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India Booked | Krishnadevaraya of Vijayanagara
118 Plays4 years ago
RAYA: Krishnadevaraya of Vijayanagara, written by author Srinivas Reddy, is the definitive biography of India’s first truly global leader and one of the greatest kings who changed the course of Indian history. In this episode of India Booked, host Ayushi Mona and author Srinivas Reddy engage in an ardent conversation about Deccan history, the life of Krishnadevaraya and the town of Hampi.
Srinivas Reddy is a scholar, translator and musician, and his previous books include translations of Krishnadevaraya’s Amuktamalyada and Kalidasa’s Meghadutam and Malavikagnimitram.
The podcast delves into a discussion about caste, tolerance and the sensitivities around it, the link between power and value of culture and how the different perspectives and romanticism of the dynamic Indian history are put together to shape its totality.
This episode contains two very vivid excerpts from the book on the routines of the emperor Krishnadevaraya and the striking scenes of warfare, including a translation of one of the beautiful poems written by Raya himself.
By the end, you will be compelled to pick this book up right away and start reading, or pack your bags and go visit Hampi, either of which will give you an extensive idea about the life of Krishnadevaraya and the historic city of Vijayanagara. Tune in now!
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Transcript
Introduction to India Booked Podcast
00:00:11
Speaker
I'm your host Ayushi Mona and you're listening to India Booked, a podcast where we lean into the idea of India through its literature and we speak to authors who bring this to life. Hello, everyone. I am Ayushi Mona, your host on India Booked, a podcast where we look at India through the eyes of its literature.
Significance of 'Raya' by Srinivas
00:00:39
Speaker
I cannot think of a book that is a testament to what I seek to do through this podcast as much as Raya by Srinivas because Srinivas has written a fabulous biography which
00:00:54
Speaker
has, I think, is really one of the first, if not the only books in English that puts across the story of Krishnadev Raya in public hands in the form of accessible literature.
Interview with Author Srinivas
00:01:10
Speaker
So, Srinivas, first of all, welcome to the show. It is an honor and a pleasure to have you. Thank you very much, Aishi. I really am honored to be here and so happy to speak to you and your listeners and
00:01:24
Speaker
I mean, just to say also what you said about the book, I really appreciate because that is certainly something that I was attempting to do and I'm glad that I guess it worked.
00:01:41
Speaker
And I am now about some 20 episodes into the podcast. And my first episode on the podcast was an episode on Akbar. And I had invited Mani Mukhtar to speak about Akbar.
Comparisons with Other Historical Figures
00:01:56
Speaker
And it was about again, and I'm drawing parallels because it's part of my own reader's journey. Of course, it has nothing to do with your writer's journey or the listener's journey. But for me,
00:02:08
Speaker
That book was also a very provocative book to read in the sense that I had this very formulaic Mughal history taught to me by way of schooling, right? And then I read this book where Akbar is a person, but his governance and military strategies and way of being is contrasted in, say, Mani Mughza's book in the context of present day India.
00:02:38
Speaker
And then I read Raya and frankly, I was slightly intimidated by reading Raya because I didn't, I hadn't read anything about Deccan history in my history books. It wasn't taught to me in my curriculum. So for me, unlike say Akbar and Aurangzeba Gandhi, Nehru, you know, this is something I was reading for the first time when I was, you know, just even before, you know,
00:03:06
Speaker
putting down my thoughts, I was like, oh, I hope I pronounce this right. And I hope that my understanding in a first reading is astute enough.
Uncovering Deccan History Narratives
00:03:15
Speaker
What do you think, really, for somebody getting introduced to the history of Deccan, what aspects of it do you think that this book very nicely segues into? And I want to ask you that instead of telling you about the things I learned, because this is written in the context of time, it's written in the context of literary evidence,
00:03:42
Speaker
So what all narratives of Deccan's history were you piecing together when you started working on the book?
Evolution of History Writing in India
00:03:50
Speaker
Well, you've raised many very important topics. So let me first address the basic issue of history, history writing,
00:04:02
Speaker
history education in India, let us say, post-independence. And what you have, you know, you have a standardized kind of, you know, as a nation grows, they have to have a national story. And so these certain kind of stereotypes of historical markers get put into place, you know, Akbar the Great and the Mughals, you know, the South, something totally different is happening, whatever it is. And as you're saying, some of these basic formulations that we have
00:04:28
Speaker
are just getting in place, and that's what you get taught in school, and that's what it is. But then the whole discipline of history, at least in the Western discourse and how we use it now, it is not iti hasa, this is not iti hasa I'm discussing now, history. History as a discipline is all about looking at those formulations and seeing how they change over time. And that's when you get the discipline of historiography. So historiography just means
00:04:57
Speaker
history of history, you know, like how did we look at our history in the 50s, in the 60s, in the 70s, 90s, and now Abhi. So part of all of the writing of this book was to address that kind of historiographic imagination of Vijayanagara, the South, and in this case the Deccan, which as you said,
Deccan's Role in Indian History
00:05:15
Speaker
you know, if we definitely, if we look at basic kind of histories of India, there's, you know, the great kind of kings of the South, like Rajaraja and all those guys, Pallavas, Cholas, Pandias, all of that stuff. And then you have the North with the Mughals and, you know, so you have the constant North-South divide, whether it's linguistic or whatever historic in India that we have, plays out in our understanding of history. And so the Deccan being literally the middle of that,
00:05:42
Speaker
You know, I mean, technically, I think Deccan comes from election, which, you know, it means south. But anyway, the Deccan, as we understand today, is basically the middle part. The deep south is something different. And so the Deccan, bringing the Deccan, as they say, a lot of studies have been happening the last like 10, 15 years on.
