Transcript
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Speaker: Hello and welcome to Rest and Recreation. The Work-Life Balance podcast from Abbasida. I'm Michael Millward. Today I am talking to Ingrid Hüdal, the author of Sun Shining on Morning Snow.
Speaker: Ingrid is an author and a leadership coach who is dedicated to empowering individuals and organization. Her memoir, Sun Shining on Morning Snow, explores themes from a deeply personal angle, with experience spanning corporate giants like Meta and community-focused non-profits.
Speaker: Ingrid is based in San Francisco. I've visited San Francisco. If I go back, I will make my travel arrangements. with the Ultimate Travel Club because that is where I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays and all sorts of other travel related purchases.
Speaker: If you use the link in the description to join the Ultimate Travel Club you'll get an automatic discount on membership fees and you can access all of those same trade prices. Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of Rest and Recreation that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
Speaker: As with every episode of Rest and Recreation, we will not be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Hello, Ingrid Hugh-Dahl. Hello, Michael. If I say to you, give me a potted history of your life before the book, even a potted history could be several hours long because you have packed so much in. True, true.
Speaker: and But I could provide a context for how the book even began. That would be good. why did I write this memoir now in my mid-40s? And the reason was that I lost my mother to cancer.
Speaker: It was very, very challenging. Maybe four months after her passing, this energy, this kind of surge that felt like I must write my story. And in writing my story, I will also be sharing part of my mother's.
Speaker: This really helped me with grief, but it also brought me back into observing and healing my own wounds and being very curious around the experiences that I've brought to you in this book. The context also is that I was in a very high, demanding, stressful career after my mother's passing. I was also taking a break um from that career because I had a bit of an identity meltdown. i was like, who am I if I am not my job, my title?
Speaker: Like, of course, we have many identities that are not just our jobs and titles. ah Somehow, as rebellious and colorful as my life has been and I've chosen really bold decisions to live boldly and authentically, i found myself tethered that title and my identity was very much wrapped, my value was wrapped in that position.
Speaker: So by the time I start writing this book, I'm in another kind of less stressful role. I afford myself the space to spend part of my evenings and weekends writing. And I brought on a writing coach, Stacey Ennis, to support me in a six-month journey. So I wrote the first manuscript in about six months while working full-time, but again, having this flexibility to do so.
Speaker: Of course, it takes quite quite a lot of time after that to find a hybrid publisher and all the substantive editing, proofreading, copy editing, all of that takes a tremendous amount of time. But It's actually wonderful to see my book launched into the world as a paperback, an e-book, and an audio book that I narrate.
Speaker: It is a very personal, very honest, authentic book, and um it's very chatty. the it' ah The writing style is very much, I could be listening to you talking. It's almost like being on a train, two people opposite are having a conversation. I'm not really listening, but I'm hearing it Beautiful.
Speaker: i like that analogy. It's the openness and the frankness ah as you share your experiences and also bring in the experiences of of just you and your mother, but also your Chinese grandmother as well. Oh, yeah. She's quite the the lion. there Not a lioness, but like a big mane, male lion. I think I'd describe her as that, like roaring with her big mane of hair. Yes. Glad you brought her up. You do paint a very good pen pen picture of her. For me, there was this element of three generations of women across a time period and seeing the different attitudes towards life almost of the three generations.
Speaker: Yeah, you know, for my nine-eye, having had to flee China during the revolution and take with her her siblings and to sew in her clothes whatever valuable she could bring with her re-begin her life, the next phase, the next chapter in the Taiwan, I think really kind of... yeah sets the stage of what her version of having a warrior spirit, because we talk about a lineage of warrior spirits, like her mother before her fought in a war, in a revolution, unbinding her feet and like riding horses and shooting the enemy with two guns in her hands.
Speaker: So the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. My nine eye escapes, recreates this incredibly vibrant life running the local family based orphanage. And was a huge centerfold in society as a giver, as a powerful leader.
