Transcript
Speaker: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Family Convo Flow podcast. I'm your host, Julie Marie, and we're very happy to have you all here listening today. i have a very special guest today that is...
Speaker: very near and dear to my heart. And we will get into that in just a moment. But I just want to remind everyone that if you have any specific questions you would like answered on the podcast, you can visit us at www.familycomflow.org and reach out to us on our contact page. You can remain remain anonymous there. Or if you just want to use your first name and we can answer your question here on the podcast.
Speaker: Additionally, we have been talking more about our services and helping people heal or reconnect or both from family estrangements, having dual dynamic shifts, whether that's in a marriage or romantic partnership, whether that is a sibling dynamic, a parent and adult child dynamic, or your entire family just needs a group shift.
Speaker: as well as our single clients who are looking to shift into healthier dating patterns and receive education on how to have a healthy partnership going forward. So when they meet their person, they kind of just walk, not only walk into the sunset together, but um can, you know, just walk into growing that those healthy dynamics for themselves and in their relationship and if they want to have children, you know, just passing that along to them as well.
Speaker: So who do I have here today but my spouse, my life partner, my husband, who I have already spoken about on the podcast so much. He is the musician in on the podcast he plays the he's the the intro and the outro in our podcast and the father of my children and just a wonderful beautiful beaming light in my life and best friend so hello ray how are you doing i'm doing well thank you for having me that was that was quite the intro too it's like wow you know but no i really appreciate that no it's great to finally be on
Speaker: Oh, honey, I'm glad. i know. I feel like, we well, we've done this before when we originally started Family Con Flow, but then i feel like we should have a podcast on this, but then we unexpectedly got pregnant with our second kid, which was such a blessing.
Speaker: However, um I get very sick in pregnancy. i get um like a low level hyperemesis. So I am in bed for the six first six months of my pregnancy. And ah yeah, and you were essentially a single parent of a three-year-old and a like sick partner.
Speaker: I was, yeah. but But like you said, obviously worth it. But yes, it was very rough and very hard. And I'm sure, like you said, we'll we'll probably get into some some of that in in a future podcast. For sure, yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's it's an important important thing to talk about, especially with like dynamics in caregiving, like the flow of caregiving in a family.
Speaker: um i think that that's that would be huge. But yes, so we did have a couple podcasts, you and me. But i think that i don't think they we ever even... put them out there because I was like down for the count for six months. And then I did have some clients my third trimester.
Speaker: And then for the first year of postpartum, we decided ah just a kind of shelf family comp flow for a little while, but, but we're here. This is happening.
Speaker: We're back. Okay. So first and foremost, I was just wondering, like before we get into some, some deep shit, um, do you want to tell us a little bit about who you are and kind of, you know, what you do and things that, you know, kind of make you light up. And then eventually like, you know, you kind of got into your own healing modalities, um And then that also led you to also kind of find your own studies in family dynamics. Or I guess I could maybe just say that maybe that was only just because you were married to me, but maybe maybe not. I want to i want to hear here yeah how you kind of got here.
Speaker: Yeah. So again, obviously, um I'm Ray. I'm Julie's husband and life partner. And ah I think the the the big thing you know for me, again, is Yes, again, like there has been, you know, a journey for myself, a journey for you.
Speaker: You know, I think... It's just so hard to wrap your your arms around all of it and just say, like, where did it start? Where did it come from? and i know we talk a lot outside the you know outside of this podcast. And every time we're having one of those conversations, you always say, you know what? We should be podcasting about this. And you're usually right. that that would you know So it's like, finally, let's just get this you know get this going. But I know, you know, like, we...
Speaker: How anyone starts their journey again, you know you know, we've been married for what, almost nine years now, and we've known each other you know longer than that. But it just seemed like, you know, there are milestones in all of our lives. And I think marriage was one, but I think the big one for me more so was when we had our first kid.