00:05:58
Speaker
and you know all those scholars, and I quote them extensively in the book. You know, repositioning the Deccan in the center of Indian history, in a sense. You know, we took the center out of, the geographic center out of the historical picture, and I'm gonna try to put it back. And what that allows, and this is the best part, is that because it's in the center, you can then get perspectives on both the north and the south while you're studying like what was happening in this very unique
Connection to Krishnadevaraya
00:06:26
Speaker
period and geographic area it does and um while and you know of course i did say that it's in the context of the land and and i think you've put it so astutely your objective uh she knows of course is not to just recount a series of events or talk about the region right your book is obviously focused on um the portrait of a king here right where did your personal fascination uh begin and and you've
00:06:56
Speaker
If I'm not, again, wrong, you translated Krishan Devaraya's epic poem as part of your doctoral thesis, right? And you've been working on this for so many years, and I am very fascinated with this kind of infatuation, if I may call it, with a subject that carries you to read so much and learn so much and write about it.
00:07:23
Speaker
And so single early, right? But I'm sure for you, the genesis was somewhere or you picked up something and how even that personal interest evolved, right? From the beginning to while you were working with your editorial team. So perhaps now where you are in your understanding and perception after, you know, the books being read by so many people and so many people have discussed it with you. Right.
00:07:49
Speaker
It's a great question. It's a fairly straightforward answer. I mean, you know, you work in academia and you have to kind of get slotted into your thing. You're a historian if you've got a PhD in history, you're this if you've got, you know, it's very siloed out academia. As much as they love to talk about interdisciplinarity, most places are not interdisciplinary. And the sad thing is knowledge is interdisciplinary. But anyway, my point is that
00:08:17
Speaker
My training, my love, my basic passion of all of this stuff is classical literature. I read text. That's what I do. I love it. I love to translate poetry. And, you know, without getting into a large discussion about Telugu literature and what that means in regard to, you know, Indian literature or world literature writ large, the poem of Krishnadevaraya, you know, this amazing king, like the greatest king of the South, writes also
00:08:45
Speaker
arguably the greatest Telugu poem that's ever been written. I mean, it's really, it's a fantastic and truly singular work in so many ways. And so, you know, my thesis work was more on the literary aspect of it, although, of course, you have to do the history stuff. So my passion for it all came from reading his work, his poetry, and being
00:09:07
Speaker
just enamored by the depth of not only beauty that he could see in the world, but also the spiritual longing of this man who was also a great warrior and king and all of that coming together. I mean, he's really like, he's a Renaissance man of the highest order and it's very easy to fall in love with someone like that.
Potential Media Adaptations and Cultural Visits
00:09:26
Speaker
So I remember when I finished
00:09:29
Speaker
you know, my thesis and other things I wrote about it. And then I finished this biography, I sent it to my gurus. And both of them said, you know, you must have been Raya in your previous life. And I feel that way. So I mean, when you read someone's literature for that long, you really feel like you're getting a perspective deep into their psyche. And that to me is also what makes this book special is because
00:09:51
Speaker
That's my main perspective is to try to take this from his eyes, how he was seeing the world, how he was making decisions. And I feel like those feelings, emotions, you know, negotiations that he had going on are most deeply reflected in his literature. So in that sense, it's really the literature that drives me more than anything else.
00:10:14
Speaker
I'm so glad you use the phrase renaissance man because you know there is this this picture of you know a king as I say just a warrior or but with such a fascinating portrait right because there's obviously this perception of how Krishnadev Raya is painted and and there's this whole you know oh this is the iconic king of south India or the the greatest king or
00:10:40
Speaker
And then there is so much that obviously about him being a shrewd statesman, but also a brilliant poet, a benevolent ruler, the cultural life at his court, right? The kind of, just the dynamism of that era, I think it's very difficult to not be fascinated by it. I also felt a sense of sadness, if I may say so,
00:11:08
Speaker
that it's not available in more visually elaborate fonts. For people to consume, this is at large, right? And for this to be really consumed in a more mass form. What I meant, I think, let me just sort of explain what I meant, was that I wish this would be like a full-fledged docu-series on Netflix or a film very soon.
00:11:35
Speaker
We're working on it. We're working on it, Aishi. But, you know, just to touch on that, what you said, because, well, you said two really interesting things and we can return to the loss and the romanticism of loss in a second, because that is a very important piece of this puzzle.
