Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
The Historical Dramas That Win Awards, with 'Mary & George' & 'Shogun'
33 Plays1 year ago
As the Emmy window closes, Jordan and Niv recall two historically-based dramas from this year on TV. They discuss 'Mary and George' on Starz, how homosexuality plays a role in the show (8:50) and overall how seriously the show takes its execution (19:01). They touch briefly on some spoilers for the final moments of the sensational program (22:17) before moving on to 'Shogun' on Hulu (35:56). Niv maps out the real-life locations in Japan (44:16) that 'Shogun' spends its time around before detailing the period the show takes place in (46:33). They discuss together the show's acting talent and characters (53:12), and get into spoilers for the show (1:06:04).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Zeitgeist
00:00:07
Speaker
Hey again everyone, welcome to Zeitgeist, the show where we talk about all the latest TV and movies while we listen to the latest music.
TV Show Focus: May Recap
00:00:15
Speaker
Today we're back in the TV sphere as the month of May comes to an end. By the time you're listening to this it's probably closer to June. ah We've had some delays here in the zeitgeist world, so thank you guys all
Emmy Contenders: Mary & George vs. Shogun
00:00:28
Speaker
so much for listening. I hope you guys did tune in on our two previous episodes because we'll be making direct reference to both of them today with Mary and George and Shogun. Two shows that are definitely jostling for a spot in the Emmy's roster come the nominations, which should be showing up relatively soon, right?
Upcoming Emmy Speculations and Exciting Shows
00:00:50
Speaker
When do Emmy nominations usually come out? Do you remember?
00:00:52
Speaker
I mean, they come out in the summer, right? If the Emmys happen, when do they happen in September? And once again, I'm Jordan Conrad. Joining me is, of course, my co-host Nivel Boz. Hi. Yeah. So usually the um Emmys window like ends around the end of May and then the actual ceremony is in September.
Summer TV Anticipation
00:01:10
Speaker
But a lot of good TV coming up in the summer as well. I'm very excited for the bear to be returning. Obviously Hax has been on. I'm sure by the time you guys are listening to this, Hax has already concluded its third season. And we've got the Acolyte. Tons of good stuff on TV. Rings of Power, if anybody still cares about that. House of the Dragon will be coming back
Historical Drama Shift: Bridgerton Spotlight
00:01:30
Speaker
as well.
00:01:30
Speaker
So it's a really, really big year for, oh, the boys, of course, is coming back. So lots and lots and lots of good stuff. But in terms of what really turns heads right now, today, we're talking about the historical drama on TV. Now, Niv, are you are you a Bridgerton watcher? I mean, like I watched the first two seasons, but I was in a relationship at that time. So it was just it was what you would watch. It was it was a good like a relationship TV show to watch. Me and my girlfriend watched the Gerard Carmichael reality show, so I have absolutely no context in- What? No, I've never- You don't watch Bridgerton with your girlfriend? No, I've never watched Bridgerton in my life.
00:02:08
Speaker
I think that it's a show particularly made for that kind of dynamic and demographic just because it's made by Shonda Rhimes, who has her own little TV empire.
Shonda Rhimes' Impact on Romance Dramas
00:02:19
Speaker
Right. And Shonda Rhimes has really made a name for herself in this genre. Right. So, I mean, me and my girlfriend, we like to watch, I don't know, The Godfather. We've watched Altman's Nashville within the past couple of weeks. I mean, I don't know if our relationship is necessarily typified. Now, what about Bridgerton do you think sits well for men and women in a domestic partnership to come together and watch these shows? What about the historical drama makes that so unique? Well, I think especially with the case of Bridgerton and Shonda Rhimes is that it's not just Bridgerton, right? She also created Grey's Anatomy, which is still an ongoing procedural romantic medical drama. She also, I believe, did How to Get Away with Murder. She's done quite a bit of stuff, but it always appeals to sort of like a younger generation. It doesn't appeal to an older generation, usually. I think that Grey's Anatomy in particular, along with Bridgerton, falls into sort of what Shonda Rhimes is best at, which is create, you know, romance dramas, but in a serialized form.
Bridgerton: Prestige Soap Opera Appeal
00:03:21
Speaker
But also make it appealing to men. There's a lot of drama. There's a lot of drama that happens to it that makes it like interesting. But I think for men to get into those shows, they need to be dragged by their girlfriends. I mean, I was definitely dragged by my girl. But what kind of drama are we talking about here? I mean, it's smutty. I mean, that's what it is. It's smutty sort of like sexy drama. Is it the base level of, like, emotion? Is it the things that, like, the animal instincts of men that draw them to these programs? I mean, I think it's all sorts of things. First of all, it's, like, sexy. Bredgerton is, like, a strangely sexy show to watch. But more importantly, the bigger appeal to it is that it's, like, prestige or more prestige soap operas.
Serialized Storytelling in Dramas
00:04:04
Speaker
I think that's the real draw. There's an inherent drama to it that, you know, hooks you. It hooks you week by week, but not and not in this case because Netflix releases everything at at once. But at least with the procedural like Grey's Anatomy, there is that idea that when you watch it, there is sort of like either cliffhangers or character relationships that push you into the next episode because you grow really attached to the drama these characters go through. In a much lesser extent, you could also argue about that with any TV show, especially like comedies, like sitcoms. Character interactions carry over multiple episodes. But in the case of both Bridgerton, especially Bridgerton, because we're talking about historical dramas, you're also learning new things. You're learning about things that you don't necessarily know because there's a lot of courting involved.
00:04:50
Speaker
And there's a lot of sexual tension involved in that kind of show because for most of it, the two leads, especially in Bridgerton's case, the love story changes every season because it focuses on a different family member of the Bridgerton family.
Courtship in Historical vs. Modern Context
00:05:04
Speaker
But usually the plot point is the same. There's two lovers, but they're not necessarily together from the get go. They're interested in each other, but they're not allowed to touch each other because of historical sort of regulations of like, OK, You can't have sex until you're married or you can't be with him because he's of lower class than you or a bunch of different reasons of why they can't be together. It's almost like a Romeo and Juliet paradigm. Well, and what I'm hearing as well is that we are in our world, obviously separated from that. Our idea of courtship in the modern age does not include that sort of like distance, right? And so in many ways, the difference between something like yeah ER, Grey's Anatomy, where Shonda Rhimes got her start, versus something like Bridgerton, which is not what we're actually going to be talking about today, but I think does have some relation to
Historical Drama Escapism
00:05:55
Speaker
it. That particular genre that she moved into is a form of escapism. because you would be able to find yourself in these characters, but you wouldn't see these characters in everyday life. And it's a world that's gone by, and obviously due to the fact that we are making these shows today, I mean, all history in the televised world is going to be somewhat revisionist. And it seems like Bridgerton has leaned in on that. Certainly shows like The Tudors on HBO is very similar in tone to what we're talking about today, Mary and George. um Have you seen that particular Of course I have, yeah. Great actors all around. Henry Cavill started his career on the Tudors. How much the first two seasons? I mean, that's funny. I watched the first two seasons of Bridgerton and the first two seasons of the Tudors. English history really attracts me. It's fascinating to me, like the British nobility and British aristocracy. Those are things that very much interest me. And whenever a show is being done that way, especially shows that have certain historical figures that are real, like again, in Bridgerton, most of the characters are fiction, except the Queen, of course, the Queen in Bridgerton is based on a real person.
Historical Accuracy vs. Revisionism Debate
00:07:07
Speaker
But, like, whether or not she was African-British is still debated today. Like, whether or not she was dark-skinned versus, like, she was kind of white-skinned. It's debated. But with the Tudors, it's entirely historical. Like, sure, the interactions between the characters are fictionalized because that's what happens in an adaptation. The Tudors follows the quote-unquote love life of Henry VIII and sort of his journey between all his six wives.
00:07:32
Speaker
ah so Which is something that has been famously chronicled throughout various pieces of media, the other Berlin girl, stuff like that. And that was an age, I think I called it an HBO show. It was Showtime.
Showtime vs. HBO: Thematic Differences
00:07:43
Speaker
that it was show time It was Showtime. And you can really tell because of the way that I think Showtime really leaned into its edginess. It had shows like Weeds on it. It was very often not for the kids kind of shows. Whereas HBO was about prestige. It was about, let's do the wire. Let's make things that are really procedural in an elevated way. Whereas Showtime felt very much more like, we are for the adults and we're what the adults watch when the kids go
Mary & George's Edgy Historical Drama
00:08:12
Speaker
to sleep. And so that was, I think, reflective in sort of what became this niche of historical dramas, which is often a little risque.
