Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Optimal Equestrian, a podcast where I dive into how to optimize ourselves, our horses, and our businesses.
Speaker: Please support the show by liking or subscribing to my channel.
Speaker: You can follow me on Instagram at Optimal Equestrian and share the show with anyone who you think might enjoy it or benefit.
Speaker: Now let's get into the episode.
Speaker: For today's episode, we are talking about Robert Dover.
Speaker: He is a six-time Olympian, four-time Olympic bronze medalist.
Speaker: He's earned more honors than any other U.S. dressage rider.
Speaker: He served as a technical and coach advisor for the Canadian national team, and he later was a technical advisor or chef to keep for the U.S. dressage team.
Speaker: He is a founding member of the Equestrian AIDS Foundation and is a great advocate for developing programs to train, mentor, and fund the youth that are interested in the sport of dressage.
Speaker: So for this episode, I read his book, The Gates to Brilliance.
Speaker: And so today we're going to look at his riding career from riding his first horse to winning Olympic medals.
Speaker: And then I look at the most common themes and lessons from the book, which I found were...
Speaker: surrounding yourself with good mentors and trainers, learning a riding system, and using visualization.
Speaker: So let's jump right into his life.
Speaker: He grew up in Chicago and rode his first horse at 12 and he was immediately hooked.
Speaker: So the summer of his 12 year old year, they were vacationing in Lake Simcoe, I think is how you pronounce it.
Speaker: And the neighbor girl, Donna, had a couple of ponies that he learned to catch them, bridle them, and he even did some jumping bareback on them.
Speaker: And this was his first introduction to horses.
Speaker: And as he fell more and more in love with riding, he decided to start taking lessons at Tricanen Farm.
Speaker: which was his trainer was a German man who gave him lessons on the lunge line first.
Speaker: And he said that he rode for months without reins or stirrups because, quote, as the trainer said, quote, his hands were nowhere good enough to touch a horse's mouth through a bit, which I thought was very interesting.
Speaker: I mean, I feel like that.
Speaker: is probably the right thing to do and a very German thing to do.
Speaker: But a lot of our riding experiences as kids, I think, were very different.
Speaker: We were just given the reins and plopped on top of a horse and said, all right, kick, go, pull back on the reins, and let's stop.
Speaker: But he really learned to...
Speaker: Get the balance and the feel and all of that without having to think about steering or any of the technical things that you need to do.
Speaker: Just getting up there and getting your balance and the feel for riding before you were actually in charge of the horse and telling them what to do.
Speaker: He said he fell off a lot and he even learned a bunch of vaulting skills and tricks like getting on from the ground.
Speaker: He would do around the world, stuff like that.
Speaker: which I think just comes with being a kid.
Speaker: All you do is kind of explore and have fun, and you're not, I mean, at least I wasn't as strict and technical about writing.
Speaker: I was just out there having fun with my friends and doing obstacles, anything we could.
Speaker: We just liked being on the back of a horse.
Speaker: Then he progressed on with this trainer and he was allowed to ride in his first group lesson, which also meant it was his first time with stirrups and reins and not on the lunge line.
Speaker: So he went straight from the lunge line, not being in control at all, to being in an arena in a group lesson and not like this is his first time using stirrups and reins.
Speaker: And within minutes, he got too close to another horse.
Speaker: He said his horse kicked out and broke the other rider's leg.
Speaker: Like how traumatizing for that to be your first experience in a group lesson.
Speaker: Like we all get freaked out at horse shows and the arenas and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker: And his first time was that traumatic.
Speaker: Anyways, wasn't traumatic enough to make him stop.
Speaker: So I like this quote from him.
Speaker: He says, I became as dedicated and focused as a young person can be.
Speaker: By 13, it became so obvious that horses were my passion that my parents relented and allowed me to use $1,000 of my bar mitzvah money to purchase my first horse.
Speaker: And at 13, I just think that that is admirable to want to spend your money.
Speaker: If I had $1,000 when I was 13, I mean, I probably would have, but I probably would have wasted it on a lot of other things first.
Speaker: And I wouldn't have had enough money left to buy a horse.
Speaker: So anyways, he took that $1,000, bought his first horse, which was named Ebony Cash, and they ended up moving to Grand Bahama for his, the island for his dad's job.
Speaker: And so they had to fly this horse out there and he flew him to the Freeport.