Speaker: And my mother, you know, becomes this tech pioneer who leaves her home, not even really speaking English very, very well, you know, her... Her dominant language is Mandarin. She comes as far as she can away from home to Rutgers University based in New Jersey on the East Coast of North America to study computer science and artificial intelligence. And this is in the 70s.
Speaker: um So very bold women making these big choices, but also complicated women, complicated characters with, you know, seeds of sadness and a yearning to be respected and seen, valued and heard to be loved truly without abandon and without having any kind of disruption in trust.
Speaker: And I think For all of us, we can agree that and that's a similarity that we can all experience. So sharing warrior spirit with ah the fallibility and the the insecurity and the reality of feeling weak or broken at times to expose that, I think, is is part of the journey in which we connect and heal together despite our differences.
Speaker: Yeah, and of course it was at university that your mother met your father. That's right. That's right. A white barbarian. White barbarian. Yes, as as he's called, and he couldn't be farther from that. you know He's a kind man with European descent roots who was a dancer, you know singer, and loved to cook.
Speaker: It is funny that, you know, this kind of sciencey, but are also very creative woman who's older meets my father and their their love and very bold love story, you know, 13 years after interracial marriage is legalized in this country, they seemingly naively don't care. They choose themselves, their love, despite the society that they're choosing to have to swim and navigate throughout the rest of their lives. in the state of New Jersey for two decades to follow.
Speaker: of course, that explains your name, doesn't it? It does. Ingrid Houdal. Yes. yeah Scandinavian Ingrid Houdal, the warrior spirit family lineage that is very predominantly female matriarch.
Speaker: yeah And it also explains the name of the book, Sun Shining on Morning Snow. I was born in in February, so it was, you know, wintry. And I believe the story goes that a while after i had an English name, she looked out on, you know beautiful sun blanketing the landscape. And there was a sparkling kind of crystal, that beautiful effect right in the morning where you see like the sun shining. on fallen snow, especially after a big storm has occurred. So it's like, wow, really thick and stunning.
Speaker: And she chooses this name, Tao Xueqing, which the translation to is essentially the picture of that. Sun Shining, I'm Running Snow. what's What's beautiful about using my name as the title is that the visual of that also bookends the story.
Speaker: And I hope that readers absolutely listen to the book or you know purchase the book because it's very poetic in that way, the name, the meaning, the visualization.
Speaker: Almost like um an alien sitting between two cultures, sitting between different countries. And of course, the challenge of your life, I suppose, is to actually forge your own identity from the different identities that that surround you. You could pick up on Scandinavian aspects, on Chinese aspects, Asian aspects, American aspects. And some people from New Jersey would say New Jersey and aspects of culture and life as well. Yes, yes. I think you're spot on in that feeling of being an alien, but also having multiple threads happening at the same time. And some of them contradictions, oftentimes contradictions.
Speaker: Yes. I mean, you seem to have been in some ways, the all-American girl, horse riding and all those sorts of things. And then for the time, at least, when people nowadays might think, oh yeah, that's a what type of thing, girls do that.
Speaker: But you were also breaking down from quite a young age, all sorts of various different stereotypes about what girls did and especially what girls from a non-white environment would do. That's well said. Yeah.
Speaker: You must have been so busy. I still am. ah Now that I'm in a different part of my phase of my life, There is something around going back into these moments that felt perhaps fleeting, maybe chaotic, disruptive, confusing, and slow down time.
Speaker: So there is sort of a vortex when you write to go back and to sit with yourself during these moments and tease out the contradictions, tease out the feelings. What was happening?
Speaker: What what year of time of year was it? What was i wearing? What else might have been going through my mind? And what's going through my mind now as somebody who is now sitting with this younger version of myself in her story, in memory, and also with a tremendous amount of empathy and affection and care you know it's almost like in writing this story i invite my warrior spirits adult self to come back in time and be with me as a fierce young person that can all happen at the same time which is pretty special
Speaker: So in many ways, now you are connecting with or being influenced by the influences that were influencing you as a teenager. Yeah, in many ways.