Speaker: And that was kind of the big, we'll say the big moment that things were not how I thought they were. And, you know, you can always you you dream about, oh we're going to have kids and it's going to be this and it's going to be that. And it's great. Well, also, when you have a child in the pandemic, that also changes some things as well. But even if it wasn't in the pandemic, I still think it is.
Speaker: showed things that were not how I always thought they were. You know, I don't want to say it was a pipe dream or some, you know, I don't know, utopian, oh look, it's just, you know, everyone's happy and like everybody's sleeping and everybody's, you know, and, you know, we'll have maximum support. sleep Yeah, right. as it's It's just silly. but but i But I think it's like, what I think that exposed for me, again, the,
Speaker: you know, when we talk about like families of origin and actually just having support and, you know, you think like, oh, my parents, you know, I've, I've known them forever and this and that. And it just kind of, when we had our first kid, it definitely showed, I guess we'll say a different side of, of the family and, you know, expose things that like I had never seen, but we'd never been in a situation like that where, you know,
Speaker: There were expectations put on just actually all of us. Different members of the family. Yeah. Right. Everyone. Yeah. Go ahead. No, no. Just everyone had... There was different expectations put on me, put on you, and also put on our on our daughter. And that was kind of the...
Speaker: you know it was kind of like, the we'll call it like the eye-opening moment. um And obviously with everything that, you know with the pregnancy and obviously you know the first pregnancy was also hard, but it really forced me to look within as well and also look at you know my family and say like, all right, maybe things aren't exactly the way I thought they were.
Speaker: And that's just kind of how things started for me. And again, it was like something that, you know, and you know, I know you'll be the first to say it as well. you know, we don't always have the words for it. We don't have the language. And yeah we just want to like, you know, try to figure it out. Like, and like maybe it it doesn't need to be this way, but then you learn about, you know, just how, you know, some of those family dynamics of how they actually are and where they came from. Like, how did they get to the point where,
Speaker: Of how they were seeing, oh well, we, you know, if it's entitlement or if it's whatever it is, like you just, you start to see like, oh, you were never able to do X, Y, Z. So now it's your turn.
Speaker: And that's something that I know for both of us, it was kind of like one of these things were like, wait a minute, wait a minute. We didn't sign up for that. you know We all want to be in this together, but that's not the... Go ahead. No, it's it's interesting. I feel like, and I don't want to speak for you, but i feel like what I think you're saying is
Speaker: you know, having our first kid was like, it just like exposed, Oh, there's like some dynamics here. I've never looked at. And then because there was a shift in the family, there were some other dynamics that were coming to the surface that we just, it was a, it was a shock. It was a surprise. And then actually, um In the first couple episodes of the podcast, I told my version, i guess, of this of the story and of, like, I guess, my my story and my journey with family communication and studying family dynamics. And I had studied them for years prior even to having a kiddo. And then when we had a kiddo and, yeah, there were some things exposed on your end of, you know, your family dynamics that you grew up with or your extended family. I was like, It was still shocking. it was and And I was like, wait, aren't I supposed to be the the family communication expert? But that's not how it works. But um yeah, ah it's funny. um I think you're right. Obviously, that was a huge fork in the road for both of us and I know for you as an individual. But
Speaker: I and again, i don't want to put words in your mouth, but i also felt like you were exploring dynamics that you had, like in your relationships and romantic dynamics, like before we even met. And you had been single for a really long time before we met. And I got coaching in like understanding family dynamics and having therapy and understanding how to have a healthy partnership and where I was tripping up in that way for me. And then, you know, other like my academic studies and family communication,
Speaker: But yeah you had kind of a different journey where maybe you weren't doing anything externally, but internally, like in your own little house by yourself, you really, and and I feel like you've only opened up about that, like within, like recently, like within the past few years. Sure. Yeah. And actually, yeah, I mean, you know, yeah, what I was referring to again with our first kid, again, it was definitely how it was changing the family dynamics. I think,
Speaker: you know, you're you're right, again, is if we go back further, again, it was more kind of like, you know, the relationship, like, you know, kind of with myself and kind of what i you know, because obviously over the years and like, you know, you find yourself in different relationships and you're like, oh I'm in this same relationship on and off for how many years? And it's like, you know, why is that? And like, that was something that I know we actually bonded over when, you know, we first started dating because like we both had a similar experience of of something like that in our past. And it was like, why? Why?