Speaker: airport in the Grand Bahama Island and they realized that they had no way to get him off the plane.
Speaker: So they ended up having to load his stall onto a forklift and got him down that way.
Speaker: Luckily he was nice and calm and safe, but they, I just thought that was funny.
Speaker: They didn't even plan for that when they got to the airport.
Speaker: So he started learning dressage, jumping, fox hunting.
Speaker: He did a couple endurance rides and he did a little bit of polo, basics of polo on ebony cash.
Speaker: And then a few years later, they ended up moving to Florida.
Speaker: And so he sold cash and he ended up buying a three-year-old off-the-track thoroughbred mare.
Speaker: He quickly realized that that was way too much horse for him and he decided to give him back.
Speaker: So he then went out and had to find a more trained horse and bought a horse named Somerset Sun.
Speaker: He was also very early or he was very active in Pony Club and did a lot of dressage and eventing shows early in his riding career.
Speaker: And then as a professional at the age of 20, he was coaching clients in Poolsville, Maryland, and he had a home barn and he would travel to other clients around the area giving lessons for $10 an hour.
Speaker: I don't remember.
Speaker: I think the cheapest lessons I remember paying for were like $40 an hour.
Speaker: So this was in 1976, but that's just gives you an idea of how little he was making.
Speaker: He was barely scraping by.
Speaker: And during this time, he ended up seeing this three-year-old that he really liked and he fell in love with, but the horse was $20,000.
Speaker: And this just left him feeling really defeated, envious.
Speaker: He didn't have enough money.
Speaker: And there's all these rich riders who could buy top horses and make their dreams come true.
Speaker: And he was traveling around making $10 an hour.
Speaker: So he went back to the barn that day and he was telling everyone at the barn and all his clients and stuff about this horse and how in love he was with them.
Speaker: But it didn't matter because he didn't have the money to pay for him.
Speaker: So later that day, a client followed him back to his car and decided that she wanted to buy the horse for him and she wrote him a check for $20,000.
Speaker: And so he bought the horse.
Speaker: The horse's name was Federleit, and he paid his client back for the horse within a year.
Speaker: Federleit went on to become the horse that took him to the Olympics, World Championships, and two World Cups.
Speaker: So I'm sure he's so thankful for clients like that, and that's just a great reminder to...
Speaker: Always, for one, be grateful of your clients and you just never know who's going to give you a leg up if they believe in you.
Speaker: And just like I always say, relationships run the world.
Speaker: Now moving on to 1980, he was working for a businessman in Pepperell, Massachusetts, and his contract stated that he needed to go to Germany and spend a month there learning from Willie Schulteis.
Speaker: I hope I'm pronouncing these names correctly.
Speaker: But while he was there, he also met Uli Castleman, not knowing who he was, and he walked into the arena and
Speaker: Robert had no idea who he was and just kept on writing.
Speaker: And then he came home and after he was home for a few days, he got a phone call from his friend Michael in Germany.
Speaker: And this Yuli guy was on the phone as well.
Speaker: They ended up offering him a job, which he turned down twice.
Speaker: And then the third time they added Paul Schockenmull to the phone call.
Speaker: And they offered him more money than probably any other dressage rider in America was getting.
Speaker: They said that they would send him eight horses from Germany to train, compete, and sell.
Speaker: They would give him free board for his two horses, and he could come to Germany to pick a top Grand Prix horse to have as his primary competition horse.
Speaker: So that sweetened the deal a lot, and he decided to take the job.
Speaker: So now he is the representative of PSI in the United States.
Speaker: So he started getting contacted and phone calls about these horses that had been bought here in the U.S. And they were, the owners were having lameness or behavioral issues with these horses.
Speaker: Robert wanted to keep PSI's image, so he would tell them to bring the horse to him and he would see what he could do.
Speaker: He realized at this point that he just was not a very good salesman, and he would honestly tell the prospective buyers of issues with horses and that the horse might not be a right fit for him and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker: And I think that actually that probably gave him a lot of legitimacy and people could trust him.
Speaker: That's my thought.
Speaker: I don't ever think that you should, quote unquote, be a good salesperson when it comes to horses.
Speaker: I think that's only going to bite you in the ass later.
Speaker: So my personal opinion, I think that that probably gave him a lot of trust in the industry and things like that.