Speaker: You have to reconnect with that. And also you have to invite back rebellion and play and being new at something, not good at something. you know i think we're precious to what we're good at and, you know,
Speaker: Yeah. i mean, that's what I was thinking when you just said that, they're reconnecting with all of those things that are part of being a teenager, that ability to try new things, to challenge the status quo, to be rebellious and almost, I don't care. I'm doing it anyway.
Speaker: Yes, I know you said it's not a good idea, but I'm doing it anyway. Yeah. Yeah, I want to learn in the way that I'm going to learn, even if it hurts, even if you've learned it already. and what you brought up is really important about being interracial mixed with all those different cultures happening at the same time.
Speaker: You know, i I grew up as a young girl, very, very young, where adults were always asking me, like, what are you? Not who are you? Tell me more about, you know, you you appear different and I'd love, I'm curious about you. um it was very much like, what are you and where are you from?
Speaker: So when you talked about, like, you used the word alien, it kind of felt like, what ah what do I look like? I'm from outer space. Yeah. And then that rebelliousness would come in too, where sometimes I would challenge people.
Speaker: Like I am from the planet Earth. i am a woman. Because you know what the question is asking and why do you ethnically look different from everybody else here? And you should tell me. i' am in a position where I can demand to know. And if you don't give that up very quickly, people will express their anger and frustration because how dare you pause and not just tell me the answer.
Speaker: yeah i think slowing that xenophobia down or challenging it, teasing it out is Not safe always for every single person who might be listening to this, or perhaps people listening are like, oh, I've never had that experience. But for me, I had the ability because I looked ambiguous to play and slow things down and look at it at its moment of xenophobia ah would I would hope that people reading or listening to my my story really sit in my shoes and also see that for for what it is and to challenge it. Because we are all different.
Speaker: And oftentimes we are required, demanded, asked to fit in these neat little boxes that do not feel right for us. And sometimes we willingly learn then to, as if it's a cage, okay, now go back into your, this cage, okay, go back into that one. And we willingly learn. have learned to do that. And I i would say as a young person, i learned that I would not fit in any of the cages that already existed. So I had the freedom in some ways to walk around them and look at them for what they are.
Speaker: They're cages and they're constructed and we actually don't have to be in them. And I hope that hearing that reminds people that there is a different way of seeing a different way of being and choice in the matter. We have choices that we can make and beliefs can be changed.
Speaker: Do you remember a time or an instance, an event that led you to that conclusion? Or is it something that just evolved over time? Was there that light bulb breakthrough moment? Oh, man, I think it was over time.
Speaker: I could probably think of like bullying moments where I was told I didn't belong, moments where I was looking at people's faces and observing them in church or in high school in the cliques. For sure, as a musician,
Speaker: Dealing with a lot of sexism, but also a lot of freedom and rebellion, the contradictions of those things, but also the boxes that still, even within subculture, wanting people to be like, you're this or you're that.
Speaker: And if you're in between, we don't have a rule book for that. So being reminded of it in every single sphere helped me navigate where I wanted to be and where I chose to participate in a subculture or belonging and also didn't get too tied to it because I'm very used to not belonging. I'm used to being the outsider, but I choose to participate and belong in ways that feel safe and that I'm contributing to trust.
Speaker: And that participation, well, it's almost as if you've taken the exclusion that people gave you, we're not allowing you in here, and gone, well, that's all right. I didn't really want to be a member of that club. ah yeah and And that has given you this whole sort of freedom to be whoever and whatever you want to be. Because you have excluded me, you haven't bound me by your rules and regulations. But then there is one very short passage in the book, which ah made me laugh out loud, because there is a time when you're in college and you have a friend called Pony. You're discussing with her the reasons why you both joined this sorority. Oh, yeah, I understand the part. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And it's like Pony has made some sort of statement around that she joined the sorority to be around women. And you've, you come out with the statement, well, I'm not sure that that's the reason to do that. And she's very blatantly says, well, that's what I did. I wanted to meet women and that's where the women were. And it's, it's, it's like you're the rebel, you're the individual, the independent person. And,
Speaker: Yet at the same time, you're still quite conventional. Well, it's funny because that's actually we're reflecting on why she joined a sorority because i I think I was being a bit not judgmental, but like I would not join a sorority. That's not for me.