00:08:22
Speaker
Now, from what I gather, Bridgerton's novels are going to be a bit more risque, their typical romance fare with all of the naughty chapters included. But in the case of Showtime historical dramas and thus the stars show that we're talking about today, Mary and George, it very much acts as this edgy take on history. It seems to be almost going all the way to the 10 mark when it comes to being edgy and making choices. I'm curious to hear whether all of the quote-unquote edgy choices they made are also based in history, because there are choices that they make later down in the show that are a little befuddling sometimes, but often very sensational, very bingeable, very much in the realm of what we would consider to be bingeable TV. Yeah, I mean, there is that sense that when you play politics and any sort of show, there's a lot of backstabbing that goes around. And in this show, you know, it capitalizes on that to a T, you know, there's so many backstabbing, so many maneuvers happening in this kind of show. But at the same time, we've seen that in a much more, I want to say, grounded way as opposed to stylized way with both Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon.
00:09:31
Speaker
So, you know, this is not a new novel concept that when you watch like a historical fiction drama, ah most of it is a lot of political maneuvering. But also the adult content definitely feels in line with House of the Dragon. I mean, just the way that they're really punctuating the like f-bombs on the show. They talk about sex and they talk about sexuality ah predominantly
Critique of Mary & George's Execution
00:09:55
Speaker
on the show. um Both George Villiers and his mother engage in same-sex relationships and the show seems to be really interested in looking at homosexuality in that era specifically, which is I think by far the most interesting part of the show.
00:10:09
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. And there is something to be said, just going back to the tutors a bit, that that show in itself had a lot of sex. Obviously that was sort of the point of the show. It chronicled the insatiable appetite of Henry VIII. And I remember watching that alongside Shameless, which was also on Showtime. And it was very much like focus on like, all right, we are like edgy, we are sort of dark, but at the same time, we are also like sexy in a really like grungy sort of way. And I feel like that translates really well with Mary and George. I feel like Mary and George is more of a successor to the Tudors, even shameless. Then let's say that it is something that goes alongside Bridgerton, because I feel like Bridgerton is very much its own thing. And also House of the Dragon is very much its own thing. If there was like a big line where one was very much like steamy, sexy historical drama, I would say Bridgerton is on one line and then the other one is like grounded prestige, I would say House of the Dragon.
00:11:09
Speaker
House of the Dragon is also fantasy with dragons. and I know, I know. But that's the line we have. That's what I'm saying. That is the current line we have. I mean, theoretically, instead of that show, I could name a different show that we're going to talk about very, very not a show that we'll talk briefly very, very like soon. That's the word I was looking for. But what I'm trying to say is that Mary and George, you're right that its most interesting feature is the exploration of homosexuality of that period. But at the same time, because it tries to do both so much in the sense of like, all right, we are a show that is a bit different than all the other sort of shows that are out there. It tries to do a bit too much, but it doesn't do enough.
Historical Intrigue in Mary & George
00:11:47
Speaker
That is actually my main issue with the show, that as interesting as, you know, the characters are and that political situation, that historical situation was with James I, it never struck me as a show that was actually trying to say anything.
00:12:01
Speaker
Well, what's fascinating about this period is that there is well, what isn't fascinating about this period? and We're talking about King James the sixth, who I believe the sixth of Scotland and the first of England, the sixth of Scotland and the first of England, who was known for a number of things, including some scandals that are portrayed on the show. But things that I don't remember being covered is, is he the King James of the King James Bible? I want to say he is. I think so. I mean, he was a pretty significant king. He was the one that united the Scottish and British crowns. He was a successor to Elizabeth I. This transitioned from the Elizabethan era to the Jacobian era. He represents the Jacobian era.
00:12:41
Speaker
Obviously, his unification of Scotland to England, being the king of Scotland moving to England, is prominent. The aspects of him as a king who brought in a new translation of the Bible, which is often still considered seminal, the plot on Parliament with Guy Fawkes was under his reign, which I don't think was covered. If it was, I blinked and I missed it in the second half of the show. There were many, many events that the show chooses not to cover in its seven episodes. Yeah, because again, I think it very much just focuses on the, not necessarily the political intrigue of the show, it's just focused on the relationships of the show. Because when I say the relationships, I don't even mean between the mother, Mary Villar is played by Julian Moore and her lover, a respective lover, or Nicholas Galladzine, who plays George and his respective lover, James I.
00:13:36
Speaker
I'm talking about the relationship between mother and son. That is the core relationship because they work together to essentially have the king under their thumb because that is the main plot point. Every decision they make goes towards that goal of using the king to get to essentially support them financially and give them power. But that's the thing. Eventually, to me, that started losing steam. It made the characters feel as if they were not actually growing, because even though they were getting more power, they were getting sort of what they wanted. It did sort of feel like it was starting to stagnate because they weren't evolving, so to speak.
00:14:12
Speaker
Well, on the benchmarks of historical depictions, and the ones that don't succeed super well are often marked by this issue with character, where they have to hit these marks and so the story is more concerned with the scope of the history than of the specific internal aspects of the characters. And I would say that George Villiers does a better job throughout the show of growing and changing and developing, and I do find him to be a character that does grow and change throughout these seven episodes. That said, I think that the actor Galentine or some such... And Nicholas Galatine, yeah. galatzine I think that Galencine is a little green or a role that does require so much heft. I would be interested to see if he had been, I don't know, maybe aged up about five years because he looks young in the show and I think that works for him, but also he feels just like a a young actor and it's hard for him to be able to carry the show super well. On the other hand, you have Julianne Moore whose character is effectively stagnant but because she is such a deeply internal actor in this show versus we talked a couple months ago the ah May-December which has a similar amount of internality as a script but she's able to bring this like really powerful external force to the entire movie not just her own character. I mean she acts as this
00:15:37
Speaker
underlying threat in the movie. And it's a beautiful, beautiful movie that's on Netflix right now for everyone to watch if you've missed our episode covering it, which you should listen to after this. But I think there are two people who would kind of watch this show. One person would be very interested in the Jacobean era, someone who is a history buff, who wants to see this relationship chronicled. If you're interested in George Villiers specifically, you're going to get a lot out of the show. If you're interested in the broader scope of England, King James I, I think that I would find him less thrilling. I think that he's an interesting character. I think they give him this really raucous persona that is very fun, but limited. to the scope of the show. And the other half would be fans of Julianne Moore. If you liked her in Magnolia, you will love her in this because she is smoldering through every single scene. She is doing a beautiful, beautiful job. but She's an executive producer on the show. So it's certainly that kind of program.
00:16:34
Speaker
And that is, I think, what I have to say in terms of non-spoilers about her and her aspect on the show, talking more broadly. Is there any other specific factors that you want to get to before we line into some of the later aspects of the show? Now, you've only watched up to episode four. Yes. Well, I'm going to spoil it for you in just a second because I want to talk about some of the details in the later half of the show and how it applies to the history. So if you are interested in checking out this program, feel free to not listen any further. We will give one more marker before we move into spoilers. We'll also talk about Shogun in the second half. I think we'll have to get into spoilers there too. Broad scope. ah What did you think about ah Mary and George? Look, i like I said, or at least signaled, I thought that the reason I only watched up to the episode four is because I felt like I got the point of the show and then I started losing interest. This is the first time this has happened in our podcast where I haven't completed a show. Or I think the closest it got to was ah when we watched Blonde, but that was a movie where I wanted to stop in the middle and I was like, no, I get it. I don't want to keep watching. But, you know, we talked about it and then I kept watching.
00:17:38
Speaker
But the thing I wanted to say is that, look, there is a lot of good factors in the show. I think Julianne Moore, you're right. It feels like a passion project for her because it is. She's the executive producer of the show. As I said in our last episode of May, December, she is a actress that is one of the big, big ones of our generation, but nobody truly gives her credit. Like when you hear Natalie Portman, like you hear Natalie Portman. When you hear Scarlett Johansson, you hear Scarlett Johansson. but When you hear Julianne Moore, you start thinking to yourself, okay, what has she been in? And I think that is such a wrong sort of statement to have in your mind because she's been in so many amazing projects that you should watch right now. But, you know, I want to also push back on what you said about Nicholas, uh, Galladzine. He is a little green, but he's also been like a rising star. He's been the very definition of a rising star. He's been in the movie bottoms by the, uh,
00:18:26
Speaker
Yeah, that was um Rachel Sennett and comboed with Emma Seligman for MGM. So he is a rising star in sort of the old Hollywood sense. yeah He's been in a lot of MGM Amazon projects. Yeah. And he's like in a new movie with Anne Hathaway. He's been in big projects. And I think the thing that truly put him on the map was the Cinderella movie with Camila Cabello or something like that. Basically, he's been in like high level projects where he's been in essentially like the hot guy in whatever project he's been in. And that stays true in this. So he's been very much typecast. Man, if I had a bit more of a pain threshold, we could have ah paired this episode with the idea of you another Amazon project, which is Galatine and Hathaway. There it is.