00:11:52
Speaker
In terms of visually, I mean, the thing I'm always telling people is, you know, you can go to Hampi. You can go to Vijayanagara. It's alive. It's so amazing. And it's beautiful. It's one of the best archaeological sites that you can visit in India, because unlike, you know, you go to Taj Mahal, you go to whatever, this one or that one, you know, you pay a fee, there's the ASI's little thing, and then you walk around and bus forget. But here,
00:12:17
Speaker
You know, there is stuff like that there, but then you just can sprawl. It's sprawling. It's a whole city, you know, that's just there amongst the rocks. I mean, I really recommend if you read this book and then go to it, Humpy, you'll have a great time.
00:12:30
Speaker
I was actually going to say this and this is you know one of the things that I've scribbled in my notebook and I was going to say this at the end and I'm so glad we're even saying this is the beginning is to probably read the book, start reading the book right before you go to Hampi and then read it on your way traveling there and wrap it up by the time I'm done there.
00:12:52
Speaker
So that's what Will Dalrymple said that. He's like, you got to read this before you go to Humpy. And I was like, yeah, I know. Because it's true. Like, you can read other books on Humpy. You can see beautiful picture books, all wonderful. I mean, incredible work. But a lot of them fail to capture, and this is maybe where the loss gets in, the romanticism of it all, the poetry of it all. You know, history can become so dry.
00:13:17
Speaker
When you actually look at the history of this time, it was nothing but dry. It was just so lush and rich and colorful. We lose that sometimes in historical writing, in more drier kind of historical analysis or whatever, but the stuff is really vibrant. And even though Vijayanagara Hampi destroyed and it's been abandoned,
00:13:39
Speaker
forgotten city and all this stuff it's not if you actually go there that's the haunting life of it is that is that romanticism of like a ruin you know and and and it only intensifies the the emotions because you know you can still see so many of these things you can go to the places exactly that i'm talking about all these places and it's beautiful and and and just to finish i mean i know i can talk a lot about all these things but
00:14:05
Speaker
You know, the real core point of it all is, and this is what makes India different than other places, maybe any other place on earth, is that we have a very different sense of history. I mean, the whole discipline that I'm talking about, this history discipline, this is not an Indian thing. This is a Western thing that we've adopted and, you know, it has very good things and that's important. But the real history, the real Indian history,
00:14:30
Speaker
is in places like Hampi, living places. People still worship at that same Virupaksha temple. You can still go take the arthi there. So, I mean, history is not in books in India. History is just the lives of people. People are history in India and those places. So we have to go there to understand Indian history. Otherwise, no good.
Western vs. Indian Historical Perspectives
00:14:51
Speaker
I think that's
00:14:53
Speaker
that's absolutely true and some of this of course is truly unfortunate right because the kind of schooling systems that we have I mean
00:15:03
Speaker
and this is true I think for almost everywhere that you know countries are colonized like you know say the curriculum that the French pushed on on Vietnamese children in you know in two languages and and a very sort of sanitized by the book version right this date this happened this date that happened is also the kind of curriculum that
00:15:26
Speaker
schools and convents and consequently what is perceived as a high quality of good education in India, whereas really and I think oral history, which again is a little problematic, I don't know if problematic is the right word, Srinivasan.
00:15:43
Speaker
help me because I'm just thinking out loud as we talk. Bazaar history, right? Or certain perceptions of history or history that gets circulated in popular perception. I think one good example perhaps in the context of Raya is the Tenali, a Raman table that exists, right? For me as a child, I was introduced to that via a cartoon network, right? Because I'm a decade toddler.
00:16:08
Speaker
And then you know that, oh, there's this king also, you know, but then that dynamic becomes very like an Akbar, beautiful dynamic. And there's a certain whatever, almost frivolous sort of understanding, which unfortunately doesn't get deepened with time. It's a perfectly acceptable introduction for a child, right, to storytelling. But as one sort of grows older, it doesn't really add to a nuanced understanding of
00:16:38
Speaker
the Indian ethos of being right. So I'm just your thoughts. I'm just speaking my mind really. I think, yes. I mean, I think the critical point that you said, uh, you know, these of you, these Vietnamese education, let's say by the French, that's British education in India. I mean, the, the real thing that's happening, okay. Yes. It's a different epistemological kind of frame coming in. That's one thing.
00:17:04
Speaker
But the deeper thing, and the more, as you say problematic thing is traditional knowledge becomes devalued. And this other form of knowledge this other form of history this other form of knowing the world is valued promoted and made
00:17:21
Speaker
the kind of gateway to prosperity, success, and flourishing of whatever kind. And so the grandma's stories are devalued. You don't want to hear your grandma's story. You better read a book. Why would you listen to your grandma? Or why would you want to watch some little cartoon children's stories about all this stuff? You need to be reading like a big history book that some British wrote.
00:17:44
Speaker
So, what I do in the book, I mean, you know, I read all that stuff from Amrityatakana to, you know, everything in between to the most PhD, whatever guy. And then they're all the same to me, actually. I mean, because everything, all of those elements are contributing to a consciousness about a person because, you know, our understanding of a historical person, a figure or a period or whatever,
00:18:11
Speaker
It's a collective thing. I mean, history is done collectively. I mean, people write books, but it's about a kind of imagination that has been generated and becoming part of the collective. So maybe for Indians, we had an imagination of, you know, this jokey character like Birbo, like it an Ali Raman, and then there was this great kind of smart, funny, witty king also involved.
