot. So we'll be talking about The Bear later on. We're going to be talking about Hacks. Starting off, we're going to be talking about some other shows that we've really enjoyed, maybe some to a lesser extent, maybe some to more extent as time has moved on.
00:01:18
Speaker
And to do that is my co-host. I'm Jordan Conrad, and you are... Eve Elbaas. Bye, guys. What's up, brother? I'm good, man. How doing? I'm all right. all right. I'm ready to get this mulligan on the road.
00:01:31
Speaker
Absolutely. As the year's coming to a close here, it's good to be able to talk about the things that we've enjoyed, if at all. Would any of these shows that have come back, I guess the major one that's been on the air this year would be The Last of Us. So let's
Controversy Around 'The Last of Us' Season 2
00:01:47
Speaker
start with that. Is that going to end up on your ranking for the end of the year? don't know. I feel...
00:01:52
Speaker
Last of Us is such a weird show to to talk about because it's always the point of conversation, not just as a show, but also the video game. I feel like in so many ways, the video game has mirrored the TV show for better and for worse in terms of like reception to it, because the first season was universally beloved. So it was the first game. But then the second season,
00:02:17
Speaker
game and the second season have been very, very divisive because sort of of what it's been adapting. and because, again, the second video game was also part of a certain zeitgeist and it blew up and a lot of people had very polarizing sort of responses to it, especially because it was a ah story very much fueled by revenge.
00:02:42
Speaker
And You know, the second season does the same thing. it is a story that is very much fueled by a certain kind of very visceral revenge, but it's only half the story, you know, because they're adapting the second video game, I believe, in three seasons, which is a lot, you know. Yeah, that's so much more material. yeah And there's a lot of new actors there too. It's interesting. So you mentioned on our podcast, which was maybe a year, two years ago when we covered the last of a season one, that you were actually kind of anticipatory towards what could possibly be a backlash because of the controversial nature of
Caitlin Dever's Role and Audience Reactions
00:03:22
Speaker
the second video game. now the controversial character that you spoke of at the time i think we and now as a society do kind of widely know who that is even if we don't know necessarily the intricacies of the plot i happen to know probably a little more than i should but that being said uh there's caitlin deaver yeah who plays a controversial character do you feel like she did a good job relative to that controversy I mean, what's interesting is I've seen so many sort of responses to her as an actress of being like, oh, she should have been Ellie, played by Bella Ramsey. Meaning like it feels like they look at Caitlin Dever and people are like, oh, she should have starred in this show because she looks traditionally more like
00:04:07
Speaker
Ellie in the video game. So it's it's strange because they're not really having a negative reaction towards her, at least not from what I've seen. they're more having a negative reaction towards Bella Ramsey and their portrayal of Ellie because they're seeing her sort of act in a way that doesn't really reach the depth of the video game version of Ellie. But it also makes sense, you know, like it's only portraying half the
Final Season of 'The Boys' and Its Spinoffs
00:04:36
Speaker
video game so far and a lot of the catharsis and journey hasn't really happened yet. in you know that second season of the show in terms of Ellie's journey as a whole.
00:04:46
Speaker
But at the same time, I get what they're talking about because as an adaptation, it's really hard to get into the nitty-gritty details that a video game does because you know you live with that character for so long. I don't think any season of television can replicate a 60-hour video game where you're literally with the character for at least 30 hours of that game because in the other 30 hours, you're with Abby, you're with Caitlin Devers sort of character. And this is not a spoiler because the third season literally is set up that way. Like in the final bits of that second season, like it switches perspective.
00:05:25
Speaker
so And also now the main reason that I cut out of the show was actually kind of totally different. And it also speaks to a lot of what my diet of television has been over these last couple of years and what shows I've stuck around on, which are the shows that are a little bit more kind of light and uppity. Light and uppity. You've dealt with more of the kind of darker shows, like The Boys, which is about to end. Yeah, it is about to end, and it's had its spinoff. It's going to have another spinoff, I think. It's... it's
00:05:56
Speaker
I don't even know. I think it's called Vought Rising, something like that. And details sort of like ja Jensen's, what's his name? the Yes, Jensen Ackles from Supernatural. It deals with his like character, his Captain America sort of S character and what he's doing.
