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The Sword of Kaigen Begins: Setting the Stage for an Epic Fantasy | Mythic Mirror Ep 33
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In this episode, we dive into the opening of M.L. Wang's The Sword of Kaigen—a stunning epic fantasy. We explore Wang's poetic prose style, the intricate worldbuilding woven through context rather than exposition and how that's challenging and satisfying. Explore with us the deeply layered emotional character arcs that unfold from the very first pages.
We discuss how Wang handles the collision between belief and truth—exploring how characters grapple with challenging the propaganda they've been raised to accept. What happens when the foundations of your world crumble? How do people respond when everything they thought they knew is questioned?
Whether you're a fantasy fan, a history enthusiast, or someone who loves character-driven narratives with emotional depth, this book delivers on every level. Join us as we unpack the opening chapters of The Sword of Kaigen and discover for ourselves why so many people love it.
No spoilers—just genuine book club discussion.
Join our bookclub on Fable! fable.co/club/mythic-mirror-fantasy-reads-with-mary-c-kehoe-526754238190
Join Mary's book launch for the early release of her fantasy novel Breaking Inlands — Imagine a society that thinks touching water will make you go mad, now imagine a young woman who can't ignore its call. kickstarter.com/projects/maryckehoe/breaking-inlands
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Transcript
Introduction to Mythic Mirror Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
What if everything you believe is a lie? Is the sword a weapon, a place, or a mind?
00:00:17
Speaker
Welcome to Mythic Mirror, the podcast for lovers of myth and fantasy who want to live magical and fulfilling lives. I'm your host, Mary C. Kehoe. And I'm your co-host, Carolina
Discussion on 'The Sword of Kaigen'
00:00:26
Speaker
Carter. Today we are talking about The Sword of Kaigen.
00:00:30
Speaker
We have just begun it, so we are not giving away any spoilers, and we invite you to read along with us. Carolina, what is your first impression? So it took me a couple chapters to get into it. um That is my fault.
00:00:45
Speaker
I just want to be very clear about that. I think because of the atmosphere and because of the fantasy element, my brain kept wanting to put it in the past. So when they would say things like cartoons or refrigerator, it would take me a minute to recalibrate.
00:01:03
Speaker
um You know when you're reading a book and something happens and all of a sudden you're not watching the movie in your head anymore? You're looking at words on a page? or that would be what i was just like, in it, and in the refrigerator, and i be like...
00:01:19
Speaker
And then I'd have to really think about things and rearrange things in my brain and then continue on. so But that being said, I'd say by chapter four, I'm completely immersed um in this cold, isolated Japan-inspired village that has some modern technology, but it's very clear that the rest of the world, well, I guess it's not very clear. It's becoming apparent that they may be behind, technologically speaking.
00:01:52
Speaker
um Not probably unlike North Korea, I would guess. I don't know. I've never been. Have you? What? it what Were you asking if I've been? Yeah.
00:02:03
Speaker
have you When you first begin a book, you're kind of finding those reference points. So I'm thinking, okay, the fantasy world kind of based loosely, you know, feeling like um a medieval Japan feeling or and then you know you meet the new kid and he says something about video games.
00:02:31
Speaker
And then I think that's the first line where you're like, whoa, wait, wait, what? And it's it's so interesting how she brings in world building without ever, like everything you learn is through context.
00:02:46
Speaker
You don't get any kind of little sentences of explanation that fill in the world for you. It's like as as if you're a baby learning about a world. It has to all be through context. So it's it's a little harder to be immersed, but then once you're immersed, it it feels more complete.
00:03:05
Speaker
that make sense? Yes. No, that makes total sense. And like I said, like by chapter four, I was in it. I didn't have any more confusion. I wasn't like, I was back. I can totally see this world.
00:03:17
Speaker
I mean, I'm watching the movie. Yeah. It starts out with a very small view of just, you know, the 14 year old boy in his school and you're learning about the culture just through how he gets to school. And then as soon as you meet the new kid,
00:03:33
Speaker
It, you know, widens a little bit more and then you get to see more of the mother's backstory and the world grows even larger and more complex. And I really like that. Just the, yeah, the technology bit did throw me for a moment.
