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India Booked | The Baolis of India
88 Plays4 years ago
In this episode of India Booked, host Ayushi Mona speaks to Vikramjit Singh Rooprai, an educator, heritage activist and author. They discuss all thing Indian heritage, especially 'Baolis', or stepwells, of and around Delhi.
Vikramjit shares the brilliance behind physics and other natural factors involved in creation of a Baoli, and what really pushed him to write 'Delhi Heritage: Top 10 Baolis' (published by Niyogi Books), the research involved, his passion for Indian heritage sites, and much more. Tune in now!
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Transcript
Introduction to 'India Booked'
00:00:11
Speaker
I'm your host Ayushi Mona and you're listening to India Booked, a podcast where we lean into the idea of India through its literature and we speak to authors who bring this to life.
Vikramjit's Heritage Journey
00:00:27
Speaker
Vikramjit Singh Ruprai is the author of Delhi Heritage, Top 10 Baulis. For those of you who don't know, Baulis are step-paths.
00:00:35
Speaker
In October 2009, he started his journey with Delhi's heritage by visiting Rajon Ki Bali in Delhi. His fascination began there and it took him five years to reach a stage where he could write a book. The project is fascinating. In a time where we only look at large monuments,
00:00:57
Speaker
such as forts and complexes, bowleys or step wells are an important piece of Indian architecture and history that is not often discussed.
From IT to Heritage Activism
00:01:07
Speaker
Listen to this episode of India book with me, Ayushi Mona and my guests will come here to learn more about bowleys and the fascination that they bring to the Indian landscape of architectural heritage.
00:01:32
Speaker
I have with me Vikramjit Ruprai. Vikramjit Singh Ruprai is an educator, a heritage activist and author. He has led a very interesting life. So, he started as a freelance developer, went to work, performed multiple plants without any formal college degree per se, post which in 2009 he started researching on Delhi's heritage
00:01:56
Speaker
and left his job five years back to become a full-time activist. Vikram's journey is very easy and something that we don't often hear of in the mainstream. You know, as most authors tend to be either sad emissions or trying to hold on to their job while they write in post to their passion project. I'm sure people have listened to a lot of interesting things today. Welcome, Vikram. Thank you, Aayushi.
The Science of Baulis
00:02:24
Speaker
So, Vikram, I before, you know, diving into anything else, you know, book Delhi Heritage and top 10 Baulis, right? For a lay person, what is a Bauli?
00:02:37
Speaker
So Aishwarya, my book is about the steppe and the Baulis of the Delhi. And even when I started researching about this particular topic, I had no idea what a Bauli is. And when I saw the first Bauli in my life, all I saw was that there are a few steps and there is a water pond. So the first thing that came to my mind was, OK, they needed water and they had a water little
00:03:01
Speaker
below the ground level. So they made steps to it. But then as I got into it and I started doing my research for the purpose of the book, obviously I realized that Bali is not just a water pit. There is so much science, there is so much physics that gets into it.
00:03:16
Speaker
You know, I was able to recall many of the concepts that are studied in class five and six, the movement of sun, the position of that Bali on the planet, that it goes up to that level. So in layman terms, Bali is basically groundwater, which is at its level only just that we have created a very wide well and steps to reach that underground water level. That's the simplest definition that I could give.
00:03:44
Speaker
So are all Bauli's step-fels that, if I understand correctly, or can they be other forms of architectural heritage? For instance, are some of them used as complexes, as forts? What is the sort of purpose that they have served through history in our monuments? As far as Baulis are concerned, they were only used to fetch water.