00:06:11
Speaker
But so it's building a whole universe. But the main core story is about to end. It just sort of wrapped filming, I believe, just like a couple weeks ago. And, you know, we watched The Boys and it's interesting because it sort of peaked in season three and then it sort of really dipped off with season four. So it's really interesting as we're going into this final season, how it's going to end. Because obviously it has veered off from the comic book and and how it ends. I think it's a very different take.
00:06:42
Speaker
So I anticipate that I will be entertained. That's what the boys is very good at, entertaining you. ah But in terms of like, is it going to stick the landing or not?
00:06:52
Speaker
I don't know. i think it is kind of like a scary thing because traditionally shows have a very hard time sticking with their landing in terms of their final season. We'll see. So both of those shows so far we've talked about are shows that more or less hit their stride early on and when we've covered them was essentially their peak, which is great. I'm glad that we're able to cover the shows when we can enjoy them at the highest.
00:07:21
Speaker
Especially with the boys, which was something that I do think I enjoyed as a TV show because you're right. It was very like addictive. It was very TV because you wanted to click next episode, next episode, next episode. was very well paced. It was very well written.
00:07:36
Speaker
But it was also very... It's hard to explain because it's gritty but not in like a dark... kind of way because i would say The Last of Us is gritty ah some other shows we might talk about but The Boys is just I think a little bit more angsty yeah because it's counterculture but also what is counterculture in a world where the Snyder version is yeah exactly you know So I, watching the boys, sort of felt a little bit like watching Man of Steel.
00:08:04
Speaker
And so I think just relative to that universe, I was maybe a little bit less interested in continuing on, despite the fact that I do think that Homelander as a character had a lot of merit. So hopefully, yeah, hopefully they, I mean, I always wish the best for these kinds of things, especially because there are a lot of fans clearly still watching the show due to the fact that they're going to keep making... spinoffs and maybe the Jensen Ackles spinoff will ride the line maybe a little better for me. I mean the main kryptonite to it and I feel like if we're talking about retrospectives of these shows I feel like part of the reason why it has fallen off is because it's no longer counterculture it's culture. The boys has become mainstream and so it loses sort of its very basis you know of being something that's more critical and it it tries to be I mean Homelander and Donald Trump have been, for better and for worse, like very much comparable to each other. And that has been intentional. But also the way people respond to Homelander as someone sympathetic has also transferred weirdly to Donald Trump himself. Yeah, you know, the right wing has been pretty good at spinning, recalibrating and kind of celebrating whatever is thrown at it, which is, I guess, not always for the benefit. Talking about how something can go from being a little engine that could into something like unstoppable and like you have all of these celebrities in it. I guess one of the shows I wanted to talk
Impact of LA Setting on Show's Premise
00:09:36
Speaker
about was Only Murders in the Building.
00:09:37
Speaker
So when did we cover that show? Oh my god, season two, because yeah, I stopped watching after season two. That's a show with that I fell off of. That one I've kept watching. Unfortunately, I think you fell off right before the best season. I actually think season three is my favorite still, the Paul Rudd season. And of course, Paul Rudd was teased at the end of season two. He was. He is the victim in season three. I don't think that's too much of a spoiler to say.
00:10:03
Speaker
But the best season, I think, by far, because it pretty much marries that balance where the conceit of the show is in some way kind of fragile.
00:10:14
Speaker
Only murders in the building implies that A, there is a murder and B, that it is in the building. And so you have to also rely on the fact that that conceit is central to the narrative as well. Right.
00:10:27
Speaker
And season four is starting to get a little stale for me because they have this whole section where they move to Los Angeles. Right. And there's also a really drawn out plot point due to the fact that that they have this huge get, which was Meryl Streep. And of course, everybody loves Meryl Streep. So why wouldn't they bring her back if they had a chance to?
00:10:49
Speaker
The only problem is, I don't think they had a lot to do with her. In season three, she was so central to the narrative. And in season four, they flew her out to l LA. And so now we are flying out to l LA. Yeah. There are entire episodes where the building isn't even central. And when we do go back to the building, it doesn't feel quite the same as it did.
00:11:09
Speaker
So I'm really hoping that they start to get a little bit more wise about how they're dealing with these specific neighbors. You know, i think that anybody who's lived in a building like the, I think they call it the Arconia, knows that there are always going to be neighbors that you don't see.
