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S2 E8 - Dan Herman
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On this episode of Session Share - The Coaches Podcast we have Dan Herman as our guest. Dan is a certified personal trainer and strength and conditioning coach and has been coaching athletes for over 15 years. So take a listen as we pick his brain on the best way to improve our players.
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Instagram: danhermanperformance
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YouTube: @sessionshare4375
X: @SessionShareNet
X: @CraigBirtwistle
Facebook: sessionshare.net
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:17
Craig Birtwistle
Hello and welcome to session, share the coaches podcast. My name's Craig Bertelsall and I'm excited to have Dan Herman as our guest this week. I've had the pleasure of knowing Dan as I coach his son, Alex, who is a very talented and aspiring goalkeeper. Dan has been a certified personal trainer and a strength and conditioning coach for athletes for over 15 years. So we're here today to pick his brain on the best way to improve the aspects of this player. How are you doing today, Dan?
00:00:45
Dan
I'm doing well, Coach. I hope you are.
00:00:48
Craig Birtwistle
living the dream mate as always.
Career Transition and Motivation
00:00:50
Craig Birtwistle
So Dan, tell me a little bit about your background. What got you interested in speed and agility and strength and conditioning?
00:00:55
Dan
Oh, I've had interest in in how the body moves for quite some time. um I've been doing this formally as a career for about a decade now. ah Dabbled in it a little bit before then. ah Prior to that time, I ah wore a suit for a living and and worked in the corporate space.
00:01:14
Dan
um But played sports in in high school, um just about every sport I could get my hands on, aside from proper football. um but But always had a ah passion for teaching people how to move better, how to be faster, how to be stronger, how to be more explosive. ah Majored in philosophy in in undergrad. So complete transition to to the strength and conditioning space. so
00:01:44
Craig Birtwistle
Both good as well though because obviously yeah maybe we'll we'll put that down to a future episode because psychology is a yeah definite big one to do and here's the thing, a lot of ah people who are motivated in their careers to get better at strength and conditioning need to have a good psyche as well in order to get through all that.
00:02:02
Dan
For sure. I agree with that. and And really, it comes down to being able to affect change on the things that you can tangibly control in this space, in this particular moment, and then leaving all the other ancillary stuff for um for another time, if at all, right?
00:02:20
Craig Birtwistle
yeah And I was interested in what you said there as well about how you were in the corporate world and you made the transition into the sports, agility, strength and conditioning. So what was your motivation for that?
00:02:35
Dan
Well, strangely enough, ah you know as life changes happen, I was um part of a a massive reduction in in force in the corporation that I was working for, which is a shame because I had great success there. um I felt like that was a sign from from you know the greater universe and like, okay, this is this is the opportunity to make that change. And so I did. And it's been it's been brilliant, really. um I've had the opportunity to work with amazing people at all different levels. um It's really been a fantastic experience.
Strength Training for Children
00:03:09
Craig Birtwistle
Fantastic. And when it comes to strength and conditioning training, and when do you feel this is the right time to introduce it to a player?
00:03:18
Dan
That's a great question. um If you ask 10 different people in my position, you you may get 10 different answers. I have had athletes, and and I'll resist using air quotes, but I probably should use air quotes, as young as eight or nine. The fact of the matter is that children at that age probably just need to be outside playing, whether it's rec football or basketball or just outside playing with their friends.
00:03:44
Dan
ah And each child physically develops differently, physically and emotionally develops differently. um Part of that would be tied to a more formal assessment of how they physically move. Do they have any, um any physical considerations? If I were to, if I were to ballpark it, I would say 11, 12, maybe.
00:04:07
Dan
But movement considerations need to need to really be thought about. um I don't necessarily believe a child that's 11 years old needs to be doing a barbell back squat, for instance.
00:04:18
Craig Birtwistle
Yeah, for me it's a case of Like, for example, i I'm not a strength and conditioning guy. I'm a football guy through and through, as you know. But I take my warmups extremely seriously, both from um a getting the body ready, but also getting the mindset ready. And the way I've always explained it to coaches, when like when you're six, seven, eight years of age, you can just get out the car and play. That's just how your body
Warm-ups and Athlete Preparation
00:04:44
Craig Birtwistle
operates. When you get to, say, our age, not so much.
