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Charles Williams says assessment is feedback
141 Plays2 years ago
https://twitter.com/_cwconsulting
Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-counter-narrative-changing-the-way-we-talk/id1507196357
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Transcript
Introduction to Learner-Centered Spaces Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Learner Centered Spaces Podcast, where we empower and inspire ownership of learning, sponsored by Mastery Portfolio, hosted by Star Saxton, Emma Chapeta, and Crystal Frommer. In each episode, we will bring you engaging conversations with a wide variety of educators, both in and out of the classroom.
00:00:27
Speaker
This podcast is created for educators who want to learn more about how to make the shift toward learner-centered spaces for their students, schools and districts, or education at large. The learner-centered spaces podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast Network. Get ready to be inspired as we dive right into the conversation with today's guest.
Meet Charles Williams: Educator and Advocate
00:00:55
Speaker
We are so glad to have Charles Williams today on the show. He has served as an educator for nearly 20 years as a teacher, an assistant principal, and a principal for students in grades K to 12. He also serves as an equity advocate for the equity offices of the city of Chicago and the Chicago Public Schools. As a reflection of his dedication to doing this important work, Charles also hosts the Counter Narrative podcast.
00:01:21
Speaker
and co-host an edu show called Inside the Principal's Office. Through his consulting company, he is a bestselling author and a highly sought after workshop facilitator and keynote speaker. Good morning, Charles. We're so excited for you to be on with us this morning. And we'd love to start out with you telling us a little bit about yourself. Who are you? What do you do? What's your role? Your location? Your journey? Some kind of interesting fact that people might not know about you?
00:01:51
Speaker
Sure. We'll start. First of all, I want to just say thank you. I enjoy sharing space with you. You know, I know I've said it before, but I will continue to say it. You were one of my biggest, like, influencers. And then the moment that you connected back to me, I was like, so that's always going to be a moment for me. And so I just, you know, I think it helped, like,
00:02:17
Speaker
that this world, this work that we do in this space, I think a lot of times when you're standing on the outside, it looks very, I guess, exclusive. But what I love about the work that we're doing is that it's far from that. I mean, in some spaces, some educators, they are, right? But for most part, we're all trying to do what's best for these kids. And so we are welcoming and we're open to connecting.
What Are Learner-Centered Spaces?
00:02:41
Speaker
And so it was a phenomenal experience. I just want to say thank you because I think that has led me
00:02:46
Speaker
or helped to lead me to where I am today. So that being said, my name is Charles Williams. I'm an educator. I've been in this field for just about 20 years, serving the last decade as an administrator. Currently I'm in Chicago. I've been here for about eight or nine years. Prior to that, I was in Northwest Indiana where I started my educational career
00:03:13
Speaker
both as a career, but also as a student. So I actually went back, my very first job was in the district where I was a student. So I've kind of gone through this on normal or abnormal trajectory. I was a classroom teacher for about seven years, served as an interim AP, but then got that role because the person was not returning.
00:03:39
Speaker
The following year I was a principal. So I went from teacher AP to principal all in like three years. So it was a wild ride, but well, well worth it. A lot of lessons learned through trial and error.
00:03:54
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And then I started doing this sort of work. So in 2017, I had my first opportunity to present at a conference. I tell people all the time, it went horribly. Ironically, the name of the session was failure is an option, and it was absolutely an option for me because it was horrible. Two years later, they, for some reason, they invited me back. I presented again. I had the last slot on the last day, you know, the one where no one goes.
00:04:23
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But I had a full session and people came up to me afterwards, asked if I would host workshops and the consulting business was born. So that was in 2019, uh, really started taking off
Rethinking Assessment: Feedback Over Grades
00:04:36
Speaker
and then that pandemic thing happened. So it slowed down a little bit, but it allowed me to really lean in. And so I use that time to launch the podcast, begin writing a book, you know, the edu show and kind of all the other things that I'm doing. And so.
00:04:50
Speaker
That's where I'm at now. In addition to helping to run a school, I get to travel all over. In fact, as we're recording this, I'm sitting in Kansas City about to work with some teachers here after returning to Chicago for 24 hours from Las Vegas, from the Innovative School Summit. So it's exciting. It's a lot. It's exciting. But I'm just trying to make a big of an impact.