Speaker: Right. you joined a sorority? Like tell me more. And she was saying it was to meet women. And I was just so struck by that, the boldness of, you know, her boldness that she is a lesbian felt like she would meet women ah to date in a sorority. I just blew my mind because i I couldn't even imagine that that was a space for that, but she very much felt very comfortable that, yeah, that's why I did. um And I love her for it because, you know, you sort of meet bold Bold meets bold, like meets like, and Sarah, ah which is her name, Sarah Pony.
Speaker: She's such an amazing character in that she's also chosen. ah her life, despite the kind of conventions that are always being brought to any woman, any person at any time throughout history and saying, hmm, no, that's not me.
Speaker: And this is me. And this is what I choose to do with my life. So I was really amazed because i wouldn't have had the guts. And I certainly didn't realize I was queer until after college, but I wouldn't have had the guts to join what I imagine is predominantly white society.
Speaker: ah sisters who are probably predominantly straight and say, ooh, isn't this a candy land for possible lesbian connections? Like that was very much Sarah and it was not me.
Speaker: You are very self-aware of the type of person that you are and appear to have been from quite a young age. Yeah. Like in this moment, it's funny. I could be both a bold, thrashing musician on stage would be quite shy. Yeah. I think living with those realities too is just being very honest. Yeah. Like I'm not trying to project her perform this certain version of myself beyond my choices in doing that throughout my musical journey, but I'm very much still myself. And, you know, even in the book, there's, there's parts where on tour I'm like terrified. Cause you know, there's women like, I want to sleep with her. And I'm like, i don't want to sleep with anybody. i actually want to sleep. um I'd like choice here. I'm i'm quite tired. And, and,
Speaker: People, I think, are so surprised that, you know, this character that they see on stage is not necessarily a character to behold or or wants um that kind of attention. Certainly, you know, I think people...
Speaker: will read the story and realize, wow, there's a lot of about being a musician that is not what I imagine it to be. And it and it can be very hard and grueling and tiring and you could be hungry, um underslept and and not interested in any kind of like physical connection or and anything that we imagine this character to behold might want.
Speaker: You paint a picture of the way in which fans or treat artists as quite dehumanizing. Yes, and times. you know You're a commodity, a performer, a commodity. you have I bought the album, ah the record, I paid for the ticket. I can treat you however I want. And plenty are quite shy and introverts, self-proclaimed. And I'm not an introvert, but I've met a lot of and um musicians, quite famous musicians now.
Speaker: who are very, very introverted and shy, and they have to switch into this you know persona ah to get through the evening to perform. And it's just interesting, the history of of performance, ah if you look at that and you're like, hmm,
Speaker: it's a touchy subject and you know, really we're all humans having an experience. We all have our backgrounds, our families, our cultures, you know, we need rest and recreation and rest and recreation looks different for each person.
Speaker: But certainly archetypes um are people too, and they need to be broken as well. So i I see that as rebellious to also confront and challenge our beliefs and our assumptions and perceptions about people. And that's what I often do in the work of leadership development within HR. And certainly um as a leadership coach, I think it's so important for us to have constant constant effort in our self-awareness, our social awareness, and how we manage our relationships. It's so critical that we never let off the gas of doing that in ways that are gentle, that are curious, that are trying to truly connect and relate across differences in ourselves and with other people.
Speaker: Yeah. Two points that come out of that. The first one, you made me think about how important it is to live life with a purpose and to have a purpose in the majority of things that we do. So if you have, for example, as a rock musician, if you have a talent, but you are shy, you still know that in order to
Speaker: utilize your talent, explore your talent. You're going to have to do things which might be uncomfortable because you're intrinsically a very shy person. right But if you want to achieve something, if you want to do something and live your life in a particular way, it's about deciding how you're going to do that and all the different aspects and how they all come together to create the life that you want, not the life that other people expect you to have.