00:19:14
Speaker
where Galencine plays a member of a boy band that Anne Hathaway meets at Coachella. This was released on May 2nd. So very recently, it just tells of the love story of Olivia Wilde and Harry Styles and how they met. And don't worry, darling. I think that this is a bit more, what's that called, AO3. Yeah, my broad idea of Mary and George, I'm looking through my notes right now, obviously takes on sexuality in a really interesting way, but I think also can be very blunt at times. I'm looking at my notes from episode one where a woman goes, well, you're bisexual, aren't you? I see the way you look at boys and you look at girls the same way and it's obviously a well-meaning I think in that way it's attempting subtlety but I think it's it can be a little bit on the head um and I think largely that is because of the broad of scope of it the nature of it having to take on so much that ambition to be able to take a lifetime and turn it into seven episodes. And we've talked about this before on ah previous episodes. When we talked about May December, I think you can only see so much of a character and make the connection to a real life person because you end up having to distill it. Even if you're doing seven hours of TV, it's still going to be a massive distillation on the real character of George Villiers. And I certainly felt the distillation process happening in real time.
00:20:40
Speaker
Sir Francis Bacon comes in in episode two or three and he's like introduced Oppenheimer style and he hangs around for a lot of the show and he's a really big character. But there and again, you don't get other big characters well known in the ah English history world like the guy who ran the gunpowder plot, um Guy Fawkes or j Shakespeare or Shakespeare. Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of really tasty morsels that they leave on the cutting room floor. And that is in some way indicative of the fact that this show has a lot of ground to cover. They taper the drama upwards, though, and that's a boon to it. They continue to kind of ramp things up. And yeah, that's kind of a lot of the big stuff. Oh, the technical aspects I do want to cover, too, um before we talk spoilers. I think the music is one of my favorite parts of the show.
00:21:30
Speaker
The editing, similarly, they do these like really abrupt cut editing moments. In these high moments of tension, they'll do these really abrupt cuts. Those were really cool. And I think shows that there is a lot of care put into the show, a lot of really talented artists working on this project. However, I think that these artists, if they had been, I think given maybe a larger budget, or something where they were able to take their time a little more and invest in these characters in a more meaningful way. I mean, Stars is ultimately going to be a lesser streaming platform. And what they're attempting to do with this show is capture the Bridgerton audience. So in that way, I think that this show is doing its best, but at the end of the day, it can only go so far.
00:22:17
Speaker
Now, you ended out in about episode four. I'm gonna start talking spoilers here, so spoiler warning ahead for Mary and George, and in the second half we will be talking some spoilers about the show Shogun, but you can skip to the early parts of that and we'll be talking more broadly there. So in the latter half of the show, there is one implication that I don't think was ever really explicit, but it implies essentially that George Villiers had his mother's mistress who she was cavorting with and scheming with throughout the show.
00:22:52
Speaker
He had her mistress killed after she expressly wanted her mistress to be exonerated. um I believe the mistress had some criminal charges pressed against her. And on the way out, there is this like conniving female character who is very similar. Do you remember the last season of Curb Your Enthusiasm? There's this plot with Sienna Miller always eating an apple and chewing the scenery. Well, this is what that show is making fun of. I swear to God, opening of, I think it was episode five, this woman walks around, she's like strutting around this like pigsty and she like eats a couple bites of this apple and she's like smarmy and she drops the apple and she's like, there you go, piggy, have an apple.
00:23:36
Speaker
And then later in the show, she's eating an apple again. And it's like, chewing the scenery quite literally. Just like, looking around, eating an apple. And then she's like, I'm gonna get you, lesbian. And she shives her. Why is my question? Like, why did they choose the apple? Is it true that George Villiers indirectly assassinated his Mother's mistress. I have no clue it seems to be that there is little evidence to support it from my cursory search and furthermore the implication is in the very final episode that Mary and George come together and they're all around King James and She and George are at a fire with James or some such thing They're at like a campfire and King James finds out that George has been to court and has lied about his intentions at court and has um steered the people away from one ideology and towards another. I mean, again, these are kind of the dealings that I'm sure are very real. But then he says, well, George, I'm going to kill you, and then immediately starts inhaling smoke from the fire, keels over and then is brought back to his bed wherein George smothers him to death.
00:24:53
Speaker
I have found not much evidence to support that George Villiers killed King James I. From my research, King James I died March 27th, 1625, likely due to a stroke or other natural causes. There is no credible historical evidence that suggests that Villiers murdered him. Look, there's no historical evidence that George Villiers actually assassinated slash murdered the king. But there is a lot of historical evidence that the king, especially in the later years of his life, was very sickly. He had arthritis, kidney stones, he had a lot of medical issues that really destroyed his health. I think maybe that's what they were drawing from, the idea that
00:25:34
Speaker
This was a sickly man and George Villiers was putting him out of his misery. But that's the thing, even when I was watching the show, like there was no real indication that he was sickly, that he was very close to death, you know, at that particular age. But there were a lot of sort of conversations at the expense of how old he was and how not attractive he was, because that was the other point. The reason why he was around sort of these young and beautiful men was to feel superior to them, even though, ironically, which was another interesting thing about the show that I wish was talked about a little deeper, is that even though he was a king, in order to truly feel superior to the men around him, he needed to be with young, attractive men and have power over them specifically.
00:26:21
Speaker
Yeah, and the internal concept that they're playing with in terms of the King, King James, were obviously interesting. And I think the actor that they cast as King James was magnanimous. I think he was very talented and did a fantastic job of portraying the King. I mean, they build him up in the early episodes. And once he's actually revealed The reveal is one of the better parts of the show, and I think the show really hits its stride around Episode 3, wherein King James really has his biggest moment, but then still we get a little bit of mystery behind him. And as the show continues, it does continue to ramp up, and as I've mentioned, a little bit to its detriment.
00:27:03
Speaker
And in that ramp up, we do see the more human sides of James. We see a lot of things. I think it reveals a lot. It wants to reveal a lot. And in consequence, some of the inertia and dramatic tension ends up going away because they just move too fast and it's hard for them to really grapple on to the aspects of what would make the show really fantastic. I mean, I look at the Netflix show One Day, which really goes in about like specific days of this relationship, day by day by day by day. And the movie Jobs, the Steve Jobs movie, which has a day by day by day approach. and I think the show could have been transcendent if it had taken to going day by day by day instead of trying to do all of these moments and all of this history and consequently I think it ended up needing to dive into places that it didn't have to go and show explicitly things that are historically false and, to my opinion, a little rude and and crude and not kind to George Villiers, even if he was an ambitious individual that acted in some inappropriate ways throughout his life. I think that villainizing him does more harm than good, especially from the context of his sexuality. being one of the more revolutionary parts of the show. And casting him as a villain ultimately doesn't make him gray morally. And I ironically think that it does a lot of the things that May-December, as a movie, has an ideology against, which is that exploitation of those who cannot stand up for themselves anymore.
00:28:53
Speaker
Well, it's interesting because historically speaking, George Villiers is a little vilified. And it's not because of his sexuality, it's because he was incompetent. When he inherited the dukeship in Buckingham, I believe, because that's sort of his family lineage, he was so incompetent that he was assassinated at a very young age. The people in Buckingham treated the assassin as a hero. So again, there is sort of historical accuracy that maybe, you know, George Villiers shouldn't be put in the most positive light, him and his mother, especially because even in the show, they're trying to capitalize on an old man in some ways that is elder abuse. Really like that. That's like two things here that we can truly dive in on the complexities of showing homosexuality in a TV show like this, but also just like two people taking advantage of an old man.
00:29:44
Speaker
Right. But then I think about is there something that's already done this better? And the answer to me is yes. Yeah. yeah The favorite is undoubtedly. Undoubtedly the peak of that mountain. Absolutely. But the thing I will also say is that, you know, you brought up a great point of like how the show could have been transcendent. You argued that it should have taken a one day approach or just like hyper focused on the characters and sort of the interactions between them. rather than spread over like a wide spanning plot. Right. My issue is that I feel like a focus on the two wrong characters as the leads in the show, as much as Mary and George Villiers are very interesting. And of course, this is based off a book already. Like you can't really change much if you're adapting something. But again, you're also adapting history. And I think historically speaking, the more interesting couple, I mean, and they really were a couple. is King James and and his wife, Anne. Could you imagine that marriage? You know, they're married to each other, but one is gay and the other one needs to sort of deal with it. But they're the kings and queens of England, Scotland, and Ireland at the time.
00:30:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's all about balance. Having Anne play a bigger part would have, I think, been beneficial to the show. She does play a significant part. um She interacts largely with Mary, of course. The mothers do some canoodling on the side, and from what I gather, not in a sexual way. But that said, the character of Anne is important to the show. That said, she does become peripheral at a certain point. Because her function, she's a plot device. She's not a real character. Her function as a character is to give her blessing to be like, you know what? Fine. George Villiers could be James's arm candy for a couple of months, you know, like whatever. Like the interesting thing is that when the show explores it, we see that she's actually really bothered by this, that and it is something she's accepted versus something that she's like, well, you know, this is what I want.