00:04:08
Speaker
Now if it is inside a fort, all forts have bowleys, all villages have bowleys or wells. So if it is a small village, they would just create a well. But if it is a large village or it's a town, they would create one or multiple bowleys because more people need to access and for in case of a well, diameter is very small and not like if there are like 50, 60 people who are at
00:04:31
Speaker
that moment standing there to fetch water well becomes very tedious and difficult process to arrange water for everybody so Bali they made wider Bali's everybody can just walk down the steps fetch buckets take a bath do half their chores over there and just whatever water is required for drinking they would fetch that and come out so and actually water for drinking was not fetched right from that spot well so all
00:04:55
Speaker
Baulis when we talk about Delhi have attached well. Now this whole thing comes into picture. We have been using Baulis for different purposes. So one is just for fetching water that's the well part of the Bauli and the main tank part of the Bauli here which was used for bathing, washing and other chores where water is required. Other than that these many of these Baulis had rooms attached to them.
00:05:18
Speaker
Now these are underground structures. So the rooms that were made, the chambers that were made underground, they were actually, there was a temperature drop because of the moisture that was there in the ground. Now because of that, during harsh summers, people would come and take, you know, rest under these sheds and under these arches. And arches are also important because they would give strength to these walls.
00:05:41
Speaker
That's what they were doing. However, we also have an example of a Bali-like Red Fort where these arches, the rooms that were made on the side, were converted to a prison by the British and the three brave soldiers of Swachh and the post-Indian National Army, Chasagal, Shahnavas, Dhillo, Gurbak Singh Dhillo, Shahnavas, Husan, and Prem Shagal Ji. These generals were actually confined in the Red Fort Bali and that's when we had that slogan also,
00:06:09
Speaker
Seagal Dhillo Shah Nawaz with good very famous in 1945. So Baulnish had multiple roles to play.
00:06:17
Speaker
This is also fascinating and you know what is and of course you talk about that moment in 2009 you know when you went to check out a Bali and and then it really changed your life if I were to call it that and you've done so much.
A Spark at Rajon Ki Bauli
00:06:31
Speaker
Definitely because I the first Bali that I saw was Rajoki Bali which was in Mehrali archaeological which is in Mehrali archaeological park and when I went there it a beautiful structure all dried up
00:06:42
Speaker
And I went down all the way four storeys deep. So one storey is roughly 10 to 12 feet. So this actually these are these are slightly higher. So somewhere between 12 to 15 feet is the height of each level. So in a way, I was like for 50 to 60 feet underground, which is like a four storey building. And there was very little water over there. And as of today, this Bali is completely filled all the way up to the top can only get like on three or four steps. And then there is water.
00:07:11
Speaker
So this whole transition I've seen, but when I saw it for the first time, I was so fascinated. I kept going down, down, down, and I thought, okay, this must have been a water pond attack or something, but now it has dried up. And later I realized that people call it Rajoki Bauli, and people think that some king built it, so it's called Rajoki Bauli. No, it is not Rajaoki Bauli, it is Rajoki Bauli because it was of Raj mysteries, the masons.
00:07:37
Speaker
So people who are constructing these buildings and all they are called Raje or Raj mystery in the local language and they used to live inside. So this was more of their colony because it has so many arches, two levels and three levels they have arches and they have proper rooms. And the several families were living inside this small, small structure. You know, while you talk, I unfortunately, we can't experience this, right? While we talk, but I almost feel as if I am on the walk.
00:08:05
Speaker
and I'm walking fast and you're explaining this to me so it's really fascinating and I hope to anybody who's listening to this podcast that they get the sense because that's the sense that I get and then I think perhaps for me it's a little more personal
00:08:20
Speaker
because I grew up in Delhi and I lived very close to Nizamuddin and my school was in Lodi Garden. I studied at Siddharth and just at Rasta between Lodi Road to my house.
00:08:35
Speaker
used to be flush with monuments and I think that's one of the most wonderful things about living in Delhi. I don't want to live there but to me it is a city of monuments right and of course every city has its own architectural heritage right Bombay has its art deck of buildings you know but just the regal and and just a sort of
00:08:59
Speaker
impressive forward that you know these monuments inspired in somebody who's witnessing them is fabulous.