Speaker: Why did that happen or why did that keep happening? And and I think that's when, you know, a lot of things in my life, like it was like, I need, you know, you know you have that moment where you have to take stock in,
Speaker: This is, okay, so like something is off here, something that doesn't feel right. And you know yeah know what's the definition of insanity? It's like, you know you keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. And like I think that's what like what was leading me, you know again, to be like, okay, I just need to take a step back and go like, what is it that I want for me?
Speaker: And, you know, like, you know, it wasn't like, oh, I want them to be tall. I want them to be this. I want, it it wasn't like about that. It was like, what is it I like, you know, what do I want from a partner? What, like, what kind of things am I looking for that it was like, I want to share my life with a person like this. And, you know, and it took, you know, i'd say years to really, you know, hone in on that. And, you know, obviously, you know, You know you still date and you still do different things, but like you know it wasn't until a certain point where it was just like, okay, I need to now truly step out of my comfort zone and you know really get to, okay, I need to see what's out there for real. Not like, i mean, yes, you you meet people you know out or this or that, but i was like,
Speaker: I need to go fishing in a, in a large pond. And that pond was online dating. And it was like the scariest thing I've ever done in my entire life. So that,
Speaker: it was, was like, cause it was like, was like, you know, always made the joke. I was like, I meet, you know, crazy people or, you know, just people that like, are just like, so not for me in real life. I'm like, now I'm going to go on the internet and try and looking for them. Yeah. You know, but it really didn't turn out to be as bad as that. You know, obviously I found people that I didn't align with or, you know, it didn't work out. But like those systems really let you sift through and really just like, you know, get, you know,
Speaker: Get down to the heart of it. Like, you know, even before you would meet a lot of the people, it was just like, you know, I know this person isn't like, they just answered this or like, I feel like they're, you just know, like you just get that feeling. And it was like, and it was, it was good confidence for me because it was like, I do know what I want.
Speaker: And I know that this person is not, is probably not going to be that. um And, you know, I think having those realizations and being, know, I guess we'll say vulnerable. I probably didn't say it like this back then, but being vulnerable enough with myself, like,
Speaker: is, you know, that's what, you know, really drove me to be like, you know, you need to, the only way you're going to know is if you're out there and you're out there is you, not as anybody else, not as what you think people need, but it's like out as yourself. And that's something I always tried to do. And again, it obviously, you know, brought me to you. So I think, I think it did. i think we did fine.
Speaker: um Yeah, it can be a big journey to get there. I know. And I know that, again, and that is, you know, with, yeah you know, before we met and then, you know, also said, you know, with with our first kiddo. But, like, I really think after, you know, after we, you know, we had our first kid and, you know, started going through things, it was like one of the big things that I know you and I, again, got into that mode because of how hard it was to have a kid during the pandemic. Also realized we didn't have a lot of family support and, you know, COVID and all, like there was just so many things that like were just on us every day that when we finally started to get out of that, there just seemed to be this, you know,
Speaker: we'll say it like rigidity and like survival oh and, you know, and it just like, it never seemed to go away. And it really, again, and obviously, you know, it affected us and like, it really forced, you know,
Speaker: me to like kind of, you know, like this is like, you always knew it. And like, you know, as you, as you get deeper into any of this healing, you start to feel like something has always been off or something doesn't feel right.
Speaker: And, you know, I know we've brought this up before, but not, not on the podcast, but like, you know, it was like, I think it was an episode of a queer eye ah that, that was on. And, you know, just a normal episode, whatever it was, you know, and you were just watching it and I was just sitting there watching it with you. And, you know, whoever the, you know, the, the person they were focusing on that, that week, you know, had a you know, I think maybe they were in a fraternity or whatever it was, but they, yes, yes. The fraternity episode. Yeah. Where they go to, I think it was like a house in a frat house in like at Tulane university in new Orleans or something. yeah yeah Yes. so So they're just all sitting there and it's like, it's all men.