00:04:48
Craig Birtwistle
ah Obviously, there's that spell in between as well. ah But the way I've always explained it to coaches, it's about creating good habits and good mental focus. So yes, I do a dynamic warm up when I'm coaching U9, for example, but it's mainly to get them in the mindset of this is what we do to get ready for a game. This is how we get ready for a game. And I just think it sets a good standard going through. Would you agree with that?
00:05:14
Dan
In fact, most athletes, um all athletes that that I bring into the space, we talk about it when we first meet. We start and we end effectively the same way. When I see an athlete and I have a few of them that I'm seeing later on this evening, footballers who my presumption is when they come in and they come into the space with me, that they're coming in from a day of predominantly sitting in school, probably a little tight and stiff. ah So to send them through something dynamic at first would probably be a little presumptuous. So I generally start, but I start and end the same way all the time. It's a little bit static at first on the floor, on the mat, just kind of loosening things up, getting accustomed to creating some space, building into the dynamic,
00:05:57
Dan
and then transitioning to to activation, say like banded work for instance. I'm a firm believer in in priming the body to your point, 100%. There are ah clubs out there, there are teams out there that that do not reinforce that idea. And I think that and potentially sets young athletes up for for some problems.
Coaching Challenges and Motivation Tactics
00:06:20
Craig Birtwistle
One thing I'm going to go on a bit of a tangent here that um hopefully you can stick with me and soak in the listeners, but um when it comes to creating those habits, when it comes to basically enforcing that. what What sort of pitfalls do you see that coaches go into when it comes to um like trying to get a player ready for practices and games?
00:06:44
Dan
I think, yeah you know, one of my least favorite things in the athletic space is using movement as punishment or if all else fails and I don't know what else to do, I'm going to go send them for a run. ah Not to say that that there's not a proper time or a place for that, um but I think that can be, it we sometimes fall back to what is familiar and I think sending them, and you know, it's funny, I kind of had it dogmarked to to touch on later, but There's a difference between conditioning for the purposes of your particular sport, in this case football, and just running for the sake of running because I don't know what else to give you. um I think that can probably be the biggest one that I've seen in my experience.
00:07:30
Craig Birtwistle
Yeah, I've gotten to a debate and I'm glad you brought that up on ah social media the other day where someone was saying goodbye lack of discipline. He'll send them for a run, and he'll do push-ups, he'll do this, that and the other for lack of discipline. And my argument was to him was the fact that one, fitness shouldn't be considered a punishment for a player. They should want to get fit. They should want to get better. If you get a chance to read about Frank Lampard, for example, his development, how he would do constant speed and agility drills, because he thought that's what was going to separate him from the next guy.
00:08:06
Craig Birtwistle
and what i was saying to this this person who was debating with back and forth it was actually a good debate because he wasn't disrespectful he wasn't rude or anything like that it was just a idea versus idea type deal and he was i said to him that one it shouldn't be a punishment to want to get fidda but two also that to increase your fitness, you need to be dedicating like three to four times a week at the same sort of activity in order to see an improvement. So unless this kid is late three to four times a week, unless he's disruptive three to four times a week, you're not gonna see any benefit from that. All you're gonna do is tire a player out with fatigue ahead of a game who's, let's say, maybe his mindset's not in it already, that's why he's always late.
00:08:53
Craig Birtwistle
So, um any any thoughts on any of that?
00:08:57
Dan
And just to to sort of dovetail into that, I think building a negative association as well between movement, ah say conditioning, for instance, that's probably easy to pick on, say conditioning and poor habits, for instance. Whereas I think the reverse is actually true. And and and you know one of the things that I appreciate most about my relationship with my kids, my kids my my athletes and the parents as well, because it's important that they understand what we're doing.
00:09:26
Dan
is creating the buy-in. Why are we doing what we're doing? um it It is easy to just throw a bunch of things at an athlete and say, these things will help you get better. But it's really important for them to understand why. Why do we do these movement patterns in this order? Why we why do we do a little bit of this and more of this?
00:09:48
Dan
um you know i Again, I think it's important to understand and and create that buy-in, but i I see it done so little, to be honest.
Building Buy-in and Movement Foundation
00:09:58
Craig Birtwistle
I agree that buying is crucial for both, as you say, the player and the parent, because even from my point of view, when I'm talking more about like the football side, the technique, the tactics, um as you know, like from being on one of my teams that I find communication really important because one, then if there is any comments being said at home, hopefully it's the same voice. um So yeah I do 100% agree that communication is very key in order to get that buying.