Exploring Delhi Monuments Online
00:09:09
Speaker
You have also a website Vikram called monumentsofdelhi.com would ask you to tell us a bit about it and in case any of you are listening to this podcast please check out monumentsofdelhi.com. If you could just tell a bit about the photography club and you know your work you know with heritage.
00:09:29
Speaker
So, MonumentsofDelhi.com was the first site that I created back in 2009 itself when I started my journey and my idea was to list all the monuments that we have in Delhi. Unfortunately, I have not been able to work on it properly and this is like one of my most incomplete projects, I would say. So far, I've only been able to put about 300-350 monuments on that and that also only the list.
00:09:56
Speaker
and with the location so if you go there you'll find some 350 monuments with their exact locations and names my idea was to put all 1300 monuments we have got I've got a list of 1300 monuments of Delhi but I have not been able to compile that list properly and put on it with photographs and history it's
00:10:13
Speaker
a time-consuming process beyond my calculation. I mean, I thought I'll be able to do it within a year or two or five. It has been 10 years now and I've not been able to finish it. Other than that, the one thing that took a lot of time was on which I spent more than a year. Just on that one page is a list of kinks that I have put on that website.
00:10:34
Speaker
So if you go to MonumentofDelhi.com, you have a menu tab which says rulers. Under the rulers, you get the kings that have ruled over Delhi. And to compile this list, because before 1500 BC, this was known as Khandapras and then the Pandavas came, they established Indrapras for which exactly who were the kings and what there is. This is again a debatable topic because some people consider the mythology, some people consider the history.
00:10:59
Speaker
So, I couldn't go too deep into that. However, when Delhi was established by Anandpal Tomer from where we have actual written history available and all the inscriptions and everything, from there I have tried to trace everyone from 736
00:11:14
Speaker
to 2020, where Mr. Ramnath Koval is the president of India. So after C. Rajabhupalachari, the seat moves to Dr. Rajendra Prasad. So I've continued with the presidents before, the governor generals, and all the 2022 Mughal emperors, whereas people only know the names of six Mughal emperors. And maybe seven, if you include Badu Shahzafar.
00:11:34
Speaker
People never talk about things like Farukshia, Rafael Darja, Rafael Dolan. So what exactly I did was I started Delhi Heritage Awareness Club where I wanted people to know about these and nobody was interested to raise their awareness about Delhi. So I changed the name, I started calling it Delhi Heritage Photography Club and I told people if you come with me, I'll show you nice sights where you can go and click pictures and you'll get lot of likes. That was when Facebook was catching up.
00:12:05
Speaker
So for those likes, everybody came in and today we have got about 25, 30,000 members. That's wonderful. Actually, you know, sorry for trying to jump in in the between, but I was actually had opened the website in parallel, you know, and I was just going through it. And I can see everyone from, say, Tomar Rajputs who made Delhi, like an admiral Tomar who made Delhi his capital.
00:12:33
Speaker
to a Kritavuddin Eber, to a Mohammed Winter Black, to a Dalat Khan Lodhi, and to a Shirdi. There's an entire list. It absolutely might be boggling till date to even see. And you've listed the presidents of independent India as well.
00:12:53
Speaker
And everyone from say the House of Windsor to the House of Hanover, so the Marquess of Lansdowne to the Earl of Elgin, Lord Curtis, and they're all right here. And it's just very fascinating and I feel like very enthused just looking at it.
Cultural Significance of Baulis
00:13:10
Speaker
I was wondering, Vikram, you are an IT consultant turned heritage activist, right? And how did that, I mean, of course, that switch happened due to the interest. But how has your own personal journey, say while writing the book, right? Or your knowledge of architecture or history been shaped?
00:13:34
Speaker
by what you do. I presume you read a lot about this and I mean of course you're so invested but really how did you sort of come to terms with perhaps other people in this arena who are more intellectual than and you know who are more academic let me call it that. Who are more academic and your approach is very hands-on to actually preserving and visiting heritage and mobilizing people.