00:03:49
Speaker
But once you realize what the world is, it makes sense within the world. Right, and I think I had the same reaction. I think the only other book I've read with magic in a modern world where there's electricity, i think, is Crescent City.
00:04:05
Speaker
um And I had the same problem where I was in it, and then they'd be like, she whipped out her cell phone, or whatever they call it, um in that book. And I'm like, no, No, she didn't.
00:04:18
Speaker
You know, I'm like, you have magic. Why aren't you just speaking to each other's minds? Why do you have to call someone? This shows that you and I do not read urban fantasy or else this wouldn't throw us at all.
00:04:30
Speaker
Now we do. Well, I wouldn't call this urban. I would still call it epic. Remote urban fantasy.
Character Analysis and Themes in 'The Sword of Kaigen'
00:04:36
Speaker
to I think ah the other thing that threw me as well, ah where you find yourself flinching.
00:04:43
Speaker
Again, i think she does a great job of introducing you to this world. You're learning about it through context where Mamoru is thinking about his mother and how much he cares about her opinion. And it's just like a side note in there, which shows you how normalized it is where It says even though he knew he shouldn't care about the opinion of a woman, he still cared about how his mother thought about him. And yeah.
00:05:08
Speaker
And so you're like, oh, okay. That's how it is With Masaki, not only are you learning about her warrior past that she's buried, you explore what it is to be a woman who is completely isolated in her own home and blamed for,
00:05:35
Speaker
a
00:05:38
Speaker
Now this, ah I don't feel like this is a spoiler because it comes pretty, you you learn about it right away and then you learn more about it as you go in the first like 10 chapters.
00:05:49
Speaker
But she has had two miscarriages and you go through that with her and and what has happens to her and how being isolated in her own home with men who are cruel and cold just she crumples inside of herself and then you get to see how this, how she re-blossoms and and comes back to life because of her sister-in-law moving into the house and that life and warmth that you talked about comes and it's it's just beautiful. So yes, it's a story about war, but it's also a story of of intimate emotions.
00:06:32
Speaker
And I would say a very feminine experience. Yeah, I would agree. When they are getting the lesson from Hibiki Sensei, and I'm sorry, I'm jumping around a little, but I would like to state this is all in the first little bit. This is not spoilers. This is just sort of world building that we're doing right now. He goes to school. and He has a teacher. that a spoiler?
00:06:54
Speaker
I don't think so. Mm-mm. um no It's a bit racist. They're talking about people of lesser blood and how obviously there wouldn't be as good a warriors. And it's it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to read.
00:07:09
Speaker
Right. Which I was reading a little bit about the author and she is a historian to begin with and reads mostly history rather than fantasy. And I think you can see this in her work where she uses this story to mirror things in the world, kind of like Game of Thrones, but she's not focusing on European history. And she's also purposefully putting things on their head.
00:07:37
Speaker
So when you get a little bit further and meet some of the other cultures, you find out that the European-like people are the ones that got colonized earlier.
00:07:49
Speaker
and I am. ah Carolina said before this, before we hit record, have a bad feeling about this book. And yes, I think we we both know a huge tragic thing is coming.
00:08:06
Speaker
And in history, it was well, huge tragic things have happened a lot in history. But the there's an event that she is mirroring where Japan ah committed genocide against Chinese people during World War two If I remember correctly, that is what she is mirroring on its head. So this time it's going to be the Japanese-esque culture that we are looking at, who are the main characters who are going to have a bad
00:08:40
Speaker
time and we're here for it yeah well oh speaking of being here for it I meant to start with this um my fellish my fellish my fellow squeams I love you This may not be the book for you.
00:08:57
Speaker
um It is a war story. There is plenty of blood. There is a trigger or warning at the beginning of the book. I'm doing pretty good with skipping when I need to sentences and words.