00:10:27
Craig Birtwistle
the buying then creates basically understanding and it's one of those things as well from my point of view when i say that about my parents my parents might not always agree but at least they know where i'm coming from then and what mindset i'm using that for
00:10:42
Dan
For sure. And I think your track record, and and again, it's not so much, you know, here's my CV, but but I think your track record in terms of your experience and and the players you've worked with in the past is sort of your calling card. The same can be said for me to a degree or another, having worked with, you know, high school athletes, of course, college athletes, professional athletes, you know, but at just about anyone in this space for the most part could say that. But you know I take a lot of pride in the fact that that my athletes, that that my parents of those athletes really understand the why of what we do and invest in it and understand that that the more investment they put in, the more they get in return. um And it's all about keeping them as anti-fragile or as bulletproof as they can be, because as you know, the footballing season is long, almost regardless of age, and they're asked to do a lot.
00:11:38
Dan
over the course of a season and beyond. And even when they do get downtime, it's not really much downtime. So it's important that they take the approach of the long game.
00:11:44
Craig Birtwistle
Love you.
00:11:48
Dan
i One of my favorite lines from a ah mentor who has been a strength and conditioning coach for a long, long time, more so track and field throwing. Someone had come up to him at one point and and asked him, how can I get really good, like world-class at throwing the discus?
00:12:04
Dan
And he said, well, that's simple. Throw the discus three times a week, lift weights three times a week for eight years. And and that's that's the rub. And I think that's sort of where we can get lost. A little bit is okay, more is probably better, but we need to do it for a long time, a little bit often over the long haul.
Break and Sponsorship
00:12:27
Craig Birtwistle
Fantastic stuff. damn We're going to take a short break, but when we come back, I'd love to talk a little bit more about um how you've built a foundation in athletes and have received success in that area.
00:13:21
Craig Birtwistle
As you've just heard, we at Session Share use Zencaster. And if you are interested in starting your own podcast, it really is that easy with Zencaster. So um look for the link in our description. If you join using that link, we get a little thank you out here at zencast ah at Session Share, as well as help you start your
Training Assessment and Frequency
00:13:41
Craig Birtwistle
journey.
00:13:41
Craig Birtwistle
so Well, welcome back and we're going to go into a bit more detail in Strengthening Conditioning. This is a really important part that can separate a good player and a great player. Dan, can you tell us a little bit about how you build a player's foundation?
00:13:57
Dan
i To me, Coach, I think it always starts with the assessment, starting with a proper foundation. How does the individual move? And again, we're going to assume for the basis of this discussion, regardless of age, regardless of gender, because all ages and and genders have ah various considerations that need to be taken into account. ah Starting with a proper foundation is really important. ah From there,
00:14:22
Dan
Each individual, for me, is put on a plan of progression. Each movement, and and we can get into how I see movement as it relates to footballers in a bit, but each movement can be progressed in terms of complexity, in terms of volume, in terms of intensity, um and and it can also be regressed as well, say coming off an injury, or if someone is, say, struggling in a particular movement pattern.
00:14:53
Dan
So that to me is really the the core of the foundation, which I think is a little bit redundant, but understanding where they're starting from and just building that base from there.
00:15:04
Craig Birtwistle
Fantastic. Um, that's, it's really tough though, like trying to find that base for, as you say, it's more about finding the individual, isn't it? Cause it's not like a blanket statement that we can start at this point. You've really got to analyze where every player is starting from. Right.
00:15:20
Dan
to To a point, absolutely. And and again, um one of my favorite phrases is is meeting you know meeting them where they are.
00:15:28
Craig Birtwistle
Hmm.
00:15:28
Dan
um There are a handful of fundamental movement patterns that I think all people, regardless of activity or athletic endeavor or age, should be able to do. And that is to push something, to pull something, to squat in some capacity, to hinge, because there's a difference between squatting and hinging, and to do some form of core work. I'm a fan of of loaded carries. Again, we can you know geek out on all that as much as we like. but um Understanding where someone is starting again regardless of age or background or ability level And being able to progress that I think is the singular most important thing um Now but the more frequently you train the more opportunity there is to um The more opportunity there is to progress but You know, i I again, I think having that understanding of where we're starting from is really important
00:16:23
Craig Birtwistle
You mentioned about like the amount. um How often, if a player is serious in improving this part of the game, should they realistically be doing it where they do enough but they're not suffering burnout, for example?