Speaker: You know, they're sitting there with Karamo, but like they're, you know, and these are, again, these are all straight men, know, just sitting around a fire and like, like it was so vulnerable and exposing and like they were talking about their feelings. And it was like, like I felt like immediate shame about that this was happening. But then also I felt like,
Speaker: Like, I almost like, you know, it's always like, you know, when you hear somebody talking, you like lean in to like really listen and hear what they have to say. That's kind of what I was feeling like as well. So I kind of felt very torn. And I don't even know if in the moment we were, we talked about it, but I know like, you know, shortly after that, I was like, you know, that certainly was something and that really did affect me, but I really did not understand what, what was going on. did you yeah Yeah. Like why it was affecting me and what that was, but.
Speaker: You know, I, yeah, it's, it it was, it was a lot. And again, that's, you know, would led me onto other journeys, but again, I'll, I'll pause here if you want to say anything. I feel like I've been going for a while, but yes. No, I'm, I like, I'm actually ah tearing up. I didn't expect this, but i' yeah, I'm tearing up just because Well, first and foremost, I remember when we were watching that episode together and we had been already doing like a lot of healing work in our marriage because when we did have our first kiddo, we had like, I mean, we definitely had like a tough time with that. And and honestly, I think...
Speaker: Unless you're incredibly prepared. And even then, I don't even know if you can be prepared enough. Having your first kid totally can throw wrench into even the strongest and healthiest marriages in the world. And ah so I remember we were we were repairing a lot together after we had a rupture in our marriage, like after having our first kid or a couple or just like lots of ruptures that like – made us have like a big moment of like, oh no, this, you know, this is, we're like in some really unhealthy dynamics. And I remember like we had really been healing a lot already, but there was still like a rockiness to, I think our relationship that we were still like working through and sifting through and you watching that. Like, I didn't even realize what was happening for you. But then a couple days later, we were having, like like, a fight that turned into, after creating emotional safety, turned into, like, a deeper conversation. And I remember you telling me, like, I think you even started crying, like, about how...
Speaker: how much that affected you and, and how, how much it hit something inside of you that you always needed, like maybe some, some acknowledgement around. And that I remember being very shocked at, at how, how deeply it affected you. um,
Speaker: That was really like I'm tearing up just because even hearing you communicate about it now, I'm like, there's been so much growth in you as a person. And the way you communicated it was just so clear and so beautiful, I think, here. So that's why I was tearing up. But also, um on a funny note, I always and we're going to have to I guess we'll have to tag him in in this podcast. But. Yeah, Karamo. Karamo Brown. will have like He yeah saved up yeah our marriage for sure. It's a data point for sure. It's definitely a milestone. it's yeah without even without even trying. i mean, it was really just about, yeah, bringing like a friend like male friendships together in a fraternity. Meanwhile, Yeah.
Speaker: It was just this huge, this huge thing in in our, in our marriage. So yeah, beautiful. um
Speaker: I wanted to talk a little bit about, I know i said that in order to kind of show what getting coaching and your family dynamics and in your relationship can look like, like, you know, what beautiful results there can be out of that.
Speaker: i wanted to I wanted to make sure that when you and I are speaking, of course, within the boundaries of being like respectful of our privacy, but still like there's part there's things where we're like, oh, wow, like hopefully this helps a lot of people. But the one thing in order to kind of create safety for the listeners and show kind of how we work through these things, i wanted to, if you're willing to speak about you in like the past year have had this really big realization. I guess not even in the past year. I would say in the first the the last couple of months in your love language.
Speaker: And I know when we were first engaged, we both did the love language test and you tested that your number one love language was physical touch.
Speaker: And obviously that was well over nine years ago, probably around 10 years ago. And more recently, you've been working with a really special group of men and receiving coaching yourself and making our home and our marriage and our family dynamics feel how we've decided like feels best for us and all of the conversations that we've been having surrounding that lately.