00:09:10
Speaker
I get the idea. Yeah, I would say definitely read this book. Don't listen to it. for skimming purposes. and Definitely don't drink an um energy drink on an empty stomach and then read this book.
00:09:27
Speaker
Oh no. Are you speaking from personal experience? No. Oh, it was just a thought I had. Oh, great. Okay. I also just sort of wanted to go over the characters we have so far because it's very helpful for me. I did this reading Crime and Punishment as well. um I have a little side chart of the characters.
00:09:52
Speaker
So, so far we have Matsuda, who I feel like we have followed the most. This is The young boy who's going to school. That's the clan name. It's Matsuda Mamoru and then Matsuda Misaki.
00:10:07
Speaker
And then what's his dad's name? Oh, Matsuda Mingai. It starts with a fatigue There is a glossary in the book. Oh, good. I was wondering if there was... i And unfortunately, readers, dear readers, ah this book is a ah only on Amazon. So we can't put it on our bookshop, nor can I read it on my new e-reader.
00:10:35
Speaker
So until I get the paperback, I am reading from my phone. That's hard to hear, Mary. That's hard to hear. Starting over with the characters. Mamoru. 14-year-old boy attending school.
00:10:46
Speaker
Warrior mindset. Trying to live up to family expectations. Then we have his mother Misaki who we learned very quickly, very early on that she was a warrior. Trained warrior.
00:10:59
Speaker
Studied elsewhere. Is one of the few people we've met so far who has any outside knowledge. um The other... Outsider is Kuang, who Mamoru meets at school.
00:11:15
Speaker
um Then we have Setsuko, which is Misaki's sister-in-law. So far, she is the only warmth in this whole story, right? I feel like, yes, it's interesting because when you're inside of Mamoru's head, you can feel his passion for life and his...
00:11:38
Speaker
And how much he loves his friends and, you know, running down the mountains that he can run up the mountain with his friends. But then when you see Mamoru from Masaki's point of view, she sees him and feels his his Gia from him that reminds her so much of her husband, who is.
00:11:58
Speaker
Ice. Yeah. Mentally, emotionally, just completely cold. And physically. Which am confused just knowing what little I know about. And I'm sure this all will be revealed. But Misaki, why is she?
00:12:14
Speaker
Why does she live there? Why does she choose to live there? And why is she married to this man? Well, it was an arranged marriage that she agreed to because it was either that or leave everything she knew in her home. and It was arranged? thought, didn't he bring her fish?
00:12:29
Speaker
What? Am I thinking of someone else? Her brother-in-law married the fisherwoman. So he, that's who brought her fish was because he, the, after she was married, he was going down and meeting with the, he was like, oh I'll do your chores down in, you know, any errands you need to run down the village. I'll do it for you. She was like, well that's very odd.
00:12:49
Speaker
And then he came back with tons of fish and none of the other things she'd asked for because he was just hanging out with the, With the woman was falling love with. So we have yet. Sorry. So we don't know why she married this old man. So and and that's another part of the world building that you get in drips is Masaki's backstory where you, you know, you find out just a little bit at a time of how she has these warrior skills and And from the beginning, you know that this is a part of her that she has buried, that her husband doesn't want her to talk about. her She's never revealed this anyone else.
00:13:32
Speaker
Right. So like I said, the tension is there right from the start.
World-Building and Emotional Depth in the Book
00:13:38
Speaker
Everything feels like a tinderbox and it's going to burn to the ground or shatter because it's all ice.
00:13:47
Speaker
So far, the things I love, because we've mentioned the the things that tripped us up in the very beginning, the things that I love is the world building, the depth of this world, the just as you're moving through it and you're in, you get a flashback from Masaaki's past and it feels so different and it, and it shift, it really feels like you're shifting around in different countries and each country has its own essence and feeling.
00:14:19
Speaker
And i love the depth of these characters, how quickly you feel
00:14:30
Speaker
the subtlety of these emotions that they have both the sun and both misaki and mamoru
00:14:40
Speaker
have so many layers of feeling going on and in the poetry it just the writing feels very poetic to me as you kind of sink deeper and get to know these characters more and more Yes, I absolutely agree. I want to say m anything I've mentioned so far, that that's that's my fault.