00:05:15
Speaker
as I possibly can. And I know you said something that maybe not a lot of people know about me. So the one fact that I like to share is that one time I had three meals, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, three separate meals in three different states in one day. And it was not because I was running around presenting. It was well before that.
00:05:38
Speaker
Charles, I'm not at all surprised that your consulting career took off because already I'm inspired by just listening to you talk. So thank you for sharing so much about yourself. And it sounds like you've been in such a wide variety of learner-centered spaces, not only your own classroom, but maybe classrooms you've observed in the schools you've worked in, and also in your speaking career. So could you tell us what a learner-centered space looks like, feels like, sounds like to you?
Challenges and Advice for Transitioning to Learner-Centered Education
00:06:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think for me, a learner-centered space, I mean, it's almost in the phrase itself, right? It's this idea where we are centering the learning around our students in that space. I think a lot of times, I mean, it makes sense when we say it.
00:06:26
Speaker
But when I think about the reason why it isn't more common, it's a scary place to be. For most of us coming up through education, those were not the spaces we were in. It was the teacher's classroom, the teacher was in charge, and we were along for the ride. Our job was to receive the information and take that and regurgitate it and move on to the next thing.
00:06:51
Speaker
So one, we replicate that. I think the other part of that is it's the scariness of letting go. This idea of if I make it learner centered, then I don't always know where we're going. I'm not always in control of the ride to this destination. Heck, I don't even know if we're going to make it to the destination. It's a very scary space.
00:07:15
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But I think part of that also stems from the structures that we've built. I was just listening to and I'm trying to remember who I was listening to aware, but we're talking about, you know, it was Jeffrey Canada. Jeffrey Canada was talking about how physicians
00:07:32
Speaker
when tackling new diseases. Money is thrown at them, opportunities are thrown at them for them to try to figure it out. And those mistakes that are natural to the learning process that are going to occur
00:07:49
Speaker
are not punished, right? Oh, that didn't work. Let me give you some more money. Let me give you some more time so you can go a different route. But for some reason in education, even though we claim that we want to create these spaces, when things go wrong, people tend to get punished, right? If our students don't learn, they get punished through grades and other stuff, which I'm sure will come up in conversation should not happen. I know Starr and I have had that conversation.
00:08:16
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Um, you know, teachers, teachers get punished, right? Admin get punished by districts. It's a trickle down effect. So we, we claim to want to create these spaces and yet the systems and structures that we have don't support that. So I know that wasn't necessarily the question, but for me, it's very, very simple. It's, it is a space where we are saying, this is about you as a learner, right? We have our skills, we have our standards that we need to meet.
00:08:43
Speaker
But what makes sense to getting you to that space, right? How can I help you as the learner get to that space? And when I have 20, 25, 30 different kids in my room, that may mean that we're taking multiple journeys, that I have to ask that question multiple times in order to get to those spaces. But that's centering the learner on our students.
00:09:09
Speaker
I couldn't agree with you more.
Breaking Traditional Systems for Personalized Learning
00:09:11
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When we spoke with Jesse Stommel, he said something similar, Charles, about how we have to put the humanity of what we do before. And I mean, his take on everything was kind of like, preset curricula is not appropriate either because we really need to wait till we know our kids to be able to truly have those conversations and make the best determination as to what and how we should be teaching them.
00:09:36
Speaker
which kind of leads us into our next question about assessment. So you talk about this learner-centered space in terms of, you know, making it about the kids and simply asking and having that conversation, what does assessment look like in that paradigm for you? Yeah, so I think for me, assessment absolutely needs to go through a shift.