00:16:36
Dan
That'll depend on what else they have going on. If you're in season, I think once or twice a week is probably your sweet spot. And you know I tell my athletes all the time, I tell their parents all the time, it is not my job for them to wake up the next morning brutally sore. A little bit of discomfort is probably okay, a little bit. But it's always my intention to leave them the next day as good or better than I found them. Because if I see someone say tonight on a Wednesday, Thursday night, they need to go out and train on the field.
00:17:06
Dan
So I can't have them struggling because we did say too many deadlifts or too many squats or whatever the case may be. um So you can progress without beating someone into submission. A few times a week is great, off season. Three times a week is is fantastic. But again, find a full off season, and whatever whatever that means. Once a week is okay, twice a week is probably about as good as I can ask for.
Handling Muscle Soreness and Recovery
00:17:37
Craig Birtwistle
And you mentioned their doms, like the delayed onset of muscle soreness.
00:17:41
Dan
right
00:17:42
Craig Birtwistle
and Obviously, as you get older, they they appear a lot harder ah to get over. But my question to you is if a player um does speed and agility, for example, or strength and conditioning, whichever way you want to refer to it. Um, and they experienced those doms, the delayed onset of muscle soreness the next day. When should it be a recovery day? When should it be a rest day? Um, when should it just be a full throttle day and so on?
00:18:09
Dan
I think it's important to remember what delayed onset muscular soreness is. And that's the body's indication of we did a little bit too much. So the first thing is we need to learn from that so we can try not to replicate it. Uh, but sometimes it's just unavoidable. Um, I think at the first onset, or if you have a really tough training session, whether it's strength session or, or, um, conditioning,
00:18:34
Dan
it's It's really important to start those modalities right away, which means keep your hydration up, and I mean proper hydration, not just water, but but something with a little bit of salinity to it so we can hold onto that hydration, so we can replenish those muscles. Nutrition, keeping that nutrition up, ah especially yeah for a lot of the kids out there, their their nutrition is probably something of a work in progress.
00:18:59
Craig Birtwistle
questionable.
00:19:00
Dan
so So we talk a lot about adding things in versus say taking things out and replacing them. um There are other modalities. I mean, we can go into, I'm i'm here in in my workspace where there's like foam rollers and sticks and and all sorts of things. All of those things are are really great tools and all can be used as much as needed.
00:19:25
Dan
a proper mobility program. And when I say mobility, that is to say making sure that the joints have full range of motion, right? Muscle length is important to that, but making sure the joints can actually move, move the way they're, the way they're intended is, is really important, especially through the course of a long ruling season. um And that too, I would say is probably something that, that,
00:19:52
Dan
that we could all stand to to reinforce a little bit more to the to the athletes out there.
00:19:58
Craig Birtwistle
But what fundamental things should all footballers be doing on a regular basis and what areas do you see that are really neglected?
00:20:08
Dan
I would say, I'll go go back to what I said before, push, pull, hinge, squat, and and do some core work. Now, obviously, there are some things that, again, uma covers a lot of territory.
00:20:20
Dan
um What gets neglected? Accessory work, I would say for the most part. And when I say accessory work, I'm thinking um inside of the legs, adductors, outside of the leg, abductors, hip flexors, hamstrings, because generally we, the royal, we we focus on bigger movements. We focus on deadlifts, we focus on squats, we focus on on all these other core work.
00:20:48
Dan
But when we're talking about getting faster and being more performative, um I do think those other smaller muscle groups really get neglected. So for me, when I think of say core, for instance, core for me includes the core proper below the ribs and above the pelvis, but also includes your hip flexors, your adductors, to a lesser extent, your hamstrings, that's that's more separate.
00:21:11
Dan
um But I would say that the accessory work, but the proper accessory work, nobody cares that you can do bicep curls. Nobody cares. Um, if you want to do it and we have time to do it, fine, we'll do it. But the fact of the matter is we really need to bulletproof that whole lumbo pelvic hip complex.