00:15:03
Speaker
The getting caught up is my fault. um I think my bad feeling that's building is because I already care very deeply about these characters and that to me is never a good sign.
00:15:20
Speaker
I mean, it's a war story, so you it's there's going to be war. And we've already gotten hints of what's to come. We've gotten some some foreshadowing has already happened.
00:15:34
Speaker
And I think even the back of the book, which I try not to remember when I'm reading the book because it gives things away. But I'm pretty sure even in the back of the book it gives... Gives that away that a an attack is imminent.
00:15:48
Speaker
But we don't know when. So we're just kind of right treading on this thin ice until it breaks. I keep using ice metaphors because both ah mosak ah yes both Masaki and Mamoru, their gia is... Well, Masaki can use ice and blood.
00:16:07
Speaker
and he uses... so it's water. Well, everyone in the village water. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Right. Which is, hang on, wrote this down. Oh, you just said it, Gia. Yeah. Gia, control of water. Sorry.
00:16:19
Speaker
When you get to see Misaki's backstory, there's people whose their Gia is using fire. Yes, except for it's not called, so they're all theonites, which means they're people who can control the elements. Gia is specifically control of water. Tadjaka is control of fire.
00:16:42
Speaker
Phonyakalu is control of the air. and then I couldn't figure out or find, but I know there's probably control of earth as well. Mm-hmm. Right. We haven't seen that yet. So is the control of air the girl who could do illusions?
00:16:59
Speaker
Gee, I wish I knew. We'll answer that question next time. yeah On Mythic Mirror. it is it It's like any real epic fantasy. It takes a little while to remember all of the terms. So usually I just keep reading and knowing, having full faith that the terms will clarify as I read.
00:17:24
Speaker
Yes, and i think it is very enriching. If you are able to have a physical copy, like to look in the glossary, because I think it helps it stick better in your brain.
00:17:35
Speaker
Yes, I will definitely be reading this from a physical copy because reading it from my phone is no fun. Hell, I'm sorry. um I have another topic, but I think we should do Discworld Delight because this is going to be hefty.
00:17:56
Speaker
Yeah. hair All guesses on YouTube and TikTok were for fiatimids. As in
00:18:09
Speaker
pyramids and was that correct just yeah oh yeah it's nailed it okay so i was gonna do the whole thing from um joseph and the amazing technicolor dream coat it was like potter had very few cares He was one of Egypt's millionaires, having made a fortune buying shares in pyramids. Ha ha ha ha ha.
00:18:43
Speaker
And are you going to promise me you'll let her go, said Vimes? A flame flickered near Vimes's face, a bright pool in the darkness as he lit a cigar. Now your grace, Vimes, why ever should I do that? But I am sure Ankh-Morpork will pay a lot for you.
00:19:00
Speaker
Ah, I thought so, said Vimes. He shook the match out, and the cigar end glowed for a moment. Sybil? Yes, Sam? Duck?
00:19:12
Speaker
launching into my thing of the atmosphere that we haven't talked about yet is this government propaganda where you are just learning about everything through the eyes of these
Storytelling and Cultural Identity in 'The Sword of Kaigen'
00:19:26
Speaker
characters. So truthfully, I'm not sure.
00:19:29
Speaker
You're not sure what's real and what's not, which is where you're meant to be as you find out with these characters. Again, not a spoiler. We're in the first four chapters. This is just setting the stage.
00:19:39
Speaker
Um,
00:19:45
Speaker
Mamoru is finding this out through his new classmate and his mom, Misaki, is talking to her sister-in-law and her friend about it very gently, very carefully, just saying, well, maybe not everything we are being told by our government is true.
00:20:01
Speaker
um And the most interesting quote that I wrote down, because her friend, Misaki's friend and sister-in-law are asking, like, why would they do this? And she talks about the Yamanca Jasiliwu, the keepers of history, um where she once questioned why would there be different stories for the same event? And the answer was, there are a million ways to tell the same story.