00:10:03
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My wife has gone back to school and right now she's in an assessment course and she keeps telling me that I have to remember one, my role and position and stuff that I cannot yell at her professors nor can I critique them at least while she's in their class. But I say that because she's in an assessment course where the assessments are horrible
00:10:27
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And one of the biggest things is that, in my opinion, maybe if we relabel assessments and we call it feedback instead of assessments, maybe we'll approach it differently. So I say that because the course that she's in, and maybe the professor will hear this, and this is my kind of workaround, there's no feedback. Like, for example, there's this quiz. You take the quiz, and first of all, it's multiple choice. But you take this multiple choice quiz, and it just tells you
00:10:54
Speaker
how many you got right or wrong, and you could always retake the quiz if you want, which is fine if all I'm doing is if I'm shooting to get a high grade because eventually I'll figure it out. But I'm not really learning anything in the process. I'm not getting any sort of feedback. So when I think about assessments in a student-centered space, am I providing students with the feedback that they need on how they are doing
00:11:18
Speaker
on that journey that we talked about earlier towards mastering those skills and those standards. That's what assessment should be. So giving some massive assessment that is maybe standardized and slapping a score on there without any other sort of feedback doesn't do me very good, right? To know that, okay, I got 76% of these responses correct, but what did I do wrong?
00:11:43
Speaker
And more importantly, what can I do with this information so that way I can move forward and close that gap in my learning? That's the key. But so often, and again, this goes back to systems and structures, we're moving so quickly, we're trying to cover so much in those 180 or so days that we really don't have time to go through true feedback loops. I teach a lesson, I give you an assessment, I slap a grade on there, and we keep it moving.
00:12:13
Speaker
And sometimes, I mean, think about that, and that's for some of those quick assessments, right? Those multiple choices, right? Maybe it's computerized, but what if it's an essay or a project that's going to take some time to grade? I might get some feedback on an essay two weeks after I've turned it in, but now we're two weeks into the next unit.
Encouraging Risk-Taking in Education
00:12:37
Speaker
So what am I supposed to do with that information if I don't have an opportunity to continue practicing it? Which goes into grades and all of those other pieces.
00:12:47
Speaker
But that's when we're thinking about the idea of assessments and student-centered classrooms, I can't focus my classroom on my students if I'm not providing the students themselves with the feedback that they need in order to reach the standard, which is the whole point of the assessment to begin with. And so that's why I said I don't think what we're doing is true assessments. I think
00:13:12
Speaker
We're we're doing a quick snapshot and any valuation if you will and we're moving on But what we're doing is not an assessment I mean think about right like when we're in a dot and I'm sorry Keep going because I have thoughts running now But think about when you're in your doctor's office and they do an assessment, right? The doctor sits down they figure out what's going on, right? It's it's Preferably not a very quick process. We they they do tests they sit back down with you. They share that information They share next that's an assessment
00:13:42
Speaker
if you could you imagine walking into a doctor's office filling out like a 10 question multiple choice and then them saying okay well you're like 68% healthy I'll see you in two weeks but like wait a minute what like we don't do that so I'm why do we do that in our schools
00:13:59
Speaker
I love that analogy because I really, I think what you're saying is basically that assessment allows us to truly differentiate and personalize the learning because all the students could do the same assessment, but then it's the feedback that we give them that's really how we're personalizing it for each of them.
00:14:17
Speaker
So thank you. And I'm also curious, so we're, we've got these problems, right? Like our assessments are not actually assessing. So what advice or tips would you give to someone who wants to create a more learner centered space, either with respect to assessment or with respect to other aspects of the classroom? I mean, there's a lot.
00:14:39
Speaker
I mean, the very first words that came into my mind, and I was like, do I say it? Do I not say it? But we have to break the system. And so if somebody's listening to this and trying to figure out, how do I do this? My very first, you have to break that system. You have to. I don't know. And maybe it's just because I've tried those things, I've become curmudgeoned in this area that let's make that,
00:15:07
Speaker
fit into the system. And then we wonder why we're never truly making any process, any progress in these areas. It's because we keep trying to do that. We keep trying to take things and fit it into the system when the reality is the issue is the system that we've designed and created. If we break that and redo that, then we can get to the spaces that we need to be. So I mean, one thing, for example, like within these classrooms, if you're going to assess students, first of all, make the assessment
00:15:36
Speaker
a tool that you could truly provide feedback with. And I'm not saying get away from the certain structures of multiple choice. There's better pieces, but are you providing true feedback with your students? Think about that process right there.
00:15:54
Speaker
I teach a lesson, and then I'm giving an assessment. And it doesn't have to be at the end of the unit, and it shouldn't necessarily be at the end of the unit right there. There should be these check-ins, these checks for understanding along the way.