00:11:25
Speaker
And I think that there is a major potential in season five to be able to bring it a little bit more into itself. You know, and I think that that's something that, similar to you talking about how you hope the boys gets better, I think the boys is very good at its best to focus on established characters and deepening inward instead of trying to go outward and becoming more and more splashy and stretching thin. That was going to be my question because the original conceit, you know, obviously was limited to these three characters solving a murder within this building. Right. It was small scale. But as you know, television goes, you know, you get larger and larger and larger and you broaden the scale. And also, again, to me, that's crazy that they moved to L.A. because that is a very huge leap to a different form of scale. Right. And from what I understand, it's like it makes sense to self-correct. when you do that, when you go really, really big, then you go back small the next season. Do you feel like it betrayed the original conceit when it did that, when they moved to L.A.? And do you wish that they would go back to something more like the first two seasons? Here's what I'll say is that I think that they have continued to explore the conceit, and I do think maybe largely to its detriment, but there tends to be an on-off rhythm that they have with the show where they will have a really strong central idea in one season. So season one, I think, was an incredibly strong central idea. And then in season two, they kind of were more in the sandbox phase, trying to figure out what this show could be as a continuation.
00:13:07
Speaker
And then within season two, they kind of built in a concept for season three, which I think was very good and had a clear focus because the murder still did take place in the building. And there were a lot of characters in the building that were large parts of the narrative. But the actual drama was playing out at the theater and in the building. And a lot of the rehearsals took place in the building, but the performance was in the theater. So you got to have it both ways. And I think that that was a great balancing act that they were able to hit in season three. The only problem is you only get that once and then you have to create a whole new idea. So I think season four, they were back in the sandbox phase. Obviously, they started to be tied to certain things that they weren't tied to previously.
00:13:54
Speaker
And that also meant that a lot of the more interesting narrative concepts ended up actually getting mostly dropped because Martin Short's character has a lot of internal interest. There are a lot of things like his son, he's a relationship with his son that more or less was kind of sidelined in season four because he is intertwined with Meryl Streep as a character. They kind of operate within each other's orbit.
00:14:21
Speaker
And so he was tied to Meryl Streep. And so his character ended up getting flattened. And he's one of the central three, right? He's one of the main characters of the show. So losing that was a huge loss, I think. And so we were back in the sandbox phase, more or less.
00:14:36
Speaker
And I think that that's fine. But I also have to recognize that this is television. This is meant to entertain. Like, it's fine that they are playing around, seeing how far the formula can stretch. And that's really where it felt.
00:14:49
Speaker
I felt like they were so trying to stretch it. They were saying, this is a show where we want to do something. And maybe it's going to break the whole engine that the story runs on.
00:15:03
Speaker
And maybe people will respond to that anyway. That seems to be what they were saying. I don't think that that's how it worked out. Now, was there a murder? Yes. Did it take place in the building? Yes, but were any of the suspects in the building? Not very much. You know, some of them were, but they also didn't feel connected to the building. And that's a larger issue for the second half of the season that I'm not going to get into.
00:15:25
Speaker
But the point is, is that I do think that now they have an opportunity that they have done that exploration. And they have world built within the building itself somewhat. And maybe they can find a way to once again really find that marriage. Now, that requires another killer idea.
00:15:44
Speaker
And killer ideas don't come out of nowhere. And they're not easy. And even if you have a good idea, it's not always easy to execute on it as effectively. So we have a great opportunity. We have a really good cast. Season five's cast has been out. I'm sure by the time that this episode comes out, it will be debuted. ah We're recording this ahead of time.
00:16:05
Speaker
So I am really hopeful. And I think that this has a chance to be a great season. Hopefully I'm not eating my words later. And talk about a show that is kind of moving into a third season. Now, this isn't coming out by the time our podcast is coming through, but House of the Dragon. Yeah. How are we feeling about that? Season one was kind of amping up to something. Do we feel like season two paid off? I feel like did, but there's controversy with that too, because the author, George R. R. Martin, has had beef with Ryan Condal, the showrunner of the show, House of the Dragon, because obviously- Doesn't he have a job to do? Isn't he supposed to be finishing the Game of Thrones books? Why is he starting beef online?
00:16:48
Speaker
Because he would rather sort of develop his TV shows because he himself is doing like the whole boys situation where he's expanding his own cinematic universe. And he would rather focus on that than writing his book. No shade to Mr. Martin, but that is clearly what he's doing. He's...