00:20:29
Speaker
Our job is to find the one list, oh, sorry. Okay, starting here. There are a million ways to tell the same story. Our job is to find the one the listener needs to hear.
00:20:41
Speaker
Not necessarily the one that makes them the happiest or the one that gives them the most information, but the one they need to hear to do what they need to do.
00:20:53
Speaker
And so I feel like that is really setting the stage for this book. um And, you know, obviously Mamoru gets very upset when his friend says that the warriors are just cannon fodder for the emperor.
00:21:08
Speaker
um it very much sounds like they're being told the story that needs to be told to keep them in this cycle of fishing, farming, and being warriors for this emperor.
00:21:23
Speaker
he that Geographically, they are the first line of defense. So it seems as if the Empire has fed them a story that they are the heroes of the last war and, you know, they choosing to Fight for the, you know, being being the first line of defense and fighting and dying for the empire is following in this glorious heroic tradition.
00:21:53
Speaker
And that they can beat off everything by themselves. They are invincible. been as interesting too to me because I feel like as Mamoru comes up against this questioning of his everything he's been told his instinct is just to fight he's angry and every time like it comes up he just he doesn't even want to think about it he doesn't want to question ji question it he just wants to beat up this kid who's told him this stuff that's all he wants and that will make everything right um which I think is... He just wants the words to stop.
00:22:31
Speaker
he Exactly. the And I think at one point he even referenced them as like references them as the poison had already settled in his body, where he feels poisoned, which I think is truly how it feels when you've been I think that is just like a ah true telltale sign of propaganda in general is when i think when people are able to change their mind is when they're presented with facts and they're able to think about it logically and move through it.
00:23:01
Speaker
But I think when you bump up against propaganda, you know, it's propaganda because the emotional recoil is so strong. um because i think maybe in your body you know you don't have the facts to refute it so you just but but it's so important to you i mean especially for him this is the foundation of his entire life so the kickback is going to be violent especially when propaganda is tied to
00:23:35
Speaker
your cultural heritage, what is already there. Because this modern retelling of history is now him him learning the truth of it.
00:23:49
Speaker
is is coloring and making him doubt his the very heart stories of his culture. He's heard from ah you know the cradle on.
00:24:01
Speaker
And where is the line? Where does the truth come come into play? How far back does the lie go? If I believe that this point in history has been rewritten, has my entire cultural ancestry been lie and that as i think when propaganda is so successful is when it ties into some you know a cultural heritage or storyline that already exists because then people will defend the lie because it's because in that they're defending their own heritage
00:24:35
Speaker
And truly stand to benefit from the lie as well, because right now they are a proud warrior race who are, they're better than everybody. Whereas if you take that away, then they're just living a hard life for no reason.
00:24:51
Speaker
and are indeed cannon fodder so in a strange way it benefits them and this is where I keep coming back to this line um but the story they need to hear to do what they need to do where it's just that this story is what they need just to live their life because it is a hard life and it is um you know Otherwise, you know they would just be moving to the cities and starting over, maybe at the bottom of the food chain or social life chain. They would just leave. There would be no line of defense.
00:25:30
Speaker
Whereas if with this propaganda, they are a proud warrior race, better than everyone else, and they have something to live for, to strive for, to be there for. Well, yes and no, I'd say. I mean, I think this makes it very clear cut and very clean and very obvious of like, this is who we are.
00:25:49
Speaker
But so then the question is, it's a question of human nature. can Can you still have that much sense of pride and ownership in the land and your past and where you're from if you don't think you're better than everyone else?
00:26:09
Speaker
if If others can have their, you know, the we have our our magic and this home, is this land is sacred. These mountains are sacred. Our ancestors have lived here for generations back, thousands of years. And that is enough for us to stand and fight and in guard this land.
00:26:34
Speaker
Even to the point of, and this is where i think it's better for the empire because They would stand and guard their mountain, their home, but that doesn't mean that they do it for the empire.