00:14:02
Speaker
See, my entire journey right from my childhood has been like that. When I was in class six, I started learning computer programming. When I reached class 12th, I was actually developing software and selling them. So I never had to do graduation because I got a job after that, after 12th only.
00:14:17
Speaker
Though I tried to get into some more professional courses and all, but I got job on the basis of what I had learned between class 6 and 12, those six years. So during my job, I attempted graduation and post graduation, that's a different thing. But I was able to reach heights wherever I could, became, you know, Risi senior management position, was heading the research innovation division for a multinational, entire Asia Pacific was under me.
00:14:45
Speaker
And that's when I thought that what after this and at a point that became quite boring also. So I tried to develop a hobby which where I can invest some time. Heritage kind of stumbled I got just stumbled upon heritage and then I started reading this became one of those hobbies where I could have invested maximum time and I enjoyed that. The only thing was that the information that I needed was not available.
00:15:09
Speaker
So when someone told me, why don't you write a book? I was reading a lot. I purchased many English books. I started reading them and I was talking to people. And then I got associated with ecological survey of India, because when I started, there was only one group that was doing heritage walks in Delhi. There were no heritage walks. And this one group was mostly dealing with foreigners.
00:15:28
Speaker
So they told me that you can also get into this. And since I was already running my photography club, people were coming with me for heritage walks. ASI kind of supported me. Mr. KK Mohamad was the head of Delhi Circle back then. He gave me a lot of support, all the permissions, whatever I required. I used to submit a letter. He made sure that every permission is given to me quickly.
00:15:50
Speaker
As per the law and we could go and click on limits now that actually open some doors And then when I was when I used to come back and ask the ASI people certain questions They would usually put me in touch with some historian or someone that he could ask them. We don't have the answer
00:16:06
Speaker
So, similarly what happened once, ASI asked me to do a photo documentation of Qutub Minar for them. They needed photographs of entire Qutub complex, but in such a detail that their own photographer at that time was not able to give them the kind of stuff that they needed.
00:16:22
Speaker
So when I went there, Mr. Sohail Hashmi was sitting there and I was introduced to him in Qutb Aminar and he told me a lot of things and that's how I got associated with Sohail Sahab. He is one of the best historians that I have met along with Nara Neghukta Ma'am.
00:16:37
Speaker
who used to be the professor of history in Delhi University. Through Suheen Ashmi Sahib, I got introduced to Narani Guktam and then many, this entire network of historians. I used to sit with them. I used to come up with my questions. I would come up with the question like, why is this much portion of a different color and why this portion of different color? Give me proof of that. The list of kings. I remember I was sitting with Suheen Ashmi Sahib at his home.
00:17:00
Speaker
And I was discussing that I've got this list of kings, which I have to put on my website. And then he said, no, this list is not proper. So he pulled up some old Urdu book, and he showed me some information from there. There was this one story in that book, which mentioned of a king who was there only for a few days. So then I added that name also. Later, when I was doing my research on Baulis, Nyogi books came to me and said, OK, you want to publish your work? I said, yeah, I can do it on Baulis first. I want to do a top 10 series.
00:17:29
Speaker
And in case of Baulis, that would be easiest. I just need 2-3 months because I know the names of all the Baulis. 30-32 Baulis are there in Delhi. I know their names. I know their story. I know their location. And I just have to write about top 10. So 3 months, 4 months, or maybe 6 months, I'll finish my work.