00:17:04
Speaker
sort of taken over a show, I believe, called like Duncan. It's like an adaptation of his Duncan egg books. I think it's called A Night of the Seven Kingdoms. He's very much like on that show. he has a lot of creative control, but he has less creative control with House of the Dragon. And, you know, like there was an adaptation of i believe, the second episode of season two or the third episode. And ah George R.R. Martin, he has like a very famous blog where he places his thoughts. He criticized it. He criticized the show and that episode and the creator in a really like, you know, controversial way that became part of the news cycle. And it was just very crazy because you're just kind of like, dude, this is your show.
00:17:49
Speaker
This is part of your universe and you're trashing it online. It felt very surreal, but I feel what's crazy is that House of the Dragon season two is objectively better than season one because things are actually happening. In season one, so much of it was set up to the action that becomes season two. And I should also preface that even season two, even though it's much better, It's still just good because the main action hasn't happened. As I told you in our podcast, you know, this is set up to a war, like a proper civil war between these two factions. In season two, we're in like those starting battles of the war. They're still trying to see if they can resolve the war quickly and make peace with each other. And turns out that they can't. And so it's amping up even more. And I'm very actually excited for season three, because that's when real things like real actual conflict is supposed to happen, based on sort of the history that George R. R. Moore made in his Fire and Blood series. Wow.
00:18:53
Speaker
So of the boys, so you've seen the boys, the last of us. I've only seen only murders in the building, but you fell off on that. Yes. Um, of those three, the boys last of us the house of the dragon, would you place your weight on house of the dragon season three? i Strangely enough, I would, i would, even though like house of the dragon is like a weird show because when you're looking at it as a spinoff to a really widely like celebrated show like Game of Thrones up until like the last season, of course. But Game of Thrones was, I believe, the last really great water cooler show. And what I mean by that is like people would watch the show together every like week. And then at work, they would come over to each other over the water coolers and then discuss the show. It was a very much show that people discussed every week. And it was on people's minds every week when it came out. And it was a show that worked that way because it was pre-bench culture. Like it came out once a week. And now we have sort of this bench culture. Like HBO does a great job of still releasing things once a week.
00:19:58
Speaker
There hasn't been really a show other than maybe Succession at best that has demanded that
George R.R. Martin's Critique of 'House of the Dragon'
00:20:04
Speaker
sort of like water cooler sort of conversation and House of the Dragon by no means replicates that. But it's say she eats that to a degree because it's so essentially a song of ice and fire still that world. And it's still like fantasy, high drama.
00:20:22
Speaker
And it is objectively like an interesting and well made show. And because of that, My excitement is really high towards it because it's actually amping up to something exciting. Whereas the other two, you know, The Boys is about to end and The Boys is about to end on the backdrop of a season that was objectively the weakest season four. And The Last of Us is entering season three, but season three is adapting the most controversial aspect of the video game it's adapting. So again,
00:20:52
Speaker
In terms of like how you're feeling about these three different things, there is less weight on House of the Dragon in season three. There's more excitement because it's like, okay, this is ah they're objectively building up to the best part of this history that George R. R. Martin created. But the other two are going into uncharted waters, not just uncharted, but you you already have like a bad feeling about it based on what came before. Well, I mean, there's a lot of different factors going on there.
00:21:22
Speaker
So we'll have to check in again next year to see how House of the Dragon season three ends up faring. We're going to take a quick break, listen to some music and then come back and talk about some of the Emmy darlings of this season that just came by. Stay tuned.
00:21:43
Speaker
Yes, this is a break. no not the music you were promised. That involves a thing called licensing, which happens on the Zeitgeist homepage, which is on Mixcloud. I personally curate the music for every single episode. It's easy to start the episode in this exact spot and pick up where you left off.
00:22:02
Speaker
If not, no worries. Let's just pretend you were listening. And we're back. Okay, so next we should talk about a show that is getting a lot of Emmy attention. yeah Obviously not this year, but last year, Hacks unexpectedly won for the best comedy at the Emmys, which in some ways was kind of a reaction to the Bear winning the previous year.
Relevance of Hacks Season 4
00:22:27
Speaker
Now, Hacks, I think that's an interesting one. So we did season two. We are now up to season four. And a lot has happened on Hacks. We've now moved all the way out from the area of Las Vegas where Debra was being, she's Not necessarily realizing her full potential into l LA where she really is achieving her full potential. In a lot of ways, it's interesting because I think that season two might still be one of my favorite seasons of Hacks, but it's hard to say that the season that won the Emmy is not a good season as well. Where are you standing on Hacks right now? and I feel like Hax, even though season three was a little, you know, out there in terms of quality. over the place, right? I i was about to say, i think it's, I honestly think it's weaker than season two. I thought it was a little all over the place. It was just about, it tried to enlarge the scope.