00:31:45
Speaker
And I think, ultimately speaking, that dynamic between having to deal with this uncomfortable situation throughout the entirety of her marriage is actually more interesting than half of what Mary and George do in the course of the show. And these are small moments. I can't stress this enough that the small moments that we see of Anne are really powerful. And she doesn't really interact with James in the show. She just interacts with Mary and she voices her frustrations. Well, she doesn't even voice them. We just know of her frustrations by just the way she's speaking to Mary. But again, I feel like the show, even though like it is good, quote unquote, good in the way it's structured and the way that it's building its characters and even like the premise, it stays true to sort of that historical adaptation quite well. I think the show plays, and this is so weird to say, It plays it a little safe. It goes towards tropes that has already proven to have worked. Again, Tudors being the grand example here. And of course it makes it grungy and it focuses on homosexuality, but it doesn't actually focus on things that could be quite substantially interesting because again, the homosexuality aspect of it wasn't interesting from the George Villiers point of view. It was more interesting from Anne and James. That's my argument here.
00:33:00
Speaker
Yeah, and there is a sense of imbalance to the show that I think it struggles to overcome. And when we start talking in a second about Shogun, I think that is an example of how a drama can find a lot of drama in these small moments. And I think if there is one thing that Shogun does time and time and time again, is that it focuses on these small moments, on these moments of interiority. I mean, the show is entirely interior. And I would say Marion George in contrast is often exterior, and that does obviously limit a lot of the character moments.
00:33:40
Speaker
style over substance. That's all it is. I don't know if that's entirely true because I find Shogun to be an enormously stylish show. But it overcomes, it grounds all of that style and pure substance. That said, the characters of Mary and George are focused on so much that I don't know if that's necessarily an appropriate distillation. I think that while the writing doesn't always hit the nail on the head, it frequently comes very close. And so I would say it is broadly good. And I think calling it style over substance is, I think, distilling it a little too far. Maybe, but it's not necessarily an insult.
00:34:19
Speaker
It's more about, again, it's that whole idea of something elevated versus something that plays to a trope. And I think that Shogun ultimately, it hits a home run each and every time it ups the stakes each and every time it affects characters in tangible and grounded ways each and every time. And it talks about themes that aren't really talked about in other TV shows. not enough, at least Western ones, because we'll talk about that soon. Certainly not. Yeah. And that's what I mean. It has to do with things that we don't generally think about. And because of that, because it at least approaches it in a novel, hu novel way, then there is something to be said that the courses that Shogun gives us are far more substantial than the appetizer or hors d'oeuvres that Mary and George gave me. So we're gonna take a quick break, listen to some music, and then we'll be back to talk all about the show Shogun on Hulu.
00:35:23
Speaker
Hi there, listener. I know you are not hearing music right now. That's because we actually do a legal form of music streaming that you can find exclusively on our homepage, which is Mixcloud. So if you are interested in listening to a playlist that I personally curate for every single episode, then I would highly recommend you take a trip to Mixcloud and finish the episode starting exactly here where you left off and listen to that playlist and then dive into the second half. That said, if you choose not to do so, here's the second half right now.
00:35:56
Speaker
and we're back hope you guys enjoyed that little interlude we are not going to be talking about shogan so that previous show was on stars this one is on hulu now also on disney plus if you have the hulu a off Very confusing time in the world of streaming. Recently, there was a announcement that Max, Disney Plus, and Hulu were going to create some kind of bundle. So now, presumably, you'll be able to watch not only Hulu on your Disney Plus, but you could also be able to watch HBO content on Disney Plus. Pretty cool stuff. How do you feel about the bundling, the new beginning of another age of cable, essentially, on the internet? I mean, the more content you have in one sort of platform, the better, I think, because ultimately, the less mess that it is what has become essentially all these streaming platforms, it's just become sort of a headache, right? Actually, I do wish that the smaller sort of platform, Stars Plus, AMC Plus, Paramount Plus, all of the pluses would just go and be on bundle and they would attach themselves to one of the big giants, which is Disney Plus, Max or Amazon Prime.
00:37:05
Speaker
which they already do in some regards, especially with Amazon Prime and Disney plus with Hulu. But am I totally psyched about it? No. Am I totally happy about it? No. But at the same time, I'm just kind of like whatever is more convenient. It's true. That's at least a step in the right direction. When it comes to Hulu, there's obviously some really cool stuff on the platform stuff. I'm really thrilled about stuff coming this summer. I already mentioned the bear, but only murders in the building is also coming back for another season. These are very much comfort programs, I would say. Now shogun hits that niche in a different regard because I find these historical type shows in specific periods I would say to be really comforting and really enlivening. I find especially stuff in like the feudal or shogun eras in Japan to be really interesting because it's so different from my world and often really based in honor and in code and in ethics and things that are often displaced in American society. And so I find that to be really comforting. Now, in terms of connective tissue between Marion George and Shogun, there is a little bit a similar time period, both early 17th century. Yeah, they both were happening around the same time as each other.
00:38:20
Speaker
Both are based on books. One was a more historically based with Mary and George, something that is essentially just telling the story of Mary and telling the story of George Villiers. Shogun, on the other hand, is explicitly fictionalized and it's part of this series that Clavell did, James Clavell, the writer, an Asian saga where each book is a different period of Asian history and I believe all has a similar kind of tone to it but all in different, obviously, time periods.
00:38:57
Speaker
Yes, but the unique thing about Shogun, and especially when I say Shogun, I mean the book, the fictionalized characters are based off of real people. Their names have just been changed. Their characteristics have been sort of mirrored to their real life counterparts, but very much so each character in the book Shogun is based off of a very real person that inspired it. Right, but allowing the curtain of history. We talked about this in our episode on May, December, the way that they kind of build a curtain of fictionalization around it so that it allows them to explore the characters risk free.
00:39:34
Speaker
Yeah, in a different, more distilled way that actually works for the show. And it's intimate, ultimately. Now, Shogun the book was already turned into a TV miniseries that when I gather was pretty successful in 1980. I will point to the channel Nerdwriter on YouTube. Someday I always tend to move towards when it comes to looking at a piece of media if we are talking about it on our show because he always has something very interesting to say and his view on Shogun particularly was, and you guys should watch this video,
00:40:12
Speaker
that Shogun is a exploration of translation, and his idea of translation goes really, really deep into this show. And it's not something I'm going to really touch on in terms of this particular series, but what is interesting about the original 1980 production was, A, it's well before the age of like streaming television, right? So the budget was a little bit more minimal. Now, that allowed for the interior aspects of the show probably to shine in a way that we we didn't expect it to be a blockbuster-y. Right. And that allows for the adaptation to feel pretty at home because Clouvelle's novel isn't super interested in the like really gung-ho aspects of the time period. Whereas I look at a Shogun related program that we talked about last time, last month, Blue-Eyed Samurai.
00:41:03
Speaker
which is really spectacle heavy. Now, Shogun has spectacle, the new series, but it's very much more so about the interior lives of the characters and the spectacle is just a addition to it. It's stylish, but it is not meant to be style forward. It's very, very, very balanced. But one other thing is that the translation in the original show, they were no subtitle. So they allowed for you to live in Blackthorn's head alone. And that was really interesting. I think at the time, a very artistic choice in a timeframe when TV had just become more and more artistic. As the time progresses, obviously you get stuff like Twin Peaks that really gets artistic. But in 1980, I would say largely people were still looking towards the TV miniseries as a mode of art. Yeah. And when you talk about like Blackthorn, you mean you mean the main character of the book and the adaptation, although it's actually debated. I would debate who the main character is in this adaptation just because I feel like there's three very prominent characters in the show. including Blackthorn. But John Blackthorn is the hero of the book. He is called Anjin. That's his nickname is basically the word foreigner. Yeah, effectively his title in the larger world of Shogun. Yeah. And he's based off of William Adams, like an actual like explorer or sailor who was a Protestant English maritime pilot. And essentially he served the Dutch fleet back at that time. He operates sort of like a freelance sailor and he makes his way all the way to Japan. And like, again, this is based on real history. Japan was almost like a Narnia type place that almost nobody went to because it was so mystical and so far off. But there was also like political reasons as to why almost no one went there, because during that time period, the world was sort of split between two powers, the Spanish and the Portuguese.
00:43:04
Speaker
They were at war with each other during that time. And the Pope one day said, look, I am tired of your squabbles and I'm tired of your arguments. So under my heavenly decree, I will split half of the world to Portuguese influence and half the world to Spanish influence. And again, this is about Catholicism. England was not, you know, partaking in that because they very much created a schism with Protestantism and Catholicism. which is why you know they themselves are like well we want a piece of this cake too so that's where john black dawn sort of represents the larger powers that be in its own way it talks about a very large and very prevalent theme which is colonialism but in a way that deals with the historical context of religion right because back then religion was sort of the way that
00:43:50
Speaker
the Western powers controlled, you know, the East by introducing a form of religion that essentially like inspired the citizens of that country to be more Westernized and to appeal more to the idea of Western power. And by the time that John Blackthorn arrives in a fictionalized but very realistic version of Japan, the court of this city, I believe they arrive in Iru. Yeah, so here's the thing. You talked about like how the show is not epic in scale. I completely agree because most of the show takes place in two locations. I mean, there's a third one that appears in the second half of the show, but very briefly, the two main locations are Osaka Castle.