00:17:46
Speaker
After six months, I realized that I couldn't even write about a single body because when you have to write in a book, you have to find that information from authentic sources and the sources have not available. And my information was all through blogs and Wikipedia and all this, which even I was not very much comfortable with. So I read more books. I consulted with more historians and I figured out that
00:18:10
Speaker
even then after then in almost two years fast and I couldn't find that information actually one and a half year later so what I did I started learning Urdu because I found out that the information that is required is available in Urdu books and which have never been translated books from 1800s 1900s and some of the ferments are available in Persian so I learned Urdu then I got a Persian dictionary to make myself comfortable with Persian so I could read those ferments because the script is same
00:18:37
Speaker
Then I purchased all those Urdu books then I got my hands on to those Persian certain for certain Persian documents in this process I also found a Japanese book there was some research done by University of Tokyo and during that time the head of UNESCO's culture wing in Delhi was a Japanese and I was good friends with her so she also helped me read some of those that Japanese text and she put me in touch with some other people who were able to read Japanese and they helped me and
00:19:04
Speaker
I got in touch with the deputy ambassador of Japan who was stationed in Kolkata. He was able to help me. So I got, you know, the moment you start walking in a direction, the way they say that, you know, nature kind of conspires to help you. Exactly that happened with me. I was struggling with languages and records in different languages and people just came forward to help me. So it took me complete five years to produce just a 170 page
00:19:33
Speaker
small micro book, I would say, with 10 bodies. But at least I can say that whatever information is available over there is authentic because the amount of research and hard work that has went into it. I eventually left my job and dedicated full time to my research. Side by side, I became a teacher because I needed bread and butter also. So I started teaching in few schools and continued with my research.
00:19:58
Speaker
but it's fascinating and you know I think what you said right that you know you once you start sort of walking on a path right doors open you meet people you learn things and and this journey really is about taking the first step and and it's very interesting how community and people around us really rise up to the occasion you know and
00:20:23
Speaker
I mean, of course, there's an element of getting to know and preserve India's culture and heritage, right? But these Bali's are also very interesting because they're water bodies, right? With modern water circulation systems. Maybe we live in a world where we're constantly
00:20:42
Speaker
discussing and talking about water shortages, what whatever is going to be on water and structures and there's so many of them. I was reading reviews of your book with them and there were people who said that I did not know that Arke Purim was Bali, you know. Yeah, I know. People, you know, when they come with me like you mentioned that you cross Lodi Garden for a long period. Okay. Lodi Garden has a Bali.
00:21:11
Speaker
That's what I'm saying. It's fascinating. So my book launch was an intact. And before my book launch, I was there for another session. No, not an intact. My book launch was in IIC, India International Center. And I was in IIC for another event. I was supposed to be on stage with the director of IIC. And the director and I, we were just chatting before the session.
00:21:37
Speaker
They had arranged tea for all the panellists in one corner and I said, Sir, where we are standing from here, I can see that spot where I know there is a Bali. But it is all buried now because the British Lady Willingdon, when she converted Kharpur to Lady Willingdon Park, she buried the Bali of that village. And we have records in the Urdu books, we have the records.
00:21:59
Speaker
In the English book, there is only one book from 1909 which has this mention because after 1912, they started covering it up, they started moving people out because now this whole area was supposed to be New Delhi. So the later records don't mention it, the earlier records mention it and we have the exact location also where it is. If India International Centre can make some effort and it is right next to your wall, I mean, I'm on first floor, I can even see that spot.
00:22:25
Speaker
So he said, yeah, he was quite interested. He said, okay, we will take it up and we'll see if we can bring it out and we can dig it up and restore it. We'll talk to the government. But then I couldn't follow up again and I don't think that was ever taken up.
00:22:42
Speaker
No, I understand. But I think the beauty of this is that even if you make one person aware, or you make 10 people aware, or you make 100 people aware, at some point, there's going to be an inflection point of someone who decides to do something about it. ASI, for example, has recently discovered a lot of Bali's, if I'm not mistaken.