00:21:31
Craig Birtwistle
And you mentioned earlier about the difference of like obviously training within pre-season as part of the regular season. When it comes to obviously legwork, like, and we're we're really concerned about fatigue, um especially like, say, for example, the age group I coach is like 16 and 17 year olds. They've just come off a massive high school season. They have very little downtime over Christmas. And then it's straight back into the thick of like travel soccer. That's at least how it is in America. It's a little different in Europe, I get that.
00:22:03
Craig Birtwistle
um So when it comes to that sort of thing, should we be avoiding certain exercises in the middle of the season that like when it comes to legs, hips, that sort of thing?
00:22:14
Dan
I'm going to say something controversial and I'm going to say no, because really when we're talking about creating additional soreness or negatively affecting your training on the next day, that to me, it could potentially be the movement pattern.
00:22:18
Craig Birtwistle
Okay.
00:22:29
Dan
So, so we don't want to, we don't want to lose sight of that, but also I would say it's almost exclusively going to be volume sets and reps and it's going to be intensity, which means the weight that you're using, right?
00:22:42
Dan
Um, I would almost always look at sets and reps far too often, especially in season. I feel what we're doing just way too much volume. Um, for most of the kids I have, some of them are still doing a little bit more volume right now because they haven't really gotten into the full bore of their season yet. Uh, somewhere about to kick off in, in earnest, um, they'll do.
00:23:05
Dan
a little bit more volume, but once the season's in, I'm a big fan of sets of five or less, especially for the lower body, right?
00:23:11
Craig Birtwistle
and
00:23:13
Dan
And if we're doing single leg stuff or or split stance work, no more than sets of five. No more than sets of five. So the volume is down. You can maintain strength, maybe even progress it a little bit, but the ability to to produce that soreness is is harder, right?
00:23:32
Dan
You really have to push in order to create soreness with that kind of volume.
00:23:40
Craig Birtwistle
And when you're talking about the sets of fives, is this um basically body weight sets or are they like with actual weights or varies?
00:23:41
Dan
Mm-hmm.
00:23:47
Dan
Can be, yeah, can't can be all of the above. um There is an idea, not to slide down too much of a rabbit hole, but there's an idea that was brought over by a gentleman from ah Russia decades ago called easy strength. And again, I won't and won't trouble listeners with all the details, but basically the plan is show up, never miss a rep, don't struggle, especially if you're in a particular sporting season, don't struggle.
00:24:16
Dan
It's greasing the groove. So we want to maintain strength. We want to maintain mobility without producing lactic acid that creates that soreness the day after. So in real world terms, appropriately weighted. It could be body weight. It could be lightweight.
00:24:35
Dan
relative, right? Two sets of five, three sets of three, five sets of two, and there's a way to progress and regress all of that, or one set of 10. If you're short on time, one set of 10 for legwork just to keep everything sharp and firing properly i is is, again, generally a good prescription.
00:24:57
Craig Birtwistle
Superb stuff done. We're just going to take one more short break and we'll be back in a few minutes.
00:25:17
Craig Birtwistle
Welcome back. We just spoke about the do's and don'ts of strength and conditioning. I'm sure you'll see all these like flash videos on social media and all these new found techniques that are basically just to get a few but are not effective and are frankly dangerous. In your opinion, should strength and conditioning involve a ball or should it be completely separate?
00:25:38
Dan
I never use a ball um in in my training with my athletes. And if I do, it is say as an implement, not to be included in in a playing type of way, but more so ball between the knees in order to focus on some additional core work, for instance, that would be my approach there. um I am a stay in your lane kind of.
00:26:03
Dan
kind of person, so I stay in in my capacity, and I leave the on-ball stuff to to the professionals who who know what they're doing there. um The athletes that I've had over the years have respected that, and I think it's a good way to separate, again, the strength and conditioning side from more of the tactical on-ball skill side.
00:26:24
Craig Birtwistle
For example, some of the coaches that we have listening to the show, um at best, they probably get two practices a week with their teams. Obviously, when you get to high level, you're talking like four at four practices a week. If you're talking youth level, you're probably getting two to three maximum a week. With that said, and like coaches only have about an hour and a half when it comes to that.