Speaker: you've realized that you actually have a different number one love language and that's been kind of a big thing to unpack. How, and I know specifically you, and again, i don't want to put words in your mouth so you can, you know, correct me, but you thought that perhaps you you tested that physical touch was your number one love love language because you were still masking in some ways or something that our culture kind of told you as a man, like that physical love language should be your love language in a way, that there's subtle messages in that.
Speaker: And I was just, yeah, I was wondering if you would be willing to expand on that today. Sure. Yeah. and And like you said, physical touch was, again, like what I had tested, you know, you know, many, many years ago. And, you know, it's not it wasn't even surprising to me because, again, like, you know, I'm a hugger, you know, I like, you know, it it doesn't even need to be anything, you know.
Speaker: crazy. It's just, you know, like, you know you just like, you know, like, you know, even a hand on your shoulder, just sitting next to somebody on the couch, you know, just like, you know, just being, you know, being close and just having those, you know, things. And which again, it's still something that, you know, i still value, but, um but what I noticed, as you said, as you know, I have started, you know, again, you know, i am, I am now in a, in, you know, a group with, with, with other men and ah you know, just learning about just,
Speaker: you know, we'll just say like how to be, how to be more in tune with us and how, again, it can also help, you know, with, you know, with a marriage. But as I started going through that, I really was starting to challenge, like there's something, again, it's one of these moments where like something feels off is that, you know,
Speaker: the love language and the thing that, again, is your love language, you know, I assume you don't mind me you know saying what it is, but like it's words of affirmation. And I'm a family communication person, of course, words of affirmation. It's my love language. i word right Yes, exactly. So it's not really a surprising fact, but what was surprising was that I started to think that that my love language may also be words of affirmation.
Speaker: But every time I brought that up in my you know in my brain or in my mind, i was like, I don't know how that could be. Because if anything, like anything, cause I started to think, I started to run the scenario. It was just like, well, all right. If Julie's going to tell me like, you know, like, Hey, you know, great. You know, you really did really great with the kids or like, you know, thank you so much for taking care of this or taking care of me or take. And like, every time I would say those things to myself, something would activate to be just like, yeah.
Speaker: Oh yeah, no problem. But it was like very, like after I sat with it longer, i was like, I'm being very dismissive of that. Like not to you or to anyone that would be like, but I'm just being dismissive to myself. I'm like, man, you're almost just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, I need to dig into that more. Cause I'm like, why am I feeling that way?
Speaker: And it was like, well, because you you're just doing your job or you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. You don't need to be recognized for that or anything. No, that that's not, you don't need that.
Speaker: And I'm like, i don't need that. Okay. And I'm like, why don't I need that? Well, then that goes back further, way back into my past as far as like just as a boy or, you know, just being a man.
Speaker: I've been told my whole life that my feelings don't matter. Okay. And when I say my feelings, I'm allowed to be angry. Okay. That's acceptable. Okay. But anything else, you know, it's like, you know, if I'm like, if I'm sad or if I'm this or like trying, no nobody wants to hear anything about that. Now, again, saying that out loud, even right now sounds ridiculous, but it is how, you know, as being a boy, you know, growing up and like, that is the message I received everywhere.
Speaker: and And you, I'm assuming, i feel like we've talked about this, so it's it's hard to, but not just as an individual and your particular experience, but this is like a cultural problem. 100%.
Speaker: Yes. yes And like, I think what happens over time for for men is as they as they grow and, you know, that you start, you know, you start to find yourself in different lanes. It's either like, you know, you could just be the really strong, you know, like, you know, outwardly alpha male, you know, where you're basically like, you know,
Speaker: you're getting out ahead of everything and just letting everybody know where it is. Or could be on the other end of the spectrum where you're like, you're silent, you know? And, you know, you're just like, you're very, you know, either, well, I won't say withdrawn, but like, you're basically not going to rock the boat. You're going to make sure that you're just, and that's how it is. But still in both of those scenarios, there is no like vulnerability or saying that you, know,
Speaker: you know, want, ah you know, any kind of feedback or any kind of like, you know, allowing emotions to be, you know, recognized. And again, it doesn't mean that their love language has to be words of affirmation, but like it still could be acts of service. It could be their love language. And then they're thanking so someone could be thanking them for acts of service and it could be the same thing.