00:23:21
Speaker
It does sort of what you talked about when only murders in the building, right? Where... Yeah, at Sandbox, the Sandbox changed, so they attempted to essentially you know expand but also reduce the Sandbox, meaning that it it gave a lot more focus to the two central characters, Debra and Ava. Even though that Season 3 was more experimental, it still was worthwhile. I think that that's the nice thing about Hacks, that Even in its quote-unquote weakest season, let's call it, and of season three, it still was objectively good because all it did was just experimented in ways that were still interesting, ways that still developed the characters in really interesting ways and deepened the characters and took them on a consistent journey. That's the other thing. like Both Debra and Ava have been very consistent with sort of their development and and their push and pull conflict they have with each other that remains not just integral, but fascinating to watch, which is a testament of its own that the central conflict of the show has been repeating for the past four seasons. And it's been repeating in consistently interesting ways. But the thing I really want to triumph here to and celebrate is the fact that season four feels like the encapsulation
00:24:39
Speaker
of the past four seasons. I feel like season four has actually been the strongest because it actually talks about something really relevant and it's kind of crazy that, you know, in season four, it really expands the scope because Debra gets what she wants. I mean, it's not a spoiler because, again, I think it really connects to our zeitgeist right now that she gets her own talk show and she's really successful at it because of Debra and her relationship to Debra. by the end of it, you know, something happens. And basically, huge consequences happen.
00:25:15
Speaker
And the crazy thing is that it happened to a real-world event that happened just months after that rocked our zeitgeist again. i don't want to go into spoilers because it is a fresh season of TV that just came out this year. It was sort of crazy because when it happened, when the real-world event happened, people immediately connected it to Axe. And even the Hacks people connected it to Hacks, like Hannah Einbinder posted it all over our social media. Not to be like, oh, look, our show is so relevant, but look how crazy the fact that this piece of fiction became devastatingly real. The whole point of Deborah is that she is a amalgamation of a lot of real life figures. And so to be able to see a proxy to her as a real life figure go through things that she goes through on the show is very interesting.
00:26:09
Speaker
And I think does speak largely to the fact that Hax is really on the frontier. And I love the way in which this show is continually throughout season by season showcasing young talent and often really great comedic talent. People who are best known for being on TikTok.
00:26:30
Speaker
I've seen a number of TikTok stars, people who are otherwise relegated to A24 movies. Actors that I personally love but really have not gotten their day show up as effectively day players. Quite literally, they get their day on Hacks.
00:26:47
Speaker
And then they go off and do their own things. But I think it's so wonderful that the show that is predominantly about the voices of people in comedy who might otherwise get shut out is not just talking the talk, but it's walking the walk in the way that it is conceiving its program. And so ah in terms of macros, great. Now, I do also want to nitpick the micros, which is how is this developed version of the show being heralded?
00:27:15
Speaker
And I'm kind of wilded out by the fact that, like, Caitlin Olsen is still on the show, and particularly the actor who's lesser known, but his name is Carl Clemens Hopkins, and he plays Marcus. And Marcus has been strung along, kind of, in this show. And finally, we kind of finally get, like, a good character arc for him in season four. But I felt like in season three, I had no idea what he was doing there.
00:27:42
Speaker
And that was ah largely a problem with the show morphing. But that's the thing. Like, that's what I mean, that it like it stays consistent to the characters, because I love that you said that he didn't really know where it was going. We didn't know where it was going with a story because he didn't know where it was going with a story. You know what I mean? And I think season four plays that out very nicely. Yeah, exactly. I feel like that was their plan. And obviously there was a pros and cons to that plan because it served as a setup for the next season, because I think the writers being the very smart writers that they are, realize that, you know, personality character became less and less important, but he was still in the show. He was still part of their story, and they had to utilize him somehow. They needed to tie up that end eventually.
00:28:26
Speaker
And I think they did that. I think they did that with a lot of grace. What I'm thinking about with season four is very similarly to what we just talked about with The Boys, actually, but inverse. Season four of The Boys was not good, but season four of Hacks was really good. And I feel like they're both heading towards something. The Boys is heading towards its end. We don't know if season five will be the end of Hacks.