00:26:49
Craig Birtwistle
Do you see any benefit of the coach? And either answer is fine by me. During that hour and a half, should they be doing strength and conditioning as part of their hour and a half? If so, like, would you be comfortable with them doing it with a ball, for example, so there's more touches happening? Because I'm from the the model where as much touches on the ball as possible helps a player progress. But I do see the the advantageous of strength and conditioning are being done separately and I've always been accustomed to might having ah my players do that additionally away from the soccer field. What's your thought?
00:27:32
Dan
I'm inclined to agree with that. Generally for me, touches are the responsibility of the football coach and your own homework, to be honest. You know, I think the athletes should, you know, should always focus on, on getting touches in whenever they can. Um, as it relates to including strengths, the strength work, not so much, uh, during a traditional session, um, speed agility and agility and conditioning for sure.
00:28:00
Dan
and And I've done that in the past in my space with very targeted drills, not simply running to run. Footballers should be able to step out the door and and you know safely go for a run up to 30, 40, 45 minutes at a go. Easy, of course.
00:28:19
Dan
But then on the pitch, we can do various drills that are sport related without a ball um to really enhance their performance. So I i would generally say keep it you know keep it separate.
00:28:32
Craig Birtwistle
Yeah, because there's one thing that worries me about and the fact that a coach trying to do everything and they've got the right ideas, they've got the right thought process. But if you're not not like yourself, a qualified strength and conditioning trainer and you try and just do some of these things you might have saw online or so on, you might be causing more of a hindrance than anything. And that does worry me about with player safety, for example.
00:28:57
Dan
No, 100%. I think what you wind up with is an unfortunate amalgamation of all the things instead of true value from one particular thing.
Training Specificity and Personal Insights
00:29:11
Dan
And and I would take I would take that training with specificity. We talk about that in, in our vocation all the time, training with specificity matters a lot. Um, when someone comes in to my space, it's how could we get better at doing what it is that we are doing within the confines of what's available to us. And, and so that, so long as that's the focus, you know, you can, you can always find room to improve.
00:29:38
Craig Birtwistle
Fantastic stuff, Dan. um What we like to do here at Session Share is to end an episode. We always like to see the person behind the profession, if you will. So if you could tell us, what's your favorite moment in sports? It can be anything as a player, of fan, coach, or a parent.
00:29:56
Dan
Yeah, certainly proud of I was always proud of watching my boys ah play in the athletic space. um i've been I've been fortunate. um Alex's older brother played American football at the high school level for four years. um Alex, doing what Alex does. um As a fan, yeah ah you know a handful of years ago, still in the pandemic, Bayern Munich won six trophies in a year. No no one really talks about that.
00:30:24
Dan
Um, but that, that was pretty impressive. Um, you know, Germany winning the world cup, thanks to Mario Guzza. Um, I am an American football fan. You can't see what's behind the screen here, but I am an American football fan as well and a native of Philadelphia. And so, uh, um, the Philadelphia Eagles winning the Super Bowl in 17 was ah a bit of a big deal, but, uh, we, we just try to enjoy it all here.
00:30:52
Craig Birtwistle
And this will go out sadly after the Super Bowl, but I will wish you the best of luck for what will be this Sunday.
00:30:59
Dan
Absolutely.
00:31:00
Craig Birtwistle
So that's awesome. Well, thank you so much, Dan. This has ah been an absolute pleasure. And I really think our coaches, our listeners will find this extremely beneficial.
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:31:10
Craig Birtwistle
So Dan, um tell us, where can the listeners get in touch with you on your socials?
00:31:14
Dan
The best place to find me is Instagram. ah Dan Herman Performance, all one word. um I check DMs, I respond my Email's listed in there as well. You can drop me an email anytime. I respond to everything that comes through. I would certainly love to to talk with any of your listeners about any of the the more salient points that we touched on and drill down with any more specificity that they might need.
00:31:38
Craig Birtwistle
Fantastic. And what we'll do also, we do this all the time is in our podcast description, we'll leave Dan's details in there. So if you do want to reach out or you want to follow him on Instagram, please feel free. Well, that's about all the time we have for this episode of session, share the coaches podcast. Thank you very much, Dan Herman for joining me.
00:31:57
Dan
Thank you.
00:31:58
Craig Birtwistle
Be sure to get in touch across all our socials to offer your opinions on all that we've discussed today. You can find the social media platforms we use in our podcast description. This has been Session Share, The Coaches Podcast. Thank you for listening and thank you for coaching the beautiful game.