00:18:32
Speaker
You know, so you understood that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But then we need to buttress it with, let's take now a class excursion to Hampi for one week, study Vijayanagara history, visit other sites nearby. And I give my history students a class like that. And, you know, not everyone can go to Vijayanagara. Any village in India has some historical place near it. They should know that. We should teach that as part of our history. So, you know, like you said, it all has to do with education.
00:19:00
Speaker
the value of different kinds of education and, well, not to be very negative, but, you know, I still teach in India, you know, teaching right now class in India and, you know, a lot of the students, they love this, but, you know, that's, this is just one class that they get to take to actually look into something interesting while they have to finish up their, this one, that engineering, this one, maths, and get a good job.
Cultural Patronage of Indian Kings
00:19:24
Speaker
We're not valuing that. We're not giving young people opportunity. We're not giving scholarships for history post-docs. We're not, this is what we need to be doing. Sorry, you don't get me started about all this stuff. If you're born to Shinoas, I think it's a great, I think we should do a separate episode on it. And I think there's a lot of merit about talking about it also.
00:19:46
Speaker
But just to sort of come back on what we were discussing earlier, right, is this whole concept, right, of the Indian kings being like a Kavi Raja, right, or somebody who was enlightened both in the culture and arts as much as governance, celebrated, like, you know, there's this perception that Napoleon or Henry VIII, right, you only sort of have this very testosterone-fueled
00:20:13
Speaker
sort of descriptions of them, of wars, of, I mean, it's just very, very, it just panders to a particular image, right? But the Indian way of things is different, right? Because Indian kings and the Indian way of court is very close in time to say religion, for instance, culture, celebrations, and festivals, and our ethos in the East is quite different, and which is why the whole
00:20:39
Speaker
the Kavi and the Raja and the Poet King out of Philosopher's King or whatever and enlightened Monash. And Raya I think in this one of the most interesting cases because not only was he himself a poet, right? His court-housed poets in Tamil, Kannada, Sanskrit, right? And a bunch of classical Telugu writers and he called them Ashta Digajas. Again, my pronunciation is something that I'm a little wary of.
00:21:07
Speaker
So, I mean, I hear kind of what you're saying, but then again, you're saying, look, this philosopher king is also a Western idea, the whole enlightened king, it also comes from the West. But both of those kinds of traditions were kind of, you know, those were classical ideas for anybody, you know what I mean? Like, you know, you look at Marcus Aurelius, so like the Christian kings of the, you know, the medieval period,
00:21:30
Speaker
They looked to Marcus Aurelius, but they weren't Marcus Aurelius. Like you said, they're dealing with all this other stuff and religious disputes. So this period gets kind of mixed up in that way. But I think the ideal is there kind of both the East and the West and in different formations outside of that thing.
00:21:49
Speaker
But again, what you're saying about him having the court and that's also, again, we have to see, and this is kind of my new thing is, you know, everyone's, and it's true. I love Raya. I'm a big fan. But honestly, these days now I've been going back to kind of critique, you know, my own kind of romantic vision of Vijay Nagar. I mean, so when you have
00:22:10
Speaker
Vijayanagara you have now it's like this elite power thing going on there is huge empire tons of money and the same thing what is being valued so Sanskrit pandits were there for sure but he also had these regional poets so this is the moment when regional vernacular languages are now getting court support and they're rising in terms of their prestige so in the old days you know if you were a great poet you had to write a kavya in Sanskrit and that would be it but now
00:22:40
Speaker
you could write a kavya in Telugu, a great, you know, Pravanda, and you would be considered, you know, wow, amazing, like, you know, all these great poets that were at his court. So what I'm trying to say is that power of any kind, whether we kind of glorified it as I think I do, I have to admit to that, and there is a beauty to it. There's a romance to it. That's what I'm getting at. And certainly the kind of enlightened leadership that at least Raya was doing is not present today, man. I don't see any of that right now. So that's one of the other reason of,
00:23:09
Speaker
where we forget these leaders and what they represent. But anyway, getting back to the point, I'm just saying that power and this kind of value of culture are two very linked up things. And governments do have a big role to play in what kinds of things are valued. And our government right now could be doing more, like I'm saying, to create these opportunities for history postdocs or whatever it may be. But we're not aligning ourselves that way, you know what I mean? And that's a political thing.
00:23:39
Speaker
Absolutely. I am just finding Sheena Vastra. I think I actually heard this in one of your interviews and I want to sort of bring that here. I think you spoke very eloquently in one particular interview that I heard which I'm putting out. Maybe not look at India as a mentioned part where everything sort of goes and loses shape and form and size
00:24:08
Speaker
but to sort of look at it as a salad bowl where like every vegetable sort of retains its very own crisp identity and contributes without really changing shape or form or adhering to like a common idea. That example is what I was thinking of when you said right now the kind of differences or creating opportunities for postdoc.