00:28:53
Speaker
But I feel like with Hacks, what's interesting is that season five goes back to basics. It does the very standard like thing of when a show becomes really big, when it nears sort of that final arc or that final season, it goes back to essentially that first season framework blueprint. And ironically speaking, that's actually what happened with the show You and that we covered not that long ago. So five season show, it took us back to the first season location of New York and it tied the weirdest ends with that first season, but in the fifth season. But the tough thing too about a show like that is that you don't end with the same car you started to drive in season one. No, you don't. Pull Downs was like... the seminal side character. She was like, he drove the B-plot in season one. In
Diverse Casting in Hacks
00:29:49
Speaker
season four, Paul Downs is much more secondary to the comic characters, which make up the larger portion of the B-plot. And Meg Stalter, I think, is set to win the Emmy this year. Yeah. In a lot of ways, but I feel like even Robbie Hoffman has been set up to win the Emmy this year. I feel like Robbie Hoffman plays a new character in season four and a brilliant side character, but that's what I mean. Hacks kind of completes like a trio, so speak, that we were kind of always hoping for. And you're right. She's like absolutely one of the standouts. And that's what i mean, complete unknown. But I think that that's what this show does really well. As you said, like bringing up the whole TikTok star thing. And there is even a joke being made about that in the show. And again, one of the best actors working in Hollywood plays, the Dance Mom. Yeah, exactly. But that's what I'm saying. There are people who come in and out of the show who are just...
00:30:49
Speaker
brilliant on all fronts and it doesn't matter if they're TikTok stars, unknowns, or like actresses and actors that have been around the industry for a very, very long time and you recognize them immediately.
00:31:02
Speaker
It's just what this is. Hacks is just, it's a playground of such pedigree that it's very similar to another show we're going to be talking about very, very soon as sort of this ground, this playground for just actors of all shapes and sizes who are very excited to be part of this world. And that's just a testament to just the creative ability and the creative prestige and goodwill that these creators have built up with their shows.
00:31:30
Speaker
Well, that tees it up so well. We have to talk about The Bear, which this is quite the twist, right? yeah We covered The Bear when it was in season one. yes Now, in some ways, I want to say, firstly, that I am much, much, much,
00:31:49
Speaker
more of a dissenting opinion to the larger conversation
The Bear's Experimental Approach
00:31:53
Speaker
about the bear. And I think that you probably, Niv, represent the majority yeah who believe that the bear has faltered in somewhat over recent years. Yes. But we covered the show when it was still... season one, and we didn't really even know if there was going to be another season when we talked about the show. And in some ways, maybe... Well, I remember that you were against it. Maybe it shouldn't have. I was against it because it was a self-contained story. And I was actually, here's my story and I'm gonna tell it. okay When I started season two, I was still against it. And I didn't understand what this new version of the show was because season two starts very, very differently.
00:32:36
Speaker
And it immediately drops you in something that is much slower. and sometimes even lethargic at times through two through four. But I felt like we were in a totally new version of the bear. And I don't know if I liked it for about five or six episodes.
00:32:56
Speaker
And then there was one-two punch. There were two episodes. One was called Fishes. The one directly after that was called Forks. And And throughout, and those two are still maybe the highest of the pedigree. yeah After i finished watching Forks, I was all in on the bear and I still am.
00:33:17
Speaker
Yeah, but I feel like what's interesting is that season two is the peak of the bear because of those two episodes and also the two final episodes in the first season. I feel like the reason why the bear sort of earned its place in the zeitgeist was because of this expectation that the final two episodes of the season were going to shock you They were going to like very much be... like TV of of the old days of something like The Sopranos or a Game of Thrones, you would watch something and it would literally slap you in the face, but in like a good way because it was just so unexpected. and it was an immediate sort of thing of like, I'm not going to forget this moment of me watching this. What I think is great about The Bear is that it is not standard TV. It's not. we didn't see that until season two. I think season one very much did feel like a relatively standard TV show, but it was also dropped as a binge model. And starting with season two, I feel the writers are increasingly leaning into the binge. And so you are not, in fact, getting a whole story from
00:34:30
Speaker
a single episode anymore. And that was really, I mean, it was starting to happen in season two. You could felt it shift, but that really didn't align itself completely until season three. Now, one of the major critiques against the bear is in fact, not about the show itself, but about how the critics have reacted to the show. And furthermore, how the network has placed it within the critical conversation, wherein They are like, well, we're going to still classify this as a comedy at the Emmys. It's not a limited series anymore.