00:44:33
Speaker
which was the provincial capital of Japan during that time. It's where sort of the regions of Japan sort of had their seat of power. Also, it's really important to mention that Japanese politics of that time, of that era, were very complicated because there was an emperor, there was sort of heavenly mandated king, was the head of religion and stuff like that. He was sort of like the bigger head of Japan. But he had no power. The actual powers that be that decided legislature and sort of dictated military powers and military presence in Japan were essentially these regions. And these regions eventually became one shogun. But that's sort of what this era is talking about. Because it was split between the emperor and these powers that be, these lords, there were multiple seats of power all across Japan.
00:45:22
Speaker
But the seat of power of that time for at least the military and the legislature was the province of Osaka in Osaka City. And the other location we see is Isu, which is essentially like a fishing village where John Blackthorn arrives and that becomes almost like the base of operation. Right that is where most of the drama takes place throughout the show the middle section between I think three two Six seven eight almost a lot of it takes place in this tiny fishing village and that is where the characters kind of begin to interact with each other and there are a couple of key figures there right there is John Blackthorn the foreigner and There are at Osaka Castle, the Portuguese, the Council of Regents, the people who do have a lot of those power, the lords, on particularly one regent member who is the ah villain of the show, Ishido, and on the other side, the presumed hero, not necessarily who I would consider the main character, but the hero of the show, which is Toranaga. So those are kind of the main figureheads that I think we need to discuss in order to really wrangle the show.
00:46:33
Speaker
Now, Tor Naga was, I believe, based on Togugawa. Togugawa. The Shogun Isu Togugawa. And Togugawa was essentially he inherited that power. This era in particular is very interesting in Japanese history. because it came after what was an era of Mayardwood conflict. It was sort of a great unification under Oda Nobunago, who is like a very, very famous Japanese general that created conquests all around Japan. He was assassinated before he came to true power. So here's the thing. This famous Japanese general had a right hand and a left hand.
00:47:11
Speaker
One of them was Tokugawa and the other one was a really famous miss general called Hideyoshi. Hideyoshi actually succeeded Oda Nobunaga as sort of the ruler of Japan. He sort of is the human being that inspires the Taiko of the show, like the predecessor to these regions, because his death creates like a big power vacuum of like, all right, who's going to actually take over Japan while the regions are trying to stabilize that power vacuum? And the reason why it creates like a lot of interesting conflict in the show is that these regions are afraid of Toranaga, who's based on the historical Tegagawa, because, you know, he had a direct relation to the Taiko and to Oda Nobunaga, meaning he has the greatest ability to actually succeed them and be like the new Shogun, which would be essentially like the military dictator of Japan.
00:48:03
Speaker
Right. And we open in the show with the Council of Regents all kind of effectively moving against Toranaga as the fictionalized version of Tokugawa, because his power is such a way that it appears to be that he will in fact take charge. Now at the beginning of the show, he explicitly says to this council that he is not interested in doing so and that he is, you know, but there is a lot of plans within a plan with him. I watched The Godfather with my girlfriend recently as I was watching Shogun. And I can see a little bit of Marco Corleone in Toranaga's process because you of the way in which he operates as his figurehead. But his relationship to the Council of Regents is a really interesting one and obviously this power vacuum is one of the most unique parts of history because there are all of these various people trying to jockey for power. and In the show, it's sort of implicated that Ishido is the one who controls this council, and Ishido is a proxy for a man named Mitsunari, who is supposedly a commander of the Western Army.
00:49:17
Speaker
military commander of the late Sengoku period. These are not things that I'm particularly fluent in. He had the strongest military, essentially. He had the strongest military of that time period. So theoretically, he had the most power. He also garrisoned Osaka Castle. So he had direct control there because most of his troops were there. The regions, of course, had their own sort of garrisons around the city. So they too had power. right But realistically, the person who was the person in charge of Osaka Castle was Ishido, and his real world counterpart. Which is why it feels, at least in the space of Osaka Castle, that he is the person in charge. Even though, as you mentioned, the other council members technically have the same amount of power he does.
00:50:01
Speaker
And it's not just that. It's not that that each sort of regent is vying for power. There's also the idea that there is religion vying for power. You know, Ishido and Turinaga are both ah people who are Buddhists in this world, whereas the other members of the council are not. They are Catholic. Right. And Catholic because there is another power that is attempting control. And obviously we all know history, right? I don't think it's spoiler on the show to say that the um Portuguese do not succeed. That nonetheless, they do attempt to set up these places around temples effectively, right? Around Japan that could be- Churches. Right? They're churches.
00:50:44
Speaker
powerhouses that can ultimately be used for good or ill. Ultimately, of course, Japan is one of the few Asiatic countries to be relatively unfazed by colonialism. And thank goodness for that. It obviously bred a really beautiful and continually vibrant culture as the centuries have gone on. I do want to also touch base now obviously we've talked in more detail this episode about what we were talking about last episode which was the shogunate period which is where blue-eyed samurai takes place now as sort of the resident historian here is blue-eyed samurai prior to this period would you say or after this post
00:51:23
Speaker
So in Blue-Eyed Samurai, the show culminates to the capital of Japan of that period, which is Edo. The person who owns Edo in Shogun is Torunaga, but obviously he is not Shogun yet. So Edo is not the capital yet. Osaka is. But this is actually the turning point where it transitions from the seat of power being Osaka to Edo. And that sort of essentially like decides the next 200 to 300 years. And we'll I think we'll probably touch in on Edo's place in this show as time moves on, because, as you mentioned, in this season, we are not in Edo. We are predominantly in this small fishing of easy, which I really want to go deeper on right now, because there is a sense that especially Torinaga as a character, because I think it's really important to say that everybody treats him like a threat.
00:52:16
Speaker
But when we see him, he's an unassuming small man who constantly says, you know what? I don't want conflict. I just want to live my life. You guys are just paranoid. Everything is fine. But he is a man who casts a very, very, very large shadow that affects. every single character in this show. And the reason I say that is because it was strategic not to show Edo at all. It was strategic to just show Izu because Izu plays to the idea that he is the underdog here, that he is the true hero of the show in the sense that everything is stacked up against him. And the great power of Osaka is the actual thing that casts a very large and dangerous shadow.
00:53:00
Speaker
But that, as we will talk about later, is not necessarily the case, which is what makes Shogun truly, truly brilliant, in my opinion. Absolutely true. I love that despite the fact that the show continually harps upon the fact that this man is humble, that he you know exudes this sort of honor and humility that he is then cast as Hiroyuki Sonata, who I want to ah give you space because prior to us recording you, when you sat down, you were like, Hiroyuki Sonata, right? And I was like, oh, oh, the yes, the actor. Sure.
00:53:37
Speaker
um He's not an an actor I'm particularly familiar with but I mean his presence is obviously one that ah holds a lot of space. I mean in the previous section we were talking about the main character of Marion George, George played by a relatively young upcoming actor who has not yet been able to really hit his stride, I would say. Hiroyuki Sonata on the other hand is So magnanimous and has such a wide shadow the cast across the show I mean an actor like that is not someone you can easily find do you know much about sonata's previous? Oh my god, of course He's one of the most prophilic Japanese actors working in Hollywood today I mean his first big thing in the West was the last samurai starring ah Tom Cruise.
00:54:22
Speaker
But he's also been in The Wolverine. He's been in Avengers Endgame. He's been in Army of the Dead, Bullet Train, and John Wick. He's been in the show Lost, which is one of your you know defining shows of your teenage years. Well, sure. But the interesting thing about Iriuki Sonata is that he is usually typecast as playing villainous roles. And here you said it yourself, he's playing a character that is very much laced in the idea of honor and humbleness. And I think that's what makes the casting so brilliant because you need a sort of actor that is able to pull off something that's really subdued, but something that is so overwhelming in terms of presence because he has that presence as an actor.
00:55:06
Speaker
He's able to, even though he seems unassuming, he almost overwhelms every other actor in his space by how talented he is as an actor, what we would call stage presence. Not stage presence when he's able to turn it on. It is so overwhelming and so intimidating that it makes sense why every character, and I mean every single character, is afraid of him. Well, and you mentioned that he's kind of a Hollywood that guy, right? Oh, hey, that guy, that guy from Avengers, that guy from the Wolverine, that guy from 47 Ronin. I mean, he's not, you know, necessarily like huge. right in these TV shows there are much larger characters but I look at his CV and it looks pretty similar to someone who became obviously a Hollywood A-list or Jackie Chan. I mean Jackie Chan Adventures was a score of my childhood years but similarly started in Hong Kong action and then sort of moved his way into America but I'm sure probably did some back and forth and that appears to be Sonata's main sort of focus is that he began as presumably a star in Hong Kong and then moved here to America, did some smaller roles, but now appears to be back in the limelight here as Toranaga.