00:23:04
Speaker
Just awareness, right? There is a lot of us who say, because there is a certain prominence it has in culture. People are like, oh, we saw Aamir Khan sit on the steps of the Aamir Khan. These are the little ways in which cultures
00:23:26
Speaker
keeps into our lives, you know. But really, to me, it's about seeing a heritage and being aware of it. And sometimes I like to joke about this. When I was in a previous professional role, I used to work at a bank. Before I got employed by them, I never noticed their ATMs. But the moment I started working, I would actually
00:23:51
Speaker
You know, because, you know, there's an affiliation. So I think while we live, Indian cities are so full of culture and heritage that we have become completely immune and blind to it because there's so much of it. I think it's a problem of plenty. It's a problem of these things being in disrepair. So you typically neglect these things because you've seen them for such a long period of time. You've also frozen up to these things.
00:24:19
Speaker
You know, like I said that the nature conspires to provide you the information that you seek. Let me give you two very interesting examples. Last, just before this lockdown, a month or two before the lockdown started, I was in Bhugneswar because now I'm a teacher trainer. I travel across India. I train teachers. I was in Bhugneswar and I had kept one extra day because I wanted to go to Kannark and Puri. I wanted to explore those temples and the person who was supposed to take me.
00:24:48
Speaker
he came to my hotel in the morning and he got off taxi and I said okay I thought you're going to bring a car he said no I thought you have a car I said I flew I flew from Delhi how do I would I have a car let's arrange for a taxi now and we couldn't arrange for the taxi so entire plan got jeopardized and then he said okay my mistake but let me take you to the museum
00:25:10
Speaker
I said, I'm not interested in the museum. I want to see those sculptures or monuments at their original location. But anyways, we went to the museum and we found out that the museum parking has a Bali in Bhuganeswar, Odisha. Even he was not aware. Nobody was aware. And it is a well maintained a monument with the board of the state archaeology board.
00:25:31
Speaker
everything is there just these are steps they said okay there are steps and there is some water accumulated big day said no dude this is a step well anyways we explored we did some photographs went to some tempers and all that was quite an interesting incident and another interesting incident happened with me in july 2019 when i was in bombay my books pre-launch was done in bombay july 2019 i clearly remember after
00:25:56
Speaker
talking about my book. And that's the first time even I saw my book because that's when it just came out of print and they brought it there. August, it was formally launched in Delhi. So there was one person over there who stood up later after the session and came to me. He said, you know, Bombay has a Bali. I said, OK, I can extend. I can I can change my travel plans. I would love to go and see. But it turned out that it is on the outskirts of Bombay going towards, I think, Thane or somewhere.
00:26:23
Speaker
I was not able to, it's a very small structure. So there are a few steps and then you reach the underground water channel. So it's in the outside, even Bombay has a Bali. So Bali's are everywhere. It's just that we don't, we just ignore them.
00:26:37
Speaker
And also because somehow we have this fascination with monuments being literally monumental, right? I think when you were writing this book and in this process you've learned so much and discovered so much, what perhaps is
00:27:00
Speaker
something that you would recommend as a reading recommendation to someone who wants to understand heritage better, whether it's Bali's fourth history, as a lay person, I think for us, a lot of us begin to hate history too early in life because we're part of it in a boring
Advice on Heritage Exploration
00:27:20
Speaker
way, right? So what is something that you recommend to, you know, people listening to get interested?
00:27:26
Speaker
Usually when someone asks me this question, there is no generic answer. I always kind of interview the person and tell what that person should read. Because when you say read history, go pick up this book by so and so person. That's where you are doing the damage. Maybe that person's writing doesn't fit the reader. So everybody has his or her own taste. Now, if I talk about, is there any particular area that fascinates you, any region that you would
00:27:54
Speaker
you may want to start reading from. Let's take your example Aayushi. I have always been very fascinated by the Jholas. I think there's a lot of, I mean, I am more familiar with northern history because things like Mughals etc. have bought Huskya Paratha there, you know, but I don't, I know nothing about the like heritage and architecture of South India besides temple architecture.