Speaker: So now he is starting to prepare for the 1983 Pan American Games, and he, at this point, was ranked number one in the country.
Speaker: But he did get skipped over for the games because they thought that...
Speaker: the flaws in his horse's gaits might show at the pre-St.
Speaker: George level, and that would affect the judging of the Olympics for the following year.
Speaker: The thing I really enjoyed about this book was he kind of gives you a peek behind the curtain of the politics and strategy, especially at the time before social media and the instantaneous nature that we have today, but just how...
Speaker: They would plan, like, don't go to shows every single weekend because it doesn't have time to come out into the press at that point.
Speaker: So you need to wait a couple weeks so that the judges can see the good press that you're getting, the scores that you got.
Speaker: for the previous shows and all of those kinds of things.
Speaker: So you're not wasting your money just going to shows every weekend.
Speaker: I just thought that was really interesting, kind of peek behind the curtain and the strategy back then.
Speaker: But anyways, I got distracted.
Speaker: So I was at the point where he's getting ready for the Pan American Games with the horse Romantico, which I forgot to tell you is the horse that he got to go to Germany and pick Romantico.
Speaker: From PSI.
Speaker: So he got skipped over for the games.
Speaker: All that.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Now we're back on track.
Speaker: So now PSI decides that they're going to sell Romantico and they tell Robert that he needs to get $175,000 for him or they're going to bring him back over to Europe and sell him there.
Speaker: So Robert really didn't want to give this horse up and he ended up getting a syndicate together and that allowed him to keep him and make it to the Olympics the following year.
Speaker: And this was his first Olympics.
Speaker: It was 1984 and he was 28 years old and he placed 17th at that Olympic Games.
Speaker: He then went on to compete at the World Championships in Toronto, and he said it was a major failure because he placed 37th.
Speaker: So in 1986, he decided to move to Germany after this quote-unquote failure.
Speaker: He trained and stayed with Gabriela Grillo, and then General Stekken helped him prepare for the World Cup Finals.
Speaker: He got 11th out of 13 at the Finals, which he also considered a failure.
Speaker: And General Stekken told him that he would never be able to do this horse justice and that he should sell Federale to Gabby.
Speaker: This brought him to tears and was obviously very emotional.
Speaker: This was his first horse that the client had bought him and he brought him all the way up from a three-year-old, but he didn't give up.
Speaker: He didn't give him to Gabby.
Speaker: He kept going and working on the basics and gaining confidence in the show ring.
Speaker: And he started slowly placing higher and he even won some classes and
Speaker: He got a compliment from a judge about how his quote-unquote new freestyle was so much better than the one he had done at the World Cup, except the judge didn't realize that it was the exact same test.
Speaker: He just wrote the basics better and had gotten better throughout the year.
Speaker: So this led Robert to two observations.
Speaker: He said, one, being technically correct and showing the confidence that stems from having really done your homework makes others gravitate towards you in a very positive and sometimes remarkable way.
Speaker: I think that's very motivating to, especially in a sport like dressage where it's all about the tiny movements and the basics and perfecting every single thing that you can.
Speaker: Then get going out and gaining confidence by doing that in front of people in the show ring.
Speaker: And I just think that that's a really cool thing that he talks about.
Speaker: The second thing he realized was that music dressage and art in general is subjective.
Speaker: and that you can create a sense of being in sync and a sense of rhythm and looking harmonious and that that's all that you need to get high scores instead of actually being harmonious and in sync and connected with your horse which is just a sad reality and i don't know how we go about fixing that but that's that was the second observation
Speaker: He continued to compete in every single Olympic Games after that through 2004, and he was also elected team captain in every Olympics that he attended, which I think is just a real testament to his leadership and how revered he became in the dressage world, and I just think that that's admirable.
Speaker: Then in 2013, he became the technical advisor and chef to keep of the U.S. dressage team.
Speaker: The team had a lot of success, but the riders and horses were starting to age out.
Speaker: And so Robert really emphasized the need to develop young talent at all of the levels and to funnel them up through the system or the U.S.'s dressage team's success would start to wane.
Speaker: He also wanted to focus on fundraising so writers could afford to try out for the team, and that wasn't as much of a barrier to entry.
Speaker: than as it was like for him when he was growing up.