Speaker: That's just what I do. Don't worry about it. You know, I don't need, i don't need anything. I don't need the feedback. I don't need anything. just, yeah. Okay. Okay. And when I learned and when I more learned that that was how, you know, like words of affirmation were something that I actually need. And that is actually what I want.
Speaker: Like it really like opened my eyes to a lot of things because, you know, with it being your love language and obviously I've made lots of strides to make that occur, but like,
Speaker: It was also challenging for me. And like, I originally thought the challenge was, well, it's not my love language. So I have to try to, I'm like, something about that still didn't feel right. You know?
Speaker: And when I started to dig in more and again, I took the love language test again, it was like, I mean, it was like far and away words of affirmation. And I was like, Okay. All right. So there is a blocker here and there's a, you know, if I'm not accepting words of affirmation, why would I give it to anyone else?
Speaker: You know, or at least give it to them in a natural way or saying that, you know, that is... it it's just It was just such a block for me. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that that's the word, that like the diction you used, and and the block, because I would say the same thing. And so I also, i and again, with being respectful of of our own private lives, but just generically and and generally,
Speaker: I felt like there was a block, too. And it was interesting, like what my own own intuition was as well, because I thought I was like, I wonder if now with like all of the growth and self-awareness he has now, if he would say he has the same love language. And I feel like I said that to you a few weeks ago. just to even plant that seed and not in a manipulative way, but just to ask that question of like, is that resonating for you? And you could have come back to me, of course, and just been like, no physical touches. Like that's definitely my number one thing. However, I know that you even said like you didn't realize it, but i don't know. you're going to be able to explain it far more because you understand the experience of a man far more than I do because I am a cisgender woman. but
Speaker: are you said that you felt like physical touch was something you felt as a man you should want more than words of affirmation is that how you would say that do you want to so i think words so i think it i mean it i don't know if it's exactly the way you said it but i think it's i think it's more that
Speaker: That love language doesn't require words. And i think it being physical touch, I think, I think was easier for me to absorb, even though it's actually not the primary one that I wanted.
Speaker: You know, that's, that's how I'm viewing it is that, you know, even as a man or like, you could just say like, well, a man definitely wants physical touch or this. And that could be true, but it's not so much like, you know, we're talking about it being a love language of like, how do you feel loved? And I mean, some men just like want acts of service, like someone doing things for them. And but that might be their number one, you know, and it could be that. But I think for me, when I was saying it was physical touch, I think it was the next thing.
Speaker: Like it was still something I could receive the message that I was loved, but like I didn't have to deflect the words because actually because words of affirmation is actually what I wanted. But it was like, I know I can't accept that. And that could be all subconscious. But like, that's how it felt. Because it was potentially admitting that you were more emotional than you actually wanted to come off. That definitely tracks. Yes.
Speaker: Yes. ah You know, i feel like you're, mean, obviously it's not surprising, you know, we're not unique, but I remember last semester. So one of, and you know, I'm always dabbling into a different ways of learning more about family dynamics, but I took a class last semester.
Speaker: It was, and I say last semester because this particular class was at a university. And the some of the research I was doing for a specific paper was regarding like how to save a marriage, like what are the ingredients you need to save a marriage or what modalities are the most successful in saving a marriage, you know, like and marriage therapy wasn't the number one thing, um which was not surprising to me, but but I think surprising to others um in the field and that I was taking classes with because there were some therapists in the class. But one of the things that they said was for women, one of the most effective ways to that they felt gave them hope in that their marriage could be improved was a communication class. And, but men were like, this is not helping me. And they were feeling like the most dissatisfaction. So I found that so interesting. So women were reporting, this is giving me the most hope in that my marriage will improve and shift into healthier dynamics. And then the men were like, I am getting nothing out of this.