00:35:05
Speaker
It's not a comedy, certainly, but it's not the same show that it was in season one. This is not a drama either. The Bear is something I think entirely different. And so I think to view it from this top-down perspective of like, what is the show like, immediately gives it a disservice as a piece of work.
00:35:24
Speaker
And when I go and I watch a show, I want to say not what I want the show to be, but I want to say, what is this show trying to be for itself? So if I watch The Boys, I'm not going to look at it like I'm watching Hamnet. I want to look at it like I am watching The Boys, like I'm watching a regular piece of TV. And so maybe I'm not going to continue watching it because that's not for me. With a show like The Bear, this show is built for me and I've never found it before. So every time I'm getting a new morsel, a new episode, I'm like, wow, this is amazing. And I think the tough thing is that watching it in the environment, especially around LA where people are always talking about media and entertainment, I feel every new time i approach the bear, every new year I come into the show, I've had to spend the last 11 months hearing people rag on it.
00:36:18
Speaker
And it makes it that much harder to watch the show because the criticisms are valid. It is not the same show it was in season one, but I never thought it was. But think about it this way, right? Like, I'll say two things. One, with season three particularly, it has become a lot more experimental.
00:36:35
Speaker
because it takes its time. And also in season four, that's the same thing, it takes its time. And there are sort of these episodes that feel like they're one-off, they focus on specific characters. There is this the episode Napkins that belongs to the character of Tina. I feel like that is the best example of it being done really well. But what ends up happening Is that because it feels so experimental, there's major issues with pacing. I actually would argue that season three and season four feel like two halves of the same season because that's true.
00:37:09
Speaker
Yeah. And it it feels that way because it's moving towards a before and after and the before and after should have not been broken up to two seasons. In many ways, it feels like the episodes were extended because of this experimentation and it's ruined sort of the pacing. Like, let's contrast this to what I just said about Hacks.
00:37:29
Speaker
Hacks has always maintained truth to the journey of the characters. It's been very consistent with where the characters have started, where they're going, and where they will likely end. Because it's been very, very consistent with who they are as people. But with the bear, it doesn't feel like that anymore. it feels like they're all over the place, like every character. I barely know what Carmi's feeling because, again, Carmi doesn't talk because so much of the show is not even about him. And I even think that what they they do with him in season four solidifies that. And I feel like that's such a shame because we the Carmi that we got to know in season one. and an extension in season two feels like a character that was emerging out of his cocoon in some ways. But season three and season four have showcased that he's almost died inside of his cocoon. Like we haven't seen that Priscilas open up to a character that's changed and has developed. Because again, we haven't had enough time with him in his development.
00:38:30
Speaker
as the show's gone on. It's kind of funny because I'll concede to that and I'll also note that the version of the show that we get particularly in the case of Iowa Debris character as we are nearing the end of season four is You do get a sense that this has been a character arc that in a standard piece of TV would have been about an episode and a half. And we have gotten 20 episodes of her essentially waffling about how her future is going to look. In the case of Carmi, then you also have a show that is increasingly less interested in the character that was originally the main character, right? And that has happened from the jump in season two. You are getting whole episodes dedicated to people who are not Carmi. And once again, this is something that I had pause about before anybody else did.
00:39:26
Speaker
But I immediately quelled that once I realized that the show that they are trying to tell is about the love of food, if not necessarily the food itself, but the experience around it And the 90% of a restaurant experience that is not about actually consuming the food itself, but about the atmosphere that exists around it. And what is that atmosphere and how can it be tweaked? But also what needs to be left alone in that atmosphere too? And the bear is a very, very long winded meditation on that. Here's my counterpoint to that, because this is the other thing I wanted to say.
00:40:00
Speaker
The bear, as we talked about with the whole like its characterization as a comedy, let's not forget what it is a spiritual successor to in many ways. It's a spiritual successor to the show Shameless, like the U.S. version of the show. Shameless? Yeah, it is. I argue that. I really believe that. Show that's like a dramatic comedy, right? That's what it is. A really gritty, dramatic comedy that's really hard hitting and about people come from the lower part of Chicago, the south side
Comparing 'The Bear' to 'Shameless'
00:40:32
Speaker
of Chicago. come together to essentially survive the outside, meaning Chicago itself. It's the same thing. And obviously, like people who are listening to this, oh, you're just saying this because Jeremy Allen White is in both. No, it's literally the same kind of tone when you really break it down. because it is about someone who's very, very troubled. Just like Emmy Roussel's character Fiona, the entire arc is literally her trying to succeed and being really hungry to succeed, but everything falls apart around her all the time because of both her family and the stress of everything. It's the same thing that happens in The Bear with Carmi.