00:26:47
Speaker
But I think they wouldn't, I don't even think they would do it for their home. I think they'd be like, um we're out of here. So I think if you leave room for questioning, then the whole thing falls apart.
00:26:59
Speaker
That's why it has to be so controlled. No questions. This is what we do. This is who we are. Because if one person leaves...
00:27:09
Speaker
then why would anyone else stay just to be killed? I think you'll always have those people who will, you know, protect their mountain. But you wouldn't have an army.
00:27:22
Speaker
You might have... Well, they don't have an army now. Well, they have more of an army than if people were questioning. Yes, that's true. Yeah, and yeah, that's true.
00:27:33
Speaker
No, they definitely... that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and if they were a little more ah open, they could have more. You know, they could have Misaki.
00:27:46
Speaker
If they allowed her to be the warrior that she actually is. Yeah, dummies. easy I hope that intrigues you to read this book with us. I'm intrigued. I mean, I'm. It is very beautiful. It is so beautiful.
00:28:00
Speaker
It is intensely beautiful. who And it is an excellent example of epic fantasy if you are wanting to move from the more the stories that are very personal. Like I feel like One Dark Window and so the Shepard King duology yes, all of the fate of Blunder rested on the shoulders of these people, but it still felt very close and personal. And Blunder really only seems to be, you know, one village and and and the castle. You know, it's like a couple villages and the town. um
00:28:40
Speaker
So it that if you're moving from that to more of an epic scale of different countries, This one is a very great one to start with.
00:28:53
Speaker
You don't lose the intimacy of the characters with the epicness. And sometimes i think... with some epic fantasy I've read, the beginning feels a little impersonal. Like it takes a while to get to know these characters because there's so much going on right away. And this one, as with as with many other epic fantasies I've read also do do this very well, of bringing you in on the personal level of the main characters while building up the the epic stakes.
00:29:32
Speaker
So if you want a poetic, stunning, all-encompassing, Japanese-inspired, ice-cold, epic fantasy, read along with us. We'll all cry together.
00:29:47
Speaker
We don't know when. We don't know
Personal Updates and Experiences from the Hosts
00:29:49
Speaker
when. we will. And if you would like something lighter, you know, to break up this beautiful story, ah you can go read my short story and follow my Kickstarter because i will be launching my fantasy novel, Breaking Inlands, my debut in the end of this month.
00:30:08
Speaker
Very, very, very, very excited. You guys are going to love it. I am very excited. I'm um bringing together the last of the launch details now and it's Pretty exciting. Pretty, I'm a little nervous, but it's exciting.
00:30:23
Speaker
Don't be nervous. I just want to make sure I have, you know, it's just as everything's coming into place. You will. I was going to ask you. What sometimes helps me with anxiety is thinking about my spark of the week.
00:30:36
Speaker
So what was yours? ah My spark of the week would be, well, one one spark of the week, actually. I had invitations to my book launch party printed. So getting them actually in the mail.
00:30:50
Speaker
And they just look as beautiful as I wanted them to. Ding! So that would be a major spark of the week. I feel like I had another one, but I can't remember it right now.
00:31:02
Speaker
So how about you? I had the great pleasure of going to see Cat Power in concert last night. Her vocals are just so stunning. She's doing, i believe, a 20th anniversary tour of her album, The Greatest, um which I had on repeat when I was in college.
00:31:20
Speaker
And ah it was just, i truthfully, it's funny, I don't really enjoy concerts and I've been going a lot recently and really enjoying them but uh it's really hard to describe like if you listen to her voice on the album just know that it's that plus like 10 times even more amazing in person it's just very rich very raspy very full very unique and I just I just really deeply enjoyed being there
00:31:54
Speaker
Yeah, you've had a good music summer. And as a reminder, find us on Fable. We'll leave the link down below so you can join our book club and actually comment by chapter as we're reading. It's a fun kind of more interactive way to read the book together. I put my comments on there. Yay! And as always, we are so grateful to be spiraling through this universe with all of you.
00:32:19
Speaker
It's not always easy, but no good story ever is.