Speaker: And it it really had me curious. And I remember speaking to the professor, you know, we had several meetings and stuff about this particular paper. and and she had me, it was, she was really amazing and had me reach out to other people of like, who could kind of answer like, the deeper questions for this of like their own research that they happen to be doing. And, They were saying it's not that men can't feel the same way that women do about these communication classes, but that because we do such a disservice to our young boys in our culture of like, you know, not allowing them to have feelings, they do miss the opportunity of like creating brainwaves of like how to communicate more clearly, more effectively, more intimately. And that is like a new skill that they need to learn. So it's actually sometimes more helpful in creating a community of men.
Speaker: where they learn how to communicate kind of together. um and I, probably because it de-shames them of like, I don't know how to communicate my emotions or i might, I really struggle in communicating. Um, but when doing it with the women, because you know, we are, and, and women have their own issues. I mean, we raise little girls, I mean, in very unhealthy ways as well. That's a different story and a different podcast, um, which we will 100% do. However, I ah think that, you know, if if the women are like, oh, this feels so good and this is exactly what I want. There is a block there and there is a block. And that is like there isn't the emotional safety for the man to walk into that healthy form of communication and and be vulnerable, vulnerable enough to realize, like, I really need help here.
Speaker: um So that was real. So it's fascinating that that's like coming, like being like, oh, yeah, i guess we were probably an example of that for sure. um
Speaker: But what what's your take on that? Yeah, so I know, again, like you know you said, again, i'm you know I am currently you know in a group of men, and I i think the big thing for for me and for all all the men in there is that like we're all in the same boat, you know and there's no, like, hey – this is what we're here. Like we're here to do exactly that. Like we know we don't, we can't, we're not communicating well, you know, to our spouses or we're not communicating well, even, you know, to anyone potentially we're just, you know, we're just doing what we've always been told to do and like not being vulnerable and not, you know, trying to be more in tune even with ourselves is that, that that's the problem. And all of that is surrounding with, you know, emotions and,
Speaker: again, like we said earlier, emotions were something that was, you know, to be disregarded for for men and like, make sure you're not doing that. And, you know, we'll get into this in probably a future podcast, but like, you know,
Speaker: you know When we talk about men and society and the big one here is patriarchy, and I know that we could go off on a huge tangent on that, but but when you have those types of you know models in your head and there's a hierarchy and there's different things, there is a lot of fear.
Speaker: That you you don't want to be on the bottom of that totem pole. And we were all taught that if you're emotional or if you're this or that, you're going to be, that's where you're going to be. So it's like, you know, don't be like, you know, that person or don't be like that. So, but I'm glad that like, you know, we can be in a group where it's not like, we're all and that we're all in this together. And- if i had if it was like you know If we were doing that in a group of women, we would feel very exposed and very like just unsafe. Even though I think women can create a lot of safety for men, I think in a scenario like that, it would not it just wouldn't hit. And I think being outside of that, I think that's...
Speaker: You know, that's where it's works better, especially for me. So, yeah, yeah. And I think that that is also specifically something that we do at Family Com Flow, where if a man, you know, if it's a heterosexual partnership, but if a man is kind of exploring those things in and of themselves and, you know, the woman is kind of.
Speaker: y you know, I guess having her own reflections as well, coming together and creating that emotional safety together where the man feels safe and the woman feels safe. Again, if it's a heterosexual partnership, but I actually think it's very funny. Like And patriarchal things, I mean, they are they're awful, but they're only as powerful as we make them. And I think I've seen that in clients. I think that that's a testament to us and what we've done in our marriage. And I think I've even done that outside of family dynamics in my life as general is patriarchy is only as powerful as you participate in it. But, you know, and I also say that I do have privileges in my life. So I do need to say that out loud.
Speaker: However, it's interesting, the more I've studied family dynamics and marriage dynamic dynamics or romantic partnership dynamics, and the more I've worked with clients, the more I really think that we're actually, even though patriarchy kind of divided us, it didn't do it enough. Because where men are taught, you know, it's okay to feel anger, but really nothing else. And then women, it's like, you can feel all the things, but you can't feel anger. Right.