Speaker: And I think that that is really important, especially as we all get older and start to not compete as much or lose that drive and energy to go out and show all the time, that we are helping the industry and younger riders and everything to keep our sport alive.
Speaker: I think that it's
Speaker: easy to get lost in our own world and just assume that someone else is doing it.
Speaker: And we do all work and live so independently from the competition world for the most part, that it is an important thing to think about and give back to our sport that we love.
Speaker: Now I know that I'm kind of leaving the rest of his career as like, oh, he just wrote off and lived happily ever after.
Speaker: I really do find a lot of the interesting parts and inspiration from the come up.
Speaker: So that's one reason why.
Speaker: Also, I just don't think that he talks about it a lot in this book.
Speaker: So they're just, and it's kind of hard to find all that information.
Speaker: I mean, yeah, you can find like he went to this Olympics placed this and I just don't think that that's very interesting.
Speaker: So that's where I'm going to leave his life and how he got to where he was.
Speaker: But I do want to go on to the lessons that I took from his book.
Speaker: So the first big lesson and theme that I took away from him is to surround yourself with good mentors and trainers.
Speaker: And he talks a lot about the wisdom that he took from his mentors, coaches, and idols.
Speaker: He mentions a lot of them.
Speaker: He got inspiration and influences from a litany of people, which I'm probably, as usual, going to butcher all of the latest names.
Speaker: But his list ranges from Vince Lombardi to Colonel Youngfist, Alex Cunyot, Willie Schulteis, Reiner Klimke, and Herbert Riebein.
Speaker: So how did they influence them?
Speaker: He talked about Colonel Youngquist telling him that, and I quote, we should not think in days or weeks or even months.
Speaker: We need to patiently think in years as dressage trainers.
Speaker: We needed to understand the basic principles of our art and practice them again and again.
Speaker: He also learned from Colonel Youngquist that animals and people do best when the rules stay the same from day to day.
Speaker: And so he would say 15 minutes of good work is better than hour and a half of wandering aimlessly around.
Speaker: He would also often train in the same way every day and they had a gymnasticizing portion where they would use half halts to get a more collected trot on a 20 meter circle, then on the wall, ask for extension and then back again.
Speaker: And they called this the rubber band exercise.
Speaker: They practice this every single day and then they would spend time working on a few key movements that they wish to elevate to a higher quality.
Speaker: So they're not going over like an entire test in one day.
Speaker: They're doing this rubber band exercises and then just a couple of movements to try to elevate them.
Speaker: So if you're following what he said earlier about thinking in years instead of days or weeks or months, then this would make a lot of sense.
Speaker: You're not making any major changes with those short amount of times.
Speaker: or short amounts of time, you are thinking the long-term goal and training as a year-long thing.
Speaker: He also talks about a lot of lessons that he learned from Dr. Klimke in the book, mainly about how to assemble the best team around you.
Speaker: So having the best vets, farriers, physios, other trainers and mentors, your eye on the ground, your grooms,
Speaker: Everyone just having the best team around you is really going to help elevate you in your writing and how you show up at a show.
Speaker: This is also he learned from Dr. Klimke about the spreading your shows apart.
Speaker: That's where he learned that from because the results weren't immediate like I talked about earlier and waiting so that the judges could read about your wins before showing again.
Speaker: So the second big lesson that I took from his book was learn a writing system.
Speaker: And so Robert thinks that you not only need the 10,000 hours of practicing a specific task, but it should be under a great trainer system and observation that will create a successful outcome.
Speaker: So get your 10,000 hours, but, and he quotes, or this is a quote from him, the key is not only practicing untold hours, but doing so under great supervision and hopefully being inspired by another's similar genius.
Speaker: And so this kind of leads it back into the first lesson of having that mentor experience.
Speaker: You should be getting inspiration from them.
Speaker: You should be under great supervision from them and learning from them.
Speaker: And he talks about how there's many roads to roam, but sticking with a system consistently over time will most probably produce desirable results.
Speaker: So if you have a very strong set of ideas, believe in it and have a good enough horse, then it will all work out.
Speaker: And I think that this is just so important, especially in this like modern day where information is so vast and there's so many different training systems.
Speaker: Like think of horsemanship.
Speaker: There's so many different trainers and each one of their methods are slightly different, but they all get good results.
Speaker: And maybe you're like picking and choosing from
Speaker: these different trainers and putting it together.