00:28:19
Speaker
Okay, and then in that case, I'll answer that only. Now, when you say about Chola dynasty, the region that they were not chola dynasty covers a large part of southern India and the extension of chola dynasty comes all the way touches Bengal or decide to rather
00:28:36
Speaker
And if you want to read this entire book, just remember in Southern Mostep, they are using Tamil, then comes Telugu, then comes Odia. So there are three languages, three primary language families with their multiple dialects. And we are talking about an era which goes from 300 BC to 1200 AD. It's a very long period.
00:28:58
Speaker
where in different forms this was there. Now if you need to read or understand this entire thing properly, the best would be to understand the language first. If you are not able to read the original language, so if you are studying the Tamil part of it, you have to have an understanding of Tamil language or the basics of it. Otherwise the translation can never do justice.
00:29:21
Speaker
that's my first point yes you just as a beginner or just as a hobbyist you can pick up any general book about history read it but keep in mind it will never give you a correct or a thorough picture how I can explain this better is in Andaman
00:29:37
Speaker
When tsunami came, there was very less loss of human life or animals in certain tribal areas of Andaman, where even from mainland India, we are not even communicating with Jarawat tribes and other tribes of northern Andaman, the Sentinel Islands and all these.
00:29:56
Speaker
There was very less damage of human life or animal life or even material. Why? Because they had specific words in their language pertaining to tsunami, which we did not have. So they were able to predict tsunami just by looking at the weather and the movement of sea that when sea started reciting, they were able to raise an alarm and we had no idea what to say. We just said, Pani Pichai Jara.
00:30:17
Speaker
Nothing beyond that. And when people had tsunamis coming, it's a Japanese word. Even a person like me had to go on a Google dictionary and find out what the hell is tsunami. What kind of magnitude does it contain? We had no idea. And people suffered. But Andaman did not suffer, as in the people that those tribal areas I'm talking about. Indira Point vanished for a long time. But the Northern Islands were safe just because of this one thing. So language plays a very important role.
00:30:44
Speaker
So, my own point is that if you want to read history in a true sense, please try to study the basics of the language of that area, of that period also if possible. If not, then try to pick up a book that has been translated at least 100, 200 or 300 years back.
00:31:01
Speaker
It is more closer to what you have today. And yes, the language would change, the whole narrative would change with time. And that is one reason when I started reading about Baulis, I picked up Tarike Firoshai, I picked up Babar Nama. I went to Rampur Raza library so I could get the original manuscript. They have got the Fesimail of the manuscript I was able to purchase from there. The oldest one that we have of Tarike Firoshai, of the Bernese records, of Babar's record, of Ivnevatuta's records.
00:31:27
Speaker
These kind of books, although the language at that time, I couldn't understand properly, but I took help from a lot of people, sat with them, debated with them and developed my narrative. So that's the difference between a hobbyist reader or thought of researcher. And for you, you have to find a middle path on your own wherever you get satisfied.
Podcast Conclusion
00:31:48
Speaker
I think it's been an absolutely fascinating conversation Vikram. I don't know where half an hour flew. I just initially started this conversation five minutes ago. I want to thank you for doing this. It's been a pleasure and an honor and I've learned so much and I will continue to learn so much because of this conversation that we had. Thank you Ayeshi. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. I mean I enjoyed it thoroughly.
00:32:16
Speaker
And for everyone listening into this podcast, guys, please go grab a copy of Vikram Jeet Singh Rupra's book. It is an amazing guide to understanding monuments. It not only has structural drawings, direction, it even has GPS coordinates.
00:32:35
Speaker
that you can perhaps go and use after the lockdown. But till then, read the book, learn more about Bali's capitals and the indigenous architecture of India.
00:32:48
Speaker
and how they've played a role in our history and our culture. I recommend this book to anybody, whether you're a student or whether you're a layperson who's never read anything about history, whether you're just someone who enjoys traveling. Vikram's book is out on Amazon. It's available in independent bookstores. Pick it up from wherever you get your books from and have a great time reading and exploring and learning.
00:33:22
Speaker
Do not forget to tune into us on Spotify, Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, Ghana, and HD Smartcuts.