00:24:31
Speaker
Yeah, I mean that that is the model like my guru used to always say India is a cellular culture and he used to say this like a very kind of cryptic way, but then as I.
00:24:43
Speaker
you know, grew up, I mean, I really started to understand what any, you know, a cell, a cell is a self contained thing, you know, it has a nucleus, it has these, you know, mitochondria, whatever, it's just doing all this stuff, a cell can't just function on its own. And then again, there's different kinds of cells. So there's a liver cell. So liver cells get together with a bunch of other liver cells, and then they can
00:25:03
Speaker
be a liver and they can contribute to the whole body as a liver and so like it's like that like different communities are in India are like different cells they make different organs they make different systems and that's what creates India. India is all about that and and the problem we have today is that that kind of being
00:25:24
Speaker
is not on the table as an option. You know what I'm saying? Because the whole idea of a nation, as it has been conceived, which is, again, a tiny little paltry idea that came about a couple hundred years ago or whatever, the nation itself defies, India defies the idea of a nation. And what we're always dealing with is trying to shove
00:25:50
Speaker
our culture into this narrow vision of what a nation is.
Social Transformation and Diversity in India
00:25:54
Speaker
So that's why we're always acting. I mean, if you read the Constitution, you can't even understand what it says. It says it's a republic, it's a democracy, then he throws in secular, then he throws in this thing, because we're everything. And you should be able to be anything you want in India. That was the whole point. And if you read Raya, I mean, it was thriving, that kind of ethos. I mean,
00:26:14
Speaker
Religion, you do whatever you want. Within Hinduism, you want to pray to Shiva, you want to play Vishnu, you want to play to Kali, no problem. Nobody cares. You do whatever you want. That's fine. We're still here together in a society, so there's certain things that we kind of have to like work out. Now, whenever I make this comment, then every other side will say, oh, you're glorifying everything. What about caste? What about, nah.
00:26:39
Speaker
Well, caste is also something that's a dynamic thing. Look at Raya. Raya is from a completely peasant background. And this guy became the king of the most huge empire. How did it happen? Well, because things are dynamic too, even in caste. So we have to remember our history, the dynamism of our history, you know.
00:27:00
Speaker
true and he ruled for like two decades right so it's not that once he became king people were like oh this dude's a peasant and he doesn't belong to the top of an hour so off with his head right this is such a great great point you know and of course talking about caste is extremely sensitive now right because much like everything there is like a very black or white sort of
00:27:27
Speaker
No problem here. It's not black and white. That's the whole point. If your mind is a dialectic mind like that, you will never be able to see brown. And that's what we are. We're just this other brownness. It's very mixed and you have to be okay with that. And then once you're okay with it, then you start to celebrate it.
00:27:47
Speaker
And that's where the potential of India is what it's all about. I mean, there were times, I mean, there's still times, there's still communities now. If it's a Muslim holiday, all the Hindus will celebrate. If it's holy time, all Muslims are celebrating. If some things went over to the Jains, then nobody eats meat that day. Whatever it is. Like, it's not tolerance.
00:28:06
Speaker
It's not tolerance. Tolerance is a bad thing. Tolerance means that you don't like something, so you're tolerating it. That's not what we're here. We're here to celebrate with you. We're here to rejoice with you. We're here to be a community together that allows people to do whatever the hell they want to do. As long as you're not hurting anybody, then it's fine. So if we can get back to that kind of thinking, man,
00:28:30
Speaker
will be a much better place and will be a model for how the rest of the world can deal with diversity, which in many parts of the world they didn't have to deal with, but now they do because we're in this global world.
00:28:42
Speaker
Yes. In fact, we've grappled with this so much more before other parts of the world, right? Because the kind of heterogeneity we've dealt with for centuries and centuries is something that, you know, in this world, right, where, you know, you actually am so glad you all said that so vociferously, Srinivas, I'm going to totally clip that out and make it into the trailer for this episode. You're going to get me in trouble.
Bhakti Movement as a Counter-Narrative
00:29:13
Speaker
No, I mean, I think you nailed the right point, is that basically we've been dealing with this from the beginning of what we can understand as our civilization in India. There was never any force that was trying to define the society as a whole. Now, people will say, well, what about the whole Burmanic, you know, Chaturvarana, all this stuff? Yeah, that's one line. And it was a dominant line, and we can get into that big discussion. That's a big discussion. I'm happy to do that.