00:56:22
Speaker
That's the thing, even in the small roles that he got in those A-list Hollywood movies, they were always really particular roles. He was always picked to be like an intimidating and villainous sort of role, especially like I keep thinking about like Avengers Endgame. He appears for like less than five minutes, but he's like a villain in those five minutes. He is like a villain that is being hunted down by Jeremy Renner's Hawkeye character. But the same could be said about his very short role in the show, Lost, He appears as like this wise man who's trying to lead the characters through the final season. That's at least my memory of it. The point is he appears on that other ah end of the spectrum where he's this unassuming guy who has a bunch of wisdom and there is something magnanimous about him that is just underneath the surface. He's an actor that has a very, very specific skill set. And it's only built because of his resume as an actor who's being specifically picked for roles, but very important roles.
00:57:19
Speaker
throughout, like, these big movies. Now, in the same way that he is, you know, this amazing actor that finally is getting the deserved praise, despite the fact that he has been a Hollywood that guy. I mean, you could certainly say that everything everywhere all at once has propelled certain actors that have been previously obviously well-known but understated into a new phase of their career in a time when it could be their twilight years. right On the other hand, the other character that could be considered one of the three main of the show, Cosmo Jarvis, is like a ah Hollywood what guy? yeah you know like He comes into the show and it immediately has the exact same level of presence, of eye-catchingness. You immediately know him and everybody else in the frame. you know He shows up, I think, 15, 20, 30 minutes into the show. And when he starts speaking, your ears perk up.
00:58:15
Speaker
Yeah. And I look at his CV and I go, oh, well, there's a couple of things here, none of which I've seen. Persuasion, the I believe Netflix persuasion with Dakota Johnson, Lady Macbeth, which was, I believe, well reviewed at the time, but a Florence P. movie that I have not touched on. And obviously now possibly going to win an Emmy as Blackthorn in Shogun. He is very much the character we focus on. throughout most of the show. Like, he appears in the first minute, realistically, because the show starts off him wandering aimlessly in the waters of Japan, looking for Japan. And he's very much like, oh, you know, I am an explorer, I'm a sailor, I am here to find this mystical island of Japan, whereas all the other sailors are sort of like,
00:59:03
Speaker
given up hope and very quickly he's absorbed into this world that takes a lot of energy on the part of an actor to carry all of that transition like a weak actor wouldn't be able to do that he has to also carry a big presence because he's the also really the only white person we see in this show and marketed largely to an anglic audience yeah despite the fact and What a brave movement to make in Hollywood, a world that is currently propelled into this death spiral of IP that they have decided to go for this drama series that is so reliant on us looking at subtitles, which is something that largely American audiences have spoken against. I mean, a lot of people, they find that subtitles are just a no go for them. But that's the thing, I think it really works in the sense that the YouTube source you pointed out earlier, he mentioned that the show bravely tackles the idea of translation being sort of a dialogue of power. The characters don't really understand each other. Realistically, they're not speaking English and Japanese, they're speaking Portuguese and Japanese, right? The English that they're speaking is actually not English. It's supposed to be Portuguese. Yeah, it's supposed to be Portuguese. But the point I'm trying to make is that there is sort of a power dynamic because of these translations that there is a bridging and effort that needs to be made. So that's actually part of the drama. So the subtitles operate in a sense that you look at the subtitles because it demands to be looked at because it's actually part of not only the style or the intricacies of the drama that's being done in the show, but it's just sort of a way to deepen character because one of the main characters of the show is a translator. She is the intermediary between this big Japanese lord, Torinaga, and this sailor from England, Jack Blackthorn, or John Blackthorn, sorry.
01:01:01
Speaker
Right. And before you go on, it is also really important to state. I feel like it's a trend that's been happening with with a bunch of other sort of IP and the movie Prey, which was also Hulu. Right. That is a movie that dealt with Native Americans. Right. And most of it deals with a Native American language. You know, like you can watch the movie in English if you choose, but it's actually recommended to watch the movie with the Native American language and watch it in subtitles because again, it deals directly with the themes and the style of the movie. And a similar thing can be said about Hyvalarian in the show Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon. Fake language, but it's used as a way to develop character. It goes beyond just the use of like, hey, these are subtitles, read them because you're listening to a different language. No, linguistics are one of the most and important things in storytelling. They're the vehicles of storytelling. So it comes to mind that when we discuss these vehicles of storytelling, that it's truly a way to understand how characters are bridged with each other. And this show, Shogun, explores that to a T. Because without that bridge, the characters would not be able to understand each other, interact with each other, and more importantly, work together towards their goals. And the tiny drama that comes with little misunderstandings is a key aspect to the continual propulsion of the show. because the moment that a character truly understands another character, there is this sense of kinship right in the moments when they're able to transcend language and really be able to understand who each other are, whether that understanding is rage, whether that understanding is, you know, because there is the husband of Mariko who has a moment of connection with Blackthorn at a certain aspect of the show that I would say transcends language. Certainly Blackthorn has that connection with both Mariko and with Toranaga throughout the show as well, where they have this level of respect, have this level of understanding.
01:03:15
Speaker
And it's a ah level of understanding and humanity that transcends language. And that is a moment of the show that is so obviously human, but also it's hard to find in any TV show, in any piece of entertainment. yeah And the fact that they're able to do it, even with the 10 episodes, is such a testament to how thoughtful and how well crafted this production is. And I also want to mention that even though a lot of the show is so internal, in the first three episodes, you get like water. I mean, we've talked time and time again about how expensive it is back when we did our episode on One Piece, where we talked about how expensive it is to shoot on the sea. And in episode three, there is this
01:04:00
Speaker
huge action set piece set on the sea. And it's a moment for me to look at this show and I'm like, oh, the fact that maybe Disney and and Fox and all of these companies end up buying each other out. Like, yes, it from a perspective of like the good of art long term, maybe it can be a little problematic. But I look at the way that it allows for a show like Shogun to be financed. I'm at a loss for words. I have to be like go Disney a little bit here. And I agree. I mean, there is like really beautiful spectacle in Shogun, even though most of what's in Shogun is CGI, because it's not actually like it's not real life locations. Most of it's mostly set pieces. But I will say this, that you're absolutely right when you say that. The true power of Shogun is in its small moments and in sort of the intricacies of the dialogue between two characters, right? Because these characters don't trust each other. They're very much saying to themselves and to other characters, we are using each other to further our own means. They're very honest about that.
01:05:02
Speaker
But in the small moments where they're able to truly come together and treat each other as human beings rather than tools, those are the most powerful moments in the show. One of my favorite moments is when John Blackthorn teaches Torinaga how to swim. You know, it's such like a human moment where this great lord of Japan and this sailor from England become on the same level. They become on the same level with each other, without the power, without anything. And they just become human and they just become friends, quote unquote, friends. And they're just swimming together. And in ah any other show, that would be an afterthought. But because of how Shogun is built, those moments are triumphs. They're the true moments of the show because they humanize characters, really people in any other show could be treated as cogs in a much larger plot.
01:05:48
Speaker
especially in a show like this, because it positions itself to be a historical epic because it's based off a very important time period in Japan that there was a lot of conflict and a lot of sort of political maneuvering that changed the whole like structure of a nation. But, you know, even though Shogun is interested in portraying that, it's not interested in propping that up to sometimes it's detriment, especially in that last episode. Let's be real here. But the pros far outweigh the cons because at the end of the day, A story is not a story without character. I have to say before we talk about these final episodes, I totally agree with you. And furthermore, that the small characters, the people who are on the periphery of this story have so many wonderful B plots and machinations and they all have their own agendas and they all have their own opinions on different characters. And I feel broadly that I was focused on the main three. Mariko, Torinaga, and Blackthorn. So, consequently, I feel like I missed some of the show, and I could watch this at least one more time. I mean, I can say definitively that I would like to be able to go back on the show and watch it all from top to bottom one more time. I wish I had done so before we did this podcast, to be honest, because I would have that much more understanding, I think, of sort of the nuances of this show that I feel I've been so overwhelmed with the emotion of watching it for the first time that it's hard for me to really look at it critically. As of right now, I'd say this is my favorite show of the year, and that's my main cognate on it. Now, in terms of the final of the three characters, Mariko, I do want to talk about her, but mainly from the vantage point of having watched the entire show. So that said, if you want to lead us in, feel free. Absolutely, because we talked about earlier the translator, the intermediary, the bridge. That bridge is Miriko, the character of Miriko played by Anna Sawai, who is also like an incredible rising star in the show. In fact, I would argue she is the true breakout star of this show because you have these two men vying and using each other for power with John Blackthorn and Turinaga.