Speaker: And yeah, that could probably work.
Speaker: And you're going to, what you're actually probably going to do is figure out your own system.
Speaker: And it's going to take a lot of time and trial and error.
Speaker: But what Robert is trying to say is that if you pick a trainer, believe in it, you're probably going to get there a lot faster than if you just kind of take and experiment with all these other different methods that you can see online.
Speaker: I mean,
Speaker: There's so many people advertising on like Instagram of their method to get the perfectly relaxed calm horse.
Speaker: And I mean, you just go down so many rabbit holes if you do that.
Speaker: And there's some system like if you think about like the German dressage system versus the French and then you're trying if you're trying to hodgepodge Boucher in there also, I just don't think that that's going to work.
Speaker: So, like he says, it's like the Wizard of Oz.
Speaker: He says finding a system is like the Wizard of Oz.
Speaker: So you can stay on the road to arrive at Oz.
Speaker: And then along the way, there's going to be all these different paths that look like shortcuts.
Speaker: However, they're only going to lead to a scary forest with lion, tigers, and bears.
Speaker: So don't be tempted by those little paths.
Speaker: Just stay on the long path to Oz and you will get there.
Speaker: So how do you ensure success?
Speaker: He says to learn from the finest teacher, trainer, or coach that you can get the best horse that you can afford and think in years, not days, months, or weeks like we had talked about earlier.
Speaker: He also said that you need to find joy in the process of learning and training, including the wins and failures, which if you're listening to this podcast, I'm pretty sure that you already are in love with the process of learning.
Speaker: That's what this entire podcast is about.
Speaker: If you're reading these books, then you are just enjoying learning and the process of that.
Speaker: And then hopefully you're taking it out into your, to your trainer or trying it out on your horse, that kind of stuff.
Speaker: So another quote I really like from him, he says, the truth is a great system allows the student to learn from taking chances, many of which will result in failures.
Speaker: It is those failures that finally clarify the path towards success, provided that the coach keeps the student positive and open minded.
Speaker: And this quote I really like because it touches on that failure is a learning moment.
Speaker: If the only part of the only way that you can take an L or you can have an actual failure is if you don't find the lesson in it, which I I'm sure I've talked about before on the podcast.
Speaker: So every failure is just a way to reflect and see what you did wrong and how you can change it and prevent it the next time so that you can make it a win.
Speaker: And that is a win.
Speaker: So he also says how you act when faced with adversity defines you more than your successes.
Speaker: Now, in that last quote, he talks about a coach being positive and or keeping the student positive and open minded.
Speaker: And so I wanted to touch a little bit on what he talks about, how you should select a trainer.
Speaker: And I think that this is really important, probably deserves an entire episode.
Speaker: But he says, how should you select a trainer?
Speaker: You need to look at how the individual trained themselves.
Speaker: Do they make the task of riding or competing look easy and beautiful?
Speaker: Do they produce good results?
Speaker: Do they seem like they enjoy it?
Speaker: Do they have a good reputation?
Speaker: Have they done it all?
Speaker: Like have they competed and coached at the highest level or to whatever level you're wanting to get to within like the near future?
Speaker: Have they done all that?
Speaker: Have they competed, showed and been successful at that?
Speaker: He says that the job as a trainer is to make yourself obsolete.
Speaker: The trainers are to help the rider know who they are and what they're expressing outwardly in your riding.
Speaker: So what does the entire picture look like?
Speaker: Are they instilling that in you?
Speaker: Like, do you have an understanding of what your horse and you look like or how to improve it?
Speaker: Like, can you feel it?
Speaker: All that kind of stuff.
Speaker: I think that that's super important, kind of not ever thought about.
Speaker: And the fact that he talks about the trainer, you're supposed to make yourself obsolete.
Speaker: That is a very unique mindset that I think a lot of people have that mentality of like, oh, I have to like withhold knowledge from them and so that they're always needing me so that I can have a job and be employed still, which it's just that...
Speaker: scarcity mindset, and it's not helpful for anyone.
Speaker: So another quote that I really liked from him, he says, when confidence is high, success is not only at its most possible, it becomes probable.
Speaker: As I've said, becoming self aware is a big part of creating what we visualize our as our grandest self.
Speaker: It is also the teacher or coach's job to instill confidence in their student through positive reinforcement as well as well understood and well intentioned critiques.