00:29:37
Speaker
some other time. But there were many other lines too. I mean, the whole, like, and this is the example I always give in the literature, um, like Bhakti. Bhakti and it's all, it's hundreds of years in different languages is nothing but that other counter stream. And that's how Indian culture works. There's always like that tension that creates that dynamism. Anyway, this gets into a lot of other stuff that I won't talk about now, but
00:30:03
Speaker
I know I can totally imagine how this conversation will get into hot waters with everyone who thinks that they know better because now we all have like
00:30:15
Speaker
this again dialectic school of thought which is how we never were earlier but more and more we have conversations in terms of dualities and we fix certain adjectives or certain nouns on how we want to talk about the other and then there is just a certain school of thought but it's really I don't know if that's how I've experienced
Complexity of Indian Identity
00:30:38
Speaker
the funky growing up because even if you're an atheist right you still celebrate festivals you still don't mind going to a temple and a temple is very much a place of worship and community
00:30:50
Speaker
Right, so a Westerner will come and say, what, Ayush, you just said you're an atheist, and now you're going and doing this temple, and then you're going to see some Sufi saint, and this doesn't make any sense. And you're like, yeah, I'm an atheist, and I go to the temple, and I go to the mosque. You got a problem with that? Then they don't understand it. That's the problem. People can't understand this epistemology. It's an epistemological issue.
00:31:15
Speaker
And to change someone's epistemology, you have to break down their entire world view. That's the problem. So it's very difficult for, you know, to explain this. No, I can imagine. And which is why, you know, a lot of, and once you sort of have this worldview that's
00:31:36
Speaker
cemented right it's very difficult to break out of it until and especially more difficult when you neither have personal influences and I think to a certain extent we now encourage
00:31:54
Speaker
uh thinking in in uh you know in this bilingual by do well i don't know whatever binary sort of vision right and we don't reject it in our media we don't reject it in our cultural uh consumption and we don't reject it in our families because we think uh because we don't think that for instance somebody who is a
00:32:16
Speaker
And I think this is a very funny example maybe because I'm like for instance the CEO of Goldman Sachs is a DJ. I can't imagine for the life of me any top industrialist in India or DJing on the weekends in their 50s and that being considered like normal because
00:32:35
Speaker
this sort of because when you think of somebody as oh a greedy industrialist who's just out to lobby the government you just think of them in that light and then you think of somebody who's like a an activist and then posts about something on social media then it's that so so i think it's it's very challenging definitely to talk about these things because because i think we're all just consuming a lot more of what we want to hear as opposed to
00:33:04
Speaker
Just being open to discussion.
Critique of Social Media's Impact
00:33:06
Speaker
Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, what you're saying is exactly right. And the bottom line is you have to turn off your phone. You have to get off Facebook and you have to go interact with people. And once you start doing that.
00:33:20
Speaker
then you'll actually let those epistemological things get broken down because when you're on Facebook and Twitter and Gitter and all this useless junk, to be honest, I'm not on any of that. And people think I'm stupid, but that's fine. I think that stuff makes people stupid because like you said, all it does is further, you know, retrench your epistemological posts. Instead of opening you up, you don't get different perspectives. You're just hearing what you want to hear. You're just in this echo chamber of life and then
00:33:49
Speaker
there's all this other life going on like the chaiwala and this guy and that guy and go talk to them be with them and then you you'll understand that the world is very different place so my recommendation is what you're saying is correct it's been intensified massively in the last 20 years like to a degree that we've never seen in human history and the key is divesting from social media perhaps she was i think um i'm the next
Krishnadevaraya's Political and Military Life
00:34:17
Speaker
part of you know my conversation that I want to um to ask chronologically right uh that certain part of the book it is really based in the military uh and and the warfare and and the polity if I may call it was this perhaps the easier section for you to write because I presume that obviously more accounts etc exist of that
00:34:41
Speaker
the political landscape as opposed to a lot of constant sensitivities and assumptions and specific clarity because it's not accounted as well. How did you really go about structuring the political conversations? This also means dealing with certain sensitivities and not getting into the particular incident that happens to the certain minister in the book.
00:35:08
Speaker
But it somehow stands very much at loggerheads without perception of Raya as a great schitzman, somebody who ruled with an iron hand, but also a warm heart for two decades. Yeah, I'm not sure what the question is exactly.
00:35:28
Speaker
I think I'll rephrase. What I wanted to ask you was that, A, was it easier for you to write about the political turmoil and, you know, military and the sort of discussions thereof? And the second question I think that I was alluding to was when you look at someone as an inspirational figure and the book is, you know, really in a sense, based homage to Raya,
00:35:58
Speaker
the incident with the minister which i'm not alluding to courtesy spoilers how does that sort of stand at like loggerheads in in how you know you want this figure to be perceived so those two questions i think is what i want
00:36:15
Speaker
I don't know, there's lots of ministers and lots of, I'm not even sure which part you're talking about, but I think I know, you're talking about the end of the book. There's a lot of things to be said about all those things. But let me say this, you see like that end part, I mean, that stuff from the oral tradition, that stuff you see in the movies, and when I use movies, by the way, people also have to understand that the movies that came out in the 1950s and 60s, those were written by cavits. You had to be a published,
00:36:44
Speaker
poet. Matlab, you had to have serious literary skill to even write a screenplay. And, you know, if you watch those movies, no, I mean, if there's any Telugu speakers, well, I won't speak Telugu. You know, if you watch those movies, I mean, you really have to know some good classical Telugu to really appreciate everything.
00:37:03
Speaker
So there were high level stuff. So anyway, the point is that a lot of that stuff comes from the oral tradition. And really the book was about bringing together that oral tradition. What does the Chai Wala say about Krishna Devaraya? And how does he know all that stuff about him, as opposed to what is, you know, the PhD from Harvard say about it?