01:08:01
Speaker
And in between them, the only way they can communicate with each other is this woman who's very much drowned by the powers that be, not only in her life, but also in her past, because obviously, like she has been a political tool for a very, very long time. Most a women of that period who were born in an aristocrat family in Japan were used for political means such as marriage. But with Mirako, it's especially like important. The background of Mirako is that essentially her family has been disgraced. They've been disgraced and because of that disgrace, she is a woman without honor. And she has to carry that shame for the rest of her life. That disgrace and that shame sort of drives her throughout the entire show. It drives her wants and it drives her needs.
01:08:46
Speaker
And the interesting thing is that because she answers to both these men, both Turinaga and Blackthorn, she has to juggle sort of the power dynamics between them and herself, which makes her de facto the most interesting character in the show. And I'm going to give a spoiler warning moving forward. I'm going to be talking about her as sort of a broad scope character, and I wanted to be able to set down this take by also giving direct pieces of information here. So spoiler warning ahead. I also think she's the most important person of the show. I think she's ultimately the bridge between these two characters. I don't know if this is sacrilege here. If Toronaga is the father and Blackthorn is the son, Mariko is kind of the Holy Ghost. And effectively, she is, quite literally, because she is, her character motivation is from the beginning, that she wants to die gracefully with honor.
01:09:42
Speaker
And that is something that a lot of characters in the show also have a sentiment towards. There is an aspect in the later half of the show where Blackthorn puts a bird on his front stoop and lets it rot. And the gardener, wanting to die honorably, takes on a phyric, ultimately, death because Blackthorn, in his power as Anjan, He says to some ladies, he says, if anybody touches this bird, they die in broken Japanese and then goes off and does his own thing. Not realizing that what he has just done is condemned someone to death long term. And episodes later, the gardener takes the bird off and thus is sacrificed.
01:10:22
Speaker
dying honorably. And of course, Blackthorn is devastated, but part of the disconnect between the American audiences and the Japanese audience is that the honor in this period is in death by meaning, death by purpose. And so ultimately, that is Mariko's fate, too. Mariko comes back to Osaka Castle, and there's this huge plot, right? The plot of Crimson Sky. But Crimson Sky is simply Moriko ultimately doing the thing that she has set out from the beginning of the show, which is to die honorably.
01:10:55
Speaker
ah to serve as aac really to for the machinations of something larger than herself but there is a term and and japanese culture called sepuu which is honorable and it's Essentially, it's a two-way process of suicide. The person committing suicide has to stick a knife in their belly and slit their belly open, but then their second, the person standing over them, needs to cut off their head so they don't die suffering. The first half of that process does not lead to a very comfortable death. But the point is is that people can condemn very easily in this world other people to seppuku. In fact, there are multiple times where the powers that be threaten seppuku against various other characters, And the characters just comply and they usually comply because honor in this world is the most important thing possible. And Japanese honor has been, I don't want to say a trope, but something that has been explored through various media. They explored it in Blue-Eyed Samurai and we touched on it. My favorite exploration of Japanese honor is of course Akira Kurosawa's Rashomon.
01:11:56
Speaker
I would say that broadly, this show takes Kurosawa and really brings it into a different medium, into a different age. I think it takes Shogun as a piece of literature and makes it as Kurosawa as possible in 2024. And that is obviously a huge compliment. because Kurosawa is such an auteur, such a master, one of the 10 best film directors in the medium since its inception. Yeah, goat, pure goat. If Rashomon was a deconstruction of honor, realistically speaking, Shogun becomes that. It doesn't start off as that, but it becomes that. And that's the true triumph of the show. There's so much unassuming things that only start clicking really after the small moments happen.
01:12:44
Speaker
Not the big moments, but the small moments, because there are a lot of a big moments in the show, like Mirako going to a Saga castle to commit to this plot where she has to serve as sort of like a sacrifice takes multiple turns. There was a moment where she's very much like, all right, I'm coming here to die. But then there's another moment where she's like, well, maybe I don't really want to die. Maybe I actually want to live. Well, because she falls in love with Blackthorn. That's one of the parts of the show we've been tiptoaming around, which is that Blackthorn and Murico have a romance that it takes the whole season, the whole show to culminate towards. And obviously Roblox in the way there as well. I think the drama is beautifully calibrated. as opposed to Marion George, which often really escalates it. It really spikes drama as frequently and as severely as possible. Shogun takes its time and builds and builds and builds. And I thought a million times that Blackthorn and Mariko were in the perfect place to finally begin their romance, but it's only at the very, very last moments.
01:13:49
Speaker
that it even starts to glimmer as a possibility in the show. And then, of course, Mariko serves her final purpose and dies effectively to save Blackthorn in a moment of true sacrifice. Yeah. Even though that set piece was very large, there was like a spectacle around it, right? It was the small moment that dictated everything. And also was in episode nine, yeah which brings us to the final point, which is episode 10 in our American brains gives promise to what Blue Eyed Samurai had, which was this epic showdown. Now, I'm not going to go to it in detail there in case people are listening to this episode on its own. But Blue Eyed Samurai gives you a lot of that cinematic release. Yeah. And Blue Eyed Samurai and Shogun could not be more dislike. because Shogun in the final episode is small and as intimate as any episode in the fishing village in the past. The only difference is it predominantly takes place out of Sokka Castle where Torinaga returns as sort of the final moment of the show, right? Yeah, in the last like couple of seconds, not even minutes, 90% of Episode 10 is an easy, as you said, and it's very much focused on sort of giving the idea that they're building up the forces, they're they're getting their their morale back, they're about to strike back.
01:15:08
Speaker
but without any of us really realizing that they had already won, because no character other than Turinaga knows that they've already won. And there is a statement to that. And there is sort of an argument to be made that it's never been about the power of the sword, but the power of the mind, right? Because ultimately, Turinaga won without really causing any bloodshed. And that was the whole point other than the sacrifices he had to make to get to the place of power he wanted. I mean, you could consider his sacrifice of his own manifestively triage because they are small ah sacrifices done from a place of honor, from a place of seppuku, sometimes literally, you know, the literal act of seppuku with the first and the second, but then also America's sacrifice being a more unusual one. All of that being these
01:15:55
Speaker
very often intimate moments of sacrifice that do not require any armies, any bloodshed, any real act of force. I mean, Blue Eyed Samurai has a visual spectacle in its finale and Shogun does not. No, and I think that's what made a lot of people angry and I can understand that anger. But at the same time, what we do get is something a lot more frightening than a big epic showdown. It's the reveal that the heroes of the story was actually one of the biggest villains all along. But again, it's mired in a lot of great areas. Right? Because you could say like, okay, he saw that the ends justify the means. He sacrificed a few of his own men and women to make sure that there wasn't going to be bloodshed. But realistically, he even says like, I just want to be powerful. I know how powerful I am. I just want to be more powerful. It's what I want.
01:16:50
Speaker
I mean, I see a lot of, like I said, Michael Corleone in there. He has plans on top of plans on top of plans that it takes the entire season to really come to terms with. I mean, when I think of the moment of like true manipulation is in the final moments of the show, he reveals that Blackthorn was in his lap from the beginning because he himself ensured that Blackthorn did not have means to escape. He destroyed his ship yeah and continued to promise Blackthorn that his ship was incoming just after another thing, just after another thing, but there was no ship to come back to. And that speaks largely to his entire plot from the beginning, which is that he continued to speak towards a secondary truth, effectively a fiction, that never existed in the first place. And his goal was always something in the periphery of the show, but that you could feel, even if you didn't totally see from the beginning.
01:17:44
Speaker
Even though there is that greater machination, that Machiavellian mindset, right? There is the root of being human. Turinaga admits when he's telling, you know, why he did what he did to Blackthorn, he says, I could have easily made sure he was dead because I eventually didn't need him anymore. But the only reason I kept him alive is because he makes me laugh, which is such a weird, powerful, like wholesome, but also gross thing to say all at once, because you can in the most optimistic way, you can be like, all right, he respects him as his friend.
01:18:17
Speaker
But realistically, he treats him like his pets and both things can be true at once. And that's how complicated the character of Torinaga is to be revealed in that last episode, because it's so important to mention once and for all that he's not an underdog in this story at all. The beginning of the show tells you who he is. And then throughout the show, we're led to believe he's someone different. yeah And by the end of the show, of course, it is revealed once again that he is, in fact, just as Machiavellian as he might have appeared at first, yeah right? He shows up to the court and the first thing he says is essentially, I am not a crook. I am a crook.
01:18:54
Speaker
He has done this exact thing already, right? He has the error, right? In his possession, effectively, a young boy that he is, I mean, we see him and the boy seems happy and safe, but at the same time, you know, he does a little- He's a political hostage. He has a turn of phrase, which is so wonderful at the top of the show, which he says, one of the first lines, he is no more a prisoner than I am here, which is, of course, a joke because he is he is, in fact, a prisoner in front of the council, just as much as the young boy is a prisoner in his own captivity. Talking about broader influences. You mentioned the samurai stories of Kurosawa, but I think it's also important to note that this comes from a long lineage of samurai stories that have existed in Japan throughout not only cinematic history, but prior. I mean, there is a obviously huge lineage of theater in Japan. This is something that is covered in, I believe, episode six of Shogun as well, wherein what a beautiful episode, by the way, where we get the backstory of Mariko, which we should chat on as well. This is where we learn about the disgrace of her family. Yeah. So basically, Mariko's father was the assassin of the fictionalized equivalent of Odo Nobunaga, the person we mentioned at the top of this.