Speaker: With each small success, the next slightly larger one becomes more attainable and comfortable.
Speaker: And I really love this quote because he talks about the positive reinforcement.
Speaker: And then when you are making those critiques, you need to understand them and have a good intention behind it.
Speaker: And I'm just, the older I get, I do not want someone yelling at me and belittling me.
Speaker: I don't think that that's helpful for anyone.
Speaker: It doesn't feel good.
Speaker: And I'm just over it.
Speaker: I will not have a trainer that does that.
Speaker: I have like zero tolerance for that.
Speaker: So if, I mean, honestly, if I'm in a situation where I'm in a lesson with a trainer, I'm probably not going to say anything.
Speaker: I'm just going to not ever schedule a lesson with them again or I'm going to move my horse or something.
Speaker: I'm just, it's not something that I'm going to tolerate anymore.
Speaker: And I think that it is important as a student to be able to take critiques and be able to put your ego aside.
Speaker: But it just shouldn't be like them trying to put you down or they have an ill intention or they're getting frustrated and they're letting their emotions out and they're just taking it out on you or your horse or whatever.
Speaker: So now on to the final lesson I took from him.
Speaker: He talks a lot about visualization, which we've talked about in previous episodes, specifically the mind gym episode.
Speaker: We use it to dream up how successful we can be.
Speaker: We're going to use it to practice a test the night before.
Speaker: But Robert also stresses using it in real time.
Speaker: So like in the middle of a test, right before you perform a movement, he like say you're going to do an extended trot.
Speaker: He's visually thinking of it as being this grand, fluid, dramatic and beautiful extended trot right before he does it.
Speaker: He says he takes a deep breath.
Speaker: He's going to oxygenate his body, calm his nerves.
Speaker: Clear his mind and imagine that perfect extended trot or whatever other movement you're doing.
Speaker: And I have a couple quotes from him.
Speaker: He says, visualization becomes a major key to success as you go from learning a craft to becoming a true artist in life.
Speaker: And I think we often don't think of riding horses as an art, but dressage, I think, probably does more than any of the other sports.
Speaker: But even if you're a Western rider, even if you're just riding out in a field or you're a hunter jumper, you
Speaker: Those are all like the way that someone rides a test or a course or just out on a trail ride can be so beautiful or it can be so ugly.
Speaker: And you all know what I'm talking about.
Speaker: Like if you've seen a horrible ride, you're like, oh, that just didn't look good.
Speaker: Didn't feel good.
Speaker: So I think that if we think of it as being a true, that's why I like that quote, just saying that it's a true art.
Speaker: He also has a quote that says, in Dressage, to be successful, you must see the grandest movie you can possibly imagine of yourself and your horse dancing in perfect harmony together in the fraction of a second before you attempt to do it.
Speaker: So that just kind of sums up the way that he uses a visualization, which is a slightly different way than what the sports psychologist says.
Speaker: say to do it like the night before as you're like practicing for your test you're just visualizing it and visualizing a perfect test instead he's doing it right before the actual movement
Speaker: And he talks a lot about being the director of your own life.
Speaker: He uses imagery to dream up how you and your horse will look and perform.
Speaker: And he does morning affirmations or meditations to help create and envision his life as like a movie and what he wants it to be.
Speaker: And I want to leave you with this final quote from Robert.
Speaker: He says, nothing succeeds like success.
Speaker: Being around highly motivated, successful, and interesting people motivates you to bring the very best out of yourself and reach higher every day.
Speaker: And that's just a major point of this podcast.
Speaker: We learn and we get inspired by the greatest writers and they may not be accessible in person, but we can always use our resources like their books or their sometimes there's movies or just even looking on their like social media and what they're doing, what they're achieving, if they're giving you little insights and
Speaker: and inspiration and just use it as a path to our own goals with our horses, whatever that is, whether you're a trail rider, if you want to go to the Olympics one day, we can all find inspiration, even if it just comes to like our everyday life and habits and our own personal life.
Speaker: If you don't have horses and
Speaker: So that's where I'm going to leave you.
Speaker: I really enjoy this book.
Speaker: Again, it was called The Gates to Brilliance by Robert Dover.
Speaker: So check it out and leave your takeaways, notes, anything you want about Robert Dover in the comments.
Speaker: And I will see you all next time.
Speaker: See ya.