00:16:07
Speaker
But am I utilizing those opportunities to then have a conversation about what I've discovered? Am I doing individual check-ins or small check-ins and saying, OK, this is where you're at. These are next steps for you to get to this space. And I get that it will slow things down. I can't keep up the same pacing on my units and my scope and sequence at that rate. But I guess the question that I have to ask you is, is it more important
00:16:36
Speaker
for you as an educator to cover all the stuff in the hopes that some of your students will learn something? Or is it more important for you to slow down and make sure that all or a majority of your students are truly understanding, truly mastering, truly understanding the skills and the standards that you're getting at? Because I think that when we begin that journey,
00:17:03
Speaker
people start to see those things and say, wait a minute, what's happening in that space? Why are those students reaching different levels? What's happening in those spaces? And it causes conversations to occur. I get maybe somebody, it would be great if an admin said, hey, as a school, this is what we're doing. We're going to buck the system. But more often than not, what we're doing is we're talking to the educators in the classroom.
00:17:29
Speaker
So begin that. Find that space. Maybe ask for forgiveness at a later time. I don't know. Come into my school and do it if your principal gets upset with you. I'll bring you in because these are the types of things that we need. But it's bucking that system and saying, why am I here as an educator? Am I here to teach all this stuff in 180 days, like spray and pray?
00:17:53
Speaker
Or am I here to make sure that my kids, my students are truly developing into the learners that they're supposed to be? And you have to ask that question. And if the slatter is why you're there, then you should be OK living within your purpose and pushing back against the system and say, I'm going to do what's right for my kids. I'm going to push back on that system. Just slow it down. And there's a lot of things. But I think if we start there, that's one place to start. Slow that down a little bit.
00:18:24
Speaker
implement those assessments as feedback tools, as feedback loops, provide that feedback to your students to give very, very specific next steps and guide them on that journey towards those standards. And then see what happens.
00:18:40
Speaker
If it works for you, great. Share that out. I want to know. If it doesn't work for you, please come back. Say, Charles, you know what? You gave me this bad information. It didn't work. Let's have a conversation, but let's explore something else. The point is not to give up and just to say, I'm just going to go back to that, that, that spray and pray.
00:18:58
Speaker
I'm so glad you said that, Charles, because honestly, like sometimes when things don't work, it's almost more important that we debrief that than, I mean, yes, it's important for us to be sharing the things that are working, but we need to be so brave about sharing the things that don't work and normalizing the ability to make mistakes, have things not work, and then use that learning
00:19:25
Speaker
It's fantastic modeling, first of all, for kids for us, for them to see us in the same learner situation that they're in. But I think collectively as a group, teachers just put so much pressure on themselves to be right all the time that normalizing that what didn't work is a part of the process and we get better because of it. So I'm so glad that you mentioned that as some advice for teachers listening to us right now.
Creating Safe Spaces for Teacher Experimentation
00:19:54
Speaker
and start, you know, if I can. I think that also goes to the administrator.
00:20:00
Speaker
Teachers need to do that for students to model for the students, but they need to be given the space to be able to do that for themselves. And so as administrators and as an administrator, I'm talking to you administrators who might be listening. We need to do the exact same thing. Allow your teachers that space to maybe mess up. I mean, you're right. How many times do we we recognize and we praise those things that have gone well in our classrooms and we encourage teachers to bring that. But imagine giving time at a P.D.
00:20:28
Speaker
or wherever spaces that you share to say, what was a learning opportunity that I had this week? I mean, think about the shift in the culture within your space when teachers can become brave enough to say, I struggled this week in this area. Does anybody have any tips or ideas or strategies? Who else has gone through that? Or this is something I struggled with and this is the lesson that I learned because the reality is more often than not,
00:20:53
Speaker
That struggle is not an isolated incident. So it is up to us as administrators to create the spaces where that thing becomes normalized. Like, yes, I want my teachers to do it, but in order for them to do it, it is my responsibility to create that space.
00:21:09
Speaker
And I agree with that too. Like we got to walk the walk, not just talk the talk in terms of doing that. I know that that's something I struggled with as being like a middle person administrator, like in between building leaders as a curriculum leader and then higher central office folks and everyone not agreeing and at the same time trying to sort of
00:21:33
Speaker
you know, try to normalize the different shifts that we have in those spaces.