00:37:23
Speaker
And they're both perspectives. And what does Neelah consciousness say in his history of South India? You know, all of that stuff, you have to put it all, what do the Portuguese say? All of it together. I wanted to see all of this in a totality of like what knowledge is, like how I, in a sense, how I know this person and share that with everyone. And the end, of course, you know, that's the humanity that's needed that. I mean, any time you're writing a book, you're telling a story, you know, and you have to have
00:37:51
Speaker
You know, it's just like a, I guess a scholar paper has an argument as they say, but you know, a story is a story. It's a narrative. And that's what I wanted to tell because that's what even good scholarship is. You have to tell a story. And this was the element that created the part of his humanity. And otherwise it would have been totally like, he's the greatest king ever. And like, it was perfect. You know, that was not going to work and it wasn't true. And there's a lot of other things I didn't get into. There are a lot of things we could talk about, but I'll just add one really important thing.
00:38:20
Speaker
because this might be kind of what you're getting at. And then I'll mention one story from my dear, lovely publisher, who I love. She got me to write all my books. She was like, okay, I think you should read anything this time. You should write a book and it should be a biography of Raya. And I was like, okay, tell me all the biographies I should read. What are the best ones? And she's like, I'll let you know. And then I asked her again because she hadn't responded. And then she was like, do one thing.
00:38:51
Speaker
go and watch the OJ Simpson Netflix series. And I was like, oh, okay. And so I watched it with my mom.
00:39:01
Speaker
And we loved it. It was so good. You know, 10 episodes, tight, everything working together. You're just like so into it. The narrative's excellent. The acting's good. The writing's good. Everything's good. And I watched it and I was like, I got you. And that's how I tried to write it. You know, episodic. I don't know how many, 15 chapters it has. So those are important. But now certain chapters, yes, were easier to write than others. One chapter that took me like months.
00:39:24
Speaker
and I even already studied it in my thesis, was basically like you're asking, the fundamental, and I'll just say it in plain and simple words, so let's just talk about it. You know, Raya is painted as the great Hindu king that stopped the onslaught of Islam. That is a fundamental trope that you will learn like, my parents learned it, it's still probably in most history books. Now, that's just too simple.
00:39:46
Speaker
and it doesn't give the correct full perspective at all. But I had to bring in a lot of scholarship, weigh things and just frame and phrase each word of those sentences in the right way. So I could say that in the most balanced way that I could critiquing not only the old colonial orientalist scholarship, but also current scholarship. I mean, like that, I don't like either. We need more centered
00:40:15
Speaker
So please read that chapter. I think it's chapter five. If you want to know, and I spent a lot of time on that chapter to dance through what could have been very sticky and you can read all the footnotes. That's the other thing. I didn't want any footnotes. I didn't want any number, you know, superscripts in the book at all. But I wanted every single footnote and thing that I would have put in like an academic book at University of Press, whatever.
Daily Life of Krishnadevaraya
00:40:44
Speaker
In the back of the book, and then we did that so sorry that I talked a lot, but I spoke a lot, but uh there it is
00:40:51
Speaker
No, I think that's a quiet, informative, and it does help us understand the process that you were dealing with while you were writing. I think all I would like to tell people is to go and read Raya because sometimes it seems as if by virtue of having an author on your podcast, you want to tell people
00:41:17
Speaker
that you should read the book and that's really never the case to me. Of course please and I think and any section that you would want to read I am not going to request for a particular part but any portion really that you want.
00:41:33
Speaker
So I love doing this with books just opening up to a random page, and no matter what it is, you have to read it. So here we go. I've opened a page 125. Those years after the Gajapati campaign were indeed a time of pleasure and repose. The court was bustling with scholars and poets. New construction projects were expanding the city limits. Merchants from around the world came and went. And the city of Vijenagraha was truly at the height of its glory. See, that was a great page to pick.
00:42:04
Speaker
After many years of battle, Krishnadevaraya finally had time to settle back into life at the capital. As Payas vividly describes, the king would wake before sunrise and massage his whole body with amber-colored sesame oil before gulping down half a liter of the same.
00:42:22
Speaker
Wearing but a tiny loincloth, he would exercise his arms by lifting great earthenware weights and practicing with the sword until all the soil he had just consumed was sweated out of his body. Next, he would spar with one of his wrestlers before mounting his horse and galloping over the plains until dawn. And then, after being bathed by a trusted branman, he would go to his private temple to offer his daily prayers.
00:42:48
Speaker
Finally, he would make his way to the meeting hall where he would discuss matters of state with trusted officers and city governors. The king adds to the lively picture with his own preferred schedule. And here, this is, see, part of the book is me just translating these great poems. This is the king writing about himself at dawn before the physicians ask, did you sleep well? A king should consult his Brahmin astrologers.