Speaker: It's actually like a perfect puzzle piece if you are willing to have those deeper conversations together and help heal one another in that. Like, I know that you've been so helpful in me tapping into my own anger and carving the emotional safety out for that for me. And in even making sure that we give that example to especially with raising daughters, um it's I don't know. It's just like it's not as dark as as I think some people think or or how it feels like, oh, you know, when a woman can't doesn't feel like she can be angry or doesn't even realize she doesn't.
Speaker: feel like she could be angry or a man doesn't even realize like, Oh, I, you know, I don't need to have those emotions. You know, it's like overall, like we have been built to heal this together. And yeah, it's like a puzzle piece that can come together. And if there's emotional safety created and you have the education in order to be able to do that, there is just, there's just so many blessings that can come out of it.
Speaker: ah i I also wanted to mention that I think a huge part of your realization in, oh, I do need those words of affirmation. And actually I'm realizing I need them so much that they are probably my number one love language.
Speaker: My love language being words of affirmation, when I would say like, hey, I need more of this from you, it did feel like such a block. And I remember being so confused because in so many other ways that our relationship feels just so beautiful and so safe and like, you know, the marriage of my dreams.
Speaker: I was like, he is not getting this. And it it feels so hurtful, but it also didn't even feel like you. And so when you said like that was a block,
Speaker: you know I had to do my own reflecting on that too because you know I would just take it so personally and it would be so hurtful. But understanding you know it wasn't that you didn't want to love me the way I need to be loved. It was just that...
Speaker: you had your own shame surrounding words of affirmation and, and i still deserved that, you know, it's, it's, I think sometimes people say like, Oh, don't take a personal. but That doesn't mean that, you know, you just dismiss that need from yourself. No, you absolutely deserved it. No, for sure. Yeah. Thanks honey. Yeah. Well, you deserve words of affirmation too. So,
Speaker: Thank you so much for being so vulnerable. And um thank you for having this conversation with me. I know we mentioned that in the future when we have these conversations, because i think you're going to on like once a month, maybe twice a month, we'll see kind of how it jives and and how everything comes together with the podcast. But I wanted you in the hot seat today since it was your first one. Uh, but I just really, i mean, i think that you just created a lot of emotional safety for a lot of men.
Speaker: And i think that you have probably also for a lot of women in different ways. And I'm just so grateful that you've, you've been willing to share these really intimate things with us today. So thank you for coming.
Speaker: Absolutely. Thanks for having me. And yes, I look forward to being on again and, you know, obviously, you know, offering just the again, my experience and just, you know, how things have gone for me. And it's like, there's obviously been missteps and like, that's just what this is part of. And like, you know, we, we call this like, you know, we're, we're, it can be messy, you know, and that's just, you know, I think where you start, you know, awareness is the first part, you know, and then, you know, we could eat the messy middle. And again, I think that's something that all of us, I think struggle with, but it's okay to be messy, but again, but you also have to know that you're in it together.
Speaker: And I feel like that is something that, you know, we're, think we're, I think we're doing a great job on and like, you know, but it's always evolving and, and that's just what, what that is. I like, I think the biggest thing is like, you know, there isn't a done, there's just, you know, you know, there's just more growth and more moving forward. And, and I know that's, um, again, that's our mantra. I know for sure. And I know that's, uh, you know, also for you for, for helping your clients. So it's, it's good. And I'm glad to be just a part of this.
Speaker: Thanks. Yeah, it means so much.
Speaker: Alrighty. think that that means we're going to wrap up and that's it for today. Thank you all so much for listening and for being here. If you would like to create more emotional safety in your own romantic partnership, whether you have, you know, your relationships a little bit in crisis or, you There's just something that just feels off or just doesn't feel fully right or you're kind of missing something and need more clarity on. We would be happy to help you at familycomflow.org. Take care, everyone.