01:20:14
Speaker
Oda Nobunaga was essentially like Julius Caesar. He was primed to be the ruler of Japan, and the Shogun of Japan. But before he reached power, he was assassinated. Mariko's father is the character that murdered sort of this world, Oda Nobunaga. And because, you know, it was a disgraceful act of betrayal, she has been marked for life with shame. And Turinaga uses that shame to the best of his ability to essentially get what he wants from her. But on the other turn of that, it also causes her to turn to religion, to Catholicism. And that's also what brings her and Blackthorn together, not only as a translator and a person she's translating for, but also as we touched on a more romantic thing because they are both able to understand each other beyond just the Portuguese words they say to each other.
01:21:01
Speaker
But broadly speaking, I did want to touch on that point, which is that her shame comes from something very specific and from something that was very historical that we touched on earlier. But obviously we didn't want to get too in deep on that before we made our spoiler warning due to the fact that it is. obviously something that directly correlates to the shame that she feels and thus her reason for existing which is to be a sacrifice or a torinaga and lead her into the sacrifice that begins this war which brings me to a final point which is just before we started recording this podcast there was a a little bit of rumblings on whether or not this series finale was in fact just that
01:21:41
Speaker
because this was originally greenlit as sort of a
Shogun Series Finale and Future Plans
01:21:45
Speaker
contained story. This is the end of the book. The original book that was written, Shogun, ends just how the series ended, and yet it doesn't really feel like an ending. Now it has been revealed that Hulu has ah kind of given it a carte blanche greenlight. for second and a third season, they have brought the actor who plays Toronaga back for these two seasons and that they can effectively finish the story. Now, there is a small epilogue that does hint to what might be in the future, which is the moment when Toronaga does finally take power and does effectively become the Shogun. And I wanted to get your reactions on that. Are you I mean, I'm excited about future seasons of show. Me too. It's going to be a tough one, though, because of the way in which I think this is so literary and reliant on the literary aspects. And I do have a few concerns about how they are going to. I mean, I think because they have such an intimate knowledge of these characters, it's likely that it's going to be really interesting. But I'm interested in how Blackthorn fits into this. I'm interested in how they're going to bring in new characters because they're going to have to create new characters completely from scratch. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is a danger. And I think it's not just the epilogue. It's also the prologue. Don't forget that we start the episode with seeing how the future of Blackthorn, which in itself is quite interesting.
01:23:11
Speaker
Because realistically, he might not be in Japan anymore. But the thing I'm gonna say about that is you're right. They don't have any more literary sort of material to work from, so they'll have to turn to actual historical references. like True historical references of the Togugawa era. How it started, where it led to, etc, etc, etc. Because realistically, that's the only thing they can do. But it would be really ironic if the second season starts with that big battle, if we see some kind of big battle or whatever, some kind of spectacle to appease the fans of season one and their unhappiness with the finale. but That's what I mean. I don't know what they're going to do. And it does scare me. It's about truly trusting the characters that they've built and moving them beyond the literary material that they've had. But it's in one way exciting because it gives creative freedom. And, you know, if they do it right, it could be a continuation of something that's already the best show that we've seen in 2024 for both of us. But there is sort of finagling because I know you wanted to talk about the Emmys and this is not the first time this thing
Debating Emmy Categories for Shogun
01:24:11
Speaker
has happened.
01:24:11
Speaker
Right. The back and forth. Is it going to be in the drama category? Something that is obviously very prestigious, very in vogue and incredibly competitive versus the much more tame limited series category, which we all believed that Shogun was going to play in and went. Yes, and win. But there is the other part of it, which is that in some way there is talk about honor. There is a shame to putting something in a limited series category. We just saw it with beef. They put it in a limited series category. It wins the limited series category. And then days later, they greenlight another season of the show.
01:24:50
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And this is not the first time it's happened. It's happened famously with Big Little Lies and White Lotus. Shows that have done this just to win the award and then switch to be like, well, you know, like this is so successful. We just decided after the award season to announce in green lit multiple seasons. And again, I understand the point of that. It's all like we've talked about this award politics. That's what it is. But at the end of the day, you know, awards are meaningless as long as ah more content and good content is being brought out. I'm not going to complain. I think that there is a meaning to awards, but I think largely the meaning of the award is that the creatives who win that award feel a little bit of that pressure.
01:25:33
Speaker
And sometimes people do cave under pressure. That does happen. But in general, I think that the award does give the studio a idea that they need to continue to pump resources into a show. And I've seen the way in which a show has continued to be successful and not trip on itself.
Awards' Influence on Show Success
01:25:52
Speaker
by continuing to win awards. I mean, I see it with Gene Smart continues to be a highlight on the Emmy comedy lead category and Hacks continues to perform well. It continues to be right at the edge of the Emmy window this year. And similarly, the Bear continues to be in our consciousness every single year and continues to be doing exactly what it's done because it is continually winning the comedy award. And so
01:26:22
Speaker
Which is insane. I think that, yeah, well, and that's a whole nother bag of worms, whether or not it really deserves to be a comedy, if it really should be a drama. That said, it's more fuzzy than ever. I mean, succession is certainly as comedic as the bear. That said, I would say that at least Shogun has a very clear genre convention. It is very clearly going to be in the drama category. There is really no if ands or buts about it. It being in an Emmy category and possibly winning that category does, I think, show to Disney Hulu conglomerate that there is some good to the show and that there is a worthiness and pumping resources into this risky production and thus that they can continue to take risks on IP that is not otherwise things like I mean you see it in the periphery Continually things that are on the smaller streamers like I mean you could talk about Mary and George which is something obviously that is very safely in the same realm as tutors or Bridgerton, but then there's stuff that is really like IP IP and like Ted on Peacock. Similarly, there's the show Knuckles that just came out. There is Apple TV doing a Monsterverse show. You know, there are a lot of these big budget TV shows that are ultimately very safe and do trend towards the IP machine that we continue to ah struggle against and that I want to largely on this podcast
01:27:51
Speaker
move away from because there are so many beautiful and interesting films and TV shows that continue to push the medium forward.
Diverse Cultural Storytelling's Impact
01:28:00
Speaker
I mean, as I mentioned at the top of the show, me and my girlfriend have been watching the Gerard Carmichael show, which is, I think, really progressive, really interesting, may or may not contain Bo Burnham wearing a mask. There's a lot of good TV on right now. And around this time last year, you and I were worried about the end of peak TV. And while I think that there are some smaller underdogs in this world of peak TV, I'm really happy to say that I think Shogun signifies that there is a new king in town. Yeah. And I think it's really important to say that the projects that came before it like recently came before it allowed it to run, allowed it to be what it is. We talked about like how it's not just about pushing the envelope anymore. It's about just diversifying storytelling and not just for the sake of diversity, but just exploring new ways of storytelling from different cultures and being confident that we could do that. I mean, again, the show beef and the movie, everything everywhere, all at once were both Asian centric stories.
01:29:01
Speaker
that were very self contained within the United States, right? Because it talked about immigrants. Because those shows walked and were successful, a show like Shogun can run and explode into the massive success that it is right now. And moving into our summer season, as I mentioned, we have ton of great, great, whether it's TV, whether it's movies that we're going to be covering this season on zeitgeist. So we have had a really great trifecta here, combining the samurai story in Shogun and in Blue Eye Samurai with, as I mentioned, way earlier in the year. We talked about May, December on Netflix coming in with another great Julianne Moore performance with Marion George. I think this is a great way to round out this season as we move into the um summer movie and summer TV season. Absolutely. Because there's some really good stuff there too. So until that time, we'll be doing what we do.
Conclusion and Teaser for Next Episodes
01:29:59
Speaker
I've been Jordan Conrad. And I'm Nievel Boz. And we've been zeitgeist. Thank you guys so, so much for listening. Make sure that you guys do tune in next time, a little hint at what is yet to come
01:30:12
Speaker
I believe the next one I have on our schedule is going to be us talking about Glenn Powell in a couple of roles coming up in this summer movie season with Hitman on Netflix and Twisters, which is going to be in movie theaters in the peak of summer movie season. So make sure to tune in for that. We might have a couple of things in and around that area as well that we might touch on here, there, and everywhere. But until then, make sure that you guys are reviewing our podcast. If you do have the option on either Apple or on Spotify, if you're able to do so, make sure you're telling a friend or two. If you do know someone who is a movie geek and would really enjoy this show, um we'd love to be able to continue to grow our audience. So thank you guys once again. Keep thinking critically and we'll see you again soon.