00:43:14
Speaker
After this, he should meet with his accountants to discuss state finances before assembling his ministers and lords. In the middle of the day, before training with wrestlers and masseuses, a king should chat with cooks, farmers, and hunters. And as the day turns, he should honor venerable yogis and righteous men before worshipping the gods. And then, after eating,
00:43:38
Speaker
A king should enjoy old stories told by poets before being entertained by his gesture. And in the evening, he should be with the dancers and the singers and in the night with his lover before a good night's rest.
00:43:57
Speaker
Oh, I got to read this classic last line. This is me now. It was a truly balanced day filled with activities encompassing the range of religious, political, social, and cultural aspects of court life. Certainly, clearly, the king enjoyed moving through various quarters of the palace and interacting with people of every station. For Krishna Devaraya, culture was not only great poems or works of art, it was a way of being.
00:44:30
Speaker
As the king, so the subjects. And so the single most important thing that Krishnadeva Raya did to promote the culture of his court was to embody within himself the exemplar of a cultured life. I think I can't think of a better section. Are you sure this was picked out by serendipity?
00:44:58
Speaker
Totally, dude. That's what I'm telling you about. I love just opening. I'll do it again for you if you want. It'll be just as good. I think let's do one more. All right, ready? Yes. 147. Another outcome of the battle was the capture of Salabat Khan, Captain General of the Adoshah's troops. Unlike his master, Salabat Khan had rallied his disheartened men and fought to the bitter end.
00:45:27
Speaker
As Nunes proudly describes, the Sultan and his select guard of 500 Portuguese renegades did such wonderful deeds with their terrible strokes, but alas, they all perished, and Salabat Khan, like a furious wolf amongst the sheep, was finally taken hostage.
00:45:45
Speaker
I mean, all of that is not even my poetic rendering. That is direct from the sources. Noteworthy is the mention of Portuguese renegades. Now, this is interesting. Men who had left the service of King Dom Manuel of Portugal and found employ at various Indian courts. These men were guns for hire with no allegiances to anyone but themselves.
00:46:07
Speaker
As we will soon see, another band of Portuguese mercenaries would prove indispensable to Krishnadevaraya and his siege efforts. You wanted me to keep going? What, one more page? The king stayed at the Bijabur camp till all the dead had been burned and the funerary honors had been paid. In the memory of the 16,000 souls who had perished in the battle, he gave much in alms to the local residents.
00:46:35
Speaker
and with these things done, he returned once again upon Raichur and pitched his camp as he had done before. On his return, Krishnadevaraya had a fortuitous encounter, both won Christovau di Figueroaido, a Portuguese nobleman, on his way to Vijayanagara to trade in horses. He was accompanied by a brigade of 20 Portuguese musketeers, whom the king took much pleasure in meeting.
00:47:02
Speaker
He was glad that Figuero and his men would witness the war and his great power. He ordered that he be given the fine new tents taken from the Aldochah's camp and had them lodged close to his own quarters. Christian de Araya seems to have greatly enjoyed Figuero's company and one day as they talked in the royal tent, Figuero asked if he could go and see the Moors under siege at the fort.
00:47:27
Speaker
Krishnadevaraya refused and was concerned for his new friend's safety, but figuratively, quickly replied, the whole business of the Portuguese is war. Letting me go would be the greatest favor that you could do upon me.
00:47:42
Speaker
And upon hearing these words, the king relented and sent a few men to accompany Figuero and his men the trench near the wall. As Nunith describes Figuero saw how fearlessly the Moors exposed themselves on the high fort walls. They moved about carefree because they had never faced a weapon that could reach far enough to harm them. With gusto, Figuero and his snipers found a place to hide and opened fire with their long distance high precision Portuguese muskets.
00:48:11
Speaker
They picked off many moors and the King's men found a welcome opportunity to approach the wall in safety. And soon enough, the soldiers roomed their work of chipping away at the masonry and dismantling the fort wall. The muskets the Portuguese carried were of rare quality, able to shoot from a greater distance and with far more accuracy than anyone in these parts had ever witnessed.
00:48:34
Speaker
They were most probably from the Indo-Portuguese tradition of matchlocks, a rather new but innovative amalgamation of Muslim cannon technology. It should have been Islamic there. Islamic cannon technology, and even Islamic is problematic. Anyway, Portuguese artillery knowledge and the masterful gun making engineers of Goa.
00:48:54
Speaker
It was no coincidence then that the Battle of Raichur was the first major conflict in the Indian interior in which European mercenaries participated and the first documented usage of firearms in the Deccan. Lovely. Thank you so much. That was so fun. That was probably the most fun interview ever done for this book.
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:49:19
Speaker
And I think it's definitely the most high energy interview that I have done. I truly enjoyed speaking to you, Srinivasan. Thank you for writing such a fascinating and riveting book, you know, because otherwise then these stories are lost forever and these people are lost to us forever while we're, you know, going about our lives.
00:49:43
Speaker
For everyone listening to this episode, Srinivas's book Raya is published by Juggernaut, available on Amazon, Flipkart, independent bookstores near you. So do grab a copy to learn more about one of the greatest things of India and one of the greatest leaders of all times. Thank you. Thank you, Srinivas.
00:50:12
Speaker
Do not forget to tune into us on Spotify, Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, Ghana, and HT Smartcuts.