00:41:13
Speaker
Carmi constantly tries to build something up, and he constantly feels the pressure of life choking him. And his stuff with his family and his past, choking him. And all this expectation, choking him. He's a person with an immense amount of talent, but at the end of the day his worst enemy is himself. That is not that different from Fiona Gallagher's whole character arc over, I believe, seven seasons. But what I think is really interesting, especially as we're reaching season five of The Bear, is that by season eight of Shameless,
00:41:46
Speaker
Emmy Russom left the show. The main character, the main vehicle of the show, left. And obviously it shifted to being like what you just said. It wasn't necessarily about Fiona Gallagher. It was about the family. It was about the community. But to that I say, well, Shameless really, really dropped off because of season eight, because there was no centralized character. that we essentially build towards a lot of goodwill. And that's what I'm saying. I have the same trepidation coming into season five of The Bear because Harmy, for better or worse, is the central anchor of the show, not just because he is the person who created the entire restaurant, that we know of today as the bear, which is the vehicle of the show, but because so much of the show was built off of his own trauma, his own hunger to be a perfectionist and to succeed, and his own family dynamics with everybody around him. He was literally the main connector towards everyone. So that's what I'm saying. There have been shows in the past that were like, OK, let's weave out the main character of the show that we built on from the original season.
00:42:56
Speaker
Shows like that have existed, but more often than not, shows like that have failed because they've gone that route. So, no, I am not excited about like what's going to happen because history is usually right when it repeats itself. We shall see. The detriment to us recording ahead of time is we don't have the ah benefit of hindsight, but in this case, we will have no idea. Next year, the Bearer season five will likely be at our fingertips once again with the full season drop. That's going to be the question mark here. Seasons 1 and 2 were both made in vastly different environments. Seasons 3 and 4 were made in relatively similar environments, although i from what I gather, season 4 was picked up again.
00:43:43
Speaker
They filmed some of seasons 3 and 4 back to back, but they did incorporate certain aspects, one of which was literally a ticking clock, which I thought was just hilarious because of the exact criticism. that you were flinging at it. The funny thing is that they added the ticking clock, I almost felt as sort of a thing to throw at the audience. And yet the show did not really fundamentally change because of the ticking clock. They just had cutaways to the ticking clock. It was still very soft and very slow and very kind and very meditative.
00:44:20
Speaker
which is exactly what it was in season three. There was no real change. They just added a ticking clock to make it seem like there was a little bit more tension. And you know what? I think the critical reviews actually went up on season four, probably partially to that. That's not true. It actually lowered the lowest rated season is season four. Like on Metacritic, it's the only one that hit 70s, not 80s. There you go. Metacritic. Love it. But that being said, i am so in on the bear. I love that. But I'm also someone who is more drawn to slower work. I do tend to fare towards the slow cinema movement. And so maybe this is something that's going to be more interesting to me. I'm also, full disclosure, a chef.
00:45:06
Speaker
So maybe that's also something that draws me into the bear. both love Chicago. It's unique to me. And I love Chicago and those pastoral scenes of Carmi wandering around the Frank Lloyd Wright house.
00:45:20
Speaker
They do really hit the spot for me. That being said, there is a lot of good stuff coming throughout this next year. I'm really excited to talk about it here on Zeitgeist. So thank you so much for listening to this. What we would, I guess, call a mini-sode, even though for a lot of podcasts, this is probably a full-length episode. So I appreciate you guys tuning in. Maybe this is your first episode. If so, maybe give our some of our old episodes a listen. You're getting a lot of different flavors here. So take the one you like the best. You can always follow us on socials, ZeitgeistPulp on Instagram. Thank you so much to Jolin, who is my partner here in the podcasting space.
00:46:01
Speaker
As we are doing post-production together, i am your head producer, Jordan Conrad. am the co-host, Niro Baiz. And are signing off. We will see you again very shortly to talk about some Oscar-y things coming down the pipe. We'll see you again soon.
00:46:20
Speaker
Bye.