The True Value of Educational Influencers
00:21:38
Speaker
So as we wrap up, Charles, are there folks you'd like to shout out? Like who should our listeners be following, talking to, listening to, reading? Who would you recommend?
00:21:52
Speaker
starts it's a great question uh... it's a dangerous question because these are where people feel left out so i'm gonna try to avoid any specific names but i will say this if you go into edu spaces right i know threads is because i know threads is like the wild west right now uh... i have no idea what to do in there in that space but if you go into like twitter and facebook even tiktok and all of those faces
00:22:20
Speaker
There are amazing educators doing great work. And what I will say is just because an educator has 20,000 followers doesn't mean that what they have to offer is valuable necessarily to you, right? And I know, again, that these are the criticisms of where I start to enter into, but, you know, this is my sugar-free speech, right?
00:22:49
Speaker
Not too long ago on my podcast, I talked about the difference between edu celebrities and edu heroes, right, which ones are out there truly doing the work, trying to make the space better by saying I'm going to challenge, you know, misconceptions and ideas in this idea to make learning student center like we're talking about here.
00:23:10
Speaker
And how many are edu celebrities, right? The ones who are just really enjoying the fame and adding a ton of fluff and the applause and the, but really not doing much to improve the experiences of our students. So I would say that as you're going through your spaces to question that, right? Just don't, don't just look at the amount of followers. Don't just look at all the, like sit back and say, does this person have,
00:23:39
Speaker
what is meaningful to me. There's lots of groups out there. There are a lot of individuals out there.
00:23:48
Speaker
you know, just doing amazing work. And I'm proud of my edu cruise, right? And just like school, I feel like I have different edu cruise. There's a podcast crew, you know, that I get to connect with. As I was just mentioning, I was in Vegas with part of an edu crew. And we're all doing different areas of the work, but I think that's the powerful piece, right? That we all come together
00:24:16
Speaker
And we work on this, we do this. I mean, I talk about leadership and equity. I love the fact like, you know, star you and I, we've talked about this, this area of, you know, authentic assessments and shifts in grading, and that that bleeds into that equitable work, but that's not my specific area, right? So it's this idea that but combined,
00:24:39
Speaker
then we can have these powerful conversations. And so I would say, you know, find those people that you can connect with, right? If you're listening to this, feel free to follow me, right? Go through my followers, the people I'm following, and those that I'm following, you know, following me, and just find the people that resonate with you. Just because I think they're doing great work doesn't necessarily mean they're going to resonate with you. And so, again, this is like that student-centered space
00:25:08
Speaker
find who works for you. I hope I was able to answer that without necessarily specifically naming anybody and hurting anybody's feelings.
Connect with Charles Williams
00:25:17
Speaker
Yeah, that's perfect. And it's actually a great segue. So where can our listeners find you?
00:25:23
Speaker
Oh, all over. Feel free. I mean, Twitter is probably the best spot. If you follow me, I will try my best to follow you back. That like response that you get from me is not an automated response. That's me seeing that you followed me and like responding to you. Apparently, there's something that does it automatically. I don't know what that thing is yet. So me responding to you is me responding to you.
00:25:47
Speaker
And so I would love to connect via Twitter. We could have conversations, write, discuss things there. You could listen to the podcast. The podcast is all over on all the different platforms. It's called the counter narrative podcast. Episodes drop every single week. Star has been on there. So, you know, I'm maybe right. We'll do a segue and bring mastery learning right into into that space.
00:26:12
Speaker
I get to speak at conferences all over and there's a book out. The book is via Amazon. Thank you so much, Charles. This has been a really enlightening conversation and we are so happy to have had you on our podcast. Thank you for allowing me to be in the space and to share. Thank you so much.
00:26:38
Speaker
Thank you for learning with us today. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. If you'd like any additional information from the show, check out the show notes. Learn more about mastery portfolio and how we support schools at masteryportfolio.com. You can follow us on Twitter at mastery for all and on LinkedIn on our mastery portfolio page.
00:27:00
Speaker
We'd love for you to engage with us. If you'd like to be a guest on the show or know someone who would be an inspiring guest, please fill out the survey found in the show notes. And we'd love your feedback. Please write a review on your favorite podcasting app.