Speaker: Right. That's right. And double down on that last point. You know, I had a lot of pressure, especially from my mother to live a certain life that she wanted. And the life that she wanted was in direct violation, perhaps of my queer sexuality. You know, she really wanted me to be in a straight relationship. She very much pressured me to have children, um even when I was well married with a wife, but we had decided to be child free by choice.
Speaker: Those expectations can be really harmful and and difficult. And my choice in my rebelliousness and boldness and kindness and love to my mother was to be very honest with her.
Speaker: And to say, look, you have cancer. There will be a time when you're no longer here. And if I have a child just to make you happy for the short amount of time that you might have with said child, I ultimately, with my wife, who we both agreed not to have children, are left with this amazing individual.
Speaker: Do you really want us to have to go through that? Because the entire rest of our lives, will be impacted by this one pressure point that you are really, really pushing on. And, you know, that's not the like most fun conversation I've ever had with my parent, but I think it helped my mother really realize that this ask, this demand,
Speaker: would really impact our lives, not for the better. So she let off the gas. um And certainly, you know, she was so upset. When I was um really very much have had come out and had girlfriends, she had blinders on, she did not want me to be a lesbian. She very much allowed herself to believe that this was a phase. So it was not until I was engaged to be married to my now wife, Courtney, who's phenomenal, fantastic individual.
Speaker: My mom really, really reared up and said, no, like you cannot do this. You must be straight. You must get married. You must have kids. I was like, wow. And it created this massive fissure in our relationship where we argue there was a lot around like, you know, this is similar to your experience having been an interracial family. This is like in a direct parallel,
Speaker: I understand you probably are feeling fear around society and how it would respond to me, but I've got that. We didn't talk for a while, and she ah was experiencing all these things a bit alone. You know, her illness just with my father. She lived in Taiwan at the time, and it was really hard.
Speaker: But what's beautiful about choosing the truth and your boldness and still having a big capacity for love, forgiveness, and empathy our journey reconnects and transforms in such a beautiful, beautiful joint healing way that I hope that story that I've shared in Sunshining and Morning Snow inspires listeners and readers.
Speaker: Yes, I think so. I think so. I get the impression from the book as well that you can recognize quite a lot of your mother in yourself. Yes. Thank goodness. What a gift.
Speaker: It is, isn't it? It's a gift ah that good, bad, cantankerous, all sorts of various different things, but the the best part of your parent becomes one of the best parts of you. Yeah, I love that I have the privilege of having such a complicated rebellious yet conforming um all of the complications that we were talking about earlier in my parent and you know she lived in a different generation but it's surprising how it's not that different nope no not at all in what right like from the career wise to society to all of it but i love that i have my own experience and who i am that's different when i reflect back
Speaker: I wish that we had had more connections to share more intimately about what we were experiencing. You can look at the experiences of your mother and your grandmother, and they are different to your experiences. But also, there's so much similarity across the generations that I'm sure creates ah an immensely strong bond. Yes, yes, it really does. It is an interesting experience to have flown into that dynamic. I think we'd be so all be surprised with how that can go.
Speaker: Very much so. It's an opportunity to spend some rest and recreation time together and do some proper learning and understanding about people, their lives and the influence that that has had on your own life.
Speaker: You know, Ingrid, it's a great book. Thanks, Michael. It is The sun Sun Shining on Morning Snow, a memoir of identity, loss, and living boldly. Highly recommended by me. Not that that matters to the world, I'm sure.
Speaker: I loved reading it and I have really thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. And i do appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Thank you, Michael. Likewise.
Speaker: I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abusida. In this episode of Rest and Recreation, I have been having a conversation with Ingrid Hugh Dahl, the author of Sun Shining on Morning Snow.
Speaker: You can find out more information about both of us at abusida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. I'm sure that you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of Rest and Recreation as much as Ingrid and I have enjoyed making it.
Speaker: So please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abusida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
Speaker: Until the next episode of Rest and Recreation, thank you for listening